Re: Digest for honyaku@googlegroups.com - 17 updates in 3 topics
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Natasha Lutes
Mar 29, 2014, 9:37:39 AM3/29/14
to hon...@googlegroups.com
We play the 'riichi' rule here in Taiwan, but we call it 'Ting pai' (聽牌) (because you're 'listening' for the winning card') and 門清men qing (clean door... because you haven't opened the doors and shown your cards by eating someone else's). The few times I've played Japanese mahjong computer games I've heard the characters say 'riichi' for tingpai.
I really have no idea about Mahjong terminology in English though, I remember trying to teach my grandmother in America and getting very confused by all of the instructions in the manual. As Zachary said, there are different rules in different countries and in different parts of the larger countries (HK MJ is not TW MJ which is probably only played in 1 or 2 places in China) and I think Japan plays a totally different game (it's 13-card there as opposed to 16, I believe?) so.... good luck! Translating pachinko would be hard enough, never mind pachinko and mahjong!
On 29 March 2014 20:20, <hon...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Group: http://groups.google.com/group/honyaku/topics
- Effect of English words on original character count [4 Updates]
- p. 20 target の訳と、psychosis [5 Updates]
- mahjong [8 Updates]
Geoffrey Trousselot <geoff.tr...@gmail.com> Mar 29 08:21AM +0900
I recently received an offer from rather a desperate coordinator with a job
offering a rate that I normally would accept. But the character count that
she quoted was a gross underestimate. The text itself was powerpoint notes
mostly consisting of English terms with 化 or a する after them, and I
wondered how an accurate word count could be made. Because the slides had a
heap of other English that did not need translating, the English nestled in
with the Japanese was probably being totally ignored.
I lost faith in the coordinator and refused the job, as I don't like
coordinators who can't properly count a job. But has anyone else been
caught up with character counts of text that includes an enormous amount of
English terms? Does Microsoft word count give a word count of [English
words + Japanese characters] as the word count when providing the general
word count? I am thinking that each English word needs to be counted as two
characters.
Geoffrey Trousselot
John Stroman <stromana...@gmail.com> Mar 28 08:22PM -0400
[image: Inline image 1]Geoffrey,
I don't know which version of Word you are using, but if the word count
appears in the lower lefthand corner of your Word window, you can click (or
double click) on it to get the detailed information.
When eyeballing a file, 2 characters (including punctuation) = 1 word is
usually a good general estimate, but it varies depending on the writing
style and context. If your file contains lots of katakana, the English word
count will be lower and if it is dense with kanji, the English word count
will be higher.
If you are offered the kind of mixed file you describe, I think you simply
need to negotiate a special rate, perhaps even hourly. The agency will have
a budget already in place, so they'll tell you if you are asking more than
they can (or will) pay.
John Stroman
Jon Johanning <jjoha...@igc.org> Mar 28 11:23PM -0400
Geoffrey,
I thought that Word might give separate counts for Japanese and English (Japanese and alphabetic) characters, but my version, at least, doesn’t.
One possibility I came up with was using a macro in Nisus Writer which generates a list of words (other word processors probably can do it too). When I tried this on a document with mixed J and E, it separated the Japanese and English parts. Then one could just delete the English and end up with a pure J document that could be counted.
Jon Johanning // jjoha...@igc.org
Tom Donahue <arri...@gmail.com> Mar 29 05:53PM +0900
Geoffrey Trousselot wrote:
> Does Microsoft word count give a word count of [English words +
> Japanese characters] as the word count when providing the
> general word count?
Yes. In Word 2010, click the "ABC123" word count button on the far
left of the 校閲 tab. I attached a screen shot so you can see what the
output looks like.
The total char count is 文字数, and 単語数 is the sum of English words and
Japanese chars. You can get the number of English chars by subtracting
Japanese chars from total chars.
Remember to check the check box. That wasn't there in Word 2000, so it
regularly ignored everything in text boxes.
If you are using a CAT tool with an analysis function, another option
would be to look at those statistics. Both of the tools I'm using now
will give you the number of Japanese and English chars.
On one of them, the analysis isn't available to translators, but I
always ask the agency to send it to me before I accept a job. It shows
the amount of internal repetition in the text, which is helpful when
estimating how long it will take to finish.
> I lost faith in the coordinator and refused the job, as I don't like
> coordinators who can't properly count a job.
Maybe she's new. In my experience, coordinators just want to get the
job assigned and aren't as interested as we are in details of counting
characters.
But if possible I think it's a good idea to agree in advance on how to
do this. Different tools will give slightly different counts, so it
helps if everyone is on the same page.
--
Tom Donahue
"Mika J." <mik...@gmail.com> Mar 28 12:21PM -0700
下の原文における target を創薬や
治験の用語として「標的」と訳すと、topicが化学物質になってしまい、ずれてしまいます。平易な一般用語でもあるので曖昧にごまかしやすい便利な英語ですネ。
あとpsychosis は、著者ウィルさんのポッドキャストや、私が実際に精神科スタッフ同士の話すところを耳にした印象では、
レジスターの低い、単なる「気がおかしくなった状態」のことをさしているように思えますが、その辺はいかがでしょう？
皆さんなら、どんな日本語に訳しますか？
Neuroleptic or major tranquilizer drugs are claimed to be “anti-psychotic,”
but in fact do not target psychosis or any specific symptom or mental
disorder.
原文リンク (p.20)：
http://www.willhall.net/files/ComingOffPsychDrugsHarmReductGuide2Edonline.pdf
（前に公開していた英日対訳表には、その後の編集は時間不足で反映できていませんので、あしからず。）
Herman <sl...@lmi.net> Mar 28 02:55PM -0700
On 3/28/2014 12:21, Mika J. wrote:
> Neuroleptic or major tranquilizer drugs are claimed to be
> “anti-psychotic,” but in fact do not target psychosis or any specific
> symptom or mental disorder.
神経弛緩薬又はメジャートランキライザー（強力精神安定剤）は一般に「抗精神
病薬」と呼ばれるが、もっとも、特定の症状や精神障害を対象とする「精神病」
治療薬ではない。
Herman Kahn
"Mika J." <mik...@gmail.com> Mar 28 03:21PM -0700
> 神経弛緩薬又はメジャートランキライザー（強力精神安定剤）は一般に「抗精神
> 病薬」と呼ばれるが、もっとも、特定の症状や精神障害を対象とする「精神病」
> 治療薬ではない。
なるほど、target という動詞を動詞のままに放置せず、（を対象とする）治療薬ではない、とトピックから目をそらさない日本語に訳すとうまくはまりますね。
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
http://inJapanese.us
"Mika J." <mik...@gmail.com> Mar 28 04:16PM -0700
> 神経弛緩薬又はメジャートランキライザー（強力精神安定剤）は一般に「抗精神
> 病薬」と呼ばれるが、もっとも、特定の症状や精神障害を対象とする「精神病」
> 治療薬ではない。
メジャートランキライザーの解説をかっこで補足する手法も日本語読者に親切ですね。
前半の“anti-psychotic” と 後半のpsychosis
の関連性を、「精神病」の反復で出してありますが、これは論理性の維持にとても有効です。
are claimed to be “anti-psychotic,”
のところ、私は最初「いかにも精神錯乱を治せるような印象を与えていますが」と訳して but
の方向付けに備えていたのですが、「一般に」をプラスする方が効率がいいですね。
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
http://inJapanese.us
"Mika J." <mik...@gmail.com> Mar 28 06:57PM -0700
Some of you here may have noticed that I've posted this question to two
mailing lists. Let me share a follow-up that occurred on JAT list, since
it's a closed group, and the idea is worth sharing. http://jat.org/
------
Unlike the verb "target" which can live comfortably in both worlds, the
word 標的とする in Japanese loses its "little arrow's targeting direction"
outside the pharmaceutical field.
My original workaround was, among other things, to add 創薬 to give 標的 its
direction:
（精神病の）症状が具体的な創薬標的として掲げられているわけではない。
or 症状は、創薬の標的にはなっていなかった。
This feeble attempt at keeping the word 標的, however, pales in comparison
when we have the 治療薬ではない solution. With this ending, moreover, 対象とする is
the right choice. 標的とする adds only noise that detracts from topic delivery
of the sentence. Try squeezing 標的 where 対象 is, and it starts jumping up
and down screaming 'hey, look at me, me, me!'
Funny how that happens, but we do want the Japanese output to behave just
like the English one.
神経弛緩薬又はメジャートランキライザー（強力精神安定剤）は一般に「抗精神病薬」と呼ばれるが、特定の症状や精神障害を対象とする「精神病」 治療薬ではない。
------
Thank you John Stroman, who also contributes on honyaku, for his input from
the pharmaceutical perspective.
Mika Jarmusz 清水美香
English to Japanese Translator
http://inJapanese.us
"Mark Spahn" <mark...@verizon.net> Mar 28 03:42PM -0400
I am in the midst of translating an enormous
patent (looks like it will be about 40,000 English
words long) about a pachinko machine that is
so smart that it also plays mahjong. (Can
Skynet be far behind?) What is a good
translation for the mahjong term,
in katakana, "riichi"? An online search says
that the English-language term is "ready hand",
and that the katakana term "riichi" come from
Chinese. So tentatively I am translating
"riichi" as "ready hand [mahjong term 'leechi']".
Good idea? Bad idea?
In reading up on mahjong, I learn that in America
it is a game of yesteryear, having been a fad of
the 1920's, and especially popular among Jewish
ladies of a certain age. It is played with tiles,
making it superficially resemble dominoes, but
the game itself is similar to the card game rummy
(another game of yesteryear, which I haven't
thought of even once, much less played,
since before I was a teenager.)
So what is the status of mahjong in Japan today?
Is it as popular in Japan, and among a similar
demographic, as is Texas Hold 'Em poker in
America? Does a passerby still hear the cry of
"Riichi!" in certain gaming quarters?
-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
P.S. If you're feeling in a gambling mood,
try dialing 1-866-559-0829. Maybe you'll
be lucky enough -- or psychic enough --
to guess the winning six-digit number.
Brian Watson <brian....@gmail.com> Mar 28 12:55PM -0700
> An online search says that the English-language term is "ready hand", and
> that the katakana term "riichi" come from Chinese.
As someone who regularly plays mahjong with Canadians (some of whom are of
Chinese descent and use Chinese terms while playing), I can tell you I have
never heard anything remotely close to leechi in use. The goal in mahjong
is usually not to signal that you're about to have mahjong, so players
rarely indicate that they were close until after someone else declares
mahjong, and we all show our hands.
Brian Watson
+1.604.395.4202 (home office), +1.425.246.7888 (cell), brian-momotaro
(skype)
Alan Siegrist <alanfs...@comcast.net> Mar 28 01:11PM -0700
I have played a fair amount of Mahjong in Japan, and in my understanding, the richi rule is almost unheard of outside of Japan. It is not used in either the Chinese or American versions of the game, so there is probably no common English equivalent of the term. I would thus probably use the Romanized spelling "richi" (with a macron and italicized if desired), and add an explanation on first use if needed.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Carmel, CA, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: "Mark Spahn" <mark...@verizon.net>
Sent: 3/28/2014 12:42 PM
To: "hon...@googlegroups.com" <hon...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: mahjong
I am in the midst of translating an enormous
patent (looks like it will be about 40,000 English
words long) about a pachinko machine that is
so smart that it also plays mahjong. (Can
Skynet be far behind?) What is a good
translation for the mahjong term,
in katakana, "riichi"? An online search says
that the English-language term is "ready hand",
and that the katakana term "riichi" come from
Chinese. So tentatively I am translating
"riichi" as "ready hand [mahjong term 'leechi']".
Good idea? Bad idea?
In reading up on mahjong, I learn that in America
it is a game of yesteryear, having been a fad of
the 1920's, and especially popular among Jewish
ladies of a certain age. It is played with tiles,
making it superficially resemble dominoes, but
the game itself is similar to the card game rummy
(another game of yesteryear, which I haven't
thought of even once, much less played,
since before I was a teenager.)
So what is the status of mahjong in Japan today?
Is it as popular in Japan, and among a similar
demographic, as is Texas Hold 'Em poker in
America? Does a passerby still hear the cry of
"Riichi!" in certain gaming quarters?
-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
P.S. If you're feeling in a gambling mood,
try dialing 1-866-559-0829. Maybe you'll
be lucky enough -- or psychic enough --
to guess the winning six-digit number.
--
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"Eleanor Goldsmith, Kinsho Language Services" <kin...@kinsho.co.nz> Mar 29 09:47AM +1300
Alan Siegrist wrote:
> I have played a fair amount of Mahjong in Japan, and in my understanding, the richi rule is almost unheard of outside of Japan. It is not used in either the Chinese or American versions of the game, so there is probably no common English equivalent of the term. I would thus probably use the Romanized spelling "richi" (with a macron and italicized if desired), and add an explanation on first use if needed.
I'd always associated it with bingo/lotto (which I used to play in English on elementary school visits in my CIR days) and had assumed that リーチ was derived from English, to mean something like "victory is within reach". However, the entry for リーチ on WWWJDIC tells me that it's also written 立直 and derived from the Chinese word pronounced "lizhi".
The Japanese Wikipedia article on リーチ links to a Chinese one, which mentions 日本麻雀, which in turn links to an English one entitled Japanese Mahjong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Mahjong). This confirms what Alan wrote about リーチ (romanized as rīchi in the Wikipedia article) being unique to the Japanese version of the game.
Apparently, there's also a rule called yakitori. It doesn't appear to mean that the loser buys everyone else yakitori, though.
And now, back to the end-of-fiscal-year rush....
Eleanor Goldsmith
Auckland, NZ
"Alan Siegrist" <AlanFS...@Comcast.net> Mar 28 01:57PM -0700
Just for additional corroboration, see the following Wikipedia article on “Japanese Mahjong” (which says the game is also known as Rīchi Mahjong, emphasizing the importance or uniqueness of the rīchi rule), where there is ample explanation in English of the rīchi and other rules specific to the modern Japanese version of Mahjong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Mahjong
As an aside, the kanji for rīchi is said to be立直, and this would be lìzhí if written in modern Chinese Pinyin. I don’t know the source of the term. The rule and term could have been from an older Chinese version of the game, or it may have been simply invented in Japan so立直 might be a sort of ‘faux Chinese’ term invented by Japanese Mahjong players.
I wrote:
I have played a fair amount of Mahjong in Japan, and in my understanding, the richi rule is almost unheard of outside of Japan. It is not used in either the Chinese or American versions of the game, so there is probably no common English equivalent of the term. I would thus probably use the Romanized spelling "richi" (with a macron and italicized if desired), and add an explanation on first use if needed.
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Carmel, CA, USA
"Alan Siegrist" <AlanFS...@Comcast.net> Mar 28 02:14PM -0700
Mark Spahn wrote:
> machine that is so smart that it also plays mahjong. (Can
> Skynet be far behind?) What is a good translation for the
> mahjong term, in katakana, "riichi"?
As I was muddling about in Japanese Wikipedia trying to determine the origin
of rīchi, I found some rather interesting information indicating that rī
chi in pachinko or pachislo machines is derived from, but not the same as
the Mahjong term rīchi. It is also used in Bingo, as mentioned by Eleanor.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%AB%8B%E7%9B%B4#.E8.BB.A2.E7.94.A8
転用
「立直」の語は以下に転用されている。
パチンコで、図柄の変動によって大当たりを期待させるアクションを「リーチ」と呼
ぶ。リーチ (パチンコ)を参照。
パチスロでは、ボーナスが成立した時のみ特別な制御で出現する出目を、リーチ目と
いう。
ビンゴゲームで、ある1つのマスに印がつけば1列に印がそろうようになる状態を「リ
ーチ」と呼ぶ。リーチ (ゲーム)を参照。
その他「落第にリーチがかかった」などと、ある状態が達成される寸前であることを
「リーチ」と呼ぶ。
いずれも普通カタカナで書かれる。
There is even a special article in J Wikipedia describing the use of rīchi
in Pachinko machines, so this might be even more important in this context
than the Mahjong term:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%81_(%E3%83%91%E3%83%81
%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B3)
Regards,
Alan Siegrist
Carmel, CA, USA
"Mark Spahn" <mark...@verizon.net> Mar 28 07:00PM -0400
I should've thought of this before, but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko
has a lot of information about what to call
various pachinko terms in English.
==QUOTE==
When shot, the balls drop through an array of pins; some of them will fall into the center gate and start up the slot machine in the center screen. Every ball that goes into the center gate results in one spin of the slot machine ...
If the first 2 numbers or letters of the spin match up, the digital program will display many animations before the third reel stops spinning, to give the player added excitement. This is called a reach (or reachi) and sometimes longer animations are played called super reaches.
Most [p]achinko machines employ thekakuhen system, where some percentage of the possible jackpots on the digital slot machine result in the odds of hitting the next jackpot multiplying by a large amount ... [This "kakuhen" seems to be an abberviation for "kakuritsu henkou", a change in the probability (of winning).]
==UNQUOTE==
This article also mentions "start pocket", which seems to be a translation for "shidou-guchi" <hajimeru><ugoku><kuchi>, and "win pocket" (nyuushou-guchi?).
This article mentions "a reach (or reachi)" with no reference to mahjong, so maybe I was just jumping to conclusions thinking that the katakana word "riichi" was a mahjong term adapted to pachinko machines. This "riichi" may have come from the English word "reach", having nothing to do with mahjong at all(!). I don't see the metaphorical connection between the meaning of "reach" and the meaning of "riichi". Perhaps it means that when two out of three slot-machine pictures (zugara) match, it's only a short "reach" till you get all three pictures alike, which produces a big win (oo-atari).
At times like these, one regrets the gaps in one's education.
I should have signed up for Pachinko 101 in the
Faculty of Recreation at Asobi Daigaku.
-- Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
Zachary Soter <zach....@gmail.com> Mar 29 10:21AM +0900
--
Hello all,
I agree with Alan about simply translating it as "richi". When I visit
family in China (my wife is Chinese) and we play mahjong there is no such
term,. In fact, the term 立直 is not even recognizable as such in Chinese. It
is only applicable in Japanese mahjong. Lastly, the rules and jargon differ
greatly depending on the region in China. Where I have played in China the
equivalent term in Chinese is 报停.
Hope this helps,
Good luck and best regards,
Zachary Soter
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