Cirsium falconeri (Hook.f.) Petr. (provisionally accepted name) ??

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Saroj Kasaju

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Jan 8, 2017, 11:58:07 AM1/8/17
to efloraofindia, J.M. Garg
Dear Members,

Location: Kalinchowk, Dolakha, Nepal
Altitude: 9000 ft.
Date: 26 July 2014

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju
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J.M. Garg

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Jan 8, 2017, 7:25:43 PM1/8/17
to Saroj Kasaju, efloraofindia

Nice images,  Saroj ji.

chrischa...@btinternet.com

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Jan 10, 2017, 6:01:58 AM1/10/17
to efloraofindia, jmg...@gmail.com
See my recent comments about Cirsium falconeri.   The plant you photographed is definitely not the same as C.falconeri
found in Kashmir.

I have indicated that quite a number of the postings on eFI named as C.falconeri are not this species or indeed Cirsiums.

Distinguishing between these thistles is difficult.

J.M. Garg

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Jan 11, 2017, 2:07:08 AM1/11/17
to chrischa...@btinternet.com, efloraofindia, Saroj Kasaju

Thanks a lot,  Chadwell ji.

Saroj Kasaju

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Jan 11, 2017, 5:16:20 AM1/11/17
to J.M. Garg, C CHADWELL, efloraofindia

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 12:52 PM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks a lot,  Chadwell ji.

J.M. Garg

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Jan 22, 2017, 11:33:28 AM1/22/17
to efloraofindia, Saroj Kasaju, chrischa...@btinternet.com

Forwarding again for Id assistance please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

See my recent comments about Cirsium falconeri.   The plant you photographed is definitely not the same as C.falconeri
found in Kashmir.
I have indicated that quite a number of the postings on eFI named as C.falconeri are not this species or indeed Cirsiums.
Distinguishing between these thistles is difficult. 
- Chadwell ji

Enclosing link if it could help to ID.
Thank you.
Saroj Kasaju 

--
With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images).

The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'.

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C CHADWELL

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Jan 22, 2017, 5:35:33 PM1/22/17
to J.M. Garg, efloraofindia, Saroj Kasaju
It will be some time before I can scrutinise these thistles further. 


Best Wishes,


Chris Chadwell


81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK








From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>; chrischa...@btinternet.com
Sent: Sunday, 22 January 2017, 16:33
Subject: Fwd: Cirsium falconeri (Hook.f.) Petr. (provisionally accepted name) ??

C CHADWELL

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Jan 25, 2017, 2:28:27 PM1/25/17
to Saroj Kasaju, J.M. Garg, efloraofindia
Thanks for the link to the current listing of Cirsium species recorded from Nepal but ALL these were
within 'An Enumeration of the Flowering Plants of Nepal'  Vol 3 (1982) which covered this genus.

Kitamura & Gould who wrote the account of Asteraceae (then Compositae) stated for C.falconeri in
Nepal that the taxon as recognised is a very variable species - they outlined the differences between
'Kashmir' plants and 'Eastern Himalaya' ones.  They concluded that the amount of variation suggests
that several species may be involved and further study is required.

I am in agreement with this. It does not appear that this study has taken place in the intervening period.

I should be in a position to comment further about the images posted under the name C.falconeri on eFI
but a MAJOR study is required overall - there are limits to what I can do.

For the time-being, my INITIAL impressions were that SOME of the images posted not only did not match
the Kashmir form of C.falconeri but were not the 'Eastern Himalayan Form' either (whatever taxa are decided
upon when a thorough revision has taken place) and may well belong either to other Cirsium species or
related genera.

I cannot meaningful do any MORE with the images you posted at this stage.


Best Wishes,


Chris Chadwell


81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK








From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>; efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 11 January 2017, 10:16
Subject: [efloraofindia:261049] Re: Cirsium falconeri (Hook.f.) Petr. (provisionally accepted name) ??


Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 12:52 PM, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks a lot,  Chadwell ji.

On 10 Jan 2017 4:31 p.m., "chrischadwell261@btinternet. com" <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com> wrote:
See my recent comments about Cirsium falconeri.   The plant you photographed is definitely not the same as C.falconeri
found in Kashmir.

I have indicated that quite a number of the postings on eFI named as C.falconeri are not this species or indeed Cirsiums.

Distinguishing between these thistles is difficult.


On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:58:07 PM UTC, Saroj Kumar Kasaju wrote:
Dear Members,

Location: Kalinchowk, Dolakha, Nepal
Altitude: 9000 ft.
Date: 26 July 2014

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

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Saroj Kasaju

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May 24, 2019, 11:10:53 AM5/24/19
to Ashutosh Sharma, efloraindia, J.M. Garg

Dear Ashutosh Ji,

Some help for ID ?

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

Forwarded Conversation
Subject: Cirsium falconeri (Hook.f.) Petr. (provisionally accepted name) ??
------------------------

From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 10:43 PM
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>


Dear Members,

Location: Kalinchowk, Dolakha, Nepal
Altitude: 9000 ft.
Date: 26 July 2014

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju


----------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 6:10 AM
To: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>


Nice images,  Saroj ji.



----------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 12:52 PM
To: <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>, Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>


Thanks a lot,  Chadwell ji.


On 10 Jan 2017 4:31 p.m., "chrischa...@btinternet.com" <chrischa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
See my recent comments about Cirsium falconeri.   The plant you photographed is definitely not the same as C.falconeri
found in Kashmir.

I have indicated that quite a number of the postings on eFI named as C.falconeri are not this species or indeed Cirsiums.

Distinguishing between these thistles is difficult.


----------
From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 4:01 PM
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>, efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>



Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju


----------
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 10:18 PM
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>, <chrischa...@btinternet.com>


Forwarding again for Id assistance please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

See my recent comments about Cirsium falconeri.   The plant you photographed is definitely not the same as C.falconeri
found in Kashmir.
I have indicated that quite a number of the postings on eFI named as C.falconeri are not this species or indeed Cirsiums.
Distinguishing between these thistles is difficult. 
- Chadwell ji

Enclosing link if it could help to ID.
Thank you.
Saroj Kasaju 

--
With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images).

The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'.



----------
From: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Date: Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:13 AM
To: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Cc: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>


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Saroj Kasaju

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Jul 11, 2020, 8:49:03 AM7/11/20
to Ashutosh Sharma, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
This ID is still pending ! Opinion from members please!
Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

Saroj Kasaju

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Aug 27, 2020, 7:35:21 AM8/27/20
to efloraindia, J.M. Garg, Paradesi Anjaneyulu
Any opinion Paradesi Ji ?

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

Date: Fri, May 24, 2019 at 8:55 PM
To: Ashutosh Sharma <ashutoshs...@gmail.com>
Cc: efloraindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 6:33 PM
To: Ashutosh Sharma <ashutoshs...@gmail.com>
Cc: efloraindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
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Paradesi Anjaneyulu

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Aug 27, 2020, 12:00:53 PM8/27/20
to Saroj Kasaju, efloraindia, J.M. Garg
I am thinking you're right Saroj Ji, agreed for flaconeri,
With regards.

Saroj Kasaju

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Aug 27, 2020, 12:05:56 PM8/27/20
to Paradesi Anjaneyulu, J.M. Garg, efloraindia
Thank you Paradesi ji.
Saroj Kasaju
--
Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

Saroj Kasaju

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Dec 6, 2020, 1:18:18 AM12/6/20
to Paradesi Anjaneyulu, J.M. Garg, efloraindia
Your opinion Mr. Garg !
Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

J.M. Garg

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Dec 15, 2020, 10:33:16 AM12/15/20
to Saroj Kasaju, Paradesi Anjaneyulu, efloraindia
Looks different from Cirsium falconeri as per images herein.
Pl. check other species in the checklist. 

--
With regards,
J.M.Garg

Saroj Kasaju

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Dec 15, 2020, 10:36:52 AM12/15/20
to J.M. Garg, Paradesi Anjaneyulu, efloraindia
I did all possible search !
Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

Gurcharan Singh

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Jun 10, 2021, 9:00:58 AM6/10/21
to efloraofindia
Forwarding for ID
This is clearly C. argyracanthus (incl. C. wallichii var. wightii of FBI) easily differentiated by broader inner involucre bracts (but not dilated tips lips like C. wallichii) with spiny tips and characteristic woolly margins, outer with long slender spines
Group discussion at

Gurcharan Singh

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Jun 10, 2021, 9:02:12 AM6/10/21
to indiantreepix, jmgarg1, Saroj Kumar Kasaju
Forwarding for ID
This is clearly C. argyracanthus (incl. C. wallichii var. wightii of FBI) easily differentiated by broader inner involucre bracts (but not dilated tips lips like C. wallichii) with spiny tips and characteristic woolly margins, outer with long slender spines
Group discussion at

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Saroj Kumar Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:28:07 PM UTC+5:30
Subject: Cirsium falconeri (Hook.f.) Petr. (provisionally accepted name) ??
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DSC_0153.JPG

J.M. Garg

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Jun 18, 2021, 10:47:55 AM6/18/21
to Gurcharan Singh, indiantreepix, Saroj Kumar Kasaju
I feel it looks different as per images, references and details at Cirsium argyracanthum
--
With regards,
J.M.Garg

J.M. Garg

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Jun 18, 2021, 10:49:58 AM6/18/21
to Gurcharan Singh, indiantreepix, Saroj Kumar Kasaju
Pl. see GBIF speciemnes. 
--
With regards,
J.M.Garg

J.M. Garg

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Jun 18, 2021, 11:03:09 AM6/18/21
to Gurcharan Singh, indiantreepix, Saroj Kumar Kasaju
POWO and CoL consider Cirsium wallichii var. wightii (Hook. fil.) K. Vivekanathan under  Cirsium wallichii DC. only. And GBIF specimens look different. 
--
With regards,
J.M.Garg

J.M. Garg

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Jun 25, 2021, 2:54:49 AM6/25/21
to Gurcharan Singh, indiantreepix, Saroj Kumar Kasaju
It is Cirsium nishiokae as per GBIF specimens from Nepal- one and two
--
With regards,
J.M.Garg

Saroj Kasaju

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Jun 25, 2021, 5:53:36 AM6/25/21
to J.M. Garg, Gurcharan Singh, indiantreepix
Yes Mr. Garg !
Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

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