Old Covenant Vs New -- New Covenant Replaces Old Covenant (Jews NO Longer God's Chosen People & Entitled to "Israel" So Says the Scripture!)
Braveheart MacTavish
"CLASSIC DOC TAVISH REPOST" It is now time to present this vital material again
to the shame of the Churches of Christendom who still teach the lie that Jews
are the Chosen People in direct contradiction to what the New Covenant teaches.
Look for yourselves people-- look for yourselves!
Tavish
Xref:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=4ec17voucam2q39154je59emp6hei6mrmf%404ax.com&rnum=1
Subject: Old Covenant Vs New -- New Covenant Replaces Old Covenant aka Jews NO
Longer God's Chosen People So Says the Scripture! R_0313
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:38:59 -0600
Message-ID: <4ec17voucam2q3915...@4ax.com>
On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 03:47:19 GMT,
<b78D6.18307$k04.3...@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com> "Ray and Mary"
<Droui...@home.com> wrote:
>> > The Jews are God's chosen people.
:
>> They are NOT God's Chosen People. They lost that distinction long ago.
>> Care to deny what the Bible says Ray?
:
>Are you saying that God goes back on his promises? Are you saying that God
>would break his promise with Abraham?
God does not go back on his promises OR his warnings. Jews did not heed the
warning given in 1Kings and as a result they lost their claim to the kingdom.
Are you now going to say God's Son lied when he said the following or the
Apostle Paul for that matter concerning what God warned in 1Kings?
1 Kings 9:3-9 (English-RSV):
3 And the LORD said to him [King Solomon], "I have heard your prayer and
your supplication, which you have made before me; I have
consecrated this house which you have built, and put my name there for
ever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time.
4 And as for you, if you will walk before me, as David your father walked,
with integrity of heart and uprightness, doing according to all that I
have commanded you, and keeping my statutes and my
ordinances,
5 then I will establish your royal throne over Israel for ever, as I
promised David your father, saying, 'There shall not fail you a man upon
the throne of Israel.'
The warning.
6 But if you turn aside from following me, you or your children, and do
not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but
go and serve other gods and worship them,
7 then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and
the house which I have consecrated for my name I will cast out of my
sight; and Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples.
8 And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone passing by it will
be astonished, and will hiss; and they will say, 'Why has the LORD done
thus to this land and to this house?'
9 Then they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God who brought
their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and
worshiped them and served them; therefore the LORD has brought all this
evil upon them.'"
Here is Jesus foretelling of the current temple destruction and the
casting off of the Jews who presumed to still have G-d's approval:
Matthew 21:33-46 (English-RSV)
33 [Jesus said] "Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted
a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a wine press in it, and
built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country.
34 When the season of fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the
tenants, to get his fruit;
35 and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and
stoned another.
36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the
same to them.
37 Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, 'This is the
heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.'
39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40
When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those
tenants?"
41 They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and
let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in
their seasons."
42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: 'The very
stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner; this
was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you
and given to a nation producing the fruits of it."
44 _
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they
perceived that he was speaking about them.
46 But when they tried to arrest him, they feared the multitudes, because
they held him to be a prophet.
Yes, Jesus foretold the Kingdom being ripped away from "The Chosen[TM]"
and they knew that he was talking about them too! The nation that will be
producing the fruits are the Gentiles and any Jew that believes in the
Son.
As for the destruction of the ones that killed the Son what did the
prophecy in 1 Kings 9: 3-9 say? It said: "... then I will cut off Israel
from the land which I have given them; and the house which I have
consecrated for my name I will cast out of my sight; and Israel will
become a proverb and a byword among all peoples. And this house will become a
heap of ruins; everyone passing by it will be astonished, and will hiss; and
they will say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?'
What did Jesus say regarding the temple becoming ruins?
Matthew 24:1,2 (English-RSV)
1 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to
point out to him the buildings of the temple.
2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to
you, there will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be
thrown down."
As we all know the temple has been in ruins since 70 AD. This should be
obvious that the Pharisees and their descendants did not have God's favor
and to this very hour do not have G-d's favor!
Don't forget:
Romans 11
7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect
did. The others were hardened,
8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could
not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block
and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent
forever."
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!
Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to
make Israel envious.
12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means
riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
Jews are no longer the chosen and the temple being in ruins is testament to it!
BTW
Colossians 3
11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian,
Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves
with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
1 Peter 2
1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and
slander of every kind.
2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up
in your salvation,
3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
4 As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and
precious to him--
5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a
holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus
Christ.
6 For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious
cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not
believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
8 and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."
They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were
destined for.
9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people
belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of
darkness into his wonderful light.
Who are God's Chosen People today Ray? Anyone! Whether Jew or non-Jew but they
must believe in the Son and what he taught.
>The new covenant doesn't cancel the old one.
Your opinion which you have no Biblical support as the following scriptures
show.
>It adds to it.
Where in the Bible does it say that Ray? No where. This is what the Bible says
about the Old Vs the New.
Hebrews 8
6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant
of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better
promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would
have been sought for another.
8 But God found fault with the people and said : "The time is coming, declares
the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the
house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took
them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful
to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,
declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their
hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know
the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the
greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete;
Hebrews 9
1 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly
sanctuary.
2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table
and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place.
3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place,
11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already
here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not
man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.
12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he
entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained
eternal redemption.
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those
who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he
has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the
first covenant.
Covenant of Moses (Law) done away with the Covenant of Christ (Faith).
Galatians 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for
it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the
Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of
the Spirit.
15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set
aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in
this case.
16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not
say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one
person, who is Christ.
23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until
faith should be revealed.
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified
by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Galatians 4
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law
says?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the
other by the free woman.
23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the
free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two
covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be
slaves: This is Hagar.
25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present
city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
Galatians 5
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not
let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised,
Christ will be of no value to you at all.
3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is
obligated to obey the whole law.
4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you
have fallen away from grace.
5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which
we hope.
><Snipped a fine example of the way that anti-Sematists twist the bible in
>order to justify their hate>
What hate? What anti-Semitism? It is not my fault that you're unreceptive...
~~End of GOOGLE Archival Excerpt~~
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=8spror01p27%40news2.newsguy.com&rnum=1
Subject: G-d's Will - Jews No Longer OWN The Land Israel
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:27:25 GMT
Message-ID: <8spro...@news2.newsguy.com>
(Excerpt)
On 31-May-1999, dlt...@ix.netcom.com (dltjxx) "Debora" wrote:
> From: dlt...@ix.netcom.com (dltjxx)
> Subject: Re: Jews Go Home!
> Date: 31 May 1999 07:29:47 GMT
> Organization: Netcom
:
> >Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.nett> wrote:
> >>We are home. You're the invader.
:
> >Stop the illusions. Go back to Krakow. It's our land. Forever.
> >The invadors are you jewish fanatics who invaded OUR land in 1948.
> >I wish those ships sank before they reached Yafa.
> >Hani
:
> Please specify how the half million Jews resident in Israel in 1948 are
> invaders of the land given to them.
Who gave "Jews" the land in 1948? If you say G-d then you are wrong! G-d
has thoroughly dispossessed you of the land that you claim as YOURS. The
Temple being in ruins for nearly two thousand years is tantamount to the
fact as spoken:
THE TEMPLE INUAGURATION AND GOD'S STATEMENT
1 Kings 9:3-9 (English-RSV):
3 And the LORD said to him [King Solomon], "I have heard your prayer and
your supplication, which you have made before me; I have
consecrated this house which you have built, and put my name there for
ever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time.
4 And as for you, if you will walk before me, as David your father walked,
with integrity of heart and uprightness, doing according to all that I
have commanded you, and keeping my statutes and my
ordinances,
5 then I will establish your royal throne over Israel for ever, as I
promised David your father, saying, 'There shall not fail you a man upon
the throne of Israel.'
6 But if you turn aside from following me, you or your children, and do
not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but
go and serve other gods and worship them,
7 then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and
the house which I have consecrated for my name I will cast out of my
sight; and Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples.
8 And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone passing by it will
be astonished, and will hiss; and they will say, 'Why has the LORD done
thus to this land and to this house?'
9 Then they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God who brought
their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and
worshiped them and served them; therefore the LORD has brought all this
evil upon them.'"
Here is Jesus foretelling of the current temple destruction and the
casting of the Jews who presumed to still have G-d's approval:
Matthew 21:33-46 (English-RSV)
33 [Jesus said] "Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted
a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a wine press in it, and
built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into
another country.
34 When the season of fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the
tenants, to get his fruit;
35 and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and
stoned another.
36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the
same to them.
37 Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, 'This is the
heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.'
39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40
When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those
tenants?"
41 They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and
let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in
their seasons."
42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: 'The very
stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner; this
was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?
43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and
given to a nation producing the fruits of it."
44 _
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they
perceived that he was speaking about them.
46 But when they tried to arrest him, they feared the multitudes, because
they held him to be a prophet.
[...]
God destroyed the Temple and drove Jews out from Israel almost 2000 years
ago! Was it God or was it man's doing that Israel be made a State in 1948?
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Consider this:
http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00hb0
(Link still active May 16, 2003 and saved locally as: MFAH00hb0)
"THE DECLARATION OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL May 14, 1948
On May 14, 1948, on the day in which the British Mandate over a Palestine
expired, the Jewish People's Council gathered at the Tel Aviv Museum, and
approved the following proclamation, declaring the establishment of the
State of Israel. The new state was recognized that night at 11:00 AM
Israel time by the United States and three days later by the USSR...
Text:
ERETZ-ISRAEL [(Hebrew) - the Land of Israel, Palestine] was the birthplace of
the Jewish people...
After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it
throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return
to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.
<<Tavish comment May 16, 2003: It was GOD himself who drove you out BUT is now
MAN countering God's will by trying to undo what GOD did and willed.>>
In the year 5657 (1897), at the summons of the spiritual father of the Jewish
State, Theodore Herzl, the First Zionist Congress convened and proclaimed the
right of the Jewish people to national rebirth in its own country.
This right was recognized in the Balfour Declaration of the 2nd November, 1917,
and re-affirmed in the Mandate of the League of Nations which, in particular,
gave international sanction to the historic connection between the Jewish people
and Eretz-Israel and to the right of the Jewish people to rebuild its National
Home...
<<Tavish comment May 16, 2003: Thus we see it is MAN creating the Jewish State
of Israel rather than it being GOD.>>
On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a
resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the
General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as
were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This
recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish
their State is irrevocable.
This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own
fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State.
ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH
COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE
DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE
OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE
UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH
STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
WE DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate
being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948), until
the establishment of the elected, regular authorities of the State in accordance
with the Constitution which shall be adopted by the Elected Constituent Assembly
not later than the 1st October 1948, the People's Council shall act as a
Provisional Council of State, and its executive organ, the People's
Administration, shall be the Provisional Government of the Jewish State, to be
called "Israel"....
WE APPEAL to the Jewish people throughout the Diaspora to rally round the Jews
of Eretz-Israel in the tasks of immigration and upbuilding and to stand by them
in the great struggle for the realization of the age-old dream - the redemption
of Israel.
PLACING OUR TRUST IN THE ALMIGHTY, WE AFFIX OUR SIGNATURES TO THIS PROCLAMATION
AT THIS SESSION OF THE PROVISIONAL COUNCIL OF STATE, ON THE SOIL OF THE
HOMELAND, IN THE CITY OF TEL-AVIV, ON THIS SABBATH EVE, THE 5TH DAY OF IYAR,
5708 (14TH MAY,1948).
* Published in the Official Gazette, No. 1 of the 5th, Iyar, 5708 (14th May,
1948).
--<END>--
Hardly looks like God brought about the disenfranchisement of Palestinians
from their land does it? Modern "Israel" was mandated by man NOT by God!
~~End of Expanded GOOGLE Archival Excerpt~~
SPECIAL NOTE: "On May 14, 1948, on the day in which the British Mandate over a
Palestine expired" shows what is called Israel NOW was called Palestine before
man NOT God made the land Israel!
LOOK!
http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/2805/israel.htm
(Archived locally as: 2805-israel)
The Creation of Israel
The situation of Palestine in 1939:
<<Tavish comment May 16, 2003: Notice what is now called Israel was called
Palestine!!!>
It had been undergoing a tremendous population increase: 100% natural increase
and a significant amount of immigration—Zionist immigration...
Increasing immigration of Jews since WWI had upset Palestinian Arabs. Various
methods of resistance had been tried and there had been two uprisings, the more
important one in 1936-39.
The 1936-39 revolts began with general strikes, progressed to violence, and
eventually ended with chaos, because Palestinians were not united. The old
notables were divided by their feuds. The notables were also in a precarious
situation with regard to the general Arab population. Their power was based on
the old Palestine—the old villages of the interior, religious leadership based
in Jerusalem...
During the rising the British had attempted to stabilize things by proposing a
partition of Palestine: A Jewish homeland, a British Mandate including
Jerusalem, and an Arab state united with Transjordan. This was unacceptable to
both sides...
In 1939, a revised plan was issued as a White Paper:
* Palestine was to be independent in 10 years.
* In the meantime, both Arabs and Jews were to have responsible positions in
Mandate government. There would be proportional representation in executive
council.
* A new constitution would be drawn up in 5 years (1944), but it must include a
Jewish Home.
* 75,000 Jews would be admitted in the next 5 years, giving them about 1/3 of
the population. After that there would be no Jewish immigration without Arab
consent.
[...]
In 1947, Britain threw up its hands and dumped the problem in the laps of the
new UN. UN, led by the US and the USSR, took a rather pro-Jewish attitude, and
proposed a partition, as Britain had 10 years before, with more territory to be
given to Jewish state than in 1937. <END>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: 25 Apr 2003 08:14:41 GMT
Message-ID: <cqrhav0th39prr3bf...@4ax.com>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=ek19cv4ei9cf2nrvull7df5rgn2rhai54c%404ax.com&rnum=2
Subject: Soviets (Communists) Were Jews as Proven by BOOLEAN Operands (Classic
Repost from 3-31-2000) Abridged Version R_0516
Message-ID: <ek19cv4ei9cf2nrvu...@4ax.com>
Date: 16 May 2003 06:36:09 GMT
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=&selm=prbo5vkp1825141dem99scia1676el7nqd%404ax.com
Subject: Anti-American Communist Agitator and Tax Exempt Religious Org (B'nai
Brith) Which Gave Him Financial and Moral Support
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 21:07:42 -0600
Message-ID: <prbo5vkp1825141de...@4ax.com>
The above links represent many hours of study and research. What I post is
factual and in most cases what Jews themselves teach. I invite one and all to
carefully read all of the material I provided and then make up their own minds.
Tavish
---
>I ask-- why do we never see Jews criticize the communism
>which existed before Stalin took control?
"Because there was very little to criticize."
Susan Cohen - January 24, 2001
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&rnum=4&selm=3A6F230F.3AFF4272%40his.com
Message-ID: <3A6F230F...@his.com>
Caiaphas
'replaces' the Old Covenant. There is no salvation without Jesus and
Judaism disavows Jesus, thus Judaism is irrelevant.
"Braveheart MacTavish" <Braveheart...@NO-REPLY-NECESSARY.NET> wrote
in message news:qf7acvoa8hfn3bi2f...@4ax.com...
> and a significant amount of immigration-Zionist immigration...
>
> Increasing immigration of Jews since WWI had upset Palestinian Arabs.
Various
> methods of resistance had been tried and there had been two uprisings, the
more
> important one in 1936-39.
>
> The 1936-39 revolts began with general strikes, progressed to violence,
and
> eventually ended with chaos, because Palestinians were not united. The
old
> notables were divided by their feuds. The notables were also in a
precarious
> situation with regard to the general Arab population. Their power was
based on
> the old Palestine-the old villages of the interior, religious leadership
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Read Romans 11 ('nough said !)
<snip>
Caiaphas
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christi...@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3ec54b61....@news.ev1.net...
>
> Read Romans 11 ('nough said !)
>
> <snip>
Glen, obviously there is a contradiction (Romans 11 vs Hebrews 8).
Romans 11 states "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full
number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it
is written".
What does this mean? Is it that eventually the nation of Israel will come
to accept Christ? Or, does it mean that anyone who is a Jew and practices
Judaism even though one rejects Christ will be saved? Perhaps it means the
former in that eventually the Nation of Israel will accept Christ but until
then there are going to be a lot of lost souls who lived a life of rejecting
Christ.
If it means the later, in that ever Jew will be saved, then why don't we
renounce Christianity, convert to become a Jew and practice Judaism. I
would not take the gamble.
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Disappointed, please read Romans 11
Yohan the Lost
Jesus?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"Glenn (Christian Mystic)" <christi...@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3ec564f6....@news.ev1.net...
gaffo
> Path:
> sn-us!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.
> nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!falcon.america.net!eagle
> .america.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
> From: "Caiaphas" <Caiap...@hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups:
> alt.religion.christian.presbyterian,alt.religion.christian.lutheran,alt.rel
> igion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.religion.christian.pentecostal,alt.relig
> ion.christian,alt.religion.christian.biblestudy
> References: <qf7acvoa8hfn3bi2f...@4ax.com>
> <3ec54b61....@news.ev1.net>
> Subject: Re: Old Covenant Vs New -- New Covenant Replaces Old Covenant (Jews
> NO Longer God's Chosen People & Entitled to "Israel" So Says the
> Scripture!)
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Amos, Jeremiah and other prophets in the OT all state clearily that when
the Jews stray God send in another Nation's Army and destroys the land of
Israel.
Amos clearly states that a people who become arrogant and lazy spiritually
and who do not treat others with compassion are no longer "chosen". The
promise to Abram was conditional with rightious conduct....not a "blank
check" to kill and mame as the Reichwing Likud is doing today.
The Israel of today is made up of unchosen arrogant Nazis. Sharon is the
top Nazi. Anyone who sees such a man as a man of God does not worship God,
but Belial instead.
Read Amos, Jeremiah............the old covenant has been revoked several
times in the past. Amos even implies that one day God will simply "have
enough" and choose another poeple to remake the old covenent with - Kidim
and the Etheopains were mentioned as an example near the end of his book.
Note that the last three or four paragraphs found in the Book of Amos were
added later by others.....it was too harsh and they put in the final
"hope" passages many years later (probably during the Second
Exile)........
peace.
--
Lutheran minister and German war veteran Martin Niemoller: "First they
came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't
a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up,
because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I
didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for
me, and by then there was no one left to speak up for me."
Michael
Lost" <yo...@poee.org> wrote:
> Why do you put more faith in the words of Paul than you do the words of
> Jesus?
Paul didn't say anything that disagreed with His Lord and Saviour, Jesus
Christ. So what is your point?
--
Michael
People who donšt read newspapers are better off than those
who do because it is better to be uninformed than misinformed.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Yohan the Lost
> Christ. So what is your point?
I think he did as soon as he started calling Jesus things like Christ and
Lord, instead of praying directly to God. But I am straying off topic.
My point is, you quoted Paul instead of Jesus. Why?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"Michael" <mike...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-280...@192.168.1.101...
Michael
<yo...@poee.org> wrote:
> > Paul didn't say anything that disagreed with His Lord and Saviour, Jesus
> > Christ. So what is your point?
>
> I think he did as soon as he started calling Jesus things like Christ and
> Lord, instead of praying directly to God. But I am straying off topic.
So, where did Paul pray directly to Jesus? You are not only off topic,
but have created a topic that doesn't exist.
>
> My point is, you quoted Paul instead of Jesus. Why?
Why not? Do you discredit his apostleship and direct contact with the
Lord? If so, why?
Are you saying that none of the eyewitnesses should be listened to? What
is your basis for rejecting the eyewitness accounts?
Yohan the Lost
I think this is the most explicit evidence, though there are many passages
that refer to Christ as an intermediary. But don't take my word for it, ask
any practicing Roman Catholic whom they pray to.
Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your
faith is being reported all over the world.
> > My point is, you quoted Paul instead of Jesus. Why?
>
> Why not? Do you discredit his apostleship and direct contact with the
> Lord? If so, why?
I cannot discredit it outright, but I do question it. For the most part, we
are seeing the NT through Paul's eyes. The apostles of Jesus are well known
for misunderstanding Jesus, how do we know Peter did not misunderstand as
well?
The people who assembled the bible knew it was not perfect, but it seems we
have forgotten that over time.
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"Michael" <mike...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-030...@192.168.1.101...
Michael
Lost" <yo...@poee.org> wrote:
> > So, where did Paul pray directly to Jesus?
>
> I think this is the most explicit evidence, though there are many passages
> that refer to Christ as an intermediary. But don't take my word for it, ask
> any practicing Roman Catholic whom they pray to.
The question was where did Paul pray directly to Jesus as you claim, not
to whom Catholics pray. BTW, I have never met a Catholic who prayed to
Jesus, Christians are right to pray through Him, and do, but I have never
ment anyony who prayed to Him. Most prayers that I have ever heard begin
with a petition to our Father, Elyon YHVH Elohym and end through our Lord
and Saviour, Jesus Christ we pray.
> Romans 1:8
> First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your
> faith is being reported all over the world.
>
> > > My point is, you quoted Paul instead of Jesus. Why?
> >
> > Why not? Do you discredit his apostleship and direct contact with the
> > Lord? If so, why?
>
> I cannot discredit it outright, but I do question it.
It is fine to question it, but Paul never disagrees with our Lord and
Saviour Jesus Christ.
For the most part, we
> are seeing the NT through Paul's eyes.
IOW, you don't trust the apostles?
>The apostles of Jesus are well known
> for misunderstanding Jesus, how do we know Peter did not misunderstand as
> well?
IOW, you do not believe that Christ through His Holy Spirit wrote the
Bible? As Jesus wrote the Old Testament, which He affirmed, and both
testaments bear testimony to the other, it seems fairly self evident that
Scripture is reliable.
>
> The people who assembled the bible knew it was not perfect,
REally, what is your documentation for that?
>but it seems we
> have forgotten that over time.
As Jesus and the apostles quoted every book of the Old Testament, which
part did they believe was inperfect? Jesus only taught from the Old
Testament, and a substantial part of the New Testament is the fulfillment
of the Old and affirmation and re-quoting of the Old Testament.
Yohan the Lost
> to whom Catholics pray.
The Catholic church is probably the closest to the NT in teachings, as they
did assemble it to reflect their beliefs. Of course the church may have
changed over time, but I don't think that part is different.
> BTW, I have never met a Catholic who prayed to
> Jesus, Christians are right to pray through Him, and do, but I have never
> ment anyony who prayed to Him.
Christ may not be the final destination of your prayers, but you are still
praying to Him. Consider a corporal analogy. If I were to send a letter to
you, I would first give it to the mailman. He would then give it to you.
Even though the letter is not 'for' the mailman, it is still sent 'to' the
mailman. Thus, in order to pay "through Him", you have to pray "to Him".
The alternative is praying 'directly to' God, which is what the earthly
Jesus did (as well as everyone else during his life).
> For the most part, we
> > are seeing the NT through Paul's eyes.
>
> IOW, you don't trust the apostles?
Yes. I have read the gospels, which repeatedly tell us the apostles 'just
don't get it'.
> > The people who assembled the bible knew it was not perfect,
>
> REally, what is your documentation for that?
Read any book on the history of the bible.
The fact that they had heated arguments over various books, such as the
Revelation to John and the Shepherd of Hermes, is good enough for me. Since
some people did not get the list of books they wanted, those people
obviously would not think the bible is perfect. And there were plenty that
did not want a canon at all, preferring the earlier method of allowing each
church to select its own books.
The bible was not assembled by holy revelation, it was assembled by
committees and theological debates that took hundreds of years to complete.
> >The apostles of Jesus are well known
> > for misunderstanding Jesus, how do we know Peter did not misunderstand
as
> > well?
>
> IOW, you do not believe that Christ through His Holy Spirit wrote the
> Bible?
Correct. The bible is a Work of Man that attempts to remember the Word and
Deeds of God and His people.
The Holy Spirit may have 'inspired' people to write the bible, but it did
not write the bible itself. This is a very important distinction, as
inspiration is not a perfect conveyance of information. Inspiration prompts
action, it does not guide it.
If I inspire you to write a story or to paint a picture, it would be foolish
to give me credit for writing your story or painting your picture. Not only
did you do the work, but I had absolutely no control over the process even
at the initial stages.
> As Jesus wrote the Old Testament, which He affirmed, and both
> testaments bear testimony to the other, it seems fairly self evident that
> Scripture is reliable.
Where in the bible does it say, "I Jesus Christ write this..."?
Read the opening of the Gospel of Luke. He flat-out admits that he is
attempting to reconstruct the life of Jesus from whatever sources he was
able to find. If it was written by Christ, would he really need outside
sources on His own life?
--
Yohan the Lost, of the House of the Crooked Path
Royal Archiver for Blessed Eris
The Encyclopedia Chaotic -- www.POEE.org --
"Michael" <mike...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mikeburt-040...@192.168.1.101...