Basso

[Tom Kunich]

My shop guy was once upon a time the Team 711 mechanic so not only did he recognize my Basso but he was familiar with the German racing team it came from.

I was correct, the threads on the idiot bottom bracket were JIS standard and not Italian standard so he had to chase the threads with a real Italian tool and set the BB ends parallel. The happen to be tools so seldom used by a home mechanic that unless someone gives them to you they aren't worth buying.

After he finished, the new cups threaded in by hand except for the final two threads. This is due to the Never-Seize that fills the threads and then the cups are set by torque wrench.

Presently the bike is waiting for a new pair of handlebars.

So this gives John a chance to tell us all about his long a storied career as a marksman and a bicycle racer which gives him the knowledge of how to be a sniper and all about electric group sets. Do you suppose that he will ever see himself as other's do?

[John B.]

(:-) Just as long as they don't see me as they see you I'll be quite
happy (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Our Tommy boy writes:
"the threads on the idiot bottom bracket were JIS standard and not Italian standard"

Tommy, there is no such thing as Japanese Industrial Standard JIS threads for bottom brackets. You either made this up for no reason at all, or you do not understand that your Italian Basso frame has Italian bottom bracket threading. And your mechanic (the former 7-11 mechanic according to you) simply ran an Italian bottom bracket thread chaser through the bunged up threads to clean them up.

This article gives info on all the threading ever used on bicycle bottom brackets.
https://bikeraceinfo.com/tech/bottom-brackets.html

Tommy, why do you make up nonsense? If its to hide your ignorance, its not working.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Thursday, August 11, 2022 at 8:10:14 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> My shop guy was once upon a time the Team 711 mechanic so not only did he recognize my Basso but he was familiar with the German racing team it came from.
>
> I was correct, the threads on the idiot bottom bracket were JIS standard and not Italian standard so he had to chase the threads with a real Italian tool and set the BB ends parallel. The happen to be tools so seldom used by a home mechanic that unless someone gives them to you they aren't worth buying.

The JIS standard for bottom brackets applies to spindles, not threading, you fucking idiot. Perhaps you got that information from the same place you heard that Campy made a special non-stretch shifting cable. IT's a pity that RBTs Paragon of Truth and Accuracy is too much of a goddam hypocrite to help you prevent making a fool of yourself.

> After he finished, the new cups threaded in by hand except for the final two threads. This is due to the Never-Seize that fills the threads and then the cups are set by torque wrench.

No, that's not why.

> Presently the bike is waiting for a new pair of handlebars.
>
> So this gives John a chance to tell us all about his long a storied career as a marksman and a bicycle racer which gives him the knowledge of how to be a sniper and all about electric group sets.

"Tell you what; from now on when these idiots change the subject let's simply drop it right there? " - Tom Kunich

I think we all know which idiot constantly changes the subject.

> Do you suppose that he will ever see himself as other's do?

I'm sure he does. You and your jerk-off buddy are the only ones who see him as anything different.
Shut the fuck up tommy

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 17:10:12 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>My shop guy was once upon a time the Team 711 mechanic...

Interesting choice of words. "Once upon a time" is a common opening
line to a fairy tale. It is probably intended to warn the reader that
what follows is not real and a contrived fairy tale. For example:
"Once upon a time, there was a beautiful princess named Snow White."
is the opening line of Disney's "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs".

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 22:37:22 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 11, 2022 at 7:10:14 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I was correct, the threads on the idiot bottom bracket were JIS standard and not Italian standard so he had to chase the threads with a real Italian tool and set the BB ends parallel. The happen to be tools so seldom used by a home mechanic that unless someone gives them to you they aren't worth buying.

There's no way to square the ends of the bottom bracket assembly.
That's done by facing the "bottom bracket shell".

"Bottom Bracket Standards and Terminology"
<https://www.parktool.com/en-us/blog/repair-help/bottom-bracket-standards-and-terminology>
No mention of JIS thread standards.

>Our Tommy boy writes:
>"the threads on the idiot bottom bracket were JIS standard and not Italian standard"
>
>Tommy, there is no such thing as Japanese Industrial Standard JIS threads for bottom brackets. You either made this up for no reason at all, or you do not understand that your Italian Basso frame has Italian bottom bracket threading. And your mechanic (the former 7-11 mechanic according to you) simply ran an Italian bottom bracket thread chaser through the bunged up threads to clean them up.
>
>This article gives info on all the threading ever used on bicycle bottom brackets.
>https://bikeraceinfo.com/tech/bottom-brackets.html
>
>Tommy, why do you make up nonsense? If its to hide your ignorance, its not working.

There is a difference between square taper JIS and ISO bottom
brackets. However, the difference is in the spindle taper, not the
threads.
<https://www.velodrome.shop/square-taper-jis/iso/>

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, August 12, 2022 at 8:06:57 AM UTC-4, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 17:10:12 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >My shop guy was once upon a time the Team 711 mechanic...
>
> Interesting choice of words. "Once upon a time" is a common opening
> line to a fairy tale. It is probably intended to warn the reader that
> what follows is not real and a contrived fairy tale. For example:
> "Once upon a time, there was a beautiful princess named Snow White."
> is the opening line of Disney's "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs".
>

I was amused by that as well. I was more intrigued by the claim that tommy got a VC Frankfurt Radteam - Brügelmann Team Issue Basso. As far as I can find out, they rode Colnagos. VC Frankfurt Radteam - Brügelmann seemed to only exist for one year, 2004. IT doesn't seem that they were affiliated with VC Frankfurt 1883 (an amateur club). Info is sketchy, not enough to dispute tom (even though he's likely wrong)

[AMuzi]

uh, technically they are the same taper angle but different
sections.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

If you were to take a hammer and pound it into his head he still couldn't understand what is being said. He wishes to find fault and will invent it wherever necessary. I made the mistake of opening up my Gmail account and there was that ass Russell telling me that Shimano and Campagnolo weren't identical. Apparently that ass believes that when I say that the Shimano and Campagnolo 11 speed have the same spacing that means I'm saying that the freehub keying is the same. Just exactly how stupid can you get?

I suppose the real question is why people who have never done anything with their lives now want to pretend they're heroes. It isn't as if most people achieve great things with their lives and they have every right to be satisfied with having done a good job of what they have done. I was lucky to always be in the right spot at the right time. I did things that others would claim were impossible simply by not giving up. I was hired to program that poison gas detector because two other programmers couldn't do it. I was the only one to get suspicious that the PhD physicists were full of shit and work the detector hardware out from base principals and discover that they had given me entirely the wrong formula. And that was proven simply by the fact that my new program read the entire range of poison gas without error. Now, the way I see it is that Jeff has been trying to take credit for what I did because, Great God!, he has a degree. So there's nothing that I could do that he couldn't do better. And yet he has never done one thing with his entire life and his so precious degree. By this point in time hundreds of thousands of lives have been saved by my automation of PCR so that the blood banks could be kept clear of HIV. Jeff wants to take credit for that as well. After all, he made a ham radio repeater.

[John B.]

And, By Gorry! if you don't believe him just look right there on his
resume! See there? Right next to the tale of how he invented gravity.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Tommy, why are you responding to that correction I made of you in another thread, in this thread? Please try to keep the various thread separate. I forget your exact comments from the other thread. But I am sure you did insinuate that Campagnolo and Shimano cassettes fit on the same hub. I do not recall if you mentioned 11 speed cassettes or not.

Now, as far as 11 speed cassettes between Shimano and Campagnolo having the same spacing between cogs, no they do not have the exact same spacing. They are fairly close. And some people have made the comment that you can interchange the wheels between bikes with different shifting systems. Personally, I believe you should only use the same cassettes and shifting systems. No interchanging.

Here is a website listing all of the cog spacings. Shimano 11 speed appears to have 3.69 or 3.74mm between cogs. SRAM is 3.72mm. And Campagnolo is 3.76mm. All 11 speed. So apparently with bicycle shifting systems, with 11 speed, STI Shimano, whatever SRAM calls their shifters, and Campagnolo ERGO, cogs spaced 3.69, 3.74, 3.72, 3.76, all are close enough to be good enough for shifting purposes. But they are NOT the same spacing as you claim.

An engineer like Frank and Jeff and a couple others on this forum, and a machinist like John, would understand the meaning of "same spacing" as it relates to cog spacing. And understand why 3.69, 3.74, 3.72, and 3.76 is not same spacing. You Tommy, do not understand these things.

[Tom Kunich]

I don't know what the hell I did with my measurements. I ordered a stem for the Basso and then going down this morning and measuring the distance from the saddle center to the bar center was some 6 cm too long. The Basso does have a long top tube but I assumed that I had corrected stem length for that.

Now I think that I am going to go to a 26 mm bar and quill stem since the should be the easiest to size correctly.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 2:22:28 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I don't know what the hell I did with my measurements. I ordered a stem for the Basso and then going down this morning and measuring the distance from the saddle center to the bar center was some 6 cm too long. The Basso does have a long top tube but I assumed that I had corrected stem length for that.
>
> Now I think that I am going to go to a 26 mm bar and quill stem since the should be the easiest to size correctly.

There are 31.8mm clamp quill stems too. Not just 26.0 and 25.4mm. But they are a little hard to find.

https://www.amazon.com/Origin8-Pro-Fit-Stem-110mm/dp/B005D962QO/ref=asc_df_B005D962QO/?tag=&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312065280674&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17372780333730075063&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9018580&hvtargid=pla-569796053023&ref=&adgrpid=62425943472&th=1&psc=1

https://www.ebay.com/itm/351784121927?chn=ps&var=620701411480&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=620701411480_351784121927&targetid=&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9018580&poi=&campaignid=17950301476&mkgroupid=&rlsatarget=&abcId=9301082&merchantid=101810961&gclid=CjwKCAjw6fyXBhBgEiwAhhiZshXInO68QTguXxZ99KOyNHBULa9cG7e9sUJNqW_Q5zdCnxFNRAXWhhoCRNYQAvD_BwE

https://leygoodpastor.com/products/Velo-Orange-Quill-Stem-31-8mm-CLAMP-22-2-24tpi-Quill-100mm-Black?currency=USD&variant_sku_code=985227-0-0-0-0-0-0

[Tom Kunich]

It turns out that cabon bars with their deep airfoil like sections are simply too tiring to ride They end up holding your hands in a funny position and give you intense pains when you attempt to put your hands in the middle of the bar. So I have been trying to find 26 mm bars with cable slots and for my Basso which I didn't realize (it being from a racing team) had a longer than normal top tube. So I have to reduce the normal 110 mm stem to 80 or shorter (experimentation will tell) This will hold up the finishing an testing of the Basso. In the meantime, I ran across a like new Aliverti who was a builder that either worked for or built frames for De Rosa. I got it for a song so I got it for a song. I happen to have all the parts necessary to put together a third steel bike so that now the C50 is sure to be sold off after I get some of the others sold.

[AMuzi]

Looks like a classic Italian road bike.
https://deltavartigianacicli.blogspot.com/2016/05/aliverti-1980-anche-deltav-artigiana.html

Good for you

[Tom Kunich]

The one I found is late 90's from the looks of it. I has the same fine workmanship as the one you showed only the more modern features. I looks just like the De Rosa to me.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/19/2022 3:22 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I don't know what the hell I did with my measurements. I ordered a stem for the Basso and then going down this morning and measuring the distance from the saddle center to the bar center was some 6 cm too long.

_SO_ many problems!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/19/2022 9:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> It turns out that cabon bars with their deep airfoil like sections are simply too tiring to ride They end up holding your hands in a funny position and give you intense pains when you attempt to put your hands in the middle of the bar. So I have been trying to find 26 mm bars with cable slots and for my Basso which I didn't realize (it being from a racing team) had a longer than normal top tube. So I have to reduce the normal 110 mm stem to 80 or shorter (experimentation will tell) This will hold up the finishing an testing of the Basso. In the meantime, I ran across a like new Aliverti who was a builder that either worked for or built frames for De Rosa. I got it for a song so I got it for a song. I happen to have all the parts necessary to put together a third steel bike so that now the C50 is sure to be sold off after I get some of the others sold.

So much churning!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[William Crowell]

Churning bicycles can be a good thing, Frank, for a young & aspiring rider who wants to improve his equipment. For example, by buying and selling bikes on eBay and FB MP, my son has been able to work his way up from no bike to a Felt F65. That Felt bike sure is light compared to my old Paramount!

[Frank Krygowski]

Perhaps for some young riders that may be true. But what do you suppose
Tom is achieving? It seems every week he's acquiring a new frame or new
bike, and telling us that, finally, _this_ one will be wonderful.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Frank makes a practice of sticking his nose into other people's business. When Jobst was here, he spent all of his time kissing Jobst's ass and following Jobst's orders to dislike this person or that. Now without direction, he is withering and doesn't know it.

He doesn't personally change his bikes around? Fine, but it is none of his business if others do. He doesn't try any new components? Fine, but again, it is none of his business what others do. His comments would get his ass kicked into his brainpan in person so he makes these comments only with the safety of distance. He is a fool and no one can save him.

I have been building my knowledge base up again from utter chaos from that crash and concussion (I have even regained the somewhat disgusting memory of pushing my eyeball back into its socket) I have learned that the latest and greatest aren't all that great. Light bikes aren't bad, but their improvements simply do not replace the workmanship and feel of a finely crafted steel bike. Pro's couldn't achieve the sorts of speeds that they do with them? So what? I'm not a pro. An average speed difference of 0.3 mph makes not the slightest difference to me.

I've gone through several Felt bicycles and they handled pretty well. But they weren't a Basso team bike. Or a Moser. Or hopefully a Aliverti

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 3:10:16 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
>> On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 7:20:53 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

>> > On 8/19/2022 9:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > > It turns out that cabon bars with their deep airfoil like sections are simply too tiring to ride They end up holding your hands in a funny position and give you intense pains when you attempt to put your hands in the middle of the bar.

"Intense pain"? Did you try bar tape? According to this article,
wrapping bar tape didn't make much difference in drag:

"Engineers want bare tops, but many pros wrap them so we wind-tunnel
test"
<https://www.bikeradar.com/features/how-slippery-should-your-aero-road-bars-be/>
"...taping the bar all the way up to near the stem added 0.7 watts.
So, you could save about 1.5 watts by going fully bare up top."

Adding additional leather to your gloves at the pressure points might
also work.

>So I have been trying to find 26 mm bars with cable slots and for my Basso which I didn't realize (it being from a racing team) had a longer than normal top tube. So I have to reduce the normal 110 mm stem to 80 or shorter (experimentation will tell) This will hold up the finishing an testing of the Basso. In the meantime, I ran across a like new Aliverti who was a builder that either worked for or built frames for De Rosa. I got it for a song so I got it for a song. I happen to have all the parts necessary to put together a third steel bike so that now the C50 is sure to be sold off after I get some of the others sold.

>> > So much churning!
>> > --
>> > - Frank Krygowski

>> Churning bicycles can be a good thing, Frank, for a young & aspiring rider who wants to improve his equipment. For example, by buying and selling bikes on eBay and FB MP, my son has been able to work his way up from no bike to a Felt F65. That Felt bike sure is light compared to my old Paramount!

>Frank makes a practice of sticking his nose into other people's
>business.

Really? You append your comments to literally everything written in
RBT and now you complain when Frank (and others) do much the same, but
at a substantially lower frequency.

>When Jobst was here, he spent all of his time kissing Jobst's
>ass and following Jobst's orders to dislike this person or that.

I don't recall any such discussions between Jobst and Frank. Could
you provide a link to an example?

>Now without direction, he is withering and doesn't know it.

Quite the contrary. I'm seeing more output from Frank than ever
before. Most of it are carefully considered and detailed opinions and
analysis with plenty of evidence and substantiation. Whether you
agree or disagree with Frank's comments, the quantity and detail of
his writings is far from anything resembling "withering".

>He doesn't personally change his bikes around? Fine, but it is none of his business if others do. He doesn't try any new components? Fine, but again, it is none of his business what others do. His comments would get his ass kicked into his brainpan in person so he makes these comments only with the safety of distance. He is a fool and no one can save him.

I wasn't aware that RBT is now an "announcement only" newsgroup. When
you post something to RBT, it is assumed that you are doing so to
solicit suggestions and opinions from readers. Those opinions can
agree or disagree with your comments. Oddly, you make it a habit of
commenting on EVERY posting in RBT. No matter the topic, you have an
opinion. Now, you are suggesting that Frank does not have the right
to voice his suggestions and opinions on your announcements? In the
future, before you complain about someone else's actions, I suggest
you first check if you aren't doing the same things.

>I have learned that the latest and greatest aren't all that great.

That's good to know. From your travails, I've learned that you seem
to be having numerous difficulties with the latest, greatest and
everything in between. This suggests that the latest and greatest are
not for you.

>Light bikes aren't bad, but their improvements simply do not replace the workmanship and feel of a finely crafted steel bike. Pro's couldn't achieve the sorts of speeds that they do with them? So what? I'm not a pro. An average speed difference of 0.3 mph makes not the slightest difference to me.

Speed is not what everyone wants. Andre wants zero maintenance. Joerg
want rugged and crash proof. SMS wants functional. Frank want road
safety. Tom wants to impress his readers. I want comfortable and
affordable. I won't try to guess what the others want. Unless
someone is into time trials, racing, and setting records, speed isn't
the main objective. The main advantage of speed is that it's easy to
measure and compare.

>I've gone through several Felt bicycles and they handled pretty well. But they weren't a Basso team bike. Or a Moser. Or hopefully a Aliverti

Your opinion has been duly noted, registered, and recorded.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/20/2022 5:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 3:10:16 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
>> On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 7:20:53 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 8/19/2022 9:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It turns out that cabon bars with their deep airfoil like sections are simply too tiring to ride They end up holding your hands in a funny position and give you intense pains when you attempt to put your hands in the middle of the bar. So I have been trying to find 26 mm bars with cable slots and for my Basso which I didn't realize (it being from a racing team) had a longer than normal top tube. So I have to reduce the normal 110 mm stem to 80 or shorter (experimentation will tell) This will hold up the finishing an testing of the Basso. In the meantime, I ran across a like new Aliverti who was a builder that either worked for or built frames for De Rosa. I got it for a song so I got it for a song. I happen to have all the parts necessary to put together a third steel bike so that now the C50 is sure to be sold off after I get some of the others sold.
>>> So much churning!
>>>
>

> Frank makes a practice of sticking his nose into other people's business.

What the hell? If you don't want "your business" discussed here, stop
posting it! Stop giving every detail about every fantastic new bike, or
frame, or component you just bought, or tried to assemble, or plan to sell.

I'd be happy to ignore you completely if you'd just stop posting all
your foolishness.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 8/20/2022 7:34 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> When Jobst was here, he spent all of his time kissing Jobst's
>> ass and following Jobst's orders to dislike this person or that.
>
> I don't recall any such discussions between Jobst and Frank. Could
> you provide a link to an example?

There are no examples. Jobst never gave orders. But he was technically
brilliant, and I learned a lot from him. He also made what I considered
to be mistakes, and I publicly disagreed with those. Jobst and I
corresponded quite pleasantly. Yes, he had some sharp edges, so to
speak, but he was infinitely more valuable to this group and to
bicycling than Tom Kunich could ever be.

> Speed is not what everyone wants. Andre wants zero maintenance. Joerg
> want rugged and crash proof. SMS wants functional. Frank want road
> safety.

If we're talking about bike tech, what I want is reliability,
repairability even when out on the road, simplicity, versatility, and
what I consider reasonably light weight. What I don't want is to be
chasing fashions or ever-shifting "standards."

> Tom wants to impress his readers.

Is anyone here impressed by Tom? If so, please raise your hands. ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Wait....Six _centimeters_ ?!?!?

So this ace mechanic kunich who has spent however long rebuilding however many bikes to fit his dimensions wasn't suspicious when he bought a stem that was several inches longer than normal? Granted, the top tube dimensions vary depending on the geometry, but.....six centimeters?

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

I would agree with that statement on its premise, but tom is neither young nor aspiring. We would likely be understanding of the problems he (constantly) runs into if he had the humility that would normally go along with someone who makes so many mistakes. However, tom is not only inept, he's an asshole about being inept.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 10:20:53 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 8/19/2022 9:09 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> >
> > It turns out that cabon bars with their deep airfoil like sections are simply too tiring to ride They end up holding your hands in a funny position and give you intense pains when you attempt to put your hands in the middle of the bar.

For an ~80 year old, maybe. I don't have any problems with my Ritchey WCS aero carbon bars on long rides. Given that most pro-level bikes have integrated bar/stems these days, I'm guessing that the vast majority of competitive cyclist don't have any issues with them either.

> So I have been trying to find 26 mm bars with cable slots and for my Basso which I didn't realize (it being from a racing team) had a longer than normal top tube.

It's classic euro road geometry. It has nothing to do with being a team bike, and on this bike the "team" issue is just a paint job. The geometry is standard, especially for a third level team like VC Frankfurt Radteam - Brügelmann.

[Tom Kunich]

I started putting the handlebars on. I am reverting to the aluminum 26 mm bars rather than the carbon bars because of the difference in comfort. Using Cinelli bars and quill stems gives you a weight pretty close to the stem adapter, stem and handlebar.

Because of the depressions in the bar, rather than both brake and shift cable coming out the same side they come out the opposite sides of the levers. This required pulling the shift cable out of the lever and rethreading it back though the new pathway. The odd thing is that when I finally got the cable through the hole something was knocked out of both levers that sounded like small stones. But now it is completed and all is set to install when the new quill stem comes in. I am also waiting for some small cable ends that will allow me to run the shift cables from the steering head to the bottom bracket tube without going through the downtube shifter adjusters. So I put blocks on this and will have to set the cables on the front derailleur exactly correct since there will be no adjustments.

While doing my ride yesterday, I realized that I was riding like I did for a long time before I crossed over a fitness border of some kind and suddenly was able to ride a lot faster. Hopefully this will be that sort of barrier.

I did almost the entire ride yesterday not dropping below the 27 or 25 cog. I couldn't have done that just two weeks ago. What's more, there was a fast group that set off before us and we actually caught them. That was at the top of the last climb and they left just as we rode up so we went with them. I was faster downhill but I remained behind them. This necessitated riding the brakes but those are the breaks. (ha-ha). My legs are sore but tomorrow is another climbing ride and it will either be a fairly easy ride with a couple of very difficult sections or a nice easy ride into Pleasanton for coffee.

[Tom Kunich]

I can't remember if I said it elsewhere and the listings show that all of the stupid six have been making comments about things they know nothing about. My Basso turns out to have been custom made for a particular rider and hence the top tube instead of being the normal 57.5 or 58 cm long is 60 cm long. So my assumption that this was a standard frame is what caused me to order parts ahead of time that did not give a proper fit. That has been corrected.

I'm running out of bikes to sell because I am going to have to change parts all around so that the top end stuff remains on my riding bikes. There is nothing at all wrong with Centaur components, but I prefer shifting rapidly though the ridiculous multiple gears once rather than multiple times. It isn't as if everyone isn't buying electric groups that change one gear for one push. Or you can program them to change multiple gears by holding the button down, but it is really easy to lose track of where you are. So Centaur works very well, especially for beginners who seem to be buying my bikes.

[Tom Kunich]

Well there is only a couple things left to do. Amazon is supposed to deliver some small fittings that will allow me to connect and adjust the shift cables. And then with control over the gears, I can cut the chain off to the proper length for the cogset. It will then be ready to ride.

Don't you think that it's time for Seaton to tell us that you don't adjust the chain to the cogset but to the rear derailleur arm length?

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 1:32:37 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Well there is only a couple things left to do. Amazon is supposed to deliver some small fittings that will allow me to connect and adjust the shift cables. And then with control over the gears, I can cut the chain off to the proper length for the cogset.

I'm a bit confused by your actions here Tommy. Why do you need control over the gears to cut the chain? Most, all, bicycle mechanics would wrap the chain over the big chainring and biggest cog, give an extra link or two, some wiggle room, and then cut the chain. It is then guaranteed to be the right length for the shifters. No need to have the shifters working first. No need to even worry about which shifters you are going to use. Di2? Bar end? Downtube? STI? Ergo? The chain, cassette, and chainrings don't care. If you already have the cassette and crankset, why not just cut the chain to the correct length now? Why wait? You do have to mount the cassette on the hub and put it into the hub. And install the crankset in the bottom bracket.

Tommy, I don't think you are a very good bike mechanic. Shock and surprise.

> It will then be ready to ride.
>
> Don't you think that it's time for Seaton to tell us that you don't adjust the chain to the cogset but to the rear derailleur arm length?

Tommy, the rear derailleur arm goes straight underneath the chainstay when you shift into the big-big combination. The rear derailleur arm loses its ability to take up slack when it is straight under the chainstay. Whether the rear derailleur has a short arm, medium arm, or long arm, doesn't matter if its straight under the chainstay. It stops taking up any slack at all. Its straight ahead. Parallel to the chainstay. So why would its arm length matter?

Tommy, I do not mean to brag at all. No no no. But Tommy, like Yogi, I am a little bit smarter than the average bear. As for you, I think a historical reading of rec.bicycles.tech would give us a conclusive answer to that question.

[AMuzi]

For derailleur systems not including Campagnolo 12:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/CHNLENGT.JPG

[Tom Kunich]

I'm not aware of what happened but I asked a question concerning the Record group on my Basso and it never got posted.

Rear derailleur - short arm
Cassette - 12/29
The chain is set to the length in which large/large is possible but I don't use this combination save accidently.
When I am in the small ring (34) when I get to the 9th cog (23 or whatever it is) the idler touches the cogset.
There is an adjustment screw on the forward side of the derailleur that is presently all of the way in.
Moving it in or out seems to have no effect
Can you think of what might be going on? Perhaps that screw which appears to be the standard item is too short? I cannot find another adjustment on the rear derailleur.

[AMuzi]

Is this current Record 12 speed? Read the manual and set
chain length as directed.

Is this an older Record system? Prior series had long and
short versions for the rear changer. Short version spans a
maximum 25t low gear. With a larger low gear sprocket your
chain will sag in small-small.

[Tom Kunich]

I only use 11 speed systems now and would use 9 or 10's if the mechanical rear derailleur of the 11 wasn't such an improvement.
ten the chain a little

I discovered the problem. There was a quick link luckily near the very end of the chain. The chain was in a box with a Campy seal on it so it never occurred to me that it was used. The wear measurement doesn't show any measurable wear. This has happened to me twice now and I will no longer think of sealed boxes as being new. You can't get the bottom of the box open so people must carefully peel that seal back and then replace it later.

In any case, with the extra quick link removed, the chain is now only one link short of the proper length and I cannot shift into large-large. But I will buy a new chain sooner or later and replace this with one the proper length. Though I suspect that the proper length is using a Campy pin rather than a quick link.

[AMuzi]

How does a rivet make a chin longer/shorter than a snap
link, AEBE?

[Tom Kunich]

The link is one whole link whereas the pin is only 1/2 link.

[AMuzi]

No it's not.

With a snaplink your chain still has an equal number of
innies and outies[1] such that chain is 114 links or 116
links or whatever even number.

A half link is completely different.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/HALFLINK.JPG

[1]A snap link is a removable outie

[Tom Kunich]

Completely aside from the fact that they don't make those for anything over, what - 7 speeds - I was talking about a Campagnolo Ultralink which connects an outy directly to an inny. They are for 10, 11, 12 and 13 speeds. https://www.amazon.com/Campagnolo-Ultra-Link-Chain-Pin/dp/B077TFK9P8?th=1&psc=1

[AMuzi]

That's not a half link. It doesn't change the length and
chain remains with an even number of links.

[Tom Kunich]

Now you're confusing me. The chain comes with an open link and a closed link. If I install it as is with a pin, I simply push the pin in with the chain breaker and it is of one piece. If I want to use a quick link I have to CUT OFF the open link and install the quick link in place of the removed open link.

In the one case the chain is unchanged and in the other it is shortened by half a link. The difference in the chain length is 1/2 a link.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Andy, Andy, Andy. Take a break. Go for a ride. Its probably a wonderful evening in Madison right now. Remember, you are arguing, corresponding, with Tommy, an idiot, about a technical matter. Nothing you can possibly say will make any difference. Go for an enjoyable bike ride.

[AMuzi]

If you press the pin supplied with the chain, your operation
rivets the outers onto the inners.

If you use a snap link, you remove another rivet and replace
the last outer with the snaplink. Length does not change.
Think of a snaplink as a removable outer.

[Tom Kunich]

I woke up this morning trying like hell to figure out what I had meant. Of course you're correct. But we were, I think, originally talking about adding a link and not taking any off. This means that in order to get one "inner" that contains two rollers, you also have to add and "outy" quick release. I think that this is what I meant by "half a link".

But you're completely right that chains only can be an even number of links.

[Frank Krygowski]

Tom, that doesn't happen to normal people. Consider it a symptom.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

You're not doing a very good job of damage control. Andrew spent
quite a bit of time trying to help you understand how bicycle chains
and snaplinks work. You should thank him even if you still don't
understand how they work. The last time you went back and forth
multiple times, each time failing to understand the problem, was when
Jay Beattie tried to help you understand something in Dec 2021. That
resulted in Jay deciding that he had better things to do than argue
politics with you.

What is going on with me is that I have finally
hit my limit with lunatics like you. It reminds
me of teaching and always having to coddle the
dope at the back of the class who has to blurt
out some nonsense answer. One finally gets tired
of saying, "well. Jimmy, I guess Jesus could have
walked with the dinosaurs in Texas . . . "
Now its "Jimmy, you're a f****** lunatic. You
need serious mental health care. Go get that
immediately." As Sir says, I should really just
ignore you, but since I'm on a coffee break,
what the hell.

So, in conclusion, STFU. At least try to post on
a technical subject, and when doing that, don't
spew nonsense numbers, made-up facts, speculation,
etc., etc.

-- Jay Beattie.

I don't want to see a repeat performance with Andrew. I value his
knowledge far more than yours and don't want to see him disappear
simply because don't have the courage to admit that you don't
understand.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 11:37:14 PM UTC-5, jeff.li...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Sep 2022 05:48:43 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 5:06:52 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> If you press the pin supplied with the chain, your operation
> >> rivets the outers onto the inners.
> >>
> >> If you use a snap link, you remove another rivet and replace
> >> the last outer with the snaplink. Length does not change.
> >> Think of a snaplink as a removable outer.
>
> >I woke up this morning trying like hell to figure out what I had meant. Of course you're correct. But we were, I think, originally talking about adding a link and not taking any off. This means that in order to get one "inner" that contains two rollers, you also have to add and "outy" quick release. I think that this is what I meant by "half a link".
> >
> >But you're completely right that chains only can be an even number of links.
> You're not doing a very good job of damage control. Andrew spent
> quite a bit of time trying to help you understand how bicycle chains
> and snaplinks work. You should thank him even if you still don't
> understand how they work. The last time you went back and forth
> multiple times, each time failing to understand the problem, was when
> Jay Beattie tried to help you understand something in Dec 2021. That
> resulted in Jay deciding that he had better things to do than argue
> politics with you.
>
> What is going on with me is that I have finally
> hit my limit with lunatics like you. It reminds
> me of teaching and always having to coddle the
> dope at the back of the class who has to blurt
> out some nonsense answer.

I guess that was one of the good things about being a Teaching Assistant at a state university. Introduction to Financial Accounting was the class I taught. 30 years ago. ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The kids were paying to be there. And they chose the class. Not the teacher of course. So I did not have the dopes at the back of the class you describe. Guessing Frank did not have those types of people either.

[AMuzi]

+1

I found that to be true in machine shop, auto engines and
low temperature braze programs at tech night school. No
chatter, no doodling, no latecomers.

At university, engaged students were half or less in every
class and attendance was sporadic. (paying cash on the line
each semester, I never missed and sat at the front for all)

[Roger Merriman]

It’s why I do much less maintenance on the bike, than in the past as my
ability to work it out is reduced. The medical terms is executive function
or rather lack off!

I had a brain injury nearly a decade ago didn’t kill me but I’m not what I
was.

Luckily I have a good friendly bike shop who can do what I can’t

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

Our program was (and is) structured so "traditional" students (18 year
olds) could go full time in the daytime, and "non-traditional" (older,
employed) students could attend part time at night. There were some
classes I taught day or night on alternating years. Night classes always
had a mix of ages.

The difference was remarkable, especially in the beginner classes. There
were always some 18-year-olds who were disinterested and probably
attending because Mommy said to. Those guys tended to wash out very early.

But the evening classes were great. I'd be teaching some technical topic
- say, stress concentration - and a "non-traditional" student would pipe
up "That's exactly what happened with one of our assemblies, the crack
started right at ..."

And the eyes of the 18-year-olds in the class would sort of bug out as
they realized "Damn! This stuff is real!"


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 23:20:36 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
<ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I guess that was one of the good things about being a Teaching Assistant at a state university. Introduction to Financial Accounting was the class I taught. 30 years ago. ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The kids were paying to be there. And they chose the class. Not the teacher of course. So I did not have the dopes at the back of the class you describe. Guessing Frank did not have those types of people either.

The part with the "dopes at the back of the class" was from the last
message posted by Jay Beattie before he left RBT. I didn't write it.

I was one of the "dopes at the back of the class" when I was in high
school. However, I was not one of the dopes that Jay described. In
1967, Sputnik was launched and the US went on a "beat the evil
Russians" frenzy. That included accelerating the education of high IQ
students that might soon become scientists and engineers designing
bigger and better missiles to demonstrate the superiority of the
American way. Or something like that.

I was near the bottom of the students selected to be part of the
accelerated program. To insure that I would not become one of the
"dopes at the back of the class", the seating in most of the various
math and science type classes was arranged according to the score in
the previous exam. The worst scores were seated in front, where the
teacher could keep an eye on them. So, I became the "dope at the
front of the class". The teachers tended to ask me questions because
they knew that I could reliably produce a wrong answer which would
then be corrected by other students seated towards the back of the
room. Does this sound somewhat familiar?

Eventually, I graduated high school and entered college. There was no
need for an accelerated program because we had the war in Vietnam. The
incentive to study, do the homework, and not be a pest was simple. Get
good grades or get drafted to Vietnam as a "ground pounder".
Magically, I became an overnight model student, at least when it came
to the academic parts of college.

In 6 years of college (and 3 month of teacher preparation classes)
there were no "dopes at the back of the class". If anyone tried to
act the part, they would lose their student deferment and probably
find themselves in some branch of the military. Looks like the
deferment classifications have changed:
<https://www.sss.gov/about/return-to-draft/#s2>
There were also large numbers of students desperately trying to be
accepted by a college, any college.

Well, maybe there was one disruptive student. He was a foreign
exchange student from Iraq who believed that his family wealth could
buy is way out of any problem he might create. As I recall, someone
phoned the embassy in Washington DC and probably explained the
situation. He soon disappeared and was probably on his way back to
Iraq.

"For entertainment value, there's nothing better than reality"

[Tom Kunich]

I have the bike shop do the things that require expensive tools that are rarely used and so not worth my buying them. I know 100 times more about bicycles than that idiot Poland pinhead does but he likes to pretend that he knows what he is talking about. He's one of those guys that has 5 speed freewheel bikes and pretends that it is up to date. I can predict his stupid response: "I never said that."

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 3:14:10 PM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have the bike shop do the things that require expensive tools that are rarely used and so not worth my buying them. I know 100 times more about bicycles than that idiot Poland pinhead does but he likes to pretend that he knows what he is talking about. He's one of those guys that has 5 speed freewheel bikes and pretends that it is up to date. I can predict his stupid response: "I never said that."

I believe the late Jobst Brandt used freewheels (5-6-7, ??? not sure which), loose ball bearing hubs and bottom brackets, friction downtube shifters. Tommy says "I know 100 times more about bicycles than that" "one of those guys that has 5 speed freewheel bikes".

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

The class I taught was a sophomore level class. Not freshman. As Frank points out, those might not be very serious college students. So all of my students for Introduction to Financial Accounting had made the choice to major in the business school. I think Intro to Financial Accounting was a requirement for every business major. So maybe I had engaged students because they wanted/needed to do well in the class. Obviously, I had some students who were smarter than other students. But I do not recall any who were troublemakers or disruptive or acted like they did not want to be there. I did not keep attendance of every student. But it always seemed like the classes were full of students. Not too many skipped class.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

Forgot to mention, but in the early 1990s, there was not much worry about being drafted for the war. As Jeff mentioned when he attended college 25 years earlier. My students were not worried about being sent over to Iraq and Kuwait when Saddam started that war under Bush1.

[John B.]

Well, perhaps....

But on the other hand our Tommy has told us about the problems he has
had installing, lets see, bottom brackets, seat tubes, rear wheels,
chains, handle bars, handle bar tape, and undoubtedly other bits and
pieces that I've forgotten about.

Yes Sir! A real Master Mechanic!

--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

"I know 100 times more about bicycles"???

Aren't you the guy that had problems installing a bottom bracket? And
a seat post? And the rear wheel? And, most recently, the handlebars?
And have mentioned how difficult winding "bar-tape" is? And couldn't
tell a worn out bearing from a new one?

So can you give us a list Tommy, of these 100 things that you do know?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 4 Sep 2022 13:14:08 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I know 100 times more about bicycles than that idiot Poland
>pinhead does but he likes to pretend that he knows what he
>is talking about.

Those who can do something, help others to do it.
Those who can't do, hire someone to do it for them.
Those who only claim to know how, brag endlessly and usually do
nothing.
Those who understand how something works, design a better something
and market it to the others.

Reminder: If it hadn't been for WWII, the Polish cavalry would have
overrun Europe and eventually ruled the world.

>He's one of those guys that has 5 speed freewheel bikes and
>pretends that it is up to date.

My corn cob is bigger than your corn cob:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Corn%20Cobb%20Freewheel.jpg>

>I can predict his stupid response: "I never said that."

Perhaps "I never wrote that" would be more accurate.

08/03/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/cJi96AJ2A3k/m/JEyDC0TDBgAJ>
"I'll bet that there wasn't anything I didn't do wrong"

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

So in 32 days Tommy has gone from doing everything wrong to knowing 100 times more about bicycles than the college professor he claims is from Poland. Quite a transformation. I wonder if Tommy read a book or took a class to learn all this in one month. Just imagine how smart Tommy would be if he did this for twelve straight months. He would get every single Nobel prize every single year.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/5/2022 12:34 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> My corn cob is bigger than your corn cob:
> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Corn%20Cobb%20Freewheel.jpg>

Let me deflect from Tom's impotent insults into bike tech and (gasp!)
mathematics. (Sorry, Tom. I know you'll feel left out.)

OK, I know that mega-cassette is a mechanical cartoon, but it brings up
a technical point. It seems to have a linear increase, and linear
increases don't make much sense. As you shift to each larger cog, each
gear change is a smaller and smaller percentage. Shifting from (say) 28
to 29 is less than a 4% change. Shifting from a 32 to a 33 is even less,
a 3% change.

Logarithmic progressions, giving approximately constant percent changes,
are more logical. Or, since low gears are used during periods of really
hard work, even greater changes at the low end are probably valuable.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

On Thursday, August 11, 2022 at 5:10:14 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> My shop guy was once upon a time the Team 711 mechanic so not only did he recognize my Basso but he was familiar with the German racing team it came from.
>
> I was correct, the threads on the idiot bottom bracket were JIS standard and not Italian standard so he had to chase the threads with a real Italian tool and set the BB ends parallel. The happen to be tools so seldom used by a home mechanic that unless someone gives them to you they aren't worth buying.
>
> After he finished, the new cups threaded in by hand except for the final two threads. This is due to the Never-Seize that fills the threads and then the cups are set by torque wrench.
>
> Presently the bike is waiting for a new pair of handlebars.
>
> So this gives John a chance to tell us all about his long a storied career as a marksman and a bicycle racer which gives him the knowledge of how to be a sniper and all about electric group sets. Do you suppose that he will ever see himself as other's do?

A man from England makes a replacement lower arm for Campagnolo 11 speeds that gives a length comparable to medium length arm. So I've bought one of those for the Basso and will install it when it arrives. Might as well to it correctly. That will get me away from having a chain that of necessity has to be exactly the correct length. I also bought a Cinelli XA stem for it and the 26 mm bar that will fit it. Cinelli bars apparently use a 26.4 mm diameter but I've never seen any bars other than Cinelli that size. And no one used to use Cinelli bars so I guess 26 will work. Putting the 26 bar into Cinelli XA and tightening it down and I can't move it. Of course this might be because my XA is missing the rubber washer. Cinelli made a dozen different "bends" and named them but I couldn't tell the difference most of the time. Those bars were all 26.4 mm. The Basso will be waiting for parts for the next month but perhaps I will be able to get another Cinelli stem to put in the Moser since that carbon fiber bar and stem move.

I bought an ITM steel welded stem into which the 25.4 mm bar will fit and lock It is new old stock from the pictures. In the end I'm sure that I will have all sorts of stems and bar left over but I will be able to match them all.

I talked to my local bike shop guy and he tells me that Aliverti did not make the bikes under his name but subcontracted them out. So it is likely that De Rosa made the bike I should be getting tomorrow. The reason I bought it was because it appeared to have the angles and shape of a De Rosa of the mid-90's. I was never able to find a De Rosa in my size so that would be nice.

On my ride yesterday I had an average cadence of 45. And I was comfortable with it. Although I showed a distance of 43 miles looking at the map shows that for some reason the Garmin didn't start recording for 4 miles. So it was actually a 47 mile ride, So I am now to the point where I can take some metric century training rides that I know. I missed the Tour de Fuzz on Saturday because I hadn't trained to metric distances. Usually the first metric ride I do I get very tired. After than I don't have any problems riding those distances. Let's see of that is still working.

It is a bit irksome having to wait so long for parts but once finished they are done.

[Ralph Barone]

Log changes are more difficult to implement, as, having chosen your ratio
of adjacent gears, you then have to deal with non-integer numbers of teeth
on a gear.

[Tom Kunich]

Using the limits of 11-32 what would the log increase teeth be?

[Tom Kunich]

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

The best gear ratio I ever had was a custom 7 speed Suntour I (brother actually) freewheel bought from Bike Warehouse back in the mid 1980s. 13-14-15-16-17-20-24. Perfect one tooth differences in the most used gears. And big jumps when the hills got steep. 52-40 chainrings. Back then Bike Warehouse let you order custom Suntour freewheels.

Frank, half step gearing on bicycles gives a uniform percentage change between gears. But to achieve that smooth gear progression, you have to do a bit more complicated shifting. And space out your cassette/freewheel and chainrings correctly. My old touring bike was a triple with 7 speed cassette. Trek foolishly sold it with 50-45-30 chainrings. I eventually changed it to 48-45-24. Can't remember the exact cassette. But it was a good half step sequence. Originally had a big cog of 28 that I replaced with a 32. So for the granny gear it jumped from 24 to 32. Perfect for loaded touring in the mountains. When you need low gear, you need it NOW, not three gear shifts from now.

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 10:08:50 AM UTC-5, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 11, 2022 at 5:10:14 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > My shop guy was once upon a time the Team 711 mechanic so not only did he recognize my Basso but he was familiar with the German racing team it came from.
> >
> > I was correct, the threads on the idiot bottom bracket were JIS standard and not Italian standard so he had to chase the threads with a real Italian tool and set the BB ends parallel. The happen to be tools so seldom used by a home mechanic that unless someone gives them to you they aren't worth buying.
> >
> > After he finished, the new cups threaded in by hand except for the final two threads. This is due to the Never-Seize that fills the threads and then the cups are set by torque wrench.
> >
> > Presently the bike is waiting for a new pair of handlebars.
> >
> > So this gives John a chance to tell us all about his long a storied career as a marksman and a bicycle racer which gives him the knowledge of how to be a sniper and all about electric group sets. Do you suppose that he will ever see himself as other's do?
>
> A man from England makes a replacement lower arm for Campagnolo 11 speeds that gives a length comparable to medium length arm. So I've bought one of those for the Basso and will install it when it arrives.

So now Tommy is buying parts from makers in England in addition to all of the Chinese parts he buys. I wonder how this will go.

> Might as well to it correctly.

"do it correctly". Proofread your postings before posting. You will catch simple errors.

> That will get me away from having a chain that of necessity has to be exactly the correct length.

Ha Ha. Tommy has figured out a way to get away with doing wrong bad mechanical work. Good one Tommy. Competent people would just cut the chain to the correct length. But I'm sure your method to allow the wrong chain length is best.

> I also bought a Cinelli XA stem for it and the 26 mm bar that will fit it. Cinelli bars apparently use a 26.4 mm diameter but I've never seen any bars other than Cinelli that size. And no one used to use Cinelli bars so I guess 26 will work. Putting the 26 bar into Cinelli XA and tightening it down and I can't move it. Of course this might be because my XA is missing the rubber washer. Cinelli made a dozen different "bends" and named them but I couldn't tell the difference most of the time. Those bars were all 26.4 mm. The Basso will be waiting for parts for the next month but perhaps I will be able to get another Cinelli stem to put in the Moser since that carbon fiber bar and stem move.

Researching it, Cinelli used to use 26.4mm clamp diameter in the middle of the bars where the stem clamps. But stopped that during the mid 1990s and went to the 26.0mm standard that everyone else used. Except the Japanese who used 25.4mm clamp. Rest of Europe used 26.0mm. I would advise against putting 26 bars in a 26.4 stem. Try to get compatible bars and stems. Same size.

https://www.roadbikereview.com/threads/cinelli-xa-stem-need-info-please.120507/

>
> I bought an ITM steel welded stem into which the 25.4 mm bar will fit and lock It is new old stock from the pictures. In the end I'm sure that I will have all sorts of stems and bar left over but I will be able to match them all.
>
> I talked to my local bike shop guy and he tells me that Aliverti did not make the bikes under his name but subcontracted them out. So it is likely that De Rosa made the bike I should be getting tomorrow. The reason I bought it was because it appeared to have the angles and shape of a De Rosa of the mid-90's. I was never able to find a De Rosa in my size so that would be nice.
>
> On my ride yesterday I had an average cadence of 45. And I was comfortable with it. Although I showed a distance of 43 miles looking at the map shows that for some reason the Garmin didn't start recording for 4 miles. So it was actually a 47 mile ride,

Tommy, are you the only person on earth who cannot get his Garmin to work correctly? Most folks. Rational, logical folks anyway. If they have a product that does not work correctly, ever. They get rid of the product and get one that works correctly. You have regaled us with countless stories of how your Garmin never ever works correctly. Why not save us, and you too, a heap of grief and just get a product that works. Works for you anyway.

> So I am now to the point where I can take some metric century training rides that I know. I missed the Tour de Fuzz on Saturday because I hadn't trained to metric distances.

I know you mean trained to metric century lengths. 62 miles, 100 kilometers. But the way you wrote it: "hadn't trained to metric distances". Makes you sound stupid. How you measure distance is irrelevant. Miles, kilometers, furlongs. Its the same distance. You can use any measurement system you want, its still the same length.

> Usually the first metric ride I do I get very tired. After than I don't have any problems riding those distances. Let's see of that is still working.
>
> It is a bit irksome having to wait so long for parts but once finished they are done.

You're retired living on the government dole now. So you have plenty of time on your hands. Get in your old Taurus and drive around to all the bike shops in the Bay area and get the exact parts you need instead of waiting on orders from China and England. You do know Joe is intentionally delaying the container ships from docking just to F with you Tommy. Joe has a meeting every morning in the oval office with the topic of "How can we F Tommy today". They laugh and chuckle all through that meeting.

[Frank Krygowski]

I hoped the "approximately" would cover that. Maybe I should have added
another "approximately" for emphasis?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/5/2022 4:48 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 9:33:43 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/5/2022 12:34 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>
>>> My corn cob is bigger than your corn cob:
>>> <http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Corn%20Cobb%20Freewheel.jpg>
>> Let me deflect from Tom's impotent insults into bike tech and (gasp!)
>> mathematics. (Sorry, Tom. I know you'll feel left out.)
>>
>> OK, I know that mega-cassette is a mechanical cartoon, but it brings up
>> a technical point. It seems to have a linear increase, and linear
>> increases don't make much sense. As you shift to each larger cog, each
>> gear change is a smaller and smaller percentage. Shifting from (say) 28
>> to 29 is less than a 4% change. Shifting from a 32 to a 33 is even less,
>> a 3% change.
>>
>> Logarithmic progressions, giving approximately constant percent changes,
>> are more logical. Or, since low gears are used during periods of really
>> hard work, even greater changes at the low end are probably valuable.
>>

> Frank, half step gearing on bicycles gives a uniform percentage change between gears. But to achieve that smooth gear progression, you have to do a bit more complicated shifting. And space out your cassette/freewheel and chainrings correctly.

I still have half step on three bikes, including the tandem. Yes, it's
historic and unfashionable, but I never saw a reason to change it.

I think one reason it works for me is that I'm not super fussy about
gear ratios. I was paying attention to this on the tandem ride last
week. Most of the time, a ~10% change in gear either up or down is fine
with me. Consequently I do most shifts without touching the front
changer. If I want to fine tune, I then use the front; and half of those
times I can fine tune using only the front changer.

Double shifts are sometimes required to get exactly the right gear, but
those are not common, at least for me.

Yes, I recall when Nashbar sold custom freewheels and I've built quite a
few. I used to use semi-log graph paper to design my cog choices. Then I
wrote computer programs to do the log plots. Later, when Excel became
available, that was my tool.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[ritzann...@gmail.com]

I have and use a gear calculator spreadsheet in Excel. I frequently look up which cassette combinations are available and pair them up with either standard chainrings available or conjure up what chainrings I could custom order. Devise the perfect range of gearing with the perfect shifting pattern. With almost zero overlap and duplicate gears.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 08:08:48 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Although I showed a distance of 43 miles looking at the map
> shows that for some reason the Garmin didn't start recording
> for 4 miles.

I have a guess and suggestion that might fix that problem. My
guess(tm) is that you turned off your Garmin Edge 830, using the power
on/off button, at the end of your previous ride. That causes the
receiver to temporarily lose lock with the satellites. If you later
turn the Garmin 830 power back on, it can take some time to regain GPS
lock depending on your view of the sky. This article suggests about
10 minutes to GPS lock, but I don't think it's that long[1]:
<https://forums.garmin.com/sports-fitness/cycling/f/edge-830/194931/gps-delay-when-starting-off>
Let's see if the math works. 4 miles at about 15 mph would be:
4mi / 15mi/hr = 0.27hrs = 16 minutes
Yeah, that's in the ballpark.

There's another potential problem. Most GPS receivers have problems
acquiring GPS lock while you're moving. I don't have a Garmin 830 or
other GPS with a Sony chipset to try, so this is also a guess(tm). The
ancient Garmin GPS 76 on my desk won't acquire GPS lock when I'm
walking (until I stop). If you start your ride, and then turn on the
GPS power, that's probably the culprit.

[1] Note the comment at the bottom of the page suggesting that you
sync with Garmin Express before riding:
"Syncing your device via USB with Garmin Express will also ensure that
the GNSS ephemeris data is updated so that you get a faster lock. If
you start moving before you have a lock then it will take even longer;
better to let it sit still and stabilize for a few minutes."

[Ralph Barone]

Sure. Or I could admit that I missed reading that word. Your call.

[Ralph Barone]

Besides, it’s fun to think of gears with non-integer numbers of teeth. You
could probably do something using a gear with an integer number of teeth,
but with an oversized hub interface, such that the gear precesses on the
hub. I’m not sure how you would keep the gears aligned side to side on the
hub while still letting them flop around fire and aft, but that’s part of
the fun of the mental exercise. If you did it well, you could create a rear
cluster where every gear has the same number of teeth, but each one has a
different ratio.

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Frank wouldn't be able to figure out how to use a quick link as easily as you did <eyeroll>.

> He's one of those guys that has 5 speed freewheel bikes and pretends that it is up to date. I can predict his stupid response: "I never said that."

FINALLY tommy got something right. In fact, Frank never did say (or write) that.

[Tom Kunich]

Why do you suppose that Frank is talking about gearing? I said that the increase from gear to gear on a Campy and a Shimano 11-32 was about 9% between gears. Frank is so much smarter than the actual manufacturers why doesn't he get a consulting position there. That stupid ass lives on flat ground and believes that a 2% grade is steep. Maybe we should not talk about logarithmic progressions when he has never tried it and doesn't even have an idea of what it means?

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/6/2022 10:30 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>
> Why do you suppose that Frank is talking about gearing? I said that the increase from gear to gear on a Campy and a Shimano 11-32 was about 9% between gears. Frank is so much smarter than the actual manufacturers why doesn't he get a consulting position there. That stupid ass lives on flat ground and believes that a 2% grade is steep. Maybe we should not talk about logarithmic progressions when he has never tried it and doesn't even have an idea of what it means?

<sigh> Tom, I was working out (approximately) logarithmic gear ratios
around 1974, which was decades before yesterday, when you looked up the
definition of the term.

And don't talk about our gradients until you've come here to ride. Yes,
flat routes are possible. So are routes that are extremely steep. When I
hit my personal record downhill speed of 54 mph, I was on a ride that
started and ended at my home.

BTW, I've mentioned this before, but: Until recently, we were Warm
Showers hosts and were visited by a lot of bicycle tourists. One couple
celebrated their retirement by riding from their home in San Francisco
to Maine. They had such a good time that they decided to extend their
trip and continue their ride to Texas. They stayed with us on their ride
from Maine to Texas.

When they arrived here they were absolutely beat. They said the hills
during the final day in Western Pennsylvania made it the hardest day of
all.

--
- Frank Krygowski