A Message for Gehrig and Ostrov
Debunks
ISRAELI SCHOOL REGRETS BURNING NEW TESTAMENT
JERUSALEM, Dec 26, 01 (CWNews.com) - A Jewish school on Tuesday expressed
regret for holding a public burning of a copy of the New Testament, saying the
event was a demonstration for students against Christian proselytizing efforts.
A spokeswoman for Orot, a public school in the Israeli town of Beit Shemesh
near Jerusalem, said a teacher held the outdoor book-burning for his
sixth-grade class in early December, destroying a Bible a missionary gave to a
pupil. "We regret that this incident occurred," spokesman Jordana Klein said.
"The intentions were not to criticize Christianity, but only to tell these
Jewish boys that they don't have to listen to the missionaries." Klein said
Orot pupils were regularly targeted by "aggressive" Christian missionaries
living in the Jewish state.
The principal of the school had been summoned by Israel's Education Ministry
for a disciplinary hearing. "This is a grave matter and the ministry condemns
book-burning of any kind," a spokesman said. The school later said that if a
child comes to school with a Bible given to him by missionaries, officials will
tell him to take it home so his parents can decide what to do with it.
Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel.
END
A criminal offense in Israel? Now, where have we heard that before? Still
care to deny it, Gehrig? Of course you do....I have a feeling their only
"regret" was being caught...Most likely incidents like this are a common
occurrence in "democratic" Israel...
Hilary Ostrov
<20011228212205...@mb-fz.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) gave us some old news when he wrote:
>ISRAELI SCHOOL REGRETS BURNING NEW TESTAMENT
>JERUSALEM, Dec 26, 01 (CWNews.com) - A Jewish school on Tuesday expressed
>regret for holding a public burning of a copy of the New Testament, saying the
>event was a demonstration for students against Christian proselytizing efforts.
>
>A spokeswoman for Orot, a public school in the Israeli town of Beit Shemesh
>near Jerusalem, said a teacher held the outdoor book-burning for his
>sixth-grade class in early December, destroying a Bible a missionary gave to a
>pupil. "We regret that this incident occurred," spokesman Jordana Klein said.
>"The intentions were not to criticize Christianity, but only to tell these
>Jewish boys that they don't have to listen to the missionaries." Klein said
>Orot pupils were regularly targeted by "aggressive" Christian missionaries
>living in the Jewish state.
>
>The principal of the school had been summoned by Israel's Education Ministry
>for a disciplinary hearing. "This is a grave matter and the ministry condemns
>book-burning of any kind," a spokesman said. The school later said that if a
>child comes to school with a Bible given to him by missionaries, officials will
>tell him to take it home so his parents can decide what to do with it.
>
>Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel.
>
>END
>
>A criminal offense in Israel? Now, where have we heard that before?
From you, of course. And you are just as wrong now as you were then.
So is the last paragraph of the article - or at least what purports to
be the last paragraph. You haven't provided an URL, and I'm not about
to take out a subscription to CWN in order to check its archives for
your supposed source.
Of course, if proselytization of children was a "criminal offense" one
would expect that rather than apologizing for the incident - and
summoning the principal for a disciplinary hearing - someone would
have alerted the appropriate authorities so that the perpetrator could
be apprehended and dealt with accordingly.
But don't let logic stand in the way of your willingness to smear
Jews, Judaism and/or the State of Israel.
>Still
>care to deny it, Gehrig? Of course you do....I have a feeling their only
>"regret" was being caught...
No. Just because your only regrets for your behaviour here are when
you get "caught" (in your case telling lies), doesn't mean that others
conduct themselves in the same amoral fashion.
>Most likely incidents like this are a common
>occurrence in "democratic" Israel...
No. Most likely Bellinger is talking through his Jew-hating hat -
again.
hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hos...@telus.net
WWW: http://www3.telus.net/myssiwyg/
The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/
Yosarian
I woudl think that the Catholic World Report would not be the best
source.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=110226&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
|
|
The major difference between a thing that might go
wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is
that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes
wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at
or repair
Douglas Adams
Tavish
applies:
<<<In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed
a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit
research and educational purposes only. - FAIR USE INTENDED>>>
Oh contraire Hilary! The following material proves "Proselytizing children is a
criminal offense in Israel"!
>So is the last paragraph of the article - or at least what purports to
>be the last paragraph. You haven't provided an URL, and I'm not about
>to take out a subscription to CWN in order to check its archives for
>your supposed source.
Here is the URL:
http://www.cwnews.com/news/getstory_test.cfm?recnum=17110&auth=subscriber
and DEBUNKS quoted the story exactly for the article does say at the end:
"Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel."
How about these articles concerning anti-Christic bigotry and activism in
Israel?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessianicMessages/message/89
Message 89 of 135
From: "Marty Cohen" <MartyCohen@Q...>
Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 1:53 pm
Subject: Update from Israel
Shalom chaverim.
Here is an item that is causing some major concern among the Body here:
ANTI-MISSIONARY BILL RE-EMERGES
In this time of great political instability and desperation in Israel, it is
not surprising that the ultra-orthodox should grasp the opportunity to make
a fourth-round attempt at getting their Anti-Missionary legislation adopted.
(Israel already has legislation that prohibits soliciting to change religion .)
On 21 January, MK Rabbi Moshe Gafni (who introduced the original
Anti-Missionary Bill in January 1997) proposed this amendment to the Penal
Code: The distributor of a document by means of the mail, the fax, the
electronic mail or by any other means, that is, enticement to change
religion, whether directly or indirectly, without obtaining the prior
consent of the addressee thereto, is subject to three months imprisonment.
Thus any mail containing evangelistic material without the prior consent
of the recipient, would be illegal and a penal offence. ...
<end>
http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi/archives5760/kisisa/KSSalevlchm.htm
News
Lev L'achim's Fight Against Missionaries in Israel
by Moshe Schapiro
[...]
Two years ago, during Netanyahu's administration, missionary activities reached
such a fevered pitch that a special Knesset committee was convened to draw up
legislation that would outlaw "preaching with the intent to cause another person
to change his religion."
Netanyahu came under tremendous international pressure to vote against the bill.
The legislation was never passed.
However, all is not bleak. One organization in Eretz Yisroel, Lev L'achim, is
mustering its forces and finding equally ingenuous ways to counter the tactics
of these groups. Working in conjunction with The Committee for Rescue of
Immigrant Children in Israel, an organization based in England, Lev L'Achim runs
a wide range of anti-missionary activities nationwide.
[...]
It hasn't been easy, but Lev L'achim has managed to assemble and train a small
group of yeshiva students willing to go undercover and infiltrate the missionary
groups operating in Eretz Yisroel. Two to three volunteers are sent to each
community. The boys become friends with the group's members. Once they are an
accepted part of the group, they begin to monitor the group's activities.
One simple but effective tactic the volunteers employ is to rifle through the
mail. If they see a letter from someone new to the group, they return the
letter. If the group receives a shipment of messianic literature from abroad,
they return the shipment. If they hear that the group is going to stuff their
literature in a particular neighborhood's mailboxes, the volunteers contact Lev
L'achim. When the missionaries get to the neighborhood, they are greeted by a
group of kollel men, and the mail doesn't get delivered.
[...]
Lev L'achim is also in the forefront of stopping missionary activity hiding
under the guise of art. When the play "David and Batsheva" opened in Israel, the
organization discovered that funding for the production came from missionaries.
Lev L'achim organized demonstrations in front of the theater, at a cost of 5,000
NIS per demonstration, and the play, which had a messianic message, was forced
to cancel its scheduled tour.
Another tactic Lev L'achim uses is to bring a minor to one of the group's
activities. Although it is not illegal to try to get an adult to convert to
another religion, under Israeli law it is illegal to seek to influence a minor.
And so one messianic group may be closed down.
<end>
http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi/archives5760/vayetze/amission.htm
News
Police Not Protecting New Immigrants' from Missionaries
by Yated Ne'eman Staff
Charges that hundreds of Christian missionaries are exploiting the difficult
social and economic situation of new immigrants, and that the police are not
doing enough to protect them, were voiced by Adi Eldar, chairman of the Union of
Local Authorities.
Eldar made his charges in a letter to Internal Security Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami.
A spokesman for Ben-Ami said that the minister has not yet had time to consider
the issue.
Eldar told Yated that the social welfare departments of many local authorities
have forwarded complaints to the Union of Local Authorities about extensive
missionary activity among new arrivals. This activity often has a terribly
destructive effect on family life...
"Police must use every means available to prevent open missionary activity in
small towns," he said, stressing that this was not just a religious problem, but
a social and cultural threat as well...
At a recent meeting of the Knesset Interior Committee on missionary activity in
Israel, a representative of the police said that the U.S. administration has
been keeping a close eye on anti-missionary activity in Israel, and this has
severely hindered police from dealing with the problem in an effective manner.
The police representative also pointed out that the law forbids missionaries
from granting benefits to those they seek to convert and it also forbids
converting of a minor or pressuring a minor to convert.
<end>
Can everyone see the Pharisees have not changed for 2000 years?
>Of course, if proselytization of children was a "criminal offense" one
>would expect that rather than apologizing for the incident - and
>summoning the principal for a disciplinary hearing - someone would
>have alerted the appropriate authorities so that the perpetrator could
>be apprehended and dealt with accordingly.
>
>But don't let logic stand in the way of your willingness to smear
>Jews, Judaism and/or the State of Israel.
The facts speak for themselves and once again you're either in the dark or a
willing servile helot of the "anti-Christs." Take your pick!
>>Still care to deny it, Gehrig? Of course you do....I have a feeling their only
>>"regret" was being caught...
:
>No. Just because your only regrets for your behaviour here are when
>you get "caught" (in your case telling lies), doesn't mean that others
>conduct themselves in the same amoral fashion.
How did DEBUNKS lie? He told the truth and you are in denial as all the Gentile
dupes of the original anti-Christs are.
>>Most likely incidents like this are a common
>>occurrence in "democratic" Israel...
:
>No. Most likely Bellinger is talking through his Jew-hating hat -
>again.
He told the truth whereas you are attempting damage control for your masters.
Have you spent your thirty pieces of silver?
>hro
>=====================
>Hilary Ostrov
More to come. Stay tuned!
Doc Tavish
--
"For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries
will be able to withstand or contradict." Son of Man {Luke 21:15 RSV}
Philip Mathews
news:gdaq2u4k357j6oges...@4ax.com...
http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/display/inn_news/JTA/vschool1228.txt
JERUSALEM, Dec. 27 (JTA) -- Israeli officials have condemned a religious
school for holding a public burning of the Christian Bible earlier this
month.
Israel's deputy foreign minister, Michael Melchior, called the act a
desecration of God's name. He said in a statement this week that such acts
could ``harm our relationship with the Christian world."
``The Jewish people cannot and will not accept the burning of books holy to
others," Melchior said. ``We cannot do unto others what has been done to the
Jews for generations."
The Orot school, located in Beit Shemesh, has apologized for burning the
book, which apparently was given to a student by Christian missionaries.
``The intentions were not to criticize Christianity, but only to tell these
Jewish boys they don't have to listen to the missionaries,'' said Jordana
Klein, a spokeswoman for the school.
Israel's Education Ministry said it had summoned the school's principal,
Rabbi Yair Bachar, for a disciplinary hearing.
The education ministry opened the inquiry after the story broke in the
Jerusalem Post this week. According to the report, the incident took place
in the school yard the week before Chanukah.
A teacher found out that a sixth-grade student had brought to school a
Hebrew copy of the New Testament that his family had received from
missionaries. The teacher consulted with the school principal, who
reportedly gave his approval for the burning.
After receiving calls from angry parents -- and after consulting with a
rabbinic authority -- Bachar apparently decided that he had made the wrong
move.
Rabbi David Spector, in Beit Shemesh, ruled that the material should be
burned -- but only by the owner and in private.
Bachar reportedly has asked Spector to rule on religious matters for the
school in the future.
In a separate development, a Knesset committee defeated a bill proposed by
religious parties making it illegal to proselytize via mail or fax machines.
Israel's Justice Minister and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel had
objected to the law, arguing that it violates freedom of religion and
freedom of speech. JTA END
---------
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/nea/index.cfm?docid=794
Israel (for information on occupied territories, see occupied territories
report)
Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2000
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
February 23, 2001
Missionaries are allowed to proselytize, although the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-Day Saints voluntarily refrains from doing so under an agreement
with the Government. A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from
offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to conversion;
however, there have been no reports of its enforcement. On December 6, a
law prohibiting some missionary activity and the dissemination of some
missionary material passed a first reading in the Knesset.
--
Philip Mathews
Debunks
>From: Hilary Ostrov hos...@telus.net
>Date: 12/28/01 6:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <gdaq2u4k357j6oges...@4ax.com>
Really? The report is a lie, Ms Ostrov? Is that what you are saying? I know!
It is a falsehood fabricated out of thin air by mysterious "antisemites"-by
people as mysterious as the "Elders of Zion," right?
>So is the last paragraph of the article - or at least what purports to
>be the last paragraph. You haven't provided an URL, and I'm not about
>to take out a subscription to CWN in order to check its archives for
>your supposed source.
I believe Mr. Bradbury has posted enough URL's to satisfy the most enduring
skeptics. Of course I quite understand your objection to any Christian source
as being credible, but I believe Mr. Bradbury has posted the same story from an
Israeli source....
>nd I'm not about
>to take out a subscription to CWN in order to check its archives for
>your supposed source.
No? You are a ubiquitous snoop and you won't take 5 seconds out to follow a
simple link, as provided by Mr. Bradbury? Why not?
>
>Of course, if proselytization of children was a "criminal offense" one
>would expect that rather than apologizing for the incident
It IS a criminal offence in Israel - your personal expectations
notwithstanding.
> and
>summoning the principal for a disciplinary hearing -
"If you do this again, don't get caught."
>someone would
>have alerted the appropriate authorities so that the perpetrator could
>be apprehended and dealt with accordingly.
>
Wonder who alerted them?
>But don't let logic stand in the way of your willingness to smear
>Jews, Judaism and/or the State of Israel.
>
LOL! It is not a smear. It is the truth.
>
>>Still
>>care to deny it, Gehrig? Of course you do....I have a feeling their only
>>"regret" was being caught...
>No. Just because your only regrets for your behaviour here are when
>you get "caught" (in your case telling lies),
Unlike you, Ms Ostrov, I do not tell lies.
> doesn't mean that others
>conduct themselves in the same amoral fashion.
We can see how they conduct themselves in Israel, Ms Ostrov. The whole world
sees it.
>>Most likely incidents like this are a common
>>occurrence in "democratic" Israel...
>
>No. Most likely Bellinger is talking through his Jew-hating hat -
>again.
>
>hro
And so she ends with a smear. How typical.
Debunks
>offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to conversion;
>however, there have been no reports of its enforcement. On December 6, a
>law prohibiting some missionary activity and the dissemination of some
>missionary material passed a first reading in the Knesset.
>
>--
>Philip Mathews
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
How interesting! So I was right all along, and Gehrig stands self-convicted as
a liar, once again.
Debunks
>Date: 12/28/01 8:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <ufhq2us49ucopg12p...@4ax.com>
Of course you think that, Christ-hater..
Hilary Ostrov
<4hlq2us9b34sq98k7...@4ax.com>, Tavish
<t-a--v-i...@i-x.n-e-t-co--m.co--mRemoveHyphens2Mail> wrote:
[...]
>On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 02:49:06 GMT, <gdaq2u4k357j6oges...@4ax.com>
>Hilary Ostrov <hos...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>>On 29 Dec 2001 02:22:05 GMT, in
>><20011228212205...@mb-fz.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
>>(Debunks) gave us some old news when he wrote:
>>
>>>ISRAELI SCHOOL REGRETS BURNING NEW TESTAMENT
>>>JERUSALEM, Dec 26, 01 (CWNews.com) - A Jewish school on Tuesday expressed
>>>regret for holding a public burning of a copy of the New Testament, saying the
>>>event was a demonstration for students against Christian proselytizing efforts.
[...]
>>>Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel.
>>>
>>>END
>>>
>>>A criminal offense in Israel? Now, where have we heard that before?
>:
>>From you, of course. And you are just as wrong now as you were then.
>
>Oh contraire Hilary! The following material proves "Proselytizing children is a
>criminal offense in Israel"!
>
>>So is the last paragraph of the article - or at least what purports to
>>be the last paragraph. You haven't provided an URL, and I'm not about
>>to take out a subscription to CWN in order to check its archives for
>>your supposed source.
>
>Here is the URL:
>http://www.cwnews.com/news/getstory_test.cfm?recnum=17110&auth=subscriber
>and DEBUNKS quoted the story exactly for the article does say at the end:
>"Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel."
Thanks for the URL. But all it "proves" is that the writer of the
article got it wrong - just as Bellinger did.
As Philip Mathews noted in the original thread:
<quote>
http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/display/inn_news/JTA/vschool1228.txt
JERUSALEM, Dec. 27 (JTA) -- Israeli officials have condemned a
religious school for holding a public burning of the Christian Bible
earlier this month.
Israel's deputy foreign minister, Michael Melchior, called the act a
desecration of God's name. He said in a statement this week that such
acts could "harm our relationship with the Christian world."
"The Jewish people cannot and will not accept the burning of books
holy to others," Melchior said. "We cannot do unto others what has
been done to the Jews for generations."
The Orot school, located in Beit Shemesh, has apologized for burning
the book, which apparently was given to a student by Christian
missionaries.
"The intentions were not to criticize Christianity, but only to tell
these Jewish boys they don't have to listen to the missionaries," said
Jordana Klein, a spokeswoman for the school.
Israel's Education Ministry said it had summoned the school's
principal, Rabbi Yair Bachar, for a disciplinary hearing.
The education ministry opened the inquiry after the story broke in the
Jerusalem Post this week. According to the report, the incident took
place in the school yard the week before Chanukah.
A teacher found out that a sixth-grade student had brought to school a
Hebrew copy of the New Testament that his family had received from
missionaries. The teacher consulted with the school principal, who
reportedly gave his approval for the burning.
After receiving calls from angry parents-and after consulting with a
rabbinic authority-Bachar apparently decided that he had made the
wrong move.
Rabbi David Spector, in Beit Shemesh, ruled that the material should
be burned-but only by the owner and in private.
Bachar reportedly has asked Spector to rule on religious matters for
the school in the future.
In a separate development, a Knesset committee defeated a bill
proposed by religious parties making it illegal to proselytize via
mail or fax machines.
Israel's Justice Minister and the Association for Civil Rights in
Israel had objected to the law, arguing that it violates freedom of
religion and freedom of speech. JTA END
---------
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/nea/index.cfm?docid=794
Israel (for information on occupied territories, see occupied
territories report)
Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2000
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
February 23, 2001
Missionaries are allowed to proselytize, although the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints voluntarily refrains from doing so under
an agreement with the Government. A 1977 anti-proselytizing law
prohibits anyone from offering or receiving material benefits as an
inducement to conversion; however, there have been no reports of its
enforcement. On December 6, a law prohibiting some missionary
activity and the dissemination of some missionary material passed a
first reading in the Knesset.
</quote>
[...]
>>Of course, if proselytization of children was a "criminal offense" one
>>would expect that rather than apologizing for the incident - and
>>summoning the principal for a disciplinary hearing - someone would
>>have alerted the appropriate authorities so that the perpetrator could
>>be apprehended and dealt with accordingly.
>>
>>But don't let logic stand in the way of your willingness to smear
>>Jews, Judaism and/or the State of Israel.
>
>The facts speak for themselves
Yes, they do. But there are none so deaf as those (like you) who will
not hear.
[... and Follow-ups set]
Hilary Ostrov
<20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote:
No, you've been wrong all along - and you still are. But perhaps
you'd care to tell us what it is about "offering or receiving material
benefits as an inducement to conversion" that you do not understand.
Perhaps you'd also care to tell us why you snipped 'n ran from:
<quote>
[...]
In a separate development, a Knesset committee defeated a bill
proposed by religious parties making it illegal to proselytize via
mail or fax machines.
Israel's Justice Minister and the Association for Civil Rights in
Israel had objected to the law, arguing that it violates freedom of
religion and freedom of speech.
</quote>
Nah. Don't bother. It's blatantly obvious why you did it: doesn't
fit with your anti-Jewish, anti-Israel agenda, does it?
Hilary Ostrov
<20011229024635...@mb-fz.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote:
>>From: Hilary Ostrov hos...@telus.net
>>Date: 12/28/01 6:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: <gdaq2u4k357j6oges...@4ax.com>
>>
>>On 29 Dec 2001 02:22:05 GMT, in
>><20011228212205...@mb-fz.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
>>(Debunks) gave us some old news when he wrote:
>>
>>>ISRAELI SCHOOL REGRETS BURNING NEW TESTAMENT
>>>JERUSALEM, Dec 26, 01 (CWNews.com) - A Jewish school on Tuesday
>>>expressed regret for holding a public burning of a copy of the New
>>>Testament, saying the event was a demonstration for students against
>>>Christian proselytizing efforts.
[...]
>>>Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel.
>>>
>>>END
>>>
>>>A criminal offense in Israel? Now, where have we heard that before?
>>
>>From you, of course. And you are just as wrong now as you were then.
>
>Really? The report is a lie, Ms Ostrov? Is that what you are saying?
Please don't attempt put words in my mouth that I have not uttered.
It makes you look even more foolish than usual.
>I know!
> It is a falsehood fabricated out of thin air by mysterious "antisemites"-by
>people as mysterious as the "Elders of Zion," right?
See how foolish you look?!
>>So is the last paragraph of the article - or at least what purports to
>>be the last paragraph. You haven't provided an URL, and I'm not about
>>to take out a subscription to CWN in order to check its archives for
>>your supposed source.
>
>I believe Mr. Bradbury has posted enough URL's to satisfy the most enduring
>skeptics. Of course I quite understand your objection to any Christian source
>as being credible,
I have no objection to Christian sources. They are quite credible,
although sometimes (as in this instance) they do make mistakes. You,
OTOH, are most often not credible.
>but I believe Mr. Bradbury has posted the same story from an
>Israeli source....
Perhaps so. I couldn't recall whether it was Bradbury or Moran who
posted the story before you did. Nonetheless, the original story did
not contain the final paragraph wrongly inserted by your source.
>>nd I'm not about
>>to take out a subscription to CWN in order to check its archives for
>>your supposed source.
>
>No? You are a ubiquitous snoop
I've told you before, checking one's facts and substantiating them
with evidence is not "snooping". I would have thought by now that
even a very slow learner like you would have figured this out. But I
guess I was overestimating your capabilities. I'll try not to make
the mistake of giving you such totally undeserved credit in future.
> and you won't take 5 seconds out to follow a
>simple link, as provided by Mr. Bradbury? Why not?
Since Bradbury's link was not provided in the post I was responding to
- nor even in this thread - (nor did I even see it till several hours
later), I'm not sure why you think I was obliged to follow it. That
aside, it was your article, so why didn't *you* post the link?
>>Of course, if proselytization of children was a "criminal offense" one
>>would expect that rather than apologizing for the incident
>
>It IS a criminal offence in Israel - your personal expectations
>notwithstanding.
No it is not - your CAPITALIZATION notwithstanding.
>> and
>>summoning the principal for a disciplinary hearing -
>
>"If you do this again, don't get caught."
That may be advice that your codohorts have given to you. But you
have absolutely no reason (except your well-known hatred of Jews) - or
evidence in the article - to conclude that this was the purpose of
the disciplinary hearing.
>>someone would
>>have alerted the appropriate authorities so that the perpetrator could
>>be apprehended and dealt with accordingly.
>>
>
>Wonder who alerted them?
How very sad. You are so utterly blinded by your hatred that you
can't even read a simple sentence with any degree of comprehension.
>>But don't let logic stand in the way of your willingness to smear
>>Jews, Judaism and/or the State of Israel.
>>
>
>LOL! It is not a smear. It is the truth.
The last time "truth" emanated from the Bellingomatic keyboard was
when you told us: "I post deliberate misinformation".
>>>Still
>>>care to deny it, Gehrig? Of course you do....I have a feeling their only
>>>"regret" was being caught...
>
>>No. Just because your only regrets for your behaviour here are when
>>you get "caught" (in your case telling lies),
>
>Unlike you, Ms Ostrov, I do not tell lies.
What lies have I told, Joe-Joe? Please don't hold back when you
substantiate this accusation - dates, threads and message ID's will be
fine. (Watch him run, folks)
>> doesn't mean that others
>>conduct themselves in the same amoral fashion.
>
>We can see how they conduct themselves in Israel, Ms Ostrov. The whole world
>sees it.
Indeed. And the whole world (except for marginal Jew-hating
fruit-loops, such as you and Bradbury) knows that, for the most part,
people in Israel do not conduct themselves in the scurrilous manner in
which Joe Bellinger chooses to conduct himself.
>
>>>Most likely incidents like this are a common
>>>occurrence in "democratic" Israel...
>>
>>No. Most likely Bellinger is talking through his Jew-hating hat -
>>again.
>And so she ends with a smear.
No smear there. You have made it perfectly clear that in your eyes the
only "good" Jew is one who has converted to Christianity.
>How typical.
Of you? Yes. Btw ... I notice that you seem to have missed my Dec.
20 response to your request for more information about Father Ernest
Jouin. Would you like me to repost it? (Watch him run - again -
folks.)
Yosarian
Blanche transference is such an ugly thing to see. Just admit that you
hate Jews and that you believe that any one who posts any thing which
contradicts what you say is what ever you claim they are. I find you
childish, churlish, and just plain in need of a logic rework.
Tavish
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet.bible,alt.religion.christianity,
soc.culture.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican
Subject: Re: Supplement: ISRAELI SCHOOL REGRETS BURNING NEW TESTAMENT (Added
Material)
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: myssiwyg*
Reply-To: hos...@telus.net
Message-ID: <qitq2usmkfklosd8p...@4ax.com>
References: <20011228212205...@mb-fz.aol.com>
<gdaq2u4k357j6oges...@4ax.com>
<4hlq2us9b34sq98k7...@4ax.com>
On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 08:27:44 GMT, <qitq2usmkfklosd8p...@4ax.com>
Hilary Ostrov <hos...@telus.net> wrote:
I notice now that you are attempting to side step the fact brought out by
DEBUNKS which was: "Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel."
I provided more proof and I noticed that you did not acknowledge it and for a
fact you deleted it from your current reply as we now see!
Here, in brief, is what Hilary Ostroll deleted:
(NOTE: The sources too!)
<START>
<end>
[...]
[...]
[...]
<end>
http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi/archives5760/vayetze/amission.htm
<end>
<STOP>
Naturally the Jews are doing damage control but for a fact missionary activity
is either illegal or a penal offense in Israel in cases of proselytizing
"minors" or is subverted at all levels!
>---------
>http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/nea/index.cfm?docid=794
>
>Israel (for information on occupied territories, see occupied
>territories report)
>
>Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2000
>
>Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
>
>February 23, 2001
>
>Missionaries are allowed to proselytize, although the Church of Jesus
>Christ of Latter-Day Saints voluntarily refrains from doing so under
>an agreement with the Government.
>
>A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from offering or receiving
>material benefits as an inducement to conversion; however, there have been
>no reports of its enforcement.
----------------------
Thanks for acknowledging such a law exists Hilary and see how you have
contradicted yourself! You have claimed:
DEBUNKS wrote:
>>>>A criminal offense in Israel? Now, where have we heard that before?
Hilary Ostroll wrote:
>>>From you, of course. And you are just as wrong now as you were then.
I, Doc Tavish, countered and prove again in this very post:
>>Oh contraire Hilary! The following material proves "Proselytizing children is a
>>criminal offense in Israel"!
----------------------
(Back to Hilary's denial):
>On December 6, a law prohibiting some missionary activity and the dissemination
>of some missionary material passed a first reading in the Knesset.
Thus we see the Pharisees are up to their old tricks!
></quote>
>
>[...]
>
>>>Of course, if proselytization of children was a "criminal offense" one
>>>would expect that rather than apologizing for the incident - and
>>>summoning the principal for a disciplinary hearing - someone would
>>>have alerted the appropriate authorities so that the perpetrator could
>>>be apprehended and dealt with accordingly.
I show above that "proselytization of children [is] a "criminal offense"" in
Israel! How long will you remain in denial Ms. Ostroll?
>>>But don't let logic stand in the way of your willingness to smear
>>>Jews, Judaism and/or the State of Israel.
:
>>The facts speak for themselves
>Yes, they do. But there are none so deaf as those (like you) who will
>not hear.
What you said applies to you and your crowd Ms. Ostroll.
>[... and Follow-ups set]
I restored all the news groups my article was posted to originally. Why did you
delete all the news groups? Are you afraid for other people to observe your
pathetic denial of facts?
>hro
>=====================
>Hilary Ostrov
Need I say more other than the above is just another example of a Gentile dupe!
Doc Tavish
---
"We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink containing
wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non-Jew after the seal of the
bottle has been opened." <http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html>
Information taken from: Is it Kosher, Rabbi E. Eidlitz and Spice and Spirit,
The Lubavitch Women's Cookbook Publications (July 12, 2001)
Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a
glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the
wine unclean." Jewish Talmud
Philip Mathews
news:20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com...
> > A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from
> >offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to conversion;
> >however, there have been no reports of its enforcement. On December 6, a
> >law prohibiting some missionary activity and the dissemination of some
> >missionary material passed a first reading in the Knesset.
> How interesting! So I was right all along, and Gehrig stands
self-convicted as
> a liar, once again.
No, you said it was against the law to proselytize children. The only
prohibition is against inducements to conversion, hardly the same thing.
As for the law which passed a first reading, which hardly makes it a law, I
believe that was covered in the final two paragraphs of the other article
which you snipped.
http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/display/inn_news/JTA/vschool1228.txt
In a separate development, a Knesset committee defeated a bill proposed by
religious parties making it illegal to proselytize via mail or fax machines.
Israel's Justice Minister and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel had
objected to the law, arguing that it violates freedom of religion and
freedom of speech. JTA END
---------
Of course were Israel to take stronger measures to discourage proselytizing,
even outlawing it, she would only be bringing herself more into line with
many of her neighbors in the greater Middle East region.
http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/970722_relig_rpt_christian.html
United States Policies in Support of Religious Freedom:
Focus on Christians
Report Consistent with the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act, Fiscal
Year 1997, House Report 3610
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor Affairs, July
22, 1997.
Afghanistan
Current situation: Islam is the state religion. The small number of
non-Muslim residents, mostly Hindus and Sikhs, may practice their religion
but may not proselytize. There are very few Christian residents; most are
foreigners.
Azerbaijan
Current situation: Azerbaijan's constitution does not designate a state
religion. It provides for the right of people of all faiths to practice
their religion without restrictions, and the Government generally respects
these rights. However, the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict led in the late 1980's
to rising anti-Armenian sentiment and the forced departure of most of the
Armenian population, which has led to the closing of Armenian churches. A
1996 law on foreigners and stateless persons prohibits religious
proselytizing by foreigners, although it is unclear how actively this law is
being enforced.
Brunei
Current situation: The constitution states that the country's religion is
the Shafeite sect of the Muslim religion, "provided that all other religions
may be practiced in peace and harmony by the person professing them." In
1997 the Government sporadically voiced alarm about "outsiders" preaching
radical Islamic fundamentalist or unorthodox beliefs. Citizens deemed to
have been influenced by such preaching (usually students returning from
overseas study), have been "shown the error of their ways" in study seminars
organized by orthodox Islamic religious leaders. The Government seems more
concerned about these so-called Islamic "opportunists" than unwelcome
political views.
Despite constitutional provisions providing for the full and unconstrained
exercise of religious freedom, the Government routinely restricts the
practice of non-Muslim religions by prohibiting proselytizing; occasionally
denying entry to foreign clergy or particular priests, bishops, or
ministers; banning the import of religious teaching materials or scriptures
such as the Bible; and refusing permission to expand, repair, or build new
churches, temples, and shrines.
Iran
Current situation: The Iranian constitution declares that Islam is the
"official religion" of Iran and that "the sect followed is Ja'fari Shi'ism."
The Government restricts freedom of religion both for other Muslim sects and
other religious minorities, including Christians. The constitution states
that other Islamic denominations "shall enjoy complete respect," and also
recognizes Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism. Members of these
religions elect representatives to reserved parliamentary seats. They may
practice their religion and instruct their children, but the Government
interferes with the administration of their schools and harassment by
government officials is common. The law also stipulates penalties for
government workers who do not observe "Islamic principles and rules."
Non-Muslims may not proselytize Muslims. Muslims who convert to another
faith are considered apostates and may be subject to the death penalty. Four
Baha'is remain in prison under death sentences, convicted on charges of
apostasy in 1996. There have been no reports in recent years of Christians
convicted on apostasy charges.
Jordan
Current situation: Jordan's constitution designates Islam as the state
religion, but also prohibits discrimination based on religion and provides
for "personal freedom." The Government does not interfere with public
worship by Jordan's Christian minority.
The Government does not officially recognize Jehovah's Witnesses, the United
Pentecostal Church, the Church of Christ, and the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day Saints, but it allows them to conduct their activities without
interference. Other, more established religious groups, which include
Muslims, Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Baptists, Anglicans,
Presbyterians, Syriacs, and Armenian Orthodox, require official government
recognition in order to register property in the name of the organization,
but members may practice their religion without government recognition. The
law prohibits non-Muslims from proselytizing. Muslims who convert to other
faiths report social and government discrimination. In general, however,
Christians do not suffer discrimination.
Kuwait
Current situation: Islam is the state religion of Kuwait. The constitution
states that Islamic law (or Shari'a), is "a main source of legislation." The
constitution provides for freedom of religion, and there are several legally
recognized expatriate congregations and churches, including a Catholic
diocese and several Protestant churches. The Government prohibits
missionaries from proselytizing among Muslims; however, they may serve
expatriate congregations. The law prohibits religious education for
religions other than Islam, although this law does not appear to be rigidly
enforced.
Pakistan
Current situation: Pakistan's constitution establishes Islam as the state
religion. Since 1986, Section 295(c) of the Penal Code has stipulated the
death penalty for blaspheming the Prophet Mohammed. According to the Human
Rights Commission of Pakistan, police opened one case against a Christian,
Ayub Masih, under Section 295(c) in 1996. This blasphemy provision
contributes to inter-religious tension, intimidation, fear, and violence.
The Government permits Muslims to convert to other faiths, but proselytizing
among Muslims is illegal. Islamic extremists have assaulted, raped, and even
murdered members of religious minorities. In many cases, police fail to take
necessary precautions or investigate or prosecute those responsible.
Saudi Arabia
Current situation: Freedom of religion does not exist in Saudi Arabia. Islam
is the official religion, and all citizens must be Muslims. The Government
of Saudi Arabia believes that it has a unique position as guardian of the
two holiest shrines of Islam, so it prohibits the public and private
practice of other religions. Persons wearing religious symbols risk
confrontation with the Mutawwa'in (religious police). The U.S. Embassy in
Riyadh reports that both citizens and foreigners are targets of harassment
by members of the Mutawwa'in and by religious vigilantes acting
independently. Non-Muslim worshipers risk arrest, lashing, and deportation
for engaging in any religious activity that attracts official attention.
There are isolated reports of harassment and arrest of foreign workers
conducting clandestine worship services, but precise numbers of such
incidents can not be determined. However, most non-Muslim religious services
are conducted without any interference.
United Arab Emirates
Current situation: Islam is the official religion of all the emirates.
Citizens are predominantly Sunni Muslims. Non-Muslims are free to practice
their religion but may not proselytize publicly or distribute religious
literature. Major cities have Christian churches, some built on land donated
by the ruling families. The Government permits foreign clergy to minister to
expatriate congregations.
Uzbekistan
Current situation: The constitution provides for freedom of religion and the
separation of religion and state. Russian Orthodox and several other
Christian denominations operate freely. However, tensions arise when
churches attempt to convert across ethnic lines, particularly the conversion
of Muslims to Christianity. Missionary activity and proselytizing are
illegal.
--
Philip Mathews
Tavish
<jIlX7.40590$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> "Philip Mathews"
<philip...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>"Debunks" <deb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com...
>
>> > A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from
>> >offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to conversion;
>> >however, there have been no reports of its enforcement. On December 6, a
>> >law prohibiting some missionary activity and the dissemination of some
>> >missionary material passed a first reading in the Knesset.
>>
>> How interesting! So I was right all along, and Gehrig stands
>>self-convicted as a liar, once again.
:
>No, you said it was against the law to proselytize children. The only
>prohibition is against inducements to conversion, hardly the same thing.
What do you think proselytizing is?
>As for the law which passed a first reading, which hardly makes it a law, I
>believe that was covered in the final two paragraphs of the other article
>which you snipped.
How about this?
<end>
[...]
[...]
[...]
<end>
http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi/archives5760/vayetze/amission.htm
<STOP>
>http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/display/inn_news/JTA/vschool1228.txt
>
>In a separate development, a Knesset committee defeated a bill proposed by
>religious parties making it illegal to proselytize via mail or fax machines.
>
>Israel's Justice Minister and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel had
>objected to the law, arguing that it violates freedom of religion and
>freedom of speech. JTA END
>
>
>---------
>
>Of course were Israel to take stronger measures to discourage proselytizing,
>even outlawing it, she would only be bringing herself more into line with
>many of her neighbors in the greater Middle East region.
Arguing about what other nations of the Middle East do as a defense for Israel
is comparing apples to oranges! None of them claim any sort of a relationship
such as a "Judeo-Christian Alliance" nor does the United States give them
billions of dollars of aid each year! Christianity did not spring from Islamics
rather it came from "Jews." Christianity of the New Covenant replaced the old
Jewish Old Covenant and has nothing to do with Islam!
See:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&rnum=3&selm=v0ec1u8uclq45qrearufs7llguso7oa4qo%404ax.com
Subject: Old Covenant Vs New -- New Covenant Replaces Old Covenant aka Re: Jews
NO Longer God's Chosen People So Says the Scripture! R 10
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:56:33 -0600
Message-ID: <v0ec1u8uclq45qrea...@4ax.com>
I love how the dupes of the Pharisees stridently defend the original and true
anti-Christs!
Philip Mathews
"Tavish" <t-a--v-i...@i-x.n-e-t-co--m.co--mRemoveHyphens2Mail> wrote
in message news:c47s2uo7pn91e8ptk...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:55:59 GMT,
> <jIlX7.40590$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> "Philip Mathews"
> <philip...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >"Debunks" <deb...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com...
> >
> >> > A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from
> >> >offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to
conversion;
> >> >however, there have been no reports of its enforcement. On December
6, a
> >> >law prohibiting some missionary activity and the dissemination of some
> >> >missionary material passed a first reading in the Knesset.
> >>
> >> How interesting! So I was right all along, and Gehrig stands
> >>self-convicted as a liar, once again.
> :
> >No, you said it was against the law to proselytize children. The only
> >prohibition is against inducements to conversion, hardly the same thing.
>
> What do you think proselytizing is?
Proselytizing doesn't require material benefits.
If I tell you to accept Jesus Christ or you'll be damned, that's an
inducement, but not a material benefit.
If I tell you I'll provide food, shelter and an education, that's a material
benefit.
In short, an inducement is not the same thing as a material benefit.
> >As for the law which passed a first reading, which hardly makes it a law,
I
> >believe that was covered in the final two paragraphs of the other article
> >which you snipped.
>
> How about this?
The first is a mention of the bill which I have shown did not pass.
The rest are irrelevant.
You are capable of reading with comprehension?
Or has your mindless hatred poisoned your brain?
--
Philip Mathews
Debunks
>Message-id: <dmkr2ugs1r1uo5g79...@4ax.com>
Then why do you always indulge yourself with it in this newsgroup, Yossi?
>Just admit that you
>hate Jews and that you believe that any one who posts any thing which
>contradicts what you say is what ever you claim they are.
Why should I cater to your silly fantasies, funny man?
>I find you
>childish, churlish, and just plain in need of a logic rework.
So you imagine I am like you? No, I am not. If you really believed that, you
would hardly waste one second of your time replying to me.
Debunks
>Date: 12/29/01 3:37 AM EST
>Message-id: <kovq2u0qt3ei1o2h7...@4ax.com>
>
>On 29 Dec 2001 07:47:56 GMT, in
><20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
>(Debunks) wrote:
>
>>> A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from
>>>offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to conversion;
>>>however, there have been no reports of its enforcement. On December 6, a
>>>law prohibiting some missionary activity and the dissemination of some
>>>missionary material passed a first reading in the Knesset.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Philip Mathews
>
>>How interesting! So I was right all along, and Gehrig stands self-convicted
>as
>>a liar, once again.
>
>No, you've been wrong all along - and you still are. But perhaps
>you'd care to tell us what it is about "offering or receiving material
>benefits as an inducement to conversion" that you do not understand.
>
Well, Ms Ostrov, say whatever you like. People can decide for themselves who
is being honest here.
Your attempt to change the topic will be ignored.
Debunks
>Date: 12/29/01 10:55 AM EST
>Message-id: <jIlX7.40590$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
>
>"Debunks" <deb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com...
>
>> > A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from
>> >offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to conversion;
>> >however, there have been no reports of its enforcement. On December 6, a
>> >law prohibiting some missionary activity and the dissemination of some
>> >missionary material passed a first reading in the Knesset.
>
>> How interesting! So I was right all along, and Gehrig stands
>self-convicted as
>> a liar, once again.
>
>No, you said it was against the law to proselytize children. The only
>prohibition is against inducements to conversion, hardly the same thing.
>
Don't try and tell me what I said, Philip.
>As for the law which passed a first reading, which hardly makes it a law, I
>believe that was covered in the final two paragraphs of the other article
>which you snipped.
All sources save you liars here in ar agree that the law was passed. I will
believe these sources over people like you, who have zilch credibility.
>http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/display/inn_news/JTA/vschool1228.txt
>
>In a separate development, a Knesset committee defeated a bill proposed by
>religious parties making it illegal to proselytize via mail or fax machines
How sweet of them!@
>Israel's Justice Minister and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel had
>objected to the law, arguing that it violates freedom of religion and
>freedom of speech. JTA END
LOL! Perhaps they should take another look at their 1977 law.
>Of course were Israel to take stronger measures to discourage proselytizing,
>even outlawing it, she would only be bringing herself more into line with
>many of her neighbors in the greater Middle East region.
No, she would only be doing what they really want to do. There would not be
enough stones in Israel to assist in what they really would want to do to
Christians. We can see how genteely Christians were treated by the Israeli
army recently....
snip attempt to play equivalents
Debunks
>Date: 12/29/01 2:54 PM EST
>Message-id: <c47s2uo7pn91e8ptk...@4ax.com>
Nothing quite hurts like the truth. Thank you, Mr. Bradbury.
Philip Mathews
> >Subject: Re: A Message for Gehrig and Ostrov
> >From: "Philip Mathews" philip...@mediaone.net
> >Date: 12/29/01 10:55 AM EST
> >Message-id: <jIlX7.40590$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
> >
> >"Debunks" <deb...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com...
> >
> >> > A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from
> >> >offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to
conversion;
> >> >however, there have been no reports of its enforcement. On December
6, a
> >> >law prohibiting some missionary activity and the dissemination of some
> >> >missionary material passed a first reading in the Knesset.
> >
> >> How interesting! So I was right all along, and Gehrig stands
> >self-convicted as
> >> a liar, once again.
> >
> >No, you said it was against the law to proselytize children. The only
> >prohibition is against inducements to conversion, hardly the same thing.
> >
>
> Don't try and tell me what I said, Philip.
You said it was against the law to proselytize children. You were wrong.
> >As for the law which passed a first reading, which hardly makes it a law,
I
> >believe that was covered in the final two paragraphs of the other article
> >which you snipped.
>
> All sources save you liars here in ar agree that the law was passed. I
will
> believe these sources over people like you, who have zilch credibility.
No, all sources do not agree.
The US State Departments report on religious freedom has more credibility
than any source you've posted.
> >http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/display/inn_news/JTA/vschool1228.txt
> >
> >In a separate development, a Knesset committee defeated a bill proposed
by
> >religious parties making it illegal to proselytize via mail or fax
machines
>
> How sweet of them!@
>
> >Israel's Justice Minister and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel
had
> >objected to the law, arguing that it violates freedom of religion and
> >freedom of speech. JTA END
>
> LOL! Perhaps they should take another look at their 1977 law.
Offering material benefits is not speech.
Stings like Hell to be shown to be wrong so often, doesn't it Bellinger!
> >Of course were Israel to take stronger measures to discourage
proselytizing,
> >even outlawing it, she would only be bringing herself more into line with
> >many of her neighbors in the greater Middle East region.
>
> No, she would only be doing what they really want to do. There would not
be
> enough stones in Israel to assist in what they really would want to do to
> Christians.
Having been shown to be wrong about a law against proselytizing you now wish
to suggest that Israeli's want to stone Christians?
> snip attempt to play equivalents
Apparently Joe Bellinger is less interested in countries banning religious
proselytizing than he is in falsely accusing Jews of doing so!
--
Philip Mathews
Debunks
>Date: 12/29/01 4:40 AM EST
>Message-id: <980r2u807l6uacf52...@4ax.com>
>
>On 29 Dec 2001 07:46:35 GMT, in
><20011229024635...@mb-fz.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
>(Debunks) wrote:
>
>>>From: Hilary Ostrov hos...@telus.net
>>>Date: 12/28/01 6:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: <gdaq2u4k357j6oges...@4ax.com>
>>>
>>>On 29 Dec 2001 02:22:05 GMT, in
>>><20011228212205...@mb-fz.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
>>>(Debunks) gave us some old news when he wrote:
>>>
>>>>ISRAELI SCHOOL REGRETS BURNING NEW TESTAMENT
>>>>JERUSALEM, Dec 26, 01 (CWNews.com) - A Jewish school on Tuesday
>>>>expressed regret for holding a public burning of a copy of the New
>>>>Testament, saying the event was a demonstration for students against
>>>>Christian proselytizing efforts.
>
>[...]
>
>>>>Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel.
>>>>
>>>>END
>>>>
>>>>A criminal offense in Israel? Now, where have we heard that before?
>>>
>>>From you, of course. And you are just as wrong now as you were then.
>>
>>Really? The report is a lie, Ms Ostrov? Is that what you are saying?
>
>Please don't attempt put words in my mouth that I have not uttered.
>It makes you look even more foolish than usual.
Right now we are interested in how YOU are portraying yourself. Now, answer
the question: Are you saying the report is a lie? Yes or no?
>>I know!
>> It is a falsehood fabricated out of thin air by mysterious "antisemites"-by
>>people as mysterious as the "Elders of Zion," right?
>
>See how foolish you look?!
How so, Ms Ostrov?
>>So is the last paragraph of the article - or at least what purports to
>>>be the last paragraph. You haven't provided an URL, and I'm not about
>>>to take out a subscription to CWN in order to check its archives for
>>>your supposed source.
>>I believe Mr. Bradbury has posted enough URL's to satisfy the most enduring
>>skeptics. Of course I quite understand your objection to any Christian
>source
>>as being credible,
>
>I have no objection to Christian sources. They are quite credible,
>although sometimes (as in this instance) they do make mistakes.
So the have made a mistake? Where?
>instance) they do make mistakes. You,
>OTOH, are most often not credible.
>
Well, let's leave me out of this little equation for now.
>
>>but I believe Mr. Bradbury has posted the same story from an
>>Israeli source....
>
>Perhaps so. I couldn't recall whether it was Bradbury or Moran who
>posted the story before you did.
Yet you acknowledge it was posted. Thank you.
>Nonetheless, the original story did
>not contain the final paragraph wrongly inserted by your source.
>
Where is the final paragraph wrong, Ms Ostrov? Did not Mr. Bradbury post
information which verified that last paragraph?
>
>>>nd I'm not about
>>>to take out a subscription to CWN in order to check its archives for
>>>your supposed source.
>>
>>No? You are a ubiquitous snoop
>
>
>I've told you before, checking one's facts and substantiating them
>with evidence is not "snooping"
Well, whatever it is or isn't, why are you so reluctant to do so in this
instance?
> I would have thought by now that
>even a very slow learner like you would have figured this out.
As a matter of fact, I am not a learner but an instructor. And it would do you
well to pay attention.
>But I
>guess I was overestimating your capabilities.
Well, you have always underestimated them before...but this is a minor point in
the ultimate scheme of things here. Let's move on...
>I'll try not to make
>the mistake of giving you such totally undeserved credit in future.
And I will try not to make the mistake of ever taking you seriously either.
>> and you won't take 5 seconds out to follow a
>>simple link, as provided by Mr. Bradbury? Why not?
>Since Bradbury's link was not provided in the post I was responding to
>- nor even in this thread - (nor did I even see it till several hours
>later), I'm not sure why you think I was obliged to follow it
No one says you are obliged to follow it. I am simply asking you why you
won't.
> That
>aside, it was your article, so why didn't *you* post the link?
No one asked me to.
>
>>>Of course, if proselytization of children was a "criminal offense" one
>>>would expect that rather than apologizing for the incident
>>
>>It IS a criminal offence in Israel - your personal expectations
>>notwithstanding.
>No it is not - your CAPITALIZATION notwithstanding.
>
The facts argue otherwise, Ms Ostrov. Your fantasies are of little interest to
me. Save them for David Michael.
>> and
>>>summoning the principal for a disciplinary hearing -
>>
>>"If you do this again, don't get caught."
>That may be advice that your codohorts have given to you
Cohorts, Ms Ostrov. Anyway,. I have no cohorts to speak of, nor do I desire
any.
> But you
>have absolutely no reason (except your well-known hatred of Jews
What well known hatred? Care to be specific? Of course not. I asked you to
keep your fantasies out of these exchanges.
>- or
>evidence in the article - to conclude that this was the purpose of
>the disciplinary hearing.
Who denounced them, Ms. Ostrov? Have any details for us?
>>>someone would
>>>have alerted the appropriate authorities so that the perpetrator could
>>>be apprehended and dealt with accordingly.
>
>>Wonder who alerted them?
>How very sad. You are so utterly blinded by your hatred that you
>can't even read a simple sentence with any degree of comprehension.
Why aren't you answering the question? Who alerted them?
>>>But don't let logic stand in the way of your willingness to smear
>>>Jews, Judaism and/or the State of Israel.
>>>
>>
>>LOL! It is not a smear. It is the truth.
>The last time "truth" emanated from the Bellingomatic keyboard was
>when you told us: "I post deliberate misinformation".
Oh, that old distortion of my comments again. What is this compulsion of yours
to misrepresent the statements of people who disagree with your opinions
anyway?
>
>>>>Still
>>>>care to deny it, Gehrig? Of course you do....I have a feeling their only
>>>>"regret" was being caught...
>>
>>>No. Just because your only regrets for your behaviour here are when
>>>you get "caught" (in your case telling lies),
>>
>>Unlike you, Ms Ostrov, I do not tell lies.
>
>What lies have I told, Joe-Joe?
Your lie is the smear, Ms Ostrov. Your lie is the snide and vile insinuation,
intended to besmirch the character of those who disagree with you. You have
lied concerning the statement "I post deliberate misinformation" which ignores
my own definition of the statement and why I made it and under what
circumstances. That is how you lie, Ms. Ostrov. But you know that. It is
your signature.
>Please don't hold back when you
>substantiate this accusation - dates, threads and message ID's will be
>fine. (Watch him run, folks)
All that is unnecessary. I have described your peculiar devious methodology
above.
>
>>> doesn't mean that others
>>>conduct themselves in the same amoral fashion.
>>
>>We can see how they conduct themselves in Israel, Ms Ostrov. The whole
>world
>>sees it.
>Indeed. And the whole world (except for marginal Jew-hating
>fruit-loops, such as you and Bradbury
Another lie. Why do you call people "Jew-haters" who are not, Ms Ostrov? Care
to explain this odd behavior on your part? Why do you make untruthful
accusations against people who disagree with your opinions?
>knows that, for the most part,
>people in Israel do not conduct themselves in the scurrilous manner in
>which Joe Bellinger chooses to conduct himself.
No? I myself have witnessed two well-dressed, elderly Jews arguing between
themselves in a bank, and one of them screeched at the other, "You're a NAZI!
A NAZI!"
>>
>>>>Most likely incidents like this are a common
>>>>occurrence in "democratic" Israel...
>>>
>>>No. Most likely Bellinger is talking through his Jew-hating hat -
>>>again.
>And so she ends with a smear.
>
>No smear there.
Oh, please, Hilary! You are the smear personified.
>You have made it perfectly clear that in your eyes the
>only "good" Jew is one who has converted to Christianity.
In fact, I have said that I hold Rabbi Leo Beck, among many other rabbis, in
high esteem. That was a personal observation which you have deliberately
chosen to ignore. Naturally, though, I approve, defend and will endorse any
Jewish person who converts to Christianity. I regard these Jewish Christians
as my brothers and sisters in Christ. Among Christians, at least, it is right
and proper to do so. And I have never opined that Jews should be converted by
force; only by persuasion.
>>How typical.
>
>Of you? Yes. Btw ... I notice that you seem to have missed my Dec.
>20 response to your request for more information about Father Ernest
>Jouin. Would you like me to repost it? (Watch him run - again -
>folks.)
Please do. I asked. I thought I had already replied to that, though.
Debunks
>Material)
>Date: 12/29/01 10:35 AM EST
>Message-id: <bcnr2us9ppo2juj9m...@4ax.com>
Well, Hilary? Will you respond to those sections which you snipped from Mr.
Bradbury's post? I am willing to listen to any explanation on your part,
should you care to give one.
Philip Mathews
news:TgwX7.41194$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
> "Debunks" <deb...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20011229224230...@mb-cn.aol.com...
>
> > >Subject: Re: A Message for Gehrig and Ostrov
> > >From: "Philip Mathews" philip...@mediaone.net
> > >Date: 12/29/01 10:55 AM EST
> > >Message-id: <jIlX7.40590$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
> > >
> > >"Debunks" <deb...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > >news:20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com...
> > >
> > >> > A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from
> > >> >offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to
> conversion;
> > >> >however, there have been no reports of its enforcement. On December
> 6, a
> > >> >law prohibiting some missionary activity and the dissemination of
some
> > >> >missionary material passed a first reading in the Knesset.
> > >
> > >> How interesting! So I was right all along, and Gehrig stands
> > >self-convicted as
> > >> a liar, once again.
> > >
> > >No, you said it was against the law to proselytize children. The only
> > >prohibition is against inducements to conversion, hardly the same
thing.
> > >
> >
> > Don't try and tell me what I said, Philip.
>
> You said it was against the law to proselytize children. You were wrong.
You did say proselytizing children was against the law.
And it seems you were correct.
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/12/28/News/News.40758.html
Education Ministry suspends book-burning principal, teacher
By Shoshana Kordova
JERUSALEM (December 28) - The Education Ministry announced yesterday that it
is temporarily suspending the teacher who publicly burned a copy of the New
Testament and the principal who gave his approval.
Rabbi Yair Bachar, principal of the Orot State Religious School in Beit
Shemesh, and Ronen Tzarum, the sixth-grade teacher whose name the ministry
released, will remain suspended until the national committee responsible for
disciplinary action makes a final decision. Ministry spokeswoman Orit
Reuveni gave no indication of when that would be.
The week before Hanukka, Tzaram discovered that one of his sixth-grade
students had brought in a Hebrew copy of the New Testament, given to him by
Christian missionaries. The teacher consulted with Bachar and, after
receiving his approval, burned the book in the school courtyard.
The incident, reported first in The Jerusalem Post, made waves in the
Knesset, with MK Ran Cohen (Meretz) saying he was "astounded" to read about
the case in the Post and demanded that Education Minister Limor Livnat
publish a formal announcement deploring the burning of other religions' holy
books.
"I'm shocked by the fact that educators contribute to book-burning,
especially when it comes to a religious book," said Education Ministry
Director-General Ronit Tirosh in a written statement yesterday. "I am not
prepared to accept an action like this for any reason. Actions like this
were done in the Dark Ages, and we will not allow them to be done today in
our educational system, which teaches values, tolerance, and enlightenment."
The ministry has forbidden Orot representatives from speaking to the press
until the matter is fully decided.
Livnat had directed Tirosh to summon Bachar and Tzaram to a hearing, after
which they were suspended.
Several Beit Shemesh residents said they hope Bachar and Tzaram will not be
compelled to leave the school, since school officials had expressed regret
soon after the book-burning.
"I think there's a world of difference between an apology that comes after
the story's already broken in the paper and an apology that comes before
that," said Ya'acov Har-Oz, whose son is in fourth grade at Orot. "In this
case, the apology came before, so I think that's something the Ministry of
Education needs to take into account."
The incident does not represent the attitude of the school in general, said
Bar-Oz's wife, Tamar, a board member of Sha'alei Torah, the organization
that administers Orot. The school was established as a way of raising the
level of secular and religious education in what had been a development
town, she said. The open attitude may be indicated in part by the mix of the
student body - about 60 percent Anglo and 40% Russian and Ethiopian
immigrants and mostly Sephardi sabras.
The school "explicitly stands for tolerance and love of the Jewish people,
and not for any of the things that were reflected in this one unreflective
incident," said Tamar Bar-Oz. "This was an unrepresentative event."
By the time they found out about the incident, Bachar had already performed
a short skit in school with the message that any student who finds
missionary material should quietly dispose of it and that they should be
tolerant of other religions, said Tamar Bar-Oz.
"I just wish we could put this matter to rest without ruining these poor
guys' careers, and I think it may be too late for that," she said.
Several people said the focus of the incident should not be on the burning
of the New Testament or on the educators responsible for it, but on the
proselytizing that led a student to bring the book to class.
"The key is not New Testament-burning, it's the missionary problem," said
Mark Powers, international director of Jews for Judaism, a
counter-missionary organization. Powers, who is visiting from the US, will
be speaking in Beit Shemesh Sunday night. He was asked to speak there last
week, before news of the book-burning became public, he said.
The number of Hebrew-Christian groups in the country has increased over the
last six or seven years from about 30 to more than 100, said Powers. He
estimates that between 8,000 and 12,000 people belong to these groups,
although he doesn't know how many Jews they approached or converted.
Beit Shemesh Mayor Daniel Vaknin maintained missionary activity is not a
major problem in the city and said he does not intend to take any steps to
curtail it.
"I don't see some established [missionary] institution in action in my city,
and even if there are exceptional instances here and there, there's
certainly no need to fight them with tanks," he said. "You don't have to
bring in tanks for a fly."
Miriam Porat, principal of the town's Menachem Begin Elementary School, said
she has not seen the effects of missionary activity in the secular school.
If a student were to bring in missionary materials, Porat said she would
either ask him to put it in his bag or would begin a discussion to help the
students understand the situation.
But several students at Orot said they had been approached by missionaries,
after Bachar initiated discussions about missionary activity, said Sha'alei
Torah spokeswoman Jordana Klein. One sixth-grade boy said missionaries had
hung a crucifix behind the mezuza of his house, she said.
Proselytizing minors is a crime.
The missionaries have been targeting the poorer section of Beit Shemesh,
said Klein, rather than the wealthier, newer sections.
That pattern is typical all over the country, said Powers. "If you're going
to look for someone to go after, you're going to go after someone who's more
vulnerable," he said. Some Christian aid organizations add a dose of their
religion to the material support they provide to Jews in need, he said.
Telling others about Jesus is one of the goals of some Christian
organizations, said the Rev. Ray Lockhart, director of the Jerusalem-based
Israel Trust of the Anglican Church, which ministers to the Jews. "The
church is by definition a missionary organization," he said. "We want to
share with other people something of the reality of what we have discovered
for ourselves."
But burning Christian scriptures is not the way to combat missionary
activities, said Powers. "Letting the Jewish community know who these people
are, what they're saying, and what's wrong with what they're saying, that's
the way to deal with it."
--
Philip Mathews
Hilary Ostrov
<20011229230613...@mb-cn.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote:
We? Who is "we"? And what on earth does how I "portray" myself have
to do with anything?
>Now, answer
>the question:
Told you before, you pathetic little fuehrer-wannabe, I don't take
orders from anyone, least of all a Jew-hating Nazi apologist like you.
> Are you saying the report is a lie? Yes or no?
The body of the report is correct. As noted originally, however, the
final paragraph, which reads:
<quote>
Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel.
</quote>
is utterly without foundation and is _not_ correct. Furthermore, I
don't care how many of Bradbury's incoherent rants (or your own) you
choose to believe because they fit with your hate-filled agenda, it
will never change the fact that proselytizing is not a criminal
offense in Israel.
Clearly, as Mr. Mathews has noted elsewhere in this thread, Joe
Bellinger is far less interested in countries which actually *do*
prohibit Christian proselytization than he is of falsely accusing Jews
of doing so.
[...]
<insert next Bellingomatic inanities here>
Debunks
>Message-id: <TgwX7.41194$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
>
>"Debunks" <deb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20011229224230...@mb-cn.aol.com...
>
>> >Subject: Re: A Message for Gehrig and Ostrov
>> >From: "Philip Mathews" philip...@mediaone.net
>> >Date: 12/29/01 10:55 AM EST
>> >Message-id: <jIlX7.40590$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
>> >
>> >"Debunks" <deb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> >news:20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com...
>> >
>> >> > A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from
>> >> >offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to
>conversion;
>> >> >however, there have been no reports of its enforcement. On December
>6, a
>> >> >law prohibiting some missionary activity and the dissemination of some
>> >> >missionary material passed a first reading in the Knesset.
>> >
>> >> How interesting! So I was right all along, and Gehrig stands
>> >self-convicted as
>> >> a liar, once again.
>> >
>> >No, you said it was against the law to proselytize children. The only
>> >prohibition is against inducements to conversion, hardly the same thing.
>> >
>>
>> Don't try and tell me what I said, Philip.
>
>You said it was against the law to proselytize children. You were wrong.
>
*I* said nothing of the sort, Mr. Mathews. I posted an article which made the
statement, but yes; I do agree that it is true and factual, and Mr. Bradbury
posted further information on this subject which is quite credible.
>> >As for the law which passed a first reading, which hardly makes it a law,
>I
>> >believe that was covered in the final two paragraphs of the other article
>> >which you snipped.
>> All sources save you liars here in ar agree that the law was passed. I
>will
>> believe these sources over people like you, who have zilch credibility.
>
>No, all sources do not agree.
>
All the sources I have examined do.
>The US State Departments report on religious freedom has more credibility
>than any source you've posted.
That is your opinion. I disagree with you. The information I have accessed is
quite credible.
>http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/display/inn_news/JTA/vschool1228.txt
>> >
>> >In a separate development, a Knesset committee defeated a bill proposed
>by
>> >religious parties making it illegal to proselytize via mail or fax
>machines
>> How sweet of them!@
>>
>> >Israel's Justice Minister and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel
>had
>> >objected to the law, arguing that it violates freedom of religion and
>> >freedom of speech. JTA END
>>
>>
>> LOL! Perhaps they should take another look at their 1977 law.
>
>Offering material benefits is not speech.
Look- I am uninterested in your dialectics. The fact is that the Israeli
government is actively persecuting Christians. And in so doing they have no
right to whine about alleged antisemitism.
>Stings like Hell to be shown to be wrong so often, doesn't it Bellinger!
You should know, Mathews. You have been wrong on every issue we have ever
discussed.
>
>> >Of course were Israel to take stronger measures to discourage
>proselytizing,
>> >even outlawing it, she would only be bringing herself more into line with
>> >many of her neighbors in the greater Middle East region.
>>
>> No, she would only be doing what they really want to do. There would not
>be
>> enough stones in Israel to assist in what they really would want to do to
>> Christians.
>Having been shown to be wrong about a law against proselytizing you now wish
>to suggest that Israeli's want to stone Christians?
I am not wrong about the anti-proselytizing law. Yes, I do wish to suggest
that some of them at least, would not be averse to the idea at all, were it not
for the fear of world censure. Fanatics come in every nation and race -
including Israel.
>
>> snip attempt to play equivalents
>
>Apparently Joe Bellinger is less interested in countries banning religious
>proselytizing than he is in falsely accusing Jews of doing so!
No false accusations have ever been made by me in regard to Jews. None. Ever.
Debunks
>From: "Philip Mathews" philip...@mediaone.net
>Date: 12/29/01 8:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <UIwX7.41205$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
Thank you.
>http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/12/28/News/News.40758.html
>
>Education Ministry suspends book-burning principal, teacher
>By Shoshana Kordova
>JERUSALEM (December 28) - The Education Ministry announced yesterday that it
>is temporarily suspending the teacher who publicly burned a copy of the New
>Testament and the principal who gave his approval.
>Rabbi Yair Bachar, principal of the Orot State Religious School in Beit
>Shemesh, and Ronen Tzarum, the sixth-grade teacher whose name the ministry
>released, will remain suspended until the national committee responsible for
>disciplinary action makes a final decision. Ministry spokeswoman
>Orit
>Reuveni gave no indication of when that would be.
If ever. Or what the punishment shall be, either, if any. I will be closely
following this story. I shall not allow it to fade into oblivion. Let us see
how sincere and determined the Israeli government is in preventing such
outrages in the future.
>
>The week before Hanukka, Tzaram discovered that one of his sixth-grade
>students had brought in a Hebrew copy of the New Testament, given to him by
>Christian missionaries. The teacher consulted with Bachar and, after
>receiving his approval, burned the
>book in the school courtyard.
How tolerant! What is it about the New testament which so offends and insults
the sensibilities of these people?
>The incident, reported first in The Jerusalem Post, made waves in the
>Knesset, with MK Ran Cohen (Meretz) saying he was "astounded" to read about
>the case in the Post and demanded that Education Minister Limor
>Livnat
>publish a formal announcement deploring the burning of other religions' holy
>books.
Cheers for Mr. Cohen!
>"I'm shocked by the fact that educators contribute to book-burning,
>especially when it comes to a religious book," said Education Ministry
>Director-General Ronit Tirosh in a written statement yesterday. "I am not
>prepared to accept an action like this for any reason. Actions like th
>s
>were done in the Dark Ages, and we will not allow them to be done today in
>our educational system, which teaches values, tolerance, and enlightenment."
I agree wholeheartedly, of course, but let's see where these admirable
resolutions lead in practice.
>The ministry has forbidden Orot representatives from speaking to the press
>until the matter is fully decided.
On the contrary. I think they SHOULD be allowed to have their say in full.
>Livnat had directed Tirosh to summon Bachar and Tzaram to a hearing, after
>which they were suspended.
>Several Beit Shemesh residents said they hope Bachar and Tzaram will not be
>compelled to leave the school, since school officials had expressed regret
>soon after the book-burning.
Book burning! I thought that was only done in Nazi Germany!
>"I think there's a world of difference between an apology that comes after
>the story's already broken in the paper and an apology that comes before
>that," said Ya'acov Har-Oz, whose son is in fourth grade at Orot. "In this
>case, the apology came before, so I
>think that's something the Ministry of
>Education needs to take into account."
What I want to know is, "who squealed?"
>The incident does not represent the attitude of the school in general, said
>Bar-Oz's wife, Tamar, a board member of Sha'alei Torah, the organization
>that administers Orot. The school was established as a way of raising the
>level of secular and religious education in what had been a development
>town, she said
Looks like they have failed somewhere along the line, then.
> The open attitude may be indicated in part by the mix of the
>student body - about 60 percent Anglo and 40% Russian and Ethiopian
>immigrants and mostly Sephardi sabras.
>The school "explicitly stands for tolerance and love of the Jewish people,
Nothing wrong in that, but when it leads to persecution and intolerance toward
those outside of the "race" then it becomes problematic.
>and not for any of the things that were reflected in this one unreflective
>incident," said Tamar Bar-Oz. "This was an unrepresentative event."
So she says. We will never know for certain.
>By the time they found out about the incident, Bachar had already performed
>a short skit in school with the message that any student who finds
>missionary material should quietly dispose of it and that they should be
>tolerant of other religions, said Tamar Bar-Oz.
Dispose of it in what way?
>I just wish we could put this matter to rest without ruining these poor
>guys' careers, and I think it may be too late for that," she said.
>
Well, I am not for seeing people's lives ruined over one mistake, but we do not
know what these people are teaching those children who attend the Schul.
>Several people said the focus of the incident should not be on the burning
>of the New Testament or on the educators responsible for it, but on the
>proselytizing that led a student to bring the book to class.
The focus should be on both, as I see it. It may be part of a much deeper
problem.
>"The key is not New Testament-burning, it's the missionary problem," said
>Mark Powers, international director of Jews for Judaism, a
>counter-missionary organization.
Interesting viewpoint.
>Powers, who is visiting from the US, will
>be speaking in Beit Shemesh Sunday night. He was asked to speak there last
>week, before news of the book-burning became public, he said.
>The number of Hebrew-Christian groups in the country has increased over the
>last six or seven years from about 30 to more than 100, said Powers.
So? Is not freedom of religion a basic democratic right?
>He
>estimates that between 8,000 and 12,000 people belong to these groups,
>although he doesn't know how many Jews they approached or converted.
>
Again...so what? This man apparently believes the State has the right to
interfere with a citizen's religious beliefs.
>Beit Shemesh Mayor Daniel Vaknin maintained missionary activity is not a
>major problem in the city and said he does not intend to take any steps to
>curtail it.
Good.
>"I don't see some established [missionary] institution in action in my city,
>and even if there are exceptional instances here and there, there's
>certainly no need to fight them with tanks," he said. "You don't have to
>bring in tanks for a fly."
Well, how does he intend to "fight" them? And why should they be fought
against at all?
>Miriam Porat, principal of the town's Menachem Begin Elementary School, said
>she has not seen the effects of missionary activity in the secular school.
>If a student were to bring in missionary materials, Porat said she would
>either ask him to put it in his bag or
>would begin a discussion to help the
>students understand the situation.
>
And what would that discussion entail, I wonder?
>But several students at Orot said they had been approached by missionaries,
>after Bachar initiated discussions about missionary activity, said Sha'alei
>Torah spokeswoman Jordana Klein. One sixth-grade boy said missionaries had
>hung a crucifix behind the mezuza
>of his house, she said.
>
>Proselytizing minors is a crime.
>
And there we have it.
>The missionaries have been targeting the poorer section of Beit Shemesh,
>said Klein, rather than the wealthier, newer sections.
>That pattern is typical all over the country, said Powers. "If you're going
>to look for someone to go after, you're going to go after someone who's more
>vulnerable," he said
Vulnerable? What an odd choice of words.
>Some Christian aid organizations add a dose of their
>religion to the material support they provide to Jews in need, he said.
So what?
>Telling others about Jesus is one of the goals of some Christian
>organizations, said the Rev. Ray Lockhart, director of the Jerusalem-based
>Israel Trust of the Anglican Church, which ministers to the Jews. "The
>church is by definition a missionary organization," he said. "We want to
>share with other people something of the reality of what we have discovered
>for ourselves."
>But burning Christian scriptures is not the way to combat missionary
>activities, said Powers. "Letting the Jewish community know who these people
>are, what they're saying, and what's wrong with what they're saying, that's
>the way to deal with it."
Well, I would be most interested in hearing what is "wrong" with what they are
saying, according to Mr. Powers.
Thank you for having the honesty and decency to post this in full, Mr Mathews.
Debunks
>Date: 12/29/01 9:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <9q6t2u02pg9k2o4n5...@4ax.com>
Me, myself and I. Other people who post in the group. I feel the way you
portray yourself goes right to the heart of why you post here and why you say
the things you do.
>>Now, answer
>>the question:
>
>Told you before, you pathetic little fuehrer-wannabe,
Adulation will get you nowhere. You may find the Fuehrer to be a model worth
emulating, but kindly do not pass your fantasies on to me.
>I don't take
>orders from anyone, least of all a Jew-hating Nazi apologist like you
Words of love...so soft and tender...." Who wrote that song anyway?
>> Are you saying the report is a lie? Yes or no?
>The body of the report is correct. As noted originally, however, the
>final paragraph, which reads:
Need I inform you that Mr. Mathews was honest enough to just post a
confirmation of the fact that:
><quote>
>
>Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel.
Did you see it yet? Keep looking. I do believe you owe me an apology which
will never be forthcoming.
>/quote>
>
>is utterly without foundation and is _not_ correct
You are wrong, Ms Ostrov. Will you admit your error and apologize?
> Furthermore, I
>don't care how many of Bradbury's incoherent rants (or your own) you
>choose to believe because they fit with your hate-filled agenda, it
>will never change the fact that proselytizing is not a criminal
>offense in Israel.
I have no hate-filled agenda, unlike you.
>
>Clearly, as Mr. Mathews has noted elsewhere in this thread, Joe
>Bellinger is far less interested in countries which actually *do*
>prohibit Christian proselytization than he is of falsely accusing Jews
>of doing so.
Clearly you have not yet read Mr. Mathew's most recent post which confirms the
fact.
Most likely you have just read it as I write these words. Let's see what you
do now.
Call another name and run?
SW
---
Joe Bellinger is a mastur (Jew)baiter
sw
>
>
>
>
SW
---
Joe Bellinger is a cowardly little Nazoid rat and liar.
sw
SW
---
Joe Bellinger - working 24/7 to resurrect the 3rd Reich
sw
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
SW
---
Joe McLies: Over 3,000,000,000 Told
sw
Patrick Keenan
> >Subject: Re: Bellinger Correct
> >From: "Philip Mathews" philip...@mediaone.net
> >Date: 12/29/01 8:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <UIwX7.41205$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
> >Several Beit Shemesh residents said they hope Bachar and Tzaram will not
be
> >compelled to leave the school, since school officials had expressed
regret
> >soon after the book-burning.
>
> Book burning! I thought that was only done in Nazi Germany!
No, it's also been done in the USA. Wilhelm Reich's books were burned at
the order of the Food and Drug administration:
http://www.orgonelab.org/fda.htm
Pope Innocent II had Abelard's books burned;
Apparently Alexander of Hales urged that the Talmud be burned, and "in 1242
perhaps 10,000 copies of the Talmud carried in twenty-four wagon loads, were
burned at the stake" in Paris.
http://www.ukans.edu/~medieval/melcher/matthias/old/log.started940611/mail-1
14.html
And in England, William Tyndale's English translation of the New Testament
was burned, as was he:
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/bookarts/1997/04/msg0030
4.html
And is apparently approved of in Acts 19:18-20:
http://www.voy.com/10734/2567.html
Of course, Salman Rushdie's books were burned, including in the UK:
http://www.thisisbradford.co.uk/archive/2000/10/27/brad_news12.int.html
There is a report, denied by the Patriarch, of heretical books being burned
in Yekaterinburg:
http://www.ripnet.org/besieged/deinies.htm
Muslim books have been burned, causing some unrest, in Kashmir:
http://asia.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/16/Kashmir.leader.detained/i
ndex.html
And as performance art at the Burning Man:
http://www.artcars.com/burningman/book.html
Revisionist books have been burned in France:
http://www.codoh.com/newsdesk/960629.HTML
And lest we forget, the library at Alexandria was burned...
So no, it's actually got a fairly wide and long history, and the Nazis had
no monopoly on it.
-pk
<snip>
Hilary Ostrov
<20011230004223...@mb-ca.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote:
Which just proves my point. When you attempt to put words in my mouth
that I have not uttered you make yourself a fool thrice over.
[...]
>>> Are you saying the report is a lie? Yes or no?
>
>>The body of the report is correct. As noted originally, however, the
>>final paragraph, which reads:
>
>Need I inform you that Mr. Mathews was honest enough to just post a
>confirmation of the fact that:
>><quote>
>>
>>Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel.
>
>Did you see it yet? Keep looking. I do believe you owe me an apology which
>will never be forthcoming.
Either you are lying through your teeth - again - or your reading
comprehension skills are even less adequate than you have so often
demonstrated. You may take your pick. The material that Mr. Mathews
posted does not in any way, shape, or form indicate that
"proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel".
>
>>/quote>
>>
>>is utterly without foundation and is _not_ correct
>
>You are wrong, Ms Ostrov. Will you admit your error and apologize?
If I were wrong, I would apologize. However, until you can provide
some credible evidence (which excludes, inter alia, your say so, and
Bradbury's) that I am, the fact remains that your claim was wrong
when you first made it, and it is still wrong.
[...]
>>Clearly, as Mr. Mathews has noted elsewhere in this thread, Joe
>>Bellinger is far less interested in countries which actually *do*
>>prohibit Christian proselytization than he is of falsely accusing Jews
>>of doing so.
[...]
Debunks
>From: "Patrick Keenan" pkee...@hotmail.com
>Date: 12/29/01 10:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <vNyX7.18100$LK2.3...@news20.bellglobal.com>
Thank you, Mr. Keenan, but I already knew most of that...the remark was
deliberate satire which apparently went over your head.
Debunks
>Date: 12/29/01 10:12 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <0fyX7.303876$ez.43...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com>
snip
Your posts, as usual, are being ignored. I have no idea what you wrote here or
anywhere else, but I am confident that whatever it is, it is a complete waste
of time.
Debunks
>Date: 12/29/01 10:57 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <modt2uchq6vjh7n7e...@4ax.com>
LOL! Hypocrisy-thy name is Ostrov. Let me worry about whether I am making a
fool out of myself. You seem to be much more concerned with the image I
project rather than your own.
>[...]
>
>>>> Are you saying the report is a lie? Yes or no?
>>
>>>The body of the report is correct. As noted originally, however, the
>>>final paragraph, which reads:
>
>>Need I inform you that Mr. Mathews was honest enough to just post a
>>confirmation of the fact that:
>
>>><quote>
>>>
>>>Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel.
>>Did you see it yet? Keep looking. I do believe you owe me an apology which
>>will never be forthcoming.
>
>Either you are lying through your teeth - again - or your reading
>comprehension skills are even less adequate than you have so often
>demonstrated. You may take your pick. The material that Mr. Mathews
>posted does not in any way, shape, or form indicate that
>"proselytizing children is a criminal
>offense in Israel".
LOL! Go back and read it again. Or better yet, ask Mathews.
Debunks
>some credible evidence (which
Mr. Mathews provided it. Now ask him what he posted yesterday. I await your
apology.
sw
Yes, Bellingoebbels, they're being ignored just like they were when you
'killfiled' me. You read every single one; you can't help yourself.
Psychotics are like that.
sw
---
Not in Bellingoebbels killfile. Never was.
Hilary Ostrov
<20011230141343...@mb-mh.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote:
I just saw the article from the Jerusalem Post that Mr. Mathews posted
and it also includes the same information. So I do apologize, Joe.
The article doesn't actually cite the law, though; nor does it
indicate either what the penalty might be or what steps (if any) have
been taken to apprehend the perpetrator(s) in this instance.
Nor does it support your *original* contention - which was to the
effect that proselytization of *anyone* in Israel is subject to a term
of 5 years imprisonment (a claim which had morphed from your earlier
unsupported contention that it applied to "anyone who preaches
Christianity in Israel").
Given the history of cases such as Edgardo Mortara, and other secret
and forced baptisms - as well as of sermons that Jews in Italy were
forced to attend (a practice reinstituted in the 1840's by Pope
Gregory XVI) "or pay a heavy fine with a third of the fine going to
the 'secret informer' who reported the delinquent to the
authorities"[1] - that Israel should have a law prohibiting the
proselytization of children is somewhat understandable.
[1] _The Popes Against the Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of
Modern Anti-Semitism_, David I. Kertzer (Knopf, 2001) pp. 84-85
Ewan J.
So here we have Ostrov *pretending* to apologise. She basically
acknowledges she was 100% wrong, and then retracts her apology
with her usual convoluted obnoxiousness.
EJ
--
Latest films I've seen (Rated out of 5 stars)
"Lord of the Rings" ***
========================
Amazing special effects, but lacks the warmth of
Harry Potter
"Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone": ****
================================================
I hadn't had such a good time since the pigs ate my sister.
"Zoolander": 1/2
=================
A turkey just in time for Christmas. Actors involved
should sack their managers for sticking them in this
career-crusher.
Debunks
>From: Hilary Ostrov hos...@telus.net
>Date: 12/30/01 3:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <h34v2u4gqgbodei0v...@4ax.com>
>
>On 30 Dec 2001 19:13:43 GMT, in
><20011230141343...@mb-mh.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
>(Debunks) wrote:
>
>>>If I were wrong, I would apologize. However, until you can provide
>>>some credible evidence (which
>>
>>Mr. Mathews provided it. Now ask him what he posted yesterday. I await
>your
>>apology.
>
>I just saw the article from the Jerusalem Post that Mr. Mathews posted
>and it also includes the same information. So I do apologize, Joe.
>
OK then.
>The article doesn't actually cite the law, though;
No, it doesn't.
>nor does it
>indicate either what the penalty might be or what steps (if any) have
>been taken to apprehend the perpetrator(s) in this instance.
>
Again, it does not. If you uncover additional information, please post and
draw to my attention.
>Nor does it support your *original* contention - which was to the
>effect that proselytization of *anyone* in Israel is subject to a term
>of 5 years imprisonment (a claim which had morphed from your earlier
That is because these are two separate laws. The one you refer to above was
enacted in 1977 and is also very much a fact.
>unsupported contention that it applied to "anyone who preaches
>Christianity in Israel").
Proselytizes might be a better term. Why don't you try and contact David Stern
(think his first name is either David or Daniel) and ask him how these laws
have affected his right to worship freely in Israel?
>Given the history of cases such as Edgardo Mortara, and other secret
>and forced baptisms
How can a baptism be "secretly forced?" The Church does not compel anyone to
be baptized against their will.
>s well as of sermons that Jews in Italy were
>forced to attend (a practice reinstituted in the 1840's by Pope
>Gregory XVI)
What was the reason for the alleged forced attendance?
>"or pay a heavy fine with a third of the fine going to
>the 'secret informer' who reported the delinquent to the
>authorities"[1
There must be much more to the story than what you have posted.
> that Israel should have a law prohibiting the
>proselytization of children is somewhat understandable.
Oh, so did the people involved in burning the New Testament state that the
reason they burned it was because of these alleged incidents in Italy in the
1800's? Do post the information for THAT, won't you?
>
>[1] _The Popes Against the Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of
>Modern Anti-Semitism_, David I. Kertzer (Knopf, 2001) pp. 84-85
>
>hro
I have yet to see anything from this book which you have posted which is not
highly colored or distorted or generalized. You will have to do much better
than this.
PS: I just placed a request for this book from the public library. Will keep
you informed as to when it arrives. I am most eager to read this book and
address its claims.
Hilary Ostrov
<20011230214744...@mb-mp.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote:
No, it is not a fact. It wasn't a "fact" the first time you tried to
flog it, and it still isn't. [see
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=%3C37422ba...@news.uniserve.com%3E&hl=en]
>>unsupported contention that it applied to "anyone who preaches
>>Christianity in Israel").
>
>Proselytizes might be a better term. Why don't you try and contact David Stern
>(think his first name is either David or Daniel) and ask him how these laws
>have affected his right to worship freely in Israel?
I have no interest in tracking down an individual whose religious
beliefs dictate that he should be attempting to proselytize Jewish
people, and whose name you cannot even correctly recall.
>>Given the history of cases such as Edgardo Mortara, and other secret
>>and forced baptisms
>
>How can a baptism be "secretly forced?"
Some were secret (e.g. Mortara) and others were forced (from note 28,
p. 304):
<quote>
Of the twenty-five adults forced by police into the [Catechumens in
mid-1814 through 1824], all were women, for the Church required Jewish
husbands [who freely entered] to offer their wives, but wives could
not offer their husbands.
[...] every one of the twenty-seven children under age ten brought by
the police to the Catechumens was baptized.
</quote>
>The Church does not compel anyone to
>be baptized against their will.
Now it doesn't, I agree. But in the past it did.
>>s well as of sermons that Jews in Italy were
>>forced to attend (a practice reinstituted in the 1840's by Pope
>>Gregory XVI)
>
>What was the reason for the alleged forced attendance?
It wasn't "alleged" it was forced. Mind you, there were times of
"leniency" (p. 85):
<quote>
In enforcing attendance at the sermons, the cardinal vicar realized
that he risked triggering public disorders. The problem here was not
the Jews themselves, who, while angered and humiliated at the forced
sermons, were too cowed to rebel against it. The problem lay with
Rome's popolani (the lower classes), who for as long as anyone could
remember had delighted in taunting the Jews as they marched out of the
ghetto to the church. To minimize the possibility of any unseemly
displays, the cardinal issued an order listing the occasions on which
the forced sermons should be suspended. These included all those
times following the death of a pope, and before the election of his
successo--a period historically known for public disorders--"to remove
any molestation or hindrance with which the Christians might subject
them." More surprising, at least from a meteorological perspective, w
as the exemption that he ordered for "all those Saturdays when it
snows, and those when there is any snow on the ground." He explained
that the motive for this (presumably rarely invoked) dispensation was
"to avoid the problems and harassment caused by the Christians, who
throw snowballs at them."
<quote>
>>"or pay a heavy fine with a third of the fine going to
>>the 'secret informer' who reported the delinquent to the
>
>>authorities"[1
>
>There must be much more to the story than what you have posted.
Of course, there's lots more. And you can read all about it when you
read the book.
>> that Israel should have a law prohibiting the
>>proselytization of children is somewhat understandable.
>
>Oh, so did the people involved in burning the New Testament state that the
>reason they burned it was because of these alleged incidents in Italy in the
>1800's? Do post the information for THAT, won't you?
Do try to stick to the subject. We were not discussing the burning -
for which those responsible have apologized, in case you have
forgotten. We are discussing the law prohibiting the proselytization
of children in Israel.
>>[1] _The Popes Against the Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of
>>Modern Anti-Semitism_, David I. Kertzer (Knopf, 2001) pp. 84-85
>I have yet to see anything from this book which you have posted which is not
>highly colored or distorted or generalized. You will have to do much better
>than this.
That's your ill-informed opinion, as usual. And no one, least of all
me, will gainsay you the right to hold it. Unfortunately for you,
though, the facts do not support your opinion.
>
>PS: I just placed a request for this book from the public library. Will keep
>you informed as to when it arrives. I am most eager to read this book and
>address its claims.
Not much for you to address. Facts are facts. But it will be
interesting to watch you attempt to discuss them.
Debunks
>From: Hilary Ostrov hos...@telus.net
>Date: 12/30/01 10:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <rgov2u82opplkuomq...@4ax.com>
I am not going through this with you again, Hilary. It IS a fact. And I have
posted numerous sources which validate it.
>>>unsupported contention that it applied to "anyone who preaches
>>>Christianity in Israel").
>>
>>Proselytizes might be a better term. Why don't you try and contact David
>Stern
>>(think his first name is either David or Daniel) and ask him how these laws
>>have affected his right to worship freely in Israel?
>I have no interest in tracking down an individual whose religious
>beliefs dictate that he should be attempting to proselytize Jewish
>people, and whose name you cannot even correctly recall.
The purpose of contacting him is not to be given a lecture on his "religious
beliefs" but to inform you of how he and other Messianic Jews are treated in
Israel. But you knew that. And his name is Dr. Daniel Stern.
>>>Given the history of cases such as Edgardo Mortara, and other secret
>>>and forced baptisms
>>
>>How can a baptism be "secretly forced?"
>Some were secret (e.g. Mortara) and others were forced (from note 28,
>p. 304):
>
I repeat: The Church does not FORCE baptism on anyone. And this "secret"
business is as ludicrous as the "secret" meeting of the Elders of Zion.
><quote>
>
>Of the twenty-five adults forced by police into the [Catechumens in
>mid-1814 through 1824], all were women, for the Church required Jewish
>husbands [who freely entered] to offer their wives, but wives could
>not offer their husbands.
Forced by police? Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that the Vatican
does not issue orders to the police.
>[...] every one of the twenty-seven children under age ten brought by
>the police to the Catechumens was baptized.
>
></quote>
Again, there is something serious amiss with this excerpted account.
>
>>The Church does not compel anyone to
>>be baptized against their will.
>
>Now it doesn't, I agree. But in the past it did.
It never has.
>>>s well as of sermons that Jews in Italy were
>>>forced to attend (a practice reinstituted in the 1840's by Pope
>>>Gregory XVI)
>>
>>What was the reason for the alleged forced attendance?
>It wasn't "alleged" it was forced. Mind you, there were times of
>"leniency" (p. 85):
>
Your opinion on this matter does not interest me, Hilary. Until you prove
otherwise, it remains alleged.
><quote>
>In enforcing attendance at the sermons, the cardinal vicar realized
>that he risked triggering public disorders. The problem here was not
>the Jews themselves, who, while angered and humiliated at the forced
>sermons, were too cowed to rebel
>against it. The problem lay with
>Rome's popolani (the lower classes), who for as long as anyone could
>remember had delighted in taunting the Jews as they marched out of the
>ghetto to the church. To minimize the possibility of any unseemly
>displays, the cardinal issued an
>order listing the occasions on which
>the forced sermons should be suspended. These included all those
>times following the death of a pope, and before the election of his
>successo--a period historically known for public disorders--"to
>remove
>any molestation or hindrance with which the Christians might subject
>them." More surprising, at least from a meteorological perspective, w
>as the exemption that he ordered for "all those Saturdays when it
>snows, and those when there is any snow on the ground." He
>explained
>that the motive for this (presumably rarely invoked) dispensation was
>"to avoid the problems and harassment caused by the Christians, who
>throw snowballs at them."
><quote>
LOL! What utterly depraved nonsense!
There are, of course, ignorant people among Christians as there are among Jews
and every other religion. The point is that the Church and the Popes did not
ever approve of such actions.
>>>"or pay a heavy fine with a third of the fine going to
>>>the 'secret informer' who reported the delinquent to the
>>
>>>authorities"[1
>>
>>There must be much more to the story than what you have posted.
>
>
>Of course, there's lots more. And you can read all about it when you
>read the book.
Indeed I shall. If it is what I expect it to be, I will keep a barf bag on
hand.
>>> that Israel should have a law prohibiting the
>>>proselytization of children is somewhat understandable.
>Oh, so did the people involved in burning the New Testament state that the
>>reason they burned it was because of these alleged incidents in Italy in the
>>1800's? Do post the information for THAT, won't you?
>Do try to stick to the subject.
If YOU had stuck to the subject, Ms Ostrov, we would not be going through this
right now.
>We were not discussing the burning -
>for which those responsible have apologized, in case you have
>forgotten
Apologies are frequently insincere. Take yours, for instance.
> We are discussing the law prohibiting the proselytization
>of children in Israel.
It seems we are discussing a number of items here, since you sought to divert
from the issue at hand with irrelevancies.
>
>>>[1] _The Popes Against the Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of
>>>Modern Anti-Semitism_, David I. Kertzer (Knopf, 2001) pp. 84-85
>
>I have yet to see anything from this book which you have posted which is not
>>highly colored or distorted or generalized. You will have to do much better
>>than this.
>
>That's your ill-informed opinion, as usual
If it is ill-informed, you can blame yourself for posting such sloppy excerpts.
>And no one, least of all
>me, will gainsay you the right to hold it. Unfortunately for you,
>though, the facts do not support your opinion.
>
So you keep saying, but you never seem to get around to posting them.
>PS: I just placed a request for this book from the public library. Will
>keep
>>you informed as to when it arrives. I am most eager to read this book and
>>address its claims.
>Not much for you to address. Facts are facts
When will you post some? All I have seen to date are silly and rather
grotesque distortions and vapid generalizations.
> But it will be
>interesting to watch you attempt to discuss them.
>
>hro
I assure you that I shall indeed address them far more proficiently than you.
Hilary Ostrov
<20011231020548...@mb-mp.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote:
>>From: Hilary Ostrov hos...@telus.net
>>Date: 12/30/01 10:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: <rgov2u82opplkuomq...@4ax.com>
>>
>>On 31 Dec 2001 02:47:44 GMT, in
>><20011230214744...@mb-mp.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
>>(Debunks) wrote:
>>
>>>>From: Hilary Ostrov hos...@telus.net
>>>>Date: 12/30/01 3:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>>Message-id: <h34v2u4gqgbodei0v...@4ax.com>
[...]
>>>>Nor does it support your *original* contention - which was to the
>>>>effect that proselytization of *anyone* in Israel is subject to a term
>>>>of 5 years imprisonment (a claim which had morphed from your earlier
>>>
>>>That is because these are two separate laws. The one you refer to above was
>>>enacted in 1977 and is also very much a fact.
>>
>>No, it is not a fact. It wasn't a "fact" the first time you tried to
>>flog it, and it still isn't.
>
>I am not going through this with you again, Hilary. It IS a fact. And I have
>posted numerous sources which validate it.
I don't expect you to "go through this again". But it is NOT a fact.
You have posted nothing which would validate it - which is probably
why you snipped and ran from the evidence I provided:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=%3C37422ba...@news.uniserve.com%3E&hl=en
[...]
>>>>Given the history of cases such as Edgardo Mortara, and other secret
>>>>and forced baptisms
>>>
>>>How can a baptism be "secretly forced?"
>
>>Some were secret (e.g. Mortara) and others were forced (from note 28,
>>p. 304):
>>
>
>I repeat: The Church does not FORCE baptism on anyone. And this "secret"
>business is as ludicrous as the "secret" meeting of the Elders of Zion.
And I repeat. Now the Church does not. But it did. It also promoted
the "truth" of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
>
>><quote>
>>
>>Of the twenty-five adults forced by police into the [Catechumens in
>>mid-1814 through 1824], all were women, for the Church required Jewish
>>husbands [who freely entered] to offer their wives, but wives could
>>not offer their husbands.
>
>Forced by police? Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that the Vatican
>does not issue orders to the police.
Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that in the 1800's it did.
>>[...] every one of the twenty-seven children under age ten brought by
>>the police to the Catechumens was baptized.
>>
>></quote>
>
>Again, there is something serious amiss with this excerpted account.
Nothing amiss with the account. But there is much amiss with the
deeds.
>>>The Church does not compel anyone to
>>>be baptized against their will.
>>
>>Now it doesn't, I agree. But in the past it did.
>
>It never has.
Yes it has.
>>>>s well as of sermons that Jews in Italy were
>>>>forced to attend (a practice reinstituted in the 1840's by Pope
>>>>Gregory XVI)
>>>
>>>What was the reason for the alleged forced attendance?
>
>>It wasn't "alleged" it was forced. Mind you, there were times of
>>"leniency" (p. 85):
>>
>
>Your opinion on this matter does not interest me, Hilary.
I'm quite sure it doesn't. But perhaps the opinion of Richard Lebrun,
who reviewed Kertzer's book (as well as Carroll's _Constantine's
Sword_) for H-Catholic, will hold more weight:
<quote>
[...]
David Kertzer's book argues the tough and controversial position that
the teachings and actions of the Church, including those of the popes
themselves, for the better part of a century and a half, from the fall
of Napoleon to the rise of Hitler, not only failed to combat
antisemitism, but actively and purposely contributed to it, lent it
authority, and honored some of its most active purveyors, and thus
shares responsibility for making the Holocaust possible. However, in
contrast to Carroll, Kertzer's declared agenda is limited to
achieving, in his own words, "a clearer understanding of the past" (p.
21). He sees himself as working entirely in line with Pope John Paul's
"call for the Catholic world to confront its past with clear eyes" (p.
21), and his stated hope is that by contributing to a better
understanding of the past his book will contribute to a brighter
future. In the pope's most recent call for honesty about the past, in
a message to the participants of an international conference
commemorating the fourth centenary of the Matteo Ricci's arrival in
Bejing, he repeated a point he has voiced many times in his
pontificate: "The Church must not be afraid of historical truth and
she is ready--with deeply-felt pain--to admit the responsibility of
her children. ... Historical truth must be sought severely, with
impartiality and in its entirety" [5]. From what he writes in this
book and from what he has subsequently stated in interviews, it seems
evident that David Kertzer sees himself as engaged in precisely this
kind of search for "historical truth."
Partly because of his reputation as a sound historian of modern Italy
and partly because of an appreciative article that he had written for
The New York Times in February 1998 following Cardinal Ratzinger's
announcement that the archives of the Roman Inquisition would now be
open to scholars, Kertzer was among the small number of researchers
who gained early access to this treasure trove of documents. In
addition to the archives of the Inquisition (only opened for materials
up to 1900), he also consulted seven other Vatican archives, French
archives, a very large sampling of Catholic periodical literature from
the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, and much of the enormous mass
of secondary literature that has been generated around the issue of
modern antisemitism. From these materials he has constructed a
vigorous case against the distinction that the Vatican and its
defenders have been making in recent years between religious
antisemitism, which the Church acknowledges to have characterized its
past, and social, economic, and racial antisemitism, which it is
claimed the Church never advocated.
The first and most persuasive part of Kertzer's study (based on the
archives of the Inquisition) examines how nineteenth-century popes,
restored as monarchs of the Papal States in 1814, treated Jews
resident in their own domains. For Jews, one extremely important
consequence of the French Revolution was their emancipation from
centuries old restrictions on places of residence (ghettos) and
occupation. Conquest by the armies of Revolutionary France and then
Napoleon had brought emancipation to the Jews of the Papal States and
Rome itself. The language that the Vatican's "We Remember" statement
uses to describe these developments is curiously disingenuous, to say
the least. The Commission writes: "By the end of the 18th century and
the beginning of the 19th century, Jews generally had achieved an
equal standing with other citizens in most States and a certain number
of them held influential positions in society" (cited, p. 6). No
mention is made of the fact that these developments embodied the
political ideas of the Enlightenment and the legislation of the French
Revolution. As Kertzer pertinently observes, "If Jews acquired equal
rights in Europe in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, it was
only over the angry, loud, and indeed indignant protests of the
Vatican and the Church" (p. 6).
In 1814, despite contrary advice from his highly capable secretary of
state Cardinal Consalvi, who realized that times had changed and that
reintroducing all the old restrictions at a time when both the
American and French revolutions had proclaimed the equality of all
citizens would give ammunition to those who argued that the papacy was
a hopelessly anachronistic medieval relic, Pope Pius VII chose instead
to listen to hard line zelanti among the college of cardinals, who
were adamantly opposed to everything associated with the French
Revolution and wanted a complete restoration of the old regime. The
gates of Rome's ghettos were again closed in 1814 and most of the old
prescriptions with respect to occupation, travel, distinct garb, and
employment of Christian servants were reimposed. Except for a
relatively brief period during 1848, when Pope Pius IX was chased from
the city by temporarily successful revolutionaries, Rome's Jews
remained enclosed in their cramped and squalid ghetto until 1870, when
invading Italian troops finally brought a permanent end to the papal
state.
One of the restored old regime institutions most hated by Rome's Jews
was the House of the Catechumens, which operated under the revived
Inquisition. It was a place where Jews who sought to escape the ghetto
by conversion to Catholicism were housed and instructed in their new
faith. What was particularly galling was that as soon as a Jewish male
signed up in this institution, Roman police immediately apprehended
his wife and children, locked them up, and tried to persuade the wife
to follow her husband's example. Swaying her decision was the fact
that the children were immediately baptised. Since the law in the
Papal States prohibited Jews from raising Christian children, if the
wife refused conversion and decided to return to the ghetto (after
weeks of indoctrination), she understood that this meant giving up her
children. Another consequence of this same law was that in cases where
a Jewish infant was baptised by a Christian servant (who thereby hoped
to save the immortal soul of a gravely sick infant), such children
were forcibly removed from their parents' custody and raised as
Catholics. Perhaps the most famous such incident was the kidnapping of
six-year old Edgardo Mortara from his parental home in Bologna in 1858
under the direct orders of Pius IX.[6] Despite an international outcry
and strong diplomatic pressure from Napoleon III (whose troops were
defending Rome against Italian nationalists), Pius IX refused to
deviate from what he saw as his duty of raising Edgardo as a Catholic,
which the pope believed he was because he had been baptised as a baby
by an illiterate teenage servant girl.
The rationale behind the ghetto was that good Christians had to be
protected from contaminating contact with Jews, and the rationale
behind most of the other restrictive laws was that Jews would thereby
be persuaded to convert and thus save their souls. Kerzer's narration
and documentation of such incidents demonstrates that though the popes
generally from the middle ages on had had a good reputation for
defending Europe's Jews from the worst kinds of anti-Jewish rhetoric
and violence, the popes of the nineteenth century, in large part in
reaction to the perceived evils of the French Revolution and its
supposedly dangerous ideas about equal rights for all, endeavored as
long as they retained temporal power to "keep the Jews in their
place."
Conservative Catholic paranoia about the modern world springing from
the Enlightenment and the French Revolution is also the context for
Kertzer's next block of evidence, which concerns the witness of the
Catholic press from the latter decades of the nineteenth century well
into the 1930s. Citing extensively from the periodicals directly under
the pope's authority and supervision, the Vatican daily L'Osservatore
romano and the Jesuit biweekly Civilt cattolica, La Croix (the daily
published by the French Assumptionists that figured so importantly in
the antisemitic campaign against Captain Alfred Dreyfus), other
Catholic periodicals, and from the works of authors such as the
notorious Eduoard Drumont and the French priest Ernest Jouin, Kertzer
shows how the Church played an important role in promulgating the
component ideas associated with modern antisemitism. Here is Kertzer's
list of these ideas:
"There is a secret Jewish conspiracy; the Jews seek to conquer the
world; Jews are an evil sect who seek to do Christians harm; Jews are
by nature immoral; Jews care only for money and will do anything to
get it; Jews control the press; Jews control banks and are responsible
for the economic ruination of untold numbers of Christian families;
Jews are responsible for communism, Judaism commands its adherents to
murder defenseless Christian children and drink their blood; Jews seek
to destroy the Christian religion; Jews are unpatriotic, ever ready to
sell their country out to the enemy; for the larger society to be
properly protected, Jews must be segregated and their rights limited"
(p. 206).
Every one of these ideas, Kertzer charges, "had the support of the
highest Church authorities, including the pope," (p. 206) so that even
if this list does not include one of the defining ideas of modern
antisemitism, the notion that Jews constitute a separate and inferior
race, this hardly excuses the Church from responsibility for the
flowering of modern antisemitism. In fact, as Kertzer notes, the
notion of biological taint was not absent from the history in the
Church. He cites the Spanish laws dating from the sixteenth century
banning Christians descended from Jews from various offices in the
state and the church, and the Jesuit rule forbidding admission of men
of Jewish origin, calculating ancestry to the fifth generation, a rule
in force from 1592 to 1946. Moreover, Kertzer also finds some evidence
of racism in the Catholic antisemitic literature discussed above. In
early 1898, for example, L'Osservatore romano in a lament about the
emancipation of the Jews having brought untold suffering to the
Christian world, wrote of the Jew "abandoning himself recklessly and
heedlessly to that innate passion of his race, which is essentially
usurious and pushy" (cited, p. 212).
Kerzer offers disturbing evidence that not only did the papacy
encourage and support antisemitic writings, it also supported
antisemitic political movements. The prime example here is covert
support for over a decade by Pope Leo XIII and his secretary of state,
as revealed in their diplomatic correspondence in the Vatican
archives, of the Austrian Christian Social party and its leader Karl
Lueger, despite warnings from the Austrian Church hierarchy to
distance the Church from Lueger (whom the nuncio in Vienna regarded as
a dangerous demagogue) and his antisemitic campaign.
[...]
</quote>
Richard Lebrun. "Review of David I. Kertzer, The Popes Against the
Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism,"
H-Catholic, H-Net Reviews, November, 2001. URL:
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=279061007581822.
[...]
Debunks
>Date: 12/31/01 1:43 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <sqa03ug8bfrqvtklg...@4ax.com>
Like I said, I am NOT going through this again. It is TRUE and FACTUAL and I
have posted at least four alternate sources in the past which all prove it to
be so.
>>>>>Given the history of cases such as Edgardo Mortara, and other secret
>>>>>and forced baptisms
>>>>
>>>>How can a baptism be "secretly forced?"
>>
>>Some were secret (e.g. Mortara) and others were forced (from note 28,
>>>p. 304):
>>>
>>
>>I repeat: The Church does not FORCE baptism on anyone. And this "secret"
>>business is as ludicrous as the "secret" meeting of the Elders of Zion.
>
>And I repeat. Now the Church does not. But it did. It also promoted
>the "truth" of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
AND I repeat that the Church has NEVER attempted to force baptism on Jews or
anyone else. Nor has "the Church" or "the Popes" promoted the Protocols. This
is what happens when you rely upon Jewish bigots for your information, Ms
Ostrov...but I have the distinct impression that this is exactly the sort of
rot you are accustomed to look for in your endeavors to attack Christianity.
>>><quote>
>>>
>>>Of the twenty-five adults forced by police into the [Catechumens in
>>>mid-1814 through 1824], all were women, for the Church required Jewish
>>>husbands [who freely entered] to offer their wives, but wives could
>>>not offer their husbands.
>>
>>Forced by police? Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that the
>Vatican
>>does not issue orders to the police.
>Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that in the 1800's it did.
That is utter ROT. The Vatican does not and never has issued orders to the
police.
>
>>>[...] every one of the twenty-seven children under age ten brought by
>>>the police to the Catechumens was baptized.
>>>
>>></quote>
>>Again, there is something seriously amiss with this excerpted account.
>
>Nothing amiss with the account. But there is much amiss with the
>deeds.
There is something seriously amiss with someone who would rely on an ignorant
Jewish bigot for their information, too.
From what you have posted, the man who authored this book is an ignoramous, who
doesn't understand anything about the Catholic Church.
>>>The Church does not compel anyone to
>>>>be baptized against their will.
>>>
>>>Now it doesn't, I agree. But in the past it did.
>>
>>It never has.
>
>Yes it has.
Your opinion on this matter is equal to squat. It never has.
>>>>>s well as of sermons that Jews in Italy were
>>>>>forced to attend (a practice reinstituted in the 1840's by Pope
>>>>>Gregory XVI)
>>>>
>>>>What was the reason for the alleged forced attendance?
>>
>>It wasn't "alleged" it was forced. Mind you, there were times of
>>>"leniency" (p. 85):
>>>
>>
>>Your opinion on this matter does not interest me, Hilary.
>I'm quite sure it doesn't. But perhaps the opinion of Richard Lebrun,
>who reviewed Kertzer's book (as well as Carroll's _Constantine's
>Sword_) for H-Catholic, will hold more weight:
>
><quote>
Another book loaded with trash. I am uninterested in his stupid opinions.
>David Kertzer's book argues the tough and controversial position that
>the teachings and actions of the Church, including those of the popes
>themselves, for the better part of a century and a half, from the fall
>of Napoleon to the rise of Hitler, not only failed to combat
>antisemitism, but actively and purposely contributed to it, lent it
>authority, and honored some of its most active purveyors, and thus
>shares responsibility for making the Holocaust possible. However, in
>contrast to Carroll, Kertzer's declared agenda is limited to
>achieving, in his own words, "a
>clearer understanding of the past" (p.
Like I said, it is a load of ROT.
>21). He sees himself as working entirely in line with Pope John Paul's
>"call for the Catholic world to confront its past with clear eyes" (p.
The Catholic Past is Good. There is nothing offensive in the Catholic Past.
>21), and his stated hope is that by contributing to a better
>understanding of the past his book will contribute to a brighter
>future. In the pope's most recent call for honesty about the past, in
>a message to the participants of an international conference
>commemorating the fourth centenary of the Matteo Ricci's arrival in
>Bejing, he repeated a point he has voiced many times in his
>pontificate: "The Church must not be afraid of historical truth and
>she is ready--with deeply-felt pain--to admit the responsibility of
>her children. ... Historical truth must be sought severely, with
>impartiality and in its entirety" [5].
>From what he writes in this
>book and from what he has subsequently stated in interviews, it seems
>evident that David Kertzer sees himself as engaged in precisely this
>kind of search for "historical truth."
>
Search for historical ROT is more like it. Tell you what, why don't you
contact the Pope and ask his opinion of those comments expressed above?
>Partly because of his reputation as a sound historian of modern Italy
>and partly because of an appreciative article that he had written for
>The New York Times in February 1998 following Cardinal Ratzinger's
>announcement that the archives of the Roman Inquisition would now be
>open to scholars, Kertzer was among the small number of researchers
>who gained early access to this treasure trove of documents
And then proceeded to misrepresent them, according to what you have posted
here.
>In
>addition to the archives of the Inquisition (only opened for materials
>up to 1900), he also consulted seven other Vatican archives, French
>archives, a very large sampling of Catholic periodical literature from
>the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, and much of the
Periodical literature is not sponsored by the Vatican.
>enormous mass
>of secondary literature that has been generated around the issue of
>modern antisemitism. From these materials he has constructed a
>vigorous case against the distinction that the Vatican and its
>defenders have been making in
>recent years between religious
>antisemitism, which the Church acknowledges to have characterized its
>past, and social, economic, and racial antisemitism, which it is
>claimed the Church never advocated.
More rot. We'll see about all of this when I get my hands on this book.
Hopefully soon.
>The first and most persuasive part of Kertzer's study (based on the
>archives of the Inquisition) examines how nineteenth-century popes,
>restored as monarchs of the Papal States in 1814, treated Jews
>resident in their own domains. For Jews, one extremely important
>consequence of the French
>Revolution was their emancipation from
>centuries old restrictions on places
Oh, that wonderful French revolution in which thousands were beheaded, and
which prepared the way for the tyrant Napoleon?
>of residence (ghettos) and
>occupation. Conquest by the armies of Revolutionary France and then
>Napoleon had brought emancipation to the Jews of the Papal States and
>Rome itself.
And that, of course, is why you approve of Napoleon.
> The language that the Vatican's "We Remember" statement
>uses to describe these developments is curiously disingenuous, to say
>the least.
In HIS opinion.
snip the rest of the rot.
And I do mean ROT.
Hilary Ostrov
<20011231171227...@mb-mh.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
>>>posted numerous sources which validate it.
>>
>>I don't expect you to "go through this again". But it is NOT a fact.
>>You have posted nothing which would validate it - which is probably
>>why you snipped and ran from the evidence I provided:
>>
>
>Like I said, I am NOT going through this again. It is TRUE and FACTUAL and I
>have posted at least four alternate sources in the past which all prove it to
>be so.
In that case it will be easy for you to repost at least two of them.
In the meantime, here's the URL that you keep snipping 'n running
from:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=%3C37422ba...@news.uniserve.com%3E&hl=en
>>>>>>Given the history of cases such as Edgardo Mortara, and other secret
>>>>>>and forced baptisms
>>>>>
>>>>>How can a baptism be "secretly forced?"
>>>Some were secret (e.g. Mortara) and others were forced (from note 28,
>>>>p. 304):
>>>I repeat: The Church does not FORCE baptism on anyone. And this "secret"
>>>business is as ludicrous as the "secret" meeting of the Elders of Zion.
>>
>>And I repeat. Now the Church does not. But it did. It also promoted
>>the "truth" of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
>
>AND I repeat that the Church has NEVER attempted to force baptism on Jews or
>anyone else. Nor has "the Church" or "the Popes" promoted the Protocols.
You can repeat this as often as your miserable little Jew-hating heart
desires. But it will not change reality or historical fact.
>This
>is what happens when you rely upon Jewish bigots for your information, Ms
>Ostrov...
Kertzer is Jewish, but he is not a bigot. He's a respected historian
who backs up his claims with evidence. Incidentally, when was the
last time you conducted research in the Vatican archives, Joe?! If
that fails to register with your excuse for a mind, try using your own
inimitable ... uh ... logic: no one from the Vatican has sued Kertzer
for libel pursuant to either of his books, ergo he's correct.
>but I have the distinct impression that this is exactly the sort of
>rot you are accustomed to look for in your endeavors to attack Christianity.
You might consider my posts an attack on you (they're not, but that is
beside the point). However, you do not represent Christianity, thank
God.
>>>><quote>
>>>>
>>>>Of the twenty-five adults forced by police into the [Catechumens in
>>>>mid-1814 through 1824], all were women, for the Church required Jewish
>>>>husbands [who freely entered] to offer their wives, but wives could
>>>>not offer their husbands.
>>>
>>>Forced by police? Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that the
>>>Vatican does not issue orders to the police.
>
>>Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that in the 1800's it did.
>
>That is utter ROT.
Prove it.
>The Vatican does not and never has issued orders to the
>police.
Whether the orders came directly from the Vatican or from members of
the Church hierarchy who happened not to be inside the physical
confines of the Vatican at the time is immaterial. The fact remains
that Church policy towards the Jews was enforced by the police in the
Papal States.
>>>>[...] every one of the twenty-seven children under age ten brought by
>>>>the police to the Catechumens was baptized.
>>>>
>>>></quote>
>
>>>Again, there is something seriously amiss with this excerpted account.
>>
>>Nothing amiss with the account. But there is much amiss with the
>>deeds.
>
>There is something seriously amiss with someone who would rely on an ignorant
>Jewish bigot for their information, too.
There would be, I agree. But I did not rely on anything from Richard
Phillips or Joe Bruno. I relied on the research findings of a
respected historian, David I. Kertzer - a man who in 1985 and 1990 was
awarded the Marraro Prize from the Society for Italian Historical
Studies for the best work on Italian history.
>From what you have posted, the man who authored this book is an ignoramous, who
>doesn't understand anything about the Catholic Church.
That is your opinion. I fully expect you to blindly hold to it,
notwithstanding all evidence to the contrary - as you always do.
>>>>The Church does not compel anyone to
>>>>>be baptized against their will.
>>>>
>>>>Now it doesn't, I agree. But in the past it did.
>>>
>>>It never has.
>>
>>Yes it has.
>
>Your opinion on this matter is equal to squat. It never has.
Not my opinion, Joe-Joe. It's fact.
>>>>>>s well as of sermons that Jews in Italy were
>>>>>>forced to attend (a practice reinstituted in the 1840's by Pope
>>>>>>Gregory XVI)
>>>>>
>>>>>What was the reason for the alleged forced attendance?
>>>It wasn't "alleged" it was forced. Mind you, there were times of
>>>>"leniency" (p. 85):
>>>Your opinion on this matter does not interest me, Hilary.
>
>>I'm quite sure it doesn't. But perhaps the opinion of Richard Lebrun,
>>who reviewed Kertzer's book (as well as Carroll's _Constantine's
>>Sword_) for H-Catholic, will hold more weight:
>>
>><quote>
>
>Another book loaded with trash.
It wasn't a book, Joe-Joe. It was a review posted to the respected
list, H-Catholic. For the benefit of readers who missed the excerpt
of this review - and who would prefer to read it without being
subjected to Bellinger's temper tantrums:
Richard Lebrun. "Review of David I. Kertzer, The Popes Against the
Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism,"
H-Catholic, H-Net Reviews, November, 2001. URL:
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=279061007581822.
> I am uninterested in his stupid opinions.
Lebrun's opinions are not "stupid". Furthermore - while he is
somewhat more modest than you, and does not presume to call himself an
"expert" - here are some items from his CV:
Canadian Catholic Historical Association
Vice-President, 1968-69
President, 1969-70
[When was the last time *you* were elected President or Vice-President
of a Catholic Historical Association, little Mr. Expert?!]
Fields in which Lebrun is a Specialist:
History of modern Europe
History of France
The history of Catholicism
French intellectual history (18th and 19th centuries)
Among the credit courses that he has taught are: History of
Catholicism to 1540 and History of Catholicism since 1540.
Certainly Lebrun is no Rosemary Radford Ruether (evidently, one of
your preferred sources, these days). Seeing credentials such as
Leburn's, though, a reasonable person would expect that if there were
any fault to be found with Kertzer's work, Lebrun would have found it.
Clearly he didn't.
So put that in your satanic little pipe and smoke it, little Mr.
Expert.
[...]
<insert next temper tantrum here>
Debunks
>Date: 12/31/01 5:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <c9u13ucjg7upg0ibu...@4ax.com>
I will repost ONE, since I have it on hand:
"On December 29, 1977, Christians in Israel and the occupied territories
protested a new law passed by the Israeli parliament making it illegal for
missionaries to proselytize Jews. Protestant churches charged that the law had
been "hastily pushed through parliament during the Christmas period when
Christians were busily engaged in preparing for and celebrating their major
festival." The law made missionaries liable to five year's imprisonment for
attempting to persuade people to change their religion, and three years'
imprisonment for any Jew who converted."
SOURCE" NY Times, 12/30/77
This law was confirmed in the book by minister R. L. Hymers, "Holocaust II."
So now you have two sources.
>
>>>>>>>Given the history of cases such as Edgardo Mortara, and other secret
>>>>>>>and forced baptisms
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How can a baptism be "secretly forced?"
>>>>Some were secret (e.g. Mortara) and others were forced (from note 28,
>>>>>p. 304):
>
>>>>I repeat: The Church does not FORCE baptism on anyone. And this "secret"
>>>>business is as ludicrous as the "secret" meeting of the Elders of Zion.
>>>And I repeat. Now the Church does not. But it did. It also promoted
>>>the "truth" of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
>>
>>AND I repeat that the Church has NEVER attempted to force baptism on Jews or
>>anyone else. Nor has "the Church" or "the Popes" promoted the Protocols.
>You can repeat this as often as your miserable little Jew-hating heart
>desire
Your idee fixe pops up again. LOL!
>. But it will not change reality or historical fact.
Follow your own advice, stupid. You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you in your
tush. Get over it: the church does not and never did compel anyone to become
baptized. The Catholic Church does not acknowlege insincere baptisms as having
any validity.
>Kertzer is Jewish, but he is not a bigot.
From what you posted, he is. Either that, or he is woefully stupid.
> He's a respected historian
>who backs up his claims with evidence.
Well, where is it? You haven't produced any. Are you holding it back>?
> Incidentally, when was the
>last time you conducted research in the Vatican archives, Joe?!
Why do I need to go into their archives to snoop for dirt? I am quite
knowlegeable in the history of the Church.
> If
>that fails to register with your excuse for a mind, try using your own
>inimitable ... uh ... logic: no one from the Vatican has sued Kertzer
>for libel pursuant to either of his books, ergo he's correct.
Well, like Pope Paul VI said, "The smoke of Satan has entered into the Church."
Note that the church hasn't sued Jack Chick either. Have the Jews sued anyone
for reprinting the Protocols lately>?
>>but I have the distinct impression that this is exactly the sort of
>>rot you are accustomed to look for in your endeavors to attack Christianity.
>You might consider my posts an attack on you (they're not, but that is
>beside the point). However, you do not represent Christianity, thank
>God.
Who does? The Jews? I am remarkably well informed on the history of the
Church, should you ever have the urge to try and debate me on the subject of
Jewish-Christian relations over the centuries.
>>>><quote>
>>>>>
>>>>>Of the twenty-five adults forced by police into the [Catechumens in
>>>>>mid-1814 through 1824], all were women, for the Church required Jewish
>>>>>husbands [who freely entered] to offer their wives, but
>wives could
>>>>>not offer their husbands.
>>>>Forced by police? Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that the
>>>>Vatican does not issue orders to the police.
>>
>>>Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that in the 1800's it did.
>>
>>That is utter ROT.
>Prove it
No, it is up to you and your Kertzer fellow to do the proving. Where is the
documentation?
>
>>The Vatican does not and never has issued orders to the
>>police.
>
>Whether the orders came directly from the Vatican or from members of
>the Church hierarchy who happened not to be inside the physical
>confines of the Vatican at the time is immaterial.
I see you have absolutely NO idea concerning the heirarchy and operations of
the Church.
Really, it is amusing, but what one might expect from a person totally ignorant
in regard to the history, practices and beliefs of the Catholic Church. We
have no Obergruppenfuehrer's, Ms Ostrov.
>The fact remains
>that Church policy towards the Jews was enforced by the police in the
>Papal States.
Do you know what the Papal states were? Please give me your definition.
>>>>>[...] every one of the twenty-seven children under age ten brought by
>>>>>the police to the Catechumens was baptized.
>>>>>
>>>>></quote>
>>>>Again, there is something seriously amiss with this excerpted account.
>>>
>>>Nothing amiss with the account. But there is much amiss with the
>>>deeds.
>>There is something seriously amiss with someone who would rely on an
>ignorant
>>Jewish bigot for their information, too.
>There would be, I agree
Then why do you do so?
> But I did not rely on anything from Richard
>Phillips or Joe Bruno.
They both appear to be more intelligent than you. And more decent into the
bargain, too.
>I relied on the research findings of a
>respected historian, David I. Kertzer - a man who in 1985 and 1990 was
>awarded the Marraro Prize from the Society for Italian Historical
>Studies for the best work on Italian history.
That's nice. Perhaps you have been misquoting him? Or misinterpreting what he
wrote?
>>From what you have posted, the man who authored this book is an ignoramous,
>who
>>doesn't understand anything about the Catholic Church.
>
>That is your opinion
It is not an opinion. I am a Catholic and I am knowlegeable in the history of
my Church.
>I fully expect you to blindly hold to it,
>notwithstanding all evidence to the contrary - as you always do.
Where is the evidence, then? You have not posted anything of interest to date?
Give me something SOLID. Let me see it supported with real
documentation...give me something convincing.
>
>>>>>The Church does not compel anyone to
>>>>>>be baptized against their will.
>>>>>
>>>>>Now it doesn't, I agree. But in the past it did.
>>>>
>>>>It never has.
>>>Yes it has.
>>
>>Your opinion on this matter is equal to squat. It never has.
>
>Not my opinion, Joe-Joe. It's fact
Er, no, Hil-Hil...your idee fixe re the Church is not based upon fact at all.
>>>>>>s well as of sermons that Jews in Italy were
>>>>>>>forced to attend (a practice reinstituted in the 1840's by Pope
>>>>>>>Gregory XVI)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What was the reason for the alleged forced attendance?
>
>>>>It wasn't "alleged" it was forced. Mind you, there were times of
>>>>>"leniency" (p. 85):
>
>>>>Your opinion on this matter does not interest me, Hilary.
>>
>I'm quite sure it doesn't. But perhaps the opinion of Richard Lebrun,
>>>who reviewed Kertzer's book (as well as Carroll's _Constantine's
>>>Sword_) for H-Catholic, will hold more weight:
>>>
>>><quote>
>>Another book loaded with trash.
>
>It wasn't a book, Joe-Joe.
I was talking about Constantine's Cross. Did you know that Constantine
supported the arch-heretic Arius over the Church? Perhaps you can inform the
author of that fact?
>t was a review posted to the respected
>list, H-Catholic.
And woefully misinformed, too. I see people can post whatever rot suits them
there.
> For the benefit of readers who missed the excerpt
>of this review - and who would prefer to read it without being
>subjected to Bellinger's temper tantrums:
>
snip
Let them read it. I have no intention of being half bored to death again.
>> I am uninterested in his stupid opinions.
>Lebrun's opinions are not "stupid"
Well, I think they are.
>Furthermore - while he is
>somewhat more modest than you, and does not presume to call himself an
>"expert" - here are some items from his CV:
Thank God for that! He doesn't dare.
>Canadian Catholic Historical Association
>Vice-President, 1968-69
>President, 1969-70
>
>[When was the last time *you* were elected President or Vice-President
>of a Catholic Historical Association, little Mr. Expert?!]
I am unimpressed. The man;s opinions were ignorant. There are millions of
Catholics in this world.
>Fields in which Lebrun is a Specialist:
>
>History of modern Europe
>History of France
>The history of Catholicism
>French intellectual history (18th and 19th centuries)
>
That's nice. He is still stuffed.
>Certainly Lebrun is no Rosemary Radford Ruether (evidently, one of
>your preferred sources, these days).
Do you have problems with her? If so, explain.
>Seeing credentials such as
>Leburn's, though, a reasonable person would expect that if there were
>any fault to be found with Kertzer's work, Lebrun would have found it.
>Clearly he didn't.
Yes, and Hans Kueng and Telhard de Jardin were both "theologians" too....and
both discredited. "The Smoke of Satan"-Pope Paul VI.
>So put that in your satanic little pipe and smoke it, little Mr.
>Expert.
No thanks. I am not in the mood for poison today.
Hilary Ostrov
<20020102035509...@mb-cg.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote:
["yes it does", "no it doesn't" etc]
>>In that case it will be easy for you to repost at least two of them.
>>In the meantime, here's the URL that you keep snipping 'n running
>>from:
Silly little Joe. If you're going to keep snipping the URL, I'm going
to keep pasting it back in:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=%3C37422ba...@news.uniserve.com%3E&hl=en
>I will repost ONE, since I have it on hand:
>
>"On December 29, 1977, Christians in Israel and the occupied territories
>protested a new law passed by the Israeli parliament making it illegal for
>missionaries to proselytize Jews. Protestant churches charged that the law had
>been "hastily pushed through parliament during the Christmas period when
>Christians were busily engaged in preparing for and celebrating their major
>festival." The law made missionaries liable to five year's imprisonment for
>attempting to persuade people to change their religion, and three years'
>imprisonment for any Jew who converted."
>
>SOURCE" NY Times, 12/30/77
Joe, how on earth can you continue to flog this nonsense when you know
that you're *not* providing the real goods?! This is your
"revisionized" conflation (with a glaring omission) of what David
Gehrig had *researched* and provided:
<quote>
[...]
While we're at it, let's take a closer look at the bill in
question. It was passed -- as I posted here before, but Joe
ignored -- on December 27, 1977. Here is an excerpt from an
article about it in the Dec 29, 1997 NYT, under the headline
"Protestants in Israel Charge Bias":
"Tel Aviv, Dec. 29--Protestants churces in Israel protested
today against the enactment of a law making missionaries
liable to five years' imprisonment if they offer material
inducements to people to change their religion.
"An emergency committee of the United Christian Council said
in a telegram to Menachem Begin that the law, enacted
Tuesday, could be 'misused in restricing religious liberty
in Israel.'
"The law does not mention missionaries, but an explanatory
note attached to the bill, which had been introduced by
Rabbi Yehuda Meir Abromovitz of the ultra-Orthodox Agudat
Israel Party, said they were offering 'huge sums of money'
to 'ensnare the souls' of the poor. ..."
So, again, is this a bill prohibiting preaching or proselytizing?
No, and if Joe wants to represent it as such he is lying. As this
article shows, churches don't support the buying of converts; I
know of no organization which supports such a practice. Their
concern with the bill is that it might be misinterpreted or
misused owing to vagueness in its language. That is the
nature of the Christian protest against the bill.
Can I back that up? Sure. Here's another article, from the
Valentine's Day, 1978, NYT:
"Tel Aviv, Feb 13.--An ice-cream vendor appeared on an
Israeli television talk show recently to say that he would
convert to Christianity to avoid going to jail for three
years.
"The vendor, Pinchas Golan, explained that he haved the
sentence because he could not pay more than $6,000 in fines
for peddling without a permit. His appeals to the Government
and to various institutions were in vain, he said, so in
desperation he was taking up an offer by a Christian
missionary to pay his fine and enable him and his family to
settle abroad.
"The incident focussed new attention on an amendment to the
penal code, adopted by Parliament in December, that makes it
an offense punishable by five years' imprisonment to offer
anyone material benefits to change his religion...
"After Mr. Golan's appearance on television, the Rev. Harry
Knight, an Anglican who is a spokesman for [the United
Christian Council], said that if the story were true the
missionary concerned should be disciplined, but that such
cases did not justify what he described as a loosely worded
measure. ...
"There has been no official response to the clergymen's
protest, but Yisrael Lippel, Director Genereal of the
Ministry of Religious Affairs, dismissed it, in reply to a
query, as a tempest in a teapot. Asserting that the law was
not antimissionary but antibribery, he said, "Christians can
preach and convert all they want as long they don't offer
material benefits. ..."
While the law the Knesset passed is of dubious merit, it's
certainly not what Joe has claimed it is -- a bill prohibiting
the preaching of Christianity in Israel and calling for prison
terms for anyone who does.
</quote>
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&rnum=1&selm=Gqvd3.167%24Xw4.11326%40typ32b.nn.bcandid.com
>This law was confirmed in the book by minister R. L. Hymers, "Holocaust II."
Would he by any chance be the baptist minister who (according to one
of his fans) provides "Proof that abortion is the real cause of
illegal immigration."? http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Books.htm
>So now you have two sources.
No. We have a continuation of your failure to acknowledge that the
law applies only in the case where "material benefits" are offered as
inducement to convert.
>>>>>>>>Given the history of cases such as Edgardo Mortara, and other secret
>>>>>>>>and forced baptisms
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>How can a baptism be "secretly forced?"
>
>>>>>Some were secret (e.g. Mortara) and others were forced (from note 28,
>>>>>>p. 304):
>
>>
>>>>>I repeat: The Church does not FORCE baptism on anyone. And this "secret"
>>>>>business is as ludicrous as the "secret" meeting of the Elders of Zion.
>
>>>>And I repeat. Now the Church does not. But it did. It also promoted
>>>>the "truth" of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
>>>
>
>>>AND I repeat that the Church has NEVER attempted to force baptism on Jews or
>>>anyone else. Nor has "the Church" or "the Popes" promoted the Protocols.
>
>>You can repeat this as often as your miserable little Jew-hating heart
>>desire
>
>Your idee fixe pops up again. LOL!
>
>>. But it will not change reality or historical fact.
>
>Follow your own advice, stupid. You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you in your
>tush. Get over it: the church does not and never did compel anyone to become
>baptized. The Catholic Church does not acknowlege insincere baptisms as having
>any validity.
Again, it does not now. But it definitely did in the not too distant
past. Deal with it.
>>Kertzer is Jewish, but he is not a bigot.
>
>From what you posted, he is. Either that, or he is woefully stupid.
No. From what he has posted, the one who is "woefully stupid" - and a
bigot, too - is Joe Bellinger.
>> He's a respected historian
>>who backs up his claims with evidence.
>
>Well, where is it? You haven't produced any. Are you holding it back>?
I have no intention of typing in the whole of Kertzer's book in order
to accommodate your knee-jerk response to historical facts that don't
conform to your warped view of the world.
>> Incidentally, when was the
>>last time you conducted research in the Vatican archives, Joe?!
>
>Why do I need to go into their archives to snoop for dirt?
LOL. Is that what you think they keep in the archives, "dirt"?!
Well, I have good news and bad news for you, little Mr. Expert. The
good news is you got two letters correct. The bad news is it's a much
longer word. What you will find in the archives is (I'll spell it for
you slowly):
d o c u m e n t a t i o n
And (this will, no doubt, come as a big surprise to you), archival
documentation is used as primary source material by reputable
historians when they conduct their research.
>I am quite
>knowlegeable in the history of the Church.
Yeah, right. And you're one of the foremost North American experts on
the Third Reich, and an expert on Judaism etc.etc. It is to laugh.
>> If
>>that fails to register with your excuse for a mind, try using your own
>>inimitable ... uh ... logic: no one from the Vatican has sued Kertzer
>>for libel pursuant to either of his books, ergo he's correct.
>
>Well, like Pope Paul VI said, "The smoke of Satan has entered into the Church."
Really? He must have known that at some point in time Joe Bellinger
would claim to be a Catholic
[...]
>>>but I have the distinct impression that this is exactly the sort of
>>>rot you are accustomed to look for in your endeavors to attack Christianity.
>
>>You might consider my posts an attack on you (they're not, but that is
>>beside the point). However, you do not represent Christianity, thank
>>God.
>
>Who does? The Jews?
No. And neither do you.
>I am remarkably well informed on the history of the
>Church,
Sure you are, little Mr. Expert.
>should you ever have the urge to try and debate me on the subject of
>Jewish-Christian relations over the centuries.
No, thank you. I have no wish to be subjected to any more of your
ignorant and disrespectful diatribes.
>>>>><quote>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Of the twenty-five adults forced by police into the [Catechumens in
>>>>>>mid-1814 through 1824], all were women, for the Church required Jewish
>>>>>>husbands [who freely entered] to offer their wives, but wives could
>>>>>>not offer their husbands.
>
>>>>>Forced by police? Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that the
>>>>>Vatican does not issue orders to the police.
>>>
>>>>Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that in the 1800's it did.
>>>
>>>That is utter ROT.
>
>>Prove it
>
>No, it is up to you and your Kertzer fellow to do the proving. Where is the
>documentation?
Covered in Kertzer's book. Read it. It's good enough for me, and it's
good enough for Richard Lebrun - a Catholic who *does* know his
history (and who knows how history is written). But if it's not good
enough for you, Joe, book yourself a trip to Italy and spend some time
in the Vatican archives.
[...]
>>>>>>[...] every one of the twenty-seven children under age ten brought by
>>>>>>the police to the Catechumens was baptized.
>>>>>>
>>>>>></quote>
>
>>>>>Again, there is something seriously amiss with this excerpted account.
>>>>
>>>>Nothing amiss with the account. But there is much amiss with the
>>>>deeds.
>
>>>There is something seriously amiss with someone who would rely on an
>>>ignorant Jewish bigot for their information, too.
>
>>There would be, I agree
>
>Then why do you do so?
I told you, I don't.
>> But I did not rely on anything from Richard
>>Phillips or Joe Bruno.
>
>They both appear to be more intelligent than you. And more decent into the
>bargain, too.
I am not in the least surprised that you would find such kind words to
say about two ignorant Jewish bigots - one of whom believes in
Atlantis and vampires, and the other of whom relies on movies for his
history.
>>I relied on the research findings of a
>>respected historian, David I. Kertzer - a man who in 1985 and 1990 was
>>awarded the Marraro Prize from the Society for Italian Historical
>>Studies for the best work on Italian history.
>That's nice. Perhaps you have been misquoting him?
Nope. And neither did Lebrun. But - based on your past performances
- I'm sure we can count on you to do so when you read his book.
>Or misinterpreting what he
>wrote?
Nope. And neither did Lebrun. But - based on your past performances
- I'm sure we can count on you to do so when you read his book.
[...]
Debunks
>Date: 1/2/02 9:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <o1g63usbs04jrv415...@4ax.com>
You asked for the sources. I gave them. And you continue in "stupid" mode.
>>>In that case it will be easy for you to repost at least two of them.
>>>In the meantime, here's the URL that you keep snipping 'n running
>>>from:
>
>Silly little Joe
Actually I am 200 lbs and 5'10.
>If you're going to keep snipping the URL, I'm going
>to keep pasting it back in:
>
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=%3C37422ba...@news.unise
rve.com%3E&hl=en
>
Paste it all you like. It does supercede the NY Times article I cited below.
>>I will repost ONE, since I have it on hand:
>>
>>"On December 29, 1977, Christians in Israel and the occupied territories
>>protested a new law passed by the Israeli parliament making it illegal for
>>missionaries to proselytize Jews. Protestant churches charged that the law
>had
>>been "hastily pushed through
>parliament during the Christmas period when
>>Christians were busily engaged in preparing for and celebrating their major
>>festival." The law made missionaries liable to five year's imprisonment for
>>attempting to persuade people to change their religion, and three
>years'
>>imprisonment for any Jew who converted."
>>
>>SOURCE" NY Times, 12/30/77
>
>Joe, how on earth can you continue to flog this nonsense when you know
>that you're *not* providing the real goods?! This is your
>"revisionized" conflation (with a glaring omission) of what David
>Gehrig had *researched* and provided:
Look, go tell it to the Marines. I read the same information in the Jewish
Currents, along with the same complaints by Protestants. So, your contention
is that they were lying, or fabricated the story out of thin air? The same law
was referred to by R. L Hymers in Holocaust II, and he is a good old boy of a
fundamentalist who normally loves Israel...yet he too, complained. All of
these people, and the NY Times as well, were suffering from some mass delusion
which unjustly denigrated the Israeli government, right?
>While we're at it, let's take a closer look at the bill in
>question. It was passed -- as I posted here before, but Joe
>ignored -- on December 27, 1977.
That is the same damn law.
>Here is an excerpt from an
>article about it in the Dec 29, 1997 NYT, under the headline
>"Protestants in Israel Charge Bias":
> "Tel Aviv, Dec. 29--Protestants churces in Israel protested
> today against the enactment of a law making missionaries
> liable to five years' imprisonment if they offer material
> inducements to people to change their religion.
> "An emergency committee of the United Christian Council said
> in a telegram to Menachem Begin that the law, enacted
> Tuesday, could be 'misused in restricing religious liberty
> in Israel.'
Good old prophet Menachem. A celebrated old terrorist.
> "The law does not mention missionaries, but an explanatory
> note attached to the bill, which had been introduced by
> Rabbi Yehuda Meir Abromovitz of the ultra-Orthodox Agudat
> Israel Party, said they were offering 'huge sums of money'
> to 'ensnare the souls' of the poor. ..."
A lie and a smear. And WHY should this be an issue for legislation and
penalization anyway? THAT is the point here. One can only find historical
precedents in the persecution of the Christians in Soviet Russia and ancient
Rome.
>So, again, is this a bill prohibiting preaching or proselytizing?
>No, and if Joe wants to represent it as such he is lying.
Let people decide for themselves. In my book, it is definitely a law
prohibiting proselytizing.
>As this
>article shows, churches don't support the buying of converts; I
>know of no organization which supports such a practice. Their
>concern with the bill is that it might be misinterpreted or
> misused owing to vagueness in its language. That is the
>nature of the Christian protest against the bill.
>Can I back that up? Sure. Here's another article, from the
>Valentine's Day, 1978, NYT:
>
> "Tel Aviv, Feb 13.--An ice-cream vendor appeared on an
> Israeli television talk show recently to say that he would
> convert to Christianity to avoid going to jail for three
> years.
>
> "The vendor, Pinchas Golan, explained that he haved the
> sentence because he could not pay more than $6,000 in fines
> for peddling without a permit. His appeals to the Government
> and to various institutions were in vain, he said, so in
> desperation he was taking up an offer by a Christian
> missionary to pay his fine
>and enable him and his family to
> settle abroad.
What Christian offered to pay his fine? And to settle abroad where, when
Christians in this country are subsidizing the flight of Soviet Jews to Israel?
> "The incident focussed new attention on an amendment to the
> penal code, adopted by Parliament in December, that makes it
> an offense punishable by five years' imprisonment to offer
> anyone material benefits to change his religion...
> "After Mr. Golan's appearance on television, the Rev. Harry
> Knight, an Anglican who is a spokesman for [the United
> Christian Council], said that if the story were true the
> missionary concerned should be disciplined, but that such
> cases did not justify what he described as a loosely worded
> measure. ...
>
> "There has been no official response to the clergymen's
> protest, but Yisrael Lippel, Director Genereal of the
> Ministry of Religious Affairs, dismissed it, in reply to a
> query, as a tempest in a teapot. Asserting that the law was
> not antimissionary but antibribery, he said, "Christians can
> preach and convert all they want as long they don't offer
> material benefits. ..."
>
>While the law the Knesset passed is of dubious merit, it's
>certainly not what Joe has claimed it is -- a bill prohibiting
>the preaching of Christianity in Israel and calling for prison
>terms for anyone who does.
>
></quote>
>
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&rnum=1&selm=Gqvd3.167%24Xw4.11326%4
0typ32b.nn.bcandid.com
The story is most likely completely bogus.
And there is your idee fixe surfacing again. It is not "my" claim, but that of
the Times, Hymers and the Jewish Currents. What is this problem you have with
projection anyway? And your excerpts disagree with what I posted from the
times, namely:
>>"On December 29, 1977, Christians in Israel and the occupied territories
>>protested a new law passed by the Israeli parliament making it illegal for
>>missionaries to proselytize Jews.
That is clear cut. The parliament made it illegal for missionaries to
proselytize Jews. That is what it says.
>Protestant churches charged that the law had
>>been "hastily pushed through parliament during the Christmas period when
>>Christians were busily engaged in preparing for and celebrating their major
>>festival."
Another clear statement.
>The law made missionaries liable to five year's imprisonment for
>>attempting to persuade people to change their religion
Well?
>and three years'
>>imprisonment for any Jew who converted."
Well?
>>This law was confirmed in the book by minister R. L. Hymers, "Holocaust II."
>Would he by any chance be the baptist minister who (according to one
>of his fans) provides "Proof that abortion is the real cause of
>illegal immigration."? http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Books.htm
>
I don't know if it is or isn't, as I referred you to what was written in his
book "Holocaust II." Probably is one and the same. So what. The man is
opposed to abortion, and rightfully so.
>>So now you have two sources.
>
>No. We have a continuation of your failure to acknowledge that the
>law applies only in the case where "material benefits" are offered as
>inducement to convert.
That is NOT what was written in the citations I posted. End of issue.
Your obsessions are not of interest to me, Hilary. The Church has never
assigned validity to forced baptisms and the entire suggestion is absurd and
ignorant.
>>>Kertzer is Jewish, but he is not a bigot.
>>
>>From what you posted, he is. Either that, or he is woefully stupid
>No. From what he has posted, the one who is "woefully stupid" - and a
>bigot, too - is Joe Bellinger.
You can call names all you wish. It will not help you to prove your contention
that Kertzer is credible.
>> He's a respected historian
>>>who backs up his claims with evidence.
>>
>>Well, where is it? You haven't produced any. Are you holding it back>?
>I have no intention of typing in the whole of Kertzer's book in order
>to accommodate your knee-jerk response to historical facts that don't
>conform to your warped view of the world.
Did I ask you to type in his whole book? No. I asked you repeatedly to post
something which can be documented - not silly misrepresentations of facts or
snide generalizations woven out of thin air in Ketzer's and your shared morbid
world of fantasy. The fact appears to be thus: Kertzer waltzed into the
Vatican with one thought in mind: He was going to "prove" his ignorant
pre-existing prejudice against Christians and Catholics in particular by
"proving" the unproveable - that Catholicism is synonymous with antisemitism
and that the Catholic Church lent succor to the Nazis in their persecution of
the Jews.
>> Incidentally, when was the
>>>last time you conducted research in the Vatican archives, Joe?!
>>
>>Why do I need to go into their archives to snoop for dirt?
>LOL. Is that what you think they keep in the archives, "dirt"?!
I think that is more representative of your opinions rather than mine, Ms
Ostrov. Your dear Kertzer had the silly notion in his mind that he was going
to uncover such "dirt" in the Vatican archives. well, prove that he succeeded
in his endeavor.
>Well, I have good news and bad news for you, little Mr. Expert.
Flattery will get you nowhere.
>The
>good news is you got two letters correct. The bad news is it's a much
>longer word. What you will find in the archives is (I'll spell it for
>you slowly):
>
> d o c u m e n t a t i o n
Great! When will you get around to posting any? How many times have I asked
you already?
>
>And (this will, no doubt, come as a big surprise to you), archival
>documentation is used as primary source material by reputable
>historians when they conduct their research.
>
When will you post it? You have posted nothing worthy of credibility to date.
>>I am quite
>>knowlegeable in the history of the Church.
>
>Yeah, right. And you're one of the foremost North American experts on
>the Third Reich, and an expert on Judaism etc.etc. It is to laugh.
Yet I do not see you ever offering to debate on any of those topics in order to
"prove" my "ignorance." We all know why, too. You are the least knowlegeable
of any poster in this newsgroup.
>
>>> If
>>>that fails to register with your excuse for a mind, try using your own
>>>inimitable ... uh ... logic: no one from the Vatican has sued Kertzer
>>>for libel pursuant to either of his books, ergo he's correct.
>>
>>Well, like Pope Paul VI said, "The smoke of Satan has entered into the
>Church."
>
>Really? He must have known that at some point in time Joe Bellinger
>would claim to be a Catholic
Rather, he, like Pius XII, whom Jews of your peculiar ilk abhor, was honest
enough to note the infestation of unscrupulous people pursuing a particular
antichristian agenda throughout the cloistered halls of the Vatican and various
Catholic dioceses throughout the world.
>[...]
>
>>>>but I have the distinct impression that this is exactly the sort of
>>>>rot you are accustomed to look for in your endeavors to attack
>Christianity.
>
>>>You might consider my posts an attack on you (they're not, but that is
>>>beside the point). However, you do not represent Christianity, thank
>>>God.
>>
>>Who does? The Jews?
>
>No. And neither do you.
I am not claiming to represent Catholicism, but I am remarkable well informed
on the history of the Church and what is clearly taught in OUR Scriptures.
>Sure you are, little Mr. Expert.
>
As if you would ever know the difference!
>>should you ever have the urge to try and debate me on the subject of
>>Jewish-Christian relations over the centuries.
>
>No, thank you.
LOL! Bingo. The oyster slithers off again....
>I have no wish to be subjected to any more of your
>ignorant and disrespectful diatribes.
>
>
Only the Ostroid would consider truth to be ignorant and disrespectful. Well,
that is tough, Hilary....I am not in the business of catering to your festering
little fantasies and psychological aberrations.
.
>>><quote>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Of the twenty-five adults forced by police into the [Catechumens in
>>>>>>>mid-1814 through 1824], all were women, for the Church required Jewish
>>>>>>>husbands [who freely entered] to offer their wives, but
>wives could
>>>>>>>not offer their husbands.
>>
>>>>>>Forced by police? Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that the
>>>>>>Vatican does not issue orders to the police.
>>>>Forgive me, but I need to point out to you that in the 1800's it did.
>>>>
>>>>That is utter ROT.
>>
>>>Prove it
>>
>Kertzer fellow to do the proving. Where is the
>>documentation?
>
>Covered in Kertzer's book.
Where? Why didn't you post anything of interest or something unambiguously
documented?
> Read it. It's good enough for me
Your bias needs but little in the way of feeding...
>and it's
>good enough for Richard Lebrun - a Catholic who *does* know his
>history (and who knows how
How would you know?
>history is written). But if it's not good
>enough for you, Joe, book yourself a trip to Italy and spend some time
>in the Vatican archives.
I don't need to, because I have all the documentation I need right at my
disposal here and now.
>>>>>>>[...] every one of the twenty-seven children under age ten brought by
>>>>>>>the police to the Catechumens was baptized.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>></quote>
>>>>>Again, there is something seriously amiss with this excerpted account.
>>>>>
>>>>>Nothing amiss with the account. But there is much amiss with the
>>>>>deeds.
>>>>There is something seriously amiss with someone who would rely on an
>>>>ignorant Jewish bigot for their information, too.
>>
>>>There would be, I agree
>>
>>Then why do you do so?
>
>
>I told you, I don't.
You are doing it now. You have not posted ONE verifiable claim re the Church
and the Jews. Did you know that Italy's Chief Rabbi saw fit to convert to
Roman Catholicism after the war? Why would he do that, Hilary?
>>> But I did not rely on anything from Richard
>>>Phillips or Joe Bruno.
>>
>>They both appear to be more intelligent than you. And more decent into the
>>bargain, too.
>I am not in the least surprised that you would find such kind words to
>say about two ignorant Jewish bigots - one of whom believes in
>Atlantis and vampires, and the other of whom relies on movies for his
>history.
Well, you believe the Church compelled Jews to undergo insincere baptisms.
>>>I relied on the research findings of a
>>>respected historian, David I. Kertzer - a man who in 1985 and 1990 was
>>>awarded the Marraro Prize from the Society for Italian Historical
>>>Studies for the best work on Italian history.
>>That's nice. Perhaps you have been misquoting him?
>
>Nope. And neither did Lebrun. But - based on your past performances
>- I'm sure we can count on you to do so when you read his book.
>
Well, lets wait and see, eh?
>
>>Or misinterpreting what he
>>wrote?
>
>Nope. And neither did Lebrun. But - based on your past performances
>- I'm sure we can count on you to do so when you read his book.
Time will tell. Let's hope to God that you were indeed misrepresenting what he
wrote.
Hilary Ostrov
<20020102195847...@mb-fk.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
(Debunks) wrote:
>>From: Hilary Ostrov hos...@telus.net
>>Date: 1/2/02 9:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: <o1g63usbs04jrv415...@4ax.com>
>>
>>On 02 Jan 2002 08:55:09 GMT, in
>><20020102035509...@mb-cg.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
>>(Debunks) wrote:
[attributions trimmed]
>>>>>>>>>>Nor does it support your *original* contention - which was to the
>>>>>>>>>>effect that proselytization of *anyone* in Israel is subject to a term
>>>>>>>>>>of 5 years imprisonment (a claim which had morphed from your earlier
>>
>>["yes it does", "no it doesn't" etc]
[...]
>>http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&rnum=1&selm=Gqvd3.167%24Xw4.11326%4
>0typ32b.nn.bcandid.com
>
>The story is most likely completely bogus.
No. That which is "bogus" is your claimed citation.
>And there is your idee fixe surfacing again. It is not "my" claim, but that of
>the Times, Hymers and the Jewish Currents.
Back to "Jewish Currents" again?! Oh, well, that's "revisionism",
folks ... recycle, recycle, recycle.
[yet another recycling.]
>>>This law was confirmed in the book by minister R. L. Hymers, "Holocaust II."
>
>>Would he by any chance be the baptist minister who (according to one
>>of his fans) provides "Proof that abortion is the real cause of
>>illegal immigration."? http://www.rlhymersjr.com/Books.htm
>>
>
>I don't know if it is or isn't, as I referred you to what was written in his
>book "Holocaust II." Probably is one and the same. So what. The man is
>opposed to abortion, and rightfully so.
You have a remarkably cavalier attitude towaards your "sources". But
it is the perfect complement to your shoddy "scholarship".
>>>So now you have two sources.
>>
>>No. We have a continuation of your failure to acknowledge that the
>>law applies only in the case where "material benefits" are offered as
>>inducement to convert.
>
>That is NOT what was written in the citations I posted. End of issue.
Yes, but your "citations" were bogus.
[...]
>>> the church does not and never did compel anyone to become
>>>baptized. The Catholic Church does not acknowlege insincere baptisms as
>>>having any validity.
>
>>Again, it does not now. But it definitely did in the not too distant
>>past. Deal with it.
>Your obsessions are not of interest to me, Hilary.
My reluctance to accept *your* word over those of legitimate
historians and scholars does not constitute an "obsession". It is,
however, an exercise of common sense.
>The Church has never
>assigned validity to forced baptisms and the entire suggestion is absurd and
>ignorant.
No. What is absurd and ignorant is your pretension to know more of
the history of the Church than can be found in the Vatican's own
archives.
[...]
>>> He's a respected historian
>>>>who backs up his claims with evidence.
>>>
>>>Well, where is it? You haven't produced any. Are you holding it back>?
>
>>I have no intention of typing in the whole of Kertzer's book in order
>>to accommodate your knee-jerk response to historical facts that don't
>>conform to your warped view of the world.
[...]
>Kertzer waltzed into the
>Vatican with one thought in mind: He was going to "prove" his ignorant
>pre-existing prejudice against Christians and Catholics in particular by
>"proving" the unproveable -
You are entirely wrong - as usual.
>that Catholicism is synonymous with antisemitism
>and that the Catholic Church lent succor to the Nazis in their persecution of
>the Jews.
That was neither his intention, nor his argument - as anyone with
adequate reading comprehension skills can readily see from the
excerpts I've posted and from the review by a Catholic scholar.
>>> Incidentally, when was the
>>>>last time you conducted research in the Vatican archives, Joe?!
>>>
>>>Why do I need to go into their archives to snoop for dirt?
>
>>LOL. Is that what you think they keep in the archives, "dirt"?!
>
>I think that is more representative of your opinions rather than mine, Ms
>Ostrov.
But I didn't call the Vatican archive material "dirt". You did. Nor
do I call examining the documentation that can be found there
"snooping": I call it "research".
>Your dear Kertzer had the silly notion in his mind that he was going
>to uncover such "dirt" in the Vatican archives.
If that's the way you want to look at it, fine. It's rather silly,
and completely unfounded. However silly and unfounded are definitely
par for the Bellingomatic course.
>well, prove that he succeeded
>in his endeavor.
His endeavour was not as you described it, but he did succeed. Btw ...
here are some more excerpts (from pages 7-9) you're going to love.
Kertzer is discussing Father Giuseppe De Rosa's 1999 book published on
the occasion of the 150th anniversary of the Jesuit journal, _Civilita
cattolica_:
<quote>
Father De Rosa notes with regret _Civilta cattolica's_ century-long
campaign against the Jews, observing that the journal only changed
course in 1965, in the wake of the Second Vatican Council. "It is
necessary, however," he adds, "to note that these [hostile articles]
were not a matter of 'anti-Semitism,' the essential ingredient of
which is hatred against the Jews because of their 'race,' but rather
anti-Judaism, which opposes and combats the Jews for religious and
social reasons." He then lists some of the charges that were
regularly made in the journal's pages: "that the Jews battled the
Church, that they practiced the ritual murder of Christian children,
that they had enormous political power in their hands to the point of
controlling governments and, above all, that they possessed great
wealth, earned by usury, and thus had incredibly strong economic
influence, which they used to the detriment of Christianity and
Christian peoples." Father De Rosa adds, quite correctly, that the
Jesuit journal was not alone in making such accusations, for they
filled the pages of many mainstream Catholic publications.
[...]
There is another uncomfortable truth that this official Church history
of relations with the Jews obscrues. The legislation enacted in the
1930's by the Nazis in their Nuremberg Laws and by the Italian
Fascists with their racial laws--which stripped the Jews of their
rights as ctizens--was modeled on measures that the Church itself had
enforced for as long as it was in a position to do so. Jews in the
Papal States were still being prosecuted in the nineteenth centruy
when caught without the required yellow badge on their clothes,
mandated by Church councils for over six hundred years. As late as
the 1850s, the Pope was busy trying to evict Jews from most of the
towns in the lands he controlled, and forcing them to live in the few
cities that had ghettoes to close them in. Jews were barred from
holding public office or teaching Christian children or even having
friendly relations with Christians. Church ideology held that any
contact with Jews was polluting to the larger society, that Jews were
perpetual foreigners, a perennial threat to Christians.
</quote>
>>Well, I have good news and bad news for you, little Mr. Expert.
>
>Flattery will get you nowhere.
>
>>The
>>good news is you got two letters correct. The bad news is it's a much
>>longer word. What you will find in the archives is (I'll spell it for
>>you slowly):
>>
>> d o c u m e n t a t i o n
>
>Great! When will you get around to posting any? How many times have I asked
>you already?
When you read the book, you will find on pages 299-344 (that's after
the Appendix and before the Index, btw) two (2) sections. The first
is called "Notes". It begins with a "Guide to Citation of Archival
Sources", and then proceeds to list the numbered notes for each of the
Chapters. The second section, which begins on page 329, is called
"References Cited" and is prefaced as follows:
<quote>
The following list consists of those published works that have been
cited in the text. It does not include any archival materials, nor
any newspaper sources, nor articles from the Catholic press, all of
which are cited in full in the notes.
</quote>
So, when you read the book, you will find that the citations for the
excerpts I quoted above can be found in notes 5 and 6 of
"Introduction". Happy reading, Joe.
>>And (this will, no doubt, come as a big surprise to you), archival
>>documentation is used as primary source material by reputable
>>historians when they conduct their research.
[...]
> But if it's not good
>>enough for you, Joe, book yourself a trip to Italy and spend some time
>>in the Vatican archives.
>
>I don't need to, because I have all the documentation I need right at my
>disposal here and now.
Earlier in this thread we had the following exchange:
<quote>
>From what you have posted, the man who authored this book is an ignoramous, who
>doesn't understand anything about the Catholic Church.
That is your opinion. I fully expect you to blindly hold to it,
notwithstanding all evidence to the contrary - as you always do.
</quote>
Thank you for living down to my expectations.
[...]
>>>>I relied on the research findings of a
>>>>respected historian, David I. Kertzer - a man who in 1985 and 1990 was
>>>>awarded the Marraro Prize from the Society for Italian Historical
>>>>Studies for the best work on Italian history.
[...]
>>>Or misinterpreting what he
>>>wrote?
>>
>>Nope. And neither did Lebrun. But - based on your past performances
>>- I'm sure we can count on you to do so when you read his book.
>
>Time will tell.
You already have - and you haven't even read it yet.
Joe Bruno
>>Here we see Hilary in her favorite role of soothsayer, telling
everyone in advance what they will do in the future instead of just
letting them be themselves and continuing the discussion. It would
appear Hilary envisions herself as the Canadian reincarnation of
Nostradamus.
>
> </quote>
>
> Thank you for living down to my expectations.
>
>>UH-OH! Madame Ostrov is dusting off the trite cliches in her attic
again. That one has been used so many times that the greasy
fingerprints on it completely obscure the title on the front cover.
>
> >>>>I relied on the research findings of a
> >>>>respected historian, David I. Kertzer - a man who in 1985 and 1990 was
> >>>>awarded the Marraro Prize from the Society for Italian Historical
> >>>>Studies for the best work on Italian history.
> [...]
>
> >>>Or misinterpreting what he
> >>>wrote?
> >>
> >>Nope. And neither did Lebrun. But - based on your past performances
> >>- I'm sure we can count on you to do so when you read his book.
>> The word on the street is that Hilary got this prediction by
reading week-old coffee grounds.
Joe Bruno
> >Time will tell.
>>I like that phrase-it has a strong hint of honesty about it,
something that is becoming very rare on alt.revisionism.
Joe Bruno
Coward Shiff Watch
applies:
<<<In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed
a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit
research and educational purposes only. - FAIR USE INTENDED>>>
On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 02:49:06 GMT, <gdaq2u4k357j6oges...@4ax.com>
Hilary Ostrov <hos...@telus.net> wrote:
>On 29 Dec 2001 02:22:05 GMT, in
><20011228212205...@mb-fz.aol.com>, deb...@aol.com
>(Debunks) gave us some old news when he wrote:
>
>>ISRAELI SCHOOL REGRETS BURNING NEW TESTAMENT
>>JERUSALEM, Dec 26, 01 (CWNews.com) - A Jewish school on Tuesday expressed
>>regret for holding a public burning of a copy of the New Testament, saying the
>>event was a demonstration for students against Christian proselytizing efforts.
>>
>>A spokeswoman for Orot, a public school in the Israeli town of Beit Shemesh
>>near Jerusalem, said a teacher held the outdoor book-burning for his
>>sixth-grade class in early December, destroying a Bible a missionary gave to a
>>pupil. "We regret that this incident occurred," spokesman Jordana Klein said.
>>"The intentions were not to criticize Christianity, but only to tell these
>>Jewish boys that they don't have to listen to the missionaries." Klein said
>>Orot pupils were regularly targeted by "aggressive" Christian missionaries
>>living in the Jewish state.
>>
>>The principal of the school had been summoned by Israel's Education Ministry
>>for a disciplinary hearing. "This is a grave matter and the ministry condemns
>>book-burning of any kind," a spokesman said. The school later said that if a
>>child comes to school with a Bible given to him by missionaries, officials will
>>tell him to take it home so his parents can decide what to do with it.
>>
>>Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel.
>>
>>END
>>
>>A criminal offense in Israel? Now, where have we heard that before?
:
>From you, of course. And you are just as wrong now as you were then.
Oh contraire Hilary! The following material proves "Proselytizing children is a
criminal offense in Israel"!
>So is the last paragraph of the article - or at least what purports to
>be the last paragraph. You haven't provided an URL, and I'm not about
>to take out a subscription to CWN in order to check its archives for
>your supposed source.
Here is the URL:
http://www.cwnews.com/news/getstory_test.cfm?recnum=17110&auth=subscriber
and DEBUNKS quoted the story exactly for the article does say at the end:
"Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel."
How about these articles concerning anti-Christic bigotry and activism in
Israel?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MessianicMessages/message/89
Message 89 of 135
From: "Marty Cohen" <MartyCohen@Q...>
Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 1:53 pm
Subject: Update from Israel
Shalom chaverim.
Here is an item that is causing some major concern among the Body here:
ANTI-MISSIONARY BILL RE-EMERGES
In this time of great political instability and desperation in Israel, it is
not surprising that the ultra-orthodox should grasp the opportunity to make
a fourth-round attempt at getting their Anti-Missionary legislation adopted.
(Israel already has legislation that prohibits soliciting to change religion .)
On 21 January, MK Rabbi Moshe Gafni (who introduced the original
Anti-Missionary Bill in January 1997) proposed this amendment to the Penal
Code: The distributor of a document by means of the mail, the fax, the
electronic mail or by any other means, that is, enticement to change
religion, whether directly or indirectly, without obtaining the prior
consent of the addressee thereto, is subject to three months imprisonment.
Thus any mail containing evangelistic material without the prior consent
of the recipient, would be illegal and a penal offence. ...
<end>
http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi/archives5760/kisisa/KSSalevlchm.htm
News
Lev L'achim's Fight Against Missionaries in Israel
by Moshe Schapiro
[...]
Two years ago, during Netanyahu's administration, missionary activities reached
such a fevered pitch that a special Knesset committee was convened to draw up
legislation that would outlaw "preaching with the intent to cause another person
to change his religion."
Netanyahu came under tremendous international pressure to vote against the bill.
The legislation was never passed.
However, all is not bleak. One organization in Eretz Yisroel, Lev L'achim, is
mustering its forces and finding equally ingenuous ways to counter the tactics
of these groups. Working in conjunction with The Committee for Rescue of
Immigrant Children in Israel, an organization based in England, Lev L'Achim runs
a wide range of anti-missionary activities nationwide.
[...]
It hasn't been easy, but Lev L'achim has managed to assemble and train a small
group of yeshiva students willing to go undercover and infiltrate the missionary
groups operating in Eretz Yisroel. Two to three volunteers are sent to each
community. The boys become friends with the group's members. Once they are an
accepted part of the group, they begin to monitor the group's activities.
One simple but effective tactic the volunteers employ is to rifle through the
mail. If they see a letter from someone new to the group, they return the
letter. If the group receives a shipment of messianic literature from abroad,
they return the shipment. If they hear that the group is going to stuff their
literature in a particular neighborhood's mailboxes, the volunteers contact Lev
L'achim. When the missionaries get to the neighborhood, they are greeted by a
group of kollel men, and the mail doesn't get delivered.
[...]
Lev L'achim is also in the forefront of stopping missionary activity hiding
under the guise of art. When the play "David and Batsheva" opened in Israel, the
organization discovered that funding for the production came from missionaries.
Lev L'achim organized demonstrations in front of the theater, at a cost of 5,000
NIS per demonstration, and the play, which had a messianic message, was forced
to cancel its scheduled tour.
Another tactic Lev L'achim uses is to bring a minor to one of the group's
activities. Although it is not illegal to try to get an adult to convert to
another religion, under Israeli law it is illegal to seek to influence a minor.
And so one messianic group may be closed down.
<end>
http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi/archives5760/vayetze/amission.htm
News
Police Not Protecting New Immigrants' from Missionaries
by Yated Ne'eman Staff
Charges that hundreds of Christian missionaries are exploiting the difficult
social and economic situation of new immigrants, and that the police are not
doing enough to protect them, were voiced by Adi Eldar, chairman of the Union of
Local Authorities.
Eldar made his charges in a letter to Internal Security Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami.
A spokesman for Ben-Ami said that the minister has not yet had time to consider
the issue.
Eldar told Yated that the social welfare departments of many local authorities
have forwarded complaints to the Union of Local Authorities about extensive
missionary activity among new arrivals. This activity often has a terribly
destructive effect on family life...
"Police must use every means available to prevent open missionary activity in
small towns," he said, stressing that this was not just a religious problem, but
a social and cultural threat as well...
At a recent meeting of the Knesset Interior Committee on missionary activity in
Israel, a representative of the police said that the U.S. administration has
been keeping a close eye on anti-missionary activity in Israel, and this has
severely hindered police from dealing with the problem in an effective manner.
The police representative also pointed out that the law forbids missionaries
from granting benefits to those they seek to convert and it also forbids
converting of a minor or pressuring a minor to convert.
<end>
Can everyone see the Pharisees have not changed for 2000 years?
>Of course, if proselytization of children was a "criminal offense" one
>would expect that rather than apologizing for the incident - and
>summoning the principal for a disciplinary hearing - someone would
>have alerted the appropriate authorities so that the perpetrator could
>be apprehended and dealt with accordingly.
>
>But don't let logic stand in the way of your willingness to smear
>Jews, Judaism and/or the State of Israel.
The facts speak for themselves and once again you're either in the dark or a
willing servile helot of the "anti-Christs." Take your pick!
>>Still care to deny it, Gehrig? Of course you do....I have a feeling their only
>>"regret" was being caught...
:
>No. Just because your only regrets for your behaviour here are when
>you get "caught" (in your case telling lies), doesn't mean that others
>conduct themselves in the same amoral fashion.
How did DEBUNKS lie? He told the truth and you are in denial as all the Gentile
dupes of the original anti-Christs are.
>>Most likely incidents like this are a common
>>occurrence in "democratic" Israel...
:
>No. Most likely Bellinger is talking through his Jew-hating hat -
>again.
He told the truth whereas you are attempting damage control for your masters.
Have you spent your thirty pieces of silver?
>hro
>=====================
>Hilary Ostrov
More to come. Stay tuned!
Doc Tavish
--
"For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries
will be able to withstand or contradict." Son of Man {Luke 21:15 RSV}
Fred Ziffel
Please note most of the following info is historical and is NOT a present
concern. There are still movements in Israel to have the following happen for
real.
FOREWORD July 27, 2003: How many people wonder why the State of Israel which
is the birthplace of Christianity would only have a minority populace of
Christians!? One would think the birthplace of a major world religious belief
would have many adherents. Israel today as it was ~2000 years ago has persecuted
Christianity and the State of Israel was founded on socialism by Ben-Gurion- an
admirer of all things communist too! See this archive:
http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=ISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=1g60hvoj0b21pn339...@4ax.com&lr=&hl=en
Subject: Palestine was Changed to a Socialist Jewish State in 1948 by Ben-Gurion
with Communist Soviet Union's Support
Message-ID: <1g60hvoj0b21pn339...@4ax.com>
Date: 12 Jul 2003 14:16:47 GMT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:55:59 GMT,
<jIlX7.40590$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> "Philip Mathews"
http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=ISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=jIlX7.40590%24Sj1.1...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net&lr=&hl=en
<philip...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>"Debunks" <deb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com...
http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=ISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com&lr=&hl=en
>
>> >A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from offering or receiving
>> >material benefits as an inducement to conversion; however, there have been
>> >no reports of its enforcement. On December 6, a law prohibiting some
>> >missionary activity and the dissemination of some missionary material passed
>> >a first reading in the Knesset.
:.
>> How interesting! So I was right all along, and Gehrig stands
>> self-convicted as a liar, once again.
:.
>No, you said it was against the law to proselytize children. The only
>prohibition is against inducements to conversion, hardly the same thing.
What do you think proselytizing is?
http://poets.notredame.ac.jp/cgi-bin/wn?cmd=wn&word=institution#searchform
Overview of verb proselytize
The verb proselytize has 1 sense
1. proselytize, proselytise -- (convert to another faith or religion)
Entailment of verb proselytize
1 sense of proselytize
Sense 1
proselytize, proselytise -- (convert to another faith or religion)
preach, advocate -- (speak, plead, or argue in favour of; ``The doctor advocated
a smoking ban in the entire house'' )
>As for the law which passed a first reading, which hardly makes it a law, I
>believe that was covered in the final two paragraphs of the other article
>which you snipped.
<<It still reveals the Neo-Pharisees' agenda.>>
Subject: ISRAELI SCHOOL REGRETS BURNING NEW TESTAMENT (Added Material)
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:26:12 -0600
Message-ID: <kaiq2ucdju3s7fvb9...@4ax.com>
From: deb...@aol.com (Debunks)
Subject: A Message for Gehrig and Ostrov
Message-ID: <20011228212205...@mb-fz.aol.com>
http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjust/200112/0313.html
(Link active July 28, 2003. Archived locally as: cin_0313)
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=17110
(Link active July 28, 2003. Archived locally as: cwn_17110)
DAILY NEWS BRIEF FROM CATHOLIC WORLD NEWS
FOR DECEMBER 26, 2001
ISRAELI SCHOOL REGRETS BURNING NEW TESTAMENT
JERUSALEM, Dec 26, 01 (CWNews.com) - A Jewish school on Tuesday expressed
regret for holding a public burning of a copy of the New Testament, saying the
event was a demonstration for students against Christian proselytizing efforts.
A spokeswoman for Orot, a public school in the Israeli town of Beit Shemesh
near Jerusalem, said a teacher held the outdoor book-burning for his
sixth-grade class in early December, destroying a Bible a missionary gave to a
pupil. "We regret that this incident occurred," spokesman Jordana Klein said.
"The intentions were not to criticize Christianity, but only to tell these
Jewish boys that they don't have to listen to the missionaries." Klein said
Orot pupils were regularly targeted by "aggressive" Christian missionaries
living in the Jewish state.
The principal of the school had been summoned by Israel's Education Ministry
for a disciplinary hearing. "This is a grave matter and the ministry condemns
book-burning of any kind," a spokesman said. The school later said that if a
child comes to school with a Bible given to him by missionaries, officials will
tell him to take it home so his parents can decide what to do with it.
Proselytizing children is a criminal offense in Israel.
<END>
A criminal offense in Israel? Now, where have we heard that before? Still
care to deny it, Gehrig? Of course you do....I have a feeling their only
"regret" was being caught...Most likely incidents like this are a common
occurrence in "democratic" Israel...
>Of course were Israel to take stronger measures to discourage proselytizing,
>even outlawing it, she would only be bringing herself more into line with
>many of her neighbors in the greater Middle East region.
--End of Debunks posting---
Tavish comment on Philip Mathews' apology for Phariseeism above:
Arguing about what other nations of the Middle East do as a defense for Israel
is comparing apples to oranges! None of them claim any sort of a relationship
such as a "Judeo-Christian Alliance" nor does the United States give them
billions of dollars in aid each year! Christianity did not spring from Islamics
rather it came from "Jews." Christianity of the New Covenant replaced the old
Jewish Old Covenant and has nothing to do with Islam!
I love how the dupes of the Pharisees stridently defend the original and true
anti-Christs!
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=vd01cvsh9ta3ep7b3crfru9ce2rb0snnls%404ax.com&rnum=1
Subject: Children of the Devil and Anti-Christ[s] Positively Identified Using
Scripture-- Check The Proofs For Yourselves! V2.0
Message-ID: <vd01cvsh9ta3ep7b3...@4ax.com>
How about this?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rivermail_list/message/955
(Link active July 12, 2003. Archived locally as: ANTI-MISSION)
Message 89 of 135
From: "Marty Cohen" <MartyCohen@Q...>
Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 1:53 pm
Subject: Update from Israel
Shalom chaverim.
Here is an item that is causing some major concern among the Body here:
ANTI-MISSIONARY BILL RE-EMERGES
In this time of great political instability and desperation in Israel, it is
not surprising that the ultra-orthodox should grasp the opportunity to make
a fourth-round attempt at getting their Anti-Missionary legislation adopted.
(Israel already has legislation that prohibits soliciting to change religion .)
On 21 January, MK Rabbi Moshe Gafni (who introduced the original
Anti-Missionary Bill in January 1997) proposed this amendment to the Penal
Code: The distributor of a document by means of the mail, the fax, the
electronic mail or by any other means, that is, enticement to change
religion, whether directly or indirectly, without obtaining the prior
consent of the addressee thereto, is subject to three months imprisonment.
Thus any mail containing evangelistic material without the prior consent
of the recipient, would be illegal and a penal offence. ...
<end>
http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi/archives5760/kisisa/KSSalevlchm.htm
(Link Active July 12, 2003. Archived locally as: KSSalevlchm)
[...]
[...]
[...]
<end>
http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi/archives5760/vayetze/amission.htm
(Link active July 12, 2003. Archived locally as: amission)
News
Police Not Protecting New Immigrants' from Missionaries
by Yated Ne'eman Staff
Charges that hundreds of Christian missionaries are exploiting the difficult
social and economic situation of new immigrants, and that the police are not
doing enough to protect them, were voiced by Adi Eldar, chairman of the Union of
Local Authorities.
Eldar made his charges in a letter to Internal Security Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami.
A spokesman for Ben-Ami said that the minister has not yet had time to consider
the issue.
Eldar told Yated that the social welfare departments of many local authorities
have forwarded complaints to the Union of Local Authorities about extensive
missionary activity among new arrivals. This activity often has a terribly
destructive effect on family life...
"Police must use every means available to prevent open missionary activity in
small towns," he said, stressing that this was not just a religious problem, but
a social and cultural threat as well...
At a recent meeting of the Knesset Interior Committee on missionary activity in
Israel, a representative of the police said that the U.S. administration has
been keeping a close eye on anti-missionary activity in Israel, and this has
severely hindered police from dealing with the problem in an effective manner.
The police representative also pointed out that the law forbids missionaries
from granting benefits to those they seek to convert and it also forbids
converting of a minor or pressuring a minor to convert.
<END>
Also see:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=qf7acvoa8hfn3bi2fttrvo00fhaoi2f8ip%404ax.com&rnum=1
Subject: Old Covenant Vs New -- New Covenant Replaces Old Covenant (Jews NO
Longer God's Chosen People & Entitled to "Israel" So Says the Scripture!)
Message-ID: <qf7acvoa8hfn3bi2f...@4ax.com>
Newly added July 12, 2003-- similar material:
(Special note July 12, 2003: Not all links may be active in these vintage
archives but I will do my best to get working ones.)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=35467b90.84794960%40news.tavish-central.net&rnum=1
Subject: >Anti-missionary Law In Israel (Modern Day Phariseeism Rearing its Ugly
Serpentine Head)< Date: 1998/04/29
Message-ID: <35467b90...@news.tavish-central.net>
An International Network of Pro-Life Missionaries
Life Coalition International,
P.O. Box 360221
Melbourne, FL 32936-0221
Phone (407)726-0444, Email: PatA...@phonetech.com
http://forerunner.com/lci/X0004_Czech_Republic.html
<No longer active July 31, 2003>
Czech Republic
World Congress of Families
by Gary Mc Cullough
Prague - A new "anti-missionary law has been proposed in Israel. The
law was passed in a preliminary reading before the Knesset by a margin
of 21 to 7. The law, which has now been referred to committee for
possible revisions before being submitted to a full Knesset, will have
to pass three readings before becoming law.
The bill makes it illegal "to hold, print, copy, distribute or hand
out any kind of literature in which there is any form of an effort to
persuade another to change his religion." On an even more ominous
note, some lawmakers, during the reading of the bill made comments
suggesting they intended to enact laws in the future which would
outlaw all "Messianic" organizations and activity in Israel.
Messianic Jewish and Christian groups in Israel have called for a
campaign to publicize the situation and to persuade lawmakers that it
could result in a public relations disaster for Israel.
The bill has caused deep foreboding as its terms are vague and
wide-ranging. It does not specify what kind of material is referred to
or what kind of possession would be illegal. Distribution could
include personal letters, gifts and bibles. Pray for the Christians of
Israel. (source- Middle East Digest)
A house panel approved a bill closing possible loopholes in the ban on
federal spending for doctor- assisted suicide. It is now illegal to
spend federal money for criminal offenses but with the Supreme Court
considering these cases it is necessary to be more specific or our tax
dollars will be used to kill the old as well as the unborn. (source
AP)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.churchstate.org/israel1.html
(link active July 12, 2003. Archived locally as: church_is)
Evangelism Threatened In Israel
Two members of the Israeli Parliament (the Knesset) have
introduced a bill that would eliminate evangelistic outreach in
Israel. Bill 174c bans the possession, distribution, import, sharing
or advertising of materials that attempt to induce religious
conversion. Any such material would be subject to immediate
confiscation if the bill became law.
The bill is specifically aimed at Messianic groups -- Jews who
practice the Jewish faith but believe that Jesus is the Messiah. It
would prohibit the distribution of the New Testament and any sort of
evangelistic literature. Although Prime Minister Netanyahu opposes the
bill, he has not made any sort of effort to stop its passage.
According to current estimates the bill has enough votes to pass.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.messiah.net/congressional.html
<No longer active July 31, 2003>
WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED IN ISRAEL'S KNESSET?
Moshe Gafni (Torah Judaism Party) and Nissim Zvili (Secretary General
of the Labor Party) have co-sponsored the following bill which will be
voted on by Israel's entire Knesset:
PROHIBITION OF INDUCEMENT FOR RELIGIOUS CONVERSION #174C
A. Whoever possesses contrary to the law or prints or copies or
distributes or shares or imports tracts or advertises things in which
there is an inducement for religious conversion is punishable by one
year imprisonment.
B. Any tract or advertisement in which there is inducement to
religious conversion will be confiscated.
WHAT DOES THIS BILL MEAN TO EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS AND TO MESSIANIC
JEWS?
1. Any Evangelical Christian, Arab Christian or Messianic Jew that
possesses evangelistic materials or verbally shares his or her faith
will be liable to be punished by one year's imprisonment. This could
also occur for passing out a tract or giving an Israeli a New
Testament. It could also include the act of photocopying a tract,
printing or handing a Jew any publication which promotes the Name of
Yeshua (Jesus).
2. If an Israeli or tourist produces or brings into Israel any
Evangelistic materials, whether in print, audio or video form, the
Government will confiscate all such materials immediately.
Although not written into this bill, Nissim Zvili, its co-sponsorer,
indicated his future intentions are to criminalize any institutions
and activites in Israel which have Evangelism as one of their main
intentions.
HOW MUCH SUPPORT DOES THIS AMENDMENT HAVE?
This "Anti-missionary" bill has passed its preliminary reading in the
Knesset by a vote of 21 to 7 and has been referred to committee for
possible amendments before being resubmitted to the full Knesset.
(Translator's note: The term "missionary" as used in this context
refers to ANY individual who engages in attempts to persuade others to
his personal religious viewpoint.)
This bill also has the backing of two very prominent Israelis: Finance
Minister Yoram Meridor and Ehud Barak, who may be the Labor Party's
next Candidate for Prime Minister of Israel.
According to the Israeli Government Press Office, which canvassed the
Knesset, 78 Members (out of 120 Members) stated that they WOULD
support the bill. This includes the active support of ALL the Orthodox
Jewish Parties totaling 23 Members.
Consequently, regardless of what Prime Minister Netanyahu, Israeli
Consulates or Government officials say, it is not likely that this
amendment co-sponsored by the Orthodox Parties and Labor will be
defeated unless a great worldwide outcry of "Human Rights Abuse" is
raised!
HAS THE PERSECUTION INCREASED EVEN BEFORE THE AMENDMENT IS PASSED?
Baruch Maoz, Chairman of Israel's Messianic Action Committee, writes:
"The mere proposal of the Law has already created an atmosphere...
Andrei Milesh, who completed his basic training with honors and was
assigned to a crack unit of the Israeli army, has been removed from
his unit because 'it was discovered that he converted to (some form
of) Christianity' - as if to say that Christians are second class
citizens who are not to be trusted in battle-worthy units of the army.
"Earlier on, the police (armed with an illegal search warrant) broke
into a meeting of Messianic believers in Kiryat Gat, confiscated
Bibles and Evangelistic materials which were returned only following a
stern protest from the United Christian Council in Israel. Other
materials confiscated in Haifa have not yet been returned.
"The Bible Society and Torch Christian Bookshops in Jerusalem have
been threatened by unknown persons that, unless they desist from
evangelism, they will be burnt down!"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.crossnet.se/sjoberg/E9704_6.htm
(Link active July 31, 2003: Archived locally as: E9704_6)
Proposed law could forbid Christian literature in Israel
Last year, a book written by the world evangelist Morris Cerullo was distributed
to a million households in Israel. Many of those who received the book were
orthodox Jews, who burnt the books publicly outside the Knesset, and began to
demand a law forbidding such evangelisation directed at Israeli households.
Morris Cerullo, who lives in the US, sent the books out without consulting the
messianic assemblies.
When orthodox opposition against the campaign grew, messianic Jews were taken to
the police for interrogation. Postal employees have been forbidden to distribute
Morris Cerullo's books, on pain of losing their jobs.
A bill to limit the freedom of the press has been proposed by two members of the
Knesset, Moshe Gafni (Torah Judaism party) and Nissim Zvili (Labour party). The
bill has passed its preliminary reading, and has been referred to committee for
possible amendment before being resubmitted to the full Knesset, where it will
need to pass three readings before becoming law.
This unexpected proposed law is directly contrary to the freedom of the press
which applies in most democratic countries. The bill, headed "Prohibition of
inducement for religious conversion", would provide that:
Whoever possesses contrary to the law or prints or reproduces or disseminates or
distributes or imports tracts or publicises things in which there is inducement
to religious conversion is punishable by one year's imprisonment.
Any type of literature or publication in which there is inducement to religious
conversion will be confiscated.
The messianic leaders have been encouraging their congregations to fast and
pray, and ask that Christians in other parts of the world should do the same. So
far it is not known when the bill will come up before the full Knesset.
<END>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.geocities.com/~hebrew_roots/html/hr-2-1-07.html
(Link active July 31, 2003. Archived locally as: hr-2-1-07)
~ Israeli Believers ~
~ Face Persecution ~
While many Believers hailed the election of Prime Minister Binyamin
Netanyahu last May, few realized that his election would bring a new era of
persecution upon those who hold that Yeshua is the Messiah of the Jewish people
(as well as the entirety of the world). However, this is what is about to happen
in Israel unless God intervenes to stop it.
The problem is a bill that has been introduced into the Knesset which is
referred to as; "Prohibition of Inducement for religious Conversion, 174C." The
bill reads as follows: "Anyone who possesses, produces, imports, copies or
disseminates material which may be used in any way to induce another to change
his religion is to be imprisoned for one year and the material is to be
confiscated."
The bill enjoys overwhelming support in the Knesset by both the right wing
religious parties and the left leaning Labor Party. The bill is co-sponsored by
Moshe Gafni (Torah Judaism Party) and Nissim Zvili (Labor Party). The bill is
currently in committee but is due to be voted on soon. Unlike the United States,
a bill in the Knesset cannot die in committee since Israel’s legislative system
requires that Committees present bills to the Knesset floor within six months of
the Committee’s approval.
Not only does the bill make written material about Yeshua illegal, it also
contains provisions that would make current non-profit Messianic Jewish
organizations in Israel, such as colleges, congregations and other organizations
illegal.
There is a knee-jerk reaction among most Israeli Jews (whether they are
observant, agnostic or atheist) against the proselytizing methods of many
Christians. This natural antagonism was ignited into a fierce flame last fall
when Morris Cerullo sent one million unsolicited books entitled, HaShalom (The
Peace) to Israeli households.
The reaction was immediate and vitriolic. Hundreds of Orthodox Jews
demonstrated by burning the books in bonfires. One Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi was
reported to have said that observant Jewish Postal workers should destroy the
book if they see it coming through their Post Office.
According to the Spring 1997 issue of the Messianic Times; "The Orthodox
definition of ‘missionary materials’ is anything that propagates the name of
Messiah Yeshua."
"The Orthodox community is preparing for action as soon as the proposed
bill becomes law. Two bearded men walked into the Bible shop in Be’er Sheva last
week, surveyed the books on display and said to one another in a manner meant to
be overheard; ‘The law hasn’t passed yet. We can’t do anything at this stage.’
They then intimated to the lady in charge of the shop that they ‘would be back’
and ‘take her away.
(Moaz Newsletter, June 1997).
<END>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.webcom.com/endtime/etforum2/Read/157.html
<Link not active July 31, 2003>
Last week the Knesset gave preliminary approval to a new
"Anti-missionary" bill. According to the Hebrew daily "HaAretz", the
bill, co-sponsored by Moshe Gafni (Torah Judaism Party) and Nissim
Zvili (Labor Party) would make the printing and the distribution of
materials intended to persuade individuals to change their religion
illegal. The bill was passed in its preliminary reading by a vote of
21 to 7. It will now to be referred to committee. After any committee
changes it must be resubmitted to the full Knesset and pass three
readings before becoming law. The bill also contains provisions making
the current non-profit Messianic Jewish organizations in the country
(i.e. assemblies, colleges and other organizations) illegal.
It sounds as if this bill attempts to effectively stamp out any
Messianic Jewish witness or even public existence in the country.
[Sounds exactly like what the Bolsheviks did 80 years ago! Tavish]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.ifa-usapray.org/onwatch-jul16.html
<Link not active July 31, 2003>
INTERCESSORS FOR AMERICA ONLINE
[ ... ]
ON FOREIGN FRONTS
ANTI-MISSIONARY BILL IN ISRAEL KNESSET OPPOSED BY NETANYAHU, PUSHED BY
ORTHODOX - Intense protest and pressure has built around the "anti-
missionary" bill which would outlaw overt evangelism in Israel. The
bill is in the process of a series of "readings" before being voted on
in Israel's parliament, the Knesset. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
and his media advisor have now taken public stands against the
measure. Orthodox Jewish parties have presented the bill as an
instrument of "national survival," putting intense pressure on Knesset
Members to vote in favor of passage. Protestant evangelism and an open
verbal and written witness of Christ as Messiah by Messianic Jews in
Israel would be outlawed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.imb.org/imb/news/story.cfm?id=90 <Link now dead)
Same text is now mirrored at:
http://home.att.net/~rivey/IsraelUpdate.htm
(Linak active July 31, 2003. Archived locally as: IsraelUpdate)
Released to Baptist Press: 6/13/97
Netanyahu promises opposition to "anti-missionary" proposal
By Marty Croll
RICHMOND, Va. (BP)--Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has
assured evangelical Christians his government will defeat a proposed
bill to outlaw certain methods of evangelism.
Dubbed the "anti-missionary law," it has triggered an outpouring of
opposition from inside and outside of Israel. It was introduced as a
private members' bill after the government committee that represents
Netanyahu's ruling coalition refused to support it. It passed in its
first of four readings with scarcely a fourth of the legislature, the
Knesset, voting.
"The government strenuously objects to this bill and will act to
ensure that it does not pass," Netanyahu said in a letter to Elwood
McQuaid, executive director of the U.S.-based Friends of Israel.
"Israel deeply values your support and that of Christians throughout
the United States," he added.
Netanyahu's statement puts to rest the question of whether he actually
intends -- on this issue -- to stand by internationally accepted
standards of free speech and the Israeli declaration of independence.
His resolve pits him against radical Jewish parties he needs in his
government coalition to maintain a ruling majority.
That still leaves open the possibility that, even without his support,
proponents of the restrictions could garner enough votes on the floor
of the Knesset to push the bill through.
Or, as many insiders believe, Orthodox parties will use the proposal
to test political waters, then later press such restrictions in the
courts. Or they could even present the bill again during a future
crisis of Netanyahu's government and require passage as a condition
for their staying in and saving Netanyahu's majority coalition.
The proposal touches the heart of a greater struggle in Israel today:
a religious war waged by a minority of Jews to control a largely
non-religious and secular-minded society. Another measure they have
introduced would strip Reform and Conservative Jews of the status that
Orthodox Jews hold within Israel.
Israeli Orthodox parties have threatened to withhold support from
Netanyahu -- and thus bring down his government -- if that bill is not
approved.
The anti-missionary law would alter Israel's penal code to prohibit
"inducement for religious conversion" and sets a one-year jail term
for "whoever possesses contrary to the law or prints or imports tracts
or publishes things in which there is an inducement for religious
conversion."
Further, the law would authorize the government to confiscate "any
tract or advertisement in which there is inducement to religious
conversion." An explanation accompanying the law states that "the
state of Israel, in the framework of the existing laws, is opposed to
any missionary seduction to convert religion ...."
"Missionary" means any individual who tries to persuade others to
change their religious viewpoint. The bill expands an "anti-bribery
law" already on the books outlawing the use of material gain to induce
a person to change religions.
Human rights advocates oppose the bill because it disregards Israel's
May 14, 1948, declaration of independence. In that document, written
in the years after the Holocaust drove Jews from Europe, Israel
promises to "uphold the full social and political equality of all its
citizens without distinction of race, creed or sex," and to "guarantee
full freedom of conscience (and) worship."
<END>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=361142ac.333190050%40news.daily-metropolist.net&rnum=4
From: clark...@daily-metropolis.net (Clark Kent)
Subject: Susan Cohen & Her Fellow Jews Mustn't Be Critical of Nazis if They
Condone Israeli Jews Jailing Christians!<<
Date: 1998/09/29
Message-ID: <361142ac....@news.daily-metropolist.net>
http://groups.google.com/groups?safe=images&ie=ISO-8859-1&as_umsgid=35A449DB...@smart.net&lr=&hl=en
Subject: Attn Lurkers: Self-Proofs Are NOT Proofs
From: Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net>
Date: 1998/07/09
Message-ID: <35A449DB...@smart.net>
<<SCROLL DOWN TO>>
> Click these links to see more attacks:
>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=3512be92.335354126%40news.flash.net&rnum=1
>"Anti-missionary Law In Israel (Modern Day Phariseeism
>Rearing its Ugly Serpentine Head)"
>Message-ID: <3512be92....@news.flash.net>
This one is about the Jewish government tying to make sure
missionaries can't lie to Jews about what religion they really
are. It's to protect the integrity of the Jewish religion.
I guess Scotty would rather they be killed outright, like in some
fundamentalist Islamic regimes.
[Susan aka Zenda Coven misses the point. The debate
is not about Islam- it's about how Jews treat Christians
and nothing more. July 9, 1998 Tavish]
<snip>
>MUST READ! Christians To Be Jailed In Israel:
>"Christians To Be Jailed In Israel"
>http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_324708577
>Message-ID: <887364490....@dejanews.com>
More about the anti-missioanry law, & Christians who insisted on
trying to break it.
[...]
~~End of Archival DejaNews Posting~~
Folks how do you like our little Pharisee Susan Cohen? How many more Jews do you
believe have her same sentiments? I wonder how many Americans will keep wanting
to send money to Israel and support them once all of this is known.
How did you like her statements of anti-Christian bigotry such as:
"This one is about the Jewish government tying to make sure missionaries can't
lie to Jews about what religion they really are. It's to protect the integrity
of the Jewish religion." and "More about the anti-missioanry law, & Christians
who insisted on trying to break it."? ... Aren't these words motivated by the
spirit of Phariseeism? Afterall did they not persecute and harass first century
Christians for the very same and exact reasons! Susan is a "Child of the Talmud"
hence her anti-Christic bigotry and intolerance.
Well Susie if your official view is: "More about the anti-missioanry law, &
Christians who insisted on trying to break it." then why do you and yours
condemn the Germans for enforcing their laws that your people were breaking? You
can't have two standards Susan! If is okay for one group to discriminate on the
basis of religion then you can't condemn another group for doing the same. No I
am not defending Nazis- I am comparing your views to their views.
Here is how Susan's spiritual forefathers dealt with Christians long before
there were any Nazis to have as scape goats to make excuses for the behaviour of
Jews. Notice they liked jailing Christians back then too as well as torturing
them- because the Christians "broke the law." The hypocrisy shows doesn't it?
....................................................
How First Century Christianity Was Treated by Jews:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=711ucv8tmute29h3gdcgds6ajmd7eekovr%404ax.com&rnum=1
Subject: The Most Heinous Murder Plot Ever Devised (For Your Archives &
Research) V2 R_0524
Message-ID: <711ucv8tmute29h3g...@4ax.com>
Date: 24 May 2003 05:30:10 GMT
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=k11ucvc1j4hl6s7av6qpr9882esa96oaav%404ax.com&rnum=1
Subject: Babylon the Great - Religious Persecution, Torture, Harassment R_0524
Message-ID: <k11ucvc1j4hl6s7av...@4ax.com>
Date: 24 May 2003 05:30:17 GMT
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=i31ucv4nvr6ehh6r2jgq8d7orrpfhm3j09%404ax.com&rnum=1
Subject: The Apostle Paul on Judaized Jews R_0524
Message-ID: <i31ucv4nvr6ehh6r2...@4ax.com>
Date: 24 May 2003 05:30:25 GMT
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=vd01cvsh9ta3ep7b3crfru9ce2rb0snnls%404ax.com&rnum=1
Subject: Children of the Devil and Anti-Christ[s] Positively Identified Using
Scripture-- Check The Proofs For Yourselves! V2.0
Message-ID: <vd01cvsh9ta3ep7b3...@4ax.com>
Date: 13 May 2003 05:29:00 GMT
Jews are just as hostile against Christ now as their forefathers were 2000 years
ago and if any "Christian Church" teaches a Judeo/Christian Alliance then it is
a sure sign that they have accepted their "thirty pieces of silver" from the
Sanhedrin.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=1ioifv01joma9fjqpa361host2smg0un2n%404ax.com&rnum=2
Subject: Today's Judaism is the Same Stuff Jesus Condemned ~2000 Years Ago
(Which Has Had Some Additions Made Since Then) V3.0 R_0625
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 03:51:27 -0500
Message-ID: <1ioifv01joma9fjqp...@4ax.com>
Tavish
---
"We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink containing
wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non-Jew after the seal of the
bottle has been opened." <http://www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html>
Information taken from: Is it Kosher, Rabbi E. Eidlitz and Spice and Spirit,
The Lubavitch Women's Cookbook Publications (July 12, 2001)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=kllghv4i1i04qsl4hc4uva984ad499imdg%404ax.com&rnum=1
Subject: Non-Jews: What is Taught About Them & How They are Viewed by 21st
Century Pharisees V2.1 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:23:59 -0500
Message-ID: <kllghv4i1i04qsl4h...@4ax.com>
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
Beaver Cleaver
Doc Tavish
Doc Tavish
Please note most of the following info is historical and is NOT a present
concern. There are still movements in Israel to have the following happen for
real.
FOREWORD July 27, 2003: How many people wonder why the State of Israel which
is the birthplace of Christianity would only have a minority populace of
Christians!? One would think the birthplace of a major world religious belief
would have many adherents. Israel today as it was ~2000 years ago has persecuted
Christianity and the State of Israel was founded on socialism by Ben-Gurion- an
admirer of all things communist too! See this archive:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/3d9a75bb20795c52
Subject: Palestine was Changed to a Socialist Jewish State in 1948 by Ben-Gurion
with Communist Soviet Union's Support V4-0 T_0728
Message-ID: <qfqie1pqg5595f1bb...@4ax.com>
Date: 28 Jul 2005 23:47:06 GMT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:55:59 GMT,
<jIlX7.40590$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> "Philip Mathews"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/bb783b0e5eb1afea
(Archived locally as: PM_Anti-Christ)
<philip...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>"Debunks" <deb...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/1ee279b0f3d056bc
>
>> >A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits anyone from offering or receiving
>> >material benefits as an inducement to conversion; however, there have been
>> >no reports of its enforcement. On December 6, a law prohibiting some
>> >missionary activity and the dissemination of some missionary material passed
>> >a first reading in the Knesset.
:.
>> How interesting! So I was right all along, and Gehrig stands
>> self-convicted as a liar, once again.
>
--End of Debunks posting---
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.ukrainian/msg/12da96e4d37455e6
Subject: Children of the Devil and Anti-Christ[s] Positively Identified Using
Scripture-- Check The Proofs For Yourselves! V2.0
Message-ID: <vd01cvsh9ta3ep7b3...@4ax.com>
Brief excerpt from the above archive:
CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL IDENTIFIED:
John 8:1-6,31,37-49 :: New International Version (NIV)
1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered
around him, and he sat down to teach them.
3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in
adultery. They made her stand before the group
4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"
6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing
him.
<<The above scripture shows who Jesus was addressing and it shows they were
trying to trap him in his speech-- a trait the Pharisee devils have honed over
the past 2000 years I might add!>>
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching,
you are really my disciples.
<<Only those Jews who believed in Jesus were looked upon favorably and those who
didn't are addressed in the following scripture. Verse 31 also proves that NOT
all Jews are the Children of the Devil as some people want to teach.>>
37 I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because
you have no room for my word.
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what
you have heard from your father."
39 "Abraham is our father," they answered.
40 "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things
Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the
truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.
41 You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is
God himself."
The Children of the Devil
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came
from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I
say.
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's
desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for
there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is
a liar and the father of lies.
45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't
you believe me?
47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that
you do not belong to God."
48 The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan
and demon-possessed?"
49 "I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you
dishonor me..
<<The above is irrefutable about who Jesus referred to as the Children of the
Devil.>>
RELIGION OF PHARISEES IDENTIFIED WITH PROOF THEY ARE HOSTILE TO ALL MEN:
NOTE: Saul later became the Apostle Paul after being "converted" on the road
to Damascus and here is his confession of what he did to Christians:
Acts 22:1,2,4,5-8,19,20 (English-RSV)
1[Apostle Paul speaks]"Brethren and fathers, hear the defense which I
now make before you."
2 And when they heard that he addressed them in the Hebrew language,
they were the more quiet. And he said:
4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison
both men and women,
5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders bear me witness.
From them I received letters to the brethren, and I journeyed to
Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to
Jerusalem to be punished.
6 "As I made my journey and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great
light from heaven suddenly shone about me.
7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul,
Saul, why do you persecute me?'
8 And I answered, 'Who are you, Lord?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus
of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.' ......
19 And I said, 'Lord, they themselves know that in every synagogue I
imprisoned and beat those who believed in thee. [YLT version: and I
said, Lord, they -- they know that I was imprisoning and was scourging
in every synagogue those believing on thee]
20 And when the blood of Stephen thy witness was shed, I also was
standing by and approving, and keeping the garments of those who
killed him.' ....
More of Apostle Paul confessing and repenting from his wickedness:
Acts 26:9-11 (English-RSV)
9 "I myself was convinced that I ought to do many things in opposing
the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
10 And I did so in Jerusalem; I not only shut up many of the saints in
prison, by authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to
death I cast my vote against them.
11 And I punished them often in all the synagogues and tried to make
them blaspheme; and in raging fury against them, I persecuted them
even to foreign cities.
{The Apostle Paul was really some sort of a vicious "Nazi" wasn't he
when he existed as a Pharisee named Saul? He did all of this
persecution in the name of Judaism! Proof below.}
Galatians 1:1,13,14 (English-RSV)
1 Paul an apostle--not from men nor through man, but through Jesus
Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead--
13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted
the church of God violently and tried to destroy it;
14 and I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my
people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.
Acts 26:1,4,5 (English-RSV)
1 Agrippa said to Paul, "You have permission to speak for yourself."
Then Paul stretched out his hand and made his defense:
4 "My manner of life from my youth, spent from the beginning among my
own nation and at Jerusalem, is known by all the Jews.
5 They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify,
that according to the strictest party of our religion I have lived as
a Pharisee.
1 Thessalonians 2:14,15 (English-NIV):
14 For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea,
which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the
same things those churches suffered from the Jews,
15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.
They displease God and are hostile to all men.
<<Tavish comment notice the Apostle Paul stated: "the Jews, who killed
the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God
and are hostile to all men.">>
ANTI-CHRISTS IDENTIFIED:
1 John 2: 18 "Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard
that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists."
1 John 2: 22,23 "Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is
the Christ [or Messiah]? These things I write you about those who are trying to
mislead you!"
1 John 4: 2,3 "You gain knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this:
Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the
flesh originates with God, but every inspired expression that does not confess
Jesus does not originate with God, Furthermore this is the antichrist's inspired
expression which you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world."
2 John 7,10,11 "For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not
confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the
antichrist. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never
receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a
greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."
That last sentence which says: "For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer
in his wicked works." is pretty strong advice!
<<Special Note: The scriptures apply to Jews regarding the Messiah/Christ seeing
how it was the scriptural prophecy the Messiah/Christ was coming to Jews and
them alone. No other group of people had aspirations or were waiting for the
Messiah/Christ-- only Jews were given the initial promise so the "anti-Christs"
was referenced to them and no one else! Of course a Gentile today can be against
Christ and Christianity such as communists and the Judases who have received
their "thirty pieces of silver" from the Neo-Pharisees today BUT the scriptural
admonition of John references "antiChrists" as being Pharisees/Jews. Any
"minister" who teaches Anti-Christ is some single person who appears in the
future is a liar and he teaches in opposition to what the scripture above
teaches.>>
Christ=Messiah:
John 9:21-23 :: New International Version (NIV)
21 But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don't know. Ask him. He is
of age; he will speak for himself."
22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the
Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ[1] would
be put out of the synagogue. 23That was why his parents said, "He is of age; ask
him."
Footnotes
9:22 Or Messiah
Matthew 1:16-18 :: New International Version (NIV)
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus,
who is called Christ.
17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen
from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the
Christ.[1]
18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged
to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with
child through the Holy Spirit.
Footnotes
1:17 Or Messiah. "The Christ" (Greek) and "the Messiah" (Hebrew) both mean "the
Anointed One."
John 4:24-26 :: New King James Version (NKJV)
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called
Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."
26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."
Back to what the true and original Anti-Christs are currently doing in
Marxist/Socialist Israel:
<end>
[...]
[...]
[...]
<end>
<END>
Also see:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.christian.lutheran/msg/e9d70a173ca03a3f
Subject: Old Covenant Vs New -- New Covenant Replaces Old Covenant (Jews NO
Longer God's Chosen People & Entitled to "Israel" So Says the Scripture!)
Message-ID: <qf7acvoa8hfn3bi2f...@4ax.com>
Newly added July 12, 2003-- similar material:
(Special note July 12, 2003: Not all links may be active in these vintage
archives.)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/6f74b6acb21d11a1
Czech Republic
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<END>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<END>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
INTERCESSORS FOR AMERICA ONLINE
[ ... ]
ON FOREIGN FRONTS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
By Marty Croll
<END>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/612f11948c295efe
From: clark...@daily-metropolis.net (Clark Kent)
Subject: Susan Cohen & Her Fellow Jews Mustn't Be Critical of Nazis if They
Condone Israeli Jews Jailing Christians!<<
Date: 1998/09/29
Message-ID: <361142ac....@news.daily-metropolist.net>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/a33ceb7d414bc069
Subject: Attn Lurkers: Self-Proofs Are NOT Proofs
From: Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.net>
Date: 1998/07/09
Message-ID: <35A449DB...@smart.net>
<<SCROLL DOWN TO>>
> Click these links to see more attacks:
>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.white-power/msg/76b61ecbdee53037
>"Anti-missionary Law In Israel (Modern Day Phariseeism
>Rearing its Ugly Serpentine Head)"
>Message-ID: <3512be92....@news.flash.net>
This one is about the Jewish government tying to make sure
missionaries can't lie to Jews about what religion they really
are. It's to protect the integrity of the Jewish religion.
I guess Scotty would rather they be killed outright, like in some
fundamentalist Islamic regimes.
[Susan aka Zenda Coven misses the point. The debate
is not about Islam- it's about how Jews treat Christians
and nothing more. July 9, 1998 Tavish]
<snip>
>MUST READ! Christians To Be Jailed In Israel:
>"Christians To Be Jailed In Israel"
>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.christnet.philosophy/msg/cec7597f21af978d
>Message-ID: <887364490....@dejanews.com>
[...]
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/c67d884d85bad07c
Subject: UPDATED The Most Heinous Murder Plot Ever Devised (For Your Archives &
Research) V2.5 R_0925
Message-ID: <m1p5nv4es86j78p5d...@4ax.com>
Date: 25 Sep 2003 13:23:49 GMT
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/72f2f6f3129d731b
Subject: Babylon the Great - Religious Persecution, Torture, Harassment R_0524
Message-ID: <k11ucvc1j4hl6s7av...@4ax.com>
Date: 24 May 2003 05:30:17 GMT
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/26ccb282e78d3d26
Subject: The Apostle Paul on Judaized Jews R_0524
Message-ID: <i31ucv4nvr6ehh6r2...@4ax.com>
Date: 24 May 2003 05:30:25 GMT
The first "Holocaust" was not Gentiles (Nazis) Against Jews
BUT was Jews (Communists) Against Christian Kulaks!!!
How Later Christianity was/is treated by Jews:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/7759bdc0ca737d99
Subject: Comparing Israel's "Anti-Christ Activism" to Other Middle East Nations
is NOT a Valid Comparison V2.5 R_0821
Message-ID: <upe9kvor1pdvm2ifa...@4ax.com>
Date: 21 Aug 2003 12:22:34 GMT
Jewish Led Bolsheviks Scalped & Crucified Christians by Philippa Fletcher
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.israel/msg/219f1a9a2ea94759
Subject: Bolsheviks Scalped and Crucified Christians -
Date: 1998/01/18
Message-ID: <34c17d0f....@news.smart1.net>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/ed596bea483952b6
Subject: Post-Soviet Religion (What Communists did to Christians) V3-0 T_0625
Message-ID: <4plub1hmr6bnr2mpl...@4ax.com>
Date: 27 Jun 2005 02:00:38 GMT
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/e364b24e60b8c04d
Subject: V3.0f Forefathers of the Soviet State and Anti-Christ Communism V2-0
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 21:34:42 -0500
Message-ID: <heacl09r40oic5bnu...@4ax.com>
Holocausts Jews have waged against non-Jews and Jewish denial of their
Holocausts against Christians/non-Jews:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/2737c3f9e9a137a2?fwc=1
Subject: 3 Major Jewish Organizations Engage in Holocaust Denial in Addition to
Their anti-Christic Christ Denial anti-Christism V5.1 T_0729
Message-ID: <brcke1lh0s6qacohs...@4ax.com>
Date: 29 Jul 2005 14:04:24 GMT
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.palestine/msg/5f236d361634c200
Subject: Today's Judaism is the Same Stuff Jesus Condemned ~2000 Years Ago
(Which Has Had Some Additions Made Since Then) V3.0 R_0625
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 03:51:27 -0500
Message-ID: <1ioifv01joma9fjqp...@4ax.com>
Compare the above to this post:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/86a22807544d3abf
Subject: 1st Century Vs 21st Century Judaism Compared to 1st Century
Christianity and 21st Century Christendom
Message-ID: <1cnv30tcnn0240r4j...@4ax.com>
Date: 28 Feb 2004 00:29:09 GMT
Tavish
---
"We are not allowed to drink any wine or grape juice, or any drink containing
wine or grape juice, which has been touched by a non-Jew after the seal of the
bottle has been opened... Certain foods which were completely cooked by a non
Jew (bishul akum) may not be eaten, even if the foods are kosher and are cooked
in kosher utensils." Information taken from: Is it Kosher, Rabbi E. Eidlitz and
Spice and Spirit, The Lubavitch Women's Cookbook Publications
http://web.archive.org/web/20030210042808re_/www.kashrus.org/kosher/supervis.html
(Archived locally as: archive-org-supervis)
-------------------------------------------
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.christian/msg/357721ed1bce892e
Subject: About Kashrus and Supervision - What Jews Teach Concerning non-Jews (In
Their Own Words Series)
Message-ID: <hsov309b4jpklr7bk...@4ax.com>
Date: 28 Feb 2004 00:37:58 GMT
vjp...@at.biostrategist.dot.dot.com
Just a freaking minute: the Christians in the Middle East were
overrun by Arab who either killed them or forced them to convert to
Islam. It is false to say the Middle Eastern Christians are Arab. The
Arabs invaded when they were already muslim. The original Christians
of the region were Hebrew, Greek or Syriac in ancestry.
As to prosletysation: most USA universities have rules
requiring any religious group that registers on campus
to "engage in non-prosletysing dialogue". So why can't
Israel, Russia or Greece have similar laws?
Israel and Greece are "ressurected" countries, with universal
militias and laws of return. They are entitled to preserve that which
defines them.
As to the USSR, Sevchenko (Breaking_With_Moscow) says the USSR
initially supported Israel because it thought that the majority of
Israelis coming from Russia (the Turks persecuted the Israelis as the
"next Armenians" because both had ties to Russia) would make Israel an
ally. However, Israelis chose freedom and the USA as an ally.
Vahakh Dadrian German Responsibility Arm Genocide 1996
p250 In December 1914, military authorities in Palestine ordered, in
compliance with the instructions of the IVth Army Commander and "Viceroy" of
Syria and Palestine, Cemal Pasa, the immediate deportation to Egypt of all
Jews holding Russian citizenship
p251 Cemal Pasa was reported to have declared that "because of Zionism,
Palestine might have to become a second Armenia"
p253 Eeven though the British attack in Gaza had failed, claiming
"military necessity" the district governor (mutasarrif) of Jerusalem, Izzet,
sought to evict the Jewish population of Jaffa and its environs. Those
without the means to relocate themselves would be transported (deported) to
the Syrian hinterland and be cared for by the government. As Friedman out it,
"With the memory of the Armenian attrocities fresh in their minds, the Jews
feared the worst"
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Fooey on GIU,{MS,X}Windows 4 Bimbos] [Cigar smoke belongs in veg food group]
The Chief Instigator
>Classic repost with revitalized links
...and the newsgroups are de-spammed again, as no one in the newsgroups you
abuse gives a good goddamn about a psychotic fat bastard Nazi in Bellville,
Texas.
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (pat...@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2005-06 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Chicago 5, Houston 3 (April 26)
NEXT GAME: Date/opponent/site TBA in August 2005
Sneekers
wrote:
>Classic repost with revitalized links
Bradbury: Nobody cares!
<Hug, HUGE clip>
Doc Tavish
Instigator <pat...@io.com> wrote:
>Doc Tavish <rhc-tavish@tavish-central> writes:
>
>>Classic repost with revitalized links
What I posted and which peeping tom Patrick Lee Humphrey can't refute so he
stoops to posting where I live in an attempt to intimidate me into silence:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/a9832ff4524f6c1d
Subject: Comparing Israel's "Anti-Christ Activism" to Other Middle East Nations
is NOT a Valid Comparison V3.0 T_0731
Message-ID: <6nbpe1hkig7o14gig...@4ax.com>
Date: 31 Jul 2005 11:30:08 GMT
>...and the newsgroups are de-spammed again,
Restored so everyone may see how Jews and/or their gentile dupes react to facts.
>as no one in the newsgroups you abuse gives a good goddamn about a psychotic fat bastard Nazi
Name call is all you have!
"[Sara Salzman] also said to "address the lie, not the liar," because Holocaust
deniers often make personal attacks when they run out of arguments."
http://www.coloradodaily.com/articles/2005/02/21/news/news02.txt
A non-debatable truth By ERIN FEESE Colorado Daily Staff
(Link active February 26, 2005. Archived locally as: CDCsaraCU)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say in like manner: "address the lie, not the liar," because anti-Christ
Christ deniers and their gentile Judases for allies often make personal attacks
when they run out of arguments."
>in <WHERE I LIVE DELETED>
Seeing how where I live keeps being brought up I will post where the unethical
and Publicly Censured attorney lives who made the info public in the 1st place:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am being harassed by having my confidential information being posted along
with death threats, forged child porn ads being posted which give out my address
etc., having phoney sex offender lists posted which give out my address, having
magazine and catalog subscriptions forged in my identity etc. I am also being
stalked by psychotics such as Patrick Lee Humphrey. FOR A FACT it was Yale F.
Edeiken and Yale F. Edeiken alone who subpoenaed my confidential info from my
ISP and made the subpoenaed info public-- now let him receive justice under the
Law of Moses:
Just as has been done to me and is still being done to me and solely because
of Yale F. Edeiken exclusively I will apply the LAW he claims to observe to him:
Leviticus 24:19-20 :: New International Version (NIV)
19 If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him:
20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the
other, so he is to be injured.
YALE F. EDEIKEN
885 COLD SPRING ROAD; APARTMENT 2
ALLENTOWN, PA 18103
610-435-9820
<Source: Pennsylvania State Attorney Registration>
If Yale does not like getting back in kind what he has dished out then he
should encourage his THUG allies to stop harassing me and invading my privacy!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yale F. Edeiken's PUBLIC CENSURE and criminal conviction are shown in full text
at this link:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.lawyers/msg/2f77a3ec0377ec81
Subject: Yale F. Edeiken PUBLIC CENSURE Text and Links V2.0
Message-ID: <ipqmb15sgvqt5i20u...@4ax.com>
"Where we're at, and all that
Dale and I can be reached at the following snail mail location: Patrick & Dale
Ann Humphrey 7500 Bellerive #1807 Houston, Texas 77036-3040.
http://www.io.com/~patrick/address.html "
The above listed in a GOOGLE Web Search:
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&num=10&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&c2coff=1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=7500+Bellerive+%231807&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=off
(Link active June 25, 2005. Archived locally as: PLHaddressGOOGLE)
Tavish
----Patrick Lee Humphrey = Documented Self Confessed Peeping Tom----
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.feminism/msg/729ac178ff1f8660
(Archived locally as: PatrickThePeeper)
Subject: Re: PATRICK "THE STALKER?"
Date: 1996/09/03
Message-ID: <50ht24$l...@anarchy.io.com>
---Sad, but true, but at least it'll be a bit easier than I thought to
encounter "Shawn" when I'm in Austin next month--if I'm out at night, just look
for anyone peeking into windows... Patrick L. Humphrey
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is what some experts say about Patrick's behavior:
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/issues/99/10.28/news.peeping.html
(Archived locally as: PLH_Voyeur)
Voyeurism at root of Peeping Tom incidents
CRIME: Cases uncommon on campus; recent arrest one of seven since 1997
By Linh Tat Daily Bruin Contributor Although everyone has heard the term
"Peeping Tom" before, most people may still be in the dark when it comes to
understanding the nature of this criminal offense. Many people may label a
person who secretly observes another undressing or in the nude as a Peeping Tom,
but they do not always consider that those who repeatedly commit this offense
may suffer from a psychological disorder.... <END> Try: http://tinyurl.com/8jj6w
http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2000/0responses/2000-0919.resp.html
(Archived locally as: 2000-0919)
http://www.usdoj.gov/osg/briefs/2000/0responses/2000-0919.resp.pdf
(Archived locally as: 2000-0919.resp.pdf)
...In November 1997, after reviewing police reports that implicated petitioner
as a suspect in a "Peeping Tom" incident that occurred in the vicinity of the
rape, NCIS reopened its investigation. Pet. App. 23a. Thereafter, the NCIS
office in Hawaii asked NCIS Special Agent John McNutt, assigned to the NCIS
office in Memphis, Tennessee, to interrogate petitioner... During that
review, McNutt learned that petitioner was being treated for diabetes and a
mental disorder.... <END>
MORE INSIGHT ON PATRICK LEE HUMPHREY, PEEPING TOM, AND STALKER:
~Why Patrick Lee Humphrey Always Sides With Anti-Christs - He's an Anti-Christ~
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.abortion/msg/f9ac4c8dfebe7f32
(Archived locally as: PLHanti-Christ_1)
Message-ID: <szkbsfn...@eris.io.com>
shi...@yahoo.com (Ruth Muraya) writes:
>please avoid using foul language when addressing issues relating to
>Jesus Christ else you will surely DIE!!!!.
We all have to face that eventually...why don't you let your alleged savior
speak for himself?
--PLH, I found Jesus! He was buried under the dustbunnies back of the couch
==============================================================================
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/ok.general/msg/9fd9722c6ea8e772
(Archived locally as: PLHanti-Christ_2)
From: pat...@io.com (Patrick L. Humphrey)
Message-ID: <szkr9mm...@eris.io.com>
Valerie Gould <sgo...@ionet.net> writes:
>I will continue to worship my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ anyway I please.
You can worship Tinky Winky, for all I care -- but this is Usenet, and idiots
like you don't have a _right_ to clog this newsgroup with your crap, no matter
what you think your alleged deity tells you... --PLH
==============================================================================
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.abortion/msg/bc6c43ccb4622044
(Archived locally as: PLHanti-Christ_3)
Message-ID: <szkemlk...@dillinger.io.com>
"millerbeers" <mille...@email.msn.com> writes:
>What do you mean by "death-cult"?
Well, what would you call a religion that makes such a big deal of its
supposed founder being nailed up and left to die, and crafts such a convoluted
morality that produces such marvels as suffering being deemed virtuous?
--PLH, think I'll stick to more common-sense notions than those
==============================================================================
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/utexas.general/msg/b3b6da4999f71738
(Archived locally as: PLHanti-Christ_4)
Message-ID: <szken0b...@bermuda.io.com>
"Actually, the way I look at it, if this Jesus fellow died for
our sins, why make his death meaningless by not committing a few of 'em? ;-)
--PLH, just helping some of the more devout churchfolks out"
==============================================================================
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.abortion.inequity/msg/bc37b24a422b47d5
(Archived locally as: PatrickRICE05 and PatrickRICE06)
Message-ID: <828s71$an2$1...@joe.rice.edu>
TerryG (terryg1...@my-deja.com) writes:
>There is nothing moderate about abortion so stop deluding yourself.
You have no authority to decide for anyone else what's moderate, so maybe you
should take your own advice for once, eh?
--PLH, having fun watching the latest cafeteria Christian with his
pathologically bloated ego waddle through here
==============================================================================
Patrick's wife is a waddler so he doesn't have much room to talk!
< "Thar she blows-- Dale the Whale" http://www.io.com/~patrick/vegas.html >
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/ac3892053e0a95cd
Subject: Patrick L. Humphrey-- A Dangerous Stalker? - How To Identify Stalkers
Info UPDATED LINKS S_0202
Message-ID: <4n4u10thkq0jntg82...@4ax.com>
Date: 3 Feb 2004 03:56:50 GMT
How Patrick L.Humphrey Avoids the Facts Contained in the Archive Above:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/18e38072659756be
Message-ID: <2b1020hnohd6v183t...@4ax.com>
References: <4n4u10thkq0jntg82...@4ax.com>
<szkhdy8...@fnord.io.com>
Date: 3 Feb 2004 20:45:36 GMT
Patrick Lee Humphrey: Facts about His TERMINATION From Rice University:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/58bf60a708d42cc3
Message-ID: <jjrv10h69n06h1h60...@4ax.com>
Date: 3 Feb 2004 20:29:17 GMT
>--
> Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (pat...@io.com) Houston, Texas
> chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2005-06 Houston Aeros)
> LAST GAME: Chicago 5, Houston 3 (April 26)
> NEXT GAME: Date/opponent/site TBA in August 2005
Doc Tavish
Sneekers <coadvi...@mail.com> wrote:
>NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 07:04:24 -0500
>From: Sneekers <coadvi...@mail.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>Subject: Re: Comparing Israel's "Anti-Christ Activism" to Other Middle East Nations is NOT a Valid Comparison V3.0 T_0731
>Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:03:49 -0400
>Message-ID: <7q3se1laifr5ad3o5...@4ax.com>
>References: <lycX7.39979$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
<20011229024756...@mb-fz.aol.com>
<jIlX7.40590$Sj1.17...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
<6nbpe1hkig7o14gig...@4ax.com>
>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 2.0/32.652
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Lines: 9
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.96.181.220
==================================================
=== VisualRoute report on 01-Aug-05 8:58:55 AM ===
==================================================
Report for 65.96.181.220 [c-65-96-181-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net]
Analysis: '65.96.181.220' [c-65-96-181-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] was found in 18
hops (TTL=107).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Hop | IP Address | Node Name | Location | Network |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 8 | 12.122.10.89 | tbr2-cl6.sl9mo.ip.att.net | St. Louis, MO, USA | ?12.122.10.0 |
| 9 | 12.122.10.45 | tbr2-cl7.cgcil.ip.att.net | Chicago, IL, USA | ?12.122.10.0 |
| 10 | 12.122.10.105 | tbr2-cl5.cb1ma.ip.att.net | Cambridge, MA, USA | ?12.122.10.0 |
| 11 | 12.123.40.213 | gar13-p370.cb1ma.ip.att.net | Cambridge, MA, USA | ?12.123.40.0 |
| 12 | 12.118.88.6 | - | | ?12.118.88.0 |
| 13 | 68.87.144.54 | 10g-9-1-ur01.brookline.ma.boston.comcast.net | | ?68.87.144.0 |
| 14 | 68.87.144.58 | 10g-8-3-ur01.boston.ma.boston.comcast.net | Boston, MA, USA | ?68.87.144.0 |
| 15 | 68.87.145.50 | 10g-9-1-ur02.boston.ma.boston.comcast.net | Boston, MA, USA | ?68.87.145.0 |
| 16 | 68.87.144.66 | 10g-9-2-ur01.cambridge.ma.boston.comcast.net | Cambridge, MA, USA | ?68.87.144.0 |
| 17 | 68.87.151.154 | - | | ?68.87.151.0 |
| 18 | 65.96.181.220 | c-65-96-181-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net | | ?65.96.181.0 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roundtrip time to 65.96.181.220, average = 189ms, min = 186ms, max = 200ms --
01-Aug-05 8:58:55 AM
Trying 65.96.181 at ARIN
Comcast Cable Communications Holdings, Inc. BOSTON-8 (NET-65-96-0-0-2)
65.96.0.0 - 65.96.255.255
# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2005-07-31 19:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.
>X-Complaints-To: ab...@comcast.net
>X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dm...@comcast.net
>X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
>X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
>X-Postfilter: 1.3.32
>Path: news5.uncensored-news.com!galaxy.uncensored-news.com!feed.uncensored-news.com!
>news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!
>newscon06.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!local01.nntp.dca.giganews.com!
>nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
>Xref: news5.uncensored-news.com alt.revisionism:1576249
>
>On 31 Jul 2005 11:30:08 GMT, Doc Tavish <rhc-tavish@tavish-central>
>wrote:
>
>>Classic repost with revitalized links
>
>Bradbury: Nobody cares!
Evidently you do seeing how you spent time to respond!
><Hug, HUGE clip>
Can't refute what I posted heh? Typical Pharisee response to hard facts!
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/a9832ff4524f6c1d
Subject: Comparing Israel's "Anti-Christ Activism" to Other Middle East Nations
is NOT a Valid Comparison V3.0 T_0731
Message-ID: <6nbpe1hkig7o14gig...@4ax.com>
Date: 31 Jul 2005 11:30:08 GMT
Tavish
How First Century Christianity Was Treated by Jews:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/c67d884d85bad07c
Subject: UPDATED The Most Heinous Murder Plot Ever Devised (For Your Archives &
Research) V2.5 R_0925
Message-ID: <m1p5nv4es86j78p5d...@4ax.com>
Date: 25 Sep 2003 13:23:49 GMT
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/72f2f6f3129d731b
Subject: Babylon the Great - Religious Persecution, Torture, Harassment R_0524
Message-ID: <k11ucvc1j4hl6s7av...@4ax.com>
Date: 24 May 2003 05:30:17 GMT
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/26ccb282e78d3d26
Subject: The Apostle Paul on Judaized Jews R_0524
Message-ID: <i31ucv4nvr6ehh6r2...@4ax.com>
Date: 24 May 2003 05:30:25 GMT
The first "Holocaust" was not Gentiles (Nazis) Against Jews
BUT was Jews (Communists) Against Christian Kulaks!!!
How Later Christianity was/is treated by Jews:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.revisionism/msg/a9832ff4524f6c1d
Subject: Comparing Israel's "Anti-Christ Activism" to Other Middle East Nations
is NOT a Valid Comparison V3.0 T_0731
Message-ID: <6nbpe1hkig7o14gig...@4ax.com>
Date: 31 Jul 2005 11:30:08 GMT
Jewish Led Bolsheviks Scalped & Crucified Christians by Philippa Fletcher
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.israel/msg/219f1a9a2ea94759
Subject: Bolsheviks Scalped and Crucified Christians -
Date: 1998/01/18
Message-ID: <34c17d0f....@news.smart1.net>
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/ed596bea483952b6
Subject: Post-Soviet Religion (What Communists did to Christians) V3-0 T_0625
Message-ID: <4plub1hmr6bnr2mpl...@4ax.com>
Date: 27 Jun 2005 02:00:38 GMT
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/e364b24e60b8c04d
Subject: V3.0f Forefathers of the Soviet State and Anti-Christ Communism V2-0
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 21:34:42 -0500
Message-ID: <heacl09r40oic5bnu...@4ax.com>
Holocausts Jews have waged against non-Jews and Jewish denial of their
Holocausts against Christians/non-Jews:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.nationalism.white/msg/2737c3f9e9a137a2?fwc=1
Subject: 3 Major Jewish Organizations Engage in Holocaust Denial in Addition to
Their anti-Christic Christ Denial anti-Christism V5.1 T_0729
Message-ID: <brcke1lh0s6qacohs...@4ax.com>
Date: 29 Jul 2005 14:04:24 GMT
Sneekers
wrote:
>On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:03:49 -0400, <7q3se1laifr5ad3o5...@4ax.com>
>Sneekers <coadvi...@mail.com> wrote:
[...]
WOW! Oh my god--I am soo frightened. I made my general whereabouts
already known and the super IP tracing Slueth Fatbury found it--what
an amazing (obese) net-detective!
(Any idiot can run a whois, dipshit. It doesn;t mean you'll pin point
the loaction of the poster, that way.) :-P
[...]
>>On 31 Jul 2005 11:30:08 GMT, Doc Tavish <rhc-tavish@tavish-central>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Classic repost with revitalized links
>>
>>Bradbury: Nobody cares!
>
>Evidently you do seeing how you spent time to respond!
Seconds, Fatbury--seconds! It pissed you off enough to embarass
yourself--AGAIN!
>><Hug, HUGE clip>
>
>Can't refute what I posted heh?
The stench of stupidity was too much to bear.
Sara Salzman
Sneekers <coadvi...@mail.com> wrote:
And he STILL hasn't figured it out yet... I keep getting closer and
closer.
Sara
--
The Jews may think all people are stupid when I reality the are watch ever
move you people make.
-- Kurt Knoll.
James Fenimoore
I live in Austin and I haven't smelled you or heard you squealing
yet so you can't be too close.
The Chief Instigator
>Bradbury: Nobody cares!
><Huge, HUGE clip>
...and Bradbury's definitely Nobody! ;-)
The Chief Instigator
R. Scott Bradbury <rhc-tavish@tavish-central> writes:
>On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:03:49 -0400, <7q3se1laifr5ad3o5...@4ax.com>
>Sneekers <coadvi...@mail.com> wrote:
[Fatbury's stalking attempt]
>>On 31 Jul 2005 11:30:08 GMT, Doc Tavish <rhc-tavish@tavish-central>
>>wrote:
>>>Classic repost with revitalized links
>>Bradbury: Nobody cares!
>Evidently you do seeing how you spent time to respond!
Evidently you care enough to stalk people who dare to point out your foaming
insanity, Blubberbury.
>><Hug, HUGE clip>
>Can't refute what I posted heh? Typical Pharisee response to hard facts!
You can't PROVE what you posted, Blob of Bellville. I'll bet your life on
that fact.
The Chief Instigator
>> [...]
>> [...]
>> >>Bradbury: Nobody cares!
>> >><Hug, HUGE clip>
Is that a surprise? ;-)
The Chief Instigator
>On 31 Jul 2005 22:41:19 -0500, <szkslxu...@eris.io.com> The Chief
>Instigator <pat...@io.com> wrote:
>>R. Scott Bradbury <rhc-tavish@tavish-central> writes:
>>>Classic repost with revitalized links
>What I posted and which peeping tom Patrick Lee Humphrey can't refute so he
>stoops to posting where I live in an attempt to intimidate me into silence:
You can't prove it, Blimp of Bellville...and intimidate YOU into silence?
Your raving is the best thing that can happen, as it shows a wide audience
just what a flaming fruitcake you are. I give you the rope, and you wrap it
around your fat neck and jump. Keep up the good work.
USNSM
can do is name call. Considering your wife is a lot more obese than
Tavish is, that doesn't give you much room does it?
USNSM
Salzman going there would pollute it.
June Cleaver
Bakery. ;-)
I'll wager I drink enough coffee to earn myself a mug on the wall with
a golden engraving of my name. (I am a part of a society where coffee
is a religion.)
Sneekers
wrote:
>(Newsgroup abuse repaired)
>
>R. Scott Bradbury <rhc-tavish@tavish-central> writes:
>
>>On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:03:49 -0400, <7q3se1laifr5ad3o5...@4ax.com>
>>Sneekers <coadvi...@mail.com> wrote:
>
>[Fatbury's stalking attempt]
>
>>>On 31 Jul 2005 11:30:08 GMT, Doc Tavish <rhc-tavish@tavish-central>
>>>wrote:
>
>>>>Classic repost with revitalized links
>
>>>Bradbury: Nobody cares!
>
>>Evidently you do seeing how you spent time to respond!
>
>Evidently you care enough to stalk people who dare to point out your foaming
>insanity, Blubberbury.
And FATBURY claims you stalk him.
Sneekers
;-) It doesn't take much to annoy Bradbury. I wonder if, by the time I
get to Patrick's and Dale's territory, he'll have fixed that broken
window.
The Chief Instigator
Considering you have no idea what Dale looks like (people change, whether you
like it or not), maybe you should go back to smoking crack. It'd make you act
saner.
The Chief Instigator
>When I come to visit you and Dale, Patrick--let's go to Newman's
>Bakery. ;-)
I'll drink to that. (Diet Sprite. :-)
>I'll wager I drink enough coffee to earn myself a mug on the wall with
>a golden engraving of my name. (I am a part of a society where coffee
>is a religion.)
Could you ship some of that home so the Patriots can crash and burn this
season? (This *is* Texans country, after all. ;-)
The Chief Instigator
>>(Newsgroup abuse repaired)
>>[Fatbury's stalking attempt]
>>>>Bradbury: Nobody cares!
...while continuing to ignore being outed by his mentor Don Ellis, go figure.
Doc Tavish
Instigator <pat...@io.com> wrote:
>USNSM <us...@jointhe.usnsm.org> writes:
>
>>I think it shows the high level of intelligence of Tavish while all you can do
>>is name call. Considering your wife is a lot more obese than Tavish is, that
>>doesn't give you much room does it?
>
>Considering you have no idea what Dale looks like (people change, whether you
>like it or not)
She's put on more weight you mean.
Tavish
_______________________________________________________________________________
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Doc Tavish wrote
in message <r6n1f1dl4bfbkvuj1...@4ax.com>:
>On 03 Aug 2005 01:10:43 -0500, <szkpssv...@eris.io.com> The Chief
>Instigator <pat...@io.com> wrote:
>>USNSM <us...@jointhe.usnsm.org> writes:
>>>I think it shows the high level of intelligence of Tavish while all you can do
>>>is name call. Considering your wife is a lot more obese than Tavish is, that
>>>doesn't give you much room does it?
>>Considering you have no idea what Dale looks like (people change, whether you
>>like it or not)
>She's put on more weight you mean.
And you know this ... how?
The Chief Instigator
>On 03 Aug 2005 01:10:43 -0500, <szkpssv...@eris.io.com> The Chief
>Instigator <pat...@io.com> wrote:
>>USNSM <us...@jointhe.usnsm.org> writes:
>>>I think it shows the high level of intelligence of Tavish while all you can
>>>do is name call. Considering your wife is a lot more obese than Tavish is,
>>>that doesn't give you much room does it?
>>Considering you have no idea what Dale looks like (people change, whether you
>>like it or not)
>She's put on more weight you mean.
No, your head's put on more weight from all that fat between your ears. Tell
us another funny story about what's on her TDL.
Allan Matthews
"Sieg Heil" Scottie is always gaining weight, so, in his stupidity, he
just assumes everyone else is too.
allan
--
=========================================
"I carry my weight like a quarterback"
- the morbidly obese Bradbury
=========================================
http://allan.matthews.name