sk2015sept08/08 - Commelina sp. on the bank of the pond

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surajit koley

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Sep 8, 2015, 2:34:48 PM9/8/15
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These photographs were recorded on 02-Sept-2015 and today. This species is thriving on the bank of ponds, village drainage, even on sides of railway tracks, possibly in damp soil.

Branching and rooting at nodes.

Flowers are the size of C. benghalensis as can be seen in the last pic (flowers in right is C. benghalensis) where two species growing side by side. Leaves are upto 7.5 cm long and 2 cm wide. Only a very few leaves are narrower than this. This species doesn't flower much, only a very few shoots bear flower.

Please help.

Thank you
Regards

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J.M. Garg

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Sep 14, 2015, 3:47:59 AM9/14/15
to efloraofindia, surajit koley

Forwarding again for Id assistance please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

Commelina species so far in efi                         


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Shobha Halwe-Chavda

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Sep 14, 2015, 6:35:10 AM9/14/15
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, surajit koley
Dear Suajit ji,
Isn't it Commelina forsskalii    ?
Regards,
Shobha

surajit koley

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Sep 14, 2015, 11:58:49 AM9/14/15
to Shobha Halwe-Chavda, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Thank you very much Madam for the suggestion. But, I simply do not know how to identify a Commelina. The problem is BSI restricts the distribution of C. forsskalaei Vahl. in the Peninsular and NW India.

Regards
surajit

Ponnutheerthagiri Santhan

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Sep 15, 2015, 10:02:19 AM9/15/15
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, surajit koley

On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 1:17 PM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

surajit koley

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Sep 15, 2015, 2:15:36 PM9/15/15
to Ponnutheerthagiri Santhan, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Many many thanks Santhan Ji. If BSI checklist didn't prevent me I would have very much identified it with the same taxon you have suggested.

There is very much confusion between C. diffusa Burm f. and C. caroliniana Walter (in US). C. caroliniana is conspecific with C. hasskarlii of India - http://www.jstor.org/stable/1220885?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents.

This species is C. hasskarlii C. B. Clarke.

Attached here relevant docs (downloaded from the net) for your perusal and further opinion.

Thank you
Regards
surajit koley
a non-botanist member of
efloraofIndia google group
116_IJAR-5827.pdf
2907-11801-1-PB.pdf

J.M. Garg

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Sep 28, 2015, 6:50:38 AM9/28/15
to efloraofindia, surajit koley, Ponnutheerthagiri Santhan, Shobha Halwe-Chavda

Forwarding again for validation please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

Isn't it Commelina forsskalii ?

Regards,
Shobha                                         

Thank you very much Madam for the suggestion. But, I simply do not know how to identify a Commelina. The problem is BSI restricts the distribution of C. forsskalaei Vahl. in the Peninsular and NW India.

Regards
surajit 

Commelina diffusa Burm.f.,- from Santhan ji. 

Many many thanks Santhan Ji. If BSI checklist didn't prevent me I would have very much identified it with the same taxon you have suggested.
There is very much confusion between C. diffusa Burm f. and C. caroliniana Walter (in US). C. caroliniana is conspecific with C. hasskarlii of India - http://www.jstor.org/stable/1220885?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents.
This species is C. hasskarlii C. B. Clarke.
Attached here relevant docs (downloaded from the net) for your perusal and further opinion.
Thank you
Regards
surajit koley 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com>
Date: 9 September 2015 at 00:04
Subject: [efloraofindia:231355] sk2015sept08/08 - Commelina sp. on the bank of the pond
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>


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J.M. Garg

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Sep 28, 2015, 7:26:10 AM9/28/15
to efloraofindia, surajit koley, manudev madhavan
Thanks, Manudev ji.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: manudev madhavan
Date: 28 September 2015 at 16:48
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:231355] sk2015sept08/08 - Commelina sp. on the bank of the pond
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>


This species is very close to Commelina diffusa Burm f. 
I can rule out the possibility of Comelina caroliniana Walter (or Commelina hasskarli C.B.Clarke) because of two reasons
1. It is very clear that, this species has an upper cincinnus
2. Spathe is glabrous as opposed to serrulate to pubescent spathe.

Also, Comelina caroliniana Walter (Fl. Carol. 68. 1788) is the correct name since the name has priority over Commelina hasskarli C.B.Clarke (Commelyn. Cyrtandr. Bengal 13, t.3. 1874). A careful reading of the abstract of the paper would have helped 😊

NB: There is one more species of Commelina in this post.
Image number P1160722 has Commelina benghalensis (right side) in addition to the species in quiry.

--
Manudev K Madhavan
Assistant Professor,
Department of Botany, 
St. Joseph's College
Medical College P.O.
Kozhikode- 673 008

surajit koley

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Sep 28, 2015, 1:32:26 PM9/28/15
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, manudev madhavan
Thanks to Manudev ji and Garg Sir.
BSI checklist for this region can be viewed at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/indiantreepix/rYFxY20DU3g/8-oX_700FwAJ.
As per per the checklist above C. diffusa Burm. f. not to be found in this regionhttp://efloraindia.nic.in/efloraindia/speciesDesc_PCL.action?species_id=2483.
Even if we assume that the BSI checklist is outdated, and C. diffusa later finds its way to south Bengal also, I doubt if such an introduced (in this region) species can be so pervasive. In fact this is the most common Commelina thriving everywhere in SINGUR, HARIPAL, DANKUNI, CHANDITALA blocks of Hooghly districts. Presently the species is not in flowering state. Only one or two can be seen in one or two population. All my previous uploads of this species in this group and in facebook group (4 years ago) had been identified as diffusa!

Now, something about Manudev Ji's points (ruling out caroliniana Walter) -
  1. no where it was/is mentioned that caroliniana cannot have an upper cincinnus. Instead what author noted in his paper is "upper cyme usually vestigial (rarely well developed and 1-flowered)." The same has been copied in FoNA. Against this FBI, Bengal Plants, of-course outdated, noted "upper cymes 2-4 flowered.". The author's view in the paper (page 45) I referred can also be taken account in this regard.
  2. no where I could find mention of spathe in caroliniana is serrulate!
  3. spathe of caroliniana "margins distinct, usually cilliate, apex acuminate, glabrous or very sparsely pilose."
If, based on the above 3 points, we want to negate the probability of this species being hasskarlii (caroliniana) yet accepting the probability of diffusa as Manudev Ji has indicated we need to see/read the author's view in the paper I referred - "... Although a detailed comparision between C. caroliniana and C. diffusa and the variation exhibited by these species in the United States will be the subject of another paper, specimens of the two species can be separated by the following key :
  • Spathes not all to slightly falcate; upper cyme usually vestigial (rarely.....).... capsules....   .... C. caroliniana
  • Spathes usually distinctly falcate; upper cyme in larger spathes usually well developed and 1-several-flowered; capsules... C. diffusa
Interesting ..... until we examine a number of spathes and cymes at different locations of several populations!!!

(as for naming convention I followed BSI checklist which doesn't mention caroliniana)
(as for benghalensis I mentioned it in the initiating post itself !!!)

Thank you
Regards
(simply) surajit koley
! no "Sir", no "Dr.", no "Ji" !

surajit koley

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Sep 28, 2015, 2:36:29 PM9/28/15
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, manudev madhavan
Since we are discussing upper cyme, three more pics of this specimen of same population.

Thank you
Regards
(simply) surajit koley
! no "Sir", no "Dr.", no "Ji" !


P1160754.jpg
P1160670.jpg
P1160722.jpg

J.M. Garg

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Oct 8, 2015, 1:43:29 AM10/8/15
to efloraofindia, surajit koley

Forwarding again for validation please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

Isn't it Commelina forsskalii ?

Regards,
Shobha                                         

Thank you very much Madam for the suggestion. But, I simply do not know how to identify a Commelina. The problem is BSI restricts the distribution of C. forsskalaei Vahl. in the Peninsular and NW India.

Regards
surajit 

Commelina diffusa Burm.f.,- from Santhan ji. 

Many many thanks Santhan Ji. If BSI checklist didn't prevent me I would have very much identified it with the same taxon you have suggested.
There is very much confusion between C. diffusa Burm f. and C. caroliniana Walter (in US). C. caroliniana is conspecific with C. hasskarlii of India - http://www.jstor.org/stable/1220885?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents.
This species is C. hasskarlii C. B. Clarke.
Attached here relevant docs (downloaded from the net) for your perusal and further opinion.
Thank you
Regards
surajit koley 
This species is very close to Commelina diffusa Burm f. 
I can rule out the possibility of Comelina caroliniana Walter (or Commelina hasskarli C.B.Clarke) because of two reasons
1. It is very clear that, this species has an upper cincinnus
2. Spathe is glabrous as opposed to serrulate to pubescent spathe.

Also, Comelina caroliniana Walter (Fl. Carol. 68. 1788) is the correct name since the name has priority over Commelina hasskarli C.B.Clarke (Commelyn. Cyrtandr. Bengal 13, t.3. 1874). A careful reading of the abstract of the paper would have helped 😊

NB: There is one more species of Commelina in this post.

Image number P1160722 has Commelina benghalensis (right side) in addition to the species in quiry. 
--
Manudev K Madhavan

 
Thanks to Manudev ji ....
BSI checklist for this region can be viewed at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/indiantreepix/rYFxY20DU3g/8-oX_700FwAJ.
As per per the checklist above C. diffusa Burm. f. not to be found in this regionhttp://efloraindia.nic.in/efloraindia/speciesDesc_PCL.action?species_id=2483.
Even if we assume that the BSI checklist is outdated, and C. diffusa later finds its way to south Bengal also, I doubt if such an introduced (in this region) species can be so pervasive. In fact this is the most common Commelina thriving everywhere in SINGUR, HARIPAL, DANKUNI, CHANDITALA blocks of Hooghly districts. Presently the species is not in flowering state. Only one or two can be seen in one or two population. All my previous uploads of this species in this group and in facebook group (4 years ago) had been identified as diffusa!

Now, something about Manudev Ji's points (ruling out caroliniana Walter) -
  1. no where it was/is mentioned that caroliniana cannot have an upper cincinnus. Instead what author noted in his paper is "upper cyme usually vestigial (rarely well developed and 1-flowered)." The same has been copied in FoNA. Against this FBI, Bengal Plants, of-course outdated, noted "upper cymes 2-4 flowered.". The author's view in the paper (page 45) I referred can also be taken account in this regard.
  2. no where I could find mention of spathe in caroliniana is serrulate!
  3. spathe of caroliniana "margins distinct, usually cilliate, apex acuminate, glabrous or very sparsely pilose."
If, based on the above 3 points, we want to negate the probability of this species being hasskarlii (caroliniana) yet accepting the probability of diffusa as Manudev Ji has indicated we need to see/read the author's view in the paper I referred - "... Although a detailed comparision between C. caroliniana and C. diffusa and the variation exhibited by these species in the United States will be the subject of another paper, specimens of the two species can be separated by the following key :
  • Spathes not all to slightly falcate; upper cyme usually vestigial (rarely.....).... capsules....   .... C. caroliniana
  • Spathes usually distinctly falcate; upper cyme in larger spathes usually well developed and 1-several-flowered; capsules... C. diffusa
Interesting ..... until we examine a number of spathes and cymes at different locations of several populations!!!

(as for naming convention I followed BSI checklist which doesn't mention caroliniana)
(as for benghalensis I mentioned it in the initiating post itself !!!)

Thank you
Regards
(simply) surajit koley 

Since we are discussing upper cyme, three more pics of this specimen of same population.

Thank you
Regards
(simply) surajit koley 
P1160754.jpg
P1160670.jpg
P1160722.jpg

surajit koley

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Oct 10, 2015, 2:11:04 PM10/10/15
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
I fail to find any reason to rule out possibility of C. caroliniana Walter (C. hasskarlii C. B. Clarke).

Thank you
Regards
(simply) surajit koley
! no "Sir", no "Dr.", no "Ji" !


Mayur Nandikar

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Dec 7, 2015, 6:06:30 AM12/7/15
to surajit koley, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Few more days required to conclude its identity. For time being keep it in Commlelina diffusa
Mayur D. Nandikar,
Department of Botany, 
Goa University, 
Taleigao Plateau, 
Goa 403 206

J.M. Garg

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Jan 12, 2021, 2:31:01 AMJan 12
to efloraofindia, surajitkoley, Saroj Kasaju

Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please.

Earlier feedback:

Few more days required to conclude its identity. For time being keep it in Commlelina diffusa.  - from Mayur ji. 

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sept 2015 at 00:04
Subject: [efloraofindia:231355] sk2015sept08/08 - Commelina sp. on the bank of the pond
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>


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P1160711.jpg
P1160722.jpg

J.M. Garg

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Jan 18, 2021, 2:21:14 AMJan 18
to efloraofindia, surajitkoley

Forwarding again for Id assistance please.


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sept 2015 at 00:04
Subject: [efloraofindia:231355] sk2015sept08/08 - Commelina sp. on the bank of the pond
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>


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surajit koley

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Mar 13, 2021, 12:33:07 PMMar 13
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Well, Sir, unless Mayur ji (or some other member) determines the species let it remain as Commelina sp.

Thank you.

With regards,

Surajit Koley

J.M. Garg

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Mar 17, 2021, 12:16:27 PMMar 17
to efloraofindia, surajitkoley
Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please, as Commlelina diffusa

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sept 2015 at 00:04
Subject: [efloraofindia:231355] sk2015sept08/08 - Commelina sp. on the bank of the pond
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>


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P1160711.jpg
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Gurcharan Singh

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Jul 31, 2021, 11:37:02 AMJul 31
to efloraofindia

Gurcharan Singh

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Jul 31, 2021, 11:57:55 AMJul 31
to indiantreepix, surajitkoley
---------- Forwarded message ---------
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Date: Wednesday, September 9, 2015 at 12:04:48 AM UTC+5:30
Subject: sk2015sept08/08 - Commelina sp. on the bank of the pond
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>


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surajit koley

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Aug 1, 2021, 2:07:32 AMAug 1
to Gurcharan Singh, indiantreepix
Sir, thank you for taking care.

I think it is Commelina diffusa as Mayur ji and others suggested earlier. it's perhaps the commonest Commelina here, growing everywhere.

Regards,

Surajit
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