ornamental Malvaceae from Hooghly 27/10/12 sk3

48 views
Skip to first unread message

surajit koley

unread,
Oct 27, 2012, 1:28:28 PM10/27/12
to efloraofindia
Sir,

Attaching an ornamental herb found outside a house. It seems to be spreading in the wild too.

H & H : ornamental herb, about 6 feet and smaller
Date : 26/10/12, 10.30 a.m.
Place : Hooghly

Thank you & Regards,

surajit

orn_26oct12_01.jpg
orn_26oct12_02.jpg
orn_26oct12_03.jpg
orn_26oct12_04.jpg
orn_26oct12_05.jpg
orn_26oct12_06.jpg
orn_26oct12_07.jpg

Vijayasankar

unread,
Oct 27, 2012, 4:11:45 PM10/27/12
to surajit koley, efloraofindia
Nice pictures Surajit ji. They look like Hibiscus radiatus to me.
http://saintlucianplants.com/cultivated/hibiradi/hibiradi.html
 
Regards 
 
Vijayasankar Raman
National Center for Natural Products Research
University of Mississippi




--
 
 
 

surajit koley

unread,
Oct 27, 2012, 10:07:57 PM10/27/12
to Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Good morning/evening Vijayasankar Ji,

Yes, this plant looks like the ones in the link you have provided, with 5 lobed leaves.



Thank you very much for the probable ID.

Regards,

surajit

Gurcharan Singh

unread,
Oct 28, 2012, 12:56:40 AM10/28/12
to surajit koley, Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Yes Surajit ji, I have also gone through the discussion and was about to post the differences compiled that I read your notification. In fact the discussion should involve H. cannabinus, H. sabdarifolia (since Flora of Pakistan treats them synonyms), H. trionum (such reputed website as Wikimedia commons shows picture of this as H. cannabinus  .........http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:01767_-_Hibiscus_cannabinus_(Eibisch).JPG), H. radiatus (most often confused with H. cannabinus) and H. surattensis (as supposed parent of H. radiatus, and would have some characters in common). I will try to explore and report. In the mean time here are the differences between the two:

 

 

Hibiscus cannabinus                                 H. radiatus

1. Diploid species                             1. Allotetraploid involving also H. surratensis

2.  Leaves and calyx lobes glandular   2. Leaves and calyx lobes not glandular

3. Epicalyx attached to Calyx             3. Epicalyx free from Calyx

4. Elongate nectary on base of midrib  4. Nectary absent

   Beneath, and midvein of calyx lobes

5.  Calyx white tomentellose                5. Calyx not white tomentose

6.  Epicalyx  segments without            6. Each epicalyx segment with a tooth-like

                                                            appendage just below tip on inner side 

7. Flowers 10-15 cm across                 7. Flowers 7-9 cm across  

This species H. radiatus has already figured in many long discussions on our group. It can be searched from the forum
-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089


--
 
 
 



surajit koley

unread,
Oct 28, 2012, 2:18:37 AM10/28/12
to Gurcharan Singh, Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Thank you very much Sir for taking all the pain and explaining differences. It is H. radiatus Cav. Attaching an image showing inner tooth on epicalyx.

Regards,

surajit

surajit koley

unread,
Oct 28, 2012, 2:21:57 AM10/28/12
to Gurcharan Singh, Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Sorry, forgot to attach the pic, here it is.

Regards,

surajit


tooth_on_epicalyx.jpg

surajit koley

unread,
Oct 28, 2012, 3:19:13 AM10/28/12
to Gurcharan Singh, Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Sir,

Another query i do have now, is it H. radiatus Cav. or is it H. radiatus Wild. ex Roxburgh or is it H. radiatus Sieber ex Steud ? i found all these names in IPNI.

I checked earlier group discussions -

Which H. radiatus this species is?

Thank you very much,
tooth_on_epicalyx.jpg

Gurcharan Singh

unread,
Oct 28, 2012, 10:54:48 AM10/28/12
to surajit koley, Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Yes Surajit ji
In fact there are two other species with this appendage on inner side of calyx:
H. surratensis: The supposed one of the parents of S. radiated where the appendage is much longer so that tip looks forked and outer branch is ovate, flowers yellow with dark red centre, stem strongly prickly with curved prickles, large auriculate stipules and calyx turning red in fruit.



H. hispiidissimus: Also the two branches of epicalyx equally long, outer oblong-ovate, flowers yellow with dark center, stem prickles straight with prominent basal tubercle, stipules lanceolate.


The appendages are much smaller in H. radiatus and corolla red.

surajit koley

unread,
Oct 28, 2012, 11:44:33 AM10/28/12
to Gurcharan Singh, Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Good evening Sir,

This is getting too much complicated to me.

Thank you very much for all the pain, time and patience you have granted me.

Regards,

surajit

surajit koley

unread,
Oct 28, 2012, 9:23:57 PM10/28/12
to Gurcharan Singh, Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Good morning / evening Sir,

If we go to Key no.5 of Hibiscus in FoC we see -

Stems with reflexed or retrorsely curved prickles; epicalyx lobes with
foliaceous appendage at or above middle .....   .................   .........................    ....... 6
Stems usually without prickles; epicalyx lobes with or without appendages ... 8

H. radiatus, H. surattensis & H. hispidissimus are included in the group 6 above and further divided into sub group 7. So, Hibiscus radiatus should have foliaceous appendage on epicalyx.
FoC further informs H. radiatus (i hope H. radiatus Cavanilles) has "stipules filiform". I am attaching 3 more pics that show neither foliaceous appendage nor filiform stipules (pic no. 103).

H. trionum, H. sabdariffa & H. cannabinus are included in the group 8 above and further divided into sub-group 9. It is interesting to note, as per FoC, while H. sabdariffa has spiny appendix on epicalyx H. cannabinus does not.

So, please take a relook at this species before concluding the thread at - https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/iIYJDX1TJjk/discussion.

My last question - is H. radiatus Cav. a synonym of H. radiatus Willd.? If it is so H. radiatus shuld have leaves only upto 5 lobes as per the discussion in https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/_5KjXRQjO9s/discussion.

Thank you & Regards,

surajit


101.jpg
102.jpg
103.jpg

Gurcharan Singh

unread,
Oct 28, 2012, 10:31:39 PM10/28/12
to surajit koley, Vijayasankar, efloraofindia
Surajit ji
Let me explain it this way. There is an appendage on the inner side of epicalyx just below the tip which may be a small tooth or long spicule as long as the outer apical part which as you see slightly more darker green, narrow spoon shaped (or linear-lanceolate). This is what Flora of china refers to foliaceous appendage which may be linear (H. radiatus), ovate-oblong or ovate as I mentioned earlier.
    As far as leaves are concerned have alook at this illustration in Flora of China


there are 6 clear lobes. If understand it correctly the uppermost leaves are 3-lobed or 5-lobed (your images 3 and 4), the lower leaves may have 6- or 7-lobed leaves.

Have said that, who knows my interpretation may be wrong. I have written a detailed note in Fresh Relook of "Gutter Beauty" uploaded earlier by Raghu ji and which I think is same as your plant.


-- 
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

surajit koley

unread,
Oct 28, 2012, 11:11:29 PM10/28/12
to Gurcharan Singh, Vijayasankar, efloraofindia

Aarti S. Khale

unread,
Oct 28, 2012, 11:14:46 PM10/28/12
to indian...@googlegroups.com, surajit koley, Vijayasankar, Aarti S. Khale
Gurcharan ji,
Thanks for showing the differences as lot of confusion for me too.
Regards,
Aarti

Gurcharan Singh

unread,
Oct 29, 2012, 1:45:28 AM10/29/12
to Aarti S. Khale, indian...@googlegroups.com, surajit koley, Vijayasankar
Surajit ji
As I understand The species was named by Willd. and reported in most earlier books as H. radiatus Willd., 1803. The description appeared  in book by Roxburgh, 1832 in greater detail and species came to be known as Willd. ex Roxb., 1832. More recently it has been known that earliest description appeared in   publication by Cavanilles (abbr. Cav.), 1789. H. lindleyi Wall., 1830 is also the name for the same species. Applying the principle of priority, H. radiatus Cav. is taken as correct name for the species.
   And yes, as it appears in FBI flowers may be yellow with dark centre or totally purple.
   Perhaps this statement in book should be important in better understanding (see attachment). 
--
 
 
 




Hibiscus radiatus.jpg

surajit koley

unread,
Oct 29, 2012, 4:15:58 AM10/29/12
to Gurcharan Singh, indian...@googlegroups.com, Vijayasankar
Sir,

i have taken so much of your time i cannot express my gratitude in writing. I can only attach fresh pics, this time with some statistics, measured by scale. But, i could not dig more because of its minute, very sharp prickle.

The flower size conforms the size of H. Radiatus in this thread. Stipules are also filiform.

Thank you very much,

Regards,

surajit
5998.jpg
6000.jpg
6002.jpg
6015.jpg
6019.jpg
6025.jpg
6027.jpg
6032.jpg
6039.jpg
6121.jpg
6124.jpg
6126.jpg
6130.jpg
6131.jpg

ushadi Micromini

unread,
Oct 29, 2012, 4:29:36 AM10/29/12
to surajit koley, Gurcharan Singh, indian...@googlegroups.com, Vijayasankar
so many seeds?
I would like some mature seeds, can you find some?

please
thanks
usha di

--
 
 
 



--
Usha di
===========

surajit koley

unread,
Oct 29, 2012, 9:24:05 AM10/29/12
to ushadi Micromini, indian...@googlegroups.com
Good evening Usha Di,

I took risk of annoying the owner by visiting the place twice within a couple of days. I could not find any fully mature seed-pods there, i think it explodes as soon as it gains maturity, spreading all its seeds.

Moreover, people in general might not be aware of spiny difference between H. cannabinus & H. radiatus. I am not going to invite any legal notice.

Thank you & Regards,

surajit

ushadi Micromini

unread,
Oct 29, 2012, 11:56:16 PM10/29/12
to surajit koley, indian...@googlegroups.com
legal notice?

the name H. cannabinus has nothing to do with the ganja!!!
its just that the leaves reminded some botanist in the past of the similarities...
just like some  "tigris" is similar to tiger paw in a morning glory leaf...


On the other hand if the owner is not friendly, just dont go back... that's ok...
better be safe

usha di
--
Usha di
===========

surajit koley

unread,
Oct 30, 2012, 10:33:54 AM10/30/12
to ushadi Micromini, indian...@googlegroups.com
Usha Di,

Notice for trespassing with dubious intention and intrusion of privacy. Neither i know the owner nor he/she knows me.

Thank you & Regards,

surajit

surajit koley

unread,
Dec 19, 2012, 10:07:48 AM12/19/12
to efloraofindia
Sir,

This plant seems to be an annual, attaching photos recorded today.

Regards,

surajit
DSCN9776.jpg
DSCN9777.jpg
DSCN9778.jpg
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages