Benezri + Kemintiri Merge Qs (LSJ)
islando...@aol.com
"The particulars of this merge are as follows. The counters and cards
on the vampire remain. The advancement and the base card are treated
as a single vampire card, even if sent to the uncontrolled region
somehow, until the vampire is burned."
"When merged, the text on the base card still applies, but the rest of
the card is ignored (capacity, Disciplines, etc.). The advancement
card applies in full. If the advancement card conflicts with the base
card (a different sect, for example), the advancement card has
precedence."
OK, so three questions:
1.) Just making sure, Lena Rowe can play Epiphany and fail to find
her advanced version, yes? I led to this in another thread but it
seems I wasn't direct enough in my follow-up question.
2.) Alfred Benezri (base) (w/obf skill card) becomes a cardinal
through Cardinal Benediction, and the card is put on him. Next turn,
he plays Epiphany, and finds an advanced copy, which is then put on
him. Does he "gain" the title Archbishop, and burn the Cardinal
Benediction? Or do the "cards on the vampire remain, " the merged
Archbishop text merely overrides his Bishop text (which is moot now
anyway), and he's still a Cardinal? I searched this group, but
chronology was hard to follow.
Now a series of related questions:
3.) Who plays cards--the players, the vampires, both? That is, when
a card refers to itself as being able to play certain cards, what
exactly does that mean? I assume it means I can play cards, since my
minions do not have any cards in their hands. If not, how do I know
which cards I am playing and which cards my vampires are playing?
(I ask because I assumed that Kemintiri merged could play Ventrue
Headquarters, but a search of this group the other day for ideas about
"Kemintiri" showed a ruling that she could not.)
4.) Are Convictions played by my Imbued, or by me?
5.) Does Kemintiri play Ventrue Headquarters, or do I?
6.) Do I ever play Deflection, or do my minions do it instead?
-- Brian
Bram Vink
> >From the rulebook:
>
> "The particulars of this merge are as follows. The counters and cards
> on the vampire remain. The advancement and the base card are treated
> as a single vampire card, even if sent to the uncontrolled region
> somehow, until the vampire is burned."
>
> "When merged, the text on the base card still applies, but the rest of
> the card is ignored (capacity, Disciplines, etc.). The advancement
> card applies in full. If the advancement card conflicts with the base
> card (a different sect, for example), the advancement card has
> precedence."
>
> OK, so three questions:
>
> 1.) Just making sure, Lena Rowe can play Epiphany and fail to find
> her advanced version, yes? I led to this in another thread but it
> seems I wasn't direct enough in my follow-up question.
This is correct.
Answered directly on #vtes (IRC) by LSJ to me.
You can play epiphany with a base vampire, search your crypt and fail
to find the advanced version regardless of wether it's possible or
present..
> 2.) Alfred Benezri (base) (w/obf skill card) becomes a cardinal
> through Cardinal Benediction, and the card is put on him. Next turn,
> he plays Epiphany, and finds an advanced copy, which is then put on
> him. Does he "gain" the title Archbishop, and burn the Cardinal
> Benediction? Or do the "cards on the vampire remain, " the merged
> Archbishop text merely overrides his Bishop text (which is moot now
> anyway), and he's still a Cardinal? I searched this group, but
> chronology was hard to follow.
He gains the title of archbishop, and thus loses the cardinal title.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/f82a7469360c42fd
> Now a series of related questions:
>
> 3.) Who plays cards--the players, the vampires, both? That is, when
> a card refers to itself as being able to play certain cards, what
> exactly does that mean? I assume it means I can play cards, since my
> minions do not have any cards in their hands. If not, how do I know
> which cards I am playing and which cards my vampires are playing?
Minion cards are considered played by a specific minion.
You specify which minion plays this card.
> (I ask because I assumed that Kemintiri merged could play Ventrue
> Headquarters, but a search of this group the other day for ideas about
> "Kemintiri" showed a ruling that she could not.)
>
> 4.) Are Convictions played by my Imbued, or by me?
>From the rule cards "You may play" - that means you, the methuselah,
plays them. They are also, not minion cards, and subsequently aren't
played by a minion.
> 5.) Does Kemintiri play Ventrue Headquarters, or do I?
Master cards are played by the methuselah, since they are not minion
cards.
> 6.) Do I ever play Deflection, or do my minions do it instead?
It's a minion card, so your minions play it.
If it can be DI'd (ie. is a minion card) it's played by a minion.
> -- Brian
Cheers,
Bram
James Coupe
islando...@aol.com writes:
>1.) Just making sure, Lena Rowe can play Epiphany and fail to find
>her advanced version, yes? I led to this in another thread but it
>seems I wasn't direct enough in my follow-up question.
Yes. The vampire doesn't have to have an advanced version, and you can
fail to find a card on any "search" (unless card text indicated
otherwise).
>2.) Alfred Benezri (base) (w/obf skill card) becomes a cardinal
>through Cardinal Benediction, and the card is put on him. Next turn,
>he plays Epiphany, and finds an advanced copy, which is then put on
>him. Does he "gain" the title Archbishop, and burn the Cardinal
>Benediction?
Yes.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/f82a746
9360c42fd?hl=en&
Merging a vampire card with a title onto your vampire has the
effect of that vampire gaining that title (and losing any
previous title he had).
Normally, base Laz[arus] would simply lose his primogen title as
he gains advanced Laz's primogen title. But in this case, since
base Laz had gained a prince title, he'd lose the prince title
as he gained the primogen title.
>Or do the "cards on the vampire remain, "
This isn't carte-blanche. They'll burn if there's another reason to
burn them - and you burn Title cards when the vampire gets a new title.
> the merged
>Archbishop text merely overrides his Bishop text (which is moot now
>anyway), and he's still a Cardinal? I searched this group, but
>chronology was hard to follow.
He doesn't have a Bishop title to override anymore, because that has
already been yielded when he became a Cardinal.
>Now a series of related questions:
>
>3.) Who plays cards--the players, the vampires, both?
The player sometimes, both sometimes.
For example, you play The Barrens. No vampires are involved.
However, both you and Arika play Protect Thine Own - you because it's
coming from your hand, Arika because she's the vampire taking the
action.
In general: event cards are played by you, master cards are played by
you, untap cards are played by you, and minion cards are played by you
and the minion.
>That is, when
>a card refers to itself as being able to play certain cards, what
>exactly does that mean?
In most circumstances, it means it can meet the requirements for playing
cards. For example, Mata Hari can play Art Scam because she can play
cards as if she were a Toreador Antitribu. High Top can play cards that
require Celerity as if it had Celerity (and there are rules in the
rulebook for allies being pretend-vampires, for those cards).
>I assume it means I can play cards, since my
>minions do not have any cards in their hands.
It means you can play it, with that minion, typically.
If you have any other particular questions about particular card text,
shoot.
>(I ask because I assumed that Kemintiri merged could play Ventrue
>Headquarters, but a search of this group the other day for ideas about
>"Kemintiri" showed a ruling that she could not.)
Kemintiri doesn't play master cards. She may be the vampire meeting the
requirement of, say, Opium Den when she's the only Setite out, but she's
not the one playing it.
She could play, for example, Political Ally - an ally that requires
Ventrue.
>4.) Are Convictions played by my Imbued, or by me?
You.
Note that untap (Conviction) cards, unlike master and event cards, are
controlled by the controller of the minion they're on. Master and event
cards are controlled by the Methuselah who played them, in the absence
of a specific change of control. This is important for things like when
you're ousted but cards you played are elsewhere on the table (your
master and events cards burn, your minion and untap cards don't), and
who controls a card for the target of an action.
>5.) Does Kemintiri play Ventrue Headquarters, or do I?
You do. Vampires just meet the requirements for you.
>6.) Do I ever play Deflection, or do my minions do it instead?
You play it from your hand, and the vampire playing it also plays it.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Bram Vink
<snip>
> >6.) Do I ever play Deflection, or do my minions do it instead?
>
> You play it from your hand, and the vampire playing it also plays it.
I'm not so sure about this. The rulebook (1.6.1) states:
"There are three main types of library cards: master cards, minion
cards and event cards. Master cards are played by Methuselahs; minion
cards are played by the minions (vampires and allies) the Methuselahs
control; event cards are put into play during the discard phase to
represent events that affects the World of Darkness as a whole"
And respectively in 1.6.2 and 1.6.3:
"Master cards are cards you play in your role as a Methuselah."
"Minion cards are cards that your vampires and allies (collectively
referred to as "minions") play."
So whereas you obviously play the cards from your hand, It doesn't
seem this use of the word play refers to the game terminology, which
seems to imply it's strictly the minions playing the minion cards.
It's a trivial difference, though, and no cards are affected by it
either way.
Cheers,
Bram
Bram Vink
Later on, when the specific cards are handled: (6.1.7)
"A political action card is an action card that is used to call a
referendum. As indicated on the cards, these actions have a default +1
stealth and can only be played by vampires"
And then in the same bit:
"To call the referendum identified on a political action card in your
hand, play the card and tap the acting vampire."
Which seems to refer to the physical playing.
So I guess you both play this card. You (the methuselah) physically,
from your hand to the table. The minion in game terms and for the
rules.
Cheers,
Bram
James Coupe
Vink <jja....@hccnet.nl> writes:
>On 10 apr, 10:47, "Bram Vink" <jja.v...@hccnet.nl> wrote:
>> So whereas you obviously play the cards from your hand, It doesn't
>> seem this use of the word play refers to the game terminology, which
>> seems to imply it's strictly the minions playing the minion cards.
>>
>> It's a trivial difference, though, and no cards are affected by it
>> either way.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Bram
>
>Later on, when the specific cards are handled: (6.1.7)
See also 1.6.3:
By default, a minion card in play is controlled by the
controller of the minion it is on. If a minion card is just in
play and not on another controlled card, then it is, by default,
controlled by the Methuselah who played it.
1.6.1.5 (Sequencing) uses similar wording, to determine which Methuselah
plays cards (which may be minion, master, or whatever).
The principle focus of play for a minion card is clearly the minion
playing it. But it seems clear that it's played by both.
LSJ
> On 10 apr, 04:57, islandofyia...@aol.com wrote:
>> >From the rulebook:
>>
>> "The particulars of this merge are as follows. The counters and cards
>> on the vampire remain. The advancement and the base card are treated
>> as a single vampire card, even if sent to the uncontrolled region
>> somehow, until the vampire is burned."
>>
>> "When merged, the text on the base card still applies, but the rest of
>> the card is ignored (capacity, Disciplines, etc.). The advancement
>> card applies in full. If the advancement card conflicts with the base
>> card (a different sect, for example), the advancement card has
>> precedence."
>>
>> OK, so three questions:
>>
>> 1.) Just making sure, Lena Rowe can play Epiphany and fail to find
>> her advanced version, yes? I led to this in another thread but it
>> seems I wasn't direct enough in my follow-up question.
>
> This is correct.
>
> Answered directly on #vtes (IRC) by LSJ to me.
> You can play epiphany with a base vampire, search your crypt and fail
> to find the advanced version regardless of wether it's possible or
> present..
Correct.
>> 2.) Alfred Benezri (base) (w/obf skill card) becomes a cardinal
>> through Cardinal Benediction, and the card is put on him. Next turn,
>> he plays Epiphany, and finds an advanced copy, which is then put on
>> him. Does he "gain" the title Archbishop, and burn the Cardinal
>> Benediction? Or do the "cards on the vampire remain, " the merged
>> Archbishop text merely overrides his Bishop text (which is moot now
>> anyway), and he's still a Cardinal? I searched this group, but
>> chronology was hard to follow.
>
> He gains the title of archbishop, and thus loses the cardinal title.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/f82a7469360c42fd
Correct.
>> Now a series of related questions:
>>
>> 3.) Who plays cards--the players, the vampires, both? That is, when
>> a card refers to itself as being able to play certain cards, what
>> exactly does that mean? I assume it means I can play cards, since my
>> minions do not have any cards in their hands. If not, how do I know
>> which cards I am playing and which cards my vampires are playing?
>
> Minion cards are considered played by a specific minion.
> You specify which minion plays this card.
And those cards are also played by the Methuselah (they're played by both the
minion and the Methuselah).
>> (I ask because I assumed that Kemintiri merged could play Ventrue
>> Headquarters, but a search of this group the other day for ideas about
>> "Kemintiri" showed a ruling that she could not.)
Correct. Minions do not play master cards.
See also Kemintiri's official card text on-line, which includes that clarification.
>> 4.) Are Convictions played by my Imbued, or by me?
>
>>From the rule cards "You may play" - that means you, the methuselah,
> plays them. They are also, not minion cards, and subsequently aren't
> played by a minion.
Correct.
>> 5.) Does Kemintiri play Ventrue Headquarters, or do I?
>
> Master cards are played by the methuselah, since they are not minion
> cards.
Correct.
>> 6.) Do I ever play Deflection, or do my minions do it instead?
>
> It's a minion card, so your minions play it.
...both the controller and the minion play it. Any card played is played by some
Methuselah.
> If it can be DI'd (ie. is a minion card) it's played by a minion.
Correct.
islando...@aol.com
> >> her advanced version, yes? I led to this in another thread but it
> >> seems I wasn't direct enough in my follow-up question.
>
Great. I know there's some sort of rule "you can't do something
that's impossible", but I'm not sure how it works exactly. Effective
Management with an empty crypt is illegal play, but Recruitment with
an empty crypt is OK (in line with this ruling), yes?
> >> 2.) Alfred Benezri (base) (w/obf skill card) becomes a cardinal
> >> through Cardinal Benediction, and the card is put on him. Next turn,
> >> he plays Epiphany, and finds an advanced copy, which is then put on
> >> him. Does he "gain" the title Archbishop, and burn the Cardinal
> >> Benediction? Or do the "cards on the vampire remain, " the merged
> >> Archbishop text merely overrides his Bishop text (which is moot now
> >> anyway), and he's still a Cardinal? I searched this group, but
> >> chronology was hard to follow.
>
> > He gains the title of archbishop, and thus loses the cardinal title.
>
> Correct.
So the advanced version's card text does NOT simply override the base
version's card text, it applies new changes. To be clear, Clan
Impersonation stays in play while Cardinal Benediction burns, yes?
Does CI continue to change clan to what it named, or does the new
change in clan have precedence?
I'd like to know specifically how merging interacts with some
permanent in-play and some permanent not-in-play-but-lingering
effects.
Alfred (base) gets Writ of Acceptance (stays in play), then Trophy:
Chosen (permanent lingering), then Out of the Frying Pan (permanent
but burns self), then merges. How does his sect change as these
effects are applied? Does he fail to become Sabbat Black Hand because
Writ still applies throughout?
-- Brian
P.S. Sucks about Kemintiri not playing Ventrue masters, I sort of
assumed she could until I read here otherwise and I think new players
would make the same mistake.
LSJ
>>>> 1.) Just making sure, Lena Rowe can play Epiphany and fail to find
>>>> her advanced version, yes? I led to this in another thread but it
>>>> seems I wasn't direct enough in my follow-up question.
>> Correct.
>
> Great. I know there's some sort of rule "you can't do something
> that's impossible", but I'm not sure how it works exactly. Effective
It is not impossible to search, so this is allowed.
> Management with an empty crypt is illegal play, but Recruitment with
> an empty crypt is OK (in line with this ruling), yes?
Yes. Effective Management cannot grab a "top card" when there is no top card.
Recruitment can search an empty crypt.
>>>> 2.) Alfred Benezri (base) (w/obf skill card) becomes a cardinal
>>>> through Cardinal Benediction, and the card is put on him. Next turn,
>>>> he plays Epiphany, and finds an advanced copy, which is then put on
>>>> him. Does he "gain" the title Archbishop, and burn the Cardinal
>>>> Benediction? Or do the "cards on the vampire remain, " the merged
>>>> Archbishop text merely overrides his Bishop text (which is moot now
>>>> anyway), and he's still a Cardinal? I searched this group, but
>>>> chronology was hard to follow.
>>> He gains the title of archbishop, and thus loses the cardinal title.
>> Correct.
>
> So the advanced version's card text does NOT simply override the base
> version's card text, it applies new changes. To be clear, Clan
If the overriding is a change, then overriding means the change is applied. The
two are the same.
> Impersonation stays in play while Cardinal Benediction burns, yes?
Yes.
> Does CI continue to change clan to what it named, or does the new
> change in clan have precedence?
The CI still applies.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/953111be9c8c6d12
> I'd like to know specifically how merging interacts with some
> permanent in-play and some permanent not-in-play-but-lingering
> effects.
>
> Alfred (base) gets Writ of Acceptance (stays in play), then Trophy:
> Chosen (permanent lingering), then Out of the Frying Pan (permanent
> but burns self), then merges. How does his sect change as these
> effects are applied? Does he fail to become Sabbat Black Hand because
> Writ still applies throughout?
Alfred = Sabbat
... gets a Writ = Camarilla (floating over Sabbat, meaning the sect is
remembered for when the Writ is removed, but covered by the Writ as long as the
Writ remains).
... gets Trophy: Chosen = he chooses to change his sect to Sabbat and become
Black Hand and gain blood. He still holds a Writ, so is still Camarilla (from
the Writ) covering the underlying Sabbat.
... goes Out of the Frying Pan = illegal, since he is not Sabbat (due to the Writ).
... merges = no effect on sect whatsoever, since the advanced version is the
same as the base version, as is the merged version. He is still Camarilla (from
the Writ) covering Sabbat.
See the URL linked above for more.