Confirming Multiple Edward I Descents for William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon

[Andrew Z]

Dear group,

Although the lineage below appears to be well documented, I’d like to confirm it with you to be certain.

I came across the following statement made by Brad Verity in 2013: “Anne Berkeley is one of two gateway ancestors providing an undisputed Edward I descent for the three Deighton sisters who immigrated to New England in the 1630s”

Would Anne Beauchamp be the other undisputed gateway ancestor?

If so, below is the lineage from both Anne Berkeley and Anne Beuchamp to William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon:

William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon and Mary Moore
Elizabeth Folliot and Sir John Ponsonby (1)
Henry Folliot, 1st Lord Folliot and Anne Strode
Katherine Ligon and Thomas Folliot (2)
Eleanor Dennis and William Ligon
ANNE BERKELEY* and William Dennis
*With three descents from Edward I (through 1. Elizabeth de Segrave and John de Mowbray 2. Elizabeth de Bohun and Richard FitzAlan 3. Elizabeth le Despenser and Maurice de Berkeley)

and

William Ligon and Eleanor Dennis
Sir Richard Ligon and Margaret Greville
ANNE BEAUCHAMP** and Sir Richard Ligon
**With two descents from Edward I (through 1. Margaret de Clare and Hugh Audley 2. Eleanor de Clare and Hugh le Despenser)

(1) https://archive.org/details/completepeerageo02coka/page/169/mode/1up

(2) https://archive.org/details/CokayneG.E.TheCompletePeerageSecondEditionVolume5EAGO/page/n284/mode/1up

Is the information above correct and are there any other Edward I descents that were missed?

Thank you in advance,

Andrew

[Brad Verity]

On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 1:03:13 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
> Is the information above correct and are there any other Edward I descents that were missed?

Dear Andrew,

I have William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon (1659-1724) in my database. Yes, the Edward I descents you outline in your post are correct. All of the viscount's Edward I descents were through his mother Hon. Elizabeth (Foliot), Lady Ponsonby.

I have one further line of descent from Edward I for Lady Ponsonby which you did not outline. It is through her mother Anne (Strode) (Foliot), Countess of Roscommon.

Edward I had a dau:
1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had
2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun, Countess of Ormond (c.1310-1363), who had
3) Lady Petronilla Butler, Lady Talbot (c.1335-1368), who had
4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (by 1361-1396), who had
5) Alice Talbot (c.1393-1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre, and had
6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall, and had
7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall, and had
8) Sir Edmund Cornewall of Burford (c.1450-1489) m. Margaret Horde, and had
9) Anne Cornewall m. Peter Blount of Sodington Hall (c.1459-1527), and had
10) Thomas Blount of Sodington Hall (d. 1562) m. 1) Katherine Stanford, and had
11) Elizabeth Blount (c.1520-1582) m. William Clifton of Barrington Court, and had
12) Theophilia Clifton m. 1) Thomas Strode of Stoke-sub-Hamdon, and had
13) Anne Strode (1582-1652) m. 1) Henry, 1st Baron Folliott of Ballyshannon (1569-1622, descended from Edward I), and had
14) Hon. Elizabeth Foliot m. Sir John Ponsonby of Bessborough (1608-1678), and had
15) William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon (1659-1724)

Hope this helps.

Cheers, -------Brad

[Andrew Z]

Dear Brad,

Thank you so much for your help! As always, your quick and meticulous response was much appreciated. I am glad to hear that the Edward I descents in the original post are correct and that there is also another one that I was unaware of - I look forward to exploring it in more detail, especially since my information on Anne Strode was very limited.

I know this is out of the group's time period scope, but would your database happen to have any additional Edward I descents for William Ponsonby's grandson (through his daughter, Letitia), James May, Baronet or for his wife, Anne Moore? CB: https://archive.org/details/completebaroneta05coka/page/367/mode/1up

Thanks again,

Andrew

[Brad Verity]

On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 6:57:06 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
> I know this is out of the group's time period scope, but would your database happen to have any additional Edward I descents for William Ponsonby's grandson (through his daughter, Letitia), James May, Baronet or for his wife, Anne Moore? CB: https://archive.org/details/completebaroneta05coka/page/367/mode/1up

I now do not have any Edward I descents for the 1st Viscount Duncannon's wife, Mary (Moore) Ponsonby (1661-1713), as I've removed Sybilla Turpin from my database.

I don't yet have their daughter Letitia (Ponsonby) May or her son Sir James May, 1st Baronet of Mayfield (c.1724-1811), in my database. Hopefully another SocGenMed member has traced them.

Cheers, ------Brad

[John Higgins]

Brad, can you refresh my memory on one aspect of Mary Moore's ancestry - and possible Edward I descents?

Genealogics shows (and I also have in my data) Edward I descents for Mary Moore via Dorothy Vernon, wife of Humphrey Hill. I vaguely recall that there was an issue about the parentage of Dorothy Vernon which would have caused the loss of her Edward I descents, but I can' remember the specifics. Can you help?

https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00593773&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=6

For some of the descendants of Letitia (Ponsonby) May, see the article on the May baronetcy in the Complete Baronetage. A bit of scandal: the 2nd Baronet had 4 children by a second wife before he actually married her, and one of those children became the wife of the 2nd Marquess of Donegall.

[John Higgins]

Correction: Dorothy Vernon was the wife of Humphrey Ludlow, not Humphrey Hill.

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 5:46:20 PM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Brad, can you refresh my memory on one aspect of Mary Moore's ancestry - and possible Edward I descents?

Dear John,

Per Genealogics, the line of descent is as follows:

Edward I had a dau:
1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had

2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360), who had
3) Lady Elizabeth de Bohun, Countess of Arundel (c.1344-1385), who had
4) Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill, and had
5) Elizabeth Goushill (b. 1402) m. Sir Robert Wingfield, and had
6) Elizabeth Wingfield (c.1425-1497) m. Sir William Brandon, and had
7) Margaret Brandon m. Sir Gregory Lovell of Barton Bendish (1451-1505), and had
8) Sir Francis Lovell of Barton Bendish (d. 1552) m. Anne Ashby (d. 1539), and had
9) Dorothy Lovell (b. c.1530) m. Thomas Vernon, Heir of Stokesay Castle (c.1510-1556, descended from Henry IV), and had
10) Dorothy Vernon m. Humphrey Ludlow of Stokesay, and had
11) Elizabeth Ludlow m. Humphrey Hill of Hills Court, and had
12) Mary Hill m. Richard Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1563), and had
13) George Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1594) m. Judith Calcott (d. 1585), and had
14) Calcot Chambre of Williamscote (c.1573-1635) m. 1) Mary Villiers (c.1584-by 1611), and had
15) Mary Chambre (d. 1685) m. Edward Brabazon, 2nd Earl of Meath (c.1610-1675), and had
16) Lady Jane Brabazon m. Hon. Randal Moore of Ardee, and had
17) Mary Moore (1661-1713) m. William Ponsonby, 1st Viscount Duncannon

So Generations 1 thru 9 above are valid, as are Generations 13 thru 17. The problem is Generations 10 thru 12.

First off, Thomas Vernon, heir of Stokesay Castle (with several lines of descent from Edward I, including one thru Henry IV's illegitimate granddaughter Antigone of Lancaster) in Generation 9 above, has an entry in HOP
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/vernon-thomas-1532-56

The HOP bio mentions his son and heir Henry Vernon of Stokesay Castle was age seven at Thomas's death. I have the exact birthdate for Henry Vernon, 25 December (Christmas) 1548. HOP surmises that Thomas Vernon was of age when returned to Parliament in 1553, so born by 1532. His mother Anne (Ludlow) Vernon was born in 1482, and his parents were contracted to be married 26 September 1493, so I've estimated Thomas Vernon to be born about 1510. It might have been a little earlier. I don't have a marriage date for the parents of his wife Dorothy Lovell, but HOP estimates that her eldest brother was born by 1528, per their father's IPM.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/lovell-sir-thomas-ii-1528-67

Given that her son Henry Vernon of Stokesay Castle was born 25 Dec 1548, it's fair to estimate a birth for Dorothy (Lovell) Vernon of 1525-1530.

Calcot Chambre in Generation 14 above also has an entry in HOP, which estimates his birthdate as about 1573.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/chambre-calcot-1573-1635

So this descent is impossible chronologically. A lady (Dorothy Lovell Vernon) born about 1525-30 cannot be the great-great-great-grandmother(!!!) of a gentleman born about 1573.

> Genealogics shows (and I also have in my data) Edward I descents for Mary Moore via Dorothy Vernon, wife of Humphrey Hill. I vaguely recall that there was an issue about the parentage of Dorothy Vernon which would have caused the loss of her Edward I descents, but I can' remember the specifics. Can you help?

There was a discussion in this newsgroup back in 2008 about the first 14 generations of this descent. I missed that discussion, but I agree with the point Matthew Connolly made that Dorothy (Vernon) Ludlow - Generation 10 above - likely didn't exist, certainly not as a daughter of Thomas Vernon heir of Stokesay Castle and Dorothy Lovell:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/RqRAim7of-A/m/q8201Mg7HkoJ

This pedigree from Geni.com, has Mary (Hill) Chambre (1510-1565) - Generation 12 above - as a daughter of John Hill of Hill Court (c.1490-1550) and his wife Anne.
https://www.geni.com/people/Maria-Chambre/6000000002061405002

I haven't researched the Hills of Hill Court, so I can't speak to the accuracy of the Geni.com pedigree. I do have some Chambres of Petton Hall in my database, and I notice that the Chambre family is covered in Burke's Irish Family Records (1976), so I'll make a copy of the article the next time I have access to that work.

> For some of the descendants of Letitia (Ponsonby) May, see the article on the May baronetcy in the Complete Baronetage. A bit of scandal: the 2nd Baronet had 4 children by a second wife before he actually married her, and one of those children became the wife of the 2nd Marquess of Donegall.

Interesting. Eventually I'll add into my database Hon. Letitia Ponsonby and the May baronets of Mayfield.

Hope this helps!

Cheers, -----Brad

[Guy Vincent]

Brad,
There is a baptism record in Cropredy Oxfordshire for Calcott Chambre 27th March 1574, also Richard Chambre left a will dated 20th January 1556/57 Petton, Salop and proved 21 May 1558 London.

cheers Guy

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 11:22:34 PM UTC-8, Guy Vincent wrote:
> There is a baptism record in Cropredy Oxfordshire for Calcott Chambre 27th March 1574, also Richard Chambre left a will dated 20th January 1556/57 Petton, Salop and proved 21 May 1558 London.

Thank you.

[Will Johnson]

Anne Strode is given by Burke's, and apparently CP is following this, as the daughter of a William Strode of Stoke-under-Hampden
See for example

http://books.google.com/books?id=1DEGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA219&dq=%22John+King%22+of+Boyle+Abbey&lr=&as_brr=3

[Will Johnson]

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 11:22:34 PM UTC-8, Guy Vincent wrote:

> >

> > Calcot Chambre in Generation 14 above also has an entry in HOP, which estimates his birthdate as about 1573.
> > https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/chambre-calcot-1573-1635

> There is a baptism record in Cropredy Oxfordshire for Calcott Chambre 27th March 1574, also Richard Chambre left a will dated 20th January 1556/57 Petton, Salop and proved 21 May 1558 London.
>
> cheers Guy

Calcot /Chambre/ of Denbigh, Wales; of Williamscote, Oxon and Carnew, co Wicklow; MP; Ho
matric Nov 1590 Brasenose "aged 19"

He could probably have been but 15, or perhaps the entry misread his age, or misread the date
I do note that his mother Judith was heiress of her father Walter /Caldecote/ of Williamscott, Oxon

And Williamscott is right next to Cropredy per Google Maps

[Will Johnson]

I also note, that it is possible to preserve the general outline of the descent by making Dorothy Vernon, not the daughter of
Thomas /Vernon/ of Stokesay, co Salop; MP
but rather his sister

The chronology then works fine.

[Johnny Brananas]

I agree the chronology prevents the above line from being correct.

The sister (Hester) of Calcot Chambre [i.e., Chamber or Chambers] married a Wyllys and was ancestral to the Wyllys family of Connecticut.

Does the following work a little better (from page 342-43 of _Shropshire Visitations 1623_, volume 2?:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101072878885&view=1up&seq=71&skin=2021&q1=lutteley


1. Richard Grey, Lord Powys = Margaret Audley [Touchet]

2. Elizabeth [? Grey] = John Ludlow

3. Maurice Ludlow = Constance, da. of Sir Piers Griffith

4. William Ludlow = ____

5. Humphrey Ludlow = Dorothy Vernon

6. Elizabeth Ludlow (d. 1575) = Humphrey Hill (d. 1585) of Hills Court

7. Mary Hill m. Richard Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1563)

8. George Chambre of Petton Hall (d. 1594) m. Judith Calcott (d. 1585)

9. Hester Chambre/ Chamber = Mr. Wyllys, whose son was Governor of Connecticut

The dates for Elizabeth Ludlow and her husband Humphrey Hill come from _Victoria History of the County of Shropshire_, vol. 10 (?), p. 16 (?), viewed only in snippet format:

"John Lyttelton may have sold Alcaston manor between between 1507 and 1532 to Humphrey Ludlow, although an interest in Alcaston and Henley was sold in 1552 by the earl of Oxford to John Stringfellow. Ludlow's daughter and heir Elizabeth (d. 1575) married Humphrey Hill (d. 1585) of Court of Hill (in Burford) ..."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_Shropshire/IwA2AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22humphrey+ludlow%22+humphrey+hill+1585&dq=%22humphrey+ludlow%22+humphrey+hill+1585&printsec=frontcover

This still seems too tight, but might barely work, especially if Richard Chambre/ Chamber of Petton died early and right after marriage.

[Andrew Z]

Thank you everybody for your contributions to this discussion so far! There may be some interesting possibilities to explore further.

I'll be a posting a longer response covering various topics later on, but in the meantime I just wanted to note that according to Burke's Landed Gentry of Ireland (1912), the father of Richard Chambre's wife, Mary Hill, was John Hill of Court of Hill (presumably the grandfather of Humphrey Hill of Hills Court).
https://archive.org/details/genealogicalhera00burkuoft/page/106/mode/1up

All the best!

Andrew

[Johnny Brananas]

Another version a few pages back in vol. 2 of the Visitation cuts out the Grey/ Audley Touchet descent and just gives:

Sr Will'm Ludlow of Stoake Say [Stokesay] in com. Salop Kt = ....

Moris Ludlow of Stoaks hay in com. Salop [shown as UNCLE of John who married Elizabeth Grey] = Constance (_Custance_) da. to Sr Peirs Griffith Kt.

Will'm Ludlow of Stoaks haye Esqr. = ....

Humfrey Ludlow. = Dorothy da. of Tho. Vernon.

Elizabeth = mar. to Humfry Hill of Hill Courte.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101072878885&view=1up&seq=69&skin=2021&q1=stoaks%20haye

This would cut out the chronological difficulty of these Ludlows being descendants of Grey and Touchet, and could be possible. It seems clear that Dorothy Vernon here must be a different woman than the daughter of Thomas Vernon and Dorothy Lovell, despite a connection to Stokesay.

Also, as Andrew noted, the position in the Hill fam. of the daughter who married Chambers needs to be determined.

Maybe Sir Peirs Griffith could be investigated for any interesting lines?

[Will Johnson]

It would chronologically just barely be possible for Dorothy "daughter of Thomas Vernon" to be the daughter of that Thomas who was Sheriff co Salop 1509 "third but second surviving son" and born 1473
by his wife
Anne /Ludlow/
co-heiress "aged 16" of her grandfather Ludlow 1499

She would most likely need to be the eldest daughter, born 1497/1508
It's possible

[Brad Verity]

On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 5:31:48 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> Anne Strode is given by Burke's, and apparently CP is following this, as the daughter of a William Strode of Stoke-under-Hampden
> See for example
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=1DEGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA219&dq=%22John+King%22+of+Boyle+Abbey&lr=&as_brr=3

Dear Will,

Frederick Arthur Crisp, the antiquarian who co-edited (eventually sole-edited) The Visitation of England & Wales series, compiled a pedigree for Strode of Stoke-sub-Hampdon in Fragmenta Genealogica Volume 8 (1902):
https://archive.org/details/fragmentagenealo08cris_0/page/132/mode/2up

Note there is no Sir William Strode of Stoke-sub-Hampdon. There are four daughters listed for Thomas Strode of Stoke-sub-Hampdon and his wife Theophilia Clifton; 1) Elizabeth Strode, married Richard Phillips [Phelips] of Corfe Mullen, Dorset; 2) Dorothy Strode married "Sir John Foliot"; 3) Jane Strode, married 2 January 1591/2 St Denis Church, Stoke-sub-Hampdon, George Bowerman of Isle Brewers; 4) Anne Strode, "not 18, 23 April 1595" [her father Thomas Strode's will].

Elizabeth (Blount), Lady Clifton of Barrington Court, made her will 2 November 1580, proved 27 July 1582, and mentions "my son in law Thomas Strode, gent. my daughter Theophila Strode, John Strode, her son, Elizabeth Strode, her daughter, Johan Strode, her daughter":
https://www.geni.com/people/Theophilia-Strode/6000000059558367154

Elizabeth Strode, wife of Richard Phelips of Corfe Mullen, was baptized 14 June 1575 St Denis Church, Stoke-sub-Hamdon:
https://www.geni.com/people/Richard-Phelips/6000000059558711824

I have her sister Anne Strode baptized 28 May 1582 St Denis Church, Stoke-sub-Hamdon. So she was born a year-and-a-half after her maternal grandmother Lady Clifton made out her will, which explains why she is not named in it.

We have parish register evidence for the existence of three of Thomas & Theophilia (Clifton) Strode's daughters: Elizabeth, Jane & Anne. There does not seem to be any parish register evidence for the fourth daughter Dorothy Strode, wife of Sir John Folliot.

John Higgins and Robert O'Connor discussed this Dorothy Strode Folliot on this newsgroup back in 2005. I propose that Hutchins' Dorset is in error, with the first names of this Strode/Folliot marriage. Instead of 'Dorothy' Strode wife of Sir 'John' Foliot, it was rather Anne Strode, wife of Sir Henry Foliot.

I realize this is a leap, and definitive evidence needs to be uncovered. I'm unable in a short time to locate the Stoke-sub-Hamdon parish registers online. But they need to be searched for all entries in the 1570-1615 period for Strode. Also the 1613 will of Anthony Parsons of Matlock, second husband of Theophilia (Clifton) Strode, and the 1616 will (proved 1621) of John Strode of Stoke-sub-Hamdon (c.1568-1621), son and heir of Thomas Strode & Theophilia Clifton, may provide further clues.

[Will Johnson]

I think that Anne was living but not yet 18 Apr 1595, which is when her father was buried, must iimply that there is either a will or an IPM which names the children from him.

[Will Johnson]

On Thursd

> I think that Anne was living but not yet 18 Apr 1595, which is when her father was buried, must iimply that there is either a will or an IPM which names the children from him.

No I'm wrong. Courtesy of his Wikitree entry the will states

"I Thomas Strode of the Parishe of Stoke under Hamdon within the Dioces of Bathe and Wells esquire." To be buried in chancel of Stoke Church. To my wife Theophila all my rights in the rectory of Stoke under Hamden granted to me my Royal Letters Patent. All bequests to my wife to return to my son John Strode if she marry again. £100 due to me from Edward Gould of Northover, Barnard Gould of Preston and Richard Parris of Chard, co. Somerset, to be laid out yearly by wife Theophila "and the right worshipful my loving brother and freindes Mr. William Fleetwood, esquire, and Mr. Henry Coker, esquire." To my son Thomas Strode £150 at age 21. To my daughter Anne Strode £100 at the age of 18. Residue to my son John, sole executor. Overseers: William Fleetwood and Henry Coker. Note of a debt due to me from Mr. Robert Strode, son of my late brother. Witnesses: George Stone, Richard Chaffie

[Brad Verity]

On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 9:30:19 AM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:

> John Higgins and Robert O'Connor discussed this Dorothy Strode Folliot on this newsgroup back in 2005. I propose that Hutchins' Dorset is in error, with the first names of this Strode/Folliot marriage. Instead of 'Dorothy' Strode wife of Sir 'John' Foliot, it was rather Anne Strode, wife of Sir Henry Foliot.

I meant to link to the 2005 discussion I referred to above. Here it is:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/qmx4DufPClE/m/rLBF69kXM8IJ

[Johnny Brananas]

Here is a note naming the father as "Thomas Strode." Although maybe just a silent correction of the error ...

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x030221931&view=1up&seq=400&skin=2021&q1=stroude

[John Higgins]

I think Andrew's on the right track here. The 1958 edition of BLGI also shows that Mary, wife of Richard Chambré, was the daughter of John Hill of Court of Hill. And moving Mary's parentage back two generations should definitely eliminate the chronological problems. One difficulty, however, is that I'm not sure how many good dates we have for that line.

[Johnny Brananas]

The Hill pedigree in Shropshire Vis., 1:244 shows that Humphrey Hill and Elizabeth Ludlow had daughter "Dorothea [Hill] uxor Gabryelis Chambers de Petton in com. Salop." Gabriel Chamber/s was a son of Richard Chamber/s and Mary Hill, so this was likely a cousin marriage.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101075683563&view=1up&seq=302&skin=2021&q1=Dorothea%20uxor%20Gabryelis

That seems to make it certain that Mary Hill, Gabriel's mother, was of an earlier generation or a different branch.

[Andrew Z]

>On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 10:33:26 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote

Hi Brad,

Thank you for your response and the subsequent in-depth analysis of the Dorothy Vernon question. I am glad that John brought it up since it is interesting to explore.

> So this descent is impossible chronologically. A lady (Dorothy Lovell Vernon) born about 1525-30 cannot be the great-great-great-grandmother(!!!) of a gentleman born about 1573.

1) On the basis of your post and the resulting discussion, it would seem to me that Mary (Moore) Ponsonby's Genealogics Edward I descents through Dorothy Vernon are invalid since Mary Hill appears to be from an earlier generation and could not be the daughter of Elizabeth Ludlow and Humphrey Hill. Thank you John for checking the 1958 BLGI and thank you Johnny for finding the relevant Shropshire pedigrees. I also noticed that this aligns with the Chambre pedigree in the same document which also shows John Hill as being the father of Mary Hill.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101075683563&view=1up&seq=157&skin=2021

I also think that the information provided by all the contributors was beneficial since it helps establish the correct parentage, as well as line of descent for the Chambre family. Thank you everybody for your collaboration on this topic!

>I've removed Sybilla Turpin from my database.

2) I appreciated you letting us know that Sybilla Turpin was removed from your database. As per my earlier post/thread, I am hoping to explore additional corroborating evidence in regard to her parentage and that of Mary Villiers. Any new information would be very welcome and would added to that discussion.

> >For some of the descendants of Letitia (Ponsonby) May, see the article on the May baronetcy in the Complete Baronetage. A bit of scandal: the 2nd Baronet had 4 children by a second wife before he actually married her, and one of those children became the wife of the 2nd Marquess of Donegall.

> Interesting. Eventually I'll add into my database Hon. Letitia Ponsonby and the May baronets of Mayfield.

3) On a side note and to elaborate on John's comment, Sir (James) Edward May, 2nd Baronet, was quite a disreputable character who "had two sons and two daughters by Elizabeth Lumley [daughter of Francis Lumley of Passage, Waterford], but all were born prior to their marriage...a rake and a scoundrel, May squandered his money at the gaming tables in London and often became involved in various shady transactions.... In 1795 his eldest daughter, Anna, married Lord Belfast, heir to the marquess, and this rescued May temporarily from penury." DIB: https://www.dib.ie/biography/may-sir-james-edward-a5536

What's interesting is that since the future marquess married Anna May without a license and she was underage, as well as illegitimate, his marriage to her was invalidated 23 years later, disinheriting his children in the process (which required an Act of Parliament to rectify). CP: https://archive.org/details/completepeerageo04coka/page/392/mode/1up

"Chichester, George Augustus (1769–1844), 2nd marquess of Donegall....His increasingly exasperated father rescued him from his shady creditors several times, then let his heir go to the debtors’ prison – a course of action he was to regret, for in the Fleet young Belfast met a sharp Irish lawyer and moneylender named May who, in return for arranging the prisoner's release, in 1795 persuaded him to marry (8 August 1795) his own illegitimate daughter Anna, a minor....[his son by her] was engaged to marry a daughter of the earl of Shaftesbury. Both the marriage and the settlement were aborted, however, when an anonymous correspondent informed Shaftesbury – correctly, as it turned out – that the marriage of the Donegalls in 1795 had been performed illegally and that all their children were therefore illegitimate; the legitimate heir was a nephew of Donegall. After three anxious years, when every possible expedient to validate the marriage was tried without success, parliament in 1822 not only amended the law covering such cases but also (most unusually) made the change retrospective, in order to accommodate Donegall." DIB: https://www.dib.ie/index.php/biography/chichester-george-augustus-a1646

As it happens, it was researching the Canadian descendants of the May Baronets that brought me to William Ponsonby, Sibella Turpin and the uncertainty surrounding Katherine Stradling. In case it might be of use, I'd be happy to share any information that I have regarding the descendants or ancestors of Sir (James) Edward May.

All the best!

Andrew

[John Higgins]

I agree with John Brandon that the fact that Humphrey Hill and Elizabeth Ludlow had a daughter Dorothy married to Gabriel Chambers of Petton means that Mary Hill obviously cannot also be the daughter of Humphrey Hill and Elizabeth Ludlow, as in the descent which started this discussion.

The Hill pedigree in the Shropshire Vis. mentioned above does not show Mary as a daughter of John Hill of Court of Hill (or show her anyplace in that pedigree). But the Chambers/Chambre pedigree on p. 99 of the same source does say that Mary, the wife of Richard Chambers of Petton, was the daughter of John Hill of Court of Hill. Together with the BLGI references, that seems the best that we're going to be able to do. I suspect that someone simply confused the two Chambers/Hill marriage.

And this change also means that the Vernon connection, which was causing all the chronological problems, goes away.

BTW Brad pointed out offline that the family of Hill of Court of Hill is covered (under the name of Hill-Lowe) in a BLG pedigree through the 1952 edition of BLG. But that pedigree is simply a straight male-line descent, with no daughters shown. So...of no use to us.

[Guy Vincent]

Andrew, Although I haven't found any baptism or burial date for Mary Villers/Chambre, she married Calcott 6th October 1597 in Cropredy. Calcotts' will dated 1628 and proved 1636 makes no mention of a wife so presumably Mary was already dead. Marys' father Edward, in his will of 1600 proved 1602 mentions his wife Mary. Perhaps this is the mother of Mary who married Calcott. She could be a subsequent wife but usually would be referred to as "my now wife". Edward also mentions his son in law Calcott confirming that they were married by the date of his will.

Guy

[John Higgins]

"Constance, daughter of Sir Pies Griffith" may be a visitation concoction. The Welsh Medieval Database at Family Search identifies Morris Ludlow's wife as Margred [or Margred] ferch Sir Griffith Vaughan (or Gruffudd Vychan) and gives several sources. The same identification is given in Wood's Sheriffs of Montgomeryshire [p. 370), which has quite a long biography of her father. There are also biographies of him in both ODNB and the Dictionary of Welsh Biography; the latter is here: https://biography.wales/article/s-GRUF-FYC-1447

Sir Griffith Vaughan appears on table Gwenwys 3 of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (although strangely his daughter is omitted from that table). He has an extensive Welsh genealogy but apparently no connections to English monarchs in that ancestry.

[Brad Verity]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 10:23:14 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
> 2) I appreciated you letting us know that Sybilla Turpin was removed from your database. As per my earlier post/thread, I am hoping to explore additional corroborating evidence in regard to her parentage and that of Mary Villiers. Any new information would be very welcome and would added to that discussion.

Andrew, I removed Sybilla from my database, but there remains the issue of John Nichols, in his 1807 'Pedigree of Gobion and Turpin, of Knaptoft', assigning to Sir George Turpin (1529-1583) and Frances Lane (descended from Edward III), "A daughter, married to .............."

In 2018, Thomas Bonnett suggested that this daughter was Elizabeth Turpin, first wife of Andrew Halford, Heir of Wistow Hall (c.1603-1657)
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/eGoeH_wZRD0/m/f-ICqr0WCAAJ

But the chronology is off for that identification. As any daughter of Sir George Turpin could not have been born later than 1583, the year of Sir George's death (his son and heir Sir William Turpin was born about 1558), while Andrew Halford was not born until 1603. His wife Elizabeth would not have been at least twenty years his senior.

So the question remains as to the identity of the daughter of Sir George and Frances (Lane) Turpin. And another question - where to place Elizabeth (Turpin) Halford in the Turpin pedigree (Nichols doesn't include her, nor make any mention of a Turpin-Halford marriage) - also arises.

[snip]

> After three anxious years, when every possible expedient to validate the marriage was tried without success, parliament in 1822 not only amended the law covering such cases but also (most unusually) made the change retrospective, in order to accommodate Donegall." DIB: https://www.dib.ie/index.php/biography/chichester-george-augustus-a1646

Wow, a fascinating story - thank you for sharing. I don't know enough about the reign of George IV, and all of the politics involved in it, to place this 1822 amendment in an historical perspective. But clearly the Chichester family was influential and important, for enough generations, that the 2nd Marquess of Donegall could be accommodated by Parliament in such a way. I'm surprised the ODNB doesn't have an entry for the 2nd marquess - it seems to me that he deserves one, at least for this 1822 decision of parliament.

> As it happens, it was researching the Canadian descendants of the May Baronets that brought me to William Ponsonby, Sibella Turpin and the uncertainty surrounding Katherine Stradling. In case it might be of use, I'd be happy to share any information that I have regarding the descendants or ancestors of Sir (James) Edward May.

Thank you for this offer - I, for one, may well take you up on it when the time comes to get the May family into my database.

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 12:06:38 PM UTC-8, Guy Vincent wrote:
> Andrew, Although I haven't found any baptism or burial date for Mary Villers/Chambre, she married Calcott 6th October 1597 in Cropredy. Calcotts' will dated 1628 and proved 1636 makes no mention of a wife so presumably Mary was already dead. Marys' father Edward, in his will of 1600 proved 1602 mentions his wife Mary. Perhaps this is the mother of Mary who married Calcott. She could be a subsequent wife but usually would be referred to as "my now wife". Edward also mentions his son in law Calcott confirming that they were married by the date of his will.

Guy, Mary (Villiers) Chambre was dead by 1611, as Calcot Chambre married his second wife Lucy Gobard (descended from Edward III) in September of that year. Lucy (Gobard) Chambre died 28 August 1622, six years before Calcot made out his will, thus no mention of a wife in that document.

I agree with John Higgins that, despite the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicestershire, the strongest likelihood is that Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall had only the one wife, Mary Fisher (who married 2ndly, Ralph Kettell, president of Trinity College Oxford), and that she was the mother of all three of his daughters and co-heiresses, including Mary (Villiers) Chambre. I've adjusted my database accordingly.

> On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 8:51:24 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Maybe Sir Peirs Griffith could be investigated for any interesting lines?

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:22:34 PM UTC-8, jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> "Constance, daughter of Sir Pies Griffith" may be a visitation concoction. The Welsh Medieval Database at Family Search identifies Morris Ludlow's wife as Margred [or Margred] ferch Sir Griffith Vaughan (or Gruffudd Vychan) and gives several sources. The same identification is given in Wood's Sheriffs of Montgomeryshire [p. 370), which has quite a long biography of her father. There are also biographies of him in both ODNB and the Dictionary of Welsh Biography; the latter is here: https://biography.wales/article/s-GRUF-FYC-1447
>
> Sir Griffith Vaughan appears on table Gwenwys 3 of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (although strangely his daughter is omitted from that table). He has an extensive Welsh genealogy but apparently no connections to English monarchs in that ancestry.

Thank you for following up, John, on identifying the father of Morris Ludlow's wife. As these individuals are not descended from Edward I, they fall outside my scope of research, and outside my wheelhouse actually. But your expertise with Bartrum and his research can open up a lot of medieval Welsh ancestry for the descendants of Gov. George Wyllys of Connecticut (1590-1645).
https://museumofcthistory.org/2015/08/george-wyllys/

Cheers, -----Brad

[Guy Vincent]

Thanks Brad, I'd forgotten about the Gobard marriage. I've just had a look through Arthur Darcys' will of 1560 and there is no mention of an illegitimate daughter Frances who in previous discussion has been considerd the Frances who married Peter Gobard. I notice that Arthur did have a legitimate son Francis who in the will appears to be the youngest.

Guy

[John Higgins]

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 4:24:04 PM UTC-8, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 10:23:14 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:

> I agree with John Higgins that, despite the Villiers pedigree in the 1619 Visitation of Leicestershire, the strongest likelihood is that Edward Villiers of Hothorpe Hall had only the one wife, Mary Fisher (who married 2ndly, Ralph Kettell, president of Trinity College Oxford), and that she was the mother of all three of his daughters and co-heiresses, including Mary (Villiers) Chambre. I've adjusted my database accordingly.

A small but important correction:

I agree that all three of Edward Villiers' children were by his wife Mary Fisher, but I don't believe that we concluded that Mary was the ONLY wife of Edward Villers. There is a good deal of uncertainty about the antecedents of Sibella Turpin, but I think it's clear that she WAS the 1st wife of Edward Villiers. After all, Sibella was the link by which the Bathurst descendants of Edward Villers claimed to be "founders' kin" at Winchester College. The claim was later disallowed because Edward Villers's daughter Elizabeth was found to be a daughter of the second wife - not because of any question about the existence of Sibella Villiers.

[Andrew Z]

This is great in regard to Sibella Turpin - thank you so much Guy and Brad, I really appreciated Brad's input and Guy's research, especially on Edward Villiers' will. I will copy these comments (along with John's) to the Sibella Turpin thread and respond to them there.

The marquess of Donegall scandal was probably what brought the second May baronet the most notoriety. Still, the family was proud of the connection since Anna's brother, Rev. Edward May, named one of his sons George Augustus Chichester May. I'll be continuing and expanding my research on the May family - please don't hesitate to let me know whenever I can be of assistance. Finding verified Edward I and Edward III (none so far) descents was a good way for me to explore corroborated lineages.

Also, the HOP article on Calcot Chambre has some details on Lucy Gobert. It's interesting to note Calcot's father, George, decided to name three of his sons Calcot.
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/chambre-calcot-1573-1635