Daily Spirit-guided WDJW health tip for 03/14/09
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
we become healthier (hungrier) than ever.
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/Good
"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the
LORD." (Proverbs 16:33)
Amen.
A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/085dcffcafb7e4e2?
Nothing happens by chance because everything happens only as GOD
allows it (Ecclesiastes 9:11):
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/21527d1832960109?
Sign that GOD can easily unleash an H5N1 Pandemic (Pan-Flu) at any
time:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a4581567229974c0?
What we are teaching to prepare folks for the eventuality of a
catastrophic Pan-Flu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
How to not be fearful:
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
May dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a blessedly wonderful
2009th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus Christ as our Messiah,
the Son of Man ...
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
Hunger is wonderful ! ! !
It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus want?"
(WDJW):
Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve
paid for with their and our immortal lives:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...
... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)
Amen.
Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of
promoting much greater understanding:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
Jesus is LORD, forever !!!
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <><
--
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Just in case you're wondering, yes, the topic of this
post is that god-forsaken domain known as HELL!
In my opinion, humankind would best be served by
leaving such mythical horror concepts in our fearful
and hateful past. We know better, now, that such
places only exist in the manipulative minds of people
without a clue about reality, kindness, fairness, love,
peace, and nature, don't we?
Shouldn't our children be loved, nurtured, cared for,
protected, and raised in the knowledge of how they
can flourish in a natural world? Where does such an
evil concept as hell fit into that picture?
Excerpts from -Hell : An Illustrated History of the
NETHERWORLD-, by Richard Craze:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573240591
"INTRODUCTION : Virtually every culture has evolved
a mythology to explain what happens to the human soul
after death, as well as a mythology to explain in some way
natural phenomena such as storms and floods -- powerful
gods of chaos. Mythology is just another word for religion,
usually applied to ancient religions, although it could also
apply to more modern ones.
Different cultures have developed different ideas of hell for
various reasons, including: to explain what happens after
death; to motivate people to lead a good life for spiritual
ends; to control people politically by frightening them with
a threat of damnation or torture; or to incorporate a sense
of justice. ...
WHERE IS HELL? Every culture that has a concept of hell
locates it in a different place, although most agree that hell
lies somewhere underground, beneath or in the earth. Some
beliefs actually extend the location to the whole of the earth
itself. The Gnostic Cathars, for instance, believed that God
lived a long way away and that this earth was actually created
by the Devil. ...
WHAT IS HELL? Hell is invariably a place of punishment
and torture. Each culture has a set of laws or rules for people
to live by. Breaking these rules, or failing to live up to a certain
standard of morality, would be sufficient to cause someone
to be sent to hell, and their punishment there would be
allocated according to the severity of their sins. Medieval
Christians were very concerned with the Seven Deadly Sins,
and sinners of each of these sins were to suffer a particular
punishment in hell. The prideful were broken on the wheel ...
DANTE'S INFERNO ... Dante describes hell as a deep funnel-
shaped cavity with round circular sides, on which are built great
terraces with steep drops down to the next. Down these sheer
cliff faces flow four rivers, towards the very center of hell,
where there is the bottomless burning lake of the Evil One. ...
THE HELL OF REINCARNATION : The Hindus of India
believe in a very different hell from that of other cultures such
as Christianity -- theirs is a hell of the here and now rather
than some other place of punishment and torture. The Indian
Bhagavad Gita ("The Song of the Lord"), a holy book like the
Bible, is a description of the teachings of Lord Krishna to the
warrior prince Arjuna, his disciple.
Krishna says that hell has three gateways -- lust, greed, and
anger. If people fall into the trap of these three destructive evils
they are condemned to the hell of this life on earth. However,
if they practice what is good for them they will be liberated
from these three gates and will go to the Supreme Good. ...
THE GODDESS HEL ... In Viking mythology, hell is ruled
over by the goddess Hel and her kingdom is Niflheim (icy
world of the dead). Hel is an unpleasant character, in common
with the rest of her family. ...
THE DEVIL : As each hell reflects the belief system of a
culture, so too does the portrayal of the ruler of hell -- whom
we will call the Devil. In mythology the Devil is invariably a
representation of the earlier god or gods of a culture -- those
who cannot be disposed of entirely, merely demoted and sent
to the underworld themselves. ...
In the Bible, the word 'Satan' means adversary, and that was
how he was known for the first 300 years of Christianity.
It was not until around 590 A.D. (the time of Pope Gregory
the Great) that his name was even finally settled. Until then
he had been called Satanel, Lucifer (Lord of the Light), Belial
(The Worthless), Mastema (The Great Enemy), Beelzeboul
(Lord of Excrement), Beelzebub (Lord of Flies), and Azazel
(Lord of the Wasteland). These were older gods from
cultures with which the early Christians came into contact,
or they were Hebrew deities. ...
HELLISH CHARACTERS : Beelzebub was originally the
god of the Philistines. Jehovah, god of the Israelites, told
his people to stop the Philistines worshipping Beelzebub.
The Philistines wanted to know why. The Israelites said
that it was because he was not important enough -- he was
only a god of little things, like flies and other bugs. Thus
he became Beelzebub, Lord of Flies. ...
Xipetotec was the Aztec god of pain, which he liked so
much that he even flayed himself alive -- hence his name,
which means "flayed Lord" ... Kali is the wicked side of the
Hindu goddess Devi ... Moloch was the god of the Canaan-
ites. He is usually portrayed as an old man with horns, who
has children sacrificed to him, whom he then burns ...
Pan was the Greek god of nature. He was not originally a
devil but has increasingly been seen as one ... Rashnu was
the Persian god of the dead ... Mara was originally a devil
of the Hindus, who was known as 'the destroyer'. He was
the ruler of the underworld and was the devil who tempted
the Buddha as he sat reaching enlightenment ... Ahriman
was the Persian god of chaos. He was seen not so much
as leading the good astray as encouraging fools ...
The Antichrist is the supposed son of Satan, who will be
born just before the Last Judgement. He is seen as the
antithesis of Jesus -- come to lead us all into trouble. Just
about every tyrant during the last two thousand years,
including Napoleon, has been suspected of being the
Antichrist ...
Mot was the Lord of Death of the Canaanites ... Erlik was
the Siberian ruler of the underworld. Legend has it that he
was actually the first man to be created (his name means
'father') and while the other people were being created
(but before they had souls) Erlik spat on them out of jeal-
ousy and spite. Ulgan, the god of creation, was not too
pleased. Apparently he had to turn us inside-out, which
is why we look so ugly to this day. As a punishment, Erlik
was given the underworld to rule ...
Ghede -- more popularly known as Baron Samedi -- is the
Voodoo god of death ... Ictnike was the trickster devil of
the Sioux of North America. He was not so much a ruler
of hell as a tormentor of the living ... Tiamat was the Baby-
lonian female dragon evil. She was created before time
began and ruled the universe. To begin with she was good,
but the other gods angered her and she became monstrous. ...
Kronos was the youngest son of the Titan giants. He
was warned that one of his children might depose him,
so he ate them at birth. Zeus, his youngest child, escaped
and hurled Kronos into the pit, Tarturus, where he became
ruler of hell. Mephistopheles was invented in medieval
times as a sophisticated version of Satan. He is the wily
tempter who persuades Faustus to sell his soul.
HOW TO GET INTO (AND OUT OF) HELL : The cultures
that have a concept of hell usually have a complex and
ritualistic set of procedures for getting out of hell. The
Chinese believe that if some end up in hell, then only by
their descendants burning money can they be bribed out --
or if someone has died an unnatural death, they can trick
someone else into taking their place.
Christians believe that once someone is confined to hell
there is no escape or redemption, whereas Buddhists
believe that even if someone does end up in hell there
is always a chance of redemption if the unfortunate
sinner calls upon the Buddha himself to save him. ...
THE HARROWING OF HELL : The descent motif that
is common to most mythologies about hell also usually
contains an element of the 'harrowing', or distressing
of hell. This is where a hero or savior has to go to hell
and shut it down, or defeat its ruler or bring somebody
back. ...
Probably the most often overlooked example of the
harrowing of hell is that, according to the Catholic
Church, of Christ. During the Middle Ages it was the
subject of many of the mystery plays. After Jesus had
been crucified he went to hell -- not to suffer, but to
battle with the Devil, whom he defeated. He chained
up Satan and cast him into a fiery pit where he was
to stay for a thousand years. As well as closing down
hell, Jesus rescued Adam and other ancient souls, who
were redeemed. Ignoring the pleas of the truly wicked,
he set the sign of the cross in the middle of hell and
came back to be resurrected. ...
Prayer Book 1662 - I believe in God the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth: and in Jesus Christ his only
son our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead and buried, he descended into hell;
the 3rd day he arose from the dead, he ascended into
heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father
almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick
and the dead. ...
This was all fine until around the year 1000 A.D., when
Satan's banishment was supposed to end. Obviously
something went wrong, because Satan was expected to
reappear with his son, the Antichrist, and the end of the
world would take place. But nothing happened. ...
THE BABYLONIAN HELL ... There were seven gates
to the Babylonian hell of Kurnugia, each guarded by a
demon sent there by Nergal, Lord of the Underworld.
But he was not the true ruler -- that was really his wife,
the demon goddess Ereshkigal, Princess of the Kingom
of Shadows ...
THE GREEK HELL ... The Greeks borrowed freely from the
Babylonians, adding to and adapting the mythologies to
make them their own. They believed in Hades -- the Under-
world -- that was located a mere three yards below the sur-
face of the earth. It was a vast cavern, a shadowy place for
all the dead -- good or bad. Writers such as Homer (around
850 B.C.) added to its imagery with the River Styx, that
winds its way round the world of the dead nine times. The
ruler of Hades was Pluto, Zeus' brother, and he governed it
with a merciless severity and subjected his poor guests to
the most ingenious tortures. ...
THE EGYPTIAN HELL ... the Egyptian Book of the Dead,
from which we learn that the Ancient Egyptians divided
the universe into three -- heaven, earth, and the Duat, or
underworld. The Duat, sometimes known as Amenti, was
not originally a place of punishment but merely where the
sun god, Ra, went each evening when he departed from
the sky. ...
THE ROMAN HELL : The Romans knew exactly where
hell was located -- underneath Italy. Everything else they
borrowed from the Greeks. ...
LUCRETIUS' HELL : The poet Lucretius lived in Rome from
99 to 55 B.C., just before the time of Christ. We have seen
the Roman view of hell, but not all Romans would necessarily
have believed in it. Lucretius certainly did not and was most
vociferous in his condemnation of such foolish beliefs ... 'Why
do you weep and wail over death?
If the life you have lived till now has been a pleasant thing
why then, you silly creature, do you not retire as a guest who
has had his fill of life and take your care-free rest with a
quiet mind? And if it's been distasteful why not make an end
of life and labor?'
THE AZTEC HELL ... The Aztecs flourished in the area
around what is now Mexico until the arrival of the Spaniards
in 1520 ... while the dead were being cremated, the Aztec
priests would recite prayers that gave advice as to what
they could expect -- similar to both the Tibetan and Egyptian
Books of the Dead. The way was beset with grisly demons
and horrific adventures ...
REVELATION : And there was war in heaven ... fire came
down on them from heaven and consumed them; and the
Devil, their seducer, was flung into the lake of fire and sulfur,
where the beast and the false prophet had been flung, there
to be tormented day and night forever ...
THE CHRISTIAN HELL ... In the Old Testament, hell is a
place of fire without a specific ruler. In the New Testament
it becomes the abode of Satan, full of weeping and the
gnashing of teeth.
And by the time you get to the last book in the Bible -- the
Book of Revelation -- it has become the abominable fancy,
full of chains and dragons, and infinite agony. However, it
was the Synod of Bishops in Constantinople in 543 that
finally set the seal on hell, when they decreed that 'if anyone
shall say or even think that there is an end to the torment of
demons and ungodly persons, or that there ever will be an
end to it, then let them be excommunicated.' ...
Being excommunicated meant that when a person died they
went straight to hell. ...
THE JEWISH HELL ... The Jewish concept of hell started
out originally as a place of shadows and ghosts -- Sheol --
where the dead wandered about forever, aimlessly and with-
out punishment. There was no heaven or reunion with God --
after death there was nothing at all except a grey place of
animated corpses. ...
One of the purposes of myth and religion in many cultures
was to help the leaders control their people with threats of
damnation.
Sheol underwent a transformation to Gehenna -- the place of
fire. It is probable that it was named after the place just outside
Jerusalem where the household rubbish, including the bodies
of criminals and animals, was burnt. ...
THE BUDDHIST HELL ... Some Buddhists now believe in
the Buddha as a deity; others do not. In some Buddhist sects
there is a well-defined hierarchy of gods and demons while
others have none. Some branches of Buddhism even believe
there is not one hell but eight. ...
Some of the Tibetan Buddhists, the Ladaks, believe however
that there is no need of hell, for sinners are immediately rein-
carnated in the next life as marmots, a type of rodent that
burrows underground. ... The Mahayana Buddhists of Tibet
believe that hell only lasts for 49 days. ...
THE CHINESE HELL : The two principal belief systems of
China -- Taoism and Buddhism -- have both borrowed exten-
sively from each other's ideas about hell, so that they have
become amalgamated into a complex image from which
it is difficult to separate the two strands. ...
THE JAPANESE HELL : The ancient religion of Japan was
Shinto, which concerned itself with nature spirits. Shinto had
no real concept of hell -- dead people's souls went to heaven,
but there was a region under the earth, Yomi-T'su-Kuni, the
'land of darkness', where all wicked things lived. ... Once
Buddhism had gained a hold in Japan, around 500 A.D., the
concept of hell expanded. It became Jigoku, the 'ground
under the ground'. ...
CHANGING IMAGES OF HELL ... This is an age of self-
responsibility -- we can no longer blame the Devil for
tempting us, or ourselves for giving in to temptation.
We just *are* ourselves if we fall from grace in moments
of weakness. We no longer expect to be perfect.
As science opens up the might and vastness of the universe,
we become aware of the smallness and fragility of humankind.
That the good and evil forces of the universe should seek to
do battle, using us as pawns, seems increasingly ridiculous. ..."
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
Citizen Jimserac
wrote:
>
> read more »
Please continue to post and respond to the crazy bastard. I've gotten
sick and tired of seeing his self promotion, disguised as religious
exhortations appear in this and other inappropriate newsgroups.
Anyone who sees this "Dr." is an idiot - the guy is obviously
unstable. Sooner or later, one of the spirits is going to give him
the WRONG advice.
Citizen Jimserac
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>Just in case you're wondering, yes, the topic of this
>post is that god-forsaken domain known as HELL!
>
>In my opinion, humankind would best be served by
>leaving such mythical horror concepts in our fearful
>and hateful past. We know better, now, that such
>places only exist in the manipulative minds of people
>without a clue about reality, kindness, fairness, love,
>peace, and nature, don't we?
No:
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
While the eyes of those of us, who are Christians (either Jew or
gentile), remain ever heavenward, knowledge of hell serves well to
motivate us to be mindful of WDJW and pray for the perishing souls of
our non-Christian neighbors.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus, so that you would become a new creature
in Christ, thereby saved by Jesus from everlasting torment in hell:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://WDJW.net
Gary Woods
>Anyone who sees this "Dr." is an idiot - the guy is obviously
>unstable.
And anybody who quotes the _entire_ freakin' loon post is guaranteed a
visit from the magick plonker.
I'm cranky today.
Too many troll feeders all of a sudden.
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Hell is real?
Hell is death?
Hell is all in the mind?
Hell is torment everlasting?
Hell is evil anti-human myth?
Hell is our existence on earth?
Hell is separation from God (Allah)?
Apparently, opinions differ on such matters and,
for folks who believe hell is a real aspect pertain-
ing to a supposed afterlife realm, opinions on hell
are simply a reflection of whatever humans wish
to imagine hell is, as are all supernatural beings /
entities / places / claims -- "make believe" gone
wild ...
Most muslims who are brought up with "the quran
is the word of god (allah)" notions, most biblical
literalists are of a christian persuasion, and other
variations of religious fundamentalism still hold
fast to the immortal torment concepts which have
fallen into widespread disrepute since the age
of enlightenment ...
- - -
Hell and Damnation, from a Spurgeon sermon
http://www.biblebb.com/quotes/hell.htm
Excerpts: {never mind - go to the link to see the
type of hell _____ (some? many? most?) foist
upon their flocks, and ponder the impact those
types of sermons might have on children}
- - -
Hell and the Church of England
http://tmatt.gospelcom.net/column/1996/01/31/
Excerpt: ... most liberals say hell doesn't exist,
while many traditionalists still preach about an
eternal lake of fire. Others teach that damned
souls are annihilated at death or consumed after
some period of punishment. In this age domin-
ated by counseling, many now describe hell in
terms of souls undergoing treatments from a
"divine therapist," said Walls. The assumption
is that a perfect God will -- given eternity -- heal
even the most incorrigible sinners. ...
- - -
From a Newsweek article, August 12, 2002, on
heaven and hell ...
Excerpts:
... Aug. 12 issue - The most famous sermon in
American history was a graphic evocation of the
horrors of the damned in hell. As Jonathan Ed-
wards expanded on his subject, "Sinners in the
Hands of an Angry God," so many moans and
cries rose from his proper New England congre-
gation that the learned theologian had to pause
while his listeners recoiled in fear of their fate
in the life to come. That was on July 16, 1741.
SUCH A SERMON could not be preached today
--not even by Billy Graham, who has eschewed
the fire-and-brimstone sermons of his youth. If
the modern pulpit is any index, hell has disap-
peared from the modern religious imagination,
and so has Edwards's angry God.
[editorial aside -- apparently, the writer of this
article hasn't spent much time in the bible belt,
as hellfire-and-brimstone sermons are still "hot-
ter than hell", especially in tent revivals, amongst
the likes of Pentecostals, Southern Baptists, and
other fundamentalist-based church organizations in
significant segments of the U.S. of A.]
Historians tell us that hell began to fade, at
least among liberal Protestants, during the 19th
century. By the end of the millennium, it was a
doctrine that most Christians cheerfully ignored.
Today, few Roman Catholics line up on Saturday
nights to confess their sins, even the "mortal"
kind.
For born-again Christians, hell functions mainly
as a goad for the unconverted. Once saved, the
twice born have only to worry --as Graham himself
once put it-- about how high a place they'll reach
in heaven.
On television, celebrity preachers discourage
negativity. Robert Schuller says he hasn't preached
on hell in 40 years. Asked which kind of God they
believe in, most Christians prefer to think of him
as a friend in high places. (Apparently no one reads
the Book of Job anymore.) And hell, for those who
think about it at all, is a place for other people.
... Some Jewish sages have concluded that the
wicked perish in the grave; only the righteous will
be resurrected to eternal life when the Messiah
comes.
Christianity has traditionally affirmed much more.
At death, each individual is judged and consigned
to heaven, hell or --especially in Roman Catholic
tradition-- to purgatory for further spiritual win-
nowing prior to entering heaven.
As in all matters not specifically covered by the
Quran, the Muslim imagination is the most vivid
in filling in the gaps. According to various folk
traditions, the wicked suffer a painful wrenching
of soul from body. Even in the grave, the hot flames
of hell sear the bodies of suicides and other ter-
rible sinners, while their errant souls writhe in
a foul pit of snakes. ...
- - - end excerpts - - -
- - -
HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL !!!!!!
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/hell.htm
... god-forsaken domain known as HELL! In
my opinion, humankind would best be served
by leaving such mythical horror concepts in ...
- - -
Islam Hell
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/islam_hell.htm
Just did a search for the word 'hell' in the quran
... 95 references found ... the same search in
the 'hadith' ... 208 references found ...
- - -
Why Children Should Be Protected
From the Bible and Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/children_protected.htm
Burnin' in HELL tends to scare the HELL out of
children. ... HELL verses in the christian bible ...
- - -
One Ticket to Heaven and Hell, Please ...
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/ticket_to_heaven_and_hell.htm
... it's travel to Heaven and Hell day, whoosh
-- we're off to see the wizard ... wizard of heaven
and hell ... Heaven - hey - far out ... Hell - bummer,
dude, too hot ...
- - -
Belief in Hell - What Have You Got to Lose?
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/belief_in_hell.htm
If you believe in hell, you've got everything to
lose - this life, wasted on non-existent fantasies,
gods, and demons that don't exist. This life, 100
percent certain ...
- - -
The Nature of Non-Acceptance ...
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/nature_of_non_acceptance.htm
... How do you get to heaven and avoid hell, per
Islam? How do you get to heaven and avoid hell,
per Hinduism? How do you get to heaven and
avoid hell, per Buddhism? How do you ...
- - -
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER Daily - 091601
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/prohumanistfreeloverdaily/091601.htm
... Hell On Earth ... Here is one element of what
we of non-faith are up against when it comes to
the judeo-christian-islamic view ...
- - -
The Hell Problem
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/the_hell_problem.htm
"... Of interest to both Christians and Muslims,
a recent article in which a Muslim states 'How
the idea of hell drove me from Islam' ..."
- - -
The Nature of Christian Brainwashing
- Immoral Path to Delusion
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/nature_of_brainwashing.htm
Cover up the downsides of religious history,
threaten children with eternal damnation if they
don't believe the christian view, and treat all
other religions and freedom ...
- - -
Robert G. Ingersoll
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/robert_g_ingersoll.htm
... For the first time I understood the dogma of
eternal pain -- appreciated "the glad tidings of
great joy." For the first time my imagination
grasped the height and depth of the Christian
horror. Then I said: "It is a lie, and I hate your
religion. If it is true, I hate your God." ...
- - -
No to Faith
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/social_legal/no_to_faith.htm
... god is dead and no one cares
if there is a hell i'll see you there ...
- - -
Mark Twain
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/mark_twain.htm
... There is one notable thing about our Chris-
tianity: bad, bloody, merciless, money-grabbing
and predatory as it is -- in our country particularly,
and in all other Christian countries in a somewhat
modified degree -- it is still a hundred times bet-
ter than the Christianity of the Bible, with its prodi-
gious crime - the invention of Hell. ...
- - -
Closing thought on the ramifications of the decline
of religion and the rise of naturalism as revealed
via scientific inquiry ...
Wednesday, 14 August, 2002
Atheist gives Thought for the Day
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/england/2193321.stm
Excerpts:
... A scientist has become the first atheist to deliver a
Thought for the Day on the BBC's Radio 4 Today pro-
gramme. In his two-and-a-half minute slot, Professor
Richard Dawkins from Oxford University, argued sci-
ence gave a better explanation of life than religion.
... In his talk, Prof Dawkins argued that science had
managed to explain many of the mysteries of life and
that believing that God could protect us was an "infan-
tile regression".
... He said: "We have been born and we are going to
die, but before we die we have time to understand why
we were born. "Humanity can now leave the crybaby
phase and finally come of age - that is a thought for
more than one day." ...
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Wes Groleau" <Grolea...@FreeShell.org> wrote
in message news:gpgglt$svo$1...@news.motzarella.org...
> [...]
>
> Reply to the group if you must. But I can't afford to
> waste any more time on someone with the poor judgment
> to support Chung's cross-posting campaign.
Silence is the 2nd-greatest evangelist.
I'm speaking up in variance with Andrew B.
Chung's point-of-view. -If-, at any point,
Andrew B. Chung would like to enter into
a legitimate debate, with each of us fully
responding to the entire text of the other's
message, I'll be more than happy to do so.
Thus far, he's been extremely reluctant to
do so, but -if- he ever does do so, I'll be
more than happy to address every point he
makes -if- he addresses every point I make,
rather than simply responding to the first
sentence or part of a sentence (usually with
a canned post and very little, if any, speak-
ing to the post to which he is responding)
and ignoring the rest.
> --
> Wes Groleau
>
> "Grant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
> the courage to change the one I can;
> and the wisdom to know it's me."
> -- unknown
The Problem of Silence
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/philosophy_freelover/problem_of_silence.htm
So, a bunch of people are gathered together and
someone says "Thank god ...." and the conversation
continues and discussions about church and making
sure the children go to church and so on and so forth
and ...
So, you don't believe in any of what's being said.
What are your options?
...
- - -
Silence is Golden?
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/philosophy_freelover/silence_is_golden.htm
...
As for the desire of more than a few to maintain / per-
petuate / propagate the blind faith trap, implied by the
disdain of more than a few regarding the advantages
of non-faith being pointed out to christians, that's a
typical modus operandi promoted by religious institu-
tions.
...
- - -
Teaching 'Thinking' [originally posted July 20, 2001]
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/philosophy_freelover/teaching_thinking.htm
Had an interesting conversation with my dad, yesterday. We
actually talked about God, my atheistic views, his seminary
teaching, his life as a pastor. {insert today -- my dad is a
Southern Baptist preacher}
Many issues came up, all of which we're quite attuned to in
this newsgroup (alt.atheism) {insert today -- back in 2001,
when this was orginally posted, I was very active in that
newsgroup}
One point I brought up was 'thinking' and my experience of
not being encouraged to 'think' within the atmosphere of my
upbringing in the Southern Baptist church.
My dad mentioned that 'thinking' was currently a subject of
great debate within the Southern Baptist faith. He encouraged
me to seek "the reality of God" [implication, God was to be
found and the manner in which God was found was not, for
me, anyway, part of the traditional Southern Baptist biblical
literalism, but he did refer to the bible as the historical narra-
tives at one point].
Many issues came up, which I won't go into, but I'll just say
that compared to the stereotypical image of fundamentalism
and Southern Baptist being one in the same, my dad departs
from that, while at the same time remaining frustratingly tied to
something I can't quite put my finger on... but here's my take
on it ...
I think my dad sees the whole religion journey and God and
belief in God (of various ways) as requisite for good (or, at
least, that's what I picked up from our recent conversation)
as he stated (and we've all heard this before) "why be good
if there is no god?" In any case, he sees good and religion as
closely tied, with his own personal God interpretation not requi-
site to this good, as each must find his/her way to the reality of
God in his/her own way (I may have gotten that wrong, but
that's my interpretation of what his views are).
He said he was taught to think in his seminary and when I asked
him if doubt was part of that, as doubt was required for thinking,
he said doubt was part of that and unanswered doubts, he dis-
missed.
As for expressing one's views, he felt that each person must be
dealt with on their terms and that a position such as I've adopted,
that of 'there being no god', is ... [well, many things, but suffice to
say, he pitched for the standard 'if you don't believe, at least be
agnostic about it' (implication - silent and unsure of yourself, as
god/no god are exactly the same, logically speaking)] ... I, of
course, differ with that and expressed my view of there being no
god out there and with no god out there, anything folks say about
god is a mere reflection of that which it is to be human, no more,
no less.
Anyway, I found the 'thinking' aspect of great interest, as I really
did find that aspect to be absent from my church upbringing and
without thought, what can religion be but a mindless following of
whatever church leaders want their followers to believe ...
The conversation was civil, we all love one another, and I told
my dad that he should be proud that he raised me to think and
should reject (and dismiss) those who criticize him for not raising
me to be a mindless drone/clone of his views on God/religion (as
is the case with far too many children) ...
I love my dad - he's so very cool.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>Hell is real?
> Hell is death?
> Hell is all in the mind?
> Hell is torment everlasting?
> Hell is evil anti-human myth?
> Hell is our existence on earth?
> Hell is separation from God (Allah)?
We, who are Jesus' disciples (either Jew or gentile), have been given
the understanding that hell is such an unimaginably terrible final
destination that one would not wish this even for those who hate us
the most:
http://bibleprobe.com/backfromthedead.htm
"In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far
away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham,
have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water
and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'" (Luke
16:23-24)
This understanding serves well to motivate us to really want to pray
for your perishing soul especially after we have witnessed that the
existence of hell has served only to make non-christians like you
angry and less receptive to having civil discussions about GOD.
Bottom line:
The existence of hell has saved no souls because only Jesus saves.
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Burnin' in HELL tends to scare the HELL out of children. Call
it the X-rated fear and scare tactics of the Bible and Christianity.
- - - - - - -
The following should be sung to that classic tune, Jesus
Loves the Little Children:
Jesus Loves the little children,
all the children of the world,
red and yellow black and white,
they are precious in his sight,
Jesus loves the little children of the world....
- - - - - - -
Caution - the following is unfit for young children to read or
be exposed to. DO NOT allow young children to read this.
Thank you.
- - - - - - -
_23_ New Testament reasons (mentions of HELL) to protect
children from the Bible and Christianity:
- - - - - - - New Testament HELL - - - - - - -
Mathew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with
his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:
and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger
of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in
danger of HELL fire.
Mathew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and
cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy
members should perish, and not that thy whole body should
be cast into HELL.
Mathew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and
cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy
members should perish, and not that thy whole body should
be cast into HELL.
Mathew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy
both soul and body in HELL.
Mathew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto
heaven, shalt be brought down to HELL: for if the mighty works,
which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would
have remained until this day.
Mathew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and
upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of HELL
shall not prevail against it.
Mathew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast
it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather
than having two eyes to be cast into HELL fire.
Mathew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he
is made, ye make him twofold more the child of HELL than
yourselves.
Mathew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye
escape the damnation of HELL?
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for
thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into
HELL, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee
to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into HELL,
into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for
thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having
two eyes to be cast into HELL fire:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt
be thrust down to HELL.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him,
which after he hath killed hath power to cast into HELL; yea, I say
unto you, Fear him.
Luke 16:23 And in HELL he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and
seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on
me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water,
and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in HELL, neither wilt
thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,
that his soul was not left in HELL, neither his flesh did see
corruption.
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the
tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and
setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of HELL.
2 Peter 2: 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast
them down to HELL, and delivered them into chains of darkness,
to be reserved unto judgment;
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold,
I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of HELL and
of death.
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his
name that sat on him was Death, and HELL followed with him.
And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth,
to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the
beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and HELL delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and HELL were cast into the lake
of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the
book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
_31_ Old Testament reasons (mentions of HELL) to protect
children from the Bible and Christianity:
- - - - - - - Old Testament HELL - - - - - - -
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall
burn unto the lowest HELL, and shall consume the earth with her
increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Deuteronomy 32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend
mine arrows upon them.
Deuteronomy 32:24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured
with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the
teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
Deuteronomy 32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall
destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with
the man of gray hairs.
Deuteronomy 32:26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would
make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
2 Samuel 22: 6 The sorrows of HELL compassed me about; the
snares of death prevented me;
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than
HELL; what canst thou know?
Job 26:5 Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the
inhabitants thereof.
Job 26:6 HELL is naked before him, and destruction hath no
covering.
Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into HELL, and all the
nations that forget God.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in HELL; neither
wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalms 18:5 The sorrows of HELL compassed me about: the
snares of death prevented me.
Psalms 18:6 In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried
unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry
came before him, even into his ears.
Psalms 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations
also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
Psalms 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire
out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psalms 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down
quick into HELL: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among
them.
Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast
delivered my soul from the lowest HELL.
Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains
of HELL gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make
my bed in HELL, behold, thou art there.
Proverbs 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on
HELL.
Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to HELL, going down to the
chambers of death.
Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and
that her guests are in the depths of HELL.
Proverbs 15:11 HELL and destruction are before the LORD:
how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may
depart from HELL beneath.
[is the next verse a cause of much of the child abuse in society?
you be the judge]
Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou
beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt
deliver his soul from HELL.
Proverbs 27:20 HELL and destruction are never full; so the eyes
of man are never satisfied.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore HELL hath enlarged herself, and opened
her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude,
and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isaiah 14:9 HELL from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at
thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones
of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the
nations.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to HELL, to the sides
of the pit.
Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with
death, and with HELL are we at agreement; when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have
made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and
your agreement with HELL shall not stand; when the overflowing
scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isaiah 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst
increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and
didst debase thyself even unto HELL.
Ezekiel 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall,
when I cast him down to HELL with them that descend into the pit:
and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that
drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Ezekiel 31:17 They also went down into HELL with him unto them
that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt
under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Ezekiel 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out
of the midst of HELL with them that help him: they are gone down,
they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
Ezekiel 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen
of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to HELL with their
weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads,
but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the
terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into HELL, thence shall mine hand take
them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the
LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of HELL cried I, and
thou heardest my voice.
Habakkuk 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is
a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as
HELL, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto
him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
I
> WHERE IS HELL?
Heaven, according to the bible, is supposedly just beyond the blue dome
which covers the flat earth and hell is just beneath the flat earth.
For us Aussies at the "arse end of the world" (exPM Paul Keating's phrase)
that poses a big problem. "Up" for us is the USA's "down" therefore our
heaven is their hell and our hell is their heaven (sounds like a William
Blake poem).
> THE DEVIL
The Devil (Satan) is really Jesus according to the bible ..............
Venus, the "Morning Star" is REALLY SATAN according to Isaiah
14:12-15:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut
down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!You said in your heart, 'I
will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; I will ascend above
the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AND, OF COURSE, SATAN IS JESUS because Rev. 22:16 states:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I
am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... and you KNOW the bible is "God's Word" so it MUST be correct!
--
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
FUNDY FUNHOUSE -
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/
- a resource on the current Fundamentalist Dark Age and Christian
fundamentalism.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> Silence is the 2nd-greatest evangelist.
A mute point (pun-intended) here on Usenet, which remains a text-based
medium, where though much is typed and electronically posted, nothing
is audible.
> I'm speaking up in variance with Andrew B. Chung's point-of-view.
Have not heard anything from you.
Nor have I read anything that successfully counters what the Holy
Spirit has guided me to write concerning GOD's point-of-view.
It remains my personal choice to continue to receive the guidance of
the Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write especially here on
Usenet so that my point-of-view is out-of-view :-)
> -If-, at any point,
> Andrew B. Chung would like to enter into
> a legitimate debate, with each of us fully
> responding to the entire text of the other's
> message, I'll be more than happy to do so.
GOD's purpose for me here remains to inform and not to either debate
or convince others.
> Thus far, he's been extremely reluctant to
> do so, but -if- he ever does do so, I'll be
> more than happy to address every point he
> makes -if- he addresses every point I make,
> rather than simply responding to the first
> sentence or part of a sentence (usually with
> a canned post and very little, if any, speak-
> ing to the post to which he is responding)
> and ignoring the rest.
It remains my personal choice to cross only the bridges GOD allows me
to reach.
> >
> > "Grant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
> > the courage to change the one I can;
> > and the wisdom to know it's me."
> > -- unknown
>
> The Problem of Silence
> http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/philosophy_freelover/problem_of_silence.htm
>
> So, a bunch of people are gathered together and
> someone says "Thank god ...." and the conversation
> continues and discussions about church and making
> sure the children go to church and so on and so forth
> and ...
>
> So, you don't believe in any of what's being said.
> What are your options?
Would simply tell them that going to church has not saved any souls
because only Jesus saves perishing souls. GOD is not pleased by folks
going to church for the wrong reasons. Instead, He wants folks going
to church willing to worship Him in truth and spirit.
Bottom line:
The purpose of having Christians attend church is for making disciples
of all nationalities teaching them about keeping all of Jesus'
commandments (WDJW) and baptizing them in the Holy Spirit as written
in Matthew 28:20...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bd20d7c4fe878897?
... so that all would be ready for Jesus' physical return for us to
meet Him in the air:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/386f56c2f6d0b154?
> ...
>
> - - -
>
> Silence is Golden?
> http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/philosophy_freelover/silence_is_golden.htm
>
> ...
>
> As for the desire of more than a few to maintain / per-
> petuate / propagate the blind faith trap, implied by the
> disdain of more than a few regarding the advantages
> of non-faith being pointed out to christians, that's a
> typical modus operandi promoted by religious institu-
> tions.
Not for the discerning who understand that Christians are simply those
who belong to Christ because of what GOD has done and not by what
mortal humans have done.
If your dad can say "Jesus is LORD," he will be in heaven after
leaving this planet and you will see him there.
If your dad can not say "Jesus is LORD," there is the possibility that
you will not see him in heaven even though he is a Southern Baptist
pastor.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote ...
>> "Wes Groleau" <Grolea...@FreeShell.org> wrote
>> in message news:gpgglt$svo$1...@news.motzarella.org...
>> > Reply to the group if you must. But I can't afford to
>> > waste any more time on someone with the poor judgment
>> > to support Chung's cross-posting campaign.
>> Silence is the 2nd-greatest evangelist.
> A mute point (pun-intended) here on Usenet, which remains a text-based
> medium, where though much is typed and electronically posted, nothing
> is audible.
Everything is readable. People who are
silent in usenet aren't readable. Those
who doubt and disbelieve who remain
silent aren't readable.
>> I'm speaking up in variance with Andrew B. Chung's point-of-view.
> Have not heard anything from you.
You've read much from me.
> Nor have I read anything that successfully counters what the Holy
> Spirit has guided me to write concerning GOD's point-of-view.
You write. The holy spirit is myth. Your
writing is based on your exposure to the
myths of christianity.
> It remains my personal choice to continue to receive the guidance of
> the Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write especially here on
> Usenet so that my point-of-view is out-of-view :-)
You and those who've influenced you are
contributors to what you write.
>> -If-, at any point,
>> Andrew B. Chung would like to enter into
>> a legitimate debate, with each of us fully
>> responding to the entire text of the other's
>> message, I'll be more than happy to do so.
> GOD's purpose for me here remains to inform and not to either debate
> or convince others.
Your purpose here is to promote religion/faith/
belief, and in doing so, you would do well to
engage in debate with those who differ with
your views.
>> Thus far, he's been extremely reluctant to
>> do so, but -if- he ever does do so, I'll be
>> more than happy to address every point he
>> makes -if- he addresses every point I make,
>> rather than simply responding to the first
>> sentence or part of a sentence (usually with
>> a canned post and very little, if any, speak-
>> ing to the post to which he is responding)
>> and ignoring the rest.
> It remains my personal choice to cross only the bridges GOD allows me
> to reach.
You have done well in this particular reply in
responding to what I've written, rather than
propping up your God-pitch with the 1st
sentence (or part of the 1st sentence) and
ignoring the rest of my post, as you've typi-
cally done until your latest reply in this thread.
>> > "Grant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
>> > the courage to change the one I can;
>> > and the wisdom to know it's me."
>> > -- unknown
>> The Problem of Silence
>> http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/philosophy_freelover/problem_of_silence.htm
>>
>> So, a bunch of people are gathered together and
>> someone says "Thank god ...." and the conversation
>> continues and discussions about church and making
>> sure the children go to church and so on and so forth
>> and ...
>>
>> So, you don't believe in any of what's being said.
>> What are your options?
> Would simply tell them that going to church has not saved any souls
> because only Jesus saves perishing souls. GOD is not pleased by folks
> going to church for the wrong reasons. Instead, He wants folks going
> to church willing to worship Him in truth and spirit.
I think that christians, who would be the
persons thanking god and discussing
church and children going would not be
likely to be uninformed regarding chris-
tianity. They might very well be unin-
formed about the alternatives regarding
disbelief and doubt which I suggest
would, with a bit of diplomacy, be
worth discussing with them.
> Bottom line:
>
> The purpose of having Christians attend church is for making disciples
> of all nationalities teaching them about keeping all of Jesus'
> commandments (WDJW) and baptizing them in the Holy Spirit as written
> in Matthew 28:20...
The purpose in church attending is silent
acquiescence to ancient traditions and
myths, indoctrination, and brainwashing,
along with the social pressure to induce
folks to believe in whatever the pastor
says and whatever the songs that are
sung say, and in whomever offers pro-
God pitches during the service, and
during the social support atmosphere
that transpires before and after the ser-
vice.
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bd20d7c4fe878897?
>
> ... so that all would be ready for Jesus' physical return for us to
> meet Him in the air:
Jesus is not coming -- it's a myth.
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/386f56c2f6d0b154?
To whom did Jesus make his first post-
resurrection appearance, per the bible
books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John,
and 1 Corinthians? Clue -- contradic-
tions exist in those books:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/first_ap.html
>> ...
>>
>> - - -
>>
>> Silence is Golden?
>> http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/philosophy_freelover/silence_is_golden.htm
>>
>> ...
>>
>> As for the desire of more than a few to maintain / per-
>> petuate / propagate the blind faith trap, implied by the
>> disdain of more than a few regarding the advantages
>> of non-faith being pointed out to christians, that's a
>> typical modus operandi promoted by religious institu-
>> tions.
> Not for the discerning who understand that Christians are simply those
> who belong to Christ because of what GOD has done and not by what
> mortal humans have done.
Christians are simply those brainwashed,
most from a very young age, into religious
faith, that of Christianity. God believers
include christians, muslims, Jews, Hindus,
and other religious faiths that believe in
a deity or deities.
As for expectations of silence, that's wide-
spread in the church, and expectations are
high that dissent, doubt, and disbelief will
be kept away from the faithful. Even many
of those who leave religion tend to retain
the part of their religious indoctrination
that has taught them to feel guilty about
speaking up in opposition to religion.
His naturalistic fate is the same as everyone
elses. If I see him, it will be as part of a
naturalistic continuum, and won't be part
of any religious myth.
> If your dad can not say "Jesus is LORD," there is the possibility that
> you will not see him in heaven even though he is a Southern Baptist
> pastor.
The edicts under which my dad's belief
is structured are leveraged off of believing
Jesus was real, really died, really spent 3
days in hell, really rose from the dead,
really ascended into heaven. As for you
"Jesus is Lord" obsession, remind me,
what scripture are you getting that from?
>
> May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you come to trust the
> truth, Who is Jesus:
Jesus is myth. I don't view Jesus as truth,
as I must encompass freethought and be
convinced that something is true, and
in that, always examining the evidence
for whatever it reveals. The evidence
in the case of Jesus reveals myth.
A website where you're repeating the Jesus
fable.
>
> Amen.
>
> Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
>
> Andrew <><
> --
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
That link points to type 2 diabetes info
and your standard religious pitch message
which you repeat (in spam mode) daily,
at least once, sometimes many times.
By the way, you and I made it through
-3- posts, all the way through, in this
thread. Thanks for replying to the entire
post. I'll reply to your entire posts in the
future -if- you come up with original
material, not spam (repeat) of the same
stuff over and over.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>
> >> Silence is the 2nd-greatest evangelist.
>
> > A mute point (pun-intended) here on Usenet, which remains a text-based
> > medium, where though much is typed and electronically posted, nothing
> > is audible.
>
> Everything is readable. People who are
> silent in usenet aren't readable. Those
> who doubt and disbelieve who remain
> silent aren't readable.
When you try to publicly say "Jesus is LORD" there has been only
silence because the Holy Spirit is not willing to help those who do
not trust the truth, Who is Jesus.
> >> I'm speaking up in variance with Andrew B. Chung's point-of-view.
>
> > Have not heard anything from you.
>
> You've read much from me.
Am still waiting to read your answer to the very simple question:
Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
> > Nor have I read anything that successfully counters what the Holy
> > Spirit has guided me to write concerning GOD's point-of-view.
>
> You write. The holy spirit is myth.
If the latter were true, you would be able to publicly say "Jesus is
LORD."
> Your writing is based on your exposure to the
> myths of christianity.
If that were true, you would be writing the same way because your
exposure to the myths of Christian religion is even greater since your
dad has served as a Southern Baptist Pastor during your childhood.
Myths do arise from religion which is man-made and not from
Christianity, which remains simply a relationship with LORD Jesus
Christ.
This is why it remains my personal choice to not be religious as
should be evident by how GOD has me teaching Our daughter:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/56fbfa52c4d90d8a?
Many religious Christians continue to hold the false belief of co-
redemption which leads to the disillusionment that your dad has likely
felt when he discovered that you have not been saved by his very best
efforts to bring you to Christ through religious Church worship
attendance and schooling by a dad with seminary training.
Bottom line:
Only GOD saves and He saves only per His infinite will.
Can your dad publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
If your dad can not publicly say "Jesus is LORD" then he's not saved
either despite all the seminary training just as Nicodemus was not
saved despite his high stature as a religious leader in his time.
> > It remains my personal choice to continue to receive the guidance of
> > the Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write especially here on
> > Usenet so that my point-of-view is out-of-view :-)
>
> You and those who've influenced you are
> contributors to what you write.
What the Holy Spirit has guided me to write here has not been written
before anywhere else. The knowledge herein can have come only from
the Holy Spirit, Who is GOD.
> >> -If-, at any point,
> >> Andrew B. Chung would like to enter into
> >> a legitimate debate, with each of us fully
> >> responding to the entire text of the other's
> >> message, I'll be more than happy to do so.
>
> > GOD's purpose for me here remains to inform and not to either debate
> > or convince others.
>
> Your purpose here is to promote religion/faith/
> belief, and in doing so, you would do well to
> engage in debate with those who differ with
> your views.
Incorrect.
It remains wise to do what GOD desires (WDJW) and not what others
want.
> >> Thus far, he's been extremely reluctant to
> >> do so, but -if- he ever does do so, I'll be
> >> more than happy to address every point he
> >> makes -if- he addresses every point I make,
> >> rather than simply responding to the first
> >> sentence or part of a sentence (usually with
> >> a canned post and very little, if any, speak-
> >> ing to the post to which he is responding)
> >> and ignoring the rest.
>
> > It remains my personal choice to cross only the bridges GOD allows me
> > to reach.
>
> You have done well in this particular reply in
> responding to what I've written, rather than
> propping up your God-pitch with the 1st
> sentence (or part of the 1st sentence) and
> ignoring the rest of my post, as you've typi-
> cally done until your latest reply in this thread.
It remains my personal choice to continue to receive the guidance of
the Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write as evident by the
following:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
> >> > "Grant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
> >> > the courage to change the one I can;
> >> > and the wisdom to know it's me."
> >> > -- unknown
>
> >> The Problem of Silence
> >> http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/philosophy_freelover/problem_of_silence.htm
> >>
> >> So, a bunch of people are gathered together and
> >> someone says "Thank god ...." and the conversation
> >> continues and discussions about church and making
> >> sure the children go to church and so on and so forth
> >> and ...
> >>
> >> So, you don't believe in any of what's being said.
> >> What are your options?
>
> > Would simply tell them that going to church has not saved any souls
> > because only Jesus saves perishing souls. GOD is not pleased by folks
> > going to church for the wrong reasons. Instead, He wants folks going
> > to church willing to worship Him in truth and spirit.
>
> I think that christians, who would be the
> persons thanking god and discussing
> church and children going would not be
> likely to be uninformed regarding chris-
> tianity.
Your own personal experience as reported by you is evidence to the
contrary.
Your dad, a Southern Baptist Pastor, did not know that you were going
to church and participating in communion while still an unrepentent
and unforgiven sinner.
This does mean many religious Christians are misinformed through the
false teaching of co-redemption .
> They might very well be unin-
> formed about the alternatives regarding
> disbelief and doubt which I suggest
> would, with a bit of diplomacy, be
> worth discussing with them.
Being misinformed thereby become trapped in falsehood is a much more
serious problem than being uninformed.
> > Bottom line:
> >
> > The purpose of having Christians attend church is for making disciples
> > of all nationalities teaching them about keeping all of Jesus'
> > commandments (WDJW) and baptizing them in the Holy Spirit as written
> > in Matthew 28:20...
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bd20d7c4fe878897?
>
> The purpose in church attending is silent
> acquiescence to ancient traditions and
> myths, indoctrination, and brainwashing,
> along with the social pressure to induce
> folks to believe in whatever the pastor
> says and whatever the songs that are
> sung say, and in whomever offers pro-
> God pitches during the service, and
> during the social support atmosphere
> that transpires before and after the ser-
> vice.
The latter would be a false non-biblical purpose unwittingly
propagated by people who have been spiritually blinded by the world's
lies.
> > ... so that all would be ready for Jesus' physical return for us to
> > meet Him in the air:
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/386f56c2f6d0b154?
>
> Jesus is not coming -- it's a myth.
If that were true, we would not be getting ever hungrier.
> To whom did Jesus make his first post-
> resurrection appearance, per the bible
> books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John,
> and 1 Corinthians? Clue -- contradic-
> tions exist in those books:
> http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/first_ap.html
GOD is able to appear to many different people at many different
places simultaneously because He is not contrained by time. GOD is
nontemporal existing at both the beginning and end of time.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End." -- LORD Jesus
Christ.
Amen.
LORD Jesus Christ is GOD ! ! !
"My LORD and my GOD ! ! !" -- Thomas upon seeing the risen Jesus
Christ, Who has taken up being GOD again after serving His stint as
the mortal Son of Man.
Jesus would have rebuked Thomas if He were not GOD ! ! !
> >> ...
> >>
> >> - - -
> >>
> >> Silence is Golden?
> >> http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/philosophy_freelover/silence_is_golden.htm
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >> As for the desire of more than a few to maintain / per-
> >> petuate / propagate the blind faith trap, implied by the
> >> disdain of more than a few regarding the advantages
> >> of non-faith being pointed out to christians, that's a
> >> typical modus operandi promoted by religious institu-
> >> tions.
>
> > Not for the discerning who understand that Christians are simply those
> > who belong to Christ because of what GOD has done and not by what
> > mortal humans have done.
>
> Christians are simply those brainwashed,
> most from a very young age, into religious
> faith, that of Christianity.
Incorrect for the reasons given above.
> God believers
> include christians, muslims, Jews, Hindus,
> and other religious faiths that believe in
> a deity or deities.
Those who belong to Jesus are the true Christians. They are the ones
who have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. These are
the ones who can publicly say "Jesus is LORD."
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)
Amen.
This fact is simply not taught by religious Christians.
Instead, we, who are Jesus' disciples (either Jew or gentile), are
teaching this outside of church buildings (typically after we are
ushered out :-) just as Jesus did most of His teaching outside with
the sky serving as the roof for His Tabernacle.
> As for expectations of silence, that's wide-
> spread in the church, and expectations are
> high that dissent, doubt, and disbelief will
> be kept away from the faithful. Even many
> of those who leave religion tend to retain
> the part of their religious indoctrination
> that has taught them to feel guilty about
> speaking up in opposition to religion.
Again, Christianity is not a religion but rather a very personal
relationship with LORD Jesus Christ.
The reality of heaven is by definition not a myth especially in this
context.
> > If your dad can not say "Jesus is LORD," there is the possibility that
> > you will not see him in heaven even though he is a Southern Baptist
> > pastor.
>
> The edicts under which my dad's belief
> is structured are leveraged off of believing
> Jesus was real, really died, really spent 3
> days in hell, really rose from the dead,
> really ascended into heaven. As for you
> "Jesus is Lord" obsession, remind me,
> what scripture are you getting that from?
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)
Amen.
"The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke
6:5)
Amen.
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: GOD has made this Jesus,
whom you crucified, both LORD and Christ." (Acts 2:36)
Amen.
"You know the message GOD sent to the people of Israel, telling the
good news of peace through Jesus Christ, Who is LORD of all." (Acts
10:36)
Amen.
"That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is LORD,' and believe in
your heart that GOD raised Him from the dead, you will be
saved." (Romans 10:9)
Amen.
Bottom line:
Those who do not have the help of the Holy Spirit to publicly say
"Jesus is LORD" are **not** saved.
"yet for us there is but one GOD, the Father, from Whom all things
came and for Whom we live; and there is but one LORD, Jesus Christ,
through Whom all things came and through Whom we live." (1 Cor 8:6)
Amen.
"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature GOD,
did not consider equality with GOD something to be grasped,
but made Himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Therefore GOD exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of GOD the Father." (Philippians 2:5-11)
Amen.
"I am the way and the truth and the life." -- LORD Jesus Christ (John
14:6)
Amen.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Naj
wrote:
>
> read more »
CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY
by Dr.Zakir Naik
I .
Position of Jesus (pbuh) in Islam:
(i)
Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of
faith to believe in Jesus (pbuh). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not
believe in Jesus (pbuh).
(ii)
We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt).
(iii)
We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male
intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe.
(iv)
We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (pbuh).
(v)
We believe that he gave life to the dead with God’s permission.
(iv)
We believe that he healed those born blind, and the lepers with God’s
permission.
II
CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY:
1.
Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed Divinity
One may ask, if both Muslims and Christians love and respect Jesus
(pbuh), where exactly is the parting of ways? The major difference
between Islam and Christianity is the Christians’ insistence on the
supposed divinity of Christ (pbuh). A study of the Christian
scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact
there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where
Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me".
In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in
which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the
Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):
(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]
(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]
(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]
(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]
(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my
judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the
Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]
2.
The Mission of Jesus Christ (pbuh) – to Fulfill the Law
Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity for himself. He clearly announced
the nature of his mission. Jesus (pbuh) was sent by God to confirm the
previous Judaic law. This is clearly evident in the following
statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in the Gospel of Mathew:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am
not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till
heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass
from the law, till all be fulfilled.
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and
shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of
heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be
called great in the kingdom of heaven."
"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the
righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter
into the kingdom of heaven."
[The Bible, Mathew 5:17-20]
3.
God Sent Jesus' (pbuh)
The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the
following verses:
(i)
"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent
me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]
(ii)
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]
4.
Jesus Refuted even the Remotest Suggestion of his Divinity
Consider the following incident mentioned in the Bible:
"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing
shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’
And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good
but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
commandments.’ "
[The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]
Jesus (pbuh) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise,
man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or
believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he
said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments.
It is indeed striking to note the difference between the words of
Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the Christian dogma of salvation through the
sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).
5.
Jesus (pbuh) of Nazareth – a Man Approved of God
The following statement from the Bible supports the Islamic belief
that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God.
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved
of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by
him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."
[The Bible, Acts 2:22]
6.
The First Commandment is that God is One
The Bible does not support the Christian belief in trinity at all. One
of the scribes once asked Jesus (pbuh) as to which was the first
commandment of all, to which Jesus (pbuh) merely repeated what Moses
(pbuh) had said earlier:
"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adonai Ikhad."
This is a Hebrew quotation, which means:
"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
[The Bible, Mark 12:29]
It is striking that the basic teachings of the Church such as Trinity
and vicarious atonement find no mention in the Bible. In fact, various
verses of the Bible point to Jesus’ (pbuh) actual mission, which was
to fulfill the law revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh). Indeed Jesus
(pbuh) rejected any suggestions that attributed divinity to him, and
explained his miracles as the power of the One True God.
Jesus (pbuh) thus reiterated the message of monotheism that was given
by all earlier prophets of Almighty God.
NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James
Version.
III
CONCEPT OF GOD IN OLD TESTAMENT:
1.
God is One
The following verse from the book of Deuteronomy contains an
exhortation from Moses (pbuh):
"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adna Ikhad".
It is a Hebrew quotation which means:
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4]
2.
Unity of God in the Book of Isaiah
The following verses are from the Book of Isaiah:
(i)
"I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."
[The Bible, Isaiah 43:11]
(ii)
"I am Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 45:5]
(iii)
"I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like
me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 46:9]
3.
Old Testament condemns idol worship
(i)
Old Testament condemns idol worship in the following verses:
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of
anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or
that is in the water under the earth:"
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the
Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]
(ii)
A similar message is repeated in the book of Deuteronomy:
"Thou shalt have none other gods before me."
"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of
anything that is in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or
that is in the water beneath the earth."
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the
Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:7-9
PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) IN THE BIBLE
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:
The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:
"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they
find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".
1.
MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:
Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse
18:
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto
thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak
unto them all that I shall command him."
The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because
Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well
as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh)
was also a Prophet.
If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled,
then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel,
Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.
However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):
i)
Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born
miraculously without any male intervention.
[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]
ii)
Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the
Bible did not marry nor had children.
iii)
Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive.
(4:157-158)
Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are
brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac
(pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews
are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).
Words in the mouth:
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he
received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto
thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them
all that I shall command him."
[Deuteronomy 18:18]
iv)
Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict
capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this
world." (John 18:36).
v)
Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but
Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his
own received him not."
iv)
Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus
(pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew
5:17-18).
2.
It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my
words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."
3.
Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:
It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:
"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read
this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."
When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra -
"Read", he replied, "I am not learned".
4.
prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon
chapter 5 verse 16:
"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna
Jerusalem."
"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my
beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."
In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added
after the name of Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even
translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether
lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet
Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the New Testament:
Al-Qur'an Chapter 61 Verse 6:
"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O Children of Israel! I
am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which
came) before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after
me, whose name shall be Ahmed.' But when he came to them with clear
signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!' "
All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad
(pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians.
1.
John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter,
that he may abide with you forever."
2.
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the
Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."
3.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go
away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".
"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised
one" is almost the translation of the
Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7.
The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the
Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather
than a comforter.
Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually
prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the
Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for
all creatures.
Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies
refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise
that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will
the Comforter come. The Bible states that the
Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of
Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh)
was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than
Prophet
Muhammad (pbuh).
4.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of
himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he
will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".
The Sprit of Truth, spoken about in this prophecy referes to none
other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James
Version.
WWW.THEDEENSHOW.COM---FOR MORE INFORMATION
Naj
wrote:
CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> 3.
> Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:
>
> It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:
>
> "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read
> this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."
>
> When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra -
> "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".
From Isaiah 29:12-14...
For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And
if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say to him, "Read
this, please," he will answer, "I can't; it is sealed." Or if you give
the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say, "Read this, please,"
he will answer, "I don't know how to read."
The LORD says:
"These people come near to Me with their mouth
and honor Me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from Me.
Their worship of Me
is made up only of rules taught by men.
Therefore once more I will astound these people
with wonder upon wonder;
the wisdom of the wise will perish,
the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."
Amen.
This message from Isaiah is actually a prophecy concerning those who
are religious and yet do not belong to GOD (i.e. those whose hearts
are "far from GOD" as evident by their not being able to publicly say
"Jesus is LORD" because the Holy Spirit is not willing to help them).
Behold in wide-eyed wonder and amazement at what GOD can do here on
Usenet through one of Jesus' disciples to fulfill the above from
Isaiah:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/5f6ca8a70d9e98d0?
Dear Naj,
Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Naj" <naj...@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> CONCEPT OF GOD IN CHRISTIANITY
> by Dr.Zakir Naik
> I .
> Position of Jesus (pbuh) in Islam:
> [...]
Islam has their fictions about Jesus that
differ from the christian ones, but islam
is, in and of itself, one of the most anti-
human religions on this planet, despite
the fact that christianity has heavy anti-
human aspects and resulted in intense
anti-humanism (and violence) in the past.
Islam's ancient violent-promoting notions
have found their way into the hearts and
minds of suicide mass murderers, and
as such, until those ancient violent-pro-
moting ideologies are removed, islam is
the riskiest way to promote a supposedly
pleasant after-life hope in the current day.
There are much better ways of hoping,
non-threatening ways -- see naturalism
for a clue.
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
The following applies to the most popular religious
faith in the United States (and elsewhere, in Europe
and in the cultures conquered by Europeans), -but-
if I were to write about islam (and I did write many
posts about islam after 9-11) there's plenty to say
about that anti-human concept, too (and will be
said, in future posts):
- - -
The current method christians use to promote and
perpetuate their faith:
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/pix/brainwash.jpg
Cover up the downsides of religious history, threaten
children with eternal damnation if they don't believe
the christian view, and treat all other religions and
freedom from faith as works of demons or unworthy
of even being studied as to the facts regarding those
religions and freedom from faith?
Yes, that's the path that christians use to perpetuate
their faith.
Moral? No, that's merely treating children as objects
for brainwashing, leading to delusion, confusion, deceit
by parents, and continued slavery for the children, their
children, and so on and so forth, ad infinitum ... in an
endless cycle of brainwashing from one generation to
the next.
There must be a better way ...
Actually, providing choices for children would enable
children to make intelligent decisions about what belief
or disbelief to follow. With a broad background in
religious facts, religious history, and facts regarding
disbelief, our next generation would gird against anti-
human laws prevalent in today's society.
A workable program would continue to allow parents
to teach their faith (per cultural tradition) while providing
children with a broad spectrum of religious facts, ethics,
and fundamentals regarding beliefs and disbeliefs.
There is, I admit, a period of time that starts very early
for some, where society would be hard-pressed to pro-
vide information to a child, with parents tempted to use
brainwashing to achieve their goals. However, at a later
age, programs could be developed to accomplish the
goals of brainwash-protection by providing young chil-
dren with information on the facts of religions, beliefs,
and disbeliefs in schools.
Let me detail a better way for raising our children:
At an early age, children should be provided the facts on
religions, beliefs, and disbeliefs so that they can decide
for themselves what belief or disbelief to adopt as their
own.
Another advantage to dealing with brainwashing through
education at an early age is that education standards
would have to be recognized by all schools, secular and
non-secular, as is the case for reading, writing, and
arithmetic today.
The exact standards vary from state to state, but regard-
less of where a student attends school, education stan-
dards must be met.
Setting a standard that facts regarding religions, beliefs,
and disbeliefs should be taught would simply add another
measure by which student knowledge could be tested
and ascertained to assure they are getting the information
needed to make decisions impacting their lives, their future,
their choices.
Why wait until students are in first grade?
Here's an idea for you - provide tax incentives for daycares
to educate preschoolers on the facts regarding religions,
beliefs, and disbeliefs. I can tell you from personal exper-
ience that many christians like to "god-proof" (brainwash)
their child when they're 3, 4, 5, and the only counter society
has for such "god-proofing" (brainwashing) is to bring the
facts on religions, beliefs, and disbeliefs to the children who
go to daycare.
You would be surprised at the methods used by churches
in America to indoctrinate (brainwash) the very young into
their belief systems. Drawings of Jesus prancing across a
hilltop offering love and eternal life to children, feeding the
hungry, songs of praise, yadayadayadayada.
Why not promote information distribution regarding the
facts on beliefs and disbeliefs?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The Nature of the Problem - Closer Examination
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Popular song used to seduce little children
into the christian faith:
Jesus Loves the Little Children ...
... All the children of the world,
Red and yellow black and white,
They're all precious in his site,
Jesus loves the little children of the world.
- - -
By the way, I, a human being, love
all human beings, christians, muslims,
hindus, buddhists, jews, gnostics,
pagans, atheists, agnostics, humanists,
freelovers, freethinkers, all of
non-faith/faith/distance from faith,
and I, a human being, threaten no one,
*ever*, with any torment/punishment
should they not feel as I do regarding
the wondrous joy and pleasure that can
be had by all via a pro-human, pro-love,
and pro-freedom life free of faith.
} {aside}
}
} Preface: Note that all of the following
} is a simple iteration of fact. For those
} who find the facts unappealing, change
} the way the world is, don't pretend that
} by denial/refusal to acknowledge the
} nature of christian faith, you can make
} it all go away like a fairy with a magic
} wand.
}
} As long as you leverage your faith
} off the christian bible, you're tied to
} every aspect of christian faith iterated
} in this post - you cannot, logically,
} reasonably, non-pretentiously, support
} a faith based on the christian bible by
} simply pretending the following does not
} exist or is irrelevant to the aspects of
} faith that you happen to like while you
} go about your life in denial as if the
} downsides of christian faith don't exist
} except "by them" (those not of your so-
} called doctrinal liberal sanctimonious
} pretentious superiority by virtue of
} your denial of responsibility for every
} aspect of faith not one with positive
} characteristics in a secular modern
} world).
}
} {end aside}
The above (a song sung/taught to
children in most christian churches),
one example of the extent of brain-
washing many (most?) Americans put
their children through (a not so subtle
implication/message to children being
that not believing Jesus loves you
makes you bad/evil).
So, the message we have from the song
is that Jesus is good, believe in Jesus,
and Jesus died for you.
Not mentioned in the song:
By the way, believe this or burn in hell,
forever, iterated through much of Chris-
tianity, denied or distanced from by
some (unspecified) number of Christians.
Tragically, many children are inflicted
with that hell meme (via hellfire and
brimstone pastors, the christian bible,
and subtle 'hints' from even the most
liberal of christian establishments)
while the love of Jesus is bragged
about openly (and brainwashed into
children as = to good while not
believing is claimed = to bad).
Difficult for many (most?) children to
overcome all that guilt force fed into
them from childhood ...
And this, many (most?) Americans feel
compelled to put their children through ...
But, the children grow up and (some,
many, most?) come to realize they've
been lied to/misled, by their parents
and church authority figures and society
and culture, and they must deal with
those lies/deception (and the absurdity/
pretentiousness of the society/culture
in which they find themselves) for
their entire lives ...
- - -
Christian roots? A long journey of
sacrifice, pain, and death, inspired
by God (so the bible claims), for
animals, men, women, and children ...
The following are some of God's death
instructions impacting children - see
the following link for a more complete
list of violence/cruelty in the bible,
causing many folks to see pro-humanism
and God worship as polar opposites:
God, the mass murderer.
Genesis 7:4, 19:24
God threatens to kill the Pharaoh's
firstborn son.
Exodus 4:23
God murders the Egyptian firstborn
humans and animals.
Exodus 12:30
Children who strike their parents
are to be killed.
Exodus 21:15
God kills Aaron's sons for offering
"strange fire before the Lord."
Leviticus 10:1-2
Children who curse their parents,
adulterers, and homosexuals must
be killed.
Leviticus 20:9-12
The unchaste daughters of priests
must be burnt to death.
Leviticus 21:9
God will "send wild beasts among
you, which shall rob your of your
children."
Leviticus 26:22
"And ye shall eat the flesh of your
sons, and the flesh of your daughters
shall ye eat."
Leviticus 26:30
God kills Aaron's sons for offering
"strange fire before the Lord."
Numbers 3:4, 26:61
God hardens King Sihon's spirit and
then kills him and all the men, women,
and "little ones" in his kingdom.
Deuteronomy 2:30-34
God delivers Og into Moses' hands,
who then kills every man, woman, and
child in every city.
Deuteronomy 3:3-6
God tells the Israelites to kill
everyone in the lands that they
conquer and to "show no mercy unto
them."
Deuteronomy 7:2
Kill any friends or family that
worship a god that is different
than your own.
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any
city where you find people that
worship differently than you.
Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious
views that are different than your
own.
Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen
to a priest.
Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill all the men and boys in the
cities that God "delivers into your
hands," but keep the women for
yourself.
Deuteronomy 20:13-15
Kill everything that breathes in
the cities that God gives you for
an inheritance.
Deuteronomy 20:16
Kill rebellious or disobedient sons.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Kill rape victims if they fail to cry
out loud enough.
Deuteronomy 22:23-34
If you misbehave, God will make you
eat your sons and daughters.
Deuteronomy 28:53, 28:55 28:56-67
Don't make God angry or he'll burn
or starve you to death. If that fails,
he'll have some animals eat you or
snakes bite you. As a last resort
he'll kill you with "the sword
without, and terror within." He'll
"destroy both the young man and the
virgin, the suckling also with the
man of gray hairs."
Deuteronomy 32:23-25
Joshua killed "everything that
breathed" in each of the cities
that he conquered, "as the Lord
God of Israel commanded."
Joshua 6:21, 8:24-26, 10:28-29,
10:32-33, 10:35, 10:37, 10:38,
10:40, 11:8, 11:11, 11:12, 11:14,
11:21
If you happen to see "the accursed
thing," don't touch it. If you do,
you, your family, and all of your
animals must be burned.
Joshua 7:1-26
God gets right in and fights with
the Israelites. He "slew them with
a great slaughter" and even "chased
them along the way." What a guy.
Joshua 10:10
God threw down "great stones from
heaven" so that he could kill even
more people than the Israelites
"slew with the sword."
Joshua 10:11
Jephthah sacrifices his daughter
to God.
Judges 11:29-39
God orders Saul to kill every
Amalekite "man and woman, infant
and suckling, ox and sheep, camel
and ass."
1 Samuel 15:3
David kills all the Amalekites
again (see 15:7-8 where Saul
kills them all the first time).
1 Samuel 27:8-11
To punish David for having Uriah
killed, God kills David's
newborn son.
2 Samuel 12:15, 18
God kills a couple hundred thousand
people to punish David for having
a census.
2 Samuel 24:15
Laying the foundation for a city
using your firstborn child and
using your youngest son to set
up the gates.
1 Kings 16:34
When many people are needlessly
slaughtered, you will know that
the Lord is God.
1 Kings 20:28
God sends two bears to rip up
42 little children for making
fun of Elisha's bald head.
2 Kings 2:23-24
Mothers boiling and eating their
own children.
2 Kings 6:28-29
God sends a famine on the people
that lasts for seven years.
2 Kings 8:1
The 70 sons of Ahab are killed and
their heads are put in baskets.
2 Kings 10:7-8
Jehu shows off his "zeal for the
Lord" by murdering everyone in
Samaria.
2 Kings 10:16-17
God sends lions to devour the
Samaritans because "they knew not
the manner of the God of the land."
2 Kings 17:25-26
David tortures all the inhabitants
of several cities with saws, harrows
of iron, and axes.
1 Chronicles 20:3
God kills the king of Israel and
helps Abijah kill 500,000 Israelites.
2 Chronicles 13:15-20
In the largest single God-assisted
massacre in the bible, Asa kills one
million Ethiopians.
2 Chronicles 14:8-13
Whoever does not seek the God of
Israel should be executed.
2 Chronicles 15:13
God killed the women and children
of Judah and smote the men with an
incurable disease of the bowels
until their "bowels fell out."
2 Chronicles 21:14-19
Amaziah, with God's help, kills
10,000 people; another 10,000 he
leaves alive so that he can throw
them off a cliff and break them in
pieces.
2 Chronicles 25:11-12
Pekah kills 120,000 people in one
day "because they had forsaken the
Lord God of their fathers".
2 Chronicles 28:6, 8
God sends the king of the Chaldees
to kill all the "young men with the
sword." He had "no compassion upon
young man or maiden, old man, or
him that stooped for age: he gave
them all into his hand."
2 Chronicles 36:16-17
Esther has Haman's ten sons hung.
Est.9:13
God (or Satan) kills Job's children
in a windstorm.
Job 1:19
God will rain fire and brimstone
upon "wicked" people.
Psalms 11:6
The God of Peace teaches us to kill
our neighbors in war.
Psalms 18:34
If God doesn't like you, he'll burn
you to death.
Psalms 21:9
If you forget God he will tear you
in pieces.
Psalms 50:22
If you don't trust God, he'll kill
you, and while you're dying the
"righteous" will laugh at you.
Psalms 52:5-6
"The righteous" will rejoice when
they see "the wicked" being
dismembered by God. They'll "wash
their feet in the blood of the
wicked."
Psalms 58:10
God will "fill the places with dead
bodies."
Psalms 110:6
God is praised for slaughtering
little babies.
Psalms 135:8, 136:10
Happiness is smashing your little
children against rocks.
Psalms 137:9
A prayer that God will burn people
to death.
Psalms 140:10
Beat the hell out of your children.
Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15,
23:13-14, 29:15
"The blueness of a wound cleanseth
away evil; so do stripes the inward
parts of the belly."
Proverbs 20:30
Beat your slaves just like you do
your children. Don't try to correct
them with words.
Proverbs 29:19
If you mock your father or disobey
your mother, the ravens will pick
out your eyeballs and feed them to
the eagles.
Proverbs 30:17
If God can find you, he will "thrust
you through," smash your children
"to pieces" before your eyes, and
rape your wife.
Isaiah 13:15-18
God will kill the young men in war
and starve their children to death.
Jeremiah 11:22-23
God's sword will "devour" everyone
until "no flesh shall have peace."
Jeremiah 12:12
God will make everyone drunk and
then "dash the fathers and the sons
together." He vows to "not pity, nor
spare, nor have mercy, but destroy
them."
Jeremiah 13:13-14
God promises to kill everyone by
war, starvation, and disease.
Jeremiah 14:12,24:10, 29:17-18,
42:17-18, 22
God has ordained that everyone
"shall die of grievous deaths,"
and that they shall neither "be
lamented" nor even buried, but
"they shall be as dung upon the
face of the earth."
Jeremiah 16:3-4
When the people ask why God is
killing everyone, God answers
by saying, "Because your fathers
have forsaken me."
Jeremiah 16:10
Jeremiah asks God to kill the
young men in war and the children
by starvation.
Jeremiah 18:21
God will make parents eat their
own children, and friends eat
each other.
Jeremiah 19:7-9
God will kill everyone, "both
man and beast," with a "great
pestilence."
Jeremiah 21:6
God will force all of Israel to
"be drunken." Then, he'll kill
them all with a sword.
Jeremiah 24:27-28
God will kill so many people that
the entire earth will be covered
with their dead bodies. No one
is to mourn them or even bury
them, "they shall be as dung upon
the ground."
Jeremiah 25:33
Even those Jews that flee to Egypt
will not be spared. God will hunt
them down and kill them all with
war, famine, and disease.
Jeremiah 44:12-13
God will cause the daughters of
Rabbah to be burned to death.
Jeremiah 49:2
God will "break in pieces" pretty
much everyone and everything he
can think of..
Jeremiah 51:21-23
God will cause fathers to eat their
sons and sons to eat their fathers.
Ezekiel 5:10
God plans to kill everyone with
plagues, famines, and wars. But
if any still survive, then he'll
send beasts to devour them.
Ezekiel 5:17
God plans to decorate the land
with human bones and dead bodies.
Ezekiel 6:5
Nebuchadnezzar orders those who
accused Daniel (including their
wives and children) to be cast
into the lions den.
Daniel 6:24
God assures Hosea that he will
"slay even the beloved fruit of
the womb."
Hosea 9:16
God promises to dash to pieces
the infants of Samaria and "their
women with child shall be ripped
up."
Hosea 13:16
Jesus strongly approves of the
law and the prophets. He hasn't
the slightest objection to the
cruelties of the Old Testament.
Matthew 5:17
Jesus says that most people are
going to hell.
Matthew 7:13-14
Families will be torn apart
because of Jesus. "Brother shall
deliver up the brother to death,
and the father the child: and
the children shall rise up
against their parents, and
cause them to be put to death.
Matthew 10:21
Jesus condemns entire cities
to dreadful deaths and to
the eternal torment of hell
because they didn't care for
his preaching.
Matthew 11:20-24
Jesus will send his angels
to gather up "all that offend"
and they "shall cast them into
a furnace of fire: there shall
be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:41-42, 50
Jesus is criticized by the
Pharisees for not washing his
hands before eating. He defends
himself by attacking them for
not killing disobedient children
according to the commandment:
"He that curseth father or
mother, let him die the death."
Matthew 15:4-7
Any city that doesn't "receive"
the followers of Jesus will be
destroyed in a manner even more
savage than that of Sodom and
Gomorrah.
Mark 6:11
Jesus criticizes the Jews for
not killing their disobedient
children according to Old
Testament law.
Mark 7:9
Jesus tells us to cut off our
hands and feet, and pluck out
our eyes to avoid going to hell.
Mark 9:43
Jesus says that entire cities
will be violently destroyed
and the inhabitants "thrust
down to hell" for not
"receiving" his disciples.
Luke 10:10-15
Jesus says that we should
fear God since he has the
power to kill us and then
torture us forever in hell.
Luke 12:5
All of the vicious Old
Testament laws will be
binding forever.
Luke 16:17
Those who, for whatever
reason, do not believe in
Jesus are tormented forever
in hell.
John 3:18
Jesus says that the wrath
of God" is on all unbelievers.
John 3:36
Those who do not believe in
Jesus will be cast into
a fire to be burned.
John 15:6
God will torture forever
those who don't know the
password to heaven.
Acts 4:12
Jesus will take "vengeance
on them that know not God"
by burning them forever "in
flaming fire."
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
God gives Death and Hell
the task of indiscriminately
killing one quarter of the
earth's human population with
the sword, starvation, and
"with the beasts of the
earth."
Revelations 6:8
Four angels, with an army
of 200 million, killed a third
of the earth's population.
Revelations 9:15-19
God will have people killed
by fire, plagues, and beasts.
There will be dead bodies
rotting, unburied everywhere.
And those that are not killed
by God (the Christians?) will
"rejoice over them [the dead
nonchristians?] and make merry,
and shall send gifts to one
another."
Revelations 11:5-10
God will send fire from heaven
to devour people.
Revelations 20:9-10
Whoever isn't found listed in
the book of life will be
cast into the lake of fire.
Revelations 20:15
Those who are fearful or
unbelieving will be cast into
"the lake which burneth with
fire and brimstone."
Revelations 21:8
- - -
By the way, there is no evidence God exists other than the
______ [fill in word here] like that presented above.
It would appear that the evidence is overwhelming that
humans made up the God/sacrifice stuff and that Gods/
sacrifices the world over are evidence of humankind's
journey from the depths of ignorance and fear to (hope-
fully, some day, if humankind can stop the pernicious
and evil brainwashing / guilt tripping of children into
blind faith routine) ...
A natural, deep, and meaningful understanding of our
true nature in a natural god-free world.
For a more sane, rational, caring, considerate, just, worthy,
fulfilling, pro-freedom, pro-loving, pro-children, pro-human,
and peaceful way to live out your one and only sure shot at
life, on this earth, at this time, refer to Pro-Humanist FREE-
LOVER principles.
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/freelover.htm
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
>The following applies to the most popular religious
>faith in the United States (and elsewhere, in Europe
>and in the cultures conquered by Europeans), -but-
>if I were to write about islam (and I did write many
>posts about islam after 9-11) there's plenty to say
>about that anti-human concept, too (and will be
>said, in future posts):
>
>- - -
>
>The current method christians use to promote and
>perpetuate their faith:
> http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/pix/brainwash.jpg
>
>Cover up the downsides of religious history, threaten
>children with eternal damnation if they don't believe
>the christian view, and treat all other religions and
>freedom from faith as works of demons or unworthy
>of even being studied as to the facts regarding those
>religions and freedom from faith?
>
>Yes, that's the path that christians use to perpetuate
>their faith.
Actually, no amount of brainwashing will help you publicly say "Jesus
is LORD."
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)
Amen.
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
http://www.amazon.com/God-Who-Wasnt-There/dp/B000CAPZBC/ref=pd_sim_b_1
- - -
Newsweek, June 27, 2005
"Irreverently lays out the case that
Jesus Christ never existed."
Product Description
Bowling for Columbine did it to the gun
culture. Super Size Me did it to fast food.
Now The God Who Wasn't There does
it to religion.
Holding modern Christianity up to a bright
spotlight, this eye-opening documentary
asks the questions few dare to ask. "Did
Jesus even exist?" is just the beginning
for The God Who Wasn't There.
Your guide through the world of Christen-
dom is former fundamentalist Brian Flem-
ming, joined by such luminaries as Jesus
Seminar fellow Robert M. Price, author
Sam Harris and historian Richard Carrier.
In addition to the film, which won the
Best Documentary award at the 2005 Grass-
roots Cinema Film Festival, this feature-
packed DVD includes:
-Special commentary tracks with Richard
Dawkins and Earl Doherty
-Over one hour of compelling additional
interview footage
-An in-depth Web-enabled slide show
-Music from the soundtrack
-Biographies of all participants
This provocative DVD takes off the gloves
and gives religion an unprecedented, no-
holds-barred examination.
- - -
Movie Review by Jim Walker
http://www.nobeliefs.com/GodWhoWasntThere.htm
- - -
Excerpts:
Once I saw the trailer of this movie ... it
promised to fit so well with the ideas pre-
sented on NoBeliefs.com, I just had to see
it. It exceeded my expectations. Normally
I review only books, but after viewing the
movie, I needed to say something about it.
The director, Brian Flemming, a ex-funda-
mentalist Christian, has put together an
outstanding and controversial documentary
film about a deeply hidden truth about
Christianity: that there exists no evidence
for a historical Jesus of the New Testament!
This courageous film presents such a blas-
phemous idea, that if Christianity has it
right, Flemming, along many other free-
thinkers (including me) will spend our
eternal lives in torturous Hell. Thus Chris-
tians should love this movie, if only to
believe the exquisite suffering we will
endure because of our exposure of the
lack of evidence for a historical Jesus.
So my dear Christian friends, by all means,
you have to see this movie. It might chal-
lenge the very core of your beliefs, but
then, God wants to challenge your faith
you doesn't He? Well let this serve as
your Godly challenge.
Flemming used clips from old Jesus mov-
ies to give a synopsis of Jesus' alleged life
in six minutes, and proceeds to show, in
an entertaining graphical way, the time-
lines of the those who wrote about Jesus.
It reveals that serious gaps in the histor-
ical record show that nothing got written
about Jesus's supposed life until a gener-
ation after he lived. Although Paul did
write about Jesus at around 60 C.E., the
documentary reveals what most Christians
don't know about Paul: If Jesus really had
lived as a historical human being, nobody
told Paul about it.
In all of Paul's epistles, (about 80,000
words), he never mentions a historical
Jesus! He never heard of Mary, Joseph,
a birth in Bethlehem, King Herod, the
miracles, ministry, no trial by Jews, or
trial by Pontius Pilate. In other words,
the man who invented Christianity had
no idea that Jesus walked the earth.
Although the film alludes to the fact that
no contemporary evidence exists for
Jesus, I wish that it had spent more time
explaining that not one eyewitness of the
alleged Jesus ever wrote about him. (For
more information on this, please read,
"Did a historical Jesus exist?")
Not until decades after the alleged life
of Jesus, did the first gospel appear
(Mark). But even here, the gospels don't
depict history, but rather, allegorical
literature, very common during the period
when the gospels got written.
And it gets worse.
The film reveals that the Christian reli-
gion developed in the same way as virtu-
ally every previous religion: with a dying
and rising savior. Attis, Mithras, Osiris,
Dionysus, Hercules, and many other
gods predate Jesus and they bear a strik-
ing resemblance to him.
The similarities include: healing the sick,
casting out demons, eating the flesh and
blood of the savior, remaining dead for
three days, then rising, and lots more.
So why don't Christians question the his-
toricity of Jesus? Because, apparently,
no one told them. This documentary asks
several Christians if they knew how Chris-
tianity spread and if they ever heard of
Osiris, Mithras, or Dionysus.
None of them knew that these pagan gods
resembled Jesus in astounding ways, or
how Christianity spread.
Of course most Christians have little
awareness of the history of their religion,
instead concentrating on the war and gore
of their religion. If you think this as an
exaggeration, the documentary shows
the obsession of blood, gore, and vio-
lence by Christians.
For example, Flemming provides us with
clips from Mel Gibson's The Passion of
the Christ, (depicted as The Smashin'
of the Christ) where Gibson decided to
depict endless blood curdling scenes
throughout the movie. Many Christians
claim the Passion as the most powerful
spiritual experience of their lives. It also
represents the most popular Jesus film
by far.
Flemming asks us to question why such
a bloodthirsty film should have such an
impact on Christianity and what does
Christianity's fascination with violence
do for society?
Although Flemming presents us with a
controversial film about Christianity,
the historical material doesn't come
from him but rather from Biblical
scholars.
Throughout the documentary, you will
see commentaries from Robert M. Price
(Professor of Biblical Criticism at the
center for Inquiry Institute), Earl Doherty
(a pioneer of the Jesus Myth theory),
Alan Dundes (anthropologist and folk-
lorist), Sam Harris (neuroscience and
author of The End of Faith), Richard
Carrier (philosopher and historian),
Barbara & David P. Mikkelson (founders
of the Urban Legends Reference Pages
at snopes.com), and more.
Flemming also interviews several funda-
mentalist Christians.
Much of the material for the Jesus myth
theory comes from Earl Doherty, in his
1999 research book, The Jesus Puzzle.
In fact the DVD version includes a fas-
cinating full length running interview
between Flemming and Doherty.
This professional documentary about
Jesus (the first of its kind) puts it all
together in one entertaining package,
and includes a kick-ass soundtrack as
well, by DJ Madson, David Byrne,
Thievery Corporation, Zap Mama,
and Le Tigre.
For those university Biblical scholar
holdouts that pretend that Jesus existed,
even though you have no evidence to
support it, but have to pretend just to
secure your jobs, the game is up. This
film should embarrass your profession
and it throws down the gauntlet to face
up to reality. I suggest that this film
opens the door a little for you to ex-
press what you really want to say.
You won't find this film shown at your
local movie theater. And I suspect
because of its controversial nature,
this documentary will never get shown,
and certainly not on public television.
After all, corporations seem to kowtow
to the Christian right these days, but
I would love to see it aired on the
Independent Film Channel (IFC).
But not to worry. Thanks to the inter-
net, you can purchase this film in DVD
format. Most likely, this documentary
will live underground, spreading amongst
those who want to know, and abhorred by
those who choose to remain wallowed in
belief. No doubt it will live as a clas-
sic underground film.
...
For more information go to
http://www.thegodmovie.com
A few quotes from the movie:
The earth revolves around the sun. But
it wasn't always that way. The sun used
to revolve around the earth. It was like
that for hundreds of years until it was
discovered to be otherwise, and even for
a hundred years after that. But ultimately,
after much kicking and screaming, the
earth did, in fact, begin to revolve
around the sun.
Christianity was wrong about the solar
system. What if it's wrong about some-
thing else too? This movie is about what
happened when I went looking for Jesus.
--Brian Flemming, narrator
Jesus Christ is said to have lived this
life, here, in the first three decades
of the 1st century, dying somewhere
around the year thirty-three. The gos-
pels all came later.
Mark was the first one written and the
other three are clearly derived from
Mark. Mark mentions the destruction
of the Jewish temple which happened
in the year 70. So the gospels all came
later than that, probably much later.
There's a gap of four decades or more.
--Brian Flemming, narrator
...
[a smoking gun according to Earl
Doherty]
Paul doesn't believe that Jesus was
ever a human being. He's not even
aware of the idea! And he's the link
between the time frame given the
life of Jesus and the appearance of
the gospel account of that life.
This is why you don't hear many
Christian leaders talking about the
early days of Christianity. Because
once you assemble the facts, the
story is that Jesus lived, everyone
forgot... and then remembered.
--Brian Flemming, narrator
You ever notice what a bad rap the
Inquisition gets? Even some Chris-
tians today think it was a bad idea.
But how could it be a bad idea if
the Bible is right; aren't the stakes
as high as they can be? If a little
suffering here on earth saves more
souls for all eternity, isn't that
a good thing?
The Inquisition was not a perversion
of Christian doctrine. The Inquisition
was an expression of Christian doc-
trine.
--Brian Flemming, narrator
Mark, himself, probably did not be-
lieve he was writing history. He was
writing a symbolic message. He was
writing a gospel, you know, the
'good news.'
--Richard Carrier, historian
At the very two points Jesus appears
to be locked into history, the stories
are either mythical... or they contain
outrageous improbabilities..."
--Robert M. Price, Fellow Jesus Seminar
There are other similar savior figures
in the same neighborhood, same time in
history: Mithras, Attis, Adonis, Osiris,
Tammuz, and so forth, and nobody
thinks that these characters are anything
but mythical, and the stories are so sim-
ilar, most of them, in fact, having some
kind of resurrection or another, some-
times even with celebrations after three
days, and so forth, that it seems like
special pleading to say, oh, in this one
case, it really happened.
--Robert M. Price, Fellow Jesus Seminar
...
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/5f6ca8a70d9e98d0?
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
Roger Pearse
wrote:
> The film reveals that the Christian reli-
> gion developed in the same way as virtu-
> ally every previous religion: with a dying
> Dionysus, Hercules, and many other
> gods predate Jesus and they bear a strik-
> ing resemblance to him.
That's right. There's the Twelve Labours of Jesus. There's Jesus
fighting the cosmic bull. There's the episode where Jesus was born
from a rock. There's Jesus' mother being incinerated by his father
Zeus, and Jesus being born from Zeus' thigh.
There's the famous bible story where Jesus is killed by his brother,
and his body cut into 14 pieces. Then his wife Isis travelled around
Egypt collecting them, and got all of them except his willy. After
which Jesus became god of the dead and spent half his time on a barque
with other gods in the underworld.
> The similarities include: healing the sick,
> casting out demons, eating the flesh and
> blood of the savior, remaining dead for
> three days, then rising, and lots more.
Funny; I don't remember any of this about Mithras. Or Osiris. Or
Dionysius. Or...
But then a lot of atheists are pretty dim.
> So why don't Christians question the historicity of Jesus?
Too well educated to believe nonsense.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
If god/allah doesn't exist, everything experienced
would occur exactly as it does in real life. Innocents
would die. Babies would suffer horrible deformities.
Religious wars would be waged. Multitudes of
contradictory dogma would be pervasive. Humans
would be kind, gentle, evil, and hateful.
Think about it - what, exactly would be different if
there really was a god/allah than what it is humans
experience in everyday life? Put another way, if
god/allah really existed, don't you think it would
manage, somehow, someway, being omnipotent
and all, some little itty bitty teensy weensy bit of
evidence such that your average joe could buy into
the concept by using his/her brain to do so?
Contact, maybe, like in this life rather than threats
regarding death/torment with believe or else idiocy
that could have been (and was, in fact) invented by
a multitude of cultures/religions for self-serving ends,
myths one and all?
Given the absence of any evidence whatsoever for
silent and invisible beings, don't you think it's absurd
for humans to continue the worship/pray foolishness?
Surely, goodness and mercy are kind to those that
follow truth and beauty rather than those that worship
non-existent beings, don't you think, maybe?
Don't you think it's about time for religions to give
up the altruism trick, clinging to god/allah fear/hate
as OK since some humans who believe do a few
good deeds, here and there? NEWSFLASH - many
humans who accept the reality of life do a few good
deeds, here and there. How about doing good deeds
because doing good deeds is a good idea? Period.
How about soaking up all life has to offer and maxing
out this one and only shot at it RATHER than deceiving
yourself and others, not the least of which are your chil-
dren, about non-existent and silent beings cooked up
by ancient and clueless humans?
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Were you ever a brainwashed christian? I consider
myself to have been brainwashed and influenced into
the christian faith from birth. Christianity permeates
American culture - I would submit that anyone who
was once a Christian is more than likely an individual
who has recovered from that brainwashing via vari-
ous means, not the least of which is critical thought.
How does one un-brainwash a christian?
1 - Learn about the brainwashed christian.
Identify why he/she believes. Economic factors?
Social factors? Family pressure (spouse, lover,
child, parent)? When did he/she first believe? Why?
What exactly is his/her belief? What is his/her belief
based on? Was an authority figure a significant part
of his/her belief choice? Did he/she have enough
information to make an informed and considered
choice or was information withheld from him/her
by church or other authority figures?
2 - Based on the response to 1, submit to the
brainwashed christian how he/she can achieve
his/her goal(s) through other more sensible and
rational means. Discuss the weakness of his/her
belief based on the core reason(s) for his/her
belief. Put your position in terms of what he/she
understands and why he/she believes.
Refer to the following books for ideas on how
to un-brainwash a christian and how others have
successfully un-brainwashed themselves or others:
Captive Hearts, Captive Minds : Freedom and
Recovery from Cults and Other Abusive
Relationships, by Madeleine Landau Tobias,
Janja Lalich (Contributor), Michael Langone
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0897931440
"This book will prove invaluable help for both
those with loved ones in a religious cult, and those
coming to terms with leaving a religious cult. The
authors Tobias and Lalich treat this difficult subject
with care and sensitivity. It's a shame more young
people don't get a chance to read this before they
get mixed up in a destructive group... :( "
Cults in Our Midst, by Margaret Thaler Singer,
Janja Lalich (Contributor), Robert Jay Lifton
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0787902667
"Most people believe that cult members are
mentally unbalanced or are misfits who live in
remote places, like the doomed devotees of
Jim Jones and David Koresh. We take comfort
in the fact that the influences of cultures are far
removed from our everyday lives. - Nothing
could be further from the truth!"
The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to
Read, by Tim C. Leedom (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0939040158
"Consider this book as a kind of consumer
protection guide to religion, a big step forward
toward religious literacy. Readers will explore
myths, origins, fundamentalism, television
ministries, the identical stories of Stellar /
Pagan / Christian beliefs, unfounded doctrines,
child abuse, the Year 2000, and women's rights."
Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist,
by Dan Barker
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1877733075
"About half of the book is Barker's story of his
conversion and deconversion. The other half are
a collection of essays Barker has put together
about biblical errancy, his TV appearances and
debates, and his experiences in the Atheist
community. A modern classic of freethought
literature."
Leaving the Fold, by Marlene, Ph.D. Winell
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1879237512
"As a former fundamentalist, I have worked over
the past ten years with individuals and small groups
focusing on recovery from religious dysfunction
and addiction. Although there are several other
excellent resources on this topic, Winell's book
is essential for understanding how Christian
fundamentalism and conventional Christian
religion can foster dependency in its adherents."
Leaving the Fold: Testimonies of Former
Fundamentalists, by Edward T. Babinski (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879759070
"This riveting new collection offers testimonies
of former fundamentalists who became disillusioned
with their churches and left. Presenting more than
two dozen personal journeys, this book gives
a clear picture of what attracts a person to the
fundamentalist faith and what can drive believers
away from their religion."
Earle Jones
<0593f22c-53c6-4bc7...@33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote:
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
> >
> > >> Silence is the 2nd-greatest evangelist.
*
Doctor Chung: Don't you have patients to care for? Or at least some
students?
Why do you waste your time pecking away on that keyboard, repeating
2,000 year-old myths that the thinking community abandoned years ago?
Go out and cure the sick. Help the lame to walk and the blind to see.
Get off your high-horse that makes you think that you have some access
to what you call "truth". You don't. You have access to a group of old
books that were written by a disorganized bunch of bronze-age goat
herders who were trying to understand their existence without any tools
to do so.
Get real.
And stop quoting the bible. We all know what it has to say.
"But Rabshakeh said, Hath my master sent me to thy master and to
thee to speak these words? [hath he] not [sent me] to the men that
sit upon the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their
own piss with you?"
--Isaiah 36:12
You let your kids read this stuff?
earle
*
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> Doctor Chung: Don't you have patients to care for?
Yes.
Am helping them all be cured of their cardiovascular disease:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Earle, so that you would come to trust the
t
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
news:3a6557f7-7351-4cb3...@v15g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
You know, upon reviewing my previous Top 20
Doubts post, I realized a not-so-small aspect of
my doubts that's missing from the Top 20 list.
Science.
Feel free to address these doubts:
21) Science is ever-open to searching for truth. Science
is open to experimentation, hypothesis, theory, questioning,
probing, searching. Have a better theory? Propose it and
solicit support for it, based on evidence and meticulous
scientific methodology. Religion, on the other hand, holds
sacred the writings of ancient and clueless humans. Given
a choice, which would you rely on - a) open-minded search
for truth, or b) close-minded acceptance of the writings of
ancient and clueless humans?
22) Universe created in 6 days and god rested - a) preposter-
ous, b) days = millions/billions of years, said lies OK as the
ancient and clueless humans writing the lies were writing for
ancient and clueless humans who could buy into the lies,
c) the universe is 6,000 or so years old, or d) some humans
will believe anything, so long as some authority figure/fam-
ilial influence/social influence/sexual influence leads them
to believe so, not that they won't have their doubts, mind you,
those influences are much more enticing than truth to the 'd'
crowd.
23) Dinosaurs - what's up?
24) Biblical ignorance of scientific fact, what's up?
25) Christians read the bible and construct a belief that's
based on christian theology, the earth is the center of the
universe. Christians punish and even kill other christians for
deviating from the earth-centric view of existence - christians
discover, eventually, that christians were foolish to follow
such bible-centric/earth-centric views of the universe - what's
up?
26) Christians, many of present-day vintage, construct a
"sex is blessed by god" myth, said myth determining that
any fertilized egg is to be treated as a live and sentient
human being, over and above any interests of the woman
carrying the fertilized egg - of note, most fertilized eggs
die through no act of humans - what's up?
27) Galapagos Islands - evolution - Darwin - modern-day
affirmation of same - no god required or desired - what's
up?
28) Black holes - bible - what's up?
29) Supernovas - bible - what's up?
30) Billions upon billions of galaxies / stars / solar systems
and planets - bible - what's up?
31) It's just instinct - an oft-recited mention by as regards
animals' behaviors and reactions to the world around them;
after all, the bible teaches that animals are subservient to
humans; when I pet my cat and my cat yearns for affection
and attention and interacts with me on a very perceptive
basis, when animals sacrifice and act to save human lives,
what's up?
32) Science reveals layer upon layer of truth and knowledge,
continental shift, asteroid/comet impacts, massive extinc-
tion events, etc..., said truth revealed based on meticulous
research and willingness to go where the data leads you ...
bible reveals the myths of ancient humans - what's up?
...
Oh well, this could go on for quite some time, but suffice
to say, in my view the open-minded search for truth based
on scientific principles far outweighs the myths of ancient
and clueless humans, carried forward from generation to
generation to the present day...
Earle Jones
<3a6557f7-7351-4cb3...@v15g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote:
> Earle Jones wrote:
> >
> > Doctor Chung: Don't you have patients to care for?
>
> Yes.
>
> Am helping them all be cured of their cardiovascular disease...
*
Good!
Spend more time with your patients and less time with your computer.
earle
*
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> Earle Jones wrote:
>> >
>> > Doctor Chung: Don't you have patients to care for?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Am helping them all be cured of their cardiovascular disease...
>>
>
> Good!
GOD is good:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/Good
> Spend more time with your patients and less time with your computer.
It remains my personal choice to continue to receive the guidance of
the Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write.
GOD remains able to provide all the time His people need to do what He
wants them to do. Yes, the sun seems to stop moving across the sky
when GOD provides the extra time :-)
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Earle, so that you would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
Jan Drew
Jan Drew
It will be too late for you then.
I will pray that God and his son Jesus Christ will wake you up before it is
too late.
Like my Mom told my atheist brother, *If I am wrong I have nothing to lose.
If you are wrong you have everything to lose.*
Think about it.
Peter Bowditch
Isn't this the poster who told someone to take talk about religion to
another newsgroup?
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
May GOD soften up Pro-Humanist' heart so that he would come to trust
the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
Jan Drew
"Peter Bowditch" <myfir...@ratbags.com> wrote:
> "Jan Drew" <jdre...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> It won't be so easy when you see Jesus coming in the clouds of glory.
> It will be too late for you then.
>
> I will pray that God and his son Jesus Christ will wake you up before it
> is
> too late.
>
> Like my Mom told my atheist brother, *If I am wrong I have nothing to
> lose.
> If you are wrong you have everything to lose.*
>
> Think about it.
>
>
>>It won't be so easy when you see Jesus coming in the clouds of glory.
>>It will be too late for you then.
>>
>>I will pray that God and his son Jesus Christ will wake you up before it
>>is
>>too late.
>>
>>Like my Mom told my atheist brother, *If I am wrong I have nothing to
>>lose.
>>If you are wrong you have everything to lose.*
>>
>>Think about it.
>
> Isn't this the poster who told someone to take talk about religion to
> another newsgroup?
The poster is not the subject.
Try.....................................
Re: Churches, Blind Belief, Dark Rooms (Evidence of No God?)
Now, back to the subject. Which Peter Bowditch had nothing to post.
> It won't be so easy when you see Jesus coming in the clouds of glory.
> It will be too late for you then.
>
> I will pray that God and his son Jesus Christ will wake you up before it
> is
> too late.
>
> Like my Mom told my atheist brother, *If I am wrong I have nothing to
> lose.
> If you are wrong you have everything to lose.*
>
> Think about it.
>
>
> --
> Peter Bowditch
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Nothing
If not for you, there would be nothing for you.
Before you, there was nothing for you other than the
predecessors of what you some day would become,
but you certainly knew nothing of such things until
you arrived and but for the interaction of all that came
before you, the you that is you would not be.
After you, well, as most of the sleeping night, your
consciousness is absent, so is your likely fate but
I hope you'll live pleasantly forever, in a natural way,
I just don't expect that's your fate.
Notice a theme, here? All that is surrounds you and
you are a part of all that is. Before you were here,
you knew not, while you're here you have periods
known as sleep in which nothing and you are one
from your perception yet even while here, almost
all of that which is unknown and unexperienced
by you, and after your conscience being is no more
in this plain of existence, all you now know and all
you once were will return from whence it came, in
this dimension, and the you of the now has but hope
of a continued pleasant and natural existence, if you
desire to have hope.
In all of that, you might notice the natural is ever
present. If you can notice nothing, you exist. If
you cannot notice nothing, nothing does not exist
to you in that now.
You are a natural part of a natural world and that
which you call you is a part of all that is and all
that is cannot be grasped by the human mind.
Why is there something or anything? You cannot
handle the answer because it entails every aspect
of every entity of every bit of every instance of
now - in other words, you are unable to grasp the
answer because the answer is unfathomably far
beyond the totality of that which is you, the totality
of every processing aspect of your human brain.
If you were enhanced to the 'n'th degree, capable
of perceiving/grasping all that is, you would so 'not
be you' as to make such a journey futile as it would
be the death of you.
Know what you can know, in a natural way in a
natural world and know that therein resides the
answers that you can grasp. Beyond that, whatever
that limit is, shall forever be the unknown and the
mysterious.
If you call the unknown, the mysterious, the nothing,
god, you have merely reduced the unfathomable to
a meaningless word which can only be grasped by
placing it in a box and setting limits for it based on
human imagination/desires/fears/needs.
In other words, you've taken nothing, defined limits
and parameters and responsibilities and tasks for
nothing based on human imagination/desires/fears/
needs, and ended up with what you started with in
the first place, nothing.
In reality, nothing constructed into a concept called
god is nothing but a reflection of humans if you wish
to spin the nothing into something humans can grasp,
but which has all the relevance, in reality, of nothing.
Not to say that the pretending that nothing is something
called god isn't one of the most powerful imaginations
to ever plague humankind.
Most of human psychology (and close to all of human
psychosis) is derived from within the human compulsion
to create something where nothing, in fact, exists.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
A real god and an imaginary god, please
detail the difference, and provide evidence
that your claims are supported.
Suggestion -- refer to all the descriptions
of support the notion of a god that are, in
your view, false, and describe how all the
descriptions of god support your version
of god that are, in your mind, true, how
they differ from the ones that are, in your
mind, false.
Conclusion -- any believer can say anything
to boast that his/her god exists/does or
doesn't do this/that or the other, but if
he/she has nothing in the way of evidence,
their comments about god are best explained
naturalistically, as outcomes of social/cultural/
religious conditioning, a handed-down con-
sequence of human evolution and human de-
sire and human fear, + a consequence of be-
ing exposed to the " imagination regarding
ultimate 'reality' is 'true' " trip -- believe it or
else -- from a very young age.
Earle Jones
"Jan Drew" <jdre...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
*
I thought about it.
What you have lost is your connection with rational logic.
"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence."
--David Hume (1711-1776)
earle
*
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Jan Drew wrote:
>
> > It won't be so easy when you see Jesus coming in the clouds of glory.
They won't look up to recognize Him.
> > It will be too late for you then.
> >
> > I will pray that God and his son Jesus Christ will wake you up before it is
> > too late.
May GOD soften their hearts so that they would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
> > Like my Mom told my atheist brother, *If I am wrong I have nothing to lose.
> > If you are wrong you have everything to lose.*
> >
> > Think about it.
>
> *
> I thought about it.
>
> What you have lost is your connection with rational logic.
Not for those of us who are discerning.
> "A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence."
>
> --David Hume (1711-1776)
"A wise man fears the LORD and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and
reckless." -- King Solomon, the wisest man ever (Proverbs 14:16)
Amen.
Bottom line:
There is no wisdom in being a non-christian.
May GOD soften your heart, Earle, so that you would come to trust the
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Although the time of death is approaching me, I am
not afraid of dying and going to Hell or (what would
be considerably worse) going to the popularized
version of Heaven. I expect death to be nothingness
and, for removing me from all possible fears of death,
I am thankful to atheism."
-Isaac Asimov, 'On Religiosity', Free Inquiry
"Men fear death as children fear to go in the dark; and
as that natural fear in children is increased by tales, so
is the other."
-Francis Bacon, 'Of Death'
"There was no deathbed conversion," Druyan says.
"No appeals to God, no hope for an afterlife, no
pretending that he and I, who had been inseparable
for twenty years, were not saying goodbye forever."
"Didn't he want to believe?" she was asked. "Carl
never wanted to believe," she replies fiercely. "He
wanted to KNOW."
-Ann Druyan, Carl Sagan's wife,
from Newsweek magazine
"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances,
the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine
religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the
fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after
rational knowledge."
-Albert Einstein, address at the Princeton Theological
Seminary, May 19, 1939, published in 'Out of My
Later Years', New York: Philosophical Library, 1950
"When belief in a god dies, the god dies."
-Harlan Ellison, 'Deathbird Stories'
"Thus that which is the most awful of evils, death, is
nothing to us, since when we exist there is no death,
and when there is death we do not exist."
-Epicurus
"Salvation through slavery is worthless. Salvation from
slavery is inestimable."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Gods', 1872
"The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by
an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason,
observation and experience merits everlasting pain,
is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only
by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance,
called 'faith'."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Gods', 1872
"All the meanness, all the revenge, all the selfishness,
all the cruelty, all the hatred, all the infamy of which
the heart of man is capable, grew, blossomed and
bore fruit in this one word, Hell."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Great Infidels', 1881
"Our ignorance is God; what we know is science."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Gods', 1872
"Infidelity is liberty; all religion is slavery."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'Thomas Paine', 1870
"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if
they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be
dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then
I attack them one and all, because they enslave the
minds of men."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Ghosts', 1877
"When I became convinced that the Universe is
natural-that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there
entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop
of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'Why Am I An Agnostic?', 1896
"Mental slavery is mental death and every man who
has given up his intellectual freedom is the living coffin
of his dead soul."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'Individuality', 1873
"How long, O how long will mankind worship a book?
How long will they grovel in the dust before the ignorant
legends of the barbaric past? How long, O how long will
they pursue phantoms in a darkness deeper than death?"
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'Heretics and Heresies', 1874
"In the presence of death I affirm and reaffirm the truth
of all that I have said against the superstitions of the
world. I would say that much on the subject with my
last breath."
-Robert G. Ingersoll
"For 15 hours a day, I sit in this same chair, totally
dependent on someone else coming in here to make
me a cup of tea. It's neither living nor dying. It's
stuck in the middle. My only regret is that for 40
years I spoke of a good God who helps people,
who knows what you need and how all you have
to do is ask for it. Well, that's baloney. I want to
tell the world that it's a bunch of bull. Don't believe
a word of it."
-Elizabeth Kuebler-Ross, author of 'A Deathbed
Confession' on death and dying, after a debilitating
stroke; to Ken Ross of the San Francisco Chronicle
on May 31; article in Skeptic magazine, Vol.5 No.2
1997, page 28
"Many people would rather die than think; in fact,
most do."
-Bertrand Russell
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>"Although the time of death is approaching me, I am
>not afraid of dying and going to Hell or (what would
>be considerably worse) going to the popularized
>version of Heaven. I expect death to be nothingness
>and, for removing me from all possible fears of death,
>I am thankful to atheism."
>-Isaac Asimov, 'On Religiosity', Free Inquiry
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and
lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named
Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich
man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to
Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where
he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus
by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and
send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received
your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is
comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us
and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go
from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's
house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will
not also come to this place of torment.'
Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to
them.'
'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to
them, they will repent.'
He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they
will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " -- LORD
Jesus Christ (Luke 16:19-31)
Amen.
Indeed, Jesus has risen from the dead to warn you, Pro-Humanist, and
other non-christians like you.
Truth is simple.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
I am as firmly convinced that religions do
harm as I am that they are untrue." [Bertrand
Russell, My Religious Reminiscences, 1938]
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> I am as firmly convinced that religions do
> harm as I am that they are untrue." [Bertrand
> Russell, My Religious Reminiscences, 1938]
Religions remain man-made and therefore all fall short of GOD's glory:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ce5f55696a2332e3?
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
Citizen Jimserac
wrote:
> Earle Jones wrote:
>
> > Doctor Chung: Don't you have patients to care for?
>
> Yes.
>
> Am helping them all be cured of their cardiovascular disease:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
>
> Truth is simple :-)
>
> May GOD soften your heart, Earle, so that you would come to trust the
> truth, Who is Jesus:
The truth THAT is Jesus.
Please Chung, do not demean Jesus by reducing him to the equivalent
status of an abstract noun.
Chung, is your cardiovascular curative ability at the same level as
your grammatical skills?
Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac
wrote:
> Jan Drew wrote:
> > It won't be so easy when you see Jesus coming in the clouds of glory.
> > It will be too late for you then.
>
> > I will pray that God and his son Jesus Christ will wake you up before it is
> > too late.
>
> > Like my Mom told my atheist brother, *If I am wrong I have nothing to lose.
> > If you are wrong you have everything to lose.*
>
> > Think about it.
>
> May GOD soften up Pro-Humanist' heart so that he would come to trust
> the truth, Who is Jesus:
>
The truth THAT is Jesus. Can't you STOP elevating an abstract noun
to the level of Jesus?
Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac
wrote:
How about "the truth that Jesus represents or embodies"? Would that
do it for you or will you persist in your theologically fallacious
diminution of Jesus?
Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac
wrote:
Well done Pro-Humanist!!!
You are one of the few that has actually been able to exchange in some
sort of "dialogue" with loose cannon Chung.
Keep up the good work, you may have him on the run.
After so many posts in which he repeats his unthinking and illogical
beliefs, using biblical quotes to do his thinking for him, ahd other
acts of subversion of his own intelligence, it may dawn on Chung that
he is stuck in an infinite loop of self gratification and egotism
reinforced by pseudo and fully imaginary deistic confirmation.
Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac
wrote:
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>
> > I am as firmly convinced that religions do
> > harm as I am that they are untrue." [Bertrand
> > Russell, My Religious Reminiscences, 1938]
>
> Religions remain man-made and therefore all fall short of GOD's glory:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ce5f55696a2332e3?
>
> Truth is simple :-)
>
> May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
> trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
>
> http://T3WiJ.com
>
> Amen.
>
> Love in the truth,
What's the problem Chung, has PRO-HUMANIST got you on the run.
Sweating a little, eh?
Understandable. You DON'T have our sympathy. How about you regain
some self respect by stopping your trolling posts every day.
Citizen Jimserac
Citizen Jimserac
>
> > I am as firmly convinced that religions do
> > harm as I am that they are untrue." [Bertrand
> > Russell, My Religious Reminiscences, 1938]
>
> --
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologisthttp://WDJW.net
WHAT'S THIS???
Now you advertise yourself as a Geneticist and Molecular
Biologist?????????????
I thought you were a board certified cardiologist?
So now you actually advertise your compliance with changing the
genetic structure and genetically engineering even human genomes???
Really Chung, you ASTOUND me - does the bible give you permission to
THAT too?
Citizen Jimserac
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
> >
> > > I am as firmly convinced that religions do
> > > harm as I am that they are untrue." [Bertrand
> > > Russell, My Religious Reminiscences, 1938]
> >
> > Religions remain man-made and therefore all fall short of GOD's glory:
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ce5f55696a2332e3?
> >
> > Truth is simple :-)
> >
> > May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
> > trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
> >
> > http://T3WiJ.com
> >
> > Amen.
>
> Sweating a little, eh?
No.
Suggested reading for non-christians like you:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d14f6bf3ecc7c6db?
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Jim, so that you would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
Citizen Jimserac
wrote:
> Citizen Jimserac wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>
> > > > I am as firmly convinced that religions do
> > > > harm as I am that they are untrue." [Bertrand
> > > > Russell, My Religious Reminiscences, 1938]
>
> > > Religions remain man-made and therefore all fall short of GOD's glory:
>
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ce5f55696a2332e3?
>
> > > Truth is simple :-)
>
> > > May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
> > > trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
>
> > >http://T3WiJ.com
>
> > > Amen.
>
> > What's the problem Chung, has PRO-HUMANIST got you on the run.
> > Sweating a little, eh?
>
> No.
>
> Suggested reading for non-christians like you:
>
Wow Chung's response came almost instantly!!
Looks like PRO-HUMANIST has really started to IRRITATE Chung!
Well done PRO-
HUMANIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry Chung, but in your current, apparent, in my opinion, ZOMBIE
MENTAL state,
you WOULD'NT KNOW A CHRISTIAN FROM a toilet paper cardboard tube
catheter, ONE HOPEFULLY BIG ENOUGH FOR THE GIANT HOLES IN YOUR HEAD to
drain out all the fallacious pus that has apparently accumulated
there.
Prescription for Chung: Take three reading of any of Pro-Humanist's
postings a day and post again in two weeks.
Citizen Jimserac
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > Citizen Jimserac wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > > Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
> >
> > > > > I am as firmly convinced that religions do
> > > > > harm as I am that they are untrue." [Bertrand
> > > > > Russell, My Religious Reminiscences, 1938]
> >
> > > > Religions remain man-made and therefore all fall short of GOD's glory:
> >
> > > > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ce5f55696a2332e3?
> >
> > > > Truth is simple :-)
> >
> > > > May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
> > > > trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
> >
> > > > http://T3WiJ.com
> >
> > > > Amen.
> >
> > > What's the problem Chung, has PRO-HUMANIST got you on the run.
> > > Sweating a little, eh?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > Suggested reading for non-christians like you:
> >
>
> Wow Chung's response came almost instantly!!
A miracle :-)
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His answering
the prayers of Jesus' disciples especially when we ask...
May GOD soften your heart, Jim, so that you would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> Citizen Jimserac wrote:
>> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> > > Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>>
>> > > > I am as firmly convinced that religions do
>> > > > harm as I am that they are untrue." [Bertrand
>> > > > Russell, My Religious Reminiscences, 1938]
>>
>> > > Religions remain man-made and therefore all fall short of GOD's glory:
>>
>> > >http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ce5f55696a2332e3?
>>
>> > > Truth is simple :-)
>>
>> > > May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
>> > > trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
>>
>> > >http://T3WiJ.com
>>
>> > > Amen.
>>
>> > What's the problem Chung, has PRO-HUMANIST got you on the run.
>> > Sweating a little, eh?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> Suggested reading for non-christians like you:
>>
>
>Wow Chung's response came almost instantly!!
A miracle :-)
Laus Deo !
May GOD continue to answer the prayers of Jesus' disciples especially
by softening your heart, Jim, so that you would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote ...
>> I am as firmly convinced that religions do
>> harm as I am that they are untrue." [Bertrand
>> Russell, My Religious Reminiscences, 1938]
> Religions remain man-made and therefore
> all fall short of GOD's glory:
>
> [...]
Religions, human-made based on superstitions,
fears, wants, needs, desires, and emotions, instilled
in most children when they are vulnerable to brain-
washing at a very young age. God and Jesus, same
deal. So-called 'holy' documents, same deal.
Any questions?
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Citizen Jimserac" <Jims...@gmail.com> wrote ...
> On Mar 26, 12:55 pm, "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohu...@ghg.net>
> wrote ...
>> I am as firmly convinced that religions do
>> harm as I am that they are untrue." [Bertrand
>> Russell, My Religious Reminiscences, 1938]
>>
>> - - -
>>
>> ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
>>
>> ~~~
>> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
>> http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
>> (Freethinking Realist Exploring
>> Expressive Liberty, Openness,
>> Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
>> ~~~
> Well done Pro-Humanist!!!
>
> You are one of the few that has actually been able to exchange in some
> sort of "dialogue" with loose cannon Chung.
>
> Keep up the good work, you may have him on the run.
>
> After so many posts in which he repeats his unthinking and illogical
> beliefs, using biblical quotes to do his thinking for him, and other
> acts of subversion of his own intelligence, it may dawn on Chung
> that he is stuck in an infinite loop of self gratification and egotism
> reinforced by pseudo and fully imaginary deistic confirmation.
>
> Citizen Jimserac
On the bright side, I benefit from many years
of work on these issues, having stored a library
of doubt and disbelief information at my web-
site. I am currently in the process of transferring
the last two years of efforts from newsgroup
postings to my website.
Unfortunately, I'm finding that the limited free
time I have to work on these matters is draining
(physically) and I doubt I'll be able to keep this
up much longer (the replies to A.B.C.).
A.B.C. is unique in his reluctance to debate, his
pronounced religious-pushing, his avoidance of
responding to almost all (of not all) of almost
every post I've replied to him with.
There doesn't appear to be a thinking mind there,
in most cases, and it appears to be futile to try
to logically and rationally reason with A.B.C.
This is the first time I've run across a poster so
removed from thinking about and discussing the
topics being addressed. On the other hand, it
is refreshing that A.B.C. does not, in most (not
all) cases resort to personal attacks. Some reli-
gious types use that as a dominant part of their
debate tactics.
Anyway, thanks for your comments, and to the
extent that some of the information I've provided
(and am, so far, continuing to provide) may be
helpful to fence-sitters, doubters, disbelievers,
the ambivalent, or even to believers who may be
unaware of (or who, in many cases, have been
taught to dismiss or actively oppose) the free-
thinking and pro-human perspectives of non-
religious individuals.
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
Citizen Jimserac
wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, I'm finding that the limited free
> time I have to work on these matters is draining
> (physically) and I doubt I'll be able to keep this
> up much longer (the replies to A.B.C.).
Exactly what he is counting on, I'm sure.
>
> A.B.C. is unique in his reluctance to debate, his
> pronounced religious-pushing, his avoidance of
> responding to almost all (of not all) of almost
> every post I've replied to him with.
Your patience is amazing - I've tried several times to engage in some
sort of rational exchange from him, in order to elicit some semblance
of conversation, without success,
to communicate with an intellect - but in him, there is none left.
>
> There doesn't appear to be a thinking mind there,
> in most cases, and it appears to be futile to try
> to logically and rationally reason with A.B.C.
Indeed so - and I do not believe such an individual can function as a
practicing physician nor in any scientific or rational capacity.
>
> This is the first time I've run across a poster so
> removed from thinking about and discussing the
> topics being addressed. On the other hand, it
> is refreshing that A.B.C. does not, in most (not
> all) cases resort to personal attacks. Some reli-
> gious types use that as a dominant part of their
> debate tactics.
To do so would be most dangerous to his own psyche - it would reveal
to the one person at the center of all this, himself, the full extent
of his abdication of reason, and consequent self diminution to
something other than human. If there really was/is a God, he has
designed for man a brain to use as tool of exploration and thinking -
NOT mindless parroting repetition.
> Anyway, thanks for your comments, and to the
> extent that some of the information I've provided
> (and am, so far, continuing to provide) may be
> helpful to fence-sitters, doubters, disbelievers,
> the ambivalent, or even to believers who may be
> unaware of (or who, in many cases, have been
> taught to dismiss or actively oppose) the free-
> thinking and pro-human perspectives of non-
> religious individuals.\\
In the free society of the future that is to be, an instantiation of
the freedoms and individual liberties unleashed by the power of the
internet ensures the existence and protection of all individuals and
humanists. Their, and your, continued existence is not a luxury, it
is a necessity, to be guarded and protected against the throwbacks to
the era of witch hunts and people burned at the stake represented by
mindless repetitions and evocations of the superstitious sanctity of
"sacred" lore.
To confront the Zombie and to expose the full extent of his
abdication of all that is human as you have done so well is worthy of
praise and thanks. Again, well done!
Citizen Jimserac
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>
> >> harm as I am that they are untrue." [Bertrand
> >> Russell, My Religious Reminiscences, 1938]
>
> > Religions remain man-made and therefore
> > all fall short of GOD's glory:
> >
> > [...]
>
> Religions, human-made based on superstitions,
> fears, wants, needs, desires, and emotions, instilled
> in most children when they are vulnerable to brain-
> washing at a very young age. God and Jesus, same
> deal. So-called 'holy' documents, same deal.
>
> Any questions?
None.
Jesus is GOD, Who is not a superstition.
If this were not true, you and other non-christians would be able to
publicly say "Jesus is LORD."
Instead, you and other non-christians have been kept by GOD from being
able:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d14f6bf3ecc7c6db?
Truth is simple.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> >
> >
>
> WHAT'S THIS???
A Usenet post.
> Now you advertise yourself as a Geneticist and Molecular
> Biologist?????????????
Am both a Human Geneticist and a Molecular Biologist.
> I thought you were a board certified cardiologist?
Am a Board-certified Cardiologist, too :-)
> So now you actually advertise your compliance with changing the
> genetic structure and genetically engineering even human genomes???
No.
We, who are Human Geneticists, have not changed the genetic structure
of the human genome but rather we seek to understand and decipher it.
> Really Chung, you ASTOUND me - does the bible give you permission to
> THAT too?
It is GOD, Who allows me to do that which He guides me to do.
From Dr. Francis Collins, another Human Geneticist:
"I am a scientist and a believer, and I find no conflict between those
world views.
As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium
of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome,
our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the
information molecule of all living things, as God's language, and the
elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a
reflection of God's plan.
I did not always embrace these perspectives. As a graduate student in
physical chemistry in the 1970s, I was an atheist, finding no reason
to postulate the existence of any truths outside of mathematics,
physics and chemistry. But then I went to medical school, and
encountered life and death issues at the bedsides of my patients.
Challenged by one of those patients, who asked "What do you believe,
doctor?", I began searching for answers.
I had to admit that the science I loved so much was powerless to
answer questions such as "What is the meaning of life?" "Why am I
here?" "Why does mathematics work, anyway?" "If the universe had a
beginning, who created it?" "Why are the physical constants in the
universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life
forms?" "Why do humans have a moral sense?" "What happens after we
die?" (Watch Francis Collins discuss how he came to believe in God )
I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and
irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the
writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many
other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the
plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds. My
earlier atheist's assertion that "I know there is no God" emerged as
the least defensible. As the British writer G.K. Chesterton famously
remarked, "Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the
assertion of a universal negative."
But reason alone cannot prove the existence of God. Faith is reason
plus revelation, and the revelation part requires one to think with
the spirit as well as with the mind. You have to hear the music, not
just read the notes on the page. Ultimately, a leap of faith is
required.
For me, that leap came in my 27th year, after a search to learn more
about God's character led me to the person of Jesus Christ. Here was a
person with remarkably strong historical evidence of his life, who
made astounding statements about loving your neighbor, and whose
claims about being God's son seemed to demand a decision about whether
he was deluded or the real thing. After resisting for nearly two
years, I found it impossible to go on living in such a state of
uncertainty, and I became a follower of Jesus.
So, some have asked, doesn't your brain explode? Can you both pursue
an understanding of how life works using the tools of genetics and
molecular biology, and worship a creator God? Aren't evolution and
faith in God incompatible? Can a scientist believe in miracles like
the resurrection?
Actually, I find no conflict here, and neither apparently do the 40
percent of working scientists who claim to be believers. Yes,
evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there
was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the
study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness
to all other living things.
But why couldn't this be God's plan for creation? True, this is
incompatible with an ultra-literal interpretation of Genesis, but long
before Darwin, there were many thoughtful interpreters like St.
Augustine, who found it impossible to be exactly sure what the meaning
of that amazing creation story was supposed to be. So attaching
oneself to such literal interpretations in the face of compelling
scientific evidence pointing to the ancient age of Earth and the
relatedness of living things by evolution seems neither wise nor
necessary for the believer.
I have found there is a wonderful harmony in the complementary truths
of science and faith. The God of the Bible is also the God of the
genome. God can be found in the cathedral or in the laboratory. By
investigating God's majestic and awesome creation, science can
actually be a means of worship."
Source:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/collins.commentary/index.html
May GOD soften your heart, Jim, so that you would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
Don Kirkman
article
<06d06fcd-fb78-407b...@r37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>:
>From Dr. Francis Collins, another Human Geneticist:
>"I am a scientist and a believer, and I find no conflict between those
>world views.
I'll lay you odds that what Dr. Collins believes is nothing like your
distorted version of the Christian religion (stet!). AAMOF, many
practicing scientists are also practicing Christians, Muslims,
Buddhists, Sceptics, or Atheists. The conflict is not between science
and religion but between *your* private versions of both science and
religion.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
>
> I'll lay you odds that what Dr. Collins believes is nothing like your
> distorted version of the Christian religion (stet!).
It is likely that Dr. Collins trusts the truth, Who is Jesus:
"For me, that leap came in my 27th year, after a search to learn more
about God's character led me to the person of Jesus Christ. Here was a
person with remarkably strong historical evidence of his life, who
made astounding statements about loving your neighbor, and whose
claims about being God's son seemed to demand a decision about whether
he was deluded or the real thing. After resisting for nearly two
years, I found it impossible to go on living in such a state of
uncertainty, and I became a follower of Jesus." -- Dr. Francis Collins
Thus, it is likely that Dr. Collins has the help of the Holy Spirit so
that he is able to publicly say "Jesus is LORD" as can other
Christians:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8B_70Jp-kc
Sadly, the same can not be truthfully written about you:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f93cbbc1af8d1661?
May GOD soften your heart, Don, so that you would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
http://WDJW,net
Jan Drew
"Citizen Jimserac" <Jims...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:84a8d1dd-20ce-4a95...@v15g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Citizen Jimserac
If you read the profile of PHF, and Andrew, you will find the so called
free-lover has
over 900 posts this month. So, it is trolling.
Don Kirkman
article
>convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/e79615bfa0b76cac?
>> I'll lay you odds that what Dr. Collins believes is nothing like your
>> distorted version of the Christian religion (stet!).
>"For me, that leap came in my 27th year, after a search to learn more
>about God's character led me to the person of Jesus Christ. Here was a
>person with remarkably strong historical evidence of his life, who
>made astounding statements about loving your neighbor, and whose
>claims about being God's son seemed to demand a decision about whether
>he was deluded or the real thing. After resisting for nearly two
>years, I found it impossible to go on living in such a state of
>uncertainty, and I became a follower of Jesus." -- Dr. Francis Collins
As I wrote, " I'll lay you odds that what Dr. Collins believes is
nothing like your distorted version of the Christian religion (stet!).
. . . The conflict is not between science and religion but between
*your* private versions of both science and religion."
Thank you for proving me right.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> >
>
> As I wrote, " I'll lay you odds that what Dr. Collins believes is
> nothing like your distorted version of the Christian religion (stet!).
It is trusting Jesus in our hearts and not what thoughts may be in our
brains that results in GOD saving our souls.
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Don, so that you would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
Don Kirkman
article
>convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/93aba7fc89d70735?
>> As I wrote, " I'll lay you odds that what Dr. Collins believes is
>> nothing like your distorted version of the Christian religion (stet!).
>It is trusting Jesus in our hearts and not what thoughts may be in our
>brains that results in GOD saving our souls.
Which has nothing to do with what I wrote or what Dr. Collins
believes.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
> >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
> >> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/93aba7fc89d70735?
>
> >> As I wrote, " I'll lay you odds that what Dr. Collins believes is
> >> nothing like your distorted version of the Christian religion (stet!).
>
> > It is trusting Jesus in our hearts and not what thoughts may be in our
> > brains that results in GOD saving our souls.
>
> Which has nothing to do with what I wrote or what Dr. Collins
> believes.
It has everything to do with GOD wanting those who will worship Him in
truth and in spirit.
Religion remains a man-made mental exercise instead of a spiritual
experience with GOD:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ce5f55696a2332e3?
May GOD soften your heart, Don, so that you would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Heart Doctor
http://WDJW.net
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
As for what is 'thank'able or 'blame'able
in actuality, the totality of each individual
includes
o the present results of evolution, a fas-
cinating consequence of the past, the
processes of change, the ramifica-
tions of a non-constant environment,
and naturalistic forces at work within
the vast expanse of all that we are but
a tiny part of,
o genetic constructs, principle players
there being our parents and all ancestors
prior thereto,
o the environment each individual exists
within and has existed within, very little
of which each individual has much of
any control over, most often, for the
most part, although humans typically
perceive much more control than that
which is present, and
o every iota of stimuli provided to each
individual, including books, magazines,
newspapers, websites, other individuals,
newsgroup posts, life experiences,
chemicals, air, water, food, dreams,
subconscious brain activity, and other
natural forces/experiences, oft-times
including all sorts of magic being stories
& claims & threats -- many of which are
presented, all-too-often, as 'realities',
others presented as 'fairy tales', 'myths',
& 'fictions'.
- - -
Each moment, a succession, a product
of countless previous moments by count-
less beings, processes, and events which
once were, all of which is a part of a con-
tinuum.
Each of us impacts others, oft-times much
more than each of us realizes. Each of us
is impacted by others.
Each of us results from all mentioned above,
in the constant now, for as long as we exist
as distinct and identifiable parts of the all,
whether in life, or in memories after our pass-
ing. Then again, of course, typically, as time
passes, memories fade, and most people
& events are most often forgotten.
Unfortunately, when ultimate considerations
are pondered, myths become mountains
sometimes harmful to human progress &
welfare, and verity gets lost in the vast
expanse of all that ever was, all that is,
all that ever will be ...
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
The Problem with God:
Interview with Richard Dawkins
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/178/story_17889_1.html
- - -
Excerpts [with comments in brackets, not
part of original article]:
The renowned biologist talks about intelligent
design, dishonest Christians, and why God is
no better than an imaginary friend.
Interview by Laura Sheahen
British biologist Richard Dawkins has made
a name for himself defending evolution and
fighting what he sees as religiously motivated
attacks on science. Dr. Dawkins sat down with
Beliefnet at the World Congress of Secular
Humanism, where his keynote address focused
on intelligent design.
- - -
Laura: You're concerned about the state of edu-
cation, especially science education. If you were
able to teach every person, what would you want
people to believe?
Dawkins: I would want them to believe whatever
evidence leads them to; I would want them to
look at the evidence, judge it on its merits, not
accept things because of internal revelation or
faith, but purely on the basis of evidence.
Not everybody can evaluate all evidence; we
can't evaluate the evidence for quantum physics.
So it does have to be a certain amount of taking
things on trust. I have to take what physicists say
on trust, for example, because I'm a biologist.
But science [has] a system of appraisal, of peer
review, so that I trust the physics community to
get their act together in a way that I know from
the inside. I wish people would put their trust in
evidence, not in faith, revelation, tradition, or
authority.
- - -
Laura: What do you wish people knew about
evolution?
Dawkins: They need to understand what evolu-
tion is about. Many of them don't. I was truly
shocked to be told by two separate religious
leaders in this country [the U.S.] a few weeks
ago--they both said something to the effect
that, "I'll believe in evolution when I see a
tailed monkey give birth to a human."
That is staggering ignorance of what evolu-
tionary science is about; if they think that's
what evolutionists believe, no wonder they're
skeptical of it. How can a civilized country have
adult people in positions of leadership who
know so stunningly little about the leading bio-
logical concept?
- - -
Laura: You said in a recent speech that design
was not the only alternative to chance. A lot of
people think that evolution is all about random
chance.
Dawkins: That's ludicrous. That's ridiculous.
Mutation is random in the sense that it's not
anticipatory of what's needed. Natural selec-
tion is anything but random.
Natural selection is a guided process, guided
not by any higher power, but simply by which
genes survive and which genes don't survive.
That's a non-random process.
The animals that are best at whatever they do
-hunting, flying, fishing, swimming, digging-
whatever the species does, the individuals that
are best at it are the ones that pass on the
genes. It's because of this non-random pro-
cess that lions are so good at hunting, ante-
lopes so good at running away from lions, and
fish are so good at swimming.
- - -
Laura: There are intelligent people who have
been taught good science and evolution, and
who may choose to believe in something reli-
gious that may seem to fly in the face of sci-
ence. What do you make of that?
Dawkins: It's certainly hard to know what to
make of it. I think it's a betrayal of science.
I think they have a religious agenda which,
for reasons best known to themselves, they
elevate above science.
- - -
Laura: What are your thoughts about the des-
pair some people feel when they ponder
natural selection and random mutation? The
idea of evolution and natural selection makes
some people feel that everything is meaning-
less--people's individual lives and life in gen-
eral.
Dawkins: If it's true that it causes people to
feel despair, that's tough. It's still the truth.
The universe doesn't owe us condolence or
consolation; it doesn't owe us a nice warm
feeling inside. If it's true, it's true, and you'd
better live with it.
[A more diplomatic way of stating that is that
the truth of the matter is that within the bound-
aries of that which makes us what we are, we
have the ability to seek, to find, to know, but
only with an open mind can the door never
be closed, can reason prevail, can truth be
known.]
[To believe what some guys wrote down
(and many interpolated and changed in
various ways) over close to 2,000 or more
years ago, simply because someone says
it's good or belief in the unprovable is good,
or evidence is unnecessary, as if all that
ancient material is relevant today, as if one's
very life depended on it, that's naught but
mental enslavement to the discredited myth
machines of the past and the myth perpetu-
ation machines of the present (aka, religions,
churches, synagogues, mosques, and other
places where one is told to extinguish doubt
and just believe what the designated author-
ity figures say.)]
However, I don't think it should make one
feel depressed. I don't feel depressed.
I feel elated. My book, "Unweaving the
Rainbow," is an attempt to elevate science
to the level of poetry and to show how one
can be-in a funny sort of way-rather
spiritual about science. Not in a super-
natural sense, but there are uplifting mys-
teries to be solved. The contemplation
of the size and scale of the universe, of
the depth of geological time, of the com-
plexity of life--these all, to me, have an
inspirational quality. It makes my life
worthwhile to study them.
- - -
...
Laura: Obviously, a lot of people find the
theistic answer satisfying on another level.
What do you see as the problem with that
level?
Dawkins: What other level?
Laura: At whatever level where people say
the idea of God is very satisfying.
Dawkins: Well, of course it is. Wouldn't it be
lovely to believe in an imaginary friend who
listens to your thoughts, listens to your prayers,
comforts you, consoles you, gives you life
after death, can give you advice? Of course
it's satisfying, if you can believe it. But who
wants to believe a lie?
[The unfortunate nature of religion is that
they've (most) been taught that their imag-
inary friend called God is the ultimate evil-
doer (though whatever he/it/she/they does
is called 'good'), and will harm in the worst
way possible those humans whom he finds
displeasing for the most petty of reasons.]
[Most of them have also been taught that
the existent God is Love and Love that
God (and do what you're told, by religious
types), or else. 'Tis the threat side of faith,
not often addressed when the God pitch
(the seduction) is made, but nevertheless
deeply embedded in the world's major
faiths.]
- - -
Laura: If you had to name top sources for
optimism and hope in a naturalistic or mater-
ialistic worldview, what would they be?
Dawkins: I think there is something glorious
in the universe, in contemplating the Milky
Way galaxy, in contemplating the fact that
this is only one in billions of galaxies, con-
templating the fact that at the beginning of
the 21st century, humanity really has gone
a very long way toward understanding the
universe in which we live and the life form
of which we are a part. I find that a truly
inspirational thought.
[I concur.]
Obviously, there are other things having
nothing to do with science-music, poetry,
sex, love. These are all things that make
life, to me, extremely worth living.
[I concur, although I might add, for balance,
there is so much on the negative side of the
coin, in nature, that to ignore all of that, and
pretend that all have essentially the same
core chance at making the most of this, our
one and only certain chance at life, is far
removed from the truth, from the actual
nature of being.]
Then there's the added fact that it is the only
life we're ever going to get. Don't kid yourself
that you're going to live again after you're
dead; you're not. Make the most of the one
life you've got. Live it to the full.
[Well, within a naturalistic construct, and within
the infinity of the all, it's difficult to eliminate
the possibility, however remote, that some-
how, some way, one's cognizance will recur
in some fashion by which a naturalistically
constrained continuance would be perceived.
Likely? No. Highly unlikely? Yes.]
- - -
You've criticized the idea of the afterlife. What
do you see as the problem with a terminally
ill cancer patient believing in an afterlife?
Oh, no problem at all. I would never wish to
disabuse or disillusion somebody who be-
lieved that. I care about what's true for myself,
but I don't want to go around telling people
who are afraid of dying that their hopes are
unreal.
[That's probably true, -but- any writing that
disabuses or attempts to disabuse the audi-
ence from their religious fantasies, those
are in play when terminally ill individuals
read them. As for what one says to a ter-
minally ill individual, in person, it would be
as all conversations are, a response to
stimuli and what the brains involved parse
to the vocal chords at the moment the sti-
muli is provided.]
If I could have a word with a would-be sui-
cide bomber or plane hijacker who thinks
he's going to paradise, I would like to dis-
abuse him. I wouldn't say to him, "Don't
you see what you're doing is wrong?"
I would say, "Don't imagine for one sec-
ond you're going to paradise. You're not.
You're going to rot in the ground."
[While trying to prevent a suicide bomber
from killing him/her-self & others is a noble
goal, not likely that words such as that would
do the trick, as suicide bombers are deeply
steeped in Islamic religious myths which try
to justify killing in the name of the supposed
defense of Islam, in the name of the sup-
posed God they call Allah, from a very early
age, in most cases.]
...
- - - end excerpts - - -
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4e125109ed1c109d?
It remains much smarter and wiser to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Truth is simple :-)
Citizen Jimserac
wrote:
>
> It remains much smarter and wiser to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
>
>
> Truth is simple
>
ONLY FOR SIMPLETONS.
Citizen Jimserac
Ted L
Dawkins[fitted for destruction]:
"I would want them to believe whatever
evidence leads them to; I would want them to
look at the evidence, judge it on its merits, not
accept things because of internal revelation or
faith, but purely on the basis of evidence."
Andrew Chung[afore prepared unto glory through the faith of Jesus Christ]:
"It remains much smarter and wiser to trust the truth, Who is Jesus"
--
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of
mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Romans 9:22-23)
Ted L
wrote:
There's only one characterization that matters. That is, God's.
<http://www.libertygospeltracts.com/tracts/death/death.htm>
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> >
> > Truth is simple
> >
> ONLY FOR SIMPLETONS.
Incorrect.
It is simple for the children.
"Do not keep the children from Me for My kingdom belongs to such as
these." -- LORD Jesus Christ.
Amen.
"You must become as a child. You must be born again to see the
kingdom of GOD." -- LORD Jesus Christ
Amen.
May GOD soften your heart, Citizen Jimserac, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> It is simple for the children.
>
> [...]
More of an adult approach to the
problem, Dawkins' book and the
post on that at beliefnet.com that
you attacked:
- - -
The Problem with God:
Interview with Richard Dawkins
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/178/story_17889_1.html
- - -
As for children, too few are given
the shelter and protection against
religion that could be provided if
their parents chose to do so. Few
do (thus far) but maybe, in the fu-
ture, as humankind advances in
their departure from anachronistic
religions ...
Top 420 Books for SHANANNAREEFERS
(172-203 : Children)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/books_children.htm
SHANANNAREEFERS?
Seekers Humanists Atheists Naturalists
Agnostics Nonreligionists Nontheists Antireligionists
Realists Educationalists Experimentalists Freethinkers
Enlightened Rationalists Secularists
172. If You Had to Choose, What Would
You Do? by Sandra McLeod Humphrey,
Brian Strassburg (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157392010X
"It is never too early to begin talking with our young
people about personal values and helping them define
their own code of moral conduct. The twenty-five
problem situations presented in this book have been
developed to help you talk to your children about
values in as enjoyable and natural a way as possible.
I hope these discussions will help them develop a
sense of direction and purpose to their lives resulting
in more rewarding and more fulfilling experiences not
only for them but also for those whose lives may be
touched by their actions and choices."
173. Maybe Right, Maybe Wrong: A Guide
for Young Thinkers, by Dan Barker,
Brian Strassburg (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879757310
"Discusses learning right from wrong, stressing
such aspects as the difference between rules and
principles and the importance of an individual's
rights."
174. Maybe Yes, Maybe No: A Guide for
Young Skeptics, by Dan Barker,
Brian Strassburg (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879756071
"Excellent non-pushy kid's introduction to
skepticism. I read this book to my kids, ages
8 and 10, and they absolutely loved it. One took
it to bed that night to re-read and the other took
it to school the next day. I've never seen such
a strong positive reaction to a book from them."
175. Just Pretend: A Freethought Book
for Children, by Dan Barker
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1877733059
"Even though the approaches in the book are
consistent with my views, I wish the author had
used a gentler approach to introduce the concept
of non-belief as the 'Santa Claus as myth / God
as myth' approach may be too shocking for
children raised to believe God is real.
Then again, this book has really got my daughter
thinking critically about religion and with quite
a bit of input from an adult (especially for younger
children brought up to believe God is real), maybe
the shock approach is the best approach to get
children to *think* critically about religion rather
than just accept what they've been told without
question."
176. How Do You Know It's True? Discovering
the Difference Between Science and Superstition,
by Hyman Ruchlis
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879756578
"Far and away the best of the best of new releases
for teaching critical thinking to young people.
Actually, this is for anybody, young or old, who
still has a tendency to flirt with any form of
superstition or fairy-tale thinking or is curious
why other people do so."
177. What About Gods?, by Chris Brockman
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879751061
"This book gives a concise overview of an
immensely over complicated human condition.
The creation of god by man is explained simply
and clearly for a child. I wish I had been exposed
to this book when I was about eight years old.
It could have saved me much self doubt and
turmoil resulting from early indoctrination."
178. Peter Bedrick Young People's Encyclopedia
Religions of the World (The Peter Bedrick Young
People's Encyclopedias), by Larousse (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0872266044
"Offers readers an engaging and informative
introduction to every major religious tradition,
past and present. For each religion, historical
and cultural contexts, fundamental texts, deities,
rituals, celebrations, and current practices are
discussed.
179. The Usborne Book of World Religions
(World Religions Series), by Susan Meredith,
Nicolas Hewetson (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0746017502
"Religion has had a tremendous impact on world
history and human affairs. Focusing on the six
major religions in chronological order, details
about each bring them into vivid focus. Hinduism,
Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, and
Sikhism each have six pages of text enhanced
by striking photographs and illustrations.
As the oldest religion, Hinduism dates back to
2000 B.C. It teaches that individuals have souls
and all are trapped in an endless cycle of life.
Buddhists follow the life of Siddhartha hoping
to reach Nirvana, the moment of enlightenment.
Several other religions (Judaism, Christianity
and Islam) have a belief in one God, but most
similarities end there.
For followers of Judaism, the Torah scrolls
contain teachings, histories, and prophecies.
The various branches of Christianity follow
different doctrine, but all acknowledge Jesus's
birth and death, and celebrate similar holy days.
Islam follows the life of Muhammad, the Prophet
of God, and believers are guided by writings in
the Koran.
Sikhs are disciples of Sikhism and aim to lead
an honest life and provide service to others.
Also included in the book are--a history of past
religions, details about lesser-known faiths, maps,
a timeline, and glossary. Informative and concise
text make this a valuable research tool and an
interesting read."
180. Our Most Dear Friend : Bhagavad Gita
for Children, by Vishaka Badger, Jean Griesser
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1887089047
"The Bhagavad Gita, one of the holy writings of
the Hindu religion, is presented here as a story
that will be accessible to children."
181. The Wisdom of the Crows and Other
Buddhist Tales, by Sherab Chodzin,
Alexandra Kohn, Marie Cameron (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1883672686
"Ranging from short Zen parables to longer
folktales with dragons, goddesses, and talking
animals, these tales explore Buddhist themes of
compassion, humor, enlightenment, and life after
death. This beautifully illustrated book is perfect
for anyone interested in Buddhist ideas and
anyone who enjoys a good story. Full color."
182. Iblis, by Shulamith Levy Oppenheim,
Ed Young (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0152380167
"Iblis -- Satan -- wants to enter Paradise, so he
coerces the peacock to send out the serpent and
enters Paradise hidden between the serpent's teeth.
After Iblis persuades Eve to eat from the forbidden
wheat tree, God punishes both peacock and serpent
and expels Adam and Eve. Young's magnificent,
impressionistic art captures the mysterious quality
of the Islamic story."
183. The Tree of Life : The Wonders of
Evolution, by Ellen Jackson, Judeanne Winter
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879758198
"A simple explanation of the process of evolution,
from the first appearance of 'almost alive things'
to the development of the millions of life forms
that exist today."
184. The Evolution Book,
by Sara Bonnett Stein (Illustrator),
Rona Beame (Photographer)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/089480927X
"Text, experiments, projects, investigations, and
plentiful pictures show the reader how to unlock
the secrets of the earth by investigating woodlands,
beaches, and mountains."
185. Planet Ocean : A Story of Life, the Sea,
and Dancing to the Fossil Record,
by Bradford Matsen, Ray Troll (Contributor)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0898157781
"Artist Troll and writer Matsen combine their
professional skills with erudition and a good
sense of humor as they trip through the fossil
record in this engaging history of evolution."
186. Raptors, Fossils, Fins & Fangs :
A Prehistoric Creature Feature,
by Ray Troll (Illustrator), Brad Matsen
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1883672759
"Long ago, even before there were dinosaurs, some
water creatures made their way out of the ocean
onto land. This is the story of those life-forms,
and some of the weird and cool creatures that
came before and after them--including humans."
187. Dinosaur Tree
by Douglas Henderson
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0027435474
"Employing beautiful lifelike illustrations and an
engaging text, the author takes us through the long
life of a tree that lives for more than 500 years.
This proud conifer stands tall, silently witnessing
the coming and going of a multitude of plant and
animal life during the late Triassic period.
Even after the tree is felled by a windstorm, its life
goes on as a kind of footbridge stretched across
a stream. How this tree came to rest in Arizona,
on the site of what is now the Petrified Forest
National Park, unfolds gracefully with page after
page of quiet, simply stated text and luminous
paintings."
188. The Beast in You! : Activities & Questions
to Explore Evolution, by Marc McCutcheon,
Michael P. Kline (Illustrator), Cindy Blobaum
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1885593368
"Did you ever look in the mirror and notice evolution
staring back at you? Some kids don't believe we
evolved from animals. But all they may need to
be convinced is a close examination of their own
bodies."
189. Eyewitness: Evolution, by Linda Gamlin
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/078945579X
"Evolution is beautifully covered in true Eyewitness
style, with colorful photographs and captions briefly
discussing Eastern and Western creation stories,
fossils and early theories behind their creation,
Lamarck's and Darwin's theories, as well as DNA,
genetics, and the origin of life."
190. Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
(Book 1), by J. K. Rowling
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0590353403
"Obviously, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
should make any modern 11-year-old a very happy
reader. The novel moves quickly, packs in everything
from a boa constrictor that winks to a melancholy
Zen-spouting centaur to an owl postal system, and
ends with a scary surprise."
191. Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
(Book 2), by J. K. Rowling
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0439064864
"...The mystery, zany humor, sense of a traditional
British school (albeit with its share of ghosts,
including Moaning Myrtle who haunts the girls'
bathroom), student rivalry, and eccentric faculty,
all surrounded by the magical foundation so
necessary in good fantasy, are as expertly crafted
here as in the first book."
192. Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
(Book 3), by J. K. Rowling
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0439136350
"For most children, summer vacation is something
to look forward to. But not for our 13-year-old hero,
who's forced to spend his summers with an aunt,
uncle, and cousin who detest him. Once again,
Rowling has created a mystery that will have
children and adults cheering, not to mention
standing in line for her next book."
193. Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
(Book 4), by J. K. Rowling,
Mary Grandpre (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0439139597
"Long before her fourth installment appeared,
Rowling warned that it would be darker, and it's
true that every exhilaration is equaled by a moment
that has us fearing for Harry's life, the book's
emotions running as deep as its dangers."
194. Where the Wild Things Are,
by Maurice Sendak (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060254920
"One of those truly rare books that can be enjoyed
equally by a child and a grown-up. If you disagree,
then it's been too long since you've attended a
wild rumpus. Max dons his wolf suit in pursuit of
some mischief and gets sent to bed without supper.
Fortuitously, a forest grows in his room, allowing
his wild rampage to continue unimpaired. Sendak's
color illustrations (perhaps his finest) are beautiful,
and each turn of the page brings the discovery of
a new wonder."
195. DK Children's Illustrated Encyclopedia
(Revised Edition)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0789427877
"It's a curious youngster's dream come true! DK's
Children's Illustrated Encyclopedia is an engaging
visual guide to the world--with 450 one-to-two-page
main entries that are written and checked by experts
and arranged in alphabetical order from 'Aboriginal
Australians' to 'Zoos.'..."
196. The Reader's Digest Children's Atlas
of the World, by Colin Sale (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1575843722
"Full of amazing facts, colorful maps--physical and
political, hands-on projects, 'Look Again' activities,
features, locator globes, over 3,000 illustrations,
records, charts, and so much more. Divided into
continents, each section of the atlas explores a
different part of the world, providing information
on the people, wildlife, landscape, politics, culture,
and more."
197. Usborne Science Encyclopedia (Encyclopedias
Series) by Annable Craig, Cliff Rosney,
Chris Lyon (Illustrator), Guy Smith (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0746030525
198. The Oxford Children's Book of Science,
by Charles Taylor, Stephen Pople
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195211650
"An important introduction linking scientific
concepts to daily experiences, providing kids
in advanced elementary through middle school
grade levels with clear explorations of basic
scientific principles. Text is illustrated with
plenty of exciting color photos, diagrams,
and cut-aways which clarify the science being
presented. Many a young adult and adult will
want to refer to this collection of basics before
moving on into advanced reading."
199. Janice Vancleave's Science Around
the Year, by Janice Pratt Vancleave
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471330965
"With fun facts and brand-new experiments for
every week of the year, kids can explore various
fields of science, including astronomy, biology,
chemistry, earth science, and physics while
developing problem-solving strategies."
200. 101 Things Every Kid Should Know
About Science, by Samantha Beres,
Arthur Friedman (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565659163
"This book introduces children to 101 basic
science concepts, helping to build a solid
foundation in this important area. Throughout
the book, fascinating sidebars on important
scientists and amazing scientific facts are
featured. Realistic illustrations help explain
concepts."
201. It's So Amazing! : A Book About Eggs,
Sperm, Birth, Babies, and Families,
by Robie H. Harris, Michael Emberley (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0763600512
"Talking to children about where babies come from
can be difficult on the parents and on the kids. But
It's So Amazing might make it a little easier. Give it
to your child to read or better yet, sit down and read
it together. Interesting discussions are sure to follow.
Written in comic-book style, this book addresses
many topics, including conception, birth, love,
sexuality and family, in a gentle and respectful
manner."
202. It's Perfectly Normal : Changing Bodies,
Growing Up, Sex, and Sexual Health,
by Robie H. Harris, Michael Emberley (Illustrator)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564021599
"Visually, the book presents extremely well -- it's
in color throughout, has enjoyable pictures (colored
pencil drawings), and is not afraid of using nudity
in pictures. It contains some great cartoons
animating the processes of menstruation ('The
Travels of the Egg'), ejaculation ('The Travels of
the Sperm'), pregnancy ('The Further Adventures
of the Egg and Sperm'), and birth ('What a Trip!').
The attitudes expressed are excellent, beginning
with the bird and bee characters expressing different
feelings about learning about sexuality -- the bird
finds everything fascinating and is very positive
towards learning more; the bee feels more hesitant,
wanting time to feel ready. The positive attitude
towards nudity I've mentioned already; the attitudes
towards (for example) homosexuality, non-nuclear
families, race, and masturbation demonstrate an
acceptance of difference, a respect for others,
and a positive attitude to it all."
203. Life : Our Century in Pictures for Young
People, by Richard B. Stolley (Editor),
Amy E. Sklansky (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316815896
"More than 380 remarkable photographs from Life
magazine's archives that make this volume truly epic.
... From politics to art to technology to science to
social change, this book touches on it all, and will
be a tremendous resource for years to come."
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Ted L" wrote ...
> There's only one characterization that matters. That is, God's.
Prove God exists. Prove any bible passage
is God's word. Prove any quran passage is
God's word. Prove any religious passage is
God's word.
What's that? You can't? Well then, saying it
doesn't make it so, not the first time you say
it, not the first time a bible passage says it,
not the first time anyone says it, not the first
time any religious document says it.
The second time? No better than it was the
first time.
The one millionth time? No better than it was
the first time. In fact, without one iota of any
evidence that anything in any holy document
or in any God pitches is true, it only gets worse
each time it's repeated ... worse, and worse,
and worse, with every child indoctrinated to
follow it, with every religion pushing it into
the minds and hearts of children, with every
government that props it up and supports it,
with every institution that props it up and sup-
ports it.
Any questions?
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> "Ted L" wrote ...
>
> > There's only one characterization that matters. That is, God's.
Amen.
> Prove God exists.
The following proof is from and by GOD:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Love in the truth,
Sanity's Little Helper
posteth:
> Truth is simple :
http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/fraudreport.html
--
David Silverman
aa #2208
Defender of Civilisation
if a tree falls in the woods, what are the odds it will land in some bear
shit ?
Not authentic without this signature.
Sanity's Little Helper
posteth:
> It remains much smarter and wiser to trust the truth, and report it:
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>> "Ted L" wrote ...
>> > There's only one characterization that matters. That is, God's.
> Amen.
>> Prove God exists.
> The following proof is from and by GOD [...]
God is myth, and every statement about
God's position is leveraged off of asser-
tions of power. Funny thing, for all the
assertions of power, no matter how many
millions pray for it, the supposedly all-
powerful God can't or won't move a
penny an inch. Human imagination, that's
all that's in play in the God game, and to
the extent that humans can escape, they
can free themselves from the threats and
anti-humanism typified by the following ...
- - -
HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL !!!!!!
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/hell.htm
- - -
- - -
The Hell You Say ... what the hell is hell?
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/the_hell_you_say.htm
- - -
- - -
Islam Hell
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/islam_hell.htm
- - -
- - -
Why Children Should Be Protected From the Bible and Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/children_protected.htm
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> >> "Ted L" wrote ...
>
> >> > There's only one characterization that matters. That is, God's.
>
> > Amen.
>
> >> Prove God exists.
>
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
>
> God is myth, and every statement about
> God's position is leveraged off of asser-
> tions of power.
That would be an assertion of GOD's power.
Myths don't have power.
Therefore, GOD is not a myth.
The power in Jesus' name is from GOD.
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)
Amen.
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
God is myth, and every statement about
God's position is leveraged off of asser-
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> God is myth
It is GOD Who is keeping you and other non-christians from publicly
saying "Jesus is LORD" as has been revealed earlier here on Usenet:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
Truth is simple.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Excerpt from a post I made on March 30, 2001:
"I reject hell as an absurdity and an abomination and
as unworthy of whatever it is that makes us human.
Those who believe Atheists will burn in hell forever
for a mere lack of belief in a silent and invisible god
are misguided ...", at best, and at worst, reference
the non-diagnosis of Madeline Kara Newmann, who
died, tragically, at the age of 11, due to non-diagnosis
of type 1 diabetes per her parents' fundamentalist
God faith for a recent example of the terrible risk the
hell mindset instills in parents and children around
the world who are subjected to it, in a generational
cycle of brainwashing, when they are too young to
know any better.
The 9-11 mass murderers? Same deal, different reli-
gion / different "God", same threat engine used (hell),
same seduction engine used (heaven -and- a supposed
all-powerful 'friend' that you better pray to / believe in /
fear / follow or, well, see threat engine for details).
The psychological damage / blackmail most are con-
tinuing to inflict on children is pernicious / vile / cor-
rupting, and *must* end, and it's up to us, all of us,
to end it, to stop brainwashing children into believing
in the heaven seductions paired with the horrific im-
mortal torture / oblivion threats most promise their
kids they'll get if they don't believe what the God-
pusher (they happen to be supporting) says.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Excerpt from a post I made on March 30, 2001:
>
> "I reject hell as an absurdity and an abomination and
> as unworthy of whatever it is that makes us human.
> Those who believe Atheists will burn in hell forever
> for a mere lack of belief in a silent and invisible god
> are misguided ...", at best, and at worst, reference
> the non-diagnosis of Madeline Kara Newmann, who
> died, tragically, at the age of 11, due to non-diagnosis
> of type 1 diabetes per her parents' fundamentalist
> God faith for a recent example of the terrible risk the
> hell mindset instills in parents and children around
> the world who are subjected to it, in a generational
> cycle of brainwashing, when they are too young to
> know any better.
Actually, Madeline was murdered by her parent's delusion that "hunger
is starvation" which blinded them from seeing that when Madeline was
no longer hungry from DKA that something was terribly wrong.
As it is written, satan has been the source of all lies from the very
beginning and therefore has been a murderer from the beginning.
When folks believe satan's lies, deadly delusions germinate in their
hearts.
Only the truth can set folks free from these deadly delusions.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>> Excerpt from a post I made on March 30, 2001:
>>
>> "I reject hell as an absurdity and an abomination and
>> as unworthy of whatever it is that makes us human.
>> Those who believe Atheists will burn in hell forever
>> for a mere lack of belief in a silent and invisible god
>> are misguided ...", at best, and at worst, reference
>> the non-diagnosis of Madeline Kara Newmann, who
>> died, tragically, at the age of 11, due to non-diagnosis
>> of type 1 diabetes per her parents' fundamentalist
>> God faith for a recent example of the terrible risk the
>> hell mindset instills in parents and children around
>> the world who are subjected to it, in a generational
>> cycle of brainwashing, when they are too young to
>> know any better.
> Actually, Madeline was murdered by her parent's delusion [...]
Exactly, the same delusion that you're
promoting in these newsgroups.
- - -
- - -
HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL !!!!!!
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/hell.htm
- - -
- - -
The Hell You Say ... what the hell is hell?
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/the_hell_you_say.htm
- - -
- - -
Islam Hell
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/islam_hell.htm
- - -
- - -
Why Children Should Be Protected From the Bible and Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/children_protected.htm
- - -
- - -
Repeat of the post A.B.C. had no cogent reply to:
Excerpt from a post I made on March 30, 2001:
"I reject hell as an absurdity and an abomination and
as unworthy of whatever it is that makes us human.
Those who believe Atheists will burn in hell forever
for a mere lack of belief in a silent and invisible god
are misguided ...", at best, and at worst, reference
the non-diagnosis of Madeline Kara Neumann, who
died, tragically, at the age of 11, due to non-diagnosis
of type 1 diabetes per her parents' fundamentalist
God faith for a recent example of the terrible risk the
hell mindset instills in parents and children around
the world who are subjected to it, in a generational
cycle of brainwashing, when they are too young to
know any better.
The 9-11 mass murderers? Same deal, different reli-
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
>
> Exactly, the same delusion that you're
> promoting in these newsgroups.
Incorrect.
See subject line above.
Suggest additional reading:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
Truth is simple :-)
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
The Nature of Non-Acceptance
... How do you get to heaven and avoid hell, per Islam?
How do you get to heaven and avoid hell, per Hinduism?
How do you get to heaven and avoid hell, per Buddhism?
How do you get to heaven and avoid hell, per the various
aspects of Christianity, for the Catholic view and the
Protestant view and the Mormon view and the Jehovah's
Witness view, just to name a few Christian views, there?
How to you get to heaven and avoid hell, per Judaism?
Is there a heaven, any heaven as iterated by any religion?
Is there a hell, any hell as iterated by any religion?
Honestly, ask yourself the questions iterated above,
just a few of the key questions regarding religion, and
can you make sense of it all on a level that bespeaks
of any singular faith or faith for all making more sense
than non-acceptance of faith?
If non-acceptance of faith makes more sense than
acceptance of faith (key point, there, as that's a
rational / logical issue to be considered apart from
social / cultural influences, as the claims made for a
foreign religion apart from one's culture, like Hinduism
for most readers of this post, for example, must be
given equal weight, on a rational/logical basis, to the
claims made for the other religions listed in this post,
not to mention the religions not listed in this post)
-and-
There is a legitimate and sincere desire to promote
the best life on earth for all humans, then ...
... Doesn't it make more sense to pursue pro-human
efforts free of faith than it does to rely on a single
faith or faith combo just for the sake of clinging to
something akin to the social / cultural influences you've
been exposed to from birth?
Isn't that a good thing, the effort to be pro-human free
from trying to mold it to the religions created for a vari-
ety of reasons by a variety of folks, with said religions
impossible to reconcile with one another?
God? Ask a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, Protes-
tant, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, or other individual
of faith, and you'll get a milieu of distanced or genuine
replies, and you'll find it's extremely hard to get a handle
on what, exactly, the God being talked about is, as they
just don't reconcile with one another unless you diminish
them to something akin to that which does not justify a
Hindu being any different from a Buddhist or Catholic
and, when taken one small step further, you have all
humans for all humans whether there's a god of any
religion or not. ...
Anyway, I digress, the point I'm making is that you can
be very pro-human, loving, giving, caring, kind, gentle,
nurturing, benefiting, contributory, creative, naturally-
inclined towards positivity, truthful, and a whole host
of other generally and wonderfully good and uplifting
levels, being a complete and fulfilled human being in
a world of wonder ...
... by *choosing* to be pro-human, free of faith.
It's an alternative for you and yours, through which
humans can try to make a better world for us and our
children, taking full and total responsibility for our fate
free of faith. It's a good thing, apart from that which
many religious authority figures and foundational reli-
gious documents say.
Look to the good side of being human, your nurturing,
giving, caring, loving side. Know that you can *choose*
to be that way without threats and imaginary beings
being involved.
See FREELOVER link in sig for details, and if you keep
the faith, any faith, please do it with love for your fellow
humans, in this life, on this earth, at this time, in full know-
ledge of that which is a natural world that enables humans
to *choose*, and it is a choice each of us can make, to
*choose* to be pro-human.
- - -
HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL !!!!!!
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/hell.htm
- - -
- - -
The Hell You Say ... what the hell is hell?
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/the_hell_you_say.htm
- - -
- - -
Islam Hell
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/islam_hell.htm
- - -
- - -
Why Children Should Be Protected From the Bible and Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/children_protected.htm
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> The Nature of Non-Acceptance
>
> ... How do you get to heaven and avoid hell, per Islam?
>
> How do you get to heaven and avoid hell, per Hinduism?
>
> How do you get to heaven and avoid hell, per Buddhism?
>
> How do you get to heaven and avoid hell, per the various
> aspects of Christianity, for the Catholic view and the
> Protestant view and the Mormon view and the Jehovah's
> Witness view, just to name a few Christian views, there?
>
> How to you get to heaven and avoid hell, per Judaism?
>
> Is there a heaven, any heaven as iterated by any religion?
>
> Is there a hell, any hell as iterated by any religion?
>
> Honestly, ask yourself the questions iterated above,
> just a few of the key questions regarding religion, and
> can you make sense of it all on a level that bespeaks
> of any singular faith or faith for all making more sense
> than non-acceptance of faith?
Suggested viewing:
http://www.interviewwithgod.com/forgiven
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
... Why not?
Boom - it's travel to Heaven and Hell day,
whoosh - we're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard
of heaven and hell ...
Heaven - hey - far out ...
Hell - bummer, dude, too hot to handle.
whoosh - we're back to earth.
Now, I know quite a few who are into the heavy-weight
free will, omnipotent, omniscient, etc... discussions on
god/heaven/hell, but
I ask you,
For the man/woman on the street,
For the children,
The above scenario,
If there was a 'loving' god, why not?
Easy to do, you have free will to choose between heaven
or hell, really, and if all chose heaven, would that be such
a bad deal (aside from the slavery to a being willing to tor-
ture beings forever and the likelihood that, hey, you'd pro-
bably end up in hell eventually, anyway, 'cause who could
trust a creature who'd threaten you with such a thing)?
If there is no god, that explains it, can't happen because
all the stuff is made up ...
If there is a god, hey, easy to do, nothing to it, whoosh -
whoosh ...
Now, being that the whoosh - whoosh deal ain't in the bible
and being that nary a soul can justify the lack of such a
scenario by virtue of bible stuff, all we're left with is ...
You got it, humans explaining why god doesn't give us free
will (like in a real choice between two real things) on heaven
or hell but does give us free will on lying/killing/raping/des-
troying ...
Seems his/her/its/their priorities are a bit out of whack -or-
god/heaven/hell/christ/satan - the entire lot of 'em are inven-
tions of human imagination.
What say you, yea or nay, and why, pray tell, enslave your-
self to such an obviously false, illogical, irrational, non-sensi-
cal concept as an invisible deity who forces you to 'choose'
based on 'no evidence'/'nothing other than claims/threats',
when ...
whoosh - whoosh, any *loving* god could/would create a
system of really free will for the heaven-hell choice.
You say, well we do have a choice ... you can choose to go
to something which you have no evidence for -or- you can
choose to go to something which you have no evidence for.
That's a choice?
If I told you believe I'm 10 foot tall, and you'll get a million
dollars -or- disbelieve and I'll set you on fire and make it burn
real slowly so you suffer incredible pain for as long as possible,
would you
a) consider that a threat,
b) ask for proof,
c) say you believe just in case it would garner you a million
dollarsor just in case you might burn and suffer horrible
agony,
d) call the cops, or
e) call me a kook?
Wouldn't you think, man, that's crazy?
If you chose b, would I say - nah, to have 'free will', I must
not provide *any* evidence of my claim. Sorry, but if I pro-
vided evidence of my claim, you would be denied 'free will'?
I think not. Clearly, if I provide evidence of my claim, you
have a choice and you would 'choose' to believe, in essence,
becoming a slave to my demand to believe and get rich or
disbelieve and suffer horrible pain.
You see, whether or not evidence is provided is beside the
point, if the conditions exist as asserted, you're screwed, for
I have determined you will either be rich or suffer horrible
pain and to get rich you must be a slave to someone who has
threatened you with horrible pain.
Whether I blame that on you or not, it doesn't matter. Does it
make more sense for me to tell you you're evil and despicable
and worthy of torment *unless* you believe I am 10 foot tall,
with no evidence, by the way? Absurd, isn't it? Despicable
and anti-human - outrageous - criminally insane.
Having set the rules, I must take responsibility for the conse-
quences of my rules - if I provide no evidence for my claim/
threats, I'm a despicable creature who deserves to suffer the
worst fate imaginable. If I provide evidence of my claim/
threat, I'm still a despicable creature who deserves to suffer
the worst fate imaginable.
You see, the crime there is not the person who refuses to be-
lieve that I'm 10 foot tall, the crime is that I have created a
threat scenario in which I am a criminal no matter what hap-
pens, no matter what evidence, no matter what exists. I am
a criminal because I have threatened another human being
with pain/horror.
No amount of goodies for belief can offset the hideousness
of threatening someone with torment, and providing evidence
does *not* reduce the hideousness of the threat nor does it
force you to like accepting the million dollars.
Therein lies the fatal flaw of faith - bow to an evil deity - accept
that you *deserve* eternal torment/death - you've *earned* it -
and believe in god/christ/heaven/hell/devils/angels (a 10 foot
tall me) and go to heaven (million dollars) -or- burn in hell/die
(burn slowly and painfully for as long as possible)
-and- IT'S YOUR FAULT if you don't bend over and enslave
yourself to god (a 10 foot tall me, which, by the way, doesn't
exist).
- - -
If you lose the faith, chances are increased that you'll be able
to appreciate the sanity of living life free of faith, and you'll
be happier, you'll be freer, and your children and succeeding
generations will be free, finally, truly free of the risks inherent
in blind faith in imaginary beings.
May humans bless you and be with you in our mysterious jour-
ney ... as the earth circles the sun ... as the solar system circles
the galaxy ... as we continue on in hope - peace - joy - love -
a oneness with nature and with each other - seeking to become
all that we can be - at this time - in this life - on this earth, and
beyond ...
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>... Why not?
Not what GOD wants:
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to
Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where
he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus
by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and
send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
because I am in agony in this fire.'
But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received
your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is
comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us
and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go
from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'"
-- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 16:22-26)
Amen.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist, Molecular Biologist,
Computer Programmer, Electrical Engineer,
and Board-certified Cardiologist :-)
http://EmoryCardiology.com
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
September 2, 2001
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/prohumanistfreeloverdaily/090201.htm
- - -
Excerpt:
Religious Injuriousness
The future - unknown ...
The now? All that is.
The ultimate meaning of life is to find the veritable
ultimate meaning of life. Sex, food, drugs, rock
and roll, drink, status, social contacts, art, freedom
from authority, emotional fulfillment, education,
philosophical exploration, love, child-rearing, and
a whole host of other concepts offer humans mean-
ing on many levels apart from and intertwined with
absolute or ultimate ones.
To exist, ah, therein resides the fulfillment of that
which is the eternal now.
One might ask, how does one know there is no god?
One might add, how does one know there is a finality
to that which is this eternal now?
To the first, I would reply that the evidence is clear
that humans created the concept of god and placed
it (and continue to place it) in innumerable boxes,
confined by human expectations, wants, fears, desires.
To the latter, I would reply that one cannot know obli-
vion, although one can determine that based on all that
is, the destiny for each of us may very well be oblivion.
We are offered samples of oblivion each and every
night, in our obliviousness to all that takes place out-
side our sleeping departure from the world of con-
sciousness. Also, recall that each of us emerged from
a world of oblivion prior to that precious initial con-
scious moment when each of us, for the first time, felt
alive, emerging from nothingness.
We are no more and no less, on an absolute and ultimate
level, than the totality of all that is. What is that totality?
Unknown, but some of the brightest human minds on
the planet are working on it (and those minds are focused
on finding ultimate answers via scientific pursuits, not via
the empty promises and inherent limitations of religion).
A better way than religious injuriousness?
A seeking mind ...
(divorced from faith/belief, accepting of the verity of a
natural world, at one with that which is the ultimate natural
destiny for all of us, apart from all the brainwashed fear
of imaginary beings that most have been exposed to 'til
now by bible/church/peers and our society) ...
yields an opportunity to be at peace with that which is
the reality of our natural / ongoing / ever-progressing /
eye-opening / mind-expanding / thrilling and inspiring ...
revelation of that which is a natural world of wonder ...
and mystery ...
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
Preface : CNN posted information today, 9/21/00,
which pertains to a controversial subject, Jesus Christ,
said subject having stirred up emotions on all sides of
the issue, amongst disbelievers / doubters / believers.
The information regards a recently published book, -The
Jesus Mysteries-, by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy.
The authors of the book consider themselves to be
Christians, in the Gnostic mode, while not believing that
Jesus Christ actually existed. I've included excerpts here,
but if you're interested in the entire story regarding this
book, please read the entire articles linked to in this
post.
For disbelievers, this material should be helpful when
discussing disbelief with those who claim that the Jesus
Christ of the New Testament existed. For doubters,
this should help clarify perspectives on the New
Testament which differ from those traditionally held.
For believers, this material should help guide you in
deciding if Jesus Christ really did any of the things
mentioned in the New Testament, and if not, how
you should direct your faith if you decide to hold
on to it.
Of course, this is but one book, so as with all written
material, including holy documents, one should read
and assess the material and compare it to real life
experience and other documents, in the interest of
pursuit of truth.
- - -
Raising a holy ruckus
The Jesus Mysteries-' opens a controversial can
of worms
September 21, 2000
Web posted at: 1:46 p.m. EDT (1746 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/09/21/jesus.mysteries/index.html
- - -
Excerpts:
"Timothy Freke doesn't sound like an evil intellectual
intent on destroying the moral underpinnings of our
society, but he is certain to be accused of being just
that.
Soft spoken and articulate, he seems like a man
with the best intentions, a person who truly wishes
to improve the state of religion and spirituality in
Western society.
So what's all the fuss about?
Freke, along with his lifelong friend Peter Gandy,
is the author of -The Jesus Mysteries-, a radical
new look at Christian origins that suggests that
Jesus the man did not exist at all.
Freke and Gandy pose the view that Jesus was
a mythical character created in the mold of the
mythological Osiris/Dionysus god-man character.
While the so-called 'Quest for the Historical Jesus'
is nothing new, the thesis in -The Jesus Mysteries-
takes the mission one step further.
Authors Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy contend
in their book -The Jesus Mysteries- that the Jesus
of the New Testament was a mythical figure.
... most scholars agree that a man known as Jesus
of Nazareth existed and was crucified around
A.D. 30.
Freke and Gandy challenge that assumption, and
also take on another major belief: the preeminence
of the Roman Catholic belief system in early
Christianity.
The mystics speak for themselves - Until 1947,
when a group of ancient manuscripts were
discovered near Nag Hammadi in Egypt, little
was known about the mystic Christian groups
known as the Gnostics. The only information
came from orthodox writers, usually in the
form of a polemic.
The discovery of the actual Gnostic texts allowed
the mystics to speak for themselves for the first
time in nearly 2000 years.
... The Gnostic tradition is now revealed to be
widespread, he added, and has its own take on
matters.
'It's about listening to the losers (the Gnostics),'
said Freke. 'We've listened to the winners, and
their story doesn't make any sense. So let's listen
to the losers and see if their story makes more
sense. And we think it does.'
... Far from being turned off Christianity by their
research, Freke and Gandy say their premise actually
strengthened their faith.
'What it's done,' Freke said, 'is completely transform
our understanding of Christianity. Its message is not
tied to belief in a historical event, so that you either
believe it happened, or you don't -- and if you believe
it, you're saved, and if not, you're damned.
What we've discovered is that the message of original
Christianity was far deeper than that. It was about, for
the original Christians, becoming a Christ oneself.
... 'The key thing really is understanding that the Jesus
story as we have it is a myth,' he said. 'We can argue
in the dark about whether it was based on a living man,
but the fact is that if all that remains are these mythic
archetypes that pre-dated the Jesus story and have
been laid onto somebody, then still what we have is
a myth.' ...
Excerpt: -The Jesus Mysteries-
September 21, 2000
Web posted at: 1:46 p.m. EDT (1746 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/beginnings/09/21/
excerpt.jesus.mysteries/index.html
Review: Jesus, man or myth
September 21, 2000
Web posted at: 1:46 p.m. EDT (1746 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/reviews/09/21/
review.jesus.mysteries/index.html
The Jesus Mysteries:
Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God?
by Tim Freke, Patty Gift (editor), Peter Gandy
Pub. Date: August 2000
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/bookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?ISBN=060960581X
Excerpt:
"From the Publisher - This astonishing book com-
pletely undermines the traditional history of Christianity
that has been perpetuated for centuries by the Church.
Drawing on the cutting edge of modern scholarship,
authors Tim Freke and Peter Gandy present
overwhelming evidence that the Jesus of the New
Testament is a mythical figure.
Far from being eyewitness accounts, as is traditionally
held, the Gospels are actually Jewish adaptations of
ancient Pagan myths of the dying and resurrecting
godman Osiris-Dionysus. The supernatural story of
Jesus is not the history of a miraculous Messiah, but
a carefully crafted spiritual allegory designed to guide
initiates on a journey of mystical discovery.
A little more than a century ago most people believed
that the strange story of Adam and Eve was history;
today it is understood to be a myth. Within a few
decades, Freke and Gandy argue, we will likewise be
amazed that the fabulous story of God incarnate -- who
was born of a virgin, who turned water into wine, and
who rose from the dead -- could have been interpreted
as anything but a profound parable. ..."
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Jesus is the truth:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/Bottomline
Truth is simple :-)
James
>Re: HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL HELL !!!!!!
Hello,
The God of Genesis 1:1 is not that way.
Are you a loving father? Would you torture your child with fire in
order to punish him? Sane people would find that sadistic and mentally
sick etc. And would not most governmental authorities arrest such a
person? That would seem to make them have better morals than God,
wouldn't it.
No, the God of the Bible never created such a sadistic place as
Christendom's "hell". Actually, the real true "hell" of the Bible is
nothing like that at all. It is a 'cold', silent place, where ALL the
dead temporarily go, both good and bad, as the World Book Encyclopedia
puts it:
"In Old Testament times, the Israelites believed that all the dead,
both good and evil, went to a dark, unhappy place called Sheol."
Yes, according to the Bible, "sheol" (hell) and its Greek equivalent
"hades" (hell) refer to the same place. It is the place "all the dead,
both good and evil," go to when they die.
Of course there is a lot that can be discussed on this subject. But
just keep in mind that the Bible does not present sheol and hades as
being a literal place of fiery torture. If that were true, then when
why would the righteous man Job want to go there (sheol) to get RELIEF
from his terrible afflictions? Just answer that. Job 14:13,
"Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell [sheol],
and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt
remember me?" (Douay) (brackets mine)
Sincerely, James
If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I do
not follow all conversations in ng threads
***********************************
Want a FREE home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses Questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"James" <bir...@peoplepc.com> wrote ...
>"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohu...@ghg.net>
>>> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
- - -
Bible and Hell
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/hell.html
- - -
- - -
What the Bible says about Torture
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/torture.html
- - -
- - -
Per the Bible, God's intentions regarding Hell
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/all_saved.html
- - -
- - -
Quran and Hell
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/topics/hell.html
- - -
- - -
What the Quran says about Hell
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/says_about/hell.html
- - -
- - -
What the Quran says about Christians and Jews going to Hell
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/christians_hell.html