Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 40)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From September 2005,
October 2006, November 2006, December 2006, January 2007, and February
2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- If the package {carried into the TSBD
by Oswald} was no more than 27 inches long, it could not have
contained a disassembled Carcano rifle.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- And I've got news for you -- if you want to
take ALL of Wesley Frazier's and Linnie Mae Randle's testimony re. the
length of the package as absolute Gospel....you, as a CTer, have got a
problem too.....
Because even if that bag WAS 27 inches long, there's no way that it's
going to fit under the armpit of a 5-foot-9 man while he's got the
bottom of it "cupped in his right hand".*
I am exactly Oswald's height (5'9"), and I have performed the "armpit
test" on myself (and others I know have done this too, with the
measurements coming very close to mine) -- and I found that if I had
an item cupped in my right hand, any object that I am holding could be
a maximum of approx. 21.5 inches in order for that object to fit
snugly under my armpit.
Therefore, assuming Oswald didn't have monkey-like long arms (which he
did not), it's doubtful that Frazier (or Randle) could possibly be
correct about their precise "27-inch" bag-length estimate (which a lot
of CTers want to believe).
Now, yes, I realize that 27 inches is closer to my "test" results of
21.5 inches than it is to the actual length of the TSBD bag (which was
38 total inches). But my main point here is -- It's very likely that
Wes Frazier's bag-length guess was, indeed, incorrect.
* = And to believe Frazier was wrong about THAT portion of his
testimony (i.e., the bag being "cupped" in LHO's right palm) is not a
good position to take....because the bag found on the 6th Floor of the
Depository CORROBORATES Frazier's testimony in this regard, with a
RIGHT PALMPRINT being found on the CLOSED end of the bag.
Do conspiracists think that Frazier was "prepared in advance" by the
Warren Commission so that his story about the RIGHT PALMPRINT would
perfectly line up with the print on the 6th-Floor bag? Highly doubtful
(at best).
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7a460183ae4c6c41
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/909b5b194cab1cbe
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CTer -- Zapruder says he heard a shot, he saw the President slump
forward in his seat, then he heard as many as three or four more
shots.
DVP -- You'd better watch that WFAA-TV interview with Abraham Zapruder
again. Because you have mangled Mr. Z's statements, big-time.
Zapruder told Jay Watson and the Live WFAA audience that he heard TWO
OR THREE total shots...certainly NOT four or five as you are claiming.
Zapruder did say he "heard a shot" and then "the President slumped,
like this" {while demonstrating a slumping motion}.
But then Zapruder said: "Then I heard one or two more shots, I
couldn't tell if it was one or two, and I saw the President's head
practically open up".
As Zapruder says the words "open up", he's placing his right hand over
the front-right portion of his own head, indicating where he saw a
large wound (which is just exactly what we see on the Zapruder Film as
well).
Here's a still image from the WFAA interview, showing where Zapruder
placed the head wound.....
http://www.jfk-info.com/zapb.gif
In addition -- Mr. Zapruder didn't "change his story" between November
22 and the time he gave his Warren Commission testimony exactly eight
months (to the day) later.
He told the WC this.....
"I thought I heard two {gunshots}, it could be three, because to my
estimation I thought he {JFK} was hit on the second--I really don't
know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting
and as you see I got a little better all the time and this came up
again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I
never even heard a third shot." -- Abraham Zapruder; July 22, 1964
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/zapruder.htm
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Re. Hoover, Hosty, And The FBI......
DVP -- Hindsight, as they say, is invariably 20/20. So it's fairly
easy to bash the FBI now, in hindsight, and say they should have had a
tighter leash on this Oswald guy, who they KNEW was in Dallas and had
attempted to defect to Russia.
In fact, the FBI agent who was assigned to check up periodically on
Oswald -- James P. Hosty -- had visited Marina Oswald on November 1st,
just three weeks before the assassination.
I often wonder what the exact dialogue between Hosty and Marina
entailed during that November visit. Probably just the normal
questions, one of which was surely: 'Where is your husband currently
employed?'
Now, in hindsight, if that question WAS asked by Hosty on 11/1/1963,
and if Marina answered truthfully -- 'Lee recently got a job at the
Book Depository on Elm Street' -- it begs the question of....
Why in the hell wasn't Oswald being watched more closely on 11/22 by
the FBI, who must have known he was employed in a building that was
right along the motorcade route?
And -- Why weren't the SS and the DPD notified about Oswald and his
employment status in a tall building, located just yards from where
the President would be travelling practically at a standstill at the
corner of Elm and Houston Streets?
But, to be fair, unless the authorities actually assigned a man to
trail Oswald on November 22nd, it's doubtful that the assassination
could have been prevented, despite Fletcher Prouty's ultra-silly
notion that EVERY window could have been "covered" by a security man
(the minute it was opened!) throughout the length of the parade. Such
watertight protection is utterly impossible, and even JFK knew that
was true.
Kennedy even remarked to an aide the day before he was killed that if
an assassin was willing to risk his own life to murder the President,
such a determined killer could easily get into a high-rise building
with a gun, and there's nothing anyone could do about it.
Back to Hosty for a moment longer.....
I've always been of the opinion that Agent Hosty wasn't exactly the
sharpest tool in the FBI's toolshed. Now, I may be totally wrong when
I say such a not-so-nice thing about Hosty. Maybe he was a crackerjack
agent. I really don't know.
But whenever I see the guy interviewed on the many JFK documentaries,
I just get a negative impression of Mr. Hosty. I can't really put my
finger on exactly why this is so, either. It's just an "inkling" I
get.
Maybe it was Hosty's "I should have known!" comment on one particular
program, which seemed rather disingenuous when he uttered it.
Another point.....
Many CTers seem to feel that J. Edgar Hoover was one of the TOP
"conspirators" and after-the-fact "cover-uppers" with regard to hiding
any and all evidence of a JFK assassination conspiracy.
But I really feel that Hoover would have LOVED to have been able to
uncover and reveal a conspiracy in the case (particularly if it would
have exonerated the accused assassin named Oswald)....this due to the
fact that he knew his Bureau was going to take a beating when it was
discovered that the FBI knew of Lee Oswald's presence in Dallas for
many weeks prior to November 22nd.
And this info WAS revealed pretty quickly, via Jesse Curry's Live TV
statement -- "We {the DPD} did NOT know he was in Dallas....I
understand the FBI DID know he was in Dallas".
Now, I think we know that Mr. Hoover didn't like it when his
"Bureau" (his baby) was dragged through the mud (or so I've heard it
told). So, my question to conspiracy buffs who like to tout Hoover as
a MAIN PLOTTER of some kind is --- Instead of "plotting" to convict
Oswald as the sole assassin, why wouldn't Hoover be dying to CLEAR the
name of the man whom his Bureau SHOULD have been keeping better tabs
on before the assassination?
It seems to me, from J. Edgar's POV, being able to somehow clear
Oswald of the charges that were strangling him, would have taken the
pressure off of the FBI considerably, if not completely.
Anyway, that's just my $0.02 on the matter. (Well, maybe $0.03.) ;)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7835a5f11f2d5dcd
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CTer -- The government never has proven its case.
DVP -- In a single word....Bullshit!!
In a few more words -- The U.S. Government has proven its case
MULTIPLE TIMES OVER -- via the WC and the HSCA.**
** = The 11th-hour acoustics "evidence" notwithstanding, because
independent analysis of that proves it was a total farce and,
therefore, not reliable to "prove conspiracy". Which, in effect, takes
the HSCA back to its original pre-acoustics conclusion of "Just Oswald
By Himself From The TSBD".
The "Government" also proved its case in a courtroom (albeit in a mock
trial, true, but with REAL witnesses, a REAL judge, REAL lawyers, and
a REAL jury....a jury which said Lee Harvey Oswald was "Guilty" of
murdering JFK).
Let's have a look:
www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.html/?&reviewID=R1L4HTCKF0BNIU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku0uAnJKLxE
Shouldn't the above-referenced "proof" of Oswald's guilt (in
TRIPLICATE even***) be sufficient enough to at least shut the mouths
of people like Garrison, Stone, Marrs, etc., who not only insist that
a conspiracy existed in Dallas, but also insist that Oswald was
"totally, unequivocally, completely innocent of the assassination" (a
1988 quote directly from the loony lips of Jim Garrison)?
*** = And that "Triplicate" remark isn't even counting the Rockefeller
Commission or the Ramsey Panel or the ample LN-favoring testimony
provided at the ARRB hearings.
If all of these many official Government inquiries and panels and
commissions aren't enough "proof" of Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt (and
very, very likely his LONE guilt) in the JFK assassination....I'd like
somebody to tell me -- Why the hell not?!
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CTer -- How many times does a cop get murdered, and the suspect take
the time to eject cartridges from his gun in a crime? A lot?
Sometimes? Almost never? Never?
DVP -- Here's a fifth option -- Who cares? Oswald obviously did it,
per the multiple witnesses who saw him dump the shells. Now, those
witnesses (according to CT-Kooks) are either ALL scheming, patsy-
framing liars....or they ALL own the same "I See Oswald" prescription
eyeglasses, which made approximately ONE DOZEN different witnesses
I.D. the WRONG "Oswald" on Tenth Street and Patton Avenue on November
22, 1963.
Another "CT Motto" rears its hideous head here -- "Let's completely
ignore the vast evidence of Oswald's guilt in the Tippit murder, and,
instead, post inane and irrelevant questions re. the frequency of
times killers eject bullet shells after a murder."
The mere FACT that multiple people identified Oswald as Tippit's
killer shouldn't really matter -- so long as CTers can have their
silly conspiracies and spout meaningless inquiries. Right?
~shrugs~
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/1bdb7e56f0427853
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2317ac73008b3c8a
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CTer -- David, if they {the WC} did such a good job, then why was the
list of subsequent investigations so long?
DVP -- Mainly because of kooks like you. The Warren Commission should
have been the final chapter (and still is actually), but the
conspiracy clowns (like Robert Groden) wouldn't stop yapping about
"plots", etc., so we got additional (and needless) post-WC
investigations. (With the exact same results...save the HSCA's
acoustics nightmare.)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e2a229774508e859
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CTer -- Please name the two Secret Service agents on either front
side; and who was the other agent in the rear besides {Clint} Hill
(who we don't hear much about--if he was there in the first place)?
DVP -- You're mixed up, as usual. Clint Hill was an agent on the FRONT
SIDE of the SS car, not the "rear". (I.E., Hill was on one of the two
FRONT RUNNING BOARDS of "Queen Mary").
Here's the complete SS agent roster for the Queen Mary follow-up car
on 11/22/63 in Dallas:
RUNNING BOARDS:
Left side/Front -- Clint Hill
Right side/Front -- John Ready
Left side/Rear -- Bill "Tim" McIntyre
Right side/Rear -- Paul Landis
FRONT SEAT:
Sam Kinney (driver)
Emory Roberts
BACK SEAT:
Glen Bennett
George Hickey
JUMP SEATS:
Kennedy aides David Powers and Kenneth O'Donnell
Plus: Your comment -- "If he was there in the first place" -- is
hilarious, as you seem to actually be implying that there WEREN'T
agents on all four running boards in Dealey Plaza. When all you need
to do to confirm that there were agents there is to glance at the Phil
Willis photo or the James Altgens picture (or the Zapruder Film) to
confirm the number of agents riding in Queen Mary (two on each running
board).....
http://www3.baylor.edu/Library/BCPM/JFK/Photos/JFK%20Motorcade%202%20Large.jpg
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/altgens.jpg
Plus: The info about the agents' names can easily be found within many
books or within the testimony and/or reports of the agents themselves,
including the very first one I checked, Paul Landis' report:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/Sa-landi.htm
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CTer -- How do you explain Kennedy and Connally getting hit by the
same bullet, creating SEVEN wounds?
DVP -- Many people who are much more technically qualified than anyone
on this board, including you (quite obviously), have looked into the
"SBT" matter and determined it was quite possible.
Plus, when applying just half-a-dose of ordinary common sense when
looking at the overall evidence surrounding this case....coupled with
the complicated, virtually-impossible alternative to the SBT (i.e.,
three separate shots striking the two men, with two bullets
disappearing after they hit JFK's body, even though no bones were hit
to stop them in flight) -- then a reasonable person examining this
situation must come to the logical conclusion that the Single-Bullet
Theory is almost certainly a fact.
Lee Oswald's bullets were heavy FMJ bullets, designed to do just what
the SBT suggests -- i.e., slice through targets fairly cleanly, even
multiple targets/people. (Assuming that no hard, dense bones are
struck head-on en route, that is. So you don't need to retort with:
"Well, why didn't the same type bullet go 'cleanly' through JFK's head
too then?")
That "mystery" was also cleared up by John Lattimer years ago, when he
did his skull tests using WCC/MC bullets from the exact same Lot
Numbers as Oswald's. Not to mention the fact that similar tests had
already been conducted at the Army's Edgewood Arsensal facility, with
those tests, too, confirming that a Carcano bullet like Oswald's
ammunition can, and will, create damage to a skull very similar to the
head wounds sustained by JFK on 11/22/63.
When Dr. Lattimer did his tests a few years later, he was very
surprised that so much damage was being done to the test skulls. He
had thought, like CE399 and its "clean" path through two men, that a
MC bullet through the head would result in much less damage. But his
tests proved him wrong, and further buttressed the Single-Shooter
conclusion in the JFK case.
One expert said that such a WCC/MC/FMJ bullet could go clean through
five or six people (I forget the exact number, but it was more than
two) if conditions were right...i.e., not much bony substance was hit
en route -- just exactly like what happened with CE399 in Dallas.
The only HARD BONE that was struck by CE399 was Connally's wrist, and
the bullet, by that time, almost certainly struck the wrist while the
missile was travelling BACKWARD (base end hitting the wrist).
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e06a29392572c072
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/6f6c34dca27986d7
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4f18bcb78b94d9d8