ornamental Malvaceae from Hooghly 27/10/12 sk3

[surajit koley]

Sir,

Attaching an ornamental herb found outside a house. It seems to be spreading in the wild too.

Species : Hibiscus cannabinus L. ?

H & H : ornamental herb, about 6 feet and smaller

Date : 26/10/12, 10.30 a.m.

Place : Hooghly

Thank you & Regards,

surajit

[Vijayasankar]

Nice pictures Surajit ji. They look like Hibiscus radiatus to me.
http://saintlucianplants.com/cultivated/hibiradi/hibiradi.html

 

Regards 

 

Vijayasankar Raman
National Center for Natural Products Research
University of Mississippi

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[surajit koley]

Good morning/evening Vijayasankar Ji,

Yes, this plant looks like the ones in the link you have provided, with 5 lobed leaves.

Both GRIN and The Plant List list it. IPNI gives 4 indications.

There is a discussion in the Dave's Garden - http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/59791/#b that claims H. radiatus is an allotetraploid of H. cannabinus and perhaps H. surratensis.

Thank you very much for the probable ID.

Regards,

surajit

[Gurcharan Singh]

Yes Surajit ji, I have also gone through the discussion and was about to post the differences compiled that I read your notification. In fact the discussion should involve H. cannabinus, H. sabdarifolia (since Flora of Pakistan treats them synonyms), H. trionum (such reputed website as Wikimedia commons shows picture of this as H. cannabinus  .........http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:01767_-_Hibiscus_cannabinus_(Eibisch).JPG), H. radiatus (most often confused with H. cannabinus) and H. surattensis (as supposed parent of H. radiatus, and would have some characters in common). I will try to explore and report. In the mean time here are the differences between the two:

 

 

Hibiscus cannabinus                                 H. radiatus

1. Diploid species                             1. Allotetraploid involving also H. surratensis

2.  Leaves and calyx lobes glandular   2. Leaves and calyx lobes not glandular

3. Epicalyx attached to Calyx             3. Epicalyx free from Calyx

4. Elongate nectary on base of midrib  4. Nectary absent

   Beneath, and midvein of calyx lobes

5.  Calyx white tomentellose                5. Calyx not white tomentose

6.  Epicalyx  segments without            6. Each epicalyx segment with a tooth-like

                                                            appendage just below tip on inner side 

7. Flowers 10-15 cm across                 7. Flowers 7-9 cm across  

This species H. radiatus has already figured in many long discussions on our group. It can be searched from the forum

-- 

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

--
 
 
 

[surajit koley]

Thank you very much Sir for taking all the pain and explaining differences. It is H. radiatus Cav. Attaching an image showing inner tooth on epicalyx.

Regards,

surajit

[surajit koley]

Sorry, forgot to attach the pic, here it is.

Regards,

surajit

[surajit koley]

Sir,

Another query i do have now, is it H. radiatus Cav. or is it H. radiatus Wild. ex Roxburgh or is it H. radiatus Sieber ex Steud ? i found all these names in IPNI.

I checked earlier group discussions -

• Hibiscus radiatus Willd. epicalyx 8-10, with linear fork segments, stipules linear; leaves deeply 3-5 lobed.
• The same plant is also in another post - https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/OqM-3okFmnY/discussion

My plant has both 5 lobed and 7 lobed leaves.

• another plant in two posts - https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/05sjq_aJsXE/discussion and https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/ENzQ0-c8r8M/discussion
• Mani Ji has two posts of a single species - https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/R1nukjR15Hw/discussion and https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/XThINa23pkI/discussion
• another post of H. radiatus - https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/vl3Op4XGT2I/discussion
• yet another of H. radiatus - https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/7u0AOu2Hx-o/discussion

And, finally, i myself did once, without knowing anything at all, only by comparing flowers!!! - https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/uwYYeQTeIjw/discussion

Which H. radiatus this species is?

Thank you very much,

[Gurcharan Singh]

Yes Surajit ji

In fact there are two other species with this appendage on inner side of calyx:

H. surratensis: The supposed one of the parents of S. radiated where the appendage is much longer so that tip looks forked and outer branch is ovate, flowers yellow with dark red centre, stem strongly prickly with curved prickles, large auriculate stipules and calyx turning red in fruit.

http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=93512&flora_id=2

http://www.flickr.com/photos/phuonglovejesus2782010/5518881490/

H. hispiidissimus: Also the two branches of epicalyx equally long, outer oblong-ovate, flowers yellow with dark center, stem prickles straight with prominent basal tubercle, stipules lanceolate.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dinesh_valke/4226841707/

The appendages are much smaller in H. radiatus and corolla red.

[surajit koley]

Good evening Sir,

This is getting too much complicated to me.

Thank you very much for all the pain, time and patience you have granted me.

Regards,

surajit

[surajit koley]

Good morning / evening Sir,

If we go to Key no.5 of Hibiscus in FoC we see -

Stems with reflexed or retrorsely curved prickles; epicalyx lobes with

foliaceous appendage at or above middle .....   .................   .........................    ....... 6

Stems usually without prickles; epicalyx lobes with or without appendages ... 8

H. radiatus, H. surattensis & H. hispidissimus are included in the group 6 above and further divided into sub group 7. So, Hibiscus radiatus should have foliaceous appendage on epicalyx.

FoC further informs H. radiatus (i hope H. radiatus Cavanilles) has "stipules filiform". I am attaching 3 more pics that show neither foliaceous appendage nor filiform stipules (pic no. 103).

H. trionum, H. sabdariffa & H. cannabinus are included in the group 8 above and further divided into sub-group 9. It is interesting to note, as per FoC, while H. sabdariffa has spiny appendix on epicalyx H. cannabinus does not.

So, please take a relook at this species before concluding the thread at - https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/iIYJDX1TJjk/discussion.

My last question - is H. radiatus Cav. a synonym of H. radiatus Willd.? If it is so H. radiatus shuld have leaves only upto 5 lobes as per the discussion in https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/_5KjXRQjO9s/discussion.

Thank you & Regards,

surajit

[Gurcharan Singh]

Surajit ji

Let me explain it this way. There is an appendage on the inner side of epicalyx just below the tip which may be a small tooth or long spicule as long as the outer apical part which as you see slightly more darker green, narrow spoon shaped (or linear-lanceolate). This is what Flora of china refers to foliaceous appendage which may be linear (H. radiatus), ovate-oblong or ovate as I mentioned earlier.

    As far as leaves are concerned have alook at this illustration in Flora of China

http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=93512&flora_id=2

there are 6 clear lobes. If understand it correctly the uppermost leaves are 3-lobed or 5-lobed (your images 3 and 4), the lower leaves may have 6- or 7-lobed leaves.

Have said that, who knows my interpretation may be wrong. I have written a detailed note in Fresh Relook of "Gutter Beauty" uploaded earlier by Raghu ji and which I think is same as your plant.

-- 

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/ 
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ 

[surajit koley]

Sir,

I received the mail relating to "Gutter Beauty", so, i decided to take a re-look at my post. I searched and found H. radiatus (Cav. or Willd., don't know which) can be yellow too,

• http://plantillustrations.org/species.php?id_species=513380&language=English
  
• http://www.calhortsociety.org/Plant_Forums/Aug2000/source/5.html
  

Found some pics of epicalyx & stipules of H. radiatus -

• http://www.flickr.com/photos/judymonkey/4004232267/
  
• http://catalog.digitalarchives.tw/item/00/25/e9/93.html
  
• http://www.natureloveyou.sg/Hibiscus%20radiatus/Main.html
  

Found species info, not description -

• "Basionym not applicable or data not available" I do not know what does it mean
• http://www.florida.plantatlas.usf.edu/SpecimenDetails.aspx?PlantID=114
  
• http://www.ville-ge.ch/musinfo/bd/cjb/africa/details.php?langue=an&id=81619
  
• http://plants.jstor.org/search?submit=Rechercher&searchText=Hibiscus+radiatus
  

Thank you & Regards,

surajit

[Aarti S. Khale]

Gurcharan ji,

Thanks for showing the differences as lot of confusion for me too.

Regards,

Aarti

[Gurcharan Singh]

Surajit ji

As I understand The species was named by Willd. and reported in most earlier books as H. radiatus Willd., 1803. The description appeared  in book by Roxburgh, 1832 in greater detail and species came to be known as Willd. ex Roxb., 1832. More recently it has been known that earliest description appeared in   publication by Cavanilles (abbr. Cav.), 1789. H. lindleyi Wall., 1830 is also the name for the same species. Applying the principle of priority, H. radiatus Cav. is taken as correct name for the species.

   And yes, as it appears in FBI flowers may be yellow with dark centre or totally purple.

   Perhaps this statement in book should be important in better understanding (see attachment). 

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[surajit koley]

Sir,

i have taken so much of your time i cannot express my gratitude in writing. I can only attach fresh pics, this time with some statistics, measured by scale. But, i could not dig more because of its minute, very sharp prickle.

The flower size conforms the size of H. Radiatus in this thread. Stipules are also filiform.

Thank you very much,

Regards,

surajit

[ushadi Micromini]

so many seeds?
I would like some mature seeds, can you find some?

please
thanks
usha di

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--
Usha di
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[surajit koley]

Good evening Usha Di,

I took risk of annoying the owner by visiting the place twice within a couple of days. I could not find any fully mature seed-pods there, i think it explodes as soon as it gains maturity, spreading all its seeds.

Moreover, people in general might not be aware of spiny difference between H. cannabinus & H. radiatus. I am not going to invite any legal notice.

Thank you & Regards,

surajit

[ushadi Micromini]

legal notice?

the name H. cannabinus has nothing to do with the ganja!!!
its just that the leaves reminded some botanist in the past of the similarities...
just like some  "tigris" is similar to tiger paw in a morning glory leaf...


On the other hand if the owner is not friendly, just dont go back... that's ok...
better be safe

usha di

--
Usha di
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[surajit koley]

Usha Di,

Notice for trespassing with dubious intention and intrusion of privacy. Neither i know the owner nor he/she knows me.

Thank you & Regards,

surajit

[surajit koley]

Sir,

This plant seems to be an annual, attaching photos recorded today.

Regards,

surajit