John Hawks on Rising Star Cave

[jillery]

The following link is to a one-hour video lecture by John Hawks about
the remarkable hominin fossil site located in the Rising Star cave
system in South Africa.

I don't recall if anybody posted this to T.O. before. Youtube recently
pushed the link to the top of my viewing list. The video was
originally produced way back in October 2017 by PBS Wisconsin
University, but apparently wasn't posted to Youtube until 2022.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLJVHgCZmzI>

From the transcript:
******************************
@7:24
These two guys were exploring for fossils. They were working with my
friend Lee Berger, who is a National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence
and also a professor at the University of Witwatersrand. Lee is famous
for having discovered Australopithecus sediba in 2008. And the story
of sediba goes that his son found the fossil. The story of naledi goes
that these cavers found the fossil. They were looking for fossils, and
in this cave, which is less than 800 meters away from one of the most
famous fossil sites in the world, Swartkrans, less than one-and-a-half
kilometers from Sterkfontein, the largest fossil hominin assemblage in
Africa at the time. This area that within two kilometers are five
famous hominin fossil sites, no one had ever located any fossils in
this cave. They're there and these guys found, on that first trip, not
only the Dinaledi Chamber but also they went through a second chamber,
the Lesedi Chamber.
*************************************

--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> ******************************
> @7:24
> These two guys were exploring for fossils. They were working with my
> friend Lee Berger, who is a National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence
> and also a professor at the University of Witwatersrand. Lee is famous
> for having discovered Australopithecus sediba in 2008. And the story
> of sediba goes that his son found the fossil. The story of naledi goes
> that these cavers found the fossil. They were looking for fossils, and
> in this cave, which is less than 800 meters away from one of the most
> famous fossil sites in the world, Swartkrans, less than one-and-a-half
> kilometers from Sterkfontein, the largest fossil hominin assemblage in
> Africa at the time. This area that within two kilometers are five
> famous hominin fossil sites, no one had ever located any fossils in
> this cave. They're there and these guys found, on that first trip, not
> only the Dinaledi Chamber but also they went through a second chamber,
> the Lesedi Chamber.
> *************************************

The problem with the Naledi myth is that it's like New England weather:

If you don't like it, wait 15 minutes. It'll change.

According to Berger's latest, not only was evidence for fire found in all the
chambers, as well as found along the paths they took to explore these
caverns, but animal remains are found in all but the Naledi cavern. So,
according to the latest version of the myth, "Explorers" searched this cave
without searching at all, in fact they did a rather EXCELLENT job of not
searching, until they just happened to find the Naledi chamber and then
refused to so much as look up... for six or more years.

The story is bullshit. It's never made sense, it's never been consistent. This
isn't a matter for argument, look at what Berger is saying TODAY, look at
what they were saying up until today. The two do not match in the slightest.







-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709568730822311936

[jillery]

On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 23:22:28 -0800 (PST), JTEM wrote:

>jillery wrote:
>
>> ******************************
>> @7:24
>> These two guys were exploring for fossils. They were working with my
>> friend Lee Berger, who is a National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence
>> and also a professor at the University of Witwatersrand. Lee is famous
>> for having discovered Australopithecus sediba in 2008. And the story
>> of sediba goes that his son found the fossil. The story of naledi goes
>> that these cavers found the fossil. They were looking for fossils, and
>> in this cave, which is less than 800 meters away from one of the most
>> famous fossil sites in the world, Swartkrans, less than one-and-a-half
>> kilometers from Sterkfontein, the largest fossil hominin assemblage in
>> Africa at the time. This area that within two kilometers are five
>> famous hominin fossil sites, no one had ever located any fossils in
>> this cave. They're there and these guys found, on that first trip, not
>> only the Dinaledi Chamber but also they went through a second chamber,
>> the Lesedi Chamber.
>> *************************************
>
>The problem with the Naledi myth is that it's like New England weather:
>
>If you don't like it, wait 15 minutes. It'll change.

That's what happens whenever a trove of new evidence is introduced
into a topic previously with little evidence. Scientists consider
that a Good Thing(c). Apparently your mileage varies.

>According to Berger's latest, not only was evidence for fire found in all the
>chambers, as well as found along the paths they took to explore these
>caverns, but animal remains are found in all but the Naledi cavern. So,
>according to the latest version of the myth, "Explorers" searched this cave
>without searching at all, in fact they did a rather EXCELLENT job of not
>searching, until they just happened to find the Naledi chamber and then
>refused to so much as look up... for six or more years.
>
>The story is bullshit. It's never made sense, it's never been consistent. This
>isn't a matter for argument, look at what Berger is saying TODAY, look at
>what they were saying up until today. The two do not match in the slightest.

I am skeptical of your summary. Cite your source for "Berger's
latest".

[RonO]

https://www.homonaledi.org/dawn-of-humanity-nova-documentary/

This NOVA video is from 2015. At the time I posted it on TO and I said
that it was one of the best NOVA documentaries ever made. It overhyped
the fossils, but the human side of the documentary portrayed why I would
hope that most of us are involved in science. The women that were small
enough to wriggle into the cave had the drive and desire to be
participants in the scientific endeavor. They had the desire to unlock
some of nature's secrets.

Unlike IDiots they were not interested in the denial, but their goal was
discovery.

Ron Okimoto

[jillery]

There have been several productions made using the same material. The
Dinaledi chamber was originally discovered in 2013. I recall watching
the NOVA video about the time you mention. The video I cited is a
lecture by John Hawks produced by PBS Wisconsin and is dated from
October 2017.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLJVHgCZmzI>

As it's a later production, this video includes additional information
the NOVA video doesn't, including confirmation of dates, and about
the connected Lesedi chamber.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> That's what happens whenever a trove of new evidence is introduced
> into a topic previously with little evidence. Scientists consider
> that a Good Thing(c). Apparently your mileage varies.

You're mischaracterizing everything.

The myth is that the cave was not explored. That, there was evidence of
fire everywhere, animal bones everywhere but nobody ever saw them.
Instead they dragged and squeezed their way through a very long path,
all the while ignoring their surroundings, until the reached the Naledi
cavern. Then they started looking. Everywhere but up. Then they left,
again ignoring their surroundings, told Berger and he sent people into
the cave systems that they themselves ignored entirely. Yup. They
went straight to the Naledi chamber before looking, and even then they
continued the strict tradition of refusing to look up. And this went on
for six freaking years... even exploring other caverns, even increasing
the brain volume estimates because of something they claim to have
found in another chamber... the fires and animal bones were all
invisible. Still. They remained oblivious to everything. These explorers.

For six years.

> I am skeptical of your summary.

"I unconditionally accept & rudely believe the media!"

> Cite your source for "Berger's
> latest".

You posted it already. YOU posted it. YOU did.

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/rrTZOHjtQO8/m/2yU4b3_mEwAJ

There. The first indication of any fires was when he entered the cave and
he alone looked up. AND he also posts image after image of fire evidence,
details how the team had been dragging their bodies on top of it, claims
that the animal remains are everywhere EXCEPT the Naledi chamber...

Are you ignorant of how the brain size estimate were revised UPWARD
after a single "Find" in another chamber? If you are, then maybe you can
be excused for not knowing that they had been in other chambers, not
seeing any fires or animal remains...

But what's your excuse for being ignorant of the contents of your own
cite?





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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709529851983544320

[JTEM is my hero]

RonO wrote:

> This NOVA video is from 2015. At the time I posted it on TO and I said
> that it was one of the best NOVA documentaries ever made. It overhyped
> the fossils, but the human side of the documentary portrayed why I would
> hope that most of us are involved in science. The women that were small
> enough to wriggle into the cave had the drive and desire to be
> participants in the scientific endeavor. They had the desire to unlock
> some of nature's secrets.

Reality:

https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/Ko_o7q9vrok/m/Bf-VaYJpCQAJ

The video showed a bunch of amateurs CONTAMINATING the finds. There's
no effort what so ever to protect the remains from contamination.

And, these "Driven" people never once looked up or down. Nope. Couldn't be
less interested. Not until they reached the Naledi chamber. And even there
they could never bother to look up.





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[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> There have been several productions made using the same material. The
> Dinaledi chamber was originally discovered in 2013.

They say that the caves have been explored since the 1960s, actually.

Hard to believe that these jokers can say with a straight face that sub
Saharan Africans are so dumb that they can't even stumble upon a
cave...




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[jillery]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2023 14:40:56 -0800 (PST), JTEM trolled: wrote:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> There have been several productions made using the same material. The
>> Dinaledi chamber was originally discovered in 2013.
>
>They say that the caves have been explored since the 1960s, actually.
>
>Hard to believe that these jokers can say with a straight face that sub
>Saharan Africans are so dumb that they can't even stumble upon a
>cave...

Easy enough to find a cave entrance. Much harder to crawl into cracks
that would trap untrained and/or stupid individuals.

[jillery]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2023 14:29:57 -0800 (PST), JTEM trolled:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> That's what happens whenever a trove of new evidence is introduced
>> into a topic previously with little evidence. Scientists consider
>> that a Good Thing(c). Apparently your mileage varies.
>
>You're mischaracterizing everything.

And you *still* haven't even tried to identify what you claim I am
"mischaracterizing". Why is that?

OTOH Berger is emphatic about the abundance of evidence contained in
the Rising Star caves. He mentions how before this discovery, there
were more individuals studying hominin fossils than there were
fossils, while this and other recent cites provide more fossils than
all previously discovered sites combined. Thanks to Rising Star cave,
we have more data about H.naledi as a population than we do about
H.neanderthalensis or H.erectus.

>The myth is that the cave was not explored. That, there was evidence of
>fire everywhere, animal bones everywhere but nobody ever saw them.
>Instead they dragged and squeezed their way through a very long path,
>all the while ignoring their surroundings, until the reached the Naledi
>cavern. Then they started looking. Everywhere but up. Then they left,
>again ignoring their surroundings, told Berger and he sent people into
>the cave systems that they themselves ignored entirely. Yup. They
>went straight to the Naledi chamber before looking, and even then they
>continued the strict tradition of refusing to look up. And this went on
>for six freaking years... even exploring other caverns, even increasing
>the brain volume estimates because of something they claim to have
>found in another chamber... the fires and animal bones were all
>invisible. Still. They remained oblivious to everything. These explorers.
>
>For six years.
>
>> I am skeptical of your summary.
>
>"I unconditionally accept & rudely believe the media!"

Either you believe the source material and the project leader, or you
don't. Barring evidence to the contrary, I do the former. Apparently
your mileage varies.

>> Cite your source for "Berger's
>> latest".
>
>You posted it already. YOU posted it. YOU did.
>
>https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/rrTZOHjtQO8/m/2yU4b3_mEwAJ

Thank you for citing a recent example of your willfully stupid
trolling style.

For those who are interested in the actual topic, here's a link to the
video I cited:

<https://livestream.com/carnegiescience/explorationage/videos/234027978>

Nothing Berger says in this video is remotely close to JTEM's
mischaracterizations that Berger felt the previous 6 years "ignored"
and were "oblivious" to the evidence. To the contrary, he mentions
the simultaneous discovery of a small but unambiguous hearth AND his
recognition of soot on the cave roof.

>There. The first indication of any fires was when he entered the cave and
>he alone looked up. AND he also posts image after image of fire evidence,
>details how the team had been dragging their bodies on top of it, claims
>that the animal remains are everywhere EXCEPT the Naledi chamber...
>
>Are you ignorant of how the brain size estimate were revised UPWARD
>after a single "Find" in another chamber? If you are, then maybe you can
>be excused for not knowing that they had been in other chambers, not
>seeing any fires or animal remains...
>
>But what's your excuse for being ignorant of the contents of your own
>cite?

What's YOUR excuse for perpetuating your willfully stupid troll from
another froup?

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> Easy enough to find a cave entrance. Much harder to crawl into cracks
> that would trap untrained and/or stupid individuals.

The trained/brilliant individuals are the ones who never looked around,
except in Naledi chamber itself, and never even looked up there.




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[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> And you *still* haven't even tried to identify what you claim I am
> "mischaracterizing". Why is that?

Are you retarded? Mentally ill? Both? Because it's YOUR cite that I
got all this from! It was Berger who said that he and he alone
looked up. He said that all the chambers had evidence for fire
and all but the Naledi chamber had animal remains. It was he
that said the fires where everywhere and his people had been
dragging themselves across the remains all that time without
noticing.

> Thanks to Rising Star cave,
> we have more data about H.naledi as a population than we do about
> H.neanderthalensis or H.erectus.

That's not necessarily useful. The sea is far better at preserving
fossils than anywhere on land. It doesn't help us learn about the
T-Rex though. In fact, most people are fairly disinterested...

> Either you believe the source material and the project leader

That's the argument of a biblical literalist: "It doesn't matter if it
seems way off and is contradictory, if you believe in God then you
have to accept it at face value!"

Are you trolling now?

> Barring evidence to the contrary

The evidence *Is* to the contrary! That's the point! What he is
saying NOW does not match what was stated in the past. Not
originally, not even a few years ago.

> >You posted it already. YOU posted it. YOU did.
> >
> >https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/rrTZOHjtQO8/m/2yU4b3_mEwAJ

> Thank you for

Did you watch it? Listen? Are you trolling or emotionally disturbed?

Retarded?

Everything I stated is confirmed by the video.

> For those who are interested in the actual topic, here's a link to the
> video I cited:

It's there. The link is there.

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/rrTZOHjtQO8/m/2yU4b3_mEwAJ

You posted. The cite you claimed you never saw. You posted it. I
replied. I pointed out many of the problems.

> Nothing Berger says in this video is remotely close to JTEM's
> mischaracterizations that Berger felt the previous 6 years "ignored"
> and were "oblivious" to the evidence.

On this planet, in the video that YOU posted he states that the evidence
for fire was not discovered until HE PERSONALLY entered the cave and
looked up. SIX GODDAMN YEARS or more and he was the only person
to look up. According to him. Quite unambiguously... in the video you
posted... your own cite.

He says that animals were found in all the chambers except Naledi. He
says that fires were found everywhere, including passages. He present
a photo of a fire that he says his team had been dragging itself across
all that time without ever noticing.

It's all there. Troll. Sicko.

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/rrTZOHjtQO8/m/2yU4b3_mEwAJ

There it is.




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[jillery]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2023 23:22:51 -0800 (PST), JTEM trolled:

>jillery wrote:
>
>> Easy enough to find a cave entrance. Much harder to crawl into cracks
>> that would trap untrained and/or stupid individuals.
>
>The trained/brilliant individuals are the ones who never looked around,
>except in Naledi chamber itself, and never even looked up there.

The trained/brilliant individuals are the ones who discovered Naledi
chamber. They are not the ones who "explored since the 1960s". The
one who "looked up there" did so while trapped in a crack and by his
own description "nearly died". Apparently you're unaware that
different individuals are differently trained/brilliant. Let me know
when you're trained to form a coherent point.

[jillery]

On Mon, 20 Feb 2023 23:35:41 -0800 (PST), JTEM trolled:


>> <https://livestream.com/carnegiescience/explorationage/videos/234027978>

>> Nothing Berger says in this video is remotely close to JTEM's
>> mischaracterizations that Berger felt the previous 6 years "ignored"
>> and were "oblivious" to the evidence.
>
>On this planet, in the video that YOU posted he states that the evidence
>for fire was not discovered until HE PERSONALLY entered the cave and
>looked up. SIX GODDAMN YEARS or more and he was the only person
>to look up. According to him. Quite unambiguously... in the video you
>posted... your own cite.

... which does NOT say Berger feels the previous 6 years "ignored"
and were "oblivious" to the evidence. That's YOUR mischaracterization
which I challenge.

>It's all there. Troll. Sicko.

Idiot.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> Easy enough to find a cave entrance. Much harder to crawl into cracks
> that would trap untrained and/or stupid individuals.

The Bantu Expansion was VERY recent; within historical times. The
occupants would have been the Khoisan, most likely, and they average
something around 1.5 meters in height -- less than 5 feet.

They're smaller, is what I'm saying.

Lee Berger is taller and a good deal heftier and he made it down there.
In fact, the current myth has him being the first ever person down there
to look up.

This is basic stuff. For those who don't blindly obey their priests, this
is basic stuff.

People with scientific curiosity ask questions. They determine the
implications of claims, look for those results. In fact, if you can't do
that then it's not science.

A hypothesis is the basis for predictions... "Well. If this is true then..."

Those predictions are tests. They are experiments you can perform
and observations you can make IF what is being told to you is true.

This is science. It is the heart and soul of science.

No. Not your name-dropping.





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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709843474858622976

[JTEM is my hero]

Handicapped, jillery wrote:

> The trained/brilliant individuals are the ones who discovered Naledi
> chamber.

No. Wrong. You lack reading comprehension as well as retention. This
coupled to your Autism must be quite the handicap...

The comments, the subject I was replying to were regarding a tv
"Documentary." What that documentary showed was the furthest
thing from brilliant individuals. It showed a total disregard for
contaminations. They just plain contaminated the finds.

AND it was the same "Brilliant" people who were dragging themselves
across fires and never noticing... AND the same "Brilliant" who never
looked up.

So: Oblivious to their surrounding, missed what is later described as
OBVIOUS fires and animal remains... contaminated the finds...

Yeah, that's what the collective is calling "Brilliant."





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[JTEM is my hero]

Autistic, and NOT hogh functionng, jillery wrote:

> >On this planet, in the video that YOU posted he states that the evidence
> >for fire was not discovered until HE PERSONALLY entered the cave and
> >looked up. SIX GODDAMN YEARS or more and he was the only person
> >to look up. According to him. Quite unambiguously... in the video you
> >posted... your own cite.

> ... which does NOT say Berger feels the previous 6 years "ignored"

Of course he did. He just didn't use those exact words. But he did say
it. He communicated that message.

People who aren't on the Spectrum have no difficulty grasping these
things.




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[jillery]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 16:47:25 -0800 (PST), JTEM trolled:

>Handicapped, jillery wrote:
>
>> The trained/brilliant individuals are the ones who discovered Naledi
>> chamber.
>
>No. Wrong.

Prove it.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> Prove it.

I did, mental case. I cited it. I even cited myself citing it.

Here's me citing me citing it:

https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/PGKkCMrYSwM/m/B1u9AEXcAQAJ

You are such a goddamn faker! You are so far away from
the person you pretend to be that you can't even follow a
thread! Yet, you pretend you can unravel the mystery of
human origins? YOU COULDN'T MASTER THE COMPLEXITIES
OF A FAST-FOOD JOB!







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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709843474858622976

[jillery]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 11:51:51 -0800 (PST), JTEM continued to troll:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> Prove it.
>
>I did, mental case. I cited it. I even cited myself citing it.
>
>Here's me citing me citing it:
>
>https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/PGKkCMrYSwM/m/B1u9AEXcAQAJ

That's you claiming to prove it, when in fact your "proof" is based on
a personal and unique definition, a common tactic among willfully
stupid trolls.

[JTEM is my hero]

jillery wrote:

> JTEM continued to Bestow Truth:

> >https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/PGKkCMrYSwM/m/B1u9AEXcAQAJ

> That's you claiming

No. That's your mental problems speaking. I cited the exact same video that you
did using your Ron O node. I pointed out what was wrong with it, what to look for.
Funny how you think this was wrong when I did it but you approved when your
Ron O node did it... real funny... hilarious.

You are a faker.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709313954911027200

[jillery]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 22:37:12 -0800 (PST), JTEM continued to troll:

> jillery wrote:
>
>> JTEM continued to troll:
>
>> >https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/PGKkCMrYSwM/m/B1u9AEXcAQAJ
>

>>That's you claiming to prove it, when in fact your "proof" is based on
>>a personal and unique definition, a common tactic among willfully
>>stupid trolls.
>

>No. That's your mental problems speaking. I cited the exact same video that you
>did using your Ron O node. I pointed out what was wrong with it, what to look for.
>Funny how you think this was wrong when I did it but you approved when your
>Ron O node did it... real funny... hilarious.
>
>You are a faker.

Since you mention it, I have no interest in Ron O's nodes. I suppose
his doctor might want to examine them. You're welcome.

[JTEM is my hero]

Autistic, jillery wrote:

> >No. That's your mental problems speaking. I cited the exact same video that you
> >did using your Ron O node. I pointed out what was wrong with it, what to look for.
> >Funny how you think this was wrong when I did it but you approved when your
> >Ron O node did it... real funny... hilarious.
> >
> >You are a faker.

> Since you mention it

What I mentioned is the fact that I posted THE! EXACT! SAME! VIDEO! that you
did, using one of your other sock puppets, AND I pointed out what was wrong
in it. I pointed out what to look for. YOU suffered one of your all too frequent
episodes and imagined that I did something very different.

Again, I didn't cite the video and chuck insults. I pointed out WHAT they were
doing that was wrong, and even made it clear WHY it was wrong, and I cited
the video so anyone could just look for themselves and see that I was right.

This is alien to you, along with reading comprehension & retention.




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