OT : Historical perspective of "diet" in treating diabetes
GysdeJongh
I just found this remarkable article.The macronutrient content of the "ideal
diet for diabetes" moves around in cycles starting a century ago and
contains famous and familiar names .... :) I included the e-mail adress
of the author.Most will let you have a copy if you explain why you are
interested.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19018511?dopt=Citation
Diabetologia. 2008 Nov 19.
Diet, delusion and diabetes.
Sawyer L, Gale EA.
Department of Dietetics, North Bristol Trust, Southmead Hospital, Bristol,
UK.
PMID: 19018511
L. Sawyer
Department of Dietetics, North Bristol Trust, Southmead Hospital,
Bristol, UK
E. A. M. Gale (*)
Diabetes and Metabolism, Medical School Unit,
Southmead Hospital,
Bristol BS10 5NB, UK
e-mail: Edwin...@bristol.ac.uk
Futile cycles?
Diet is good for diabetes, as everyone agrees, but which diet? The word
itself has acquired such negative associations that professionals now prefer
to talk of medical nutrition therapy, abbreviated to MNT to avoid the
negative connotations of the word 'nutrition'.
Three related health benefits might be expected from a diet for diabetes:
improved metabolic control, weight loss, and reduced risk of vascular
disease. From a patient's point of view, you diet because you want to lose
weight, a desire typically expressed in the future conditional, as in 'I
really must think about going on a diet'.
Overweight cannot be divorced from emotion, and its consequences cannot be
measured in kilograms, for its true costs to the individual must be paid in
the currency of the soul. Let us therefore ask a much simpler question:
weight loss apart, which diet is best for diabetes? The recent American
Diabetes Association (ADA) guidelines, drafted in the light of 150 years of
experience in the dietary management of diabetes, conclude that we lack the
evidence needed to reach a conclusion [3].
Will we ever find the right answer? Or are we asking the wrong questions?
From an historical perspective, it is easy to see that the investigators of
diet have confused circular motion with progress. The very low carbohydrate
diets of the pre-insulin era yielded to the high carbohydrate diets of the
late 1920s and 1930s, and these gave way to the free diets of the 1930s
through to the 1950s. The cycle then resumed with the low carbohydrate diet
of the 1960s, the high carbohydrate/high fibre diet of the 1970s, the free
diets of the latter part of the century and the reincarnation of the
pre-insulin regimen in the form of the Atkins diet.
The enthusiasts have come and gone, each claiming unique virtue and
spectacular success for their own particular regimen, and it would be hard
to imagine a diet that has not at some stage constituted an article of faith
in diabetes management. Almost all these diets worked some of the time, but
we may suspect that few were followed with any degree of rigour for most of
the time.
Early days
It takes a brave physician to treat his own mother. Sarah Proctor Joslin
developed the first symptoms of diabetes in the spring of 1899, and became
Case No. 8 in Elliot Joslin's casebook (his aunt was Case No. 2).His mother's
weight had fallen to 73 kg from its previous maximum of 84 kg (BMI 32
kg/m2), and she was losing around 60 g of glucose per day in her urine.
Joslin eliminated carbohydrate from her diet until the urine became
sugar-free, and then replaced it in stages until glycosuria reappeared. She
consumed some 40-75 g of carbohydrate daily for the remaining 14 years of
her life, and obtained most of her remaining energy requirements from 150 g
of fat.
'Eskimos live upon 52 grams of carbohydrate daily', Joslin noted, and this
'should greatly encourage diabetic patients' [4]. His mother's response has
not been recorded.
Nineteenth century diets for diabetes were just as varied as those of the
twentieth century. The Italian physician Cantani, who had a large and
lucrative private practice, enforced starvation by locking his patients in
their rooms and feeding them on lean meat, fat and dilute alcohol [5].Most
physicians agreed on the importance of calorie restriction in conjunction
with intermittent fasts, and Joslin advised his patients to aim for a weight
10% below the population average for their age and sex.The actual
composition of the diets on offer ranged from the diet followed by William
Banting [6], which anticipated Atkins by more than a century, to high
carbohydrate diets (offered in the context of overall calorie restriction)
such as the milk cure, the von Düring vegetable cure, the Mossé potato cure
and the oatmeal cure favoured by the Viennese physician Carl von Noorden
[2].
High carbohydrate rediscovered Modern recalculation of the diets used by
Joslin and Allen shows that, on average, 70% of calories were derived from
fat, 10% from carbohydrate and 20% from protein [13]. To put this into
context, almost everyone in the world outside the Arctic then ate a very
high carbohydrate diet, and the 'Vogt standard', widely accepted by
nutritionists, considered that a 3,000 calorie diet for a working man should
include 500 g of carbohydrate (66% of calories), 56 g of fat and 118 g of
protein [14]. Fat consumption increases with affluence, and the proportion
of carbohydrate in the American diet fell by 25% over the next 50 years
[15].
By the end of the century a highly diverse food culture was in place, and
the third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III)
(1988-1994) found that the energy derived from dietary carbohydrate was
33.2% for the lowest and 64.3% for the highest quintile of US males, with a
value of 48.5% for the middle quintile.
Low carbohydrate
In 1958 William Daughaday commented on behalf of the American Dietetic
Association that 'uncertainty exists in the minds of many physicians today
concerning the therapeutic role of diet in diabetes'.He proposed that
carbohydrate should provide no more than 40% of total calories, avoided
discussion of free diet, and dismissed the high carbohydrate regimen with
the comment that carbohydrate restriction is an essential feature of the
diabetic diet [28].
High carbohydrate
KellyWest, among others, rediscovered the high carbohydrate diet in the
1960s. He was astonished to discover when writing up his results that 'very
similar experiments had been done by Himsworth, with the same results. Over
and over again this phenomenon has been rediscovered-and subsequently
forgotten or disregarded' [29]. Even those who remained unconvinced as to
the virtue of a high carbohydrate diet were persuaded of the need to reduce
fat, and the new diet was greeted with particular enthusiasm by those who
had rediscovered that a high fat intake might be bad for the heart.Concerns
about 'diet heart' powered many investigations into the virtues of
polyunsaturated fats and fish oils [30], and the new high carbohydrate/low
fat recommendations were formally recognised by the ADA in 1971 [31].
Despair would be premature, for another conclusion has been staring us in
the face all along.
For me this is the most true statement:
======================================================
History teaches that our metabolic pathways are remarkably adept at
converting whatever we eat into whatever we need, and can therefore function
effectively across a wide range of dietary intake.
=======================================================
Sadly for us, our metabolism is less versatile when it comes to chronic
over-nutrition, and we are all over-nourished.No surprise, therefore, that
calorie restriction works well for diabetes in most situations, and that
both its incidence [48] and mortality [49] were dramatically reduced by
enforced diet in wartime.
And this seems an acurate description for asd:
=========================================================
Diet enthusiasts will argue that people like this are in good control
because they follow a diet, but the real answer is that they follow a diet
because that is one of those things that people in good control do.
People with wellcontrolled diabetes do everything well, which is why, to
paraphrase Tolstoy (the novelist, not the physician), all wellcontrolled
patients are alike, whereas each poorly controlled patient is poorly
controlled in his or her own unique way.
To end where we began: which diet is best for diabetes? One that is spare,
sensible and taken with exercise; a diet for which pharmacotherapy is an
adjunct, rather than a substitute. A diet that the patient believes in.
Since dietary advice will be recycled for as long as humans eat more than
they need, there will always be plenty to choose from. For diet is hope's
sister, and we should never say goodbye to either, just au revoir.
=========================================================
hth
Gys
Kurt
> Dears,
> I just found this remarkable article.The macronutrient content of the "ideal
> diet for diabetes" moves around in cycles starting a century ago and
> contains famous and familiar names .... � :) �I included the e-mail adress
> of the author.Most will let you have a copy if you explain why you are
> interested.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19018511?dopt=Citation
Hi Gys,
I snipped the printout but left the link intact. Very interesting
stuff and thanks for posting it. Elliot Joslin's mother I believe was
Type 1 and she, like many other stories I read, seemed almost doomed
to quick death before the discovery of insulin. Every time I am
reminded of how terrible it was for early Type 1's, with diabetes
basically being a death sentence, I feel grateful that insulin is
available to me now whenever I need it.
I particularly liked this paragraph and mainly because it is the
philosophy that I live by so it must be profound and correct! :)
> To end where we began: which diet is best for diabetes? One that is spare,
> sensible and taken with exercise; a diet for which pharmacotherapy is an
> adjunct, rather than a substitute. A diet that the patient believes in.
> Since dietary advice will be recycled for as long as humans eat more than
> they need, there will always be plenty to choose from. For diet is hope's
> sister, and we should never say goodbye to either, just au revoir.
Thanks again for posting the link and article.
Kurt
Ozgirl
>> To end where we began: which diet is best for diabetes? One that is
>> spare, sensible and taken with exercise; a diet for which
>> pharmacotherapy is an adjunct, rather than a substitute. A diet that
>> the patient believes in. Since dietary advice will be recycled for
>> as long as humans eat more than they need, there will always be
>> plenty to choose from. For diet is hope's sister, and we should
>> never say goodbye to either, just au revoir.
>
> Thanks again for posting the link and article.
>
> Kurt
You should use that as a sig line. Bigger than most but not as big as
some...
Trinkwasser
wrote:
>It takes a brave physician to treat his own mother. Sarah Proctor Joslin
>developed the first symptoms of diabetes in the spring of 1899, and became
>Case No. 8 in Elliot Joslin's casebook (his aunt was Case No. 2).His mother's
>weight had fallen to 73 kg from its previous maximum of 84 kg (BMI 32
>kg/m2), and she was losing around 60 g of glucose per day in her urine.
>Joslin eliminated carbohydrate from her diet until the urine became
>sugar-free, and then replaced it in stages until glycosuria reappeared. She
>consumed some 40-75 g of carbohydrate daily for the remaining 14 years of
>her life, and obtained most of her remaining energy requirements from 150 g
>of fat.
>
>
>
>'Eskimos live upon 52 grams of carbohydrate daily', Joslin noted, and this
>'should greatly encourage diabetic patients' [4]. His mother's response has
>not been recorded.
Joslin would be turning in his grave if he could see what just
happened to Priscilla
GysdeJongh
news:7vldj4l6641h2l452...@4ax.com...
who is Priscilla, what happened to her and why would Joslin be turning in
his grave ????
Cluless but curious ....
Sorry Trink
Gys
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diabetes/msg/092d6d76495d73c4?
The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
eaten has made him/her hungrier.
The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
Truth is simple.
Therefore, in remains much wiser to eat less, down to the right
amount:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
May you and other dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a
blessedly wonderful 2008th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus
Christ as our Messiah, the Son of Man ...
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
Hunger is wonderful ! ! !
It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus
want?" (WDJW):
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f43db72a7c5c1da0?
Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve
paid for with their and our immortal lives:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...
... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)
Amen.
Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of
promoting much greater understanding:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <><
--
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/43acbc5ea248ceee?
Cary Kittrell
> GysdeJongh wrote:
> >
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diabetes/msg/092d6d76495d73c4?
>
> The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
> a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
> was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
> eaten has made him/her hungrier.
>
> The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
Starting when? Age ten? Five? Six months? At birth?
-- cary
marcia
wrote:
> GysdeJongh wrote:
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diabetes/msg/092d6d76495d7...
>
> The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
> a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
> was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
> eaten has made him/her hungrier.
>
> The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
Is that in the Bible? Where?
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > GysdeJongh wrote:
> >
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diabetes/msg/092d6d76495d7...
> >
> > The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
> > a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
> > was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
> > eaten has made him/her hungrier.
> >
> > The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
>
> Is that in the Bible?
Yes.
> Where?
Exodus 16:36 as per the Holy Spirit:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/40f387f2e7c73b1b?
May you and other dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a
blessedly wonderful 2008th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus
Christ as our Messiah, the Son of Man ...
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
Hunger is wonderful ! ! !
It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus
want?" (WDJW):
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f43db72a7c5c1da0?
Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve
paid for with their and our immortal lives:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...
... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)
Amen.
Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of
promoting much greater understanding:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <><
--
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
Alan S
<kurtwhee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> a diet for which pharmacotherapy is an adjunct, rather than a substitute.
One wonders if anyone in the ADA could reconcile the above
with this:
http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp
"Yes, foods with carbohydrate -- starches, vegetables,
fruits, and dairy products -- will raise your blood glucose
more quickly than meats and fats, but they are the
healthiest foods for you. Your doctor may need to adjust
your medications when you eat more carbohydrates."
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
d&e, metformin 2000 mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com (The Diabetes Diet Wars)
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (Two Indian Hotels: to Sleep, Perchance...)
Alan S
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diabetes/msg/092d6d76495d73c4?
> >
> > The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
> > a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
> > was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
> > eaten has made him/her hungrier.
> >
> > The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
>
> Starting when? Age ten? Five? Six months? At birth?
Parents, who are eating the right amount of food per day, would know
when.
Truth is simple :-)
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His compelling
you to unwittingly update folks on your continued inability to
publicly proclaim that "Jesus is LORD."
Bottom line concerning the predicament of you and other non-
christians:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
<><
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
Peter C
> On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:35:05 -0800 (PST), Kurt
>
> > a diet for which pharmacotherapy is an adjunct, rather than a substitute.
>
> One wonders if anyone in the ADA could reconcile the above
> with this:http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp
> "Yes, foods with carbohydrate -- starches, vegetables,
> fruits, and dairy products -- will raise your blood glucose
> more quickly than meats and fats, but they are the
> healthiest foods for you. Your doctor may need to adjust
> your medications when you eat more carbohydrates."
>
The two statements appear to be perfectly compatible.
ADA are advising you to adjust your meds to suit your diet not to
adjust your diet to suit your meds. Which suggests they are clearly
seeing pharmacotherapy as an "adjunct" and not the object of the game.
Andy is Still Evil
@thetruth.com> wrote in news:984cb765-18e3-4d9f-9f1c-0e250dd62089@
20g2000yqt.googlegroups.com:
> GysdeJongh wrote:
>>
>>
>>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diabetes/msg/092d6d76495d73c4?
>
> The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
> a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
> was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
> eaten has made him/her hungrier.
>
> The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
LIE.
The 32 ounces was by Andy's design. He attempted to shoehorn a scriptural
account of the use of 2 omers in support of his claim. Andy's use of the
omer was incorrect since it was a measure of volume rather than weight.
This has been pointed out to him many times. When Andy deliberately
repeats this wrong statement even when he is aware of the correct usage
his statement becomes a lie.
>
> Truth is simple.
>
Andy is so sensitive to truth that he leaves the room before it has a
chance to enter. If you look in the archives of sci.med.cardiology you'll
see that Andy came up with his 2 pound diet (as he named it then). Only
after many postings was he persuaded to add "with a balanced diet" as a
caveat. To this day other posters continue to show that factors such as
age and exercise need to be taken into account, seemingly to no avail with
stuck Andy.
If you follow the links below, you can see a pattern where Andy has
himself been digging his own professional grave over many years. This
post simply serves to put warning lights around the hole.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/5a8f36628c734909
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/fcc64b7a7b861413
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/6847393fd66086ff
Until Andy is able to change his behaviour it will remain that Andy is
Still Evil.
Cary Kittrell
> convicted neighbor Cary Kittrell wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > GysdeJongh wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diabetes/msg/092d6d76495d73c4?
> > >
> > > The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
> > > a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
> > > was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
> > > eaten has made him/her hungrier.
> > >
> > > The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
> >
> > Starting when? Age ten? Five? Six months? At birth?
>
> Parents, who are eating the right amount of food per day, would know
> when.
And on average -- in your "collective clinical experience", of
course -- that age would be?...
-- cary
Peppermint Patootie
Trinkwasser <sp...@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:
Oh, man! This is so ironic! I should send some of this info on Joslin
to my Joslin Clinic idiot endo when I finally fire her. I'm just
waiting to hear when my PCP is permitted to prescribe Byetta (health
Center rules).
I think we might be able to harness Joslin's spinning to solve the
energy crisis.
Priscilla
Peppermint Patootie
Alan S <loralgtwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:37:12 +0100, "GysdeJongh"
> <jong...@planet.nl> wrote:
>
> >"Trinkwasser" <sp...@devnull.com.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:7vldj4l6641h2l452...@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 01:46:46 +0100, "GysdeJongh" <jong...@planet.nl>
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Joslin would be turning in his grave if he could see what just
> >> happened to Priscilla
> >
> >who is Priscilla, what happened to her and why would Joslin be turning in
> >his grave ????
> >
> >Cluless but curious ....
> >Sorry Trink
> >Gys
> >
>
> Start here:
>
> Peppermint_Patootie-...@individual.net
How does one access it using an address like that? I put it in a
browser and just got the individual.net page.
PP
GysdeJongh
news:b54fj4lg0e68sh5an...@4ax.com...
> Start here:
> Peppermint_Patootie-...@individual.net
Hi Alan,
found it back, very kind of you :)
I got a lot of neuropathy.It does something with my nerves.Brain =
nerves.One of my greatest fears is that the neuropathy is going to influence
my brain too.I hope I'm wrong.For me it's very irritating that I keep
forgetting things.Also things for which I'm sure that they must be somewhere
like the name of the actor who played of James Bond as I've seen them
all....
Thx again
Gys
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> convicted neighbor Cary Kittrell wrote:
>> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> > > GysdeJongh wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diabetes/msg/092d6d76495d73c4?
>> > >
>> > > The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
>> > > a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
>> > > was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
>> > > eaten has made him/her hungrier.
>> > >
>> > > The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
>> >
>> > Starting when? Age ten? Five? Six months? At birth?
>>
>> Parents, who are eating the right amount of food per day, would know
>> when.
>
>And on average -- in your "collective clinical experience", of
>course -- that age would be?...
When the children start eating more than 32 ounces per day on their
own.
Truth is simple.
And, the truth shows that you, Cary Kittrell, are a fool.
"Cary Kittrell is a fool." -- Holy Spirit
Amen.
Such is the condition of all those who are unable to publicly say
"Jesus is LORD."
Bottom line concerning the predicament of you and other non-christians
like you:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/BottomLine
May we, who are Christians (either Jew or gentile), continue to pray
for your perishing soul, dear Cary:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/Convicts/PrayForCary
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <><
--
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
GysdeJongh
> <jong...@planet.nl> wrote:
> Start here:
btw forgot to ask : how is your bike "project" going ? Is one hand- or no
hands steering already possible again ?
If you like the idea than drop me a line when you are in the neighborhood.We
could go for a ride along the dikes and mills :)
Seen this :
Gys
Cary Kittrell
> convicted neighbor Cary Kittrell wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> >> convicted neighbor Cary Kittrell wrote:
> >> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> >> > > GysdeJongh wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diabetes/msg/092d6d76495d73c4?
> >> > >
> >> > > The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
> >> > > a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
> >> > > was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
> >> > > eaten has made him/her hungrier.
> >> > >
> >> > > The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
> >> >
> >> > Starting when? Age ten? Five? Six months? At birth?
> >>
> >> Parents, who are eating the right amount of food per day, would know
> >> when.
> >
> >And on average -- in your "collective clinical experience", of
> >course -- that age would be?...
>
> When the children start eating more than 32 ounces per day on their
> own.
And on average -- in your "collective clinical experience", of
course -- that age would be?...
-- cary
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > convicted neighbor Cary Kittrell wrote:
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > >> convicted neighbor Cary Kittrell wrote:
> > >> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > >> > > GysdeJongh wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diabetes/msg/092d6d76495d73c4?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
> > >> > > a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
> > >> > > was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
> > >> > > eaten has made him/her hungrier.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
> > >> >
> > >> > Starting when? Age ten? Five? Six months? At birth?
> > >>
> > >> Parents, who are eating the right amount of food per day, would know
> > >> when.
> > >
> > >And on average -- in your "collective clinical experience", of
> > >course -- that age would be?...
> >
> > When the children start eating more than 32 ounces per day on their
> > own.
>
> And on average -- in your "collective clinical experience", of
> course -- that age would be?...
12 years for females and 13 years for males.
Truth is simple :-)
<><
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
Cary Kittrell
OK, filed for future reference.
--cary
kurtwhee...@hotmail.com
>>substitute.
>
>> One wonders if anyone in the ADA could reconcile the above
>> with this:http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp
> >"Yes, foods with carbohydrate -- starches, vegetables,
> >fruits, and dairy products -- will raise your blood glucose
>> more quickly than meats and fats, but they are the
> >healthiest foods for you. Your doctor may need to adjust
>> your medications when you eat more carbohydrates."
>
>The two statements appear to be perfectly compatible.
>ADA are advising you to adjust your meds to suit your diet not to
>adjust your diet to suit your meds. Which suggests they are clearly
>seeing pharmacotherapy as an "adjunct" and not the object of the game.
Exactly. It's just ADA bashing time again, tagged on to a fragment of
what I quoted from Gys's great post.
Also, this is a general advisory and meant for both *TYPE 1's* and
Type 2's. It says that your doctor "may" need to adjust, not that
there would have to be an adjustment...important distinction there.
No one diet fits all and the ADA makes it clear that people with
diabetes should work with a healthcare professional to determine what
is best for their *individual* needs. The only thing I would add to
their above referenced recommendation is this: "Your doctor may need
to adjust your medications when you eat more carbohydrates...*or if
you increase your exercise and activity level." The adjustment then
would be down and not up.
Kurt
marcia
> False Christian and sociopath "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <love27
> @thetruth.com> wrote in news:984cb765-18e3-4d9f-9f1c-0e250dd62089@
> 20g2000yqt.googlegroups.com:
>
> > GysdeJongh wrote:
>
>
> > The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
> > a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
> > was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
> > eaten has made him/her hungrier.
>
> > The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
>
> LIE.
> The 32 ounces was by Andy's design. He attempted to shoehorn a scriptural
> account of the use of 2 omers in support of his claim. Andy's use of the
> omer was incorrect since it was a measure of volume rather than weight.
> This has been pointed out to him many times. When Andy deliberately
> repeats this wrong statement even when he is aware of the correct usage
> his statement becomes a lie.
>
> > Truth is simple.
>
> Andy is so sensitive to truth that he leaves the room before it has a
> chance to enter. If you look in the archives of sci.med.cardiology you'll
> see that Andy came up with his 2 pound diet (as he named it then). Only
> after many postings was he persuaded to add "with a balanced diet" as a
> caveat. To this day other posters continue to show that factors such as
> age and exercise need to be taken into account, seemingly to no avail with
> stuck Andy.
>
> If you follow the links below, you can see a pattern where Andy has
> himself been digging his own professional grave over many years. This
>
> Until Andy is able to change his behaviour it will remain that Andy is
> Still Evil.
Agree. It's impossible to convert omers to dry ounces. However, if you
drink all your meals, 2 Israeli omer = 2.09456493506494 gallon
(volume). So an omer is approximately 1 gallon, which is 128 fluid
ounces.
Now, if you try to convert fluid ounces to pounds, you get the
following:
fluid ounce (volume) TO pound (mass) = 6.5198472281401E-05 meter^3 /
kilogram (specific volume)
I can't do the math, can you?
anon...@nowhere.you.know
a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
eaten has made him/her hungrier."
A good clinition would never give such unfounded advice. What a
diabetic eats is most important based on its content as to its effect on
blood glucose levels and nutritional value, nothing more.
This borders if not goes over the line of professional irresponsibility.
"The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design."
32 oz.s of candy bars would be tasty as above and leave one soon hungry.
This borders if not goes over the line of professional irresponsibility.
Truth is simple."
Nicky
<Peppermin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I think we might be able to harness Joslin's spinning to solve the
>energy crisis.
LOL! There's green energy for you : )
Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.4% BMI 25
Syd M.
> In article <984cb765-18e3-4d9f-9f1c-0e250dd62...@20g2000yqt.googlegroups.com> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> writes:
>
> > GysdeJongh wrote:
>
>
> > The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
> > a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
> > was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
> > eaten has made him/her hungrier.
>
> > The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
>
> Starting when? Age ten? Five? Six months? At birth?
>
C'mon, Cary... You know better then to ask a serious question of
Chung.
PDW
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Sadly, the entire archived Google newsgroups file will not help you
publicly say "Jesus is LORD."
Bottom line concerning your difficulties:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/43acbc5ea248ceee?
<><
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
Alan S
The ADA are clearly advising to eat carbs without regard to
their BG affects and to compensate for any BG probelms with
medication.
They clearly see pharmacotherapy as a substitute, not as an
adjunct.
http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk
substitute
noun someone or something that takes the place of, or is
used instead of, another.
adjunct
noun 1 something attached or added to something else but not
an essential part of it.
Alan S
In Agent I put that into a draft new message or reply and
click on it. I am automatically then sent to the referenced
message.
There may be a better technique, but that works for me.
Try something similar in your Newswatcher newsreader.
Alan S
<jong...@planet.nl> wrote:
>"Alan S" <loralgtwei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:b54fj4lg0e68sh5an...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:37:12 +0100, "GysdeJongh"
>> <jong...@planet.nl> wrote:
>
>> Start here:
>
>btw forgot to ask : how is your bike "project" going ? Is one hand- or no
>hands steering already possible again ?
>
Haven't got to that stage yet, but I am past the "wobbles".
Last ride was about 11km; not far I know, but getting there.
My limitations are cramp but that should ease with more use
of those unused bike muscles.
Finding a comfortable seat position is becoming a difficulty
on longer rides. The seat is an excellent "comfort" type,
but I think I need to adjust the angle.
>If you like the idea than drop me a line when you are in the neighborhood.We
>could go for a ride along the dikes and mills :)
>
It's the section between Coolangatta and Amsterdam that is
the small difficulty...it's a bike, not a pedalo.
>Seen this :
>
>http://www.oziexplorer.com/
On the distances I am doing I doubt I'll need a GPS to find
my way home:-)
Michelle C
"Peppermint Patootie" <Peppermin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Peppermint_Patootie-...@individual.net...
Priscilla, if you've got the time to wade through Taubes' book Good Calories
Bad Calories, he goes into the diabetic diet history in detail. Very
interesting. And enough to make you want to pull your hair out with the
stupid crap Joslin and the ADA are spouting today. Although I've been
committed to low carb for some time, reading the book gave me additional
reasons to deem it beneficial--and not just for diabetics.
--
Best regards,
Michelle C., T2
diet & exercise
BMI 21.5
Peter C
> On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 03:13:43 -0800 (PST), Peter C
> >> with this:http://www.diabetes.org/nutrition-and-recipes/nutrition/starches.jsp
> >> "Yes, foods with carbohydrate -- starches, vegetables,
> >> fruits, and dairy products -- will raise your blood glucose
> >> more quickly than meats and fats, but they are the
> >> healthiest foods for you. Your doctor may need to adjust
> >> your medications when you eat more carbohydrates."
>
>
> their BG affects and to compensate for any BG probelms with
> medication.
The two halves of that statement are clearly incompatible. If they
were paying no regard to bg effects they wouldn't advise adjusting
meds as appropriate.
>
> They clearly see pharmacotherapy as a substitute, not as an
> adjunct.
NO. They give primacy to the diet ( good or ill) and clearly see
pharmocotherapy in a supporting or adjunctive role.
What ADA are advising is exactly what you did with your metformin. 500
mg wasn't having much effect, you kept the diet the same but upped
the met.
Peppermint Patootie
"Michelle C" <bookb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Maybe I should read it. I've certainly seen enough good stuff here
about it. Come to think of it, I may already own a copy! It's probably
holding up the corner of a bookcase, if I remember it's mass correctly.
I'm trying to climb back on the LC bandwagon after losing ground by
listening to my idiot endo and giving in to cravings. I could use a
morale boost.
PP
Cary Kittrell
The nominations for Non-Sequitur of the Week, Open Division, closed
yesterday at midnight. Hope you didn't invest too much time in creating
that one (although I do admit I'm forced to admire its masterful orthonality;
good job!)
-- cary
Peppermint Patootie
Peppermint Patootie <Peppermin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Maybe I should read it. I've certainly seen enough good stuff here
> about it. Come to think of it, I may already own a copy! It's probably
> holding up the corner of a bookcase, if I remember it's mass correctly.
ITS ITS
*sigh*
PP
Alan S
<Peppermin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Maybe I should read it. I've certainly seen enough good stuff here
>about it. Come to think of it, I may already own a copy! It's probably
>holding up the corner of a bookcase, if I remember it's mass correctly.
More likely a corner of your house :-)
>I'm trying to climb back on the LC bandwagon after losing ground by
>listening to my idiot endo and giving in to cravings. I could use a
>morale boost.
>
>PP
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His compelling
you to again update folks on your continued inability to publicly say
"Jesus is LORD."
Bottom line concerning the predicament of you and other non-christians
like you:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
<><
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
Cary Kittrell
Did so. You failed to "discrern" the fact. And that is the "bottom
line" on you.
-- cary
Michelle C
It certainly gave me extra incentive.
Tiger_Lily
> In article <958f2d94-6413-4cde...@t3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> writes:
>> convicted neighbor Cary Kittrell wrote:
>>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>>>> GysdeJongh wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.diabetes/msg/092d6d76495d73c4?
>>>> The right diet varies from person to person and consists of foods that
>>>> a person enjoys, which becomes evident when a person exclaims "that
>>>> was delicious ! I wants more ! ! " thereby indicating what s/he has
>>>> eaten has made him/her hungrier.
>>>>
>>>> The right amount remains invariant at 32 ounces by GOD's design.
>>> Starting when? Age ten? Five? Six months? At birth?
>> Parents, who are eating the right amount of food per day, would know
>> when.
>
> And on average -- in your "collective clinical experience", of
> course -- that age would be?...
>
>
>
>
>> Truth is simple :-)
>>
>> Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His compelling
>> publicly proclaim that "Jesus is LORD."
>>
>> Bottom line concerning the predicament of you and other non-
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
>>
>> <><
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
>
>
amazing
a feeding every 1 to 2 hours of 1 to 4oz of breastmilk for a baby
i guess we should limit a babies access to breastmilk to much less than
48 oz a day, then?
my Dr would have been very interested in THIS interpretation
--
kate
type 1 since 1987
www.diabetic-chat.org
www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.diabetes-support.org.uk/newly%20diagnosed.html
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> >>
> >> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
> >
> >
> amazing
>
> a feeding every 1 to 2 hours of 1 to 4oz of breastmilk for a baby
That would be possibly a range of 12 (1 oz per 2 hrs) to 96 oz (4 oz
every hr) of breastmilk for a baby.
> i guess we should limit a babies access to breastmilk to much less than
> 48 oz a day, then?
Wiser to simply feed the baby directly from the breast and not express
for purposes of weighing the breast milk.
Truth is simple.
<><
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/e7b39fa84dd3f593?
Robert Miles
"marcia" <marcia...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:de7cd5a1-6fef-4996...@x14g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
I'm not sure I want to. I'd rather just tell Andy to adopt a WOE (way of
eating) of two pounds of salt a day.