Ilias - Official VOCA/SDT statement
Oskar Schneider
first, if you are reading this post and thinking about replying, please stay
calm - you can reply later...
Deleting messages from a newsserver, in this case the Berlin University, is
a Denial of Service Attack and can be prosecuted as a felony.
Also name calling has never happend before in this NG and will not be
tolerated.
VOCA and SDT want to make absolutely clear that we neither support nor
tolerate practices like this.
I would expect that Erik contacts the Berlin University and apologizes.
I am also expecting a public apology by the folks responsible for the
immature name calling.
Oskar Schneider
VOCA Germany
Greg Garza
Thanks for the reply.
> Deleting messages from a newsserver, in this case the Berlin
University, is
> a Denial of Service Attack and can be prosecuted as a felony.
I'm sure Berlin University can define such actions as violations of
their AUP and can prosecute such activities. But I've been searching
for policies in the cybercrime division of the United States Department
of Justice (or any country for that matter) and can't find anything
describing deleting messages from a newsgroup as Denial of Service. I'm
sure someone can make the case but is there precedence?
I'm not doubting what you are saying I just like to have reference to
such matters.
Thanks,
Greg
news.t-online.de
"Greg Garza" <gga...@ruddwisdom.com> wrote in message
news:bj88ll$fmu6r$1...@ID-134241.news.uni-berlin.de...
In Germany:
StGB 303a und 303b
§ 303a Datenveränderung
(1) Wer rechtswidrig Daten (§ 202a Abs. 2) löscht, unterdrückt, unbrauchbar
macht oder verändert, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu zwei Jahren oder mit
Geldstrafe bestraft.
Free translation: Who illigal delete, oppresse, make unusable or change data
will be punished with a imprisonment up to 2 years or with monetary penalty.
(2) Der Versuch ist strafbar.
The attempt is punishable
This is valid similar in the most countries of the European Union. In this
case both, victim and penetrator lives in the EU.
> Thanks,
>
> Greg
>
>
Regards,
Michael
Michael Zech
now.
Jari Sevon
> This is valid similar in the most countries of the European Union. In this
> case both, victim and penetrator lives in the EU.
Yes absolutely, same here in Finland. The following is important...
> The attempt is punishable
Previously this year we had a case where guy was making port scan to one
of our major national banks. He was found guilty as charged and he had to
pay to bank something like 20 000 EUR for the damages. Allthough I can't
agree with court on this one, it obviously sows that "attempt is punishable"
in EU.
We also are part of EU as you propably know.
- Jari -
Marcus Lane
Thank you for your message, this should keep them from abusing Ilias
and anyone else for a while.
I always feel that Ilias has dont nothing wrong. If we want to talk
about off topic postings, there are more non-vo related postings from
Gary and his friends ( for example: recently about food in "Visual
Objects 2.7"). Lets hope the seriousness of this offence will them a
lesson that this newsgroup does not belongs to them.
Name calling is a terrible thing to do, I was shocked so many in this
newsgroup resorting to name calling. Those who has done so, should
have enough courage to come out and apologize to Ilias.
Regards
Marcus
"Oskar Schneider" <Os...@atk-it.com> wrote in message news:<bj83us$ftsqm$1...@ID-22984.news.uni-berlin.de>...
Gary Stark
With all due respect,
> I always feel that Ilias has dont nothing wrong.
Are you not the same person who once said "are you saying you are good at C#, VB, VB.Net, PHP and VO ? nobody
can
master so many programming language." ? The evidence has already been presented to you that there are a many
people here who can and have mastered a great number of different and diverse programming languages and
environments. You would do well to listen to the advice of some who may have greater capabilities than you may
be willing to acknowledge.
Let me assure you that there is nothing wrong with a small amount of off-topic banter - it helps keeps people
sane. However, product bashing, such as is being practised by Ilias and Ilias alone, is specifically excluded
from this newsgroup by virtue of its charter.
Please note that there has been no - please get this right: no - technical content in any of Ilias's recent
postings, and very little whatsoever in any of the postings he has ever made. The sum total of his
contribution to this newsgroup has been to attempt to divide and, for whatever misguided motivation he may
have, conquor. His posts are derivative and contain irrelevant and inaccurate references. They contain no
original content. He appears to make no effort to validate or authenticate his content.
He even attempted to plead a case to a German language administrative newsgroup but: his messages were
off-topic (there is an English language newsgroup assigned for this purpose in this newsgroup's charter - he
has not even attempted to post a message there), and his "case" recieved little support.
Geoff's offer of an olive branch has now been twice made to Ilias. The true measure of Ilias as an individual
is that he has now twice ignored Geoff's most generous offer.
You would do well to ask why it is that he continues to ignore Geoff's offer.
Reputable users of this newsgroup will no longer respond to his jibes.
He is a troll. He is recognised as such. If his attitude continues in its current mode, he will be branded as
such.
--
g.
Gary Stark
gst...@RedbacksWeb.com
http://RedbacksWeb.com
Erik Visser
should somebody wanna do this?) and sending canceling messages of a
newsgroup. (why should somebody wanna do this?)
At the site of the dutch newshierachie
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sister/usenet/nl-misbruik.html
you can find a link to the Newsgroup Care Cancel Cookbook.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rosalind/faq-care.html
Not to justify what i did, but you cannot call it a crime.
Erik Visser
"Jari Sevon" <Jari.Sevon@code REMOVE THIS block.fi> schreef in bericht
news:bjauba$5h8$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
Mark L. Cooper
One of the things I like about this newsgroup is the general willingness of
people to stand up and tell us who they are, what they are doing, and WHY
they are doing it. I have been to most of the websites maintained by the
active contributors to this newsgroup: Gary Stark, Ginny, Geoff, Phil,
Craig, Willie Moore , Paul Piko, Marc Verkade, Jean-Paul, and many others.
We know what these people are doing with VO and why they are here. When I
joined this newsgroup and posted my first question I stated my credentials
and why I was learning VO. Many others have stated their position in the VO
world.
Ilias has never done that. We have no idea why he is using VO. We don't
know what kind of project he is working on. We don't know what, if any,
other programming languages he has used. We have no point of reference for
understanding the purpose of his posts.
Not having any of this backgraound available to us, and only going by what
he has told us indirectly via his posting style and topics, I have to wonder
why he is here. Is it to help him get a particular job/project done using
VO? Is it to help him learn the syntax of a particular VO command? Is it to
get guidance on a particular programming concept (ie: should I allow my
users to edit data while in a browser?). Is it to find a better print engine
than Caret? Is it just because he enjoys the camaraderie of fellow VO'ers?
If the answer is no to all of the above possibilities, what does that leave?
Does he want to ensure an accurate historical record in the ng archives for
future VO newbies? Who put him in charge of that? Or, does he just like to
stir up trouble?
He has asked one, maybe two questions at the most. And has appeared to not
have liked the answers. The rest of his originating posts just don't seem to
be germaine to working on a VO coding project.
I am very interested in hearing what project he is working on. I don't need
the details. Is he working on a reservation system for Euorpean youth
hostels for instance? Does his uncle own a Greek restaurant, and Ilias is
working on a cost control system? Is he an inmate in a prison with access to
the Internet in the jail 'law library' and just has nothing better to do
than wreak havoc? (people from the States will understand that one<g>)
I am not a VO expert by any means, but I would gladly offer whatever help I
could to Ilias if he let me know what he was trying to accomplish.
Mark
--
Mark L. Cooper
Columbus, Ohio USA
Erik Visser
Who called Ed Richard an egoist?
Erik Visser
"Marcus Lane" <marcu...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:8507e311.03090...@posting.google.com...
ilias
wrote:
>"Marcus Lane" <marcu...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
>news:8507e311.03090...@posting.google.com...
>> I always feel that Ilias has dont nothing wrong
>
>Who called Ed Richard an egoist?
me not.
>Erik Visser
My question to Ed Richard was :
"Now, are you an egoist, or not?"
anyone can decide if this rhetoric comment is justified.
[COMSDK] - Bug Report/Fix: BSTR* [in,out]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=bbr82m%24v4r%241%40newsreader.mailgate.org
-
ilias
wrote:
>I think there a little difference between port-scanning of a major bank (why
>should somebody wanna do this?)
to steal money?
the bank will recover this from a backup-account.
or from an insurance-company.
=> no psychological damage.
>and sending canceling messages of a
>newsgroup. (why should somebody wanna do this?)
to keep a mouth of a human closed?
in 'real life', you have to use violence for this.
but how does the victim recovers from the feeling "i cannot speak"?
=> possible psychological damages.
>At the site of the dutch newshierachie
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~sister/usenet/nl-misbruik.html
>you can find a link to the Newsgroup Care Cancel Cookbook.
>http://www.xs4all.nl/~rosalind/faq-care.html
You can find hundrets of links.
This does not change anything to basic German law (which should be
basic European law).
>Not to justify what i did,
i understand that you feel uncomfortable...
>but you cannot call it a crime.
...but you must admit it to yourself:
It is a crime!
The only justification is possibly, that "Forged Cancel" is so easy to
do, there is no barrier.
But in 'real life' it is the same.
It is easy to e.g. forge a signature, too.
There is no barrier, except our ethics and/or the scare of being
uncovered/punished.
In 'real life' most humans are aware of this.
-
>Erik Visser
Troll Watcher
ilias is well-known on this, and other, newsgroups as an unreliable
source of information. The purpose of his postings is usually to
mis-represent some personal hang-up he has as a valid topic for this newsgroup.
Please ensure you check the veracity of any information he posts. We also strongly
recommend that you do not reply to him. Apart from the encouragement it may provide
him,invariably you will receive some bad-mannered, illogical and spiteful responses
for your efforts.
Troll Watcher
ilias
<mlcooper...@aol.com> wrote:
>Marcus,
[...]
some of your statements are not precise, but i will not go into
details.
I understand your curiosity.
>I am not a VO expert by any means, but I would gladly offer whatever help I
>could to Ilias if he let me know what he was trying to accomplish.
OK.
What about reviewing some articles, before i publish them?
During the review, you'll get the answers.
>
>Mark
ilias
<nom3...@RedbacksWeb.com> wrote:
[note: One can easily detect, that the fingers which wrote this
message were guided by egoism and feeling and not by rationality.
Writing answers to such posts (which nearly completely ignore reality)
is not that easy to me. Thus i do not answer to such messages, but
sometimes i do.]
>Markus
>
>With all due respect,
>
>> I always feel that Ilias has dont nothing wrong.
[this statement raised emotions...]
>
>Are you not the same person who once said "are you saying you are good at C#, VB, VB.Net, PHP and VO ? nobody
>can master so many programming language." ?
fact irrelevant to the topic.
>The evidence has already been presented to you that there are a many
>people here who can and have mastered a great number of different and diverse programming languages and
>environments.
faulty conclusion.
hint: relativity of the terms "master" and "good"
>You would do well to listen to the advice of some who may have greater capabilities than you may
>be willing to acknowledge.
impressive sentence.
really impressive.
>
>Let me assure you that there is nothing wrong with a small amount of off-topic banter - it helps keeps people
>sane.
this is correct.
relativity: "small amount"
solution:
usenet quasi-standard "[OT](was: <oldTopicName>)"
thus anyone can decide if he gets the knowledge about the prefered
food of a (how do you say) VO-fellow...
...or if the newsreader-filter 'eats' it.
>However, product bashing, such as is being practised by Ilias and Ilias alone,
false fact
"product bashing" => criticism / review
>is specifically excluded from this newsgroup by virtue of its charter.
false fact.
>Please note that there has been no - please get this right: no - technical content in any of Ilias's recent
>postings, and very little whatsoever in any of the postings he has ever made.
false fact.
>The sum total of his contribution to this newsgroup has been to attempt to divide and, for whatever misguided motivation he may
>have, conquor.
faulty conclusion.
>His posts are derivative and contain irrelevant and inaccurate references.
false fact.
-
accurate references.
mainly to usenet-archives
and a few websites (GrafX, ...)
>They contain no original content.
false fact
>He appears to make no effort to validate or authenticate his content.
false fact
>
>He even attempted to plead a case to a German language administrative newsgroup but: his messages were
>off-topic (there is an English language newsgroup assigned for this purpose in this newsgroup's charter - he
>has not even attempted to post a message there), and his "case" recieved little support.
i got the help in the german newsgroup, in which i wrote german.
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=3F5640BF.1030406%40abeon.com
(btw: writing in english is off-topic in de.-newsgroups.)
-
no reaction in the english group:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3F57162C.7070908%40abeon.com
>
>Geoff's offer of an olive branch has now been twice made to Ilias. The true measure of Ilias as an individual
>is that he has now twice ignored Geoff's most generous offer.
Roots in scottland?
That would explain this "most generous offer"...
...3 beers?
>
>You would do well to ask why it is that he continues to ignore Geoff's offer.
It's easy: i don't drink beer.
>
>Reputable users of this newsgroup will no longer respond to his jibes.
excellent.
>
>He is a troll. He is recognised as such. If his attitude continues in its current mode, he will be branded as
>such.
And please find the strength to apologize for trolling me and this
newsgroup for so long time.
Troll Watcher
ilias
wrote:
>Name calling is a terrible thing to do, I was shocked so many in this
>newsgroup resorting to name calling. Those who has done so, should
>have enough courage to come out and apologize to Ilias.
They should have done that for VO and it's community.
-
But...
humans minds, as they grow they get more...
wisdom and calm - or...
stuborness and egoism.
Jari Sevon (- Jari -)
> I think there a little difference between port-scanning of a major bank
(why
> should somebody wanna do this?)
Of course it is totally different thing.
>and sending canceling messages of a
> newsgroup. (why should somebody wanna do this?)
> Not to justify what i did, but you cannot call it a crime.
Sorry, I was not trying to do that.
- Jari -
Troll Watcher
Troll Watcher
Mark L. Cooper
>
> What about reviewing some articles, before i publish them?
>
OK.
I am not multi-lingual so they will have to be in English.
> During the review, you'll get the answers.
>
Fair enough.
Troll Watcher
Erik Visser
OK, clear to me
Erik
"Jari Sevon (- Jari -)" <Jari.Sevon@codeblock TAKE THIS out.fi> schreef in
bericht news:bjg6n4$dnc$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
ilias
<TrollW...@visual-objectsNG.com> wrote:
I said:
"And please find the strength to apologize for trolling me and this
newsgroup for so long time."
and see what he's doing.
at least, the new version [see the autoreply] has a more concise
sender and keeps always the threads.
i had to sleep.
Troll Watcher
Erik Visser
is
> a Denial of Service Attack and can be prosecuted as a felony.
> I would expect that Erik contacts the Berlin University ....
So i did. And I explained what i did, how i did it and why. I also asked for
an account.
So i received two answers.
(1) a Yes, that's the way it works. (but It won't work with our news server)
b The issues and problems with forged cancels are well known almost as
long as Usenet exists
(2) Welcome to the NetNews service of Individual.NET,
Please configure the program you are using for accessing our server with
the following parameters:
Server/Newsserver News.Individual.NET
Username/Account XXXXXX
Password XXXXXXXX
Userid 9999999 (generally not required)
Is this the way they respond to a DOS attack?
Erik
ilias
>> Deleting messages from a newsserver, in this case the Berlin University,
>> is a Denial of Service Attack and can be prosecuted as a felony.
>> I would expect that Erik contacts the Berlin University ....
>
> So i did. And I explained what i did, how i did it and why. I also asked
> for an account. So i received two answers.
> (1) a Yes, that's the way it works. (but It won't work with our news
> server)
> b The issues and problems with forged cancels are well known almost as
> long as Usenet exists
> (2) Welcome to the NetNews service of Individual.NET,
[...] (account info)
> Is this the way they respond to a DOS attack?
You have -Denied-me the -Service-of cis.dfn.de due to an -Attack-via
permanent forged [using my privatly registred domain-email] cancel messages
posted via your ISP's newsserver.
-
This is a very serious issue.
-
The response from Berlin University is from an amateur and not from a
professional news-server administrator.