Political Titles
Andrew Daley
Lets say we have the Prince of Huston wanting to call a vote. That
vote is to become the Prince of Huston. Is that possible?
Also, if you are already a Prince can you become a Prince of a domain?
That is, not to hold 2 titles but rather change.
Is it possible for a vampire to recant his title?
When is it possible for a titled vampire to change title? For example
is a Prince able to become a Primogen? Or can a Prince become a
Justicar. There is no rules affecting this?
The same sort or questions apply to Sabbat vampires.
When a vampire that has 2 votes (independent) then clan impersonates
and then is voted to be a Prince, does that vampire have 4 votes? This
same thing applies when an independent becomes a sabbat.
Andrew.
The Lasombra
wrote:
>Lets say we have the Prince of Huston wanting to call a vote. That
>vote is to become the Prince of Huston. Is that possible?
As the vampire is Camarilla, it is completely possible for that
vampire to call a Praxis Seizure vote.
>Also, if you are already a Prince can you become a Prince of a domain?
>That is, not to hold 2 titles but rather change.
Yes.
>Is it possible for a vampire to recant his title?
Just recant, no.
A vampire can change to a clan of a opposing sect, and will lose the
benefits of their title. A vampire can also simply change sects and
lose the benefits of their title.
>When is it possible for a titled vampire to change title?
When they play a card that effects the change.
>For example is a Prince able to become a Primogen?
There are currently no cards in the game that directly allow this.
It can be done.
1) Lose the title
a) Change sect and gain another title
b) be victim of Blood Siege
c) contest prince title with another vampire and yield
2) Be recipient of Of Noble Blood.
>Or can a Prince become a Justicar.
If chosen to be the Justicar by the appropriate clan vote, yes.
>There is no rules affecting this?
Nope, just card text.
>The same sort or questions apply to Sabbat vampires.
So do the same sort of answers.
>When a vampire that has 2 votes (independent) then clan impersonates
>and then is voted to be a Prince, does that vampire have 4 votes?
No.
An independent vampire printed with 2 votes is titled. They will lose
that title if they gain another one.
>This same thing applies when an independent becomes a sabbat.
As above.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
salem
>Here is something that has come up in discussions.
>
>Lets say we have the Prince of Huston wanting to call a vote. That
>vote is to become the Prince of Huston. Is that possible?
yes. when he gains his new Prince of Houston Title, he loses his old
Prince of Houston title. Leaving him the Prince of Houston (and
presumably voter captivating for 2 pool. :)
>Also, if you are already a Prince can you become a Prince of a domain?
>That is, not to hold 2 titles but rather change.
yes, you can change cities.
>Is it possible for a vampire to recant his title?
not unless it is contested.
>When is it possible for a titled vampire to change title? For example
>is a Prince able to become a Primogen? Or can a Prince become a
>Justicar. There is no rules affecting this?
a vampire may only have one title. if they gain a new one, they lose
the old one, even if the new title is a 'demotion'.
a card that gives a title would need text to the effect of 'choose an
untitled vampire...' for you to not be able to choose already titled
vampires. Of Noble Blood, Praxis Seizures and Justicar votes lack such
designations (as do the sabbat title gainers).
>The same sort or questions apply to Sabbat vampires.
same for them.
>When a vampire that has 2 votes (independent) then clan impersonates
>and then is voted to be a Prince, does that vampire have 4 votes? This
>same thing applies when an independent becomes a sabbat.
no. independant vampires with votes printed on them are considered to
have a title. that title is (1 vote) or (2 votes). currently no
independats have more than 2 votes. These titles are not sect
dependant, so they will not lose them just from changing sects.
however, they will lose them if they gain a new title, just like any
other titled vampire.
See section 10 of the rulebook, Vampire Sects. It's pretty clear on
all this.
note that 'burn blood to gain vote(s)' is not a title, and Genevieve's
'additional vote' special ability is not a title either (because she's
not independant, and also you can't have more than one title).
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
salem
scrawled:
[snip]
>a card that gives a title would need text to the effect of 'choose an
>untitled vampire...' for you to not be able to choose already titled
>vampires. Of Noble Blood, Praxis Seizures and Justicar votes lack such
>designations (as do the sabbat title gainers).
ok, after reading Lasombra's reply to Andrew i went and re-read of
noble blood's text.
so..ignore the above paragraph please. :P
Halcyan 2
>
>There are currently no cards in the game that directly allow this.
>
>It can be done.
>1) Lose the title
> a) Change sect and gain another title
> b) be victim of Blood Siege
> c) contest prince title with another vampire and yield
>2) Be recipient of Of Noble Blood.
How about the case of Lazarus becoming a Prince and then Merging with Advanced
Lazarus? Since the Advanced text takes precedence, he'd go from Prince to
Primogen, right?
Halcyan 2
The Lasombra
>>>For example is a Prince able to become a Primogen?
>How about the case of Lazarus becoming a Prince and then Merging with Advanced
>Lazarus?
Yeah, you build the deck to do that.
I'll gladly be your prey.
> Since the Advanced text takes precedence, he'd go from Prince to
>Primogen, right?
Right.
Charles Lechasseur
<TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 11 Jul 2003 04:00:44 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote:
>> Since the Advanced text takes precedence, he'd go from Prince to
>>Primogen, right?
>
>Right.
i'm just curious: why is that? i would understand if Lazarus (basic) had a
title by card text, but this is not the case. a Praxis Seizure card reads
like this:
"Successful {referendum} means the acting vampire is declared Prince of
Amsterdam. This could lead to a contested title."
so the vampire becomes Prince, but it affects his/her card text? how come
that wasn't the case with Archon before they fixed the "loophole"? i
would've thought that the vampire would become Prince and would remember
that once merged (it is, after all, the same vampire after the merge).
--
charles lechasseur - da...@novideospamtron.ca
LSJ
> In article <5rdsgvgnka2fpdfm3...@4ax.com>, The Lasombra
> <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>On 11 Jul 2003 04:00:44 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote:
[If base Lazarus seizes praxis and is then merged with advanced Lazarus...]
>>>Since the Advanced text takes precedence, he'd go from Prince to
>>>Primogen, right?
>>
>>Right.
>
> i'm just curious: why is that? i would understand if Lazarus (basic) had a
> title by card text, but this is not the case. a Praxis Seizure card reads
> like this:
>
> "Successful {referendum} means the acting vampire is declared Prince of
> Amsterdam. This could lead to a contested title."
>
> so the vampire becomes Prince, but it affects his/her card text? how come
> that wasn't the case with Archon before they fixed the "loophole"? i
> would've thought that the vampire would become Prince and would remember
> that once merged (it is, after all, the same vampire after the merge).
Merging a vampire card with a title onto your vampire has the effect of
that vampire gaining that title (and losing any previous title he had).
Normally, base Laz would simply lose his primogen title as he gains
advanced Laz's primogen title. But in this case, since base Laz had
gained a prince title, he'd lose the prince title as he gained the
primogen title.
The merging itself won't clobber any existing effect, no. If the
merging doesn't grant a new title, then there's no effect that will
clobber the existing title (although the merge might change the
vampire's sect, sending the title into remission for a while).
But if the merge results in a title gain, the standard rules for
gaining titles are followed.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Andrew Daley
Thanks to TheLasombra and Salem. Just wanted to get the discussion out
there and cover all angles. :)
So lets say if a title vampire, such as:
Genevieve [Sabbat:V]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Gangrel antitribu
Group: 2
Capacity: 10
Discipline: aus dom ANI FOR PRO
Sabbat Priscus: Genevieve gets one additional vote during each
political action
If she changes sect or becomes an archbishop, does she still get her
additional vote?
LSJ
> Sabbat Priscus: Genevieve gets one additional vote during each
> political action
>
> If she changes sect or becomes an archbishop, does she still get her
> additional vote?
Yes. Note that her special ability extra vote is a main referendum
vote (it is not usable in the prisci sub-referendum), even while
she is a priscus.
hawk_the_demon
> title by card text, but this is not the case. a Praxis Seizure card reads
> like this:
>
> "Successful {referendum} means the acting vampire is declared Prince of
> Amsterdam. This could lead to a contested title."
>
> so the vampire becomes Prince, but it affects his/her card text? how come
> that wasn't the case with Archon before they fixed the "loophole"? i
> would've thought that the vampire would become Prince and would remember
> that once merged (it is, after all, the same vampire after the merge).
the justification on that the prince title is lost is that the
advanced version enters play and the existing basic version 'gains'
the primogen title, thus loosing the prince title.
similar, if basic tusk had gone anarch and then advanced tusk merges,
the merged one would be camarilla.
also, lucita(1), gone anarch and gaining a baron title would become a
sabbat archbishop when merged.
and if advanced lucita(2) manages to become cardinal, she would be
demoted on merge.
this is not a flawless mechanism as it is, but I can't think of an
obviously better way of doing it at the moment.
some ideas (not too deeply thought out yet):
1) sect changes do not apply if if original sect has changed.
this would prevent lucita(1) switching in the above case and in tusks
case, he would stay anarch.
2) title changes do not apply if the advanced and basic (or merged)
versions have the same title.
would prevent lazarus's demotion, stop lucita(1) from switching titles
and lucita(2)'s demotion.
3) the controller chooses which sect and title is used IF they have
changed since the first version entered play [see notes below] (they
have to be compatible of course)....
I can't see any abusable/broken components in this.
few notes on 3):
- if the printed sect on a current* vampire differs from the
incoming** one and has gained a title specific to the current sect,
that title would be lost (or become dormant) since the sect changes.
- if the sect of a current vampire has changed to a different sect and
possibly gained a title specific to that sect, the controller chooses
whether to use the sect (and title) of the current vampire or the ones
of the incoming one.
- cards that alter sect or clan are reapplied after the choice has
been made.
* can be either basic or advanced
** the merged one, using the merged text if different from advanced
text.
...thinks_up_a_complex_scenario...
how would this case be handled?
Tegyrius(Advanced) is out and has clan impersonated to a toreador and
is now a prince.
Tegyrius(Basic) is now merged with Tegyrius(Advanced).
as it is either of these would happen (I'm not sure wich, LSJ?):
a) Tegyrius is gaining a new title, and looses his previous one, but
since he is a toreador he can't gain any benefits from his new title
and now has no title unless he becomes an assamite, then he will be a
justicar.
b) Tegyrius can't become an assamite justicar because he is not an
assamite. he is still a prince and a toreador.
if the controller chooses:
- keep the prince title if the justicar title is of no importance.
- gain a temporarily unusable justicar title if he plans on burning
the CI.
any thoughts?
LSJ
> similar, if basic tusk had gone anarch and then advanced tusk merges,
> the merged one would be camarilla.
>
> also, lucita(1), gone anarch and gaining a baron title would become a
> sabbat archbishop when merged.
>
> and if advanced lucita(2) manages to become cardinal, she would be
> demoted on merge.
>
> this is not a flawless mechanism as it is, but I can't think of an
> obviously better way of doing it at the moment.
>
> some ideas (not too deeply thought out yet):
>
> 1) sect changes do not apply if if original sect has changed.
> this would prevent lucita(1) switching in the above case and in tusks
> case, he would stay anarch.
Lucita(1)'s original sect is Independent. It hasn't changed when she
is Anarch. She'd still become Sabbat Archbishop of Aragon when merged
under this rule.
>
> 2) title changes do not apply if the advanced and basic (or merged)
> versions have the same title.
> would prevent lazarus's demotion, stop lucita(1) from switching titles
> and lucita(2)'s demotion.
Since Lucita doesn't fit the condition (both versions having the same
title), this rule wouldn't affect her. She would become a Sabbat Archbishop
of Aragon when merged, even if her former self were a Baron or a Cardinal.
> 3) the controller chooses which sect and title is used IF they have
> changed since the first version entered play [see notes below] (they
> have to be compatible of course)....
Why only if they've changed?
If the base CI's and then switches back, he gets more choices than
if he just stands there?
> I can't see any abusable/broken components in this.
>
> few notes on 3):
> - if the printed sect on a current* vampire differs from the
> incoming** one and has gained a title specific to the current sect,
> that title would be lost (or become dormant) since the sect changes.
... unless he chose to keep the sect, right (as in the next case)?
> - if the sect of a current vampire has changed to a different sect and
> possibly gained a title specific to that sect, the controller chooses
> whether to use the sect (and title) of the current vampire or the ones
> of the incoming one.
> - cards that alter sect or clan are reapplied after the choice has
> been made.
>
> * can be either basic or advanced
> ** the merged one, using the merged text if different from advanced
> text.
>
> ...thinks_up_a_complex_scenario...
>
> how would this case be handled?
> Tegyrius(Advanced) is out and has clan impersonated to a toreador and
> is now a prince.
> Tegyrius(Basic) is now merged with Tegyrius(Advanced).
>
> as it is either of these would happen (I'm not sure wich, LSJ?):
>
> a) Tegyrius is gaining a new title, and looses his previous one, but
> since he is a toreador he can't gain any benefits from his new title
> and now has no title unless he becomes an assamite, then he will be a
> justicar.
a) is the official way.
> b) Tegyrius can't become an assamite justicar because he is not an
> assamite. he is still a prince and a toreador.
>
> if the controller chooses:
> - keep the prince title if the justicar title is of no importance.
> - gain a temporarily unusable justicar title if he plans on burning
> the CI.
>
> any thoughts?
--
Noal McDonald
> >It can be done.
> >1) Lose the title
> > a) Change sect and gain another title
> > b) be victim of Blood Siege
> > c) contest prince title with another vampire and yield
d) be victim of Command of the Harpies.
Regards,
Noal
Glen Robinson
specifics) of some of this question has been answered (you see... I was
there, and participated, when the original discussion was had with
Andrew)... Namely:
1. Can you call a vote to make a Justicar or Inner Circle member into a
Prince (for example)?
Use: Eg. You have Marcellus in a Guns-Blazing Torrie combat/vote deck.
Your prey gets out Leandro.
You call Praxis Seizure: Monaco, aim it at Leandro and succeed
in the vote (thus contesting
Marcellus's title). You then kick the crap out of Leandro, and
force him to yield (or Praxis
Solomon successfully, for the same).
If this is possible, does Leandro now have 0 votes and no title?
2. If you have a vampire with votes (but not a named title) and you make
them a Prince (for example), do they have the 2 Prince votes PLUS the
original votes?
Eg. You have Augustus Giovanni. You play (and succeed in the referendum
of) Giovanni Acceptance.
You then play Praxis Seizure: <Someplace> on him.
Does Augustus now have 4 votes?
Pahoehoe!
"Andrew Daley" <dal...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:8821ff0a.03071...@posting.google.com...
R. David Zopf
"Glen Robinson" <glen_r...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3f0eec5e$0$733$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Maybe it's because I'm half asleep, but I am not sure that the essence (or
> specifics) of some of this question has been answered (you see... I was
> there, and participated, when the original discussion was had with
> Andrew)... Namely:
>
> 1. Can you call a vote to make a Justicar or Inner Circle member into a
> Prince (for example)?
> Use: Eg. You have Marcellus in a Guns-Blazing Torrie combat/vote deck.
> Your prey gets out Leandro.
> You call Praxis Seizure: Monaco, aim it at Leandro and succeed
> in the vote (thus contesting
> Marcellus's title).
You must still be sleepy :) You cannot "aim" Praxi. By card text, the
"acting vampire" calling the vote gets the title.
> You then kick the crap out of Leandro, and
> force him to yield (or Praxis
> Solomon successfully, for the same).
>
> If this is possible, does Leandro now have 0 votes and no
title?
>
Assume for whatever reason Leandro contested the Prince title of his own
accord (he wanted acceess to the Traditions), then your scenario would play
out as otherwise described.
> 2. If you have a vampire with votes (but not a named title) and you make
> them a Prince (for example), do they have the 2 Prince votes PLUS the
> original votes?
> Eg. You have Augustus Giovanni. You play (and succeed in the
referendum
> of) Giovanni Acceptance.
> You then play Praxis Seizure: <Someplace> on him.
>
> Does Augustus now have 4 votes?
>
Nope. As explained in this thread and the Rules, vamps with printed votes
are considered titled. If Augustus gets a different title through the
scenario you described (or any other), he would automatically yield his
previous 2 votes when assuming his new title.
Vampires with political special abilities (eg. Genevieve) are treated
differently. Genevieve's "additional vote" is a seperate ability from her
printed title (Priscus).
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
Colin McGuigan
> 1. Can you call a vote to make a Justicar or Inner Circle member into a
> Prince (for example)?
Ermm...I'm pretty sure that you can, yes.
> 2. If you have a vampire with votes (but not a named title) and you make
> them a Prince (for example), do they have the 2 Prince votes PLUS the
> original votes?
The phrase "1 vote" and "2 votes" are titles. If Augustus became a
Prince, he would lose his 2 votes. The phrase "additional vote" is not
a title, however; if Gratiano became a non-Priscus, he would still have
a single vote in the Priscus sub-referendum.
--Colin McGuigan
Glen Robinson
succeed
> > in the vote (thus contesting
> > Marcellus's title).
>
> You must still be sleepy :) You cannot "aim" Praxi. By card text, the
> "acting vampire" calling the vote gets the title.
Um.. <sound of hand slapping forehead> You know, you might just be right
<grin>. I am also thinking of my old
Weenie-Justicars-and-Dragon's-Breath-Zip-Gun's (back when you could do that)
deck (with Justicar votes, that you CAN aim!).
Pahoehoe!
hawk_the_demon
> is Anarch. She'd still become Sabbat Archbishop of Aragon when merged
> under this rule.
erm... not too well thought out, obviously :-)
> Since Lucita doesn't fit the condition (both versions having the same
> title), this rule wouldn't affect her. She would become a Sabbat Archbishop
> of Aragon when merged, even if her former self were a Baron or a Cardinal.
>
> > 3) the controller chooses which sect and title is used IF they have
> > changed since the first version entered play [see notes below] (they
> > have to be compatible of course)....
>
> Why only if they've changed?
> If the base CI's and then switches back, he gets more choices than
> if he just stands there?
it was just a thought. if nothing has changed the original card, I
thought it was normal for the merge to have the effect as it was
written.
> > I can't see any abusable/broken components in this.
> >
> > few notes on 3):
> > - if the printed sect on a current* vampire differs from the
> > incoming** one and has gained a title specific to the current sect,
> > that title would be lost (or become dormant) since the sect changes.
>
> ... unless he chose to keep the sect, right (as in the next case)?
exactly. forgot to put in the key word: "choice" here, as well as
everything relevant to that.
> > a) Tegyrius is gaining a new title, and looses his previous one, but
> > since he is a toreador he can't gain any benefits from his new title
> > and now has no title unless he becomes an assamite, then he will be a
> > justicar.
>
> a) is the official way.
ok, thanks.
Andrew Daley
> specifics) of some of this question has been answered (you see... I was
> there, and participated, when the original discussion was had with
> Andrew)... Namely:
Sleep more!!! :) I try.
> 1. Can you call a vote to make a Justicar or Inner Circle member into a
> Prince (for example)?
> Use: Eg. You have Marcellus in a Guns-Blazing Torrie combat/vote deck.
> Your prey gets out Leandro.
> You call Praxis Seizure: Monaco, aim it at Leandro and succeed
> in the vote (thus contesting
> Marcellus's title).
As it has been stated, the acting vampire becomes the Prince so no to
you scenerio. :) Though he can be the target of a Justicar vote, thus
reducing his title.
> You then kick the crap out of Leandro, and
> force him to yield (or Praxis
> Solomon successfully, for the same).
I dunno if you can do this. Praxis Solomon is for contested cards. I
don't think you can use for contested titles.
> If this is possible, does Leandro now have 0 votes and no title?
Lets say that Leandro relents his new found title of Justicar after
contesting it with Lucian. He would indeed end up with no title and no
votes.
> 2. If you have a vampire with votes (but not a named title)
Lasombra, in post 2, indicated that independent vampires with votes
are considered titled. They loose their votes after changing sect.
This makes your remaining questions redundent.
I suppose the question that then comes up is what if some calls a vote
to make one of your prey's vampires a Justicar. If say your prey
already has a Justicar of that clan already and you successfully make
another vampire the Justicar, what actually will happen? Does the
original vampire burn his title? A meth can't obviously contest a
title amongst his own vampires. Or you can't make the new vampire a
justicar as there is already one out in play?
Andrew
The Lasombra
wrote:
>I suppose the question that then comes up is what if some calls a vote
>to make one of your prey's vampires a Justicar. If say your prey
>already has a Justicar of that clan already and you successfully make
>another vampire the Justicar, what actually will happen?
One of the two vampires will pay to contest, the other will yield.
The next turn, the one that paid will regain the Justicar title.
4.2. Contested Titles
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/
You are prohibited from contesting cards with yourself, not titles.
>Does the original vampire burn his title?
No.
>A meth can't obviously contest a title amongst his own vampires.
Actually, they can.
Whether or not they should is a completely different matter.
>Or you can't make the new vampire a
>justicar as there is already one out in play?
You can.
Callling and passing the vote is all that is required.
Andrew Daley
I got the hands on now! :) Thank you for the discussion and clearing
things up for me.
Andrew.
salem
<atomw...@yahoo.com> scrawled:
>Nope. As explained in this thread and the Rules, vamps with printed votes
>are considered titled. If Augustus gets a different title through the
ach. important: INDEPENDANT vampires with printed votes are considered
titled.
>scenario you described (or any other), he would automatically yield his
>previous 2 votes when assuming his new title.
>
>Vampires with political special abilities (eg. Genevieve) are treated
>differently. Genevieve's "additional vote" is a seperate ability from her
>printed title (Priscus).
true. :)
Charles Lechasseur
wrote:
>Merging a vampire card with a title onto your vampire has the effect of
>that vampire gaining that title (and losing any previous title he had).
>
>Normally, base Laz would simply lose his primogen title as he gains
>advanced Laz's primogen title. But in this case, since base Laz had
>gained a prince title, he'd lose the prince title as he gained the
>primogen title.
>
>The merging itself won't clobber any existing effect, no. If the
>merging doesn't grant a new title, then there's no effect that will
>clobber the existing title (although the merge might change the
>vampire's sect, sending the title into remission for a while).
>
>But if the merge results in a title gain, the standard rules for
>gaining titles are followed.
ok. my mistake. the example was for Lazarus, and I didn't remember that he
was a primogen (shows how many times i've played him).
so basically, if i understand correctly, if basic Tusk becomes a Prince
via a Praxis Seizure and then merges with advanced Tusk, he keeps his
title, right?
i guess that if the advanced version has no title, it doesn't count as a
title loss, so Quentin III merged would still be Prince per the title of
his basic version? (sorry to ask questions that seem so obvious, just want
to make sure i don't mix everything up.)
The Lasombra
Lechasseur) wrote:
>>Merging a vampire card with a title onto your vampire has the effect of
>>that vampire gaining that title (and losing any previous title he had).
>>Normally, base Laz would simply lose his primogen title as he gains
>>advanced Laz's primogen title. But in this case, since base Laz had
>>gained a prince title, he'd lose the prince title as he gained the
>>primogen title.
>>The merging itself won't clobber any existing effect, no. If the
>>merging doesn't grant a new title, then there's no effect that will
>>clobber the existing title (although the merge might change the
>>vampire's sect, sending the title into remission for a while).
>>But if the merge results in a title gain, the standard rules for
>>gaining titles are followed.
>ok. my mistake. the example was for Lazarus, and I didn't remember that he
>was a primogen (shows how many times i've played him).
>so basically, if i understand correctly, if basic Tusk becomes a Prince
>via a Praxis Seizure and then merges with advanced Tusk, he keeps his
>title, right?
Correct.
>i guess that if the advanced version has no title, it doesn't count as a
>title loss, so Quentin III merged would still be Prince per the title of
>his basic version? (sorry to ask questions that seem so obvious, just want
>to make sure i don't mix everything up.)
Correct.
hawk_the_demon
> > > changed since the first version entered play [see notes below] (they
> > > have to be compatible of course)....
> >
> > Why only if they've changed?
> > If the base CI's and then switches back, he gets more choices than
> > if he just stands there?
>
> it was just a thought. if nothing has changed the original card, I
> thought it was normal for the merge to have the effect as it was
> written.
maybe if they are different from the original... not just changed.