United States Falling Behind EVERYONE In Physics, Science, Rockets, EVERYTHING.

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kT

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Sep 6, 2008, 10:53:02 PM9/6/08
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http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514

One look at NASA's Orion on Ares I (Constellation) and it's easy to see,
up front and personal, the tragic and inevitable decline of science,
physics and rocketry in the United States. The rest of the world has
already noticed, but Americans are too wrapped up in their vanities to
see what is already glaringly obvious to the most casual of observers.

I'm going to try to codify this phenomenon in a research proposal.

Perhaps it can be reversed, but I doubt it.

Thirty years of Reagan Idiocracy.

BradGuth

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Sep 6, 2008, 11:14:37 PM9/6/08
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And do you really think there's not been a Zionist/Nazi psychopath or
bipolar cartel/cabal of faith-based Idiocracy hard at work?

With the truth(s) becoming exposed, what's not at risk of failing
before our dumbfounded eyes?

What part of our frequent "told you so" still doesn't register with
the intentionally uneducated and misinformed public?

Once in perpetual denial as to a given lie that has been a mainstream
corner stone of ones entire life, of whatever's left to work with
isn't hardly worth salvaging, now is it.

~ BG

hanson

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Sep 7, 2008, 12:36:27 AM9/7/08
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"BradGuth" <brad...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7ce3bb9f-fd4a-4fbd...@n38g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
>
Thomas Elifritz <kT> wrote:
>> http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514
>> "...the tragic and inevitable decline of science,

>> physics and rocketry in the United States.
>> The rest of the world has already noticed, but
>> Americans are too wrapped up in their vanities to
>> see what is already glaringly obvious to the most
>> casual of observers."
>> I'm going to try to codify this phenomenon in a
>> research proposal.
>> Perhaps it can be reversed, but I doubt it.
>> Thirty years of Reagan Idiocracy.
>
"BradGuth" <brad...@gmail.com> wrote>

> And do you really think there's not been a Zionist/Nazi
> psychopath or bipolar cartel/cabal of faith-based
> Idiocracy hard at work?
> With the truth(s) becoming exposed, what's not at risk
> of failing before our dumbfounded eyes?
> What part of our frequent "told you so" still doesn't
> register with the intentionally uneducated and
> misinformed public?
> Once in perpetual denial as to a given lie that has
> been a mainstream corner stone of ones entire life,
> of whatever's left to work with isn't hardly worth
> salvaging, now is it.
>
hanson wrote:
ahahahaha... All those symptoms you guys
bellyache about are simply & only the groans
that arise out of the loud noises from the
**** RE-TOOLING OF AMERICA ****
for its role in a Global economy... ahahaha...
Thanks for the laughs.... ahahahanson

jonathan

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Sep 7, 2008, 11:42:59 AM9/7/08
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"kT" <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote in message
news:anHwk.47484$Rs1....@newsfe08.iad...
> http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514
>


Super Collider? The ultimate in reductionist goals. This type of science
defines the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful kind
of science possible....ie...it defines 'pure' science.

I would bet after all the billions and decades spent on such
a collider, the information and data gained would be
comprehensible and/or useful to perhaps a couple dozen
people in the entire world. Everyone else would have
to take their word for it the whole effort accomplished
anything. This new collider is the result of snobbish
European politicians being taken advantage of by some
gibberish speaking physicists with Big Degrees.

And what about the huge hole in the ground the Euros
have been throwing money into for decades called
fusion power?

We gave up on our big collider because enough people
...over here...realized the idiocy of the entire concept.

Even though most here are still ignorant of this fact, we're
now in the scientific error of complexity (systems)...not
reductionism (smashing things into little-bitty-pieces).
Where the attempt is to comprehend the properties which
occur as a result of the /totality/ of reality and it's near infinite
interactions and randomness. Instead of stomping reality
into dust ...as if that'll make sense of anything.

You've forgotten how far ahead the US is with complexity science.
Somehow I think the Euro snobs will be slow to accept these
new ideas.

The Use of Complexity Science
A survey of federal departments and agencies.

"Almost every federal department was found to have
some type of complexity-related research underway."
http://www.hcs.ucla.edu/DoEreport.pdf

Ask yourself, how can one scientific discipline apply
to ....every dept? From defense to education. From
agriculture to Los Alamos? Doesn't that get anyone's curiosity???
One science that redefines...all other disciplines ...including
hard, soft and philosophical.

Complexity defines the exact opposite in method from a collider.

Smashing everything into little-bitty-pieces in order to figure
out why we're here is literally a method resulting from our instincts
...our ANIMAL instincts. Which seeks to find certainty and simplicity
as a source of comfort in an ever changing and dangerous forest.
Our animal/caveman instincts prefers to pounce on that which
changes/moves or is different, or that which stands out from
the background.

And then we seek to find predictability in the way such things change
or move, to become better at the predator/prey game.

Only through our intellect will we grasp that the opposite frame of
complexity/uncertainty is the source of the most important properties
of nature and reality. It's what's common to all, the background, which
produces the source of our existence and predictability of the future.
Randomness and the fog of uncertainty generate spontaneous
cyclic order and provide the impetus for the common evolution
of the physical and living realms. Not particle properties.

As with a cloud, where neither condensation or evaporation dominate.
Or a market system, where neither the producer or consumer dominate.
Or a society, where neither law or freedom dominate.

Where both opposites extremes are intractably entangled, so that
one can't tell which-is-which, so that neither and both persistently
dominate. This is the system wide property which produces
the impetus for spontaneous order...for evolution and
self tuning or self organization.

As with evolution, where neither genetics or mutation dominate.
Or neither gravity or cosmic expansion for a universe.
Or where neither matter or energy dominates as with light.

Where neither static of chaotic behavior dominates..order
emerges.

At the union of opposite extremes, where classical and quantum
methods both fail, are intractably entangled, is the one place
where meaning and the ultimate source of nature is found.

Where uncertainty is highest is the source of order.
Science needs to change it's frame from seeking certainty
in the components, to uncertainty in a system.

The search for truth is now a search for uncertainty/complexity.

All you Dark Agers out there need to be told this at least once.
So you can't go saying it was kept from you all this time.

> One look at NASA's Orion on Ares I (Constellation) and it's easy to see, up
> front and personal, the tragic and inevitable decline of science, physics and
> rocketry in the United States. The rest of the world has already noticed, but
> Americans are too wrapped up in their vanities to see what is already
> glaringly obvious to the most casual of observers.


So you believe all that ability has vanished? Because our military
seems to be producing all kinds of interesting systems when
it comes to missile defense. Don't you understand just how
militaristic the Bush/Cheney administration has been?
The military comes first in all these areas, and they've been
in a race to militarize space for some time now.

All this means is that the very latest advances are all classified.
What they admit to building is probably ten or fifteen year old
accomplishments.

We're not in the midst of a plan to colonize the moon and mars.
Where in a race to build the Star Ship Enterprise!

We're not that far from replacing guns and rockets with
lasers and microwave weapons ya know.

kT

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Sep 7, 2008, 1:09:08 PM9/7/08
to
jonathan wrote:

> "kT" <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote in message
> news:anHwk.47484$Rs1....@newsfe08.iad...
>> http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514
>>
>
>
> Super Collider? The ultimate in reductionist goals. This type of science
> defines the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful kind
> of science possible....ie...it defines 'pure' science.

Shhhhhhh ... don't let them in on the secret!

It's the only edge we've got anymore.

[snip]

> We're not in the midst of a plan to colonize the moon and mars.
> Where in a race to build the Star Ship Enterprise!

And a free electron laser VUV spectroscopy facility!

O' oh, I feel another song coming on!

http://www.wifel.wisc.edu/

>> I'm going to try to codify this phenomenon in a research proposal.
>>
>> Perhaps it can be reversed, but I doubt it.
>>
>> Thirty years of Reagan Idiocracy.

Which is a mere prelude to reversing the idiocracy and building the
rocket which will allow us to deliver the components of the star ship
Enterprise to low Earth orbit, to be subsequently assembled. À la ISS.

http://webpages.charter.net/tsiolkovsky/

Pat Flannery

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Sep 8, 2008, 2:43:27 AM9/8/08
to

jonathan wrote:
> Super Collider? The ultimate in reductionist goals. This type of science
> defines the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful kind
> of science possible....ie...it defines 'pure' science.

I'm still keen to see CERN crank it up...about the time that Stephen
Hawking thinks: "Did I make a slip there? Was that a plus where a minus
should have gone in that formula around thirty years ago?"
Then, in around a matter of a hour or so, the entire solar system
collapses into the black hole where Earth used to be.
Many would be appalled to conceive of such a possibility.
I'd find that to be absolutely hilariously funny. :-D

Pat

Androcles

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Sep 8, 2008, 6:15:38 AM9/8/08
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"Pat Flannery" <fla...@daktel.com> wrote in message
news:A7KdncEoUaEDVFnV...@posted.northdakotatelephone...

Don't worry, Brian (the brain) Cox is ready to step into Hawking's shoes
when nothing happens -- or should I say his wheelchair?
In watching BBC's "Horizon" the optimistic glow on the fresh young
face of that nutter restored my undying faith in the absolute (not even
relative) stupidity of theoretical physicists.
http://www.apolloschildren.com:16080/brian/

BradGuth

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Sep 8, 2008, 9:52:03 AM9/8/08
to
On Sep 6, 9:36 pm, "hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote:
> "BradGuth" <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>
> news:7ce3bb9f-fd4a-4fbd...@n38g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
>
> Thomas Elifritz <kT> wrote:
> >>http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514
> >> "...the tragic and inevitable decline of science,
> >> physics and rocketry in the United States.
> >> The rest of the world has already noticed, but
> >> Americans are too wrapped up in their vanities to
> >> see what is already glaringly obvious to the most
> >> casual of observers."
> >> I'm going to try to codify this phenomenon in a
> >> research proposal.
> >> Perhaps it can be reversed, but I doubt it.
> >> Thirty years of Reagan Idiocracy.
>
> "BradGuth" <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote>> And do you really think there's not been a Zionist/Nazi

> > psychopath or bipolar cartel/cabal of faith-based
> > Idiocracy hard at work?
> > With the truth(s) becoming exposed, what's not at risk
> > of failing before our dumbfounded eyes?
> > What part of our frequent "told you so" still doesn't
> > register with the intentionally uneducated and
> > misinformed public?
> > Once in perpetual denial as to a given lie that has
> > been a mainstream corner stone of ones entire life,
> > of whatever's left to work with isn't hardly worth
> > salvaging, now is it.
>
> hanson wrote:
>
> ahahahaha... All those symptoms you guys
> bellyache about are simply & only the groans
> that arise out of the loud noises from the
> **** RE-TOOLING OF AMERICA ****
> for its role in a Global economy... ahahaha...
> Thanks for the laughs.... ahahahanson

We aim to please.

~ BG

Martha Adams

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Sep 8, 2008, 1:00:27 PM9/8/08
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"Androcles" <Headm...@Hogwarts.physics> wrote in message
news:jX6xk.365555$D01.1...@newsfe17.ams2...

It's interesting to conjecture what would happen if we *did*
get a black-hole object. My guess is our planet would be a
few years falling into it, since energy released from the
falling would create a pressure field around it, thus slowing
the infall. *That means* we'd have time for an intense and
very fast space settlement program before increasingly
frequent earthquakes made large structures impossible to
build and use.

I'd propose for this a settlement on Luna farside as the
best compromise between maximum distance and minimum time to
build the settlement. The work would be to ship out as much
material as possible before further work becomes impossible,
and provide the 30-60 settlers with frozen human eggs and
sperm to maintain the necessary genetic diversity. It's an
interesting topic.

Actually, I can't agree with the idea the Super Collider and
theoretical physics and cosmology generally, are useless.
Back in the late 1800's, state of the art in
theoretical physics was how does light get created; how do
electric and magnetic fields work to move energies, and etc,
leading to things we take for granted today such as radio and
radar, transformers, computers etc etc. Of course there were
people like Jonathan then, convinced their kerosene lanterns,
gas lighting, and telegraph systems were completely all
anyone could need.

Having known some theoretical physicists personally, I can
speak from my own experience to say, they are some of the
quickest and brightest people around. When he says they
are doing

"...the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful
kind of science possible...."

Jonathan signals not knowing anything of the people or of
the work.

Titeotwawki -- mha [sci.space.policy 2008 Sep 08]


Ian Parker

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Sep 8, 2008, 2:29:31 PM9/8/08
to
On 8 Sep, 18:00, "Martha Adams" <mh...@verizon.net> wrote:
> It's interesting to conjecture what would happen if we *did*
> get a black-hole object.  My guess is our planet would be a
> few years falling into it, since energy released from the
> falling would create a pressure field around it, thus slowing
> the infall.  *That means* we'd have time for an intense and
> very fast space settlement program before increasingly
> frequent earthquakes made large structures impossible to
> build and use.

If, if, if. You realise that it is completely impossible. A black hole
is NOT black. 14TeV seems a small energy, but suppose a BH were to be
created it wouls disappear almost immediately because of Hawking
radiation. Let us look at 14TeV at a point. In energy terms this
represents 1.6*10^-19 *14*10^12N or 2.2*10^-6N. This is

2.2*10^-6/9*10^16Kg or about 1.9*10^-22Kg. This has a Swartzchild
radius of 6.67*10^-11*1.9*10^-22/9*10^16m or about 10^-46m. The
hadrons cannot in fact enter this space because of plank uncertainty.
If we have string Theory and a large number iof dimensions we will get
BHs that reflect the different forces in a TOE.

As I said Hawking radiation would destroy such a hole as soon as it
was formed. Hawking radiation would be a little bit different in the
case of multidimensional holes as they would exhibit nuclear forces as
well as just EM radiation.

No, I think the Blach Hole idea reflects a deeper motive and
psychology. At the end of the ice age sea levels rose. The Thames was
once a tributory of the Rhine. Adam and Eve lived in the Shatt al
Arab, in what is now sea. The story of Genesis is in fact an attempt
of people to explain what was going on. Nothing about ice sheets, no
God was angry with Man because Man ate of the tree of knowledge. Even
at that point in history people thought the scientists of the day were
asking too many questions. This is the real point. Black holes can be
dismissed.


>
> I'd propose for this a settlement on Luna farside as the
> best compromise between maximum distance and minimum time to
> build the settlement.  The work would be to ship out as much
> material as possible before further work becomes impossible,
> and provide the 30-60 settlers with frozen human eggs and
> sperm to maintain the necessary genetic diversity.  It's an
> interesting topic.

I would propose nothing.


>
> Actually, I can't agree with the idea the Super Collider and
> theoretical physics and cosmology generally, are useless.
> Back in the late 1800's, state of the art in
> theoretical physics was how does light get created; how do
> electric and magnetic fields work to move energies, and etc,
> leading to things we take for granted today such as radio and
> radar, transformers, computers etc etc.  Of course there were
> people like Jonathan then, convinced their kerosene lanterns,
> gas lighting, and telegraph systems were completely all
> anyone could need.
>
> Having known some theoretical physicists personally, I can
> speak from my own experience to say, they are some of the
> quickest and brightest people around.  When he says they
> are doing
>
> "...the most useless, most irrelevant and least meaningful
> kind of science possible...."
>

The original topic was is the US falling behind? I think the US is.
There are a number of reasons for this. The pschology of Theoretical
Physics is I think important. It may not produce immediate results but
a society that fails to invest will :-

1) Not inspire its young people.

2) Many scientists visit Geneva from overseas. You will get the
benefit of their thoughts on a number of topics.

3) There is a lot of work going on, such as the Grid which are of
considerable relevance practically.

I think the US is falling behind both Europe and Asia. I think there
are a number of reasons.

1) The failure to build a supercollider.

2) Creationalism, the view that the World is no older than the Ice
Age.

3) Governmenr interference with things like Stem Cell research.

4) The US is now a lot less welcoming to foreigners than it was in the
time of Kennedy.

None of these factors is decisive in itself, but taken together they
are a deterrent for young people to study science. I could add to this
the fact that a degree in sports journalism is more highly regarded
than one in science. Or Arabic for that matter! Decisions are taken at
a political level without a single expert being consulted.

The fact that capability in space has declined is obvious. Armstrong
and Aldrin went to the Moon on the top of a Saturn 5. With much more
advanced general technology Ares cannot be made to work. Of couse,
scientists go into private industry rather than government. Google
employs a lot of very bright people.

I think we can add another factor.

5) In the US good scientific minds do not go into government.

I write this as a European. Why should I care anyway.


- Ian Parker

Damon Hill

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Sep 8, 2008, 2:46:25 PM9/8/08
to
Ian Parker <ianpa...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:3c5d0ed9-73da-46c3...@m44g2000hsc.googlegr
oups.com:


> I think the US is falling behind both Europe and Asia. I
> think there are a number of reasons.
>
> 1) The failure to build a supercollider.

Too busy building advanced semiconductor fabs--those are
hugely expensive.



> 2) Creationalism, the view that the World is no older than
> the Ice Age.

Quite a lot of people here, most in fact, don't believe in
that. Still, the fundamentalist conservatives are inhibiting
progress.

> 3) Governmenr interference with things like Stem Cell
> research.

Got more specific examples; this seems trivial by itself.



> 4) The US is now a lot less welcoming to foreigners than it
> was in the time of Kennedy.

You don't live here, do you? Spanish has become the 2nd
national language by default. We're not as bilingual as
Canada but our economic wealth attracts much immigration.

--Damon

jonathan

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Sep 8, 2008, 7:45:50 PM9/8/08
to

"Pat Flannery" <fla...@daktel.com> wrote in message
news:A7KdncEoUaEDVFnV...@posted.northdakotatelephone...
>
>


DOOMSDAY FEARS SPARK LAWSUIT

"The builders of the world's biggest particle collider are being sued
in federal court over fears that the experiment might create
globe-gobbling black holes or never-before-seen strains
of matter that would destroy the planet."
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/27/823924.aspx


"One experiment at the LHC, known as ALICE, seeks to re-create the
conditions that existed just an instant after the big bang"
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/25/1290475.aspx

Wait just a freakin' minute...didn't the universe suddenly and monstrously
....inflate....just after the big bang? Maybe we'll become that tiny
particle inside a huge new universe. Maybe they think shrinking us down
to subatomic size will allow them to finally find the long lost "God Particle".

Leave it to the Euros to blow up the planet again.


s

> Pat
>

Al

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Sep 8, 2008, 7:48:00 PM9/8/08
to

Not thirty years of Idiocracy, thirty years of Kakistocracy!!!

No end in sight, H L Mencken must be roaring in his grave!

Bill Penrose

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Sep 9, 2008, 1:41:36 AM9/9/08
to
On Sep 6, 7:53 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote:
> http://www.newsweek.com/id/157514
>
> One look at NASA's Orion on Ares I (Constellation) and it's easy to see,
>   up front and personal, the tragic and inevitable decline of science,
> physics and rocketry in the United States.

But we're way ahead in intelligent design, flat earth theory, and
alternate logical systems.

DB

Message has been deleted

Ian Parker

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Sep 9, 2008, 6:25:24 AM9/9/08
to
On 8 Sep, 19:46, Damon Hill <damon16...@comcast.not> wrote:
> Ian Parker <ianpark...@gmail.com> wrote innews:3c5d0ed9-73da-46c3...@m44g2000hsc.googlegr

> oups.com:
>
> > I think the US is falling behind both Europe and Asia. I
> > think there are a number of reasons.
>
> > 1) The failure to build a supercollider.
>
> Too busy building advanced semiconductor fabs--those are
> hugely expensive.
>
The problem is the US isn't. There is a $50billion adverse trade gap
in high tech products. OK a lot of that may well be in assembly and
also in "old hat" chips. Still automation in this field mitigates the
effect of higher US wage levels. The US has allowed itself to fall
behind in mobile phone technology, to take one example.

Once a country is good it tends to stay good. Scandanavia is good and
looks like remaining so. The US got ioff to a poor start because it
lacked a standard. This reflects the poor quality of public policy. A
Europe consisting of a great many countries managed to agree a
standard which the US failed to do.

> > 2) Creationalism, the view that the World is no older than
> > the Ice Age.
>
> Quite a lot of people here, most in fact, don't believe in
> that. Still, the fundamentalist conservatives are inhibiting
> progress.
>
> > 3) Governmenr interference with things like Stem Cell
> > research.
>
> Got more specific examples; this seems trivial by itself.
>

If you read me carefully you would realise that there is no single
factor. The important factor is attracting young people into science.
Obama wants to end the ban on stem cell research. That will do no
good, you cannot have a research program which proceeds in fits and
starts.

One other serious consideration is the nature of the Genesis story
itself. No one can say CERN will melt the Antarctic ice cap (as in the
Garden of Eden). Black holes are (just) semi respectable. Overiding
everything is the feeling that there are areas of knowledge we should
not be enquiring into. This is to me immensely damaging.

Fundamentalism has little effect in Europe and none at all in the Far
East. It is as well to remember this.

> > 4) The US is now a lot less welcoming to foreigners than it
> > was in the time of Kennedy.
>
> You don't live here, do you?  Spanish has become the 2nd
> national language by default.  We're not as bilingual as
> Canada but our economic wealth attracts much immigration.
>

I was talking in the main about the ease of obtaining student visas
etc. The "war" on Terror. Al Qaeda say they are religious yet they are
overwhemingly supporting Europe and China. That isd what historians of
the future will conclude. I think they will be even less happy with
what will follow US dominance than they are with the US.

If you were taking a history exam in the mid to late 21st century you
would be expected to list all these factors in a question about the
decline of US science and (ultimately) US political power.


- Ian Parker

BradGuth

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Sep 9, 2008, 9:15:36 AM9/9/08
to

As you say, many factors are responsible for the ongoing demise and
subsequent "decline of US science and (ultimately) US political
power".

Firstly, our public education of physics and science sucks, not to
mention our having to learn and accept lies instead of truths.

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth

BradGuth

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Sep 9, 2008, 9:17:52 AM9/9/08
to
On Sep 8, 10:50 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote:
> In America, one has complete freedom ... to be an idiot.

Make that a village idiot, because it takes a village of such idiots
in order to produce yet another of their own kind.

Eric Chomko

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Sep 9, 2008, 10:44:05 AM9/9/08
to
On Sep 9, 6:25 am, Ian Parker <ianpark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8 Sep, 19:46, Damon Hill <damon16...@comcast.not> wrote:> Ian Parker <ianpark...@gmail.com> wrote innews:3c5d0ed9-73da-46c3...@m44g2000hsc.googlegr
> > oups.com:
>
> > > I think the US is falling behind both Europe and Asia. I
> > > think there are a number of reasons.
>
> > > 1) The failure to build a supercollider.
>
> > Too busy building advanced semiconductor fabs--those are
> > hugely expensive.
>
> The problem is the US isn't. There is a $50billion adverse trade gap
> in high tech products. OK a lot of that may well be in assembly and
> also in "old hat" chips. Still automation in this field mitigates the
> effect of higher US wage levels. The US has allowed itself to fall
> behind in mobile phone technology, to take one example.
>
> Once a country is good it tends to stay good. Scandanavia is good and
> looks like remaining so. The US got ioff to a poor start because it
> lacked a standard. This reflects the poor quality of public policy. A
> Europe consisting of a great many countries managed to agree a
> standard which the US failed to do.

Why am I compelled to say that the euro will crush the pound before it
does the dollar after reading the above?

>
> > > 2) Creationalism, the view that the World is no older than
> > > the Ice Age.
>
> > Quite a lot of people here, most in fact, don't believe in
> > that. Still, the fundamentalist conservatives are inhibiting
> > progress.
>
> > > 3) Governmenr interference with things like Stem Cell
> > > research.
>
> > Got more specific examples; this seems trivial by itself.
>
> If you read me carefully you would realise that there is no single
> factor. The important factor is attracting young people into science.
> Obama wants to end the ban on stem cell research. That will do no
> good, you cannot have a research program which proceeds in fits and
> starts.
>
> One other serious consideration is the nature of the Genesis story
> itself. No one can say CERN will melt the Antarctic ice cap (as in the
> Garden of Eden). Black holes are (just) semi respectable. Overiding
> everything is the feeling that there are areas of knowledge we should
> not be enquiring into. This is to me immensely damaging.
>
> Fundamentalism has little effect in Europe and none at all in the Far
> East. It is as well to remember this.

Even the Muslims who are hellbent on destroying infidels? Yes, I know
you meant Christianity.

> > > 4) The US is now a lot less welcoming to foreigners than it
> > > was in the time of Kennedy.
>
> > You don't live here, do you?  Spanish has become the 2nd
> > national language by default.  We're not as bilingual as
> > Canada but our economic wealth attracts much immigration.
>
> I was talking in the main about the ease of obtaining student visas
> etc. The "war" on Terror. Al Qaeda say they are religious yet they are
> overwhemingly supporting Europe and China. That isd what historians of
> the future will conclude. I think they will be even less happy with
> what will follow US dominance than they are with the US.
>
> If you were taking a history exam in the mid to late 21st century you
> would be expected to list all these factors in a question about the
> decline of US science and (ultimately) US political power.

Assuming that actually happens. Somebody has to lead the world away
from fossil fuel, why not the US?

Eric

Eric Chomko

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Sep 9, 2008, 10:52:15 AM9/9/08
to
On Sep 9, 1:50 am, kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote:
> Bill Penrose wrote:
> In America, one has complete freedom ... to be an idiot.

Hey all those guides for idiots have to have an audience.

Eric Chomko

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Sep 9, 2008, 10:52:40 AM9/9/08
to

And you would know that!

Ian Parker

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Sep 9, 2008, 12:18:59 PM9/9/08
to
Currency fluctations have occured from time to time. I hope that
Britain eventually joins the Euro. I think it will have to eventually.

I think it is probably inevitable that the US with 300 million is
going to give way to Asia. China and India both have 1 billion apiece.
I think too that another major factor has been that Europe is now
coming together and producing world class institutions.

However the relative decline of America has been considerably faster
than raw demographics would predict. Fundamentalism has grown since
the time of Kennedy and the Moon landings when the US was at its
zerith. The right wing of the Republican Party has been waging a
clever campaign. It is putting out that what is needed is folksy
frontier syle remedies and has contrasted the (real) America with the
élites of Washington.

Simplistic solutions are basically what caused Iraq.

As far as America leading the world away from fossil fuels is
concerned - yes it has the resources - but does it have the scientific
expertise. Remember all the expertise in in private industry.

I think the decline of America is bound to happen on a demographic
resource basis. The decline though under the Shrub has been quite
dramatic.

BTW - I did say the FAR East. The Middle East is an area with
potential, but is being held back by Religion.


- Ian Parker

zzbu...@netscape.net

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Sep 9, 2008, 1:33:08 PM9/9/08
to

Impossible. Since just about everythnig done in U.S. rocket
science,
wasn't rocket science, it was Raytheon science.
Which is why a lot of US science people,with actual non zero
science brains,
started programs in non-Martian Solar Energy, PV Cells, RISC
Computers, Parallel Procesors,,
neo wind Energy, fiber optics, HDTV, CD, DVD, mp3, Ebooks, Blogs,
Adpative A.I.,
WWW, On-Line Publishing, post-neandtheral robotics, drones, AUVs,
AAVs,
Cruise Missiles, Laser-Guided Bombs, and Stealth, and said to hell
with the
stooges running U.S. aero-science.

Damon Hill

unread,
Sep 9, 2008, 6:43:21 PM9/9/08
to
Ian Parker <ianpa...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:e355430f-1090-4d26...@25g2000hsx.googlegro
ups.com:

> Currency fluctations have occured from time to time. I hope
> that Britain eventually joins the Euro. I think it will
> have to eventually.
>
> I think it is probably inevitable that the US with 300
> million is going to give way to Asia. China and India both
> have 1 billion apiece. I think too that another major
> factor has been that Europe is now coming together and
> producing world class institutions.
>
> However the relative decline of America has been
> considerably faster than raw demographics would predict.
> Fundamentalism has grown since the time of Kennedy and the
> Moon landings when the US was at its zerith. The right wing
> of the Republican Party has been waging a clever campaign.
> It is putting out that what is needed is folksy frontier
> syle remedies and has contrasted the (real) America with
> the élites of Washington.

And had you studied American political history in depth going
back to the 19th century, you'd find that things haven't
changed much at all. Does Prohibition, a Constitutional
amendment since rescinded by another Amendment, ring a bell
with you? Guess who pushed that through?--it was an attempt
at Christain sharia that went a long ways towards
institutionalizing organized crime instead of promoting
morality. Contemporary fundamentalists are pantywaists
compared to their great-grandparents. These things have
their cycles.

> Simplistic solutions are basically what caused Iraq.

Yes, I see lots of simplistic short-term thinking here.

> As far as America leading the world away from fossil fuels
> is concerned - yes it has the resources - but does it have
> the scientific expertise. Remember all the expertise in in
> private industry.

p-B11 aneutronic fusion, polywell; might be a surprise here



> I think the decline of America is bound to happen on a
> demographic resource basis. The decline though under the
> Shrub has been quite dramatic.
>
> BTW - I did say the FAR East. The Middle East is an area
> with potential, but is being held back by Religion.

Religion is a reflection of the human culture; I don't hold
much hope for the profoundly conservative Arab culture,
locked in thousands of years of tribal culture and petty
egotism.

Don't dance on our grave just yet, we might pull you smugly
sanctimonius Euros down with us. If your Muslim immigrants
don't do that for us.

--Damon

Message has been deleted

hanson

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Sep 9, 2008, 10:59:33 PM9/9/08
to
Damon Hill wrote:
Religion is a reflection of the human culture;
>
Thomas Elifritz "kT" <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote
No wonder humans are such assholes.
>
hanso wrote:
... ahahahaha.. So Thomas, what kind of life form
are you, save having called yourself an asshole?
... ahahahaha....
>
>
Damos' societal notion can be refined into a more
detailed one down to the individual level by observing
that
*** Nobody is born religious. ***
*** Religion is an acquired disease. ***
======
== Religion is a tool that is used =
== by the few to fuck the many.=
>
ahahaha...HAHAHAHA... ahahahanson


Message has been deleted

hanson

unread,
Sep 10, 2008, 2:02:38 AM9/10/08
to
-------- AHAHAHAHA... ahahahaha.... ---------
>
Thomas Elifritz "kT" <cos...@lifeform.org>
wrote in message news:dnHxk.138$3_2...@newsfe02.iad...
>
Last time I checked the plumbing, I was mammalia animalia.
Do you even have any actual plumbing?
>
hanson wrote:
Oh my gawd!... you have interests in my plumbing?
... ahahaha... Stay away from me, Thomas, I do not
subscribe to that particular orientation... ahaha...
>
Thomas Elifritz "kT"
You sound like a script.
>
hanson wrote"
ahahahaha... You fantasies are certainly a property
of your own domain. But I just can't see how that
script below caused a thought train like yours above:
>
> -------- previuos post -----------------
== by the few to fuck the many.==
>
ahahaha...HAHAHAHA... ahahahanson


Message has been deleted

BradGuth

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Sep 10, 2008, 2:35:43 AM9/10/08
to

For a Zionist/Nazi, you're certainly one of the really smart ones.

~ BG

Eric Chomko

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Sep 10, 2008, 1:07:59 PM9/10/08
to

I'm sure you're the hit at the asylum as well.

hanson

unread,
Sep 10, 2008, 1:10:13 PM9/10/08
to
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.space.policy/msg/28d55f8db3ffb6d2?hl=en
>
>
awe... awe... did you crank yourself now? ... awe
>
But relax Thomas, that is what life forms do..
Nature arranged is that way.... ahahahaha....
Thanks for the laughs... ahahaha... ahahanson


BradGuth

unread,
Sep 10, 2008, 3:06:36 PM9/10/08
to

At least my form of educational entertainment isn't based upon those
Zionist/Nazi lies, deceptions and evidence exclusions in order to suit
your mainstream status quo.

~ Brad Guth Brad_Guth Brad.Guth BradGuth BG

hanson

unread,
Sep 10, 2008, 3:13:50 PM9/10/08
to

"Eric Chomko" <pne.c...@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>
Thomas Elifritz aka kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote:
In America, one has complete freedom ... to be an idiot.
>
BradGuth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:
Make that a village idiot, because it takes a village of such
idiots in order to produce yet another of their own kind.
>
Eric Chomko <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:
And you would know that!
>
BradGuth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:
For a Zionist/Nazi, you're certainly one of the really smart ones.
>
Chomko wrote:
I'm sure you're the hit at the asylum as well.
>
hanson wrote:
... ahahahaha.. It's not the "asylum". It's the "asylume",
wherefrom all you guys intellectually so luminescent
conversation comes from.... Thanks for the laughs...
... ahahahaha... ahahahanson

BradGuth

unread,
Sep 10, 2008, 3:24:40 PM9/10/08
to
On Sep 9, 11:10 pm, kT <cos...@lifeform.org> wrote:

> hanson wrote:
> > Last time I checked the plumbing, I was mammalia animalia.
> > Do you even have any actual plumbing?
> > I do not subscribe to that particular orientation... ahaha...
>
> So you shit out your mouth and excrete through your nostrils.
>
> Nature must have a reason for it. Maybe it's the uncontrollable laugh.

The human species is chuck full of genetic faults, as well as having
lost more than 90% of them really good or nifty DNA codes withing just
the past few hundred thousand years (aka reverse evolution).

~ BG

BradGuth

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Sep 10, 2008, 3:30:38 PM9/10/08
to
On Sep 9, 7:52 am, Eric Chomko <pne.cho...@comcast.net> wrote:

Hitler had a highly informed and intellectually smart kind of Zionist/
Nazi audience, that's still very much alive and kicking within our
DARPA and of their multiple government cabal/cartel and corporate
realms (including their private Federal Reserve).

kT

unread,
Sep 10, 2008, 6:17:08 PM9/10/08
to

I prefer to think of it as a 10 m/s^2 ditch myself.

Then there is another couple more thousands of km/s on top of that :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v

Your a mammal, with a bunch of nuts.

hanson

unread,
Sep 11, 2008, 12:45:00 AM9/11/08
to
"BradGuth" <brad...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c5fa07c7-d568-41a1...@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

>
Thomas Elifritz "kT" <cos...@lifeform.org>
wrote in message news:dnHxk.138$3_2...@newsfe02.iad...
Last time I checked the plumbing, I was mammalia
animalia. Do you even have any actual plumbing?
>
hanson wrote:
Oh my gawd!... you have interests in my plumbing?
... ahahaha... Stay away from me, Thomas, I do not

subscribe to that particular orientation... ahaha...
>>
kT <cos...@lifeform.org> cranked himself & wrote:
So you shit out your mouth and excrete through your
nostrils. Nature must have a reason for it.
Maybe it's the uncontrollable laugh.
>
"BradGuth" <brad...@gmail.com> wrote

The human species is chuck full of genetic faults, as
well as having lost more than 90% of them really good
or nifty DNA codes withing just the past few hundred
thousand years (aka reverse evolution).
>
hanson wrote:
ahahaha.. if any of your statement is true then it is manifest
in your inability to attribute properly.... (now corrected)
>
But your sweeping statement is characteristic of folks
who are convinced to know it all and who sincerely do
believe to be the Chosen ones who determine and
control the state of what a human being should be... [1]
>
Brad, there are no genetic faults nor are there any losses
of DNA, except in the mind of those [1] who issue such
emotionally heuristic, arbitrary and artificial chosen
"standards", which are nothing more then their own
tormented beliefs,... ahahaha.. like your ZioNazi/DARPA
cabal, of which you apparently either have fallen victim to
or have become a dues-paying member of.....
>
Thanks for the laughs, Bradavir Gutherovski... ahaha..
AHAHAHAHA... hahahahahanson


BradGuth

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Sep 11, 2008, 8:07:51 AM9/11/08