[GROUP] - Forged Cancel - an Illegal Act !
ilias
illegally cancelled many messages that i've posted to this newsgroup.
This person has violated my legal rights.
I will not tolerate that.
Jamie Macleod
--
Composed with Newz Crawler 1.5 http://www.newzcrawler.com/
Gary Stark
Jamie Macleod wrote:
> I'll help pay for his defense fund. <G>
Sounds like a good deal. I'm in!
>
> > I have initialized an investigation to find out the person which has
> > illegally cancelled many messages that i've posted to this newsgroup.
> >
> > This person has violated my legal rights.
> >
> > I will not tolerate that.
>
> --
> Composed with Newz Crawler 1.5 http://www.newzcrawler.com/
--
g.
Gary Stark
gst...@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Willie Moore
It was probably your ISP!
"ilias" <use...@abeon.com> wrote in message
news:35a10d4c.03090...@posting.google.com...
Gary Stark
Willie Moore wrote:
And upheld everybody else's right to be troll-free!
Yippee!
> > I will not tolerate that.
Does he think we care?
Let me rephrase that ... does he believe we care? <g>
Walt R. Jesse
<bubam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I'll help pay for his defense fund. <G>
>> I have initialized an investigation to find out the person which has
>> illegally cancelled many messages that i've posted to this newsgroup.
>>
>> This person has violated my legal rights.
>>
>> I will not tolerate that.
This person has done a miserable job, I still find some... <g>
Geoff Schaller
I can see Jamie, Gary and Willie messgaes but if it wasn't for the appended
messages they were replying to, I wouldn't have known what they were on
about. Trim down your messages guys and the world will be completely free of
Ilias <g>
Turan Fettahoglu
> >
> > I will not tolerate that.
Der bürgerliche <Spitz->Name von Ilias ist doch hoffentlich nicht Peter
Putz, Postfach?
Ich dachte, den hätte man längst in sein Postfach gesperrt und den Schlüssel
weggeworfen!
Turan
ilias
The "Canceler" is Identified.
Here I ask him friendly, to stop his illegal actions immediately.
-
The "Canceler", an new kind of hero.
-
Some members of this newsgroup support the behaviour of their
invisible hero.
Many members silently watch.
None members protested for the protection of the free speach.
-
All this is a shame for the whole VO-Community.
-
Silence is Acceptance.
Democracy, Rules, Priorities.
-
ilias
-
On 2 Sep 2003 12:33:02 -0700, use...@abeon.com (ilias) wrote:
The "Canceler" is Identified.
ilias
[Repost2, after I sent a complain to abuse@<Canceler provider>]
-
On 2 Sep 2003 12:33:02 -0700, use...@abeon.com (ilias) wrote:
The "Canceler" is Identified.
ilias
[Repost2, after I sent a complain to abuse@<Canceler provider>]
-
On 2 Sep 2003 12:33:02 -0700, use...@abeon.com (ilias) wrote:
The "Canceler" is Identified.
ilias
[Repost2, after I sent a complain to abuse@<Canceler provider>]
[Repost3, preparing for further actions]
-
On 2 Sep 2003 12:33:02 -0700, use...@abeon.com (ilias) wrote:
The "Canceler" is Identified.
Ales Zevnik
> Some members of this newsgroup support the behaviour of their
> invisible hero.
> Many members silently watch.
Perhaps they have to work?
> None members protested for the protection of the free speach.
No need to, but they asked you to stop insulting.
> All this is a shame for the whole VO-Community.
Asking you to stop insulting?
> Silence is Acceptance.
WRONG!!! Silence is not bothering!
> Democracy, Rules, Priorities.
Zig heil! Are you serious???
If you are not satisfied with VO, change to other products!
It is that easy.
Greetings from Slovenia, Ales Zevnik
Geoff Schaller
Wrong. A great many people supported the action taken but I acknowledge
there will be those who don't. However, I think you should take it seriously
that a group of people can be moved to such things. It has never been done
before but I'll quite happily confirm that I will participate in such
actions in the future, including partitioning your ISP against you if you
can't act with accuracy and civility in this forum. To continue on the way
you did is only going to invite further action. It is in nobody's interest
to provoke it.
So, here is an invitation. Sign up and attend the Devcon in Germany in
October. Come and sit down over a beer or three (I will pay) and let us
discuss what gripes you and to see if we can reach different conclusions
together. Come and see what the VO community is about, meet some of the
gurus, see some of the applications and look into its future with 2.7 - it
is very bright! Come and see Rod and CULE first hand. If you like we can
probably even arrange for someone to speak for ADS. What do you think?
Geoff
ilias
I've not taken any legal actions against the Canceler.
I've even not mentioned his name in this group.
Will he fin the courage and strength to apologize?
-
see what the VO-community says about (illigal) censorship:
[VO26] - The Technical Regress!
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=eee6lv081ggf52b804ncr9vbmj16prn8ho%404ax.com
The german news (i don't think, that this topic will survive. It is
not feeded into usenet, so it's not distributed to other
news-servers).
news://news.visual-objects.de:119/ntjclv83sua9257rf...@4ax.com
-
Messages have survived, thanks Google:
But they are deleted from every Newsserver around the world.
Many of those newsservers keep backdated archives, too.
This makes me very sad.
My written word was deleted.
I treat this a an act of violence.
-
an (incomplete) list of topics in which my messages were deleted.
reading the headline should be enougth to understand why this
happened.
-
[FORTRESS] - Avoid usage! Loadstone is out of business!
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=ubinkvkojjvurrg3qb5ifrut0kmi2o3ab8%404ax.com
[ADS] - Extended Systems Inc. does not care about VO!
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=dif1lvos2s8qnmj6v6khn0h4s1e8c6bb6d%404ax.com
[VO26] - The Technical Regress!
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=eee6lv081ggf52b804ncr9vbmj16prn8ho%404ax.com
[VO27] - Developement Team
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=eee6lv081ggf52b804ncr9vbmj16prn8ho%404ax.com
[VO27] - What's new in 2.7 Features List..
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=9ltnjv08jofi839c26gfmplmo21h25i3q5%404ax.com
[VO27] - Has been completely re-compiled in Microsoft Visual Studio
7.1
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=4fnsjv0p726cajstb4ns91j6nufsd9bg38%404ax.com
[VO27] - The Visual Objects Repository Code
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=6b8vjvks1m0kbfeu43r4cma51s5v2gsemm%404ax.com
Gary Stark
I have temporarily suspended your killfiling.
ilias wrote:
> On 2 Sep 2003 12:33:02 -0700, use...@abeon.com (ilias) wrote:
>
> >I have initialized an investigation to find out the person which has
> >illegally cancelled many messages that i've posted to this newsgroup.
> >
> >This person has violated my legal rights.
> >
> >I will not tolerate that.
>
> I've not taken any legal actions against the Canceler.
I'm not sure that you even know who it is. I've seen no evidence that it's anyone within this group. Have you considered that your
ISP may now be reacting to your misbehaviour?
> Will he fin the courage and strength to apologize?
Will you find the courage and integrity to start to behave like a professional data processing technologist. One who listens,
understands, does not impose unreasonable expectations, and behaves in a socially responsible manner?
> see what the VO-community says about (illigal) censorship:
I think that the international VO community is represented by this newsgroup's members. I believe that they have little sympathy for
your position, and very few of us percieve you to be a victim.
> But they are deleted from every Newsserver around the world.
I believe that many of us feel that this is a good thing.
> This makes me very sad.
>
> My written word was deleted.
The question though is not if your written word was deleted, but what was the ultimate value of your written word?
Perhaps if you said less, but put more heart and consideration for your fellow man into your writings, you would not now be in this
position.
For now, while you may feel that it's sad that your words were deleted, many of us feel that little has been lost. it is up to you
now to put things right. Make amends.
Perhaps, if you can change, so too can other things.
Geoff Schaller
> Will he fin the courage and strength to apologize?
He might apologise but only if he didn't mean it. If the actions were
intended.....?
Then again, he might not apologise if he feels the actions warranted.
> But they are deleted from every Newsserver around the world.
> Many of those newsservers keep backdated archives, too.
> This makes me very sad.
Ok, but you brought this on yourself.
> My written word was deleted.
> I treat this a an act of violence.
This goes too far. Its statements like these that breed fear and hate. It
was nothing like an act of violence - speak to the victims of real acts of
violence and terror! In any event the action was stopped when it could have
been continued. In fact, I believe that someone had almost convinced your
ISP that you should be censured but again, they stopped short. We all
believe in second chances but I think the aim was to send you a message. I
hope you have the courage and grace to accept that and maybe apologise to us
for the trouble you have caused.
Geoff
ilias
>On 2 Sep 2003 12:33:02 -0700, use...@abeon.com (ilias) wrote:
>
>>I have initialized an investigation to find out the person which has
>>illegally cancelled many messages that i've posted to this newsgroup.
>>
>>This person has violated my legal rights.
>>
>>I will not tolerate that.
>
>I've not taken any legal actions against the Canceler.
>
>I've even not mentioned his name in this group.
>
>Will he fin the courage and strength to apologize?
Se yourself, if he found it:
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=bj7hkq%24huk%241%40reader10.wxs.nl
-
And one entity gives a clear statement:
Ilias - Official VOCA/SDT statement
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=bj83us%24ftsqm%241%40ID-22984.news.uni-berlin.de
-
Many people have not understood.
You can easily detect them.
They talk about a second chance for me.
They don't see the second chance for them.
The second chance for the VO-community.
-
I'm just writing the last two articles about VO.
-
Until i post them, you'll maybe think about the correlation of the
things that happened.
-
You have may noticed, that some users permanently annoyed me and the
group by postings many off-topic messages about my person. I was
called names, too. This behaviour seemed irrational.
This behaviour raises over those topics:
26 Aug 2003 - [FORTRESS] - Avoid usage! Loadstone is out of business!
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=ubinkvkojjvurrg3qb5ifrut0kmi2o3ab8%404ax.com
30 Aug 2003 - [ADS] - Extended Systems Inc. does not care about VO!
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=dif1lvos2s8qnmj6v6khn0h4s1e8c6bb6d%404ax.com
[here a try to involve my provider]
31 Aug 2003 - Your user misbehaving on Usenet newsgroups
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=3F52CC73.DF198AA1%40RedbacksWeb.com
1 Sep 2003 - [VO26] - The Technical Regress!
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=eee6lv081ggf52b804ncr9vbmj16prn8ho%404ax.com
2 Sep 2003 => the forged cancellation of my messages start here.
[here a GrafX announcement about VO2.7 ]
3 Sep 2003 - Visual Objects 2.7
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=bj52ld%24faaft%241%40ID-167060.news.uni-berlin.de
-
GrafX does not post anything about the Forged Cancel Acts.
-
You can derive your own conclusions.
I have to continue writing.
...
Gary Stark
> You can derive your own conclusions.
>
> I have to continue writing.
>
> ...
You have been extended the hand of friendship. It would appear that you are choosing to
reject these offers.
Please, either ask questions of a technical nature, or provide answers to questions of a
technical nature.
Your message is off-topic ans is outside the charter of this newsgroup
Let me assure you that your trolling behaviour, and your continued efforts at disruption is
not acceptable to the majority of people here, and it will not be tolerated.
Geoff Schaller
Can you please modify the format of your posts. The excessive use of blank
lines makes it quite difficult to read. And then sometimes you use a single
dash on its own line to separate comments and then all sorts of brackets at
others.
> GrafX does not post anything about the Forged Cancel Acts.
> You can derive your own conclusions.
Can I use this please as an example of erroneous and misleading posting. You
are asking us to draw a link here between silence on a subject and support
for it - in essence you are assigning your definition of guilt. This is
quite wrong. What about the 1000's of other silent people in this NG. Do
you automatically assume they too support something because they say
nothing? In fact, GrafXSift rarely enters into our various little debates
and rarely participates at all. Their silence is consistent with their
overall contribution to the ng and I don't think you are entitled to assume
anything from their continued silence.
>>They talk about a second chance for me.<<
>>They don't see the second chance for them<<
Well, forget that then, how about my offer to you? Can we meet in Nuremburg?
I will pay for the beer for as long as we can talk amicably about these and
other matters. There must be rational solutions available to rational
adults.
Geoff
ilias
To partially recreated the integrity of the usenet, i will repost the
Forged Canceled Messages again in a few days.
All the reposts (around 60 ) will start with "[REPOST]", thus you can
filter them using your newsreader settings.
Troll Watcher
ilias is well-known on this, and other, newsgroups as an unreliable
source of information. The purpose of his postings is usually to
mis-represent some personal hang-up he has as a valid topic for this newsgroup.
Please ensure you check the veracity of any information he posts. We also strongly
recommend that you do not reply to him. Apart from the encouragement it may provide
him,invariably you will receive some bad-mannered, illogical and spiteful responses
for your efforts.
Troll Watcher
Geoff Schaller
Please don't. It won't add anything to the debate and will just generate ill
will all over.
Geoff
"ilias" <use...@abeon.com> wrote in message
news:60qmlv4tr0879cn83...@4ax.com...
ilias
<geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote:
>"ilias" <use...@abeon.com> wrote in message
>news:60qmlv4tr0879cn83...@4ax.com...
>> On 2 Sep 2003 12:33:02 -0700, use...@abeon.com (ilias) wrote:
>>
>> >I have initialized an investigation to find out the person which has
>> >illegally cancelled many messages that i've posted to this newsgroup.
>> >
>> >This person has violated my legal rights.
>> >
>> >I will not tolerate that.
>>
>> To partially recreated the integrity of the usenet, i will repost the
>> Forged Canceled Messages again in a few days.
>>
>> All the reposts (around 60 ) will start with "[REPOST]", thus you can
>> filter them using your newsreader settings.
>>
>
>Ilias,
>
>Please don't. It won't add anything to the debate and will just generate ill
>will all over.
It adds my illegally deleted opinion again to the newsservers.
You, and any other member of this newsgroup, should respect and
support this.
Nothing will happen, if everyone just ignore the "[REPOST]" marked
messages.
Thank You!
-
>Geoff
Geoff Schaller
> It adds my illegally deleted opinion again to the newsservers.
> You, and any other member of this newsgroup, should respect and
> support this.
I don't, sorry, because it makes you guilty of many of the things you claim
to be so offended about. And I was offended by the nature of many of your
posts, I will make that plain. The point about your treatment has been made
and the treatment retracted. Reposting your messages now would amount to
Spam. I ask again, please don't. I don't need to restate all my reasons.
Now, you have not yet responded to my offer to meet.
Can we?
Geoff
Will Chapman
| treatment has been made and the treatment retracted. Reposting your
| messages now would amount to Spam. I ask again, please don't. I don't
| need to restate all my reasons.
|
Geoff
Excuse me for butting in, but it seems to me that the
anti-Ilias crowd is creating the spam with the
ridiculously childish Troll Watch.
Whether we liked the content or not, Ilias' posts
were illegally canaclled and as such I believe he
is perfectly entitled to repost.
And, I believe if someone unilaterally deleted some
of your posts you would feel the same...
--
Cheers....
Will Chapman
Troll Watcher
ilias
<geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote:
>So, here is an invitation. Sign up and attend the Devcon in Germany in
>October. Come and sit down over a beer or three (I will pay) and let us
[...]
???
who would guarantee for my security?
-
but seriously:
that's not an invitation.
an invitation is: payed ticket's, conference fees, residence costs,
...
>What do you think?
I think DevCon's are not reachable by the majority of the
VO-community.
I think DevCon's contain nearly nothing that could not be distributed
via internet to a wider audience.
And finally, I don't drink beer.
This event is not of interest to me.
>Geoff
Troll Watcher
Bob Arnold
> that's not an invitation.
>
> an invitation is: payed ticket's, conference fees, residence costs,
Your words have no meaning (or none that I will consider further).
Bob Arnold
ilias
I don't understand this reaction.
-
I may have a wrong translation about the word "invitation".
Or I may have a different mentality.
If i have a high interest at some persons presence, i invite him.
Then he becomes my guest.
-
In this case i want to make clear, that an invitation of the kind
"come to DevCon, and i'll spent the beer" is not that easy as written.
the cost of travelling, conference fees, resedence cost and finally
cost of time (preparation, event, recovering) summarize to a quite
huge amount.
That's why i wrote:
"I think DevCon's are not reachable by the majority of the
VO-community."
Some of them, to which the DevCon is not reachable, would go there,
if they had the possibility.
I would not go there, as DevCon (especially in the current status
around VO) does not make any sense.
That's why i wrote:
"I think DevCon's contain nearly nothing that could not be distributed
via internet to a wider audience."
The rest i wrote, should be clear:
"And finally, I don't drink beer." [in essence: i don't drink alcohol]
"This event is not of interest to me." [due to the summary of the
reasons given]
>
>Bob Arnold
>
Troll Watcher
Geoff Schaller
> that's not an invitation.
Yes it is, its my invitation to you. If you don't want to meet at the
conference, I am in Germany for a week and very near you for most of it.
Name your time and place.
> an invitation is: payed ticket's, conference fees, residence costs,
The German devcon run by Voca is probably VO's premiere annual event. Just
ask Michael Fisher or any of the ex CA Dev team. They supported it strongly
and believed in it. The dev team does also.All of us must undergo training
and this is a seriously good way to go about it.
> I think DevCon's are not reachable by the majority of the
> VO-community.
That's not what I asked you. I asked you to meet with me. So... how about
it?
> I think DevCon's contain nearly nothing that could not be distributed
> via internet to a wider audience.
So you must never have been to any conference then. For the benefit of
others reading, a conference is the ultra-best way to accelerate your
understanding of VO and coding in general. There are quite a range of
topics, going into C, VS, hand helds, Sybase, Oracle, SQL and all sorts of
webs stuff etc. You get to talk first hand with professionals and peers
alike. You will solve problems and learn techniques. This sort of thing
cannot be obtained from the net. The net is only like a book. Static
learning. If you want depth and concentrated availability, go to a
conference.
> And finally, I don't drink beer.
> This event is not of interest to me.
Impossible. A non-beer drinking German???? <g> But hey, I don't care. Drink
coke for all I care. The issue is to meet and discuss things as grownups,
not what we drink. You have some misplaced notions and falsehoods fed to you
by some very bitter and dissolutioned friends around you. You know who I
mean. If you really are interested in VO, Devcon is not to be missed -
especially when it is held so close to you. I will be driving from Arnhem to
Nuremburg so we pass by your town. If you are not going, we can stop on the
way past and have a chat. If you are not serious about VO then I will assume
that you will respond in the negative.
Regards,
Geoff
....no beer??? impossible <g>
Geoff Schaller
> Excuse me for butting in, but it seems to me that the
> anti-Ilias crowd is creating the spam with the
> ridiculously childish Troll Watch.
...maybe but the only answer is a moderated forum and I am working with
others to try to avoid that. Ilias continued abuse is making the argument
difficult.
> Whether we liked the content or not, Ilias' posts
> were illegally canaclled and as such I believe he
> is perfectly entitled to repost.
Nope, don't agree. And you use the word 'illegal' incorrectly because it has
been demonstrated that there is no real law covering use of this medium...
or at least none that is enforceable. It wasn't nice but it was not illegal
in the sense you use it. Whilst I did not participate in the original
"deletions" I will admit to drawing some pleasure at the occurrence and
solidly maintain that it was deserved. I did partition for its cessation,
along with others, and that happened. I don't let people smoke cigarettes in
my house. Is that an abuse of their freedom? Some say it is. Likewise, Ilias
was seriously abusing this forum and now we know why and with whom he is
associated. He is being used and manipulated but in the process, this forum
suffered under his misguided attacks and so someone withdrew his privilege
to post temporarily withdrawn. It was a demonstration of serious displeasure
and it had wide spread support. Yes, very wide spread support. I don't think
he is entitled to repost because most of that is going to be offensive. Why
do you want to be spammed a second time?
> And, I believe if someone unilaterally deleted some
> of your posts you would feel the same...
I don't believe I would put myself in that situation. However, if I had
received the amount of critical mail the Ilias received, I would have to
accept that my behaviour was wrong. I seem to remember some earlier
criticisms you made of me regarding some Brazilian friends. Did we not
respond and ultimately accede to the request? The trouble with Ilias is that
he did not stop. If he continues and can't be made invisible, we will move
to avoid him. That would be sad. Perhaps its time for VO to look for a more
modern forum anyway?
Geoff
Nick Friend
> ...... Likewise, Ilias
> was seriously abusing this forum and now we know why and with whom he is
> associated. He is being used and manipulated....
I've been making a huge effort not to get involved in this, but now
you've really got me curious <g>... ?????????????????
Nick
ilias
<geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote:
>That's not what I asked you. I asked you to meet with me. So... how about
>it?
I'm not interested in meeting you.
Troll Watcher
Gary Stark
I'll truly be interested to see if he meets with you.
If he does, then I would recognise that as an indication of his genuine interest
in VO.
But if he refuses, I think that will tell us so much more about his true
motivations.
And consider this: you're travelling how many thousands of miles, and extending
a hand of friendship in good faith? He has to travel, what, maybe one hundred?
And you're buying the coke/water/whatever?
As you said, the issue is not what to drink, but to meet and talk.
> > I think DevCon's contain nearly nothing that could not be distributed
> > via internet to a wider audience.
>
> So you must never have been to any conference then. For the benefit of
> others reading, a conference is the ultra-best way to accelerate your
> understanding of VO and coding in general. There are quite a range of
> topics, going into C, VS, hand helds, Sybase, Oracle, SQL and all sorts of
> webs stuff etc. You get to talk first hand with professionals and peers
> alike. You will solve problems and learn techniques. This sort of thing
And you've forgotten the most important aspect too: the best learning does not
happen during the sessions (as good as they invariably are) but it happens over
lunch or over dinner, or during a social break at the bar.
That's where the real conference value lies.
> cannot be obtained from the net. The net is only like a book. Static
> learning. If you want depth and concentrated availability, go to a
> conference.
Not to mention the hands-on experience that you can only get from seeing the
code of the experts!
Jean-Paul Bleau
Now I understand why he is like this !!!! <VBG>
Jean-Paul Bleau
www.FertiSoft.com
www.OrdinateursLaval.ca
www.Riviere-Rouge.ca
Jean-Paul Bleau
I'm gettting curious too !!! <g>
Jean-Paul Bleau
"Nick Friend" <nfr...@tekhneltda.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19c7c6f3c...@news.cis.dfn.de...
Mark L. Cooper
So many of us on this ng have put our initial reactions on hold. We've made
allowances for mis-communications. We've offered whatever help/advice we
can.
Now Geoff has offered to meet you in person. He is holding out the
proverbial olive branch, and you being of Greek extraction should understand
that phrase!
By publicly saying NO. GEOFF, I DO NOT WANT TO MEET WITH YOU IN MY HOMETOWN
you are spitting in Geoff's face (or worse)! You are validating everyone's
initial response to you and your manner of posting.
Do you realize how arrogant this sounds? Do you realize that you have
asserted you do not care about VO, learning VO, or anyone/anything else in
this NG? What the %^&* are you doing here in the first place?
I withdraw my offer to review any articles you may be writing. What ever you
are doing has NO relevance to me and MY goals. I probably don't have
anything to offer you anyway, you appear to know everything.
I feel I have made a few friends and acquaintances on this news group. If
ANY ONE on this ng is passing through Columbus Ohio, I will GLADLY rearrange
my schedule to meet with you, share a few beers, coffees, teas, whatever.
Chat about our experiences in the computer world. Etc.
Mark
--
Mark L. Cooper
Columbus, Ohio USA
Gary Stark
> I feel I have made a few friends and acquaintances on this news group. If
> ANY ONE on this ng is passing through Columbus Ohio, I will GLADLY rearrange
> my schedule to meet with you, share a few beers, coffees, teas, whatever.
> Chat about our experiences in the computer world. Etc.
>
That is exactly the spirit of this newsgroup.
There are many people throughout the world who know me, Geoff, Ginny, Brian,
Oskar, Meinhard, Grum, Paul, Peter, Phil, Robert, Lars-Eric, Tom, Uwe, etc etc
because of our various meetings with one another at Devcons, Technicons,
CA-Worlds, and so on.
These days, whenever one of us is in another's town, we think nothing of making
the call and meeting for lunch/dinner/coffee or whatever.
Sadly, Ilias has now shown us his true colours.
We now simply need to stop this nonsense. Everybody here needs to understand
that Ilias's flat refusal to see Geoff - when Geoff is passing through Ilias's
town - is the truest indication of Ilias'smisguided motivations.
The best thing that everyone can now do is to totally ignore each and every
posting that Ilias makes.
Paul De Bie
;-)
And "ignore" does mean: do not reply, not even with an autoresponder.
Paul
>
> The best thing that everyone can now do is to totally ignore each and
every
> posting that Ilias makes.
>
> g.
> Gary Stark
ilias
<tas3...@RedbacksWeb.com> wrote:
>Mark,
>
>
>> I feel I have made a few friends and acquaintances on this news group. If
>> ANY ONE on this ng is passing through Columbus Ohio, I will GLADLY rearrange
>> my schedule to meet with you, share a few beers, coffees, teas, whatever.
>> Chat about our experiences in the computer world. Etc.
>
>That is exactly the spirit of this newsgroup.
The spirit of this newsgroup is to support "Forged Cancel" of Messages
(see this current topic).
The spirit of this newsgroup is to support autoresponders from
"TrollW...@RedbacksWeb.com".
-
A few persons wrote against all this.
>There are many people throughout the world who know me, Geoff, Ginny, Brian,
>Oskar, Meinhard, Grum, Paul, Peter, Phil, Robert, Lars-Eric, Tom, Uwe, etc etc
>because of our various meetings with one another at Devcons, Technicons,
>CA-Worlds, and so on.
This sounds like the 'major-league' around VO?
>These days, whenever one of us is in another's town, we think nothing of making
>the call and meeting for lunch/dinner/coffee or whatever.
fine.
>Sadly, Ilias has now shown us his true colours.
sadly.
>We now simply need to stop this nonsense.
and first of all your childish "TrollWatcher", which is a shame for
the whole VO-community.
>Everybody here needs to understand
>that Ilias's flat refusal to see Geoff - when Geoff is passing through Ilias's
>town - is the truest indication of Ilias'smisguided motivations.
[1]
>The best thing that everyone can now do is to totally ignore each and every
>posting that Ilias makes.
hopefully you start with this.
-
[1]
If i would like to met some people personally, then i would choose
those people carefully.
Personal meeting is something special for me and it must fell the need
tho see a person.
I'm interested to meet many people from this newsgroup.
E.g. those which wrote for my right of free speach, especially those
which have the opposit opinion about what i said.
Those who simply work with VO and are angry about the situation around
it.
The duo "Schaller&Stark" is not on my list.
It is simply irrelevant to me.
-
Troll Watcher
Greg Garza
> These days, whenever one of us is in another's town, we think nothing
of making
> the call and meeting for lunch/dinner/coffee or whatever.
And let me add to this: if anyone here (trolls excluded) is ever
passing through the beautiful Texas hill country, I'd be honored to show
them around Austin. Great coffee houses, tea rooms, breweries,
wineries, Barbecue, steak, Mexican, Barbecue, steak, seafood, Barbecue,
steak, and also Barbecue and steak. We're sure to find something for
you.
Greg
Ray
I feel bound to say, I'm impressed.
I have been with Clipper/VO for many years and while not being an active
participant (due primarily to my realisation that I am not in the same
programming league as many of the "names" in the community) I have "lurked
for all of those years.
I have had problems with the way you respond to many of the people who ask
questions on this NG, and have consequently developed an ambivalent attitude
towards you. It probably has something to do with the fact that you are an
Australian and I am a South African. We don't mix well :-) Too arrogant.
Your offer is generous and a great example of the reason why VO is still
alive. It is not only the beauty and power of the language, but the
camaraderie of the "community"
This bloke is a joke and I believe the best way forward now is to TOTALLY
ignore him. Gary's automailer, while understandable will only continue this
annoyance.
By all means respond to any "newbie" with a warning, but enough is now
surely enough.
All power to you.
All the best
Ray Mayston
"Geoff Schaller" <geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote in message
news:Vdi7b.90789$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Will Chapman
| Did we not respond and ultimately accede to the request? The trouble
| with Ilias is that he did not stop. If he continues and can't be made
| invisible, we will move to avoid him.
Will the same rule apply to Gary who has been asked by
several people to stop posting these ridiculously childish
Troll Watch posts?
Regards..
Will
Stephane Hebert
Any chance I might sink my teeth into a barbecued steak ?? <g>
Steph
"Greg Garza" <gga...@ruddwisdom.com> wrote in message
news:bjksdd$kd5gb$1...@ID-134241.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mark L. Cooper
>
> We're sure to find something for
>you.
>
Do you think we could we find barbecue<g>?
Greg Garza
> Any chance I might sink my teeth into a barbecued steak ?? <g>
MAIS OUI!!! There's ALWAYS a chance for that!!!
And yes, when it comes to steak, it excites me and I tend to shout!
<BG>
Greg
Greg Garza
> Do you think we could we find barbecue<g>?
This is like Mecca for meat-lovers! <g>
So many great places.
Greg
Daniel Rouers
I'm tired of this stupid behaviour...
"Troll Watcher" <TrollW...@redbacksweb.com> a écrit dans le message news:
bjkr1a$kahcd$1...@ID-144790.news.uni-berlin.de...
Geoff Schaller
I am hoping we will all see total silence very soon.
"Will Chapman" <qbu...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:bjkv3m$aol9l$2...@ID-169860.news.uni-berlin.de...
Geoff Schaller
Its not a matter of being offended and I'm not. For anyone who does know me,
they will know that I genuinely like to meet and speak to people. That Ilias
does not to meet or be confronted on any level, even friendly, should
clearly spell out his attitude to anyone listening. No matter. I've made my
offer and said my piece. Its been rejected so I'll move on.
Geoff
(...and I hope I can meet you at a future US devcon maybe? I met so many
interesting US guys at the last one...)
Geoff Schaller
> I have had problems with the way you respond to many of the people who ask
> questions on this NG, and have consequently developed an ambivalent
attitude
Mostly I think its an interpretation. Whilst I appreciate you and some
others might think that, I would counter with this: why not take the most
innocent and inoffensive interpretation first? Sometimes I think people are
looking to be offended <g>. I never intend to be arrogant but sometimes I
can be curt (short)... and that is a function of available time. Its quite
time consuming trawling these pages....
> Your offer is generous and a great example of the reason why VO is still
Well I hope to inspire others to participate in the same way. I earn a good
living out of VO so I feel its my responsibility to contribute back. This
community got me to where I am so I owe it.
Geoff
Mark L. Cooper
I didn't think you would be offended. It came across as a genuine offer to
get together to try to come to an understanding. In my experience, there is
nothing like a face-to-face meet to get to know someone.
You do apprear to take a real interest in the problems people have on this
ng. I don't know where you find the time to respond to so many technical
questions. Not everyone agrees with your responses, but you put a lot of
effort into them (except for RTFM<g>).
>to people. That Ilias
> does not to meet or be confronted on any level, even friendly, should
> clearly spell out his attitude to anyone listening. No matter. I've made
my
> offer and said my piece. Its been rejected so I'll move on.
>
The only sane thing to do on your part.
> (...and I hope I can meet you at a future US devcon maybe? I met so many
> interesting US guys at the last one...)
>
I'm hoping there will be a devcon a little closer to home. Pittsburgh,
Cleveland, Indianapolis, Louisville. Columbus would be heaven! As I am not a
commercial developer it is difficult to justify the time and expense to
attend a devcon. I'm still working on justifying it one way or the other
though.
Is there anything in the pipeline for a midwest Devcon? I've read Columbus
is within a 5-8 hour drive of 80% of the US population. We finally have a
convention center. Plus tons of hotels set up for meetings. Hint-hint-hint.
What's a typical turnout for a devcon?
Geoff Schaller
The location of something like a Devcon is really dictated by the location
of the organiser. Simple logistics demand that unfortunately. So Oskar is
effectively LA based and that is where it is. But honestly, what is distance
in the US? Travel is cheap enough. There were guys there from Germany,
Holland, me from Oz, some Canadians and so on.
> Cleveland, Indianapolis, Louisville. Columbus would be heaven! As I am not
a
> commercial developer it is difficult to justify the time and expense to
> attend a devcon. I'm still working on justifying it one way or the other
Well I appreciate this. I talk only from the perspective of commercial
developers and to me, distance is the least obstacle. As to cost.. what is
your training budget (not you personally - the rhetorical 'you'). If you are
a hobbyist or part time user then you have an excuse. If you are a
professional developer then there is no excuse <g>.
Geoff
Ginny Caughey
Ohio is not close to LA, but advance airfare is generally very reasonable. I
bought tickets for the October PDC a month ago for under $200, and that's going
from the East Coast to LA.
--
Ginny
"Geoff Schaller" <geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote in message
news:NtZ7b.94684$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Mark L. Cooper
As to cost.. what is
> your training budget (not you personally - the rhetorical 'you').
There is no training budget. I'm an independent consultant, but my office at
this one client location is the computer/server room. I have my own desk.
They let me park my RV in their parking lot for months at a time while I'm
working there.
It's possible I could talk them into paying for training, but they pay me by
the hour. But other than for the pleasure of meeting you guys there is no
incentive. They're not asking me to hurry up. They're not complaining about
the bills I submit. When I'm on-site, I am the MIS department. I spec
purchases, changes to the system, etc. I'll supervise the installation of
the T1 here in a week or so.
I am on call 24/7/365 though. When the head honcho (the founder's daughter)
goes on vacation, they like to have me on-site. She is currently on
maternity leave and I'll be here until she comes back to work.
I really feel I'm one of the luckiest people in the computer industry with
my job. I have keys to all the buildings, can come and go as I please. I can
walk out to the RV in the parking lot and get my dogs and go for a walk any
time during the day. I can work 80 hours one week and 8 the next. And they
pay me!
If you are
> a hobbyist or part time user then you have an excuse. If you are a
I guess I would qualify as a part time user. The last couple of weeks I've
been playing with Linux and Samba, Squid, Sendmail, etc, with the goal of
building our own firewall. It is NOT the cheapest route, but it will be the
best for my client. I haven't done any VO coding in over a month, maybe 2,
but I still check this NG every day and have tried to help others when I
can.
> professional developer then there is no excuse <g>.
>
I agree. If you can use your tools in the best/most efficient way possibe,
you are doing what is best for your customer. They in turn will reward you
with proper compensation, whether it is money, flexible work hours, adapting
to your quirks, whatever.
Marshall Rhinehart
This would certainly be convenient for some of us. However, looking around
the room(s) at the last few US conferences, I would guess that Toronto might
be the only city in the northeast that could support a conference (draw
enough attendees), yet be within the driving distance your speaking.
I think Geoff and Ginny are correct, the flight ends up being a small part
of the overall cost of attendance. As is often stated here, it is a cost
worth paying.
Marshall
Stephane Hebert
If there's a conference in Toronto, I'll attend for sure.
Even better if it's in Montreal, which turns out to be a much pleasant place
<g>
Steph
"Marshall Rhinehart @adelphia.net>" <mrhp<remove> wrote in message
news:xp08b.142$Pd2.1...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Geoff Schaller
...but nor is Australia!
At least travelling from Ohio its an internal travel.... it could be done by
car if necessary. And as you say, there can be cheap fares. Its all relative
I guess. The British guys were horrifed at the thought of travelling 10
miles for a user group meeting. Some Aussies routinely travel more than 100
<g>.
Geoff
"Ginny Caughey" <ginny....@wasteworks.com> wrote in message
news:bjq0ih$lh8ho$1...@ID-144704.news.uni-berlin.de...
Geoff Schaller
"Stephane Hebert" <sgtp...@bootcamp.com> wrote in message
news:Y348b.21813$Q03....@fe09.atl2.webusenet.com...
Ginny Caughey
It would be cheaper to fly than to drive to LA from Ohio. For example, to drive
from the airport in Cleveland OH to LAX in LA, MapQuest calculates 2352.67 miles
and estimates the trip would take 38 hours 2 minutes to drive!
--
Ginny
"Geoff Schaller" <geo...@softwareXXobjectives.com.au> wrote in message
news:0G78b.95820$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Mark L. Cooper
I've been to the Grand Canyon, Salt Lake City, Vegas and the Hoover Dam,
Painted Desert, Pikes Peak, 4 Corners... but never quite made it to
California. Sounds like I missed a heck of an opportunity with the devcon.
Geoff mentioned there were people from all over the world in attendance, but
I was wondering how many VO'ers show up? 20? 200? 2000?
I went to a Fall ComDex in Vegas in the mid-eighties (I was a computer
dealer for a few years). Now that was a heck of a show.
Ginny Caughey
I'm sure you would have liked Devcon. I wasn't able to attend the one in LA this
year, but those who did go spoke highly of it. I'd guess the attendance was
closer to 20 than 200. We used to see 200ish in Germany and London and even
2000ish in the old days 10 years ago in New Orleans - still small compared to
the 20,000ish the Comdex shows used to draw - but's it's not the count that
matters. It's actually easier to meet people and interact with speakers at a
small conference.
--
Ginny
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bjr432$m34bq$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mark L. Cooper
I definately prefer quality, not quantity.
I grew up in a family business where we sold and repaired electric motors
and pumps. We belonged to an international trade organization (
http://www.easa.com ) that has yearly conventions that are so big and
require such large exhibit space it really limits the number of cities that
can host the convention.
But if we're talking 100 people or less and 4 or 5 meeting rooms it really
opens up the possibilities. So it just becomes a matter of who is willing to
put in the legwork to put on one of these things. I could host a devcon then
if I could guarantee good subject material and quality speakers. What's a
typical registration fee and conference length?
Columbus (Ohio, not Georgia of course) would IMHO be a better location than
Toronto. We're less than 12 hour drive from Atlanta, St Louis. I think we're
less than 8 from DC and Chicago. 2+ to Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Louisville,
Indy. I might have said this before, but IIRC we're within 500 miles of 80%
of the US population. If you're flying from LA, London, Oz, etc, it probably
doesn't make much difference whether you fly into DC, Chicago, or Columbus.
For the guys (and gals too<g>) my office is 15 minutes from Victorias Secret
headquarters and warehouse as is The Limited. The American Motorcycle
Association's Motorcycle Hall of Fame Museum (
http://www.ama-cycle.org/museum/ ) is 10 minutes down the road.
Are there people in the States that would attend a Mid-West DevCon?
Gary Stark
Simon Goodman wrote:
> Hey Geoff,
>
> Australia - 100 mile trip @ 50 mph = 2 hours
You've obviously not had the exhillarating experience of Sydney traffic.
I live in Sydney's east - 5 miles from downtown. I frequently need to attend
meetings in the northwest, which requires that I travel through the middle of the
city. Sydney's design and topology is such that this is unavoidable.
Too frequently, the 5 miles from my door to just the centre of the city takes me
an hour and a quarter.
And this usually is in the evening rush hour, travelling in the opposite
direction to the major traffic flows!
--
g.
Gary Stark
gst...@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Geoff Schaller
<g>
(...spoken like the tourist I am. I'd drive just to see the countryside <g>)
Geoff Schaller
Did that after Devcon. Took a week off and bored the shit out of my family
and business partners with daily travelogs. Fantastic part of the country.
> Geoff mentioned there were people from all over the world in attendance,
but
> I was wondering how many VO'ers show up? 20? 200? 2000?
38
(and whilst its disappointing, it was high value to those that attended -
ask them..)
Geoff Schaller
<g>
(apologies for the spelling - can't remember)
"Simon Goodman" <Si...@dev-soft.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6w4InFBRwXY$Ew...@dev-soft.demon.co.uk...
> Hey Geoff,
>
> Australia - 100 mile trip @ 50 mph = 2 hours
>
> UK - M25 - 10 Mile trip @ 2 mph = 5 hours <g>
>
> Simon.
>
Jean-Paul Bleau
Maybe we could organize one in Montreal, with the beers night at Chez
Paré....???
Jean-Paul Bleau
www.FertiSoft.com
www.OrdinateursLaval.ca
www.Riviere-Rouge.ca
"Stephane Hebert" <sgtp...@bootcamp.com> wrote in message
news:Y348b.21813$Q03....@fe09.atl2.webusenet.com...
Stephane Hebert
> Maybe we could organize one in Montreal, with the beers night at Chez
> Paré....???
Ok ! You organize the conferences and I'll take care of Paré <g>
Seriously, do you think we can put this toghether ?
Steph
Mark L. Cooper
>
> Did that after Devcon. Took a week off and bored the shit out of my family
> and business partners with daily travelogs. Fantastic part of the country.
You really have to see it in person. Photos, videos, and travelogs really
can't do it justice.
>
> 38
>
I'm amazed Oskar still organizes them with that kind of turnout.
> (and whilst its disappointing, it was high value to those that attended -
> ask them..)
>
No doubt. It's practically one on one.
Mark
Phil McGuinness
2 weeks ago I stayed unfortunately near Parramatta Road.
It took 50 minutes from Parramatta Road to Victoria Road because of about
30-40 traffic light changes to get through Rhodes.
Why would you live there !!!
Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
-------
"Gary Stark" <tas3...@RedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
news:3F61841B...@RedbacksWeb.com...
> Simon
>
> Simon Goodman wrote:
Gary Stark
Phil McGuinness wrote:
> Gary,
>
> 2 weeks ago I stayed unfortunately near Parramatta Road.
> It took 50 minutes from Parramatta Road to Victoria Road because of about
> 30-40 traffic light changes to get through Rhodes.
> Why would you live there !!!
At that end of the city ?
I certainly haven't got a clue.
But I couldn't live where you are because I need the facilities the the city
has to offer - a selection of great restaurants, somewhere I can play my
music, a good mechanic who truly understands the cars that I drive ....
Geoff Schaller
35-40 and its break-even. He really did get a good deal form the hotel and
for the price, I thought we got good value. If you get 40+ you can do things
comfortably. 60+ and it can make a profit.
> No doubt. It's practically one on one.
Absolutely. This is what I keep telling people!
Where else and how else can you get better training.
Geoff
Phil McGuinness
the city has to offer ]
And your not permitted to move here either... we try to stop this sort of
behaviour <G>
snip[ a selection of great restaurants, somewhere I can play my music, a
good mechanic who truly understands the cars that I drive ....]
I think these all of those things exist even in the smallest places.
I was in Kingcliffe the other week and they have great Jazz festival and I
am sure we could find a mechanic who likes music for you.
Gary Stark
> snip[ a selection of great restaurants, somewhere I can play my music, a
> good mechanic who truly understands the cars that I drive ....]
> I think these all of those things exist even in the smallest places.
I've lived in larger places where they don't exist. Then again, were we in
Italy, I know that we could easily satisfy my restaurant needs in even the
smallest villages.
> I was in Kingcliffe the other week and they have great Jazz festival and I
> am sure we could find a mechanic who likes music for you.
Er ... please just accept it when I say that what one person might call great
jazz, another might call R&B. And my musical tastes extend way beyond just
jazz, btw.
While I certainly keep an open mind, I do set very high standards for my
musicianship. Remember too that I do not look on music from a typical consumer
perspective: so far this year I've actually turned down four invitations to
join others in doing studio session recordings. I've also been asked to go
into a studio in a month, but only to record the session photographically. I
may do that ....
As to mechanics ... please remember the types of cars I choose to own. If the
peopel are not Italian born and factory trained, I really don't trust them to
touch my cars. I speak from bitter experience here.
Jean-Paul Bleau
You want to keep all the fun for you <G>...
We would need to define if we could get the 40 attendees needed to break
even... A lot of work to do just to know if we can get that much people in
Montreal.
Jean-Paul Bleau
"Stephane Hebert" <sgtp...@bootcamp.com> wrote in message
news:iMk8b.68087$l91....@fe12.atl2.webusenet.com...
Mark L. Cooper
> 35-40 and its break-even. He really did get a good deal form the hotel and
> for the price, I thought we got good value. If you get 40+ you can do
things
What is a typical price?
Mark L. Cooper
>
> This would certainly be convenient for some of us. However, looking
around
> the room(s) at the last few US conferences, I would guess that Toronto
might
> be the only city in the northeast that could support a conference (draw
> enough attendees), yet be within the driving distance your speaking.
I would go to Toronto for a conference.
By draw, do you mean have enough interesting attractions in addition to the
conference?
Or, are there just generally more conference attendees from Canada than from
the States?
I really have not kept up with air fares for years. My last several 'events'
have been dog shows so I travel by RV so I can take my critters with me. Was
in Bradford Ontario a couple of times. Harrisburg PA seveveral times,
Greeley Colorado once. I'm conditioned to think 'road trip', not planes.
Marshall Rhinehart
Mark,
> By draw, do you mean have enough interesting attractions in addition to
the
> conference?
> Or, are there just generally more conference attendees from Canada than
from
> the States?
>
As much as I wish it weren't the case, I'm not sure you could find enough
support to have two conferences in North America, per year. The numbers for
the California conference have been mentioned, and doing something on the
east coast, in my opinion, would just cut that number in half. (Unless you
had a number of different speakers, with different topics, but I'm not sure
that's entirely possible.)
When VO was introduced, I drove ten minutes, to sit with about 30 people, as
our monthly Clipper meeting saw an early version of VO. The ten minute
drive is now a ten hour plane trip (including layovers) to meet with about
the same number of people. Obviously I'm hoping 2.7, and subsequently 3.0,
reverse this trend.
At CA-World in Orlando, the announcement of the change from CA to Graphx was
made. In the long run this was probably in the best interest of the user
base. In the short run, however, you had attendees who were not offered the
classes they were told would be there. Members of this group did their best
to put on presentations, and they should be commended for their effort. But
if you were an attendee who had lobbied his boss to send him to Orlando,
because presentation X, Y, or Z would be made, you had to return to work the
following Monday, and explain there was a slight change in plan, and no, you
didn't attend the class you were sent to attend. (Not my situation, but more
than a few that I know of.)
While this is now water under the bridge, I think it should be considered
when trying to understand why there were so few U.S. attendees in California
(clearly this is not the only reason). As I've said elsewhere, Oskar did a
great job with 'his' conference. All of classes were first rate, and small
details (food and drink between sessions, CD available during the
conference, etc.) made it very enjoyable. If he chooses to do it again, I
would attend.
Marshall
Gary Stark
> I really have not kept up with air fares for years. My last several 'events'
> have been dog shows so I travel by RV so I can take my critters with me. Was
> in Bradford Ontario a couple of times. Harrisburg PA seveveral times,
> Greeley Colorado once. I'm conditioned to think 'road trip', not planes.
Not to mention "Best In Show"
<g>
Gary Stark
> At CA-World in Orlando, the announcement of the change from CA to Graphx was
> made. In the long run this was probably in the best interest of the user
> base. In the short run, however, you had attendees who were not offered the
> classes they were told would be there. Members of this group did their best
Methinks you're a tad confused.
In Orlando 2001 there were no promises of any technical content, nor were there
any such promises broken.
CA made the very big mistake of turning CA-World into a sales and bs-fest, and
every single one of the UGs complained and protested to senior CA management.
Attendances dropped significantly, and the "conference" was largely viewed by
all (including CA management) as a dismal failure.
In Orlando 2002 there was a promise of a return to technical content, and
indeed, that content was delivered. while the number of sessions was not up to
what had been delivered in years prior to 2001, the promised sessions were
given, including VO content delivered beyond the standard hours offered for the
conference.
In addition, at the CARE conference that preceded CA-World 2002, the results of
some ongoing negotiations between GrafxSoft and CA were announced, those being
the transfer of the code base for VO to GrafxSoft to enable its ongoing
development rather than its death by neglect had it remained with CA.
> to put on presentations, and they should be commended for their effort. But
> if you were an attendee who had lobbied his boss to send him to Orlando,
> because presentation X, Y, or Z would be made, you had to return to work the
> following Monday, and explain there was a slight change in plan, and no, you
This is the first I've heard of this sort of thing, and I was at both of these
events. In 2001 there were no promises of any technical sessions made, and
therefore none of those promises could be broken. In 2002 there were certainly
promises made, and to my knowledge and recollection, those promises were
delivered upon.
> While this is now water under the bridge, I think it should be considered
> when trying to understand why there were so few U.S. attendees in California
> (clearly this is not the only reason).
Given that Oskar, as the organiser of the California conference, has nothing to
do with CA (who organised the two Orlando conferences) I fail to see the
relevance of this statement. There is no connection between the organisers, and
what Oskar was doing was going to be 100% technical.
While I'm sure there were many and various reasons for the small attendance
numbers generated, the Orlando experience would not have been amongst them.
Geoff Schaller
website.
"Mark L. Cooper" <mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bjvc5m$nob4j$1...@ID-147466.news.uni-berlin.de...
Mark L. Cooper
>
> Not to mention "Best In Show"
>
If you've ever been to a large dog conformation show you know how close to
the truth that movie really is.
Westminster is not large at all, just the oldest in the States and
supposedly the most 'prestigious.' I think there are around 1500 entries.
The Columbus show has around 2500 entries - been there. The Cleveland show
has just under 4000 entries - been there. Our youngest Australian Cattle Dog
has her championship. We showed her ourselves - no handler/trainers.
Yep, I'm the guy in the old beater motorhome. Well, actually, we just
upgraded the first of the year. We're all the way up to a '91 now<g>. From a
'78, that is a huge jump.
Gary Stark
> Yep, I'm the guy in the old beater motorhome. Well, actually, we just
But with Aussie Cattles, not a bloodhound? How's the fishing? :)
We're building up a nice collection of movies by a few select teams ... Chris
Guest's stuff is one, the Zuckers and the Coens are others.
Mark L. Cooper
> What? For the delegate? US 800 for 3 days I think. Not sure - look up the
> website.
$895 Earlybird. $1095 regular. 3 days.
I never developed the habit of going to knowvo for current news... it
usually wasn't very current. I see that has changed for the better!
Mark L. Cooper
>
> But with Aussie Cattles, not a bloodhound? How's the fishing? :)
>
Yep. Not nearly as mellow as a hound.
I quit fishing when it was time to purchase my first fishing license. Didn't
seem to make sense to pay good money to drown worms.
> We're building up a nice collection of movies by a few select teams ...
Chris
> Guest's stuff is one, the Zuckers and the Coens are others.
>
I collected the original Star Wars movies and the Star Trek movies. Between
photography and computers I don't have much of an urge to watch movies like
I used to.
I just ordered up a mat cutter system. I have a few photos that I believe
are frame worthy. I'm going museum quality with linen cloth hinges, wheat
starch glue, cotton rag mat board, etc. Maybe a little presumptious on my
part, but if I'm going to frame my photo's, I'm going to make sure they
last.
Marshall Rhinehart
As the self appointed 'truth' police for this NG, your response is puzzling.
You are mistaken, should I contact your ISP? Should I tag you're future
comments?
No, that would be childish.
On the otherhand, your 'personal' comment, directed at me, reminds me why I
hesitate to post in this forum.
> > At CA-World in Orlando, the announcement of the change from CA to Graphx
was
> > made. In the long run this was probably in the best interest of the
user
> > base. In the short run, however, you had attendees who were not offered
the
> > classes they were told would be there. Members of this group did their
best
>
> Methinks you're a tad confused.
Some of us pay to go to conferences. We look at a schedule of classes, and
make a financial decision if it is worthwhile to attend. I was supplied
such a list, by CA, prior to sending Computer Associates payment for the
conference. This is how things work in the real world. But seeing as
you've labelled me 'confused', I'll take things slow (for my own benefit).
> In Orlando 2002 there was a promise of a return to technical content, and
> indeed, that content was delivered. while the number of sessions was not
up to
> what had been delivered in years prior to 2001, the promised sessions were
> given,
The statement that the 'promised' sessions were given, is so far from the
truth that I can't quite understand what you're thinking of. ALL of the
Computer Associates sessions were 'pulled'. I believe I have the conference
agenda at my office, I can list the advertised sessions, and those that were
actually given. It is my recollection that about two thirds of the promised
sessions, were not given. As important, the promised access to certain CA
employees, was taken away. (If you are not presenting at a conference, the
people putting it on tell you, via schedules, what will take place. What
was presented to me, a paying customer, differed significantly from what was
put on.) This is a criticism of CA, not anyone associated with this group,
or anyone at Grafx. But you've called me confused, so I feel it necesary to
explain myself.
I'm not talking about some slight discrepancy. A classroom number was
provided, with a starting time, and a speaker. If the 'advertised' speaker
was an employee of CA, the class was cancelled.
>
> This is the first I've heard of this sort of thing, and I was at both of
these
> events. In 2001 there were no promises of any technical sessions made, and
> therefore none of those promises could be broken. In 2002 there were
certainly
> promises made, and to my knowledge and recollection, those promises were
> delivered upon.
>
> > While this is now water under the bridge, I think it should be
considered
> > when trying to understand why there were so few U.S. attendees in
California
> > (clearly this is not the only reason).
>
> Given that Oskar, as the organiser of the California conference, has
nothing to
> do with CA (who organised the two Orlando conferences) I fail to see the
> relevance of this statement. There is no connection between the
organisers, and
> what Oskar was doing was going to be 100% technical.
>
> While I'm sure there were many and various reasons for the small
attendance
> numbers generated, the Orlando experience would not have been amongst
them.
>
I was a paying attendee in Orlando, and California. To read such a
condescending and smug response, from a person not in attendance (of
California), gives me a renewed distaste for this forum.
If it is your recollection that all of the sessions were given, as
advertised, in Orlando 2002, then those rose colored VO glasses your viewing
the world thru are tinted even a little darker than I realized.
Marshall
Gary Stark
Marshall Rhinehart wrote:
> Gary,
>
> As the self appointed 'truth' police for this NG, your response is puzzling.
I'm certainly puzzled by that comment. I have never made any such claim, nor am
I aware of anyone suggesting any such thing on my behalf.
> On the otherhand, your 'personal' comment, directed at me, reminds me why I
> hesitate to post in this forum.
It's not a comment, it's merely an observation. Clearly your recollection
differs from mine. As it happens, I was an attendee at every single CA World
from the very first one - 1996 in New Orleans - until 2002 in Orlando. I chose
to not go this year, because there was no content of any value to me. For the
same reason, I would not have attended 2001 in Orlando were it not for my
attendacne at CARE.
> > > At CA-World in Orlando, the announcement of the change from CA to Graphx
> was
> > > made. In the long run this was probably in the best interest of the
> user
> > > base. In the short run, however, you had attendees who were not offered
> the
> > > classes they were told would be there. Members of this group did their
> best
> >
> > Methinks you're a tad confused.
>
> Some of us pay to go to conferences. We look at a schedule of classes, and
> make a financial decision if it is worthwhile to attend. I was supplied
I think your inference that speakers do not pay to go conferences is entirely
inappropriate.
Not to mention just plain wrong!
And if you believe that I go to conferences purely as a speaker, then I have
some really bad news for you.
If you happen to believe that I go there for free, boy, I have some really,
really bad news for you.
Yes, certainly I attend as a speaker. I feel that it's my duty to do so: I have
learned a whole lot from this community, and I feel privileged that I am able to
return something to that same community.
FWIW, I have also attended many conferences - including Devcons, Technicons and
CA-Worlds, as a paying participant, frequently out of my own pocket. I do not
rely upon others to contribute to my personal education.
But importantly, I always have to justify my costs of attendance.
The cost of airfare from Australia to Orlando was around Au$2K last year.CA did
not pick up my tab for the costs of air travel. CA also did not pick up the
costs of my hotel accommodation either. For the week, add about another US$1K.
Now add the cost my rental car ...
Meals away from the conference. I often choose to not eat convention centre
food!
The cost of the opportunity lost due to the billable work that was not done
during my absence ...
My total costs for attendance at CA World would typically work out to be in the
vicinity of Au$8K or Au$10K. No matter which way you add it up, that's a lot of
money, and I have to justify that.
Now add the cost of preparations. The cost of time expended in preparing one's
papers for a conference. The procurement and assignment of hardware. The
preparation of materials so that when one is demonstrating software using
wireless hardware, it all just works. Yes, it all takes time and effort to do
and get ready, so that there will be no hassles when it comes to the session
presentations. FYI, for the sessions I present these days, I travel with a
portable wired and wireless LAN, with Linux, Windows, CE and Palm OS systems.
That is certainly close to the setup I used in Orlando last year.
The justification though is so easy as to be trivial. I do go to learn. I do go
to listen. And I do go to network with my colleagues.
The cost of that is priceless!
> such a list, by CA, prior to sending Computer Associates payment for the
> conference. This is how things work in the real world. But seeing as
I live in the real world. Clearly, you don't seem to have an understanding of
the commitment one makes when one is speaking ...
> > In Orlando 2002 there was a promise of a return to technical content, and
> > indeed, that content was delivered. while the number of sessions was not
> up to
> > what had been delivered in years prior to 2001, the promised sessions were
> > given,
>
> The statement that the 'promised' sessions were given, is so far from the
> truth that I can't quite understand what you're thinking of. ALL of the
> Computer Associates sessions were 'pulled'. I believe I have the conference
> agenda at my office, I can list the advertised sessions, and those that were
> actually given. It is my recollection that about two thirds of the promised
I would appreciate this information. I cannot recall any of this, although I do
recall that none of the development team were present. Certainly, all of the
sessions that I expected to see and participate in were given.
> sessions, were not given. As important, the promised access to certain CA
> employees, was taken away. (If you are not presenting at a conference, the
> people putting it on tell you, via schedules, what will take place. What
You're suggestion that as a speaker one has "special" access to CA staff is
misplaced. It doesn't happen.
As an individual, I have, over a period of ten years attending these
conferences, come to know many of the staff involved as personal friends. As a
friend of some people, I perhaps have slightly better access to a couple of
individuals, but not many, and in the times when I have not been a speaker, it
was never any different.
The bottom line is that I too have had to rely on the published schedules to
find out what sessions are on, when they're on, and where they're being held.
The only time that I've actually needed some form of extra access to CA staff
was when, in New Orleans in 2000, I was ill one day and unable to give a
scheduled session, and I needed to notify them of my unavailability.
> or anyone at Grafx. But you've called me confused, so I feel it necesary to
> explain myself.
Actually, I didn't say that at all. I did say that I thought you might be, but
that is not the same thing. It's merely my impression.
As I've said, your recollection appears to be different from mine, and what
you're saying may well be your recollection, but it certainly doesn't match
mine. And I can tell you quite emphatically that my sessions were not cancelled,
and neither were any of the other sessions that I had planned to - and did in
fact - attend. And I can tell you even more emphatically that when you suggest
that speakers get a free ride (as you appear to be indicating) you really
couldn;t be further from the mark if you tried.
> I'm not talking about some slight discrepancy. A classroom number was
> provided, with a starting time, and a speaker. If the 'advertised' speaker
> was an employee of CA, the class was cancelled.
Again, that is not my recollection.
> > While I'm sure there were many and various reasons for the small
> attendance
> > numbers generated, the Orlando experience would not have been amongst
> them.
> >
>
> I was a paying attendee in Orlando, and California. To read such a
> condescending and smug response, from a person not in attendance (of
> California), gives me a renewed distaste for this forum.
If you believe that my response is condescending or smug, then I'm sorry, but
just as there are many things that you are privvy to that I am not, so too you
are not privvy to many things that I have knowledge of.
There are a great many reasons why people chose to not attend the California
conference, and I have had off-list discussions with a number of people who made
their decisions based upon their own reasons. At no time was any reference to
Orlando made as one of the reasons for the non-attendance of the people to whom
I'm referring. While I'm not denying that some may have cited Orlando's
expereicnes as a reason, all I'm saying is that I know of several who did not.
You may take that, or you may leave it, but it doesn't change what they're told
me.
> If it is your recollection that all of the sessions were given, as
> advertised, in Orlando 2002, then those rose colored VO glasses your viewing
> the world thru are tinted even a little darker than I realized.
Rose coloured VO glasses ? On me ???
ROTFLMAO!
Please, I look forward to you providing the specific details of the session
cancellations. I'm seriously interested in seeing this.
Phil McGuinness
I recall the last VO DEVCON or CA-World, what ever you want to call it did
have some reassessment of VO sessions.
This was the conference where the annoucement of VO hand over to Grafx was
involved.
I think one or two of the developers was to attend but did not... but
correct me if I am wrong.
I know there was a change because I was asked to present session (when I had
not submitted to speak..) and to cover a few sessions that were then
reorganised by Tom Walden and the committee. I remember type away in my
motel room in Orlando to the wee small hours. As I understand it there was
still the same amount of sessions and the contect was still top quality.
In fact as usual there were too many to attend.
Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
--
"Gary Stark" <tas3...@RedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
news:3F63ECEB...@RedbacksWeb.com...
Gary Stark
Phil McGuinness wrote:
> Gary,
>
> I recall the last VO DEVCON or CA-World, what ever you want to call it did
> have some reassessment of VO sessions.
It would be CA World ...
> I think one or two of the developers was to attend but did not... but
> correct me if I am wrong.
I can certainly recall that none of the dev team were thete ...
> I know there was a change because I was asked to present session (when I had
> not submitted to speak..) and to cover a few sessions that were then
> reorganised by Tom Walden and the committee. I remember type away in my
OK ... perhaps that was it then?
> motel room in Orlando to the wee small hours. As I understand it there was
> still the same amount of sessions and the contect was still top quality.
That was my point though - there was still oodles of content of an exceptionally
high quality.
> In fact as usual there were too many to attend.
Precisely. I have trouble understanding how someone could find that they had
time on their hands due to a perception of inadequate content.Certainly, one can
choose to not attend sessions, but to equate an active decision with an absence
of content not, IME, the reality of the situation.
Thanx for the clarification.
> "Gary Stark" <tas3...@RedbacksWeb.com> wrote in message
> news:3F63ECEB...@RedbacksWeb.com...
> > Marshall
> >
> > Marshall Rhinehart wrote:
> >
> > > Gary,
> > >
> > > As the self appointed 'truth' police for this NG, your response is
> puzzling.
> >
> > I'm certainly puzzled by that comment. I have never made any such claim,
> nor am
> > I aware of anyone suggesting any such thing on my behalf.
> >
--
Marshall Rhinehart
>
> Precisely. I have trouble understanding how someone could find that they
had
> time on their hands due to a perception of inadequate content.Certainly,
one can
> choose to not attend sessions, but to equate an active decision with an
absence
> of content not, IME, the reality of the situation.
>
> Thanx for the clarification.
>
Hmmm. I did not say that I had time on my hands, nor did I criticize the
content of the presentations that were given. I went to every 'timeslot',
including one you did on handheld devices.
This is not that important, but out of the blue you've found a need to be
critical of a fairly innocuous comment on my part.
My criticism was with CA, for marketing one thing, and actually providing
another. Not everyone who attends a conference is an independent
consultant. Some of those in attendance need to answer to a superior. If a
request is made for funding out of a limited training budget, the attendee
will at a minimum be asked what they got out of the conference. IE...."How
was that session on sockets..." .."well, it didn't happen.".... is not a
great response.
While the 'core' group of VO insiders was spinning that the CA - GraphxSoft
announcement was great news, a fair number of attendees more pressing
concern was....how do I explain this (the six classes I came to attend are
not being given) to my boss? I recall more than one attendee considering
whether he should return home, because he was now staying in Florida on his
companies tab, when he knew the classes he was sent to attend would not be
held. For those of us fortunate enough to be independent, these seem like
strange concerns. But for some, they were real. These are not the people
who attend these conferences for beer night, or even hang around much in
this NG, but they were paid users of 2.5, but probably not 2.6.
Misleading IS departments is bad policy. Some US users of VO, did not feel
they could ask that limited training dollars be spent on a conference, when
the preceding year's conference varied so widely from what was 'marketed'.
Those of us who follow this NG, understand that the two (CA World, and the
recent conference put on by Oskar) are very different things. However,
people making budgetary evaluations, don't have that same level of
understanding.
Marshall
Phil McGuinness
Well said.....! I can appreciate your point.
I would have hated to go to a major football match and get there and find
out they changed the teams.
snip[ Misleading IS departments is bad policy ]
Microsoft have been doing it for years <G>
Phil McGuinness - Sherlock Software
---------
"Marshall Rhinehart" <marc...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:5JU8b.497$065.3...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
>
Gary Stark
Marshall Rhinehart wrote:
> Gary,
>
> >
> > Precisely. I have trouble understanding how someone could find that they
> had
> > time on their hands due to a perception of inadequate content.Certainly,
> one can
> > choose to not attend sessions, but to equate an active decision with an
> absence
> > of content not, IME, the reality of the situation.
> >
> > Thanx for the clarification.
> >
>
> Hmmm. I did not say that I had time on my hands, nor did I criticize the
> content of the presentations that were given. I went to every 'timeslot',
> including one you did on handheld devices.
OK ... good.
> This is not that important, but out of the blue you've found a need to be
> critical of a fairly innocuous comment on my part.
You perhaps should try to not be so defensive: I was not being crtitical of your
comment, but merely questioning it, because what you were saying was different
from my recollection. Please understand that you are not under attack.
> My criticism was with CA, for marketing one thing, and actually providing
CA are certainly not, IMHO, the best of marketers. That does not change the fact
that that think that they are good at marketing, and in all honesty, when you
look at their accumulated results over an extended period of time, you would
have to agree that it's difficult to argue that they haven't got a clue.
But that is one reason why VO has, since Orlando last year, never been in better
hands. And please, there are few who have been as openly critical of CA as I
have, over the years, been. If there's one thing that I cannot be accused of,
it's of being quiet!
> another. Not everyone who attends a conference is an independent
> consultant. Some of those in attendance need to answer to a superior. If a
Yes; I know this only too well. I've been in all camps - as a speaker, and as an
attendee, and in both instances, as a consultant and/or as an employee. Indeed,
I've been at conferences as an employee/attendee totally on my own budget with
no support from my employer (taking vacation time to attend as well as paying
conference fees, air travel and accommodation costs out of my own pocket), as
well as being an attendee on the corporate nickel, having to not only report to
a supervisor (they were never my superior) but also having to prepare formal
presentations to my coporate peers.
> request is made for funding out of a limited training budget, the attendee
> will at a minimum be asked what they got out of the conference. IE...."How
Yep. I know this only too well. But I'm really failing to see what your point
is.
> was that session on sockets..." .."well, it didn't happen.".... is not a
> great response.
But that is exactly my question. What, precisely, "did not happen" ? You've not
yet stated this in terms of cancelled presentations, and I note and accept that
you may not have the relevant documents handy to provide this answer at this
time.
But just because person "A" or person "B" didn't present, does that mean that
the conference was a total waste? If so, then I would be seriously questioning
the initial decision to even attend the conference. I don't base my decision to
go (or to not go) based upon the presentations of just one or two people. I will
look at the whole conference agenda.
Orlando 2001 was, effectively, a non-event from a technical perspective. I had
trouble recommending attendance to my peers in the local users' group, and I was
openly vocal in 2000 (at World in N'Awlins) and in 2001 (at CARE) at what I
viewed was CA's inept decision.
Very vocal, in fact.
Orlando 2002 was a totally different ballgame, and whether or not CA staff
presented was not, in the grand scheme of things, relevant. I look at the
contents of the total package. CA staff were certainly able to present some
valuable content, but on the whole, the work that CA staff perform is not all
that relevant to the work I do at the coalface. They were developing my
development tool, whereas I'm developing end-user apps. Two very different
viewpoints of the same product.
That's where there is now a very significant difference between the team Brian
has assembled when compared with the team that CA had. Many of the people on
Brian's team are also VO users who use the product as we do, to develop apps for
end-users. That was rarely the case wth CA's staff, and so they frequently
didn't have quite the same view of the product that we have.
> While the 'core' group of VO insiders was spinning that the CA - GraphxSoft
> announcement was great news, a fair number of attendees more pressing
Again, I think you're missing some vital elements here.
Let me ask you whom do you think comprises this "core" group of "VO insiders"
that you're referring to? You're not suggesting this, but I'm certainly reading
(and perhaps misreading) an implication by you that you may believe that they're
some group of VO elitists. This really is not the case. They were, with one or
two exceptions, the presidents of the various VO users' groups from all over the
world, all of whom were elected to those positions by their respective
memberships.
So, yes, they were certainly a core group, but they were, equally, a broad
representation of VO users from all various places including North, Central and
South America, various European countries, four different cities in Australia
.... So, this "core" group of "insiders" is really nothing more than the
representives of the world's VO user base.
As to "insiders", I dare say that some of them may well have been beta testers,
so perhaps, yes, they might be considered to be insiders, although being a beta
tester would not have made them privvy to details of Brian's plans.
Others perhaps may have been approached prior to the announcement with reference
to becoming a part of Brian's development team, but in all honesty, I suspect
that most of this "core" group had no prior knowledge of the impending change in
VO's development arrangements, and so I'd suspect that calling them "insiders"
is perhaps doing them a disservice.
Moreover, by your use of the word "spin", you seem (to me) to be discounting
their collective opinion that the transfer to GrafxSoft was a good thing for VO.
You're certainly entitled to hold a contrary POV, but my personal viewpoint is
that without Brian's input and personal efforts, VO would now be dead.
Probably buried.
I believe that the fact that a collection of UGPs seems to share a similar
opinion to mine is more than mere coincidence, and I would respectfuly suggest
has nothing to do with any "insider" information that a few of that group might
have held.
> concern was....how do I explain this (the six classes I came to attend are
> not being given) to my boss? I recall more than one attendee considering
Again, if you're justifying the attendance on the appearance of one or two
speakers, I suspect that your justification methodologies might be misplaced. I
would certainly be looking at a total curriculum, and because I know that there
will always be late changes, I choose to never commit to any particular subjects
(other than the ones I lead) until I'm on site and I have a clearer view of how
the actual conference is working out.
IIRC, Phil Schwarz was scheduled to attend N'Awlins in 2000 but was unable to be
there due to ill health. What's the real difference when every one of his
sessions had been cancelled, in terms of the end result? Again, I contend that
you need to give due regard to the total agenda.
And after-the-event reporting is never an issue if I've been working properly
whilst at the event.
> held. For those of us fortunate enough to be independent, these seem like
> strange concerns. But for some, they were real. These are not the people
No, I don't consider those concerns to be strange at all. They're certainly more
than reasonable, and quite acceptable and justifiable.
What I consider to be strange though is that these concerns even arise, given
the diverse content available at the conference.
Apart from 2001, I cannot recall a CA-World that didn't contain more than enough
technical content to satisfy the techie and hardware junkie that I know I am.
> who attend these conferences for beer night, or even hang around much in
> this NG, but they were paid users of 2.5, but probably not 2.6.
Actually, I personally find the beer nights less than attractive - I am not a
beer drinker. I can think of far better things to do than just have a beer. I do
accept that they're an important part of the social content of these conferences
though, and perhaps this might be a good time to remind everyone that the best
technical content is always found outside the formal sessions, usually fairly
late at night, in one of the bars.
That's a most important point that you cannot afford to overlook: the best
technical content is always found outside the formal sessions, usually fairly
late at night, in one of the bars.
If your not attending the "after hours" sessions, you are truly missing out on
the most valuable part of the conferences.
> Misleading IS departments is bad policy. Some US users of VO, did not feel
Who was doing this "misleading"?
CA have been misleading people for as long as they have been in existance. It's
called "marketing". Microsoft do the same.
And what do Oskar's actions have to do with CA's marketing? Oskar's conference
had no input (that I'm aware of) from CA.
Did Oskar mislead anyone? If so, how?
Let me state quite categorically that I don't believe that he did.
> Those of us who follow this NG, understand that the two (CA World, and the
> recent conference put on by Oskar) are very different things. However,
And a simple perusal of the relevant documents associated with each event would
surely prove to anyone the veracity of this.
> people making budgetary evaluations, don't have that same level of
> understanding.
Then I would respectfully contend that those people are not being presented with
all of the relevant details.