**THIS FORUM WILL BE SHUT DOWN SOON**

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Chris Ilias

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Mar 27, 2021, 4:11:33 PM3/27/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
*WHAT IS HAPPENING*
Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).


*WHEN IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN*
lists.mozilla.org: April 3
news.mozilla.org: Sometime after April 3


*WHAT YOU WILL EXPERIENCE*
Because all posts to this newsgroup go through the mailing list, no
messages will be approved after April 3. You will still be able to
access news.mozilla.org, but there will be no new posts in this
newsgroup after that. If you try to post a message, it will just not appear.

Sometime after that, Giganews will shut down news.mozilla.org, and you
will no longer be able to access the newsgroup.


*WHERE TO FIND THE ARCHIVE*
The archive of this newsgroup will be kept intact at
https://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.firefox/
As with other newsgroups that have been shuttered in the past, the
archive will be read-only.

If you're using Thunderbird, you can also download all messages before
the news server is shut down.
1. In your Local Folders account, create a new folder called
"mozilla.support.firefox"
2. Open the newsgroup, then go to Edit-->Select-->All.
3. Go to Message-->Move_to-->Local_Folders-->mozilla.support.firefox
NOTE: There are over 190,000 messages, so it will take a long time to
download. You may want to select batches of messages instead of
selecting all.


*WHERE TO GO FOR SUPPORT*
The primary Firefox support forum is at
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/firefox?show=all
Other languages can be found at
https://support.mozilla.org/kb/get-community-support

If you prefer newsgroups, there may be newsgroups on Usenet where you
can find Firefox support. If not, try netscape.public.mozilla.browser.


*WHY THIS IS HAPPENING*
Mozilla has been migrating off of mailing lists and newsgroups for many
years now. Many of the mailing lists have already closed down and moved
to https://discourse.mozilla.org/
Even though a support web forum already exists, the support
newsgroups/lists have remained open for the lifetime of the server.


*WHERE TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS ANNOUNCEMENT*
You can reply to this post, and I'll try to answer any questions.
If you have questions after the shutdown, you can find me in the
#firefox chat room at
https://chat.mozilla.org/#/room/#firefox:mozilla.org or the #sumo chat
room at https://chat.mozilla.org/#/room/#SUMO:mozilla.org

My display name on chat.mozilla.org is cilias

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

Sailfish

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Mar 27, 2021, 7:43:06 PM3/27/21
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My bloviated meandering follows what Chris Ilias graced us with on
3/27/2021 1:11 PM:
This has been a pleasant place to visit and I enjoyed most of the people
I've had the pleasure to engage with. But, as with Archie, Veronica,
Jughead, Powwow, Finger, Whois and other unprofitable nascent
technologies, eventually the time langoliers devour them and only leave
faint memories for those old timers who had experienced them until even
those find a resting place in the wikipedia catacombs.

--
Sailfish
CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Nobody

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Mar 27, 2021, 7:58:42 PM3/27/21
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Committing the Cardinal Sin of Usenet, I'm Top Posting...

So this means if one needs peer help, you'll read it at Reddit.

Nobody

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Mar 27, 2021, 8:17:08 PM3/27/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 14:54:41 -0600, KenW <ken...@invalid.net> wrote:

>
>Well, I stopped using TB and Firefox is a secondary browser almost
>never used because it has too many problems after updates.
>
>
>KenW

Then why bother to comment?

Both are my sole mail client and browser without 'usage' problems,
while taking advantage of hints from this Usenet group for tweaks and
appearance related to earlier versions.

"Tabs shall be on the bottom"! <g>

Paul in Houston, TX

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Mar 27, 2021, 10:06:53 PM3/27/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Chris Ilias wrote:
> *WHAT IS HAPPENING*
> Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
> mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).

:(


Andy Burns

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Mar 28, 2021, 3:23:55 AM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Chris Ilias wrote:

> Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
> mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).

Indicate any support for alt.comp.software.firefox
over in alt.config
news:icaoin...@mid.individual.net


Molly Mockford

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Mar 28, 2021, 4:11:07 AM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 27/03/21 20:11, Chris Ilias wrote:
> *WHAT IS HAPPENING*
> Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
> mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).
>
>
> *WHEN IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN*
> lists.mozilla.org: April 3
> news.mozilla.org: Sometime after April 3

Death of Usenet
Film at 11
:-(

--
Molly Mockford
Nature loves variety. Unfortunately, society hates it. (Milton Diamond
Ph.D.)
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Henk de Jong

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Mar 28, 2021, 6:44:46 AM3/28/21
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Same as for Thunderbird: that would be great!

--
With kind regards,
Henk de Jong

7 Sisters Restaurant
https://www.7sistersrestaurant.com

WaltS48

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Mar 28, 2021, 8:24:07 AM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 3/28/21 4:10 AM, Molly Mockford wrote:
> On 27/03/21 20:11, Chris Ilias wrote:
>> *WHAT IS HAPPENING*
>> Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
>> mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).
>>
>>
>> *WHEN IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN*
>> lists.mozilla.org: April 3
>> news.mozilla.org: Sometime after April 3
> Death of Usenet
> Film at 11
> :-(
>
I haven't seen any announcement from my Usenet-News account that it was
shutting down its server.

Death of the Mozilla newsgroup server which is a separate  NNTP server.

<https://www.vpnmentor.com/blog/what-is-usenet-complete-guide/>

--
OS: Fedora 33 Workstation - Gnome Desktop
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/get-involved/


Bret Busby

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Mar 28, 2021, 8:52:34 AM3/28/21
to support...@lists.mozilla.org
On 28/3/21 4:11 am, Chris Ilias wrote:
> *WHAT IS HAPPENING*
> Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
> mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).
>
>
> *WHEN IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN*
> lists.mozilla.org: April 3
> news.mozilla.org: Sometime after April 3
>
>
So, if Firefox (and, presumably, thence, Thunderbird) is no longer going
to be supported, does this mean that the Borg - Microsoft - has
assimilated Mozzilla, and that Thunderbird and Firefox will disappear
into the Borg?

Also, because, whilst Seamonkey is "not supported by Mozzilla", but, the
Seamonkey mailing list has been hosted on lists.mozilla.org, is
Mozzilla, in becoming assimilated into the Borg, also shutting down
Seamonkey?

--
Bret Busby
UbuntuMATE User and Campaigner
Clean Energy User and Campaigner
Human Rights Campaigner
UBI and Citizens Dividend Campaigner

Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..............

Andy Burns

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Mar 28, 2021, 10:20:26 AM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
WaltS48 wrote:

> I haven't seen any announcement from my Usenet-News account that it was
> shutting down its server.

Your ISP's server shouldn't be peering with news.mozilla.org as mozilla
don't support that, and once news.mozilla.org is shutdown, it won't have
anything to peer with.

Chris Ilias

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Mar 28, 2021, 10:28:24 AM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 2021-03-28 8:52 a.m., Bret Busby wrote:
> So, if Firefox (and, presumably, thence, Thunderbird) is no longer going
> to be supported, does this mean that the Borg - Microsoft - has
> assimilated Mozzilla, and that Thunderbird and Firefox will disappear
> into the Borg?


Hi Bret,
Firefox and Thunderbird are still supported. The support forum is at
support.mozilla.org. You can always ask questions there. It's just
lists.mozilla.org and news.mozilla.org that are shutting down.

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

Chris Ilias

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Mar 28, 2021, 10:29:45 AM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 2021-03-28 4:10 a.m., Molly Mockford wrote:
> On 27/03/21 20:11, Chris Ilias wrote:
>> *WHAT IS HAPPENING*
>> Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
>> mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).
>>
>>
>> *WHEN IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN*
>> lists.mozilla.org: April 3
>> news.mozilla.org: Sometime after April 3
>
> Death of Usenet
> Film at 11
> :-(

I'm flattered that you think the death of this newsgroup means the death
of Usenet, but I should point out that this newsgroup is not fed to
Usenet. :)

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

WaltS48

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Mar 28, 2021, 10:58:22 AM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
That's been understood since I started reading about the pending
shutdown on the tb-planning list on 3/23, which also needs to find a new
home. No date was mentioned in those emails.

It isn't my ISP.

It is a USENET server, <https://usenet-news.net/> and Molly announced
the death of USENET.

I paid $15 for a 100GB renewal on 9/20/2017 and still have 112.229 GB
left, but only am subscribed to a.b.p.scenic which has low traffic.

WaltS48 out.

Bret Busby

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Mar 28, 2021, 11:05:17 AM3/28/21
to Firefox help community
On 28/03/2021, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:
> On 2021-03-28 8:52 a.m., Bret Busby wrote:
>> So, if Firefox (and, presumably, thence, Thunderbird) is no longer going
>> to be supported, does this mean that the Borg - Microsoft - has
>> assimilated Mozzilla, and that Thunderbird and Firefox will disappear
>> into the Borg?
>
>
> Hi Bret,
> Firefox and Thunderbird are still supported. The support forum is at
> support.mozilla.org. You can always ask questions there. It's just
> lists.mozilla.org and news.mozilla.org that are shutting down.
>
> --
> Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

But no longer a support mailing list?

Chris Ilias

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Mar 28, 2021, 11:30:23 AM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 2021-03-28 11:05 a.m., Bret Busby wrote:
> On 28/03/2021, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:
>> Firefox and Thunderbird are still supported. The support forum is at
>> support.mozilla.org. You can always ask questions there. It's just
>> lists.mozilla.org and news.mozilla.org that are shutting down.
>
> But no longer a support mailing list?

That's correct. Historically, this has never been the primary place for
support, and the amount of traffic is 10 times less than the official
support forum.

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

Dave Royal

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Mar 28, 2021, 11:53:52 AM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Molly Mockford <nospam...@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
> On 27/03/21 20:11, Chris Ilias wrote:
>> *WHAT IS HAPPENING*
>> Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
>> mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).
>>
>>
>> *WHEN IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN*
>> lists.mozilla.org: April 3
>> news.mozilla.org: Sometime after April 3
>
> Death of Usenet
> Film at 11
> :-(
>

I had to look that up ;)
--
(Remove numerics from email address)

PietB

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Mar 28, 2021, 12:19:43 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Chris Ilias wrote:
> Firefox and Thunderbird are still supported. The support forum is at
> support.mozilla.org.

No forum, and I repeat NO FORUM, can replace Usenet and its newsgroups,
and in particular its list of newsgroups, its ease of subscribing and
its easo of having everything in one place, without the need of having
visit and log into a zillion of separate forums. Not feeding the m.s.
newsgroups into Usenet in my view has been the biggest mistake Mozilla
had made. And now it's only getting worse.

-p

Andy Burns

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Mar 28, 2021, 12:44:20 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Andy Burns wrote:

> Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>> Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
>> mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).
>
> Indicate any support for alt.comp.software.firefox
> over in alt.config

It's been gently pointed out to me that I should NOT have requested
expressions of support over in alt.config, that is just for discussion
of the proposal, not "me too" posts, hopefully Chris won't object to
discussion here if it's confined to this thread in the group's final few
days?

It's also suggested to call any new group "alt.comp.mozilla.firefox"
instead of "alt.comp.software.firefox", another user has suggested a
similar group for seamonkey which I will include.

Molly Mockford

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Mar 28, 2021, 1:56:36 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
It was only a mild little joke, one which has frequently been posted in
all kinds of newsgroups over many years. My apologies to anybody who
actually took it as a serious announcement.

Bret Busby

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Mar 28, 2021, 3:04:22 PM3/28/21
to Firefox help community
On 28/03/2021, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:
> On 2021-03-28 11:05 a.m., Bret Busby wrote:
>> On 28/03/2021, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:
>>> Firefox and Thunderbird are still supported. The support forum is at
>>> support.mozilla.org. You can always ask questions there. It's just
>>> lists.mozilla.org and news.mozilla.org that are shutting down.
>>
>> But no longer a support mailing list?
>
> That's correct. Historically, this has never been the primary place for
> support, and the amount of traffic is 10 times less than the official
> support forum.
>
> --
> Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

I realise that others will disagree with me, but, to me, the ending of
support via mailing list(s) is the end of support.

forum things are too much trouble - I would have to log in to a
hundred or so forum things every day, then traverse through the forum
things, to be able to get the benefits from mailing lists. Each day
does not have enough hours, to have to deal with forum things. forum
things and their usage, are dangerous. Who can remember hundreds of
passwords?

If mozilla and its software are to be no longer supported, then it is
clearly time to find alternative software.

konqueror has mailing list support, which I have used recently.

Regarding Thunderbird, I do not know whether it has had mailing list
support, but, I guess that, as mozilla is ending support for its
software, I will have to cease using Thunderbird as a first glance
mail client, and, just stick with alpine, which does have mailing list
support.

Chris Ilias

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Mar 28, 2021, 3:19:50 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi Piet,

For clarification, the forums at support.mozilla.org are not meant to be
a replacement for newsgroups. They have existed since 2008, and have
been the primary support forums all of this time. This newsgroup has
existed as (among other reasons) an alternative for people like you, who
prefer newsgroups over web forums.

So I understand why people in here are upset, which is why I tried to
include a suggestion for people who prefer newsgroups.

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

Chris Ilias

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Mar 28, 2021, 3:36:24 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 2021-03-28 3:04 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
> On 28/03/2021, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:
>
>> That's correct. Historically, this has never been the primary place for
>> support, and the amount of traffic is 10 times less than the official
>> support forum.
>
> I realise that others will disagree with me, but, to me, the ending of
> support via mailing list(s) is the end of support.
>
> forum things are too much trouble - I would have to log in to a
> hundred or so forum things every day, then traverse through the forum
> things, to be able to get the benefits from mailing lists. Each day
> does not have enough hours, to have to deal with forum things. forum
> things and their usage, are dangerous. Who can remember hundreds of
> passwords?


Hi Bret,
For both convenience and security, the general recommendation in the
industry for many years has been to use a password manager. There are
many that are available, and Firefox even has one built-in -
https://support.mozilla.org/kb/password-manager-remember-delete-edit-logins


I should also mention that the support forum at support.mozilla.org
includes email notifications. When you ask a question, answers will be
emailed to you. If there is a thread you would like to subscribe to,
there is a button on the sidebar called "Get email updates".

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

Bret Busby

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Mar 28, 2021, 3:49:11 PM3/28/21
to Firefox help community
On 29/03/2021, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:
> On 2021-03-28 3:04 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
>> On 28/03/2021, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> That's correct. Historically, this has never been the primary place for
>>> support, and the amount of traffic is 10 times less than the official
>>> support forum.
>>
>> I realise that others will disagree with me, but, to me, the ending of
>> support via mailing list(s) is the end of support.
>>
>> forum things are too much trouble - I would have to log in to a
>> hundred or so forum things every day, then traverse through the forum
>> things, to be able to get the benefits from mailing lists. Each day
>> does not have enough hours, to have to deal with forum things. forum
>> things and their usage, are dangerous. Who can remember hundreds of
>> passwords?
>
>
> Hi Bret,
> For both convenience and security, the general recommendation in the
> industry for many years has been to use a password manager. There are
> many that are available, and Firefox even has one built-in -
> https://support.mozilla.org/kb/password-manager-remember-delete-edit-logins
>
>
> I should also mention that the support forum at support.mozilla.org
> includes email notifications. When you ask a question, answers will be
> emailed to you. If there is a thread you would like to subscribe to,
> there is a button on the sidebar called "Get email updates".
>
> --
> Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator
> _______________________________________________
> support-firefox mailing list
> support...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-firefox
> To unsubscribe, send an email to
> support-fir...@lists.mozilla.org?subject=unsubscribe
>

Please advise how many subscribers this list has.

Thank you in anticipation.

Andy Burns

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Mar 28, 2021, 3:50:59 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Bret Busby wrote:

> I realise that others will disagree with me, but, to me, the ending of
> support via mailing list(s) is the end of support.

But the support wasn't done by mozilla itself, it was done by the users
as a community, there's not much cross-over between users and developers
as far as I can see.

Chris Ilias

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Mar 28, 2021, 3:59:11 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 2021-03-28 3:48 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
> Please advise how many subscribers this list has.
>
> Thank you in anticipation.

Hi Bret,
I'm not that number would be useful. The large majority of posts here
are via NNTP, not the mailing list.
There are also duplicate members (with more than one address), and
people would subscribe solely for archiving.


Why do you want to know the total amount of subscribers?

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

s|b

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Mar 28, 2021, 4:09:19 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 16:11:20 -0400, Chris Ilias wrote:

> news.mozilla.org: Sometime after April 3

You should at least give us enough time to start up an RFD to create new
newsgroups in alt.*.

--
s|b

s|b

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Mar 28, 2021, 4:11:06 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 08:23:32 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

> Indicate any support for alt.comp.software.firefox
> over in alt.config
> news:icaoin...@mid.individual.net

First you need to start up an RFD with the name of the newsgroup(s), a
charter with the dos and donts (banning HTML goes without saying) etc.

--
s|b

Bret Busby

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Mar 28, 2021, 4:21:20 PM3/28/21
to support...@lists.mozilla.org
On 29/3/21 3:58 am, Chris Ilias wrote:
> On 2021-03-28 3:48 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
>> Please advise how many subscribers this list has.
>>
>> Thank you in anticipation.
>
> Hi Bret,
> I'm not that number would be useful. The large majority of posts here
> are via NNTP, not the mailing list.
> There are also duplicate members (with more than one address), and
> people would subscribe solely for archiving.
>
>
> Why do you want to know the total amount of subscribers?
>


When ancestry.com shut down all of its (about 57,000) rootsweb.com
genealogy mailing lists, I, and other list administrators, moved lists
(started up new lists, and invited our members at rootsweb.com, to
subscribe to the replacement lists.

I administer multiple mailing lists at groups.io, now (I used to
administer somewhere around 20-30 or so, I believe, at rootsweb.com).

After we transferred our mailing lists to groups.io, (that was about a
year ago, I think), in the last couple or few months, apparently,
groups.io imposed a maximum number of subscribers on the free mailing
lists, to 100.

If you view the web pages at
https://groups.io/static/pricing
and
https://groups.io/static/compare
you can see to what I am referring.

I am willing to start up a replacement list on groups.io, to replace
this list, as I did with the rootsweb lists (I transferred most of my
lists, and, took on some new ones, merged others that were administered
by others, with the other list administrators' permission, and,
suggested a new merged list, of which I am a moderator, that has, I
think, around 500 subscribers), if you do not object (as you are the
list administrator of this list, I believe it would be improper for me
to start a new replacement list, without your permission, unless you
explicitly state that you are not interested in starting up a new
replacement list at groups.io, or elsewhere, yourself).

But, this household suffered a 150AUD cut to disposable household
income, due to the coronavirus economic effects, and, I do not want to
have to pay out money for providing a free service to others.

groups.io provides for a facility, for donations to be made, for paying
for a list, I think, but, I have no idea as to how many subscribers this
list has.

So, if this list has less than 100 subscribers, I would be willing to
set up a new replacement mailing list, as I did with the rootsweb
genealogy mailing lists, and, subscribers to this list, would be free to
join, if they want.

Thus do I ask how many subscribers, this list has.

Bret Busby

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Mar 28, 2021, 4:24:30 PM3/28/21
to support...@lists.mozilla.org
On 29/3/21 4:21 am, Bret Busby wrote:
> On 29/3/21 3:58 am, Chris Ilias wrote:
>> On 2021-03-28 3:48 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
>>> Please advise how many subscribers this list has.
>>>
>>> Thank you in anticipation.
>>
that is, 150AUD per week

> to disposable household
> income, due to the coronavirus economic effects, and, I do not want to
> have to pay out money for providing a free service to others.
>
> groups.io provides for a facility, for donations to be made, for paying
> for a list, I think, but, I have no idea as to how many subscribers this
> list has.
>
> So, if this list has less than 100 subscribers, I would be willing to
> set up a new replacement mailing list, as I did with the rootsweb
> genealogy mailing lists, and, subscribers to this list, would be free to
> join, if they want.
>
> Thus do I ask how many subscribers, this list has.
>


Chris Ilias

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Mar 28, 2021, 4:31:53 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi sb,
I have no control over the schedule. If you need an interim group, you
can use the one I mentioned in the original post. I also remember
alt.fan.mozilla when I was on Usenet; you can use that as well.

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

Chris Ilias

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Mar 28, 2021, 4:36:51 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi Bret,
There are many more than 100 subscribers. However, if you'd like to
create a replacement, you can post a link here, so long as you make it
clear that it is not affiliated with Mozilla.


--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

Andy Burns

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Mar 28, 2021, 5:34:30 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
s|b wrote:

> First you need to start up an RFD with the name of the newsgroup(s), a
> charter with the dos and donts (banning HTML goes without saying) etc.

I'm working on mk2 of the proposals in alt.config to include charter and
justification sections ...

Bret Busby

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Mar 28, 2021, 6:24:03 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 29/3/21 4:36 am, Chris Ilias wrote:
> On 2021-03-28 4:21 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
> Hi Bret,
> There are many more than 100 subscribers. However, if you'd like to
> create a replacement, you can post a link here, so long as you make it
> clear that it is not affiliated with Mozilla.
>
>

Hello.

The new list web page address is
https://groups.io/g/firefox-support

Please read the group description before subscribing.

I have enabled the option to allow for the group/mailing list to be
sponsored, to provide for more than 100 subscribers, should it get that
many. I would not be concerned with that aspect, until the number of
subscribers approaches 100, if it does.

Subscribers to this mailing list, are invited to visit the above web
page, and subscribe to the group/mailing list.

To subscribe to the replacement mailing list, go to the above web page,
read the group description, and, if you accept that, click on the link
where it says "Subscribe, which should generate an email message for you
to send, to subscribe. You should then receive a subscription request
confirmation message, for you to send a reply, to confirm your subscription.

Chris Ilias

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Mar 28, 2021, 9:26:38 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 2021-03-28 6:23 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:

> The new list web page address is
> https://groups.io/g/firefox-support
Everyone, please note that the above link is not created by Mozilla. It
is not maintained by Mozilla, and not affiliated with Mozilla.
--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

Ant

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Mar 28, 2021, 10:12:58 PM3/28/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 3/27/2021 7:06 PM, Paul in Houston, TX wrote:
> Chris Ilias wrote:
>> *WHAT IS HAPPENING*
>> Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
>> mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).
>
> :(

:( too
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Andrea Venturoli

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Mar 29, 2021, 4:12:26 AM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 3/28/21 6:19 PM, PietB wrote:

> No forum, and I repeat NO FORUM, can replace Usenet and its newsgroups,
> ...
> without the need of having visit and log into a zillion of separate
> forums.

I tried resisting taking part in this thread, but I'm glad someone else
expressed exacly my opinion.

I understand NNTP is nowadays demode', but everyone else has mailing
lists and I fail to see why Mozilla shouldn't.
I'd rather throw away and replace a good software than need to go to a
web forum for support.

pe...@never.here

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Mar 29, 2021, 5:32:57 AM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:26:24 -0400, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:

>On 2021-03-28 6:23 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
>
>> The new list web page address is
>> https://groups.io/g/firefox-support
>Everyone, please note that the above link is not created by Mozilla. It
>is not maintained by Mozilla, and not affiliated with Mozilla.

Hi Chris,

In your original message on the subject you said:

*WHY THIS IS HAPPENING*
Mozilla has been migrating off of mailing lists and newsgroups for
many years now. Many of the mailing lists have already closed down and
moved to https://discourse.mozilla.org/
Even though a support web forum already exists, the support
newsgroups/lists have remained open for the lifetime of the server.

That is the physically what's happening but what is the reasoning
behind the move?

Has the cost become too great for Mozilla to bear or is it just the
inconvenience of having running them?


--
Pete

Chris Ilias

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Mar 29, 2021, 1:30:49 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 2021-03-29 5:32 a.m., pe...@never.here wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:26:24 -0400, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-03-28 6:23 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
>>
>>> The new list web page address is
>>> https://groups.io/g/firefox-support
>> Everyone, please note that the above link is not created by Mozilla. It
>> is not maintained by Mozilla, and not affiliated with Mozilla.
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> In your original message on the subject you said:
>
> *WHY THIS IS HAPPENING*
> Mozilla has been migrating off of mailing lists and newsgroups for
> many years now. Many of the mailing lists have already closed down and
> moved to https://discourse.mozilla.org/
> Even though a support web forum already exists, the support
> newsgroups/lists have remained open for the lifetime of the server.
>
> That is the physically what's happening but what is the reasoning
> behind the move?

There are so many reasons for it, I don't have time to provide them all
right now. :) For now, I'll just point to
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Problem_Statement

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

s|b

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Mar 29, 2021, 3:13:21 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 16:31:41 -0400, Chris Ilias wrote:

> Hi sb,
> I have no control over the schedule. If you need an interim group, you
> can use the one I mentioned in the original post. I also remember
> alt.fan.mozilla when I was on Usenet; you can use that as well.

Yes, I've read that. Sorry about my rather impulsive reaction. It would
have been nice to have more time to set up some (Usenet) alternatives.

--
s|b

s|b

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Mar 29, 2021, 3:15:59 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
I checked my logs to see how a new be.* newsgroup was created a long
time ago. It seems alt.config is a bit different.

--
s|b

Andy Burns

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Mar 29, 2021, 3:48:49 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
s|b wrote:

> I checked my logs to see how a new be.* newsgroup was created a long
> time ago. It seems alt.config is a bit different.

Yes, it's "informal" I think I'm doing it right, never done it before,
not quite sure I see the point of the 7 day waiting time, there's barely
any comment going on.

I might just short-cut the process and send the newgroup message early,
then I can start with persuading news server operators to actually carry
it on *their* server, coverage will be patchy at the start, it could
need people to contact their own server operator to add it ...


Jeff Barnett

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Mar 29, 2021, 4:01:04 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
If I remember correctly, there was a voting procedure among potential
users in order to create a new group. Is that still so? If it is, how do
we vote yes? Perhaps the size of the vote might determine servers`
desire to carry the new groups. More information would be helpful.
--
Jeff Barnett

Bret Busby

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Mar 29, 2021, 4:01:14 PM3/29/21
to support...@lists.mozilla.org
On 30/3/21 1:30 am, Chris Ilias wrote:
> On 2021-03-29 5:32 a.m., pe...@never.here wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:26:24 -0400, Chris Ilias <nm...@ilias.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-03-28 6:23 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
>>>
>>>> The new list web page address is
>>>> https://groups.io/g/firefox-support
>>> Everyone, please note that the above link is not created by Mozilla. It
>>> is not maintained by Mozilla, and not affiliated with Mozilla.
>>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> In your original message on the subject you said:
>>
>> *WHY THIS IS HAPPENING*
>> Mozilla has been migrating off of mailing lists and newsgroups for
>> many years now. Many of the mailing lists have already closed down and
>> moved to https://discourse.mozilla.org/
>> Even though a support web forum already exists, the support
>> newsgroups/lists have remained open for the lifetime of the server.
>>
>> That is the physically what's happening but what is the reasoning
>> behind the move?
>
> There are so many reasons for it, I don't have time to provide them all
> right now. :) For now, I'll just point to
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Problem_Statement
>


Are you aware of a proposal by Mozilla, to push (as in shovel, without
being given a choice) subscribers to Mozilla hosted mailing lists, into
google groupses?

Apparently, rather than, as I have done with the mailing list that I set
up, inviting subscribers to this list, to join my new list, apparently,
Mozilla proposes to automatically make all subscribers to its lists,
members of google groupses, regardless of whether the victims want that.

Chris Ilias

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Mar 29, 2021, 4:10:22 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 2021-03-29 4:00 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
> On 30/3/21 1:30 am, Chris Ilias wrote:
>
>> There are so many reasons for it, I don't have time to provide them
>> all right now. :) For now, I'll just point to
>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Problem_Statement
>
> Are you aware of a proposal by Mozilla, to push (as in shovel, without
> being given a choice) subscribers to Mozilla hosted mailing lists, into
> google groupses?
>
> Apparently, rather than, as I have done with the mailing list that I set
> up, inviting subscribers to this list, to join my new list, apparently,
> Mozilla proposes to automatically make all subscribers to its lists,
> members of google groupses, regardless of whether the victims want that.

Hi Bret,
If you want me to answer that, you're going to have to explain what on
earth you're referring to. :D

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

Andy Burns

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Mar 29, 2021, 4:14:30 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Jeff Barnett wrote:

> If I remember correctly, there was a voting procedure among potential
> users in order to create a new group.

only in the Big8 hierarchies comp/misc/rec/sci etc groups.

for alt.* groups there is no voting, the suggested 7 day wait seems to
be in case someone claims you didn't wait long enough and they would
have made recommendations, or objections.

> Is that still so? If it is, how do
> we vote yes? Perhaps the size of the vote might determine servers`
> desire to carry the new groups. More information would be helpful.

There is no vote, I made the mistake of thinking that informally the
number of "yes I'd use it" messages in support would help the case, but
apparently not really, it's a bit wild west ...


Richmond

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Mar 29, 2021, 4:17:22 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Chris Ilias wrote:
>
> *WHY THIS IS HAPPENING*
> Mozilla has been migrating off of mailing lists and newsgroups for many
> years now. Many of the mailing lists have already closed down and moved
> to https://discourse.mozilla.org/
> Even though a support web forum already exists, the support
> newsgroups/lists have remained open for the lifetime of the server.

This doesn't really answer the question, it just says it's happening
because it has been happening for years.

Bret Busby

unread,
Mar 29, 2021, 4:24:17 PM3/29/21
to support...@lists.mozilla.org
On 30/3/21 4:10 am, Chris Ilias wrote:
> On 2021-03-29 4:00 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
>> On 30/3/21 1:30 am, Chris Ilias wrote:
>>
>>> There are so many reasons for it, I don't have time to provide them
>>> all right now. :) For now, I'll just point to
>>> https://wiki.mozilla.org/Discussion_Forums/Problem_Statement
>>
>> Are you aware of a proposal by Mozilla, to push (as in shovel, without
>> being given a choice) subscribers to Mozilla hosted mailing lists,
>> into google groupses?
>>
>> Apparently, rather than, as I have done with the mailing list that I
>> set up, inviting subscribers to this list, to join my new list,
>> apparently, Mozilla proposes to automatically make all subscribers to
>> its lists, members of google groupses, regardless of whether the
>> victims want that.
>
> Hi Bret,
> If you want me to answer that, you're going to have to explain what on
> earth you're referring to. :D
>


I am told of a proposal from Mozilla, to put subscribers to its mailing
lists, automatically, into google groupses, so that it transfers its
hosted mailing lists to google groups, without the list subscribers
having any choice.

When ancestry.com shut down its rootsweb mailing lists, some people
chose to start up groups at google groups, some chose to go to yahoo
groups (which, I believe, have since closed down - I believe that yahoo
closed down its yahoo groups), and, some, like me, chose to go to
groups.io .

But, the subscribers to the rootsweb lists, were free to choose what we did.

Apparently, Mozilla has proposed transferring its lists subscribers to
google groups, without the list subscribers being given a choice.

The herding of the subscribers, without the subscribers being given a
choice, is an issue, if this is correct.

BillH

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Mar 29, 2021, 5:12:24 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 3/29/2021 1:23 PM, Bret Busby wrote:
> I am told of a proposal from Mozilla, to put subscribers to its mailing
> lists, automatically, into google groupses, so that it transfers its
> hosted mailing lists to google groups, without the list subscribers
> having any choice.

How were you told this? Where is this documented? Can we somehow see
where this proposal was mentioned?

Bill

--
If you want to send me an email, you must remove "NOSPAM" from my email
address before replying.

Bret Busby

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Mar 29, 2021, 5:36:38 PM3/29/21
to support...@lists.mozilla.org
On 30/3/21 5:12 am, BillH wrote:
> On 3/29/2021 1:23 PM, Bret Busby wrote:
>> I am told of a proposal from Mozilla, to put subscribers to its mailing
>> lists, automatically, into google groupses, so that it transfers its
>> hosted mailing lists to google groups, without the list subscribers
>> having any choice.
>
> How were you told this?  Where is this documented?  Can we somehow see
> where this proposal was mentioned?
>
> Bill
>


It is a proposal that I was advised had been made by Mozilla.

I believe it would not be appropriate for me to reveal my source.

I was asking the list administrator of this list, whether he or she (I
can not determine the gender by the name) had heard anything about the
proposal.

BillH

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Mar 29, 2021, 6:08:57 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 3/29/2021 2:36 PM, Bret Busby wrote:
> On 30/3/21 5:12 am, BillH wrote:
>> On 3/29/2021 1:23 PM, Bret Busby wrote:
>>> I am told of a proposal from Mozilla, to put subscribers to its mailing
>>> lists, automatically, into google groupses, so that it transfers its
>>> hosted mailing lists to google groups, without the list subscribers
>>> having any choice.
>>
>> How were you told this?  Where is this documented?  Can we somehow see
>> where this proposal was mentioned?
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
>
> It is a proposal that I was advised had been made by Mozilla.
>
> I believe it would not be appropriate for me to reveal my source.
>
> I was asking the list administrator of this list, whether he or she (I
> can not determine the gender by the name) had heard anything about the
> proposal.
>

Hmmm... a secret proposal... not sure what to think of that.

Bret Busby

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Mar 29, 2021, 6:24:52 PM3/29/21
to support...@lists.mozilla.org
On 30/3/21 6:08 am, BillH wrote:
> On 3/29/2021 2:36 PM, Bret Busby wrote:
>> On 30/3/21 5:12 am, BillH wrote:
>>> On 3/29/2021 1:23 PM, Bret Busby wrote:
>>>> I am told of a proposal from Mozilla, to put subscribers to its mailing
>>>> lists, automatically, into google groupses, so that it transfers its
>>>> hosted mailing lists to google groups, without the list subscribers
>>>> having any choice.
>>>
>>> How were you told this?  Where is this documented?  Can we somehow see
>>> where this proposal was mentioned?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>
>>
>> It is a proposal that I was advised had been made by Mozilla.
>>
>> I believe it would not be appropriate for me to reveal my source.
>>
>> I was asking the list administrator of this list, whether he or she (I
>> can not determine the gender by the name) had heard anything about the
>> proposal.
>>
>
> Hmmm... a secret proposal... not sure what to think of that.
>
> Bill
>


A further aspect to this, that I have just discovered...

I also use (this message is posted from) Thunderbird.

I had not previously been aware of a mailing list for support for
Thunderbird.

So, I did a google search for
thunderbird support mailing list
and found
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-thunderbird

Now, that list has the email address
support-t...@lists.mozilla.org

But, I wanted to view the list archive, to find what had been said on
that list, about the list being shut down, and, possibly, if applicable,
a replacement mailing list.

The interesting thing, is that, in the sentence
"To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the
support-thunderbird Archives. "
with the words "support-thunderbird Archives" forming a hypertext link,
the URL for that label, is
http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.support.thunderbird

So, I do not know the status of that list, or, thence, whether the
compulsory moving to google groups, of lists hosted by Mozilla, has
commenced.

Perhaps, Chris Ilias (the list administrator of this Firefox support
list) can clarify this.

Chris Ilias

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Mar 29, 2021, 7:04:33 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Chris Ilias (the list administrator of the Thunderbird support list) can
clarify this. :)

That forum (as well as this) is an amalgamation of a mailing list,
newsgroup, and google group. Every message sent to the mailing list
(hosted by Mozilla) is fed to the newsgroup (hosted by Giganews). Every
message posted to the newsgroup is sent to the mailing list, and fed
(along with messages from the mailing list) to the Google Group (hosted
by Google). Every message posted to the Google Group is fed to the
newsgroup, which then sends it to the mailing list. Using this method,
people can subscribe and post messages via whichever of the three
access-points they prefer, and still get the benefit of community
members from other access points. Basically, instead of being three
separate forums, it appears as one.

Google Groups was originally an archive of Usenet newsgroups. They then
allowed people to post to those newsgroups through Google Groups.
Eventually, they created their own groups that are not fed to Usenet,
also called Google Groups.
That's why you can find messages from 1982 talking about the upcoming
sequel to the Empire Strikes Back -
https://groups.google.com/g/net.movies/c/8Rsra_MR3yY/m/9TIQH0a19xwJ

These mailing lists were set up to use Google Groups as the archive.
(see https://www-archive.mozilla.org/community/giganews-migration.html)



--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

Bret Busby

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Mar 29, 2021, 7:32:21 PM3/29/21
to support...@lists.mozilla.org
On 30/3/21 7:04 am, Chris Ilias wrote:
> On 2021-03-29 6:24 p.m., Bret Busby wrote:
>
> Chris Ilias (the list administrator of the Thunderbird support list) can
> clarify this. :)
>
> That forum (as well as this) is an amalgamation of a mailing list,
> newsgroup, and google group. Every message sent to the mailing list
> (hosted by Mozilla) is fed to the newsgroup (hosted by Giganews). Every
> message posted to the newsgroup is sent to the mailing list, and fed
> (along with messages from the mailing list) to the Google Group (hosted
> by Google). Every message posted to the Google Group is fed to the
> newsgroup, which then sends it to the mailing list. Using this method,
> people can subscribe and post messages via whichever of the three
> access-points they prefer, and still get the benefit of community
> members from other access points. Basically, instead of being three
> separate forums, it appears as one.
>
> Google Groups was originally an archive of Usenet newsgroups. They then
> allowed people to post to those newsgroups through Google Groups.
> Eventually, they created their own groups that are not fed to Usenet,
> also called Google Groups.
> That's why you can find messages from 1982 talking about the upcoming
> sequel to the Empire Strikes Back -
> https://groups.google.com/g/net.movies/c/8Rsra_MR3yY/m/9TIQH0a19xwJ
>
> These mailing lists were set up to use Google Groups as the archive.
> (see https://www-archive.mozilla.org/community/giganews-migration.html)
>
>
>

Hello.

Thank you for that clarification.

In the circumstances, with what you have previously posted, is the
Thunderbird support mailing list, as hosted by Mozilla, at
support-t...@lists.mozilla.org
to also be shut down as of 03 April?

If so, has a replacement mailing list been created?

If it is to be closed down, and, if a replacement mailing list, has not
yet been created, may I also create a replacement mailing list for
Thunderbird, as I did for Firefox, at groups.io ?

Jeremy Nicoll

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Mar 29, 2021, 7:48:41 PM3/29/21
to ML - mozilla-ff-firefox-support
On Tue, 30 Mar 2021, at 00:31, Bret Busby wrote:

> In the circumstances, with what you have previously posted, is the
> Thunderbird support mailing list, as hosted by Mozilla, at
> support-t...@lists.mozilla.org
> to also be shut down as of 03 April?

Yes. There's a similar set of discussions there.
>
> If so, has a replacement mailing list been created?

There was already a pair of them on groups.io, at

https://groups.io/g/thunderbird
(which maybe doesn't allow attachments to posts)

and
https://groups.io/g/thunderbirdemail (which does allow them)

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Bret Busby

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Mar 29, 2021, 7:53:10 PM3/29/21
to support...@lists.mozilla.org
Thank you for that.

Chris Ilias

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Mar 29, 2021, 8:55:03 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
Hi Richmond,
If I understand correctly, you're asking why Mozilla is migrating off of
mailing lists and newsgroups (not specifically this forum).

There are too many reasons to list off, but I think the following page
is a good starting point:

Sailfish

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Mar 29, 2021, 9:21:03 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
My bloviated meandering follows what Chris Ilias graced us with on
3/29/2021 4:04 PM:
Chris, very interesting and a bit convoluted. I know this may not be in
your wheelhouse to answer but do you know if these groups will remain
active in Google Groups?

--
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CDC Covid19 Trends: https://www.facebook.com/groups/624208354841034
Rare Mozilla Stuff: http://tinyurl.com/z86x3sg

Chris Ilias

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Mar 29, 2021, 9:54:15 PM3/29/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
On 2021-03-29 9:20 p.m., Sailfish wrote:
> My bloviated meandering follows what Chris Ilias graced us with on
> 3/29/2021 4:04 PM:
>
I assume they will be marked as read-only, similar to what has been done
with previous mozilla newsgroups that were shut down.
For example: https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.mozilla-suite

--
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

Sailfish

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Mar 30, 2021, 2:46:18 PM3/30/21
to mozilla-sup...@lists.mozilla.org
My bloviated meandering follows what Chris Ilias graced us with on
3/29/2021 6:54 PM:
Okay, thanks. I'll try it out after this goes dark and see what happens.

Andrei Z.

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Mar 31, 2021, 1:20:09 AM3/31/21