[LSJ] Form of Mist, Forced Awakening
a...@student.chalmers.se
Today we played a lot with the card Form of Mist (we call it "_the_
card"). However, after an unfortunate turn of events we discovered
that it kinda can't be played. Ever.
WHAT?
The ruling on white-wolf.com says:
# The superior form cannot be used to add stealth unless the acting
vampire needs the stealth. [RTR 19970630]
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/59af6ed99b9fa8b7
And a newsgroup ruling made by you seems to state that the blocking
minion is no longer attempting to block after the combat ends.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/455474c716253eb4?hl=en
That would make it illegal to burn the blood and continue the action
at +1 stealth, since there is no blocking minion and thus no need for
the additional stealth.
Once that case is solved you may also help us with this situation:
1) Minion A hunts.
2) Minion B plays Forced Awakening and attempts to block with 1
intercept from WMRH Talk Radio.
3) No more stealth is added and the block attempt is successful.
4) During combat, Minion A plays Form of Mist at superior and burns
one blood to continue the action (this relies on you solving the first
case and making it possible).
5) Minion B attempts to block again and plays Cat's Guidance for 1
more intercept.
6) Minion A gets 1 additional stealth from The Labyrinth.
7) Minion B declines to block and the action resolves.
Does Minion B and xer controller burn 1 blood and 1 pool respectively
for not successfully blocking the acting minion?
Would it make any difference if Minion B had not made the second
attempt to block?
/Bergsjön Academy
Form of Mist
Type: Combat
[pro] Strike: dodge.
[PRO] Strike: combat ends. If this vampire is acting, he or she may
burn 1 blood after combat ends to continue the action at +1 stealth as
if unblocked (this action can still be blocked). A vampire may play
only one Form of Mist at superior each action.
WMRH Talk Radio
Type: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location.
Tap to give any minion +1 intercept for the current action. If that
minion doesn't successfully block the action, burn 1 pool after the
action resolves.
Forced Awakening
Type: Reaction
Only usable by a tapped vampire.
This reacting vampire can attempt to block and play reaction cards as
though untapped. If he or she does not successfully block this action,
he or she burns an additional blood.
The Lasombra
>Good morning Scott.
Good evening, Alex. (Not Scott, I just play one on the internets...)
>Today we played a lot with the card Form of Mist (we call it "_the_
>card"). However, after an unfortunate turn of events we discovered
>that it kinda can't be played. Ever.
>WHAT?
Not so.
>The ruling on white-wolf.com says:
># The superior form cannot be used to add stealth unless the acting
>vampire needs the stealth. [RTR 19970630]
>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/59af6ed99b9fa8b7
Correct.
Which only means that you cannot continue the action, if the action
has already resolved successfully. You cannot use it to restart
combat on a successful Bum's Rush, for example.
Any time you were being blocked prior to the combat, you need the
stealth and can play the card and pay the blood.
>And a newsgroup ruling made by you seems to state that the blocking
>minion is no longer attempting to block after the combat ends.
>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/455474c716253eb4?hl=en
Which doesn't matter, as the stealth and action continuance are gained
during the combat, when there was a blocker.
>That would make it illegal to burn the blood and continue the action
>at +1 stealth, since there is no blocking minion and thus no need for
>the additional stealth.
Nope.
See above.
>Once that case is solved you may also help us with this situation:
>1) Minion A hunts.
>2) Minion B plays Forced Awakening and attempts to block with 1
>intercept from WMRH Talk Radio.
>3) No more stealth is added and the block attempt is successful.
>4) During combat, Minion A plays Form of Mist at superior and burns
>one blood to continue the action (this relies on you solving the first
>case and making it possible).
>5) Minion B attempts to block again and plays Cat's Guidance for 1
>more intercept.
>6) Minion A gets 1 additional stealth from The Labyrinth.
>7) Minion B declines to block and the action resolves.
>Does Minion B and xer controller burn 1 blood and 1 pool respectively
>for not successfully blocking the acting minion?
No.
The minion did successfully block, thus, the first combat. The
requirements for avoiding the penalties on both WMRH and Forced
Awakending have been satisfied.
>Would it make any difference if Minion B had not made the second
>attempt to block?
No.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
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Now also featuring individual card sales and sales
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a...@student.chalmers.se
> On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 15:00:59 -0700 (PDT), Alex wrote:
> >Good morning Scott.
>
> Good evening, Alex. (Not Scott, I just play one on the internets...)
>
> >Today we played a lot with the card Form of Mist (we call it "_the_
> >card"). However, after an unfortunate turn of events we discovered
> >that it kinda can't be played. Ever.
> >WHAT?
>
> Not so.
>
> >The ruling on white-wolf.com says:
> ># The superior form cannot be used to add stealth unless the acting
> >vampire needs the stealth. [RTR 19970630]
>
> Correct.
> Which only means that you cannot continue the action, if the action
> has already resolved successfully. You cannot use it to restart
> combat on a successful Bum's Rush, for example.
>
> Any time you were being blocked prior to the combat, you need the
> stealth and can play the card and pay the blood.
>
> >And a newsgroup ruling made by you seems to state that the blocking
> >minion is no longer attempting to block after the combat ends.
Thanks Jeff :)
//Alex
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> >Good morning Scott.
>
> Good evening, Alex. (Not Scott, I just play one on the internets...)
>
> >Today we played a lot with the card Form of Mist (we call it "_the_
> >card"). However, after an unfortunate turn of events we discovered
> >that it kinda can't be played. Ever.
> >WHAT?
>
> Not so.
>
> >The ruling on white-wolf.com says:
> ># The superior form cannot be used to add stealth unless the acting
> >vampire needs the stealth. [RTR 19970630]
>
> Correct.
> Which only means that you cannot continue the action, if the action
> has already resolved successfully. You cannot use it to restart
> combat on a successful Bum's Rush, for example.
>
> Any time you were being blocked prior to the combat, you need the
> stealth and can play the card and pay the blood.
>
> >And a newsgroup ruling made by you seems to state that the blocking
> >minion is no longer attempting to block after the combat ends.
>
> Which doesn't matter, as the stealth and action continuance are gained
> during the combat, when there was a blocker.
>
> >That would make it illegal to burn the blood and continue the action
> >at +1 stealth, since there is no blocking minion and thus no need for
> >the additional stealth.
>
> Nope.
> See above.
Thanks for the informative answer.
Somehow I still find this a bit weird though. I mean, there is no
blocker/block attempt being made but you're still allowed to add
stealth because someone did attempt to block you earlier.
Not sure if there's something I'm missing here, but it feels a bit
like playing a stealth card after a normal combat (not exactly, but a
bit like it).
Might just be me that thinks it would've been easier to simply allow
FoM to be played without the stealth being needed (by adding a clause
as on 2nd Tradition, for example).
>
> >Once that case is solved you may also help us with this situation:
> >1) Minion A hunts.
> >2) Minion B plays Forced Awakening and attempts to block with 1
> >intercept from WMRH Talk Radio.
> >3) No more stealth is added and the block attempt is successful.
> >4) During combat, Minion A plays Form of Mist at superior and burns
> >one blood to continue the action (this relies on you solving the first
> >case and making it possible).
> >5) Minion B attempts to block again and plays Cat's Guidance for 1
> >more intercept.
> >6) Minion A gets 1 additional stealth from The Labyrinth.
> >7) Minion B declines to block and the action resolves.
> >Does Minion B and xer controller burn 1 blood and 1 pool respectively
> >for not successfully blocking the acting minion?
>
> No.
> The minion did successfully block, thus, the first combat. The
> requirements for avoiding the penalties on both WMRH and Forced
> Awakending have been satisfied.
>
> >Would it make any difference if Minion B had not made the second
> >attempt to block?
>
> No.
How about if Minion B would've declined/failed to block two times
instead? (With the new and amazing Minion C blocking and getting
foiled by FoM inbetween).
LSJ
> On Sep 8, 12:41 am, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 15:00:59 -0700 (PDT), Alex wrote:
>>> Today we played a lot with the card Form of Mist (we call it "_the_
>>> card"). However, after an unfortunate turn of events we discovered
>>> that it kinda can't be played. Ever.
>>> WHAT?
>> Not so.
>>
>>> The ruling on white-wolf.com says:
>>> # The superior form cannot be used to add stealth unless the acting
>>> vampire needs the stealth. [RTR 19970630]
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/59af...
>> Correct.
>> Which only means that you cannot continue the action, if the action
>> has already resolved successfully. You cannot use it to restart
>> combat on a successful Bum's Rush, for example.
>>
>> Any time you were being blocked prior to the combat, you need the
>> stealth and can play the card and pay the blood.
>>
>>> And a newsgroup ruling made by you seems to state that the blocking
>>> minion is no longer attempting to block after the combat ends.
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/4554...
That ruling states that once you move back into the continuance, then that
previous block is not longer being prosecuted.
At the time of effecting continuance, however, there is clearly a blocking minion.
See Hidden Lurker et al.
>> Which doesn't matter, as the stealth and action continuance are gained
>> during the combat, when there was a blocker.
>>
>>> That would make it illegal to burn the blood and continue the action
>>> at +1 stealth, since there is no blocking minion and thus no need for
>>> the additional stealth.
>> Nope.
>> See above.
>
> Thanks for the informative answer.
> Somehow I still find this a bit weird though. I mean, there is no
> blocker/block attempt being made but you're still allowed to add
> stealth because someone did attempt to block you earlier.
There is a blocker.
See Hidden Lurker.
>>> Once that case is solved you may also help us with this situation:
>>> 1) Minion A hunts.
>>> 2) Minion B plays Forced Awakening and attempts to block with 1
>>> intercept from WMRH Talk Radio.
>>> 3) No more stealth is added and the block attempt is successful.
>>> 4) During combat, Minion A plays Form of Mist at superior and burns
>>> one blood to continue the action (this relies on you solving the first
>>> case and making it possible).
>>> 5) Minion B attempts to block again and plays Cat's Guidance for 1
>>> more intercept.
>>> 6) Minion A gets 1 additional stealth from The Labyrinth.
>>> 7) Minion B declines to block and the action resolves.
>>> Does Minion B and xer controller burn 1 blood and 1 pool respectively
>>> for not successfully blocking the acting minion?
>> No.
>> The minion did successfully block, thus, the first combat. The
>> requirements for avoiding the penalties on both WMRH and Forced
>> Awakending have been satisfied.
>>
>>> Would it make any difference if Minion B had not made the second
>>> attempt to block?
>> No.
>
> How about if Minion B would've declined/failed to block two times
> instead? (With the new and amazing Minion C blocking and getting
> foiled by FoM inbetween).
WMRH's pool loss occurs after the action resolves. It happens once, therefore.
Forced Awakening's blood loss occurs when the resolution begins. So B would burn
1 blood for failing to block the first time. That effect is only applied once,
no matter how many attempts B makes.
B: FA, block.
A: stealth.
C: block with intercept.
A: block denial.
B: block with intercept.
A: More stealth.
B still only burns one blood, even though two of B's attempts failed.
agzocgud
A: Chandler hunts
B: Blocks with magaji with no sercets
A: Chandler plays FoM at superior
(no more blocks)
No secrets stays in play due to a sucessful block even if the action
was sucessfull. "As if unblocked" doesn´t mean the block did not
occur. Correct?
No Secrets From the Magaji
Type: Action
Requires: magaji
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready magaji.
Put this card on this magaji and untap him or her. The magaji with
this card gets +1 intercept when attempting to block vampires. If this
magaji is tapped, he or she may attempt to block a vampire as if
untapped. Burn this card if this magaji attempts to block a vampire
but is not successful. A vampire may have only one No Secrets From the
Magaji.
LSJ
> So No Secrets is also safe from FoM?
> A: Chandler hunts
> B: Blocks with magaji with no sercets
> A: Chandler plays FoM at superior
> (no more blocks)
>
> No secrets stays in play due to a sucessful block even if the action
> was sucessfull. "As if unblocked" doesn´t mean the block did not
> occur. Correct?
Correct. The magaji attempted to block and was successful (otherwise, the combat
would not have occured and FoM could not have been played).
Chris Berger
> agzocgud wrote:
> > So No Secrets is also safe from FoM?
> > A: Chandler hunts
> > B: Blocks with magaji with no sercets
> > A: Chandler plays FoM at superior
> > (no more blocks)
>
> > No secrets stays in play due to a sucessful block even if the action
> > was sucessfull. "As if unblocked" doesn´t mean the block did not
> > occur. Correct?
>
> Correct. The magaji attempted to block and was successful (otherwise, the combat
> would not have occured and FoM could not have been played).
>
stealth (assuming that the Magaji wouldn't try to block a second time
unless he has at least 2 intercept), then No Secrets would be burned,
right? Because No Secrets is burned if the Magaji attempts to block
and is unsuccessful, rather than Forced Awakening's "failed to block"
clause. Any unsuccessful block will burn No Secrets.
LSJ
> But if the Magaji attempts to block again and Chandler finds some more
> stealth (assuming that the Magaji wouldn't try to block a second time
> unless he has at least 2 intercept), then No Secrets would be burned,
> right? Because No Secrets is burned if the Magaji attempts to block
> and is unsuccessful, rather than Forced Awakening's "failed to block"
> clause. Any unsuccessful block will burn No Secrets.
Correct.
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sep 8, 12:41 am, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 15:00:59 -0700 (PDT), Alex wrote:
>
> >>> And a newsgroup ruling made by you seems to state that the blocking
> >>> minion is no longer attempting to block after the combat ends.
> >>>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/4554...
>
> That ruling states that once you move back into the continuance, then that
> previous block is not longer being prosecuted.
>
> At the time of effecting continuance, however, there is clearly a blocking minion.
> See Hidden Lurker et al.
Ok. I'll just have to force my head to accept it I guess.
One more question before I put this to rest though:
If the blocking minion somehow loses intercept during the combat
(Raven Spies dying, Sportbikes getting smashed etc.), does this change
anything?
Let's say that the blocker had a Sport Bike and blocked a normal hunt
action (at 1 stealth). During the combat the acting minion destroys
the Sport Bike and then plays FoM to continue. Would it be legal to do
so since the blocker had more intercept when the actual block attempt
took place?
Blooded Sand
Dude, simply put, the block has ALREADY occurred. Thus there is a
block. Thus stealth was less than or equal to intercept. Thus stealth
is needed.
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
Could be that I'm the only one not seeing this simple and it might
seem that I'm flogging a dead horse, but all I'm after here is to
understand the mechanics. I'm not attempting to make FoM unplayable or
so, just getting it clear for myself so I know how the card and
mechanics work.
The way I believed stealth/intercept worked was that unless you were
attempting to block or in the process of getting blocked you couldn't
add intercept or stealth, respectively. Since this isn't exactly the
case I want to understand how it works.
From what I've read in this thread it would seem that a vampire could
follow up Mirror Image with stealth right away as well, something I
wouldn't have ruled possible a few days ago. But I might be missing
something about that as well?
James Coupe
s.com>, sg3kmb6...@gmail.com writes:
>If the blocking minion somehow loses intercept during the combat
>(Raven Spies dying, Sportbikes getting smashed etc.), does this change
>anything?
Yes. If it means there isn't a blocking minion with intercept greater
than or equal to the acting minion's stealth, the acting minion cannot
play stealth.
Form of Mist:
Is there a blocking minion? Check. It's the one you're in combat with.
What's my stealth? X
What's his intercept? Y
Is X > Y? If yes, you can't use Form of Mist for the stealth, because
you have more stealth than the blocking minion has intercept.
>Let's say that the blocker had a Sport Bike and blocked a normal hunt
>action (at 1 stealth).
1 stealth, 1 intercept.
>During the combat the acting minion destroys
>the Sport Bike
1 stealth, 0 intercept.
>and then plays FoM to
... end combat, with the option to ...
>continue. Would it be legal to do
>so since the blocker had more intercept when the actual block attempt
>took place?
You can't then use the "continue action" effect, because it provides
stealth. You already have more stealth than the blocking minion has
intercept.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
LSJ
> In message <d21f686d-f4d5-4814...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroup
> s.com>, sg3kmb6...@gmail.com writes:
>> If the blocking minion somehow loses intercept during the combat
>> (Raven Spies dying, Sportbikes getting smashed etc.), does this change
>> anything?
>
> Yes. If it means there isn't a blocking minion with intercept greater
> than or equal to the acting minion's stealth, the acting minion cannot
> play stealth.
Correct.
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> In message <d21f686d-f4d5-4814-9576-0244f8835...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroup
>
> s.com>, sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com writes:
> >If the blocking minion somehow loses intercept during the combat
> >(Raven Spies dying, Sportbikes getting smashed etc.), does this change
> >anything?
>
> Yes. If it means there isn't a blocking minion with intercept greater
> than or equal to the acting minion's stealth, the acting minion cannot
> play stealth.
>
> Form of Mist:
> Is there a blocking minion? Check. It's the one you're in combat with.
I might be reading this wrong, but is that check done during combat or
did you just use those words to help point out which minion is the
blocking one?
As you pointed out, FoM does end combat first and after that it gives
the option to continue the action with +1 stealth. This would matter
in some cases as Stanislava, Frenzy, Drawing Out the Beast and such,
which cancels certain effects during combat (but shouldn't effect the
short window after combat when the action is continued via FoM).
I searched the newsgroup before making the first post here, but failed
to find the appropriate thread where this issue has been somewhat
discussed and some of my questions could've been answered so I'm sorry
about that.
The in combat/out of combat issue is brought up, but not really
answered in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/b7e4f149fe5e8668/425cfb74be3281bd
Since the last reply in that post only states that "If the retainer/
equipment is used for non-combat interaction, it cannot be used if it
is burned" and doesn't mention retainer/equipment that's cancelled
during combat I'm not sure how to apply it to that case.
I'd think that in-combat cancelling shouldn't matter for non-combat
interaction, but in another thread it's said that it does.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/d15af01e8bb729a1/de77d2833c883c4b
James Coupe
.com>, sg3kmb6...@gmail.com writes:
>On Sep 11, 11:29 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>> Form of Mist:
>> Is there a blocking minion? Check. It's the one you're in combat with.
>
>I might be reading this wrong, but is that check done during combat or
>did you just use those words to help point out which minion is the
>blocking one?
It's actually more subtle - I was sloppy with my description, sorry.
Rules Glossary:
Blocking Minion: The minion currently attempting to block an
action, or the minion who has successfully blocked the current
action.
So, Stanislava is acting, Fabrizia Contreraz blocks. 0 stealth, 0
intercept.
Stanislava plays Form of Mist (superior). Fabrizia Contreraz is "the
minion who has successfully blocked the current action", so you check
Fabrizia's intercept because Fabrizia is the blocking minion.
0 and 0, so stealth is usable, so you can activate the continue
action+stealth effect.
Done, and done.
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> In message <4c7fa3d8-9019-41d7-b092-ffed1389d...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups
>
> .com>, sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com writes:
> >On Sep 11, 11:29 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> >> Form of Mist:
> >> Is there a blocking minion? Check. It's the one you're in combat with.
>
> >I might be reading this wrong, but is that check done during combat or
> >did you just use those words to help point out which minion is the
> >blocking one?
>
> It's actually more subtle - I was sloppy with my description, sorry.
>
> Rules Glossary:
>
> Blocking Minion: The minion currently attempting to block an
> action, or the minion who has successfully blocked the current
> action.
>
> So, Stanislava is acting, Fabrizia Contreraz blocks. 0 stealth, 0
> intercept.
>
> Stanislava plays Form of Mist (superior). Fabrizia Contreraz is "the
> minion who has successfully blocked the current action", so you check
> Fabrizia's intercept because Fabrizia is the blocking minion.
>
> 0 and 0, so stealth is usable, so you can activate the continue
> action+stealth effect.
>
> Done, and done.
Yeah, I'm with you on that one now :)
But what about:
Stanislava is hunting , Stick with a Raven Spy blocks. 1 stealth, 1
intercept.
Stanislava plays Form of Mist (superior). Stick is "the minion who
has successfully blocked the current action", so you check Stick's
intercept because Stick is the blocking minion.
Here's where it gets interesting.
In combat, Stanislava has 1 stealth but Stick has 0 intercept (due to
Stanislava's innate effect on retainers).
Outside combat, Stanislava has 1 stealth and stick has 1 intercept
(due to Stanislava's innate effect on retainers only working in
combat).
So where do I check for stealth/intercept?
Since a broken Sport Bike won't count I obviously don't check at the
moment when the block was successful.
The way I'd guess would be to do the check outside of combat (and
Stanislava's effect thus not doing anything about the Raven Spy on
Stick). Since superior Form of Mist has two steps, inbetween which
stuff like Psyche!, Hidden Lurker etc. can happen, I think this would
make most sense.
Step 1 of FoM is the Strike: Combat Ends.
Step 2 of FoM is the option to continue the action as if unblocked
(assuming certain conditions are met).
So ending combat would end Stanislava's effect on the Raven Spy
employed by Stick.
However, the third post in one of the threads I linked earlier says
that's not the case (and LSJ's reply doesn't mention that part so I'd
assume it was correct).
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/d15af01e8bb729a1/de77d2833c883c4b
James Coupe
s.com>, sg3kmb6...@gmail.com writes:
>Yeah, I'm with you on that one now :)
>But what about:
>
>Stanislava is hunting , Stick with a Raven Spy blocks. 1 stealth, 1
>intercept.
>
>Stanislava plays Form of Mist (superior). Stick is "the minion who
>has successfully blocked the current action", so you check Stick's
>intercept because Stick is the blocking minion.
>
>Here's where it gets interesting.
>In combat, Stanislava has 1 stealth but Stick has 0 intercept (due to
>Stanislava's innate effect on retainers).
>Outside combat, Stanislava has 1 stealth and stick has 1 intercept
>(due to Stanislava's innate effect on retainers only working in
>combat).
>
>So where do I check for stealth/intercept?
When you'd use the "continue action+stealth" effect, which is outside
combat.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/cfc52a75f43487a6
>However, the third post in one of the threads I linked earlier says
>that's not the case (and LSJ's reply doesn't mention that part so I'd
>assume it was correct).
>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm
>/thread/d15af01e8bb729a1/de77d2833c883c4b
Looks like an oversight on LSJ's part - or possibly the "choose outside
combat" wasn't fixed at that point.
That link is from 2001, whereas the ruling on timing appears to have
first been set in [LSJ 20031123] (from the White Wolf rulings page).
Note that Form of Mist has changed its wording several times over the
years, so older rulings may not be 100% relevant.
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> In message <180c16e9-3b4a-4b63-82d1-6fbbb97e5...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroup
>
>
> >So where do I check for stealth/intercept?
>
> When you'd use the "continue action+stealth" effect, which is outside
> combat.
>
I really gotta start googling around more during threads and not just
before creating them >.>
Thanks.
> >However, the third post in one of the threads I linked earlier says
> >that's not the case (and LSJ's reply doesn't mention that part so I'd
> >assume it was correct).
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm
> >/thread/d15af01e8bb729a1/de77d2833c883c4b
>
> Looks like an oversight on LSJ's part - or possibly the "choose outside
> combat" wasn't fixed at that point.
>
> That link is from 2001, whereas the ruling on timing appears to have
> first been set in [LSJ 20031123] (from the White Wolf rulings page).
> Note that Form of Mist has changed its wording several times over the
> years, so older rulings may not be 100% relevant.
True. Finding out whether a ruling is still in effect is often harder
than finding the ruling itself.
Something I did try to find though, is about Mirror Image and stealth.
Let's say that Durga Syn hunts with 1 stealth. Boy Toy blocks with 1
intercept from a Sport Bike. During combat, Durga Syn plays superior
Mirror Image and continues the action. Would it be legal for Durga Syn
to play Lost In Crowds right away here?
My gut feeling says no, but I can't really see the difference between
that and the stealth gained from Form of Mist.
The Lasombra
>Something I did try to find though, is about Mirror Image and stealth.
>Let's say that Durga Syn hunts with 1 stealth. Boy Toy blocks with 1
>intercept from a Sport Bike. During combat, Durga Syn plays superior
>Mirror Image and continues the action. Would it be legal for Durga Syn
>to play Lost In Crowds right away here?
>My gut feeling says no, but I can't really see the difference between
>that and the stealth gained from Form of Mist.
Not unless Boy Toy tries to block.
The combat ends the first block attempt. The blocker must attempt to
block again (and will succeed in this case unless you add stealth).
Please cut the portions of the posts to which you are not responding.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
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sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:10:33 -0700 (PDT), sg3kmb613sdf5gr wrote:
> >Something I did try to find though, is about Mirror Image and stealth.
> >Let's say that Durga Syn hunts with 1 stealth. Boy Toy blocks with 1
> >intercept from a Sport Bike. During combat, Durga Syn plays superior
> >Mirror Image and continues the action. Would it be legal for Durga Syn
> >to play Lost In Crowds right away here?
> >My gut feeling says no, but I can't really see the difference between
> >that and the stealth gained from Form of Mist.
>
> Not unless Boy Toy tries to block.
>
> The combat ends the first block attempt. The blocker must attempt to
> block again (and will succeed in this case unless you add stealth).
But if Durga had 2 protean masters and wanted to play Form of Mist she
would have been deemed to need the stealth and thus be able to add
more?
How come a block attempt is needed in the case of Mirror Image and not
when you want to play Form of Mist?
Is there some difference in wording that I fail to see?
Form of Mist
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Protean
[pro] Strike: dodge.
[PRO] Strike: combat ends. If this vampire is acting, he or she may
burn 1 blood after combat ends to continue the action at +1 stealth as
if unblocked (this action can still be blocked). A vampire may play
only one Form of Mist at superior each action.
Mirror Image
Cardtype: Action Modifier/Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Chimerstry
[chi] [ACTION MODIFIER] +1 stealth.
[CHI] [COMBAT] Strike: combat ends. If this vampire was blocked while
performing an action other than bleeding, the action continues as if
unblocked.
> Please cut the portions of the posts to which you are not responding.
I'm trying to :s
The Lasombra
>> Please cut the portions of the posts to which you are not responding.
>I'm trying to :s
With Mirror Image, you are already continuing the action, and the
action is succeeding.
You don't need more stealth until another blocker is declared.
With Form of Mist, you gain stealth as the same effect that allows you
to continue the action. They are not separate in any way.
You cannot cycle the Lost in Crowds until there is a new block
attempt.
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> With Mirror Image, you are already continuing the action, and the
> action is succeeding.
It does continue the action in the same timing window as Form of Mist
though?
> You don't need more stealth until another blocker is declared.
Yet if I played Form of Mist I would need more stealth?
> With Form of Mist, you gain stealth as the same effect that allows you
> to continue the action. They are not separate in any way.
But you still have to need the stealth in order to use the effect,
according to the ruling here: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/59af6ed99b9fa8b7
I don't see how it matters whether the continuation and stealth is
gained at the same point or just following each other with two
separate effects. Is there any reason for this or is it just the way
it is? Because it seems weird to me :s
The total effect of FoM would be to
1) End combat via the strike.
2) Check whether stealth/intercept is needed.
3) Use the option to continue the action at +1 stealth, or just leave
it and end the action.
And Mirror Image would be
1) End combat via the strike.
2) Check whether stealth/intercept is needed.
3) Continue the action.
4) The opportunity to play cards or effects is at the acting
methusaleh, and xe would here be able to add stealth.
My point would be that at point 3 the acting minion either needs
stealth or xe doesn't. If stealth is needed it should be possible to
add stealth via any means, and if stealth isn't needed it shouldn't be
possible to add stealth unless card text specifically allowed it.
It could, of course, be argued that you don't need the stealth until
you've continued the action and once you've continued the action the
previous blocker/combatant is no longer a blocking minion. This would
kinda sound like the old argument with Second Tradition about the
intercept not being needed until you're actually attempting to block
and that you're not attempting to block until you've untapped with
Second Tradition and that this would create some weird logic loop or
so :s
LSJ
> On Sep 12, 3:46 am, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> With Mirror Image, you are already continuing the action, and the
>> action is succeeding.
>
> It does continue the action in the same timing window as Form of Mist
> though?
>
>> You don't need more stealth until another blocker is declared.
>
> Yet if I played Form of Mist I would need more stealth?
>
>> With Form of Mist, you gain stealth as the same effect that allows you
>> to continue the action. They are not separate in any way.
>
> But you still have to need the stealth in order to use the effect,
> according to the ruling here: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/59af6ed99b9fa8b7
> I don't see how it matters whether the continuation and stealth is
> gained at the same point or just following each other with two
> separate effects. Is there any reason for this or is it just the way
> it is?
The reason: because you can't interrupt the effect of either Mirror Image or
Form of Mist to play, say, Lost in Crowds. Lost in Crowds is not playable in the
middle of resolving the effect of either Mirror Image or Form of Mist.
By the time Lost in Crowds is playable, the minion who had previously blocked
the action and who had been the opposing minion in the combat in which FoM/MI
was played is no longer the blocking minion -- he's just a bystander.
Blooded Sand
> sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sep 12, 3:46 am, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> With Mirror Image, you are already continuing the action, and the
> >> action is succeeding.
>
> > It does continue the action in the same timing window as Form of Mist
> > though?
>
> >> You don't need more stealth until another blocker is declared.
>
> > Yet if I played Form of Mist I would need more stealth?
>
> >> With Form of Mist, you gain stealth as the same effect that allows you
> >> to continue the action. They are not separate in any way.
>
> > But you still have to need the stealth in order to use the effect,
> > I don't see how it matters whether the continuation and stealth is
> > gained at the same point or just following each other with two
> > separate effects. Is there any reason for this or is it just the way
> > it is?
>
> The reason: because you can't interrupt the effect of either Mirror Image or
> Form of Mist to play, say, Lost in Crowds. Lost in Crowds is not playable in the
> middle of resolving the effect of either Mirror Image or Form of Mist.
>
> By the time Lost in Crowds is playable, the minion who had previously blocked
> the action and who had been the opposing minion in the combat in which FoM/MI
> was played is no longer the blocking minion -- he's just a bystander.
To paraphrase, FoM is a combat card, played in combat, even though it
has an effect outside combat. LiC is an action modifier, and thus
cannot be played in combat. So the window for playing it only opens on
a block attempt.
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
The LiC i talked about wouldn't be played in combat though, since the
combat was ended by FoM. And certain action modifiers can be played
between the ending of combat and the continuation of the action
(Hidden Lurker is an example) so I didn't see it as impossible that
LiC would be playable there as well (assuming that the opposing
combatant was still considered to be a blocking minion and all that).
It is true that the window for playing LiC only opens up when there is
a blocking minion, but there is one at the point where I asked about
playing LiC (after combat ended but before the continuation of the
action).
It got me a bit confused, is all.
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> The reason: because you can't interrupt the effect of either Mirror Image or
> Form of Mist to play, say, Lost in Crowds. Lost in Crowds is not playable in the
> middle of resolving the effect of either Mirror Image or Form of Mist.
I never ment to interrupt the effect, but rather to add stealth right
away after the effect had happened.
> By the time Lost in Crowds is playable, the minion who had previously blocked
> the action and who had been the opposing minion in the combat in which FoM/MI
> was played is no longer the blocking minion -- he's just a bystander.
And this happens instantly after the "action continue"-effect happens?
Just checking so I get it right :s
LSJ
> On Sep 12, 2:06 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com wrote:
>> The reason: because you can't interrupt the effect of either Mirror Image or
>> Form of Mist to play, say, Lost in Crowds. Lost in Crowds is not playable in the
>> middle of resolving the effect of either Mirror Image or Form of Mist.
>
> I never ment to interrupt the effect, but rather to add stealth right
> away after the effect had happened.
Once the action is continued (to open the window for you to play Lost in
Crowds), there is no blocking minion.
For there to still be a blocking minion, you'd have to interrupt the Form of
Mist effect (like Fast Reaction would).
>> By the time Lost in Crowds is playable, the minion who had previously blocked
>> the action and who had been the opposing minion in the combat in which FoM/MI
>> was played is no longer the blocking minion -- he's just a bystander.
>
> And this happens instantly after the "action continue"-effect happens?
> Just checking so I get it right :s
Yes.
James Coupe
com>, sg3kmb6...@gmail.com writes:
>On Sep 12, 2:06 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com wrote:
>> The reason: because you can't interrupt the effect of either Mirror Image or
>> Form of Mist to play, say, Lost in Crowds. Lost in Crowds is not
>>playable in the
>> middle of resolving the effect of either Mirror Image or Form of Mist.
>
>I never ment to interrupt the effect, but rather to add stealth right
>away after the effect had happened.
That's rather the point, though. Form of Mist does it all at once -
continue action and stealth in one go.
Playing a separate continue action effect means that the blocking minion
has gone away - because you're continuing the action as if unblocked.
>> By the time Lost in Crowds is playable, the minion who had previously blocked
>> the action and who had been the opposing minion in the combat in which FoM/MI
>> was played is no longer the blocking minion -- he's just a bystander.
>
>And this happens instantly after the "action continue"-effect happens?
Pretty much. The action is continuing as if unblocked. You don't (yet)
have someone attempting a block, and you're ignoring the previously
successful block, so you don't have a "blocking minion" anymore.