Forbes on bike lanes

[Frank Krygowski]

An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
seldom do it anymore.

[Tom Kunich]

You have a bike designed more or less for crippled people. While it is easy to operate and fast, it is too close to the ground and too easy for traffic to overlook. Bike lanes work very well with regular bicycles. The only weakness of them is that too many very poor drivers believe that bicycles are limited to bicycle lanes. This could be easily fixed with suitable questions on the driver's license exam. But DMV's are too often peopled by people as dumb as many drivers.

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 1:59:32 PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>> >
>> >https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>> >
>> >- Frank Krygowski
>> Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>> seldom do it anymore.
>
>You have a bike designed more or less for crippled people.

Nonsense. I know of many trike riders and I've seen many more. I've
never seen any crippled trike riders. They're a bit of a phenomenon
around here. I see a couple of them on my regular rides, and there's a
bike trail a few miles away where there will be as many trikes as two
wheelers, sometimes more. I started on the first one because I was
tired of the discomfort of two wheeler seats and bars. I'm a big guy,
heavily muscled, and my butt and and wrists were hurting. I was
quickly hooked and quickly upgraded to the better quality Catrike. I
told people I could ride faster on diamond frame, but longer and
further on the Catrike. I was soon doing 70/80+ mile rides without
taking a break, something I could never do on a two-wheeler. By the
way, not having to unclip every time I stop is wonderful.

[Tom Kunich]

I went on a cruise ship to Mexico with my wife's children. One of the programs was put on by a woman and I suppose her husband who had some sort of illness that paralyzed half of his body. They had these trikes and had crossed the US from coast to coast both ways. They dropped off in Mexico where I think their plan was to ride from Mexico City to Alaska.

[John B.]

By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>
>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>
>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>
>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>seldom do it anymore.
>
>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!

You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...

Let freedom ring

[Roger Merriman]

It’s opinion dressed up as facts, for example cycle lanes most certainly
can be built with out having traffic turning across it, Westminster to the
The Tower in london is one.

And if it is, can be light etc controlled CS9 which is a new segregated
lane from Kew Bridge to Hammersmith does that, does mean you end up like
cars waiting at lights etc, but certainly no slower than the road.

Roger Merriman.

[Frank Krygowski]

You seem to be treating "safe" as a binary condition. It's assigning such a label is far, far more
complicated than a simple "safe" vs. "not safe" evaluation.

For example: Safe compared to what? And measured how - per mile traveled? Per hour exposure?
Per trip? Per trip of approximately similar distance? Before answering, please note that cycling
has been repeatedly been measured as safer than walking in terms of fatalities per mile.

How about defining an activity as "safe" if it meets the criterion "safer than not doing the activity"?
To me, that sounds pretty simple and logical. By that standard, bicycling is certainly "safe" on average.
Every study on its benefits vs. detriments has determined that the health benefits of cycling greatly
outweigh its risks.

Which does not mean it's safe for everybody in every situation. Many people are just not safe, due
mostly to their knowledge and behavior on a bike. But, as they say, ignorance can be fixed. There are
organizations that teach even very timid people to ride on normal roads among traffic. For example,
https://cyclingsavvy.org/

That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 7:45:57 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
> >
> > https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> It’s opinion dressed up as facts, for example cycle lanes most certainly
> can be built with out having traffic turning across it, Westminster to the
> The Tower in london is one.

I just looked at Google Maps' recommendation for biking that route. It looks like you're right -
very specifically because you have a waterside path, and underpasses or flyovers. FWIW, I
think such paths are usually fine. But in any typical city, they cannot possibly reach a large
percentage of destinations.

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski

Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird. If I must travel among the
angry drivers and exhaust spewing vehicles, it will be in air
conditioned comfort with the windows up and good music on the radio.

BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.

For what it's worth, I too hope you never ride the bike trails around
me. We already have enough pricks on them.

[John B.]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider

<sol...@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>>
>>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>>
>>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>>seldom do it anymore.
>>
>>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
>
>You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
>of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
>Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
>
>Let freedom ring

I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.

As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
traffic laws come to mind. In fact I read that even books are banned
in the U.S.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Oculus Lights]

Or that driving cars and trucks on roads and highways should be banned. "Every road is a bike lane"

[AMuzi]

'inappropriate for young children' in a school setting is
not at all the same as 'banned books'.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[John B.]

Certainly. a great idea.... well except in most economies a great deal
of traffic is concerned with hauling stuff from place to place. Here I
see trucks with a 40ft container and hauling a trailer with another 40
ft container. I believe the max capacity of a 40 ft container is in
the neighborhood of 22,000 kg.

Sure take a lot of bikes to haul 40,000 kg of goods (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

That is a play on words. Banned - prohibit especially by legal means
or social pressure.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[sms]

As soon as the author quoted John Forester she lost all credibility.

[Frank Krygowski]

That's a fact-free , anti-intellectual response! Why not deal with the factual portions of the article?

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 07:25:58 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>>>
>>>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>>>seldom do it anymore.
>>>
>>>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>>>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
>>
>>You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
>>of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
>>Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
>>
>>Let freedom ring
>
>I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
>have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.
>
>As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
>traffic laws come to mind.

That's more a case where almost everybody thinks it's unsafe

> In fact I read that even books are banned
>in the U.S.
>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html

So do you really think it's OK for school libraries to have
pornography?

[John B.]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 04:23:25 -0400, Catrike Rider

If a book is "legal" in a society then it should be "legal" in schools
in that society.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 15:41:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Do you have any children? If so, how young were they when you thought
it was ok for them to have access to pornography?

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 7:45:57 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>

>>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?shS4453f74ca8

>>>
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>> It s opinion dressed up as facts, for example cycle lanes most certainly
>> can be built with out having traffic turning across it, Westminster to the
>> The Tower in london is one.
>
> I just looked at Google Maps' recommendation for biking that route. It
> looks like you're right -
> very specifically because you have a waterside path, and underpasses or flyovers. FWIW, I
> think such paths are usually fine. But in any typical city, they cannot
> possibly reach a large
> percentage of destinations.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Probably not but most city certainly do have a river bank and london is not
alone in using it’s like this.

And get other objects such as edge of parks and what not that can be used
in the same way.

More modern ones will have light controlled junctions new one I linked last
post has that, so each junction is controlled. Ie cars can only turn at the
junctions not directly across the cycle path.

In all of this it requires a bit of bravery by the councils etc, as cars
etc and people in general dislike change, but realistically cars are being
limited where they can go in various city’s.

London has changed with that, it still has some elevated walkways from
after the war when car was king, so only the cars used the roads.

But times change.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 05:01:04 -0400, Catrike Rider

I guess the question is "what is pornography". After all farm kids
learn all about why mammals have babies at very early ages and in most
cases children in families with more then one child usually learn what
the other sex looks like and why little girls squat to pee and little
boys do it standing up pretty early on.

But, one might ask, if pornography is nasty then why isn't it
outlawed? Why do you want nasty things in your society?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 16:56:38 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Seriously? You don't know what pornography is?

>But, one might ask, if pornography is nasty then why isn't it
>outlawed? Why do you want nasty things in your society?

Well, you see, we have this freedom of speech thing where the
government doesn't get to dictate what we say, and thus what we hear
and see. As for the chldren most of us believe that in most cases, the
parents do get to decide what their children should be exposed to.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
> >
> >- Frank Krygowski
> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.

That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.

> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.

OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)

How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?

Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
really are more than mine.

- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 6:08:48 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 16:56:38 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >I guess the question is "what is pornography". After all farm kids
> >learn all about why mammals have babies at very early ages and in most
> >cases children in families with more then one child usually learn what
> >the other sex looks like and why little girls squat to pee and little
> >boys do it standing up pretty early on.

> Seriously? You don't know what pornography is?

He isn't alone:

" I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that" - United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart describing his threshold test for obscenity in Jacobellis v. Ohio.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-LB-4558

It's clearly subjective.

[Tom Kunich]

Slocum with his usual big mouth fails to mention that he doesn't ride bikes.

[Tom Kunich]

I am not a great fan of bike trails. They end up packed with pedestrians and dog walkers who think that bikes are in their way. Bike lanes on a street work very well.

[Tom Kunich]

Again, Slocum allows his dementia to spill over more and more into this group. He has no children and only married a Thai woman so that he would have a free housekeeper.

[Lou Holtman]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:55:42 AM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:


> That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
> are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
> That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Speaking of prejudice ... Geezz you hit a new low.

Lou

[Tom Kunich]

Frank lives in the middle of nowhere and hence never sees very heavy traffic. He can't even imagine traffic like most of the rest of bike riders see. On my rude on a road in the middle of nowhere that really has no interesting destination, I was still passed by around 100 cars with out of sight gasoline prices on a Sunday.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
>> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
>> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
>> >
>> >- Frank Krygowski
>> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
>> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
>> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
>> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
>
>That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
>to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
>
>> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
>> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
>
>OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)

<CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
couldn't come up witha response..

>How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
>by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
>How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
>roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
>foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
>100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
>How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?

<LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
biking courage and experience.

>Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
>really are more than mine.

<SNORT> I'm not the least bit interested in your, or anyone else's
evaluation of my "courage and experience, nor am I interested in you
beyond my current evaluation of you as a loudmouth blowhard.

>- Frank Krygowski

Why is it that leftist loons are always so eager to get at other's
personal information?

[Catrike Rider]

Bike trails in the city and suburbs may be crowded. I know of a few
that are, but I stay away from them. On most of the trails I ride I
seldom see walkers and often ride the whole 20 miles up and twenty
miles nack with only seeing a dozen or so other riders.

[Catrike Rider]

Frank is angry at me for shredding his political rhetoric. It's OK.
I've got big shoulders.

[Catrike Rider]

By the way, I really dislike the group ride organizers who convince a
bunch of follow-the-leader group thinkers to run along beside each
other so they can gossip and not bother watching where they are going.
I expect the organizers imagine themselves as leaders of some sort.
People who thirst for the attention they get while leading the pack.

[sms]

It's classic "vehicular cycling" speak. No inexperienced cyclists should
be on two wheels. Children should never learn how to ride in a safe
environment.

Yesterday we did a ride from my daughter's house in Albany, CA. We
reached the end of her street and there was a car that had hit a cyclist
in an area that lacked a protected bike lane. He was alive, the bicycle
was destroyed, and the car had front end damage. The police were there
but an ambulance had not yet arrived. After two blocks we were on MUPs
for the rest of the ride to the Rosie the Riveter National Historical Park.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:05:10 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

I never understood the "you must do as I do or I hate you" attidude.
I'm a "do what you want as long as you don't interfere with others
doing what they want" kind of guy.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 12:56:35 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 9:36:35 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:55:42 AM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > > That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
> > > are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
> > > That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
> > >
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > Speaking of prejudice ... Geezz you hit a new low.

Sorry it offends you, Lou, but there are many people who lack the competence to ride anywhere but
a bike path. There are many people who are afraid to ride even on quiet streets. I've met both types.
As I said, they're free to continue doing that. I don't have to admire that timidity.

> Frank lives in the middle of nowhere and hence never sees very heavy traffic. He can't even imagine traffic like most of the rest of bike riders see.

Let's see: I've ridden Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington DC, Pittsburgh, Charlotte NC, Jacksonville FL, Cleveland, Akron, Columbus, Cincinnati, Nashville, Atlanta, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, Los Angeles, San
Francisco, Portland, Toronto, Paris, Dublin, Amsterdam... How long of a list do you need?

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
> >> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
> >> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
> >> >
> >> >- Frank Krygowski
> >> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
> >> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
> >> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
> >> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
> >
> >That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
> >to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
> >
> >> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
> >> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
> >
> >OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)
> <CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
> lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
> because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
> couldn't come up witha response..

Bad assumption.

> >How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
> >by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
> >How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
> >roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
> >foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
> >100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
> >How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?
> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
> biking courage and experience.

If you had done bike camping, you would know you are wrong. And organizing a multi-hundred
rider event certainly does require experience and knowledge about cycling.

> >Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
> >really are more than mine.
> <SNORT> I'm not the least bit interested in your, or anyone else's

> evaluation of my "courage and experience...

Gosh, a day ago you were guessing you knew as much as I do!

I will concede, you probably know more than I do about one aspect of cycling: hauling a tricycle
around in a pickup truck and unloading it to ride back and forth on a bike path. But your lack of
detailed response is adequate proof you know much less than I do about cycling.

Again, perhaps that's fine for you. Do whatever it takes to keep yourself moving. But don't pretend to
any real expertise regarding cycling.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 3:05:16 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
>
> It's classic "vehicular cycling" speak. No inexperienced cyclists should
> be on two wheels. Children should never learn how to ride in a safe
> environment.

You could try discussing what I've actually said, rather than imagining positions
you'd prefer to disagree with.

But your "safe environment" is defined how? Are you, too, going to pretend "safe" is
a binary condition?

As I've mentioned, Columbus Ohio installed about a mile of "nice safe protected cycletrack"
and saw a thirteen-fold increase in the number of car-bike crashes. Does that cycletrack
qualify as "safe" in your book? If so, why?

Here's one of those crashes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k6-AI_X1qE

Some protection!

- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
> >> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
> >> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
> >> >
> >> >- Frank Krygowski
> >> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
> >> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
> >> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
> >> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
> >
> >That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
> >to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
> >
> >> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
> >> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
> >
> >OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)
> <CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
> lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
> because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
> couldn't come up witha response..

Franks a bit of a curmudgeon here, but at the end of the day he's one of the more worthy individuals to have technical discussion with unlike certain other individuals that claim to be in the upper echelon of cycling technology but can't figure out a fucking quick link (https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/Z4vNkmV1BgAJ). As far as your alleged political debating prowess, he might have sensed you gravitating toward the RBT magatard side of the spectrum along with andre the useless - who continues to use this forum as nothing but his own personal political toilet - and RBT's own Walter Mitty (aka tommy the liar) - who has come up with such gems as 'there was no recession before obama took office' and 'i couldn't figure out why my bike wouldn't shift until I bought the special campy non-stretch shifting cables' (the list is nearly endless) - I think it's far more likely frank would rather disengage than perform an exercise akin to wrestling with a pig.*

> >How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
> >by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
> >How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
> >roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
> >foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
> >100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
> >How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?
>
> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
> biking courage and experience.

Clearly you've never done either. They both do, and quite dramatically. Such activities contribute _greatly_ to ones cycling acumen. If someone wanted to talk to me about handling or repairing a bike under difficult conditions, I would certainly pay more attention to an experienced bike-packer than someone who rides a three-wheeler on a paved bike path. I have a great deal of respect for someone who can ride for a hundred miles in hilly terrain on a touring bike loaded with camping gear, especially in inclement weather. That's not to imply that I _don't_ respect the bike-path-trike-rider, I respect anyone who gets out on an HPV, but to claim that bikepacking and organizing events "adds nothing" is completely wrong.

Organizing group rides takes an understanding of the audience and the goals. Picking courses, setting up rest stops, sometimes mobile support and coordinating/enforcing marshals at busy intersections and first responders all take an understanding of the activity of cycling in general and each event adds to experienced gained in the sport. Take it a step further and promote USAC races - which I have a great deal of experience in. The difficulties increase by an order of magnitude when dealing with USAC officials, scoring, and the more-than-occasional 32-year-old cat 5 wannbe puke that threatens to sue (and even physical violence) because he got scored second for the $5 prize in the half-way prime. It's called "giving back". You should try it sometime. I have little respect for people who show up at these events and denigrate the volunteer standing on a remote corner of the course wearing an orange vest.

> >Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
> >really are more than mine.
> <SNORT> I'm not the least bit interested in your, or anyone else's
> evaluation of my "courage and experience, nor am I interested in you
> beyond my current evaluation of you as a loudmouth blowhard.
>
> >- Frank Krygowski
>
> Why is it that leftist loons are always so eager to get at other's
> personal information?

Very clearly, you haven't been paying much attention to tom and andre. They are the only ones here who demanded that I tell them what I do for a living, if I'm married (they both have some sort of bizarre homoerotic fantasy about me), how many kids I have, how old I am - no one else here has made any such demands. So this hypothetical of yours that 'only leftist loons' seem to do it is very clearly proven wrong in this forum, by the two loudest and most arrogant right-wingers we have.

I also notice you post under an anonymous handle. I don't care, the vast majority here don't. The exceptions are - you guessed it - tom and andre. They both regularly criticize me for posting anonymously. "The anonymous coward zencycle" is one of their favorites, claiming that anyone posting anonymously is a coward and unworthy of human dignity. Tommy likes to follow it up with threats of violence. He regularly threatens to 'cave [enter name here] skull in', 'break [enter name here] legs'. Of course I'm guessing their hypocrisy will be on full display in your case, since you've already noted at least sympathy (if not outright support) for trump. *

BTW - Very few bicycle-related discussion gets started in this forum without one of those two turning it into a personal attack within the first few responses. Here are a couple of recent classic examples:

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/tuLzyUUoN6c/m/_Qz5o5VAAAAJ
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/IFISJQJ6voU/m/vNGasPEpBgAJ
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qfAQlQyDvJQ/m/LT0zABlKBgAJ
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/-0vf-tuaAQAJ

* I haven't read any of your political contributions, and I don't _intend_ to.

[Catrike Rider]

Clearly you don't have a clue.

> They both do, and quite dramatically. Such activities contribute _greatly_ to ones cycling acumen. If someone wanted to talk to me about handling or repairing a bike under difficult conditions, I would certainly pay more attention to an experienced bike-packer than someone who rides a three-wheeler on a paved bike path. I have a great deal of respect for someone who can ride for a hundred miles in hilly terrain on a touring bike loaded with camping gear, especially in inclement weather. That's not to imply that I _don't_ respect the bike-path-trike-rider, I respect anyone who gets out on an HPV, but to claim that bikepacking and organizing events "adds nothing" is completely wrong.

Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts
carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than
having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and
lots of tools. Camping is a skill I learned as child. The knowledge is
knowing what to bring and how to use it. Real camping, BTW, is never
going to be done where you can ride a bicycle.

> Organizing group rides takes an understanding of the audience and the goals. Picking courses, setting up rest stops, sometimes mobile support and coordinating/enforcing marshals at busy intersections and first responders all take an understanding of the activity of cycling in general and each event adds to experienced gained in the sport. Take it a step further and promote USAC races - which I have a great deal of experience in. The difficulties increase by an order of magnitude when dealing with USAC officials, scoring, and the more-than-occasional 32-year-old cat 5 wannbe puke that threatens to sue (and even physical violence) because he got scored second for the $5 prize in the half-way prime. It's called "giving back". You should try it sometime. I have little respect for people who show up at these events and denigrate the volunteer standing on a remote corner of the course wearing an orange vest.

I, on the other hand, have little respect for those who play follow
the leader on bicycles.

>> >Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
>> >really are more than mine.
>> <SNORT> I'm not the least bit interested in your, or anyone else's
>> evaluation of my "courage and experience, nor am I interested in you
>> beyond my current evaluation of you as a loudmouth blowhard.
>>
>> >- Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Why is it that leftist loons are always so eager to get at other's
>> personal information?
>
>Very clearly, you haven't been paying much attention to tom and andre. They are the only ones here who demanded that I tell them what I do for a living, if I'm married (they both have some sort of bizarre homoerotic fantasy about me), how many kids I have, how old I am - no one else here has made any such demands. So this hypothetical of yours that 'only leftist loons' seem to do it is very clearly proven wrong in this forum, by the two loudest and most arrogant right-wingers we have.
>
>I also notice you post under an anonymous handle. I don't care, the vast majority here don't. The exceptions are - you guessed it - tom and andre. They both regularly criticize me for posting anonymously. "The anonymous coward zencycle" is one of their favorites, claiming that anyone posting anonymously is a coward and unworthy of human dignity. Tommy likes to follow it up with threats of violence. He regularly threatens to 'cave [enter name here] skull in', 'break [enter name here] legs'. Of course I'm guessing their hypocrisy will be on full display in your case, since you've already noted at least sympathy (if not outright support) for trump. *

Actually, all I did was correct some inaccurate politcal propaganda

>BTW - Very few bicycle-related discussion gets started in this forum without one of those two turning it into a personal attack within the first few responses. Here are a couple of recent classic examples:
>
>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/tuLzyUUoN6c/m/_Qz5o5VAAAAJ
>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/IFISJQJ6voU/m/vNGasPEpBgAJ
>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qfAQlQyDvJQ/m/LT0zABlKBgAJ
>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/-0vf-tuaAQAJ
>
>* I haven't read any of your political contributions, and I don't _intend_ to.

I'll keep political contributions limited to shredding other's
political contributions. I have no need to politic here, but I'll
challenge political nonsense.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski

Bad assumption.

>And organizing a multi-hundred
>rider event certainly does require experience and knowledge about cycling.

Nonsense, but it might require a desire to tell others what to do. Do
you get a thrill out of that? Does it make you feel big and important?
Does it improve your self esteem when others follow your orders? Do
you ever wonder what kind of person would voluntarily subject
themselves to that?

>> >Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
>> >really are more than mine.
>> <SNORT> I'm not the least bit interested in your, or anyone else's
>> evaluation of my "courage and experience...
>
>Gosh, a day ago you were guessing you knew as much as I do!

Actually, I was assuming I knew more than you. I'm still pretty sure I
do. You're just a immature little nobody with lots of angry noise.

>I will concede, you probably know more than I do about one aspect of cycling: hauling a tricycle
>around in a pickup truck and unloading it to ride back and forth on a bike path. But your lack of
>detailed response is adequate proof you know much less than I do about cycling.

Ah yes, you gave me detailed orders and I told you to shove them up
your ass. <LOL> Fine leader you are..

>Again, perhaps that's fine for you. Do whatever it takes to keep yourself moving. But don't pretend to
>any real expertise regarding cycling.

I never pretend.

>- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 4:45:57 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>

>>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?shS4453f74ca8

>>>
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>> It s opinion dressed up as facts, for example cycle lanes most certainly
>> can be built with out having traffic turning across it, Westminster to the
>> The Tower in london is one.
>>
>> And if it is, can be light etc controlled CS9 which is a new segregated
>> lane from Kew Bridge to Hammersmith does that, does mean you end up like
>> cars waiting at lights etc, but certainly no slower than the road.
>
> I am not a great fan of bike trails. They end up packed with pedestrians
> and dog walkers who think that bikes are in their way. Bike lanes on a
> street work very well.
>

Well some are for example I go though 3 parks on way to work normally, they
are generally pleasant places but not places for traveling fast, unless
it’s very early or late which I am sometimes, as you will get folks walking
dogs/children folks on adapted bikes and so on.

But that is rather the point of that route ie its not direct adds 2 miles
and 10mins but its a far more pleasant journey, largely traffic free very
green route.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 4:50:54 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>
> >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
> >> biking courage and experience.
> >
> >If you had done bike camping, you would know you are wrong.
> Bad assumption.

Hmm. You're saying you wouldn't know you were wrong even if you _had_ done some bike
camping? OK, that's more reasonable than most of what you've written.

> >And organizing a multi-hundred
> >rider event certainly does require experience and knowledge about cycling.
> Nonsense, but it might require a desire to tell others what to do.

It sounds like you're guessing based on zero experience.You're certainly being very closed mouth
about your actual experience. Please tell us about the invitational bike rides you've organized.
Did yours ever win a national award? (Mine did, from the League of American Bicyclists.)

In fact, please tell us about the organized century rides you've attended. If you did have experience,
you'd know there's not much "telling people what to do" involved. There is lots of work choosing good
routes, marking routes, providing maps, organizing lunch and snack stops, providing support repairs, etc.
People choose whether or not to do the ride, whether or not to follow the route precisely, etc. and are
glad for the support. They are happy enough that they pay money for the privilege of riding the route.

> Actually, I was assuming I knew more than you. I'm still pretty sure I
> do.

It shouldn't be very hard to explain why, if you actually have relevant experience. Your silence (except
for insults) is very telling.

> >I will concede, you probably know more than I do about one aspect of cycling: hauling a tricycle
> >around in a pickup truck and unloading it to ride back and forth on a bike path. But your lack of
> >detailed response is adequate proof you know much less than I do about cycling.
> Ah yes, you gave me detailed orders and I told you to shove them up
> your ass.

You told us nothing because you've got nothing. If you knew anything, you'd have proven it by now.
Get back on your socialist-provided bike path and pottle away. But do be careful! For some people,
riding is very, very scary!

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 15:36:51 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 4:50:54 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >>
>> >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
>> >> biking courage and experience.
>> >
>> >If you had done bike camping, you would know you are wrong.
>> Bad assumption.
>
>Hmm. You're saying you wouldn't know you were wrong even if you _had_ done some bike
>camping? OK, that's more reasonable than most of what you've written.
>
>> >And organizing a multi-hundred
>> >rider event certainly does require experience and knowledge about cycling.
>> Nonsense, but it might require a desire to tell others what to do.
>
>It sounds like you're guessing based on zero experience.You're certainly being very closed mouth
>about your actual experience. Please tell us about the invitational bike rides you've organized.
>Did yours ever win a national award? (Mine did, from the League of American Bicyclists.)

<SNICKER> I don't play follow the leader.. I ride to get away from
people, especially those kinds of people.

>
>In fact, please tell us about the organized century rides you've attended. If you did have experience,
>you'd know there's not much "telling people what to do" involved. There is lots of work choosing good
>routes, marking routes, providing maps, organizing lunch and snack stops, providing support repairs, etc.

<LOL> Not much riding experience there. Sounds more like sitting on
the couch with a computer "work."

>People choose whether or not to do the ride, whether or not to follow the route precisely, etc. and are
>glad for the support. They are happy enough that they pay money for the privilege of riding the route.

I want nothing to do with anybody that needs some organizer to plan
their ride.

>> Actually, I was assuming I knew more than you. I'm still pretty sure I
>> do.
>
>It shouldn't be very hard to explain why, if you actually have relevant experience. Your silence (except
>for insults) is very telling.

Some people, you for instance, seem to need validation from others. I
couldn't care less what a bunch of strangers think of me. Unlike you,
my self-image is quite secure.

>> >I will concede, you probably know more than I do about one aspect of cycling: hauling a tricycle
>> >around in a pickup truck and unloading it to ride back and forth on a bike path. But your lack of
>> >detailed response is adequate proof you know much less than I do about cycling.
>> Ah yes, you gave me detailed orders and I told you to shove them up
>> your ass.
>
>You told us nothing because you've got nothing. If you knew anything, you'd have proven it by now.

I not only told you nothing, I laughed mercilessly at your silly
demands for my personal information.

>Get back on your socialist-provided bike path and pottle away. But do be careful! For some people,
>riding is very, very scary!

Don't be angry at me. It's not my fault that you can't match my bike
riding performance.

>- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

Unusual as it may seem, I must agree with Frank. I ride/rode in
Bangkok which has rather heavy traffic and only once in, perhaps 20
years did I have a problem - I started to pass a bus on the left - we
drive on the left here - only to find that he was turning left and I
had to hop up on the sidewalk to avoid being squashed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQgqOJdOkDY
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Errr... Tommy, did you forget to take your medicine again? You seem to
be condemning me but none of the conversations shown in your message
had anything to do with me.

But, I suppose that we can chalk this up to "just another of Tommy's
fantasies", like his resume.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Gee Tommy, so may posts, so many lies.
Are you really so bigoted as to believe that a wife is free help?
Well, I suppose if you keep her in a "dog house out the back" but most
people keep them in the house and buy them clothes and jewelry and a
new car every once in a while, and a house, or two.
As for children... one boy and two grand kids.

Now tell us how many children you have fathered?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 7:00:57 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 15:36:51 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 4:50:54 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
> >> >> biking courage and experience.
> >> >
> >> >If you had done bike camping, you would know you are wrong.
> >> Bad assumption.
> >
> >Hmm. You're saying you wouldn't know you were wrong even if you _had_ done some bike
> >camping? OK, that's more reasonable than most of what you've written.
> >
> >> >And organizing a multi-hundred
> >> >rider event certainly does require experience and knowledge about cycling.
> >> Nonsense, but it might require a desire to tell others what to do.
> >
> >It sounds like you're guessing based on zero experience.You're certainly being very closed mouth
> >about your actual experience. Please tell us about the invitational bike rides you've organized.
> >Did yours ever win a national award? (Mine did, from the League of American Bicyclists.)
>
> <SNICKER> I don't play follow the leader.. I ride to get away from
> people, especially those kinds of people.

And I'm sure lots of people are grateful!

> >In fact, please tell us about the organized century rides you've attended. If you did have experience,
> >you'd know there's not much "telling people what to do" involved. There is lots of work choosing good
> >routes, marking routes, providing maps, organizing lunch and snack stops, providing support repairs, etc.

> >People choose whether or not to do the ride, whether or not to follow the route precisely, etc. and are
> >glad for the support. They are happy enough that they pay money for the privilege of riding the route.
> I want nothing to do with anybody that needs some organizer to plan
> their ride.

Hah! Says the guy who rides only on bike paths, where not only the route but the entire facility is planned
by bureaucrats!

SUCH a timid fellow!

- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Thailand is left side drive. Did not know that. Thought just England, Japan, and the English colonies were left side. Except Canada colony. They figured out the right side of the road to drive on.

[Joy Beeson]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
> riding on public roads and highways must be banned!

I was told that the state of New York attempted exaclty that, and a
legislator invited to speak at a meeting of the Mohawk-Hudson Wheelmen
expected her audience to break out in cheers at the announcement.

That was just before the MHW got a government-relations committee.

But the meeting at which I heard that rumor was well over thirty years
ago, and the event was history then; I've probably gotten the details
wrong.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Hmmmm. Are the hikers who walk the 2000 miles of the Appalachian Trail considered to be real campers by you? I guess they are real campers since they are walking. But what about the Adventure Cycling Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail. Its about 3000 miles long from Canada down to Mexico. Its 2100 miles of unpaved dirt/gravel roads, 60 miles of singletrack, 950 miles of blacktop, and 50 miles of bike trails. I am sure in many parts of this route the bikers are far from any civilization and must carry all camping gear and cook their own food. And find water in creeks. Are they also excluded from being called real campers?

My bike camping has been in state parks mostly. Bathrooms and shower facilities. And buy food in town at the store or restaurant. But I carried all my camping gear on my bike. Paved roads only.

[John B.]

Well... if you drive an ox team you are on the left side - the near
side - and it makes sense if that is the side closest to the edge of
the road, rather than out in the middle of the road (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

I guess I'd have to ask, "What is Camping?" The first guy to ride a
bicycle across the U.S., in 1884, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens
who carried a spare pair of socks, a spare shirt, an "overcoat" and a
pistol.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 21:46:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"

If they're not being supported..

> I guess they are real campers since they are walking. But what about the Adventure Cycling Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail. Its about 3000 miles long from Canada down to Mexico. Its 2100 miles of unpaved dirt/gravel roads, 60 miles of singletrack, 950 miles of blacktop, and 50 miles of bike trails. I am sure in many parts of this route the bikers are far from any civilization and must carry all camping gear and cook their own food. And find water in creeks. Are they also excluded from being called real campers?

I guess I'd call it camping when they are more than a day's ride or
walk from civilazation and have no support.

>My bike camping has been in state parks mostly. Bathrooms and shower facilities. And buy food in town at the store or restaurant. But I carried all my camping gear on my bike. Paved roads only.
>

My 'camping' gear on my Florida Key's ride consisted of a little one
man tent and a small pan for morning coffee. Gotta have that morning
coffee. Collect a little firewood and kindling before going to sleep.
Pan coffee is fast and easy. Learned it frrom my Grandpa who also
taught me how to shoot, hunt, fish, and make whiskey.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 18:46:07 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski

It's so obvious that people who go on, and even pay for group rides do
so for the social aspects. That and the fact that they assume that all
their non-riding needs will be taken care of.

I also note that camping on a bicycle is what real campers call a
weenie roast.

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>since you've already noted at least sympathy (if not outright support) for trump. *

For the record. I've never been a big fan of Trump, but I did approve
of what he did as President, and I did vote for him. Once because I
couldn't Stomach Hillary, and once because I couldn't stomach Biden. I
did not approve of how he left office nor the loonies that invaded the
Capitol, but I've yet to see any evidense that Trump was involved in
the invasion. I'm a registered Republican and I often wear a Blue
Lives Matter cap and always carry a gun on my bike rides and when I
have to visit any city. I reject the propaganda from both sides. I
favor Trump's policy on closing the border. I reject the Biden
nonsense about Trump voters being terrorists. I've witnessed some
BLM/Antifi rioting and I once backed down one of them when they got in
my face and demanded that I say some crook's name.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

If you actually thought "camping add[s] nothing to anyone's biking courage and experience. ", you wouldn't have written "Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and lots of tools. ", because that's exactly what bike packers do. But now we see you're engaging in hair-splitting and goal-post shifting - here's a clue, that doesn't work here except with rubes like kunich. Claiming that "real" camping isn't possible on a bike is really quite ignorant and arrogant, about the same as your arrogance regarding people who like to participate in group rides.

> > They both do, and quite dramatically. Such activities contribute _greatly_ to ones cycling acumen. If someone wanted to talk to me about handling or repairing a bike under difficult conditions, I would certainly pay more attention to an experienced bike-packer than someone who rides a three-wheeler on a paved bike path. I have a great deal of respect for someone who can ride for a hundred miles in hilly terrain on a touring bike loaded with camping gear, especially in inclement weather. That's not to imply that I _don't_ respect the bike-path-trike-rider, I respect anyone who gets out on an HPV, but to claim that bikepacking and organizing events "adds nothing" is completely wrong.
> Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts
> carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than
> having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and
> lots of tools. Camping is a skill I learned as child. The knowledge is
> knowing what to bring and how to use it. Real camping, BTW, is never
> going to be done where you can ride a bicycle.

oh, please Great Arbiter Of All That Is True and Accurate, tell us what constitutes "real" camping and why isn't that possible on a bicycle. I would suggest if you think remote wilderness camping isn't doable on a bike, you don't have enough cycling experience to comment on such things (https://bikepacking.com/plog/easy-days-hard-days/)

> > Organizing group rides takes an understanding of the audience and the goals. Picking courses, setting up rest stops, sometimes mobile support and coordinating/enforcing marshals at busy intersections and first responders all take an understanding of the activity of cycling in general and each event adds to experienced gained in the sport. Take it a step further and promote USAC races - which I have a great deal of experience in. The difficulties increase by an order of magnitude when dealing with USAC officials, scoring, and the more-than-occasional 32-year-old cat 5 wannbe puke that threatens to sue (and even physical violence) because he got scored second for the $5 prize in the half-way prime. It's called "giving back". You should try it sometime. I have little respect for people who show up at these events and denigrate the volunteer standing on a remote corner of the course wearing an orange vest.
>
> I, on the other hand, have little respect for those who play follow
> the leader on bicycles.

Says the guy who trucks his trike to a bike path and follows a prescribed route. I was also quite amused at your ironic comment to Frank "<SNICKER> I don't play follow the leader. I ride to get away from people, especially those kinds of people."

<SNICKER> Sure, because a public bike path is the BEST place to get away from people who want to follow a planned route. That right there is what we call "tommy logic"....

> >> >Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
> >> >really are more than mine.
> >> <SNORT> I'm not the least bit interested in your, or anyone else's
> >> evaluation of my "courage and experience, nor am I interested in you
> >> beyond my current evaluation of you as a loudmouth blowhard.
> >>
> >> >- Frank Krygowski
> >>
> >> Why is it that leftist loons are always so eager to get at other's
> >> personal information?
> >
> >Very clearly, you haven't been paying much attention to tom and andre. They are the only ones here who demanded that I tell them what I do for a living, if I'm married (they both have some sort of bizarre homoerotic fantasy about me), how many kids I have, how old I am - no one else here has made any such demands. So this hypothetical of yours that 'only leftist loons' seem to do it is very clearly proven wrong in this forum, by the two loudest and most arrogant right-wingers we have.
> >
> >I also notice you post under an anonymous handle. I don't care, the vast majority here don't. The exceptions are - you guessed it - tom and andre. They both regularly criticize me for posting anonymously. "The anonymous coward zencycle" is one of their favorites, claiming that anyone posting anonymously is a coward and unworthy of human dignity. Tommy likes to follow it up with threats of violence. He regularly threatens to 'cave [enter name here] skull in', 'break [enter name here] legs'. Of course I'm guessing their hypocrisy will be on full display in your case, since you've already noted at least sympathy (if not outright support) for trump. *
>
> Actually, all I did was correct some inaccurate politcal propaganda
> >BTW - Very few bicycle-related discussion gets started in this forum without one of those two turning it into a personal attack within the first few responses. Here are a couple of recent classic examples:
> >
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/tuLzyUUoN6c/m/_Qz5o5VAAAAJ
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/IFISJQJ6voU/m/vNGasPEpBgAJ
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qfAQlQyDvJQ/m/LT0zABlKBgAJ
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/-0vf-tuaAQAJ
> >
> >* I haven't read any of your political contributions, and I don't _intend_ to.
> I'll keep political contributions limited to shredding other's
> political contributions. I have no need to politic here, but I'll
> challenge political nonsense.

Ah, I see, you're the "live and let live type" (https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/mmxzneaxsdE/m/inVUvLM2AQAJ) who won't allow other to hold a different opinion - congratulations, you zipped right past 'tommy logic' into the full on delusional 'andre world'.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
> I also note that camping on a bicycle is what real campers call a
> weenie roast.

Bullshit

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:

That was an odd little rant, but I respect it. FWIW - I've never felt the need to carry a weapon on a bike, or while visiting any city, or anywhere else really. I can't imagine what it must be to go through life being that afraid of everything - and yes, I've been to most major cities in the US as well as quite a few outside the US. I live just outside of Boston in Haverhill, a small city of ~70K with a sizable lower-income demographic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haverhill,_Massachusetts#Demographics, per capita income ~$25K, hardly a wealthy town consider the cost of living here), and one town over from Lawrence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence,_Massachusetts#Demographics) which has a sizable illegal immigrant population and a permanent state police gang task force station.. I'm not afraid to go there at night, either. They have a few decent night clubs.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 03:07:21 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

A quick look at that site tells me that those guys probably had
support. I note most of the photos are around primitive roads. If I'm
wrong, I'll be happy to amend my earlier comment, but still, it's a
group event. Not my thing.

>> > Organizing group rides takes an understanding of the audience and the goals. Picking courses, setting up rest stops, sometimes mobile support and coordinating/enforcing marshals at busy intersections and first responders all take an understanding of the activity of cycling in general and each event adds to experienced gained in the sport. Take it a step further and promote USAC races - which I have a great deal of experience in. The difficulties increase by an order of magnitude when dealing with USAC officials, scoring, and the more-than-occasional 32-year-old cat 5 wannbe puke that threatens to sue (and even physical violence) because he got scored second for the $5 prize in the half-way prime. It's called "giving back". You should try it sometime. I have little respect for people who show up at these events and denigrate the volunteer standing on a remote corner of the course wearing an orange vest.
>>
>> I, on the other hand, have little respect for those who play follow
>> the leader on bicycles.
>
>Says the guy who trucks his trike to a bike path and follows a prescribed route. I was also quite amused at your ironic comment to Frank "<SNICKER> I don't play follow the leader. I ride to get away from people, especially those kinds of people."

Group riders play follow the leader, although I could also call it,
"mother may I."

><SNICKER> Sure, because a public bike path is the BEST place to get away from people who want to follow a planned route. That right there is what we call "tommy logic"....

They are a good place to get away from people where I ride. I've often
gone 10/15 miles without seeing another person, except far off in the
distance. I once rode 50 round trip miles on the Van Fleet trail (look
it up) and didn't encounter another human. Lots of critters, though. I
don't mind critters. Sadly, that was a few years back. More recently
I've seen for or five other riders on that trip.

Now I know there are so called "mup" trails, but they are where there
are already a lot of people. I've occasionally ridden such trails and
have been forced off the road by "groupers" who are too busy gossiping
to watch where they're going. One of favorite rides involves a short
section of such a trail. I'm glad to get beyond that stretch. Once I
encountered a bunch of groupers on that section, all in the same color
shirts, blocking the entire path so they could hear their
"mother-my-I" instructions.

[Catrike Rider]

I'll bet those bicycle "campers" bring a little gas fired burner to
cook with.

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 03:27:32 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"

A few years back I encountered a thug blocking my way. He was in a
wilderness area known for homeless people. I charged him and he
stepped away, grabbing and ripping my shirt as I passed. My wife said
"From now on, you'll be carrying a gun." Sitting 6 inches off the
ground puts a person in a vulnerable position, and sadly, at 78 years
old, I'm no longer able to quickly jump up off the Catrike. I'll
actually pass out if I don't go about it slowly and carefully, and
yeah, that's happened.

[AMuzi]

heh heh definition depends on where you are and with whom
you associate!

https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2019/05/231566/camp-fashion-gay-culture-drag-lgbtq-history

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

Yet you give your opinions on bicycling when you ride only on a tricycle, only on a bike/pedestrian path?
Sorry if nobody is impressed.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:

> ... I'm a registered Republican and I often wear a Blue

> Lives Matter cap and always carry a gun on my bike rides and when I
> have to visit any city.

A few years ago my friends and I attended a concert of folk music in a very large city. We ran
into a guitarist we knew and had occasionally played with. He informed us that he was carrying a
handgun.

To a folk music concert!

This gentleman was so obese that he couldn't hold a guitar in a normal manner. He had a special
stand that supported the guitar away from his immense belly. He also stopped playing with us
because he had personality conflicts with people.

Ever after, that's been the mental image I get of gun fetishists. Not a muscular Rambo "good guy
with a gun." Instead, slightly obnoxious, physically soft, overweight and very, very timid.

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 6:45:35 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 03:07:21 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I would suggest if you think remote wilderness camping isn't doable on a bike, you don't have enough cycling experience to comment on such things (https://bikepacking.com/plog/easy-days-hard-days/)
> A quick look at that site tells me that those guys probably had
> support. I note most of the photos are around primitive roads. If I'm
> wrong, I'll be happy to amend my earlier comment, but still, it's a
> group event. Not my thing.

First, you're wrong. Second, "not my thing" is fine. You're a person of very limited physical
capability, so many, many activities will be "not your thing." That should not tempt you to
denigrate the activities that others are capable of.

About support: In all the thousands of miles of bike touring and camping I've done, my family
and I had "support" for just one week long event. The route was marked, campgrounds were
arranged and a truck carried our camping gear. Every other tour I did was self organized and
self contained, up to and including the 4000 mile trip.

When you can say you match that, your opinions will get my respect.

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 08:14:49 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski

<CHUCKLE> I probably have more miles on two wheelers on roads and
highways than you. I know I have more experience "camping," along with
many other activities that pencil pushing dweeb like you could never
accomplish.

>Sorry if nobody is impressed.

Unlike you folks with low self esteem, impressing a bunch of strangers
is not something I've ever tried to do.

By the way, I'm laughing mercilessly again at your foolish claim that
you speak for everybody.

>- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

You ran into a guy with a gun, he was fat, and he's stuck in your
memory? That's your story in a bicycle forum?

[Catrike Rider]

<LOL> So, you pre-arranged campgrounds? Did you pre-arrange
campgrounds on this 4000 mile trip, too? Did you carry a little camp
stove to cook your weenies?

>When you can say you match that, your opinions will get my respect.

Good greif, Frankie, what on Earth makes you think getting your
"respect' is anywhere on my todo list?

>- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

Like cyclists, firearm owners come in every shape and size
with widely variant political opinions and skill levels.
They greatly outnumber cyclists so variance is built in.

including women:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10865783/West-Virginia-woman-praised-using-pistol-shoot-dead-gunman-AR-15.html

including pregnant women:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/home-invader-fatally-shot-florida-pregnant-woman-ar-15-n1076026

[Frank Krygowski]

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 11:33:24 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 08:14:49 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> > ... you give your opinions on bicycling when you ride only on a tricycle, only on a bike/pedestrian path?

>
> <CHUCKLE> I probably have more miles on two wheelers on roads and
> highways than you.

If so, why not answer my questions?

How long did you commute by bike?
What's your longest one-day ride?
How many century or century-plus rides have you done?
How many states have you ridden in? How many countries? How many cities?
How many bike tours have you completed?
What's your experience road racing? How about time trialing?

I can ask more relevant questions. But so far all you've mentioned is riding a tricycle on a MUP,
because you're afraid of traffic. That gives us no reason to even consider your opinions.

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

My mother and Grandmother were crack shots with a .22 rifle. My
Grandma also had a Winchester 94 30.30 and a Colt .45 Long. My
daughter has a US Army marksmanship badge.

[Frank Krygowski]

As I've mentioned before, I appreciate the thoughtful use of normal curves. Every normal curve
has two tails, and at those extremes there are very unusual cases or events. Those unusual cases don't
invalidate the vast majority at the center of the curve.

Among the handgun carriers I've met and talked with, the most common characteristic has
been fear, or timidity. I think that's the characteristic that defines the bulk of handgun carriers.
"I'm afraid, so I'm taking a gun with me."

I can give other examples - like the woman working as an EMT who told us "I take calls in some really bad
neighborhoods!" Well, my wife worked as a therapist, visiting people from wealthy suburbs to rural zones
to those same inner city neighborhoods. She never even thought of carrying a handgun.

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 08:53:11 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski

<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 11:33:24 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 08:14:49 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > ... you give your opinions on bicycling when you ride only on a tricycle, only on a bike/pedestrian path?
>>
>> <CHUCKLE> I probably have more miles on two wheelers on roads and
>> highways than you.
>
>If so, why not answer my questions?

I enjoy thumbing my nose at you.

>How long did you commute by bike?
>What's your longest one-day ride?
>How many century or century-plus rides have you done?
>How many states have you ridden in? How many countries? How many cities?
>How many bike tours have you completed?
>What's your experience road racing? How about time trialing?
>
>I can ask more relevant questions. But so far all you've mentioned is riding a tricycle on a MUP,
>because you're afraid of traffic. That gives us no reason to even consider your opinions.

<SHRUG> Reason away.... Be my guest.. Imagine wharever you want about
me. Imagine that I'm just like the fat guitar player you spoke about
if it blows your hair back. Imagine, that I really am him. I'm
actually pretty good on a guitar.

>- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

As if you have the ability to evaluate other's "characteristics," or
even the ability to recognize a "handgun carrier, let alone talk with
them.

[Catrike Rider]

Now that I think about it, if you really did talk some gun carrying
guy about gun(s), he/she probably was a pussy. Real defense carrying
people don't ever identify themselves as carrying, not even to friends
who suspect they might be carrying. I wouldn't do it here unless I was
sure I was anonymous. When I carry, I carry concealed and I would
continue that way even if it was not required, as it is here in
Florida. People who open carry under normal circimstacnes are called
kaboys, and are to be avoided. I doubt anyone has ever spotted my gun
unless they were actually looking for it. If someone other than a LEO
asked if I was carrying, I'd simply walk away. It's a little more
obvious on the Catrike because I don't carry it on me and yet it must
be within easy reach. I suppose someone might wonder why I have a sock
hanging over one of water bottles. I once had a park ranger ask if
what he was looking at was what he thought it was. I said, "that
depends on what you think it is." He just smiled and went on his way.
Yeah, I do love living in Florida..

[Tom Kunich]

Frank is violently afraid of guns. So anything he has to say about them you can simply write off to fear so great that it is sickness.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I think we basically have another andre on our hands, except that unfortunately this one isn't nearly as intelligent.

[Catrike Rider]

Naw, I'm probably not going to stick around very long. The real ship
of fools is in the White House and they're almost too much fun.
They're out celebrating today while the stock market is taking another
shit.

[Tom Kunich]

If there's one thing that Flunky cannot stand, it is someone speaking their mind. He wants to silence anyone that disagrees with him and if I ever discover who he really is he is in very deep shit. I will publish his identity to every bicycle group on the internet. Him and Pencil-neck Seaton are loud mouth liars. Flunky likes to pretend that he rides a bike but if he did why would he have the absolute need to use a pseudonym and hide his identity? Seaton has described his bikes. They are not bad bikes but they are not racing bikes and never were. So why the pretense that he is some sort of expert racer?

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 3:48:35 AM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 9:55:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
> > On 9/11/2022 1:59 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > > On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> > > <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
> > >>
> > >> https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
> > >>
> > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > >
> > > Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
> > > seldom do it anymore.
> > As soon as the author quoted John Forester she lost all credibility.
> That's a fact-free , anti-intellectual response! Why not deal with the factual portions of the article?
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
Because such general acceptance as Forester ever had he got under false pretences, which are now known, so that he has zero acceptability among thoughtful cyclists. You have a lot to do with the poor repute in which Forester is held on RBT, Franki-boy.
>
Andre Jute
No British snobs wanted here.
>

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 7:35:48 PM UTC+1, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 13:30:40 -0400, Catrike Rider
> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> ><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:

> >>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
> >>> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
> >>> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
> >>> >
> >>> >- Frank Krygowski
> >>> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
> >>> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
> >>> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
> >>> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
> >>
> >>That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
> >>to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
> >>
> >>> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
> >>> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
> >>
> >>OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)
> >
> ><CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
> >lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
> >because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
> >couldn't come up witha response..
> >

> >>How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
> >>by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
> >>How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
> >>roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
> >>foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
> >>100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
> >>How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?
> >
> >

> ><LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
> >biking courage and experience.

> By the way, I really dislike the group ride organizers who convince a
> bunch of follow-the-leader group thinkers to run along beside each
> other so they can gossip and not bother watching where they are going.
> I expect the organizers imagine themselves as leaders of some sort.
> People who thirst for the attention they get while leading the pack.

> >>Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
> >>really are more than mine.
> >
> ><SNORT> I'm not the least bit interested in your, or anyone else's
> >evaluation of my "courage and experience, nor am I interested in you
> >beyond my current evaluation of you as a loudmouth blowhard.
> >
> >>- Frank Krygowski
> >
> >Why is it that leftist loons are always so eager to get at other's
> >personal information?
>

Control.
>

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 8:28:30 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > >> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> > >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
> > >> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
> > >> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
> > >> >
> > >> >- Frank Krygowski
> > >> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
> > >> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
> > >> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
> > >> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
> > >
> > >That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
> > >to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
> > >
> > >> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
> > >> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
> > >
> > >OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)
> > <CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
> > lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
> > because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
> > couldn't come up witha response..

> Bad assumption.

> > >How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
> > >by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
> > >How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
> > >roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
> > >foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
> > >100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
> > >How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?
> > <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
> > biking courage and experience.

> If you had done bike camping, you would know you are wrong. And organizing a multi-hundred

> rider event certainly does require experience and knowledge about cycling.

> > >Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
> > >really are more than mine.
> > <SNORT> I'm not the least bit interested in your, or anyone else's

> > evaluation of my "courage and experience...
>
> Gosh, a day ago you were guessing you knew as much as I do!
>
> I will concede, you probably know more than I do about one aspect of cycling: hauling a tricycle
> around in a pickup truck and unloading it to ride back and forth on a bike path. But your lack of
> detailed response is adequate proof you know much less than I do about cycling.
>
> Again, perhaps that's fine for you. Do whatever it takes to keep yourself moving. But don't pretend to
> any real expertise regarding cycling.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
There's shorthand for all that genteel outrage, Franki-boy. It's often called "cocks on the table."
>

[Tom Kunich]

As I recall, John Forester wrote a book and on bicycle transportation and was therefore worshiped as a bicycling God. He seem OK to me but he was someone who spend the majority of his life in Berkeley and suffered from all of the extreme left foibles. He knew it all and no one else had a say in it. I liked him but it isn't as if I ever was able to get any rides with him since by the time I met him he was old and slow.

Today I find myself old and slow but save for the stupid six, I respect the opinions of others. Lou and I can disagree and yet respect each other. Next time I descend the north side of Palomares I will tell him what speed I recorded. Our European members are far more bicycle oriented than most of the Americans I know. I can no longer go on tours or race. My medication for the concussion is too limiting. But I CAN do all of the rides in the bay area and that is a lot of rides.

[Andre Jute]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 11:36:53 PM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 4:50:54 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:

> > On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > >>
> > >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
> > >> biking courage and experience.
> > >
> > >If you had done bike camping, you would know you are wrong.

> > Bad assumption.
> Hmm. You're saying you wouldn't know you were wrong even if you _had_ done some bike
> camping? OK, that's more reasonable than most of what you've written.

> > >And organizing a multi-hundred
> > >rider event certainly does require experience and knowledge about cycling.

> > Nonsense, but it might require a desire to tell others what to do.
> It sounds like you're guessing based on zero experience.You're certainly being very closed mouth
> about your actual experience. Please tell us about the invitational bike rides you've organized.
> Did yours ever win a national award? (Mine did, from the League of American Bicyclists.)
>

> In fact, please tell us about the organized century rides you've attended. If you did have experience,
> you'd know there's not much "telling people what to do" involved. There is lots of work choosing good
> routes, marking routes, providing maps, organizing lunch and snack stops, providing support repairs, etc.
> People choose whether or not to do the ride, whether or not to follow the route precisely, etc. and are
> glad for the support. They are happy enough that they pay money for the privilege of riding the route.

> > Actually, I was assuming I knew more than you. I'm still pretty sure I
> > do.
> It shouldn't be very hard to explain why, if you actually have relevant experience. Your silence (except
> for insults) is very telling.

> > >I will concede, you probably know more than I do about one aspect of cycling: hauling a tricycle
> > >around in a pickup truck and unloading it to ride back and forth on a bike path. But your lack of
> > >detailed response is adequate proof you know much less than I do about cycling.

> > Ah yes, you gave me detailed orders and I told you to shove them up
> > your ass.
> You told us nothing because you've got nothing. If you knew anything, you'd have proven it by now.
> Get back on your socialist-provided bike path and pottle away. But do be careful! For some people,
> riding is very, very scary!
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
Here we go again, Kreepy Krygowski trying to set himself up as a temple dog. He never learns.
>

[Tom Kunich]

I think that is beyond Frank. He will have to ask John what that means and John won't be able to find it on Google.

[Andre Jute]

Heh-heh! For an amusing mental exercise, try to imagine Franki-boy as one of the boys. His arrogant manner will get him beaten up three times a day.
>

[Catrike Rider]

Indeed. Leftists are always eager to tell others what to do and they
get angry if you don't obey. Some also get angry when you laugh and
make fun of them. Leftists are usually very thin skinned. It's easy
for me to spot that because they apparently believe they hurt my
feelings by trying to make fun of me. I love that. They're telling me
exactly what upsets them. They're trying to hurt me by doing what
hurts them. Damned good fun.


Leftists do what they're told to do and they elect people who tell
them what to do.

[John B.]

I like that.

You met a fat guy with a gun and therefore gun fetishists are fat
slobs.

I met an enthusiastic bicyclist right here on RBT who is an ignorant
braggart and liar, thus bicycle riders are ignorant, braggarts who
never tell the truth.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Catrike Rider]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2022 05:41:50 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Well, hell, all of us Trump voters are terrorists, aren't we? Biden
says I'm more dangerous than the Taliban. I'll drink to that.

[John B.]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 07:54:41 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/13/2022 1:36 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 21:46:39 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 3:50:45 PM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:

>>>>>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:

>>>>>>>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
>>>>>>>>> are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
>>>>>>>>> That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
>>>>>>>> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
>>>>>>>> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
>>>>>>>> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
>>>>>>> to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
>>>>>>>> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)
>>>>>> <CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
>>>>>> lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
>>>>>> because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
>>>>>> couldn't come up witha response..
>>>>>

>>>>> Franks a bit of a curmudgeon here, but at the end of the day he's one of the more worthy individuals to have technical discussion with unlike certain other individuals that claim to be in the upper echelon of cycling technology but can't figure out a fucking quick link (https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/Z4vNkmV1BgAJ). As far as your alleged political debating prowess, he might have sensed you gravitating toward the RBT magatard side of the spectrum along with andre the useless - who continues to use this forum as nothing but his own personal political toilet - and RBT's own Walter Mitty (aka tommy the liar) - who has come up with such gems as 'there was no recession before obama took office' and 'i couldn't figure out why my bike wouldn't shift until I bought the special campy non-stretch shifting cables' (the list is nearly endless) - I think it's far more likely frank would rather disengage than perform an exercise akin to wrestling with a pig.*

>>>>>
>>>>>>> How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
>>>>>>> by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
>>>>>>> How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
>>>>>>> roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
>>>>>>> foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
>>>>>>> 100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
>>>>>>> How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
>>>>>> biking courage and experience.
>>>>>

>>>>> Clearly you've never done either.
>>>> Clearly you don't have a clue.
>>>>> They both do, and quite dramatically. Such activities contribute _greatly_ to ones cycling acumen. If someone wanted to talk to me about handling or repairing a bike under difficult conditions, I would certainly pay more attention to an experienced bike-packer than someone who rides a three-wheeler on a paved bike path. I have a great deal of respect for someone who can ride for a hundred miles in hilly terrain on a touring bike loaded with camping gear, especially in inclement weather. That's not to imply that I _don't_ respect the bike-path-trike-rider, I respect anyone who gets out on an HPV, but to claim that bikepacking and organizing events "adds nothing" is completely wrong.
>>>> Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts
>>>> carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than
>>>> having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and
>>>> lots of tools. Camping is a skill I learned as child. The knowledge is
>>>> knowing what to bring and how to use it. Real camping, BTW, is never
>>>> going to be done where you can ride a bicycle.
>>>
>>> Hmmmm. Are the hikers who walk the 2000 miles of the Appalachian Trail considered to be real campers by you? I guess they are real campers since they are walking. But what about the Adventure Cycling Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail. Its about 3000 miles long from Canada down to Mexico. Its 2100 miles of unpaved dirt/gravel roads, 60 miles of singletrack, 950 miles of blacktop, and 50 miles of bike trails. I am sure in many parts of this route the bikers are far from any civilization and must carry all camping gear and cook their own food. And find water in creeks. Are they also excluded from being called real campers?
>>>
>>> My bike camping has been in state parks mostly. Bathrooms and shower facilities. And buy food in town at the store or restaurant. But I carried all my camping gear on my bike. Paved roads only.
>>
>> I guess I'd have to ask, "What is Camping?" The first guy to ride a
>> bicycle across the U.S., in 1884, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens
>> who carried a spare pair of socks, a spare shirt, an "overcoat" and a
>> pistol.
>>
>
>
>heh heh definition depends on where you are and with whom
>you associate!
>
>https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2019/05/231566/camp-fashion-gay-culture-drag-lgbtq-history

(:-) I think they was a different sort of "camp" (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

I have a couple bike frames that may have been used as race bikes by some team or another in the past. Not my personal bikes. But the models I own. Cannondale CAAD9, Litespeed Tuscany, Ridley Excalibur. At one time they were towards the upper end, above the middle, for their manufacturers. As for claiming I am some sort of expert racer? I would like you to produce a link of me saying that. I did participate in three different races decades ago. Two were road races, and one was a criterium. I got third place in the criterium. Still have the trophy. Do you have any trophies Tommy? I used my CAAD9 for the third place victory. Chorus and Centaur 9 speed components on that bike. Mario Cipollini used a Cannondale CAAD4 at the Tour de France in 1999. So my CAAD9 definitely has some racing history in its background.

As for using a pseudonym and hiding his identity, what do you think about your new best friend Catrike?

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Sorry, forgot to respond to this in the prior post. But, Tommy calling me a liar? That is rich.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:16:31 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 3:00:17 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 3:48:35 AM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 9:55:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
> > > > On 9/11/2022 1:59 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > > > > On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> > > > > <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
> > > > >>
> > > > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > > > >
> > > > > Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
> > > > > seldom do it anymore.
> > > > As soon as the author quoted John Forester she lost all credibility.
> > > That's a fact-free , anti-intellectual response! Why not deal with the factual portions of the article?
> > >
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > >
> > Because such general acceptance as Forester ever had he got under false pretences, which are now known, so that he has zero acceptability among thoughtful cyclists. You have a lot to do with the poor repute in which Forester is held on RBT, Franki-boy.
> > >
> > Andre Jute
> > No British snobs wanted here.
> > >
> As I recall, John Forester wrote a book and on bicycle transportation and was therefore worshiped as a bicycling God. He seem OK to me but he was someone who spend the majority of his life in Berkeley and suffered from all of the extreme left foibles. He knew it all and no one else had a say in it. I liked him but it isn't as if I ever was able to get any rides with him since by the time I met him he was old and slow.
>
> Today I find myself old and slow but save for the stupid six, I respect the opinions of others. Lou and I can disagree and yet respect each other.

Not to speak for Lou, whom I do not know personally. But I am very doubtful Lou has any respect at all for you Tommy. Just like the rest of us here on RBT have no respect for you Tommy.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

No. Misinterpretation by you. Joe Biden clearly said the MAGA extremists of the Republican party were the dangerous ones. Obviously, sadly, others also chose to vote for Trump in 2016 and 2020. It is very similar to the somewhat recent abortion vote in Kansas. A vast majority of Kansans voted for Trump instead of Biden in 2020. Yet on the abortion vote, outlawing abortion in Kansas, a vast majority voted to not do that at all. Yet the Republicans politicians foam and froth at the mouth about the evil of abortion. Clearly, not all Republicans support that extreme view of abortion. A majority of Kansas, a heavily Republican state, think abortion should remain legal and not be outlawed. Therefore, it is possible to have Trump voters who are not the extremist MAGAs.

[Ralph Barone]

Well, if your average Taliban member wanted to kill an American, they would
need a passport and an airline ticket before they could start. You, on the
other hand, just have to pull your gun out of your bottle cage and start
firing.

[John B.]

Now if Trump could just get himself imprisoned he could write a book
and he could entitle it "My Struggle". But I do see a problem in
burning down the Capital Building as it is all stone and concrete I
believe.

Then the "Enabling Law" and he's set to go.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 17:58:43 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:16:31 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 3:00:17 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
>> > On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 3:48:35 AM UTC+1, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > > On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 9:55:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
>> > > > On 9/11/2022 1:59 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> > > > > On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> > > > > <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> - Frank Krygowski
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>> > > > > seldom do it anymore.
>> > > > As soon as the author quoted John Forester she lost all credibility.
>> > > That's a fact-free , anti-intellectual response! Why not deal with the factual portions of the article?
>> > >
>> > > - Frank Krygowski
>> > >
>> > Because such general acceptance as Forester ever had he got under false pretences, which are now known, so that he has zero acceptability among thoughtful cyclists. You have a lot to do with the poor repute in which Forester is held on RBT, Franki-boy.
>> > >
>> > Andre Jute
>> > No British snobs wanted here.
>> > >
>> As I recall, John Forester wrote a book and on bicycle transportation and was therefore worshiped as a bicycling God. He seem OK to me but he was someone who spend the majority of his life in Berkeley and suffered from all of the extreme left foibles. He knew it all and no one else had a say in it. I liked him but it isn't as if I ever was able to get any rides with him since by the time I met him he was old and slow.
>>
>> Today I find myself old and slow but save for the stupid six, I respect the opinions of others. Lou and I can disagree and yet respect each other.
>
>Not to speak for Lou, whom I do not know personally. But I am very doubtful Lou has any respect at all for you Tommy. Just like the rest of us here on RBT have no respect for you Tommy.

But, but, but .... Tommy is such an expert on everything under the
sun. Doesn't he tell us that? After all he recounts meetings with
Company Presidents and even a bloke aiming at the position as
President of the U.S. He must be an important guy.

And, just think, all you have to do is agree with him and he will
remove your name from his "kill file" and you will become one of the
anointed and allowed to correspond with this illustrious person.
--
Cheers,

John B.