Water heater eating X-10 signal
graft...@yahoo.com
I've had a modest X-10 system running in our house for a few years.
It took me a while to get it working reliably enough to get the WAF to
a level where my wife wasn't cursing "HAL" every other day.
Part of that effort involved installing an active phase coupler in our
mains panel. Everything was working pretty well, until we recently
added an electric water heater to the panel.
The water heater is wired to a double pole 30 amp breaker in the panel
via about 60' of 10/2 w/ground (no neutral connection on the heater,
just the two hots). After I installed it I noticed that our X-10
controlled outside lights weren't coming on in the evenings. After a
little troubleshooting I discovered that if I switched off the breaker
for the heater, the X-10 system went back to normal. Switching the
breaker on makes the problem reappear.
I'm guessing that the connection to heater and/or the heater itself is
"sinking" the X-10 signal.
Is there a wired, in-line filter available that I can fit in after the
breaker to block the X-10 signal from the heater and its wiring? Is
that the correct approach in this case?
Thanks.
Jeff Volp
30 amps. The largest is the big XPF, which is rated for 20 amps. It would
take 4 of them to filter both hot leads running to the water heater.
A heavy electrical load across the two phases normally helps X10 signal
distribution, so there must be something more here than just the heater
element. There may be some sort of surge protection shunting the X10 signal
to ground. Perhaps your signals were marginal before adding the heater.
It might be a good idea to invest in a X10 signal level meter, such as the
ESM1, to find out what is really going on. Since filtering a high current
load is not very practical, the only suggestion I have if it is the water
heater is to increase your signal strength beyond what your active phase
coupler can do.
Jeff
<graft...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1176757871....@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Dave Houston
What happens if you disable your active coupler?
http://davehouston.net
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
roZetta-...@yahoogroups.com
Dan Lanciani
| A heavy electrical load across the two phases normally helps X10 signal
| distribution, so there must be something more here than just the heater
| element.
He mentioned that he has an "active phase coupler." If by that he
means what we normally call a repeater and if the repeater is of a
design that drives the two legs out of phase then a heavy leg-to-leg
load will diminish the apparent signal level as the carriers interfere
destructively.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Jeff Volp
news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
Hi Dan,
I had thought of that, but I didn't think any repeater would drive the two
legs out of phase due to that exact issue. Any 240V resistive load, such as
a dryer or stove, would squash the signal. But it is possible...
Jeff
Dan Lanciani
The only repeater whose circuit I've traced (ACT CR230) drives them out
of phase. My understanding has always been that this is the standard
practice in order to accommodate 240V modules which would otherwise have
a difficult time seeing the signal. I assume it is also the reason for
the standard warning about using a repeater in conjunction with the
blocker/coupler. Have you ever encountered a repeater that drives the
legs in phase (ignoring your own designs, of course :)? I have the
original Leviton unit (i.e., the one before the one before the current
one) but I'm not sure it's worth the bother to take it apart and trace
the circuit.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Jeff Volp
news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
>
> of phase. My understanding has always been that this is the standard
> practice in order to accommodate 240V modules which would otherwise have
> a difficult time seeing the signal. I assume it is also the reason for
> the standard warning about using a repeater in conjunction with the
> blocker/coupler. Have you ever encountered a repeater that drives the
> legs in phase (ignoring your own designs, of course :)? I have the
> original Leviton unit (i.e., the one before the one before the current
> one) but I'm not sure it's worth the bother to take it apart and trace
> the circuit.
That's an interesting thought regarding 240V modules. Of course, the
percentage of those is miniscule compared with 120V modules used on
split-phase systems.
Since most X10 modules work fine down to 100 mV, or even lower, it would
take almost perfectly balanced attenuation in both legs for in-phase signals
to null enough at the 240V device to cause a problem. With the small
percentage of 240V devices in service, it would seem to make more sense to
use in-phase drive so 240V resistive loads would not attenuate the signal.
You are correct in your assumption that the XTB-II drives 120KHz in-phase to
both legs. When I tested the XTB-II here, I measured 30Vpp on one leg, and
25Vpp on the other leg due to an imbalance in loading. So, a 240V circuit
would start off with a 5Vpp differential signal at the panel.
The commonly used .1uF passive coupler will drive both legs in-phase, but
the second leg will always be lower in amplitude. That again would provide
sufficient signal to a 240V module bridged across both legs.
I have a couple of the old Leviton 6201s kicking around. If I get a chance,
I'll scope it to see what it does.
Jeff
Dan Lanciani
| That's an interesting thought regarding 240V modules.
Incidentally, it isn't my thought; I'm sure I read it somewhere though
I can't remember where. So I wasn't surprised when I saw how the
CR230 was built.
| Of course, the
| percentage of those is miniscule compared with 120V modules used on
| split-phase systems.
The percentage of 240V modules in my home is exactly 0; hence my
interest in a repeater that drives the legs in phase for less
contention with the blocker/coupler.
| Since most X10 modules work fine down to 100 mV, or even lower, it would
| take almost perfectly balanced attenuation in both legs for in-phase signals
| to null enough at the 240V device to cause a problem.
I'm not sure it's that simple. The imbalance required depends on the
strength of the signal at the receiver. If it is already near the sensitivity
threshold then a 50% imbalance could still be insufficient to avoid trouble.
This is basically the generic carrier interference argument where if the
signals are strong enough to begin with then even their difference is likely
sufficient to operate a module. It's why you typically don't see a carrier
interference problem with multiple synchronized transmitters collocated at a
receiver. For a simple protocol, X10 can lead to some pretty complicated
analysis...
| With the small
| percentage of 240V devices in service, it would seem to make more sense to
| use in-phase drive so 240V resistive loads would not attenuate the signal.
I certainly can't see any downside, but then I don't have any 240V receivers.
Possibly the repeater designers know something we don't. I suppose if I
were building a repeater product I'd be tempted to make it a switchable option.
There's something unaesthetic about driving what amounts to a differential
line pair in phase and hoping for random impairments to make it work. :)
| You are correct in your assumption that the XTB-II drives 120KHz in-phase to
| both legs.
Not an assumption; I asked you before. :)
| The commonly used .1uF passive coupler will drive both legs in-phase, but
| the second leg will always be lower in amplitude. That again would provide
| sufficient signal to a 240V module bridged across both legs.
It depends. What if the sensitivity of the 240V module is 100mV, it is
currently seeing 100mV on one leg and 0V on the other, and the passive
coupler causes 50mV to appear on the previously-0V leg?
I keep meaning to check whether the official passive coupler flips the
phase. It uses transformers on both sides so it certainly could. My
brief experience with it was quite negative with previously working
transmitter/receiver pairs failing once the coupler was switched in.
Something funny was going on and since there was already significant
passive coupling I wonder if it was somehow producing cancellation.
Of course, this was at a time when I was lucky to have 50mV levels
at some locations.
I'm pretty sure that the blocker/coupler cannot flip the phase because
of the way it blocks, and it was with that device that they started
warning about combination with a repeater.
| I have a couple of the old Leviton 6201s kicking around. If I get a chance,
| I'll scope it to see what it does.
I have the original (two black wires and one white; does not support
extended codes). There was a second rev that supported extended codes
and could drive a third phase but had an absurd power-on sequence
requirement. They were both the same part number, right?
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Slammer
news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
> Jeff...@msn.com (Jeff Volp) writes:
>
> | That's an interesting thought regarding 240V modules.
>
> Incidentally, it isn't my thought; I'm sure I read it somewhere though
> I can't remember where. So I wasn't surprised when I saw how the
> CR230 was built.
>
> | Of course, the
> | percentage of those is miniscule compared with 120V modules used on
> | split-phase systems.
>
> The percentage of 240V modules in my home is exactly 0; hence my
> interest in a repeater that drives the legs in phase for less
> contention with the blocker/coupler.
>
> | Since most X10 modules work fine down to 100 mV, or even lower, it would
> | take almost perfectly balanced attenuation in both legs for in-phase
> signals
> | to null enough at the 240V device to cause a problem.
>
I am having a hard time with the phrase "in phase" here. Why the worry over
"the phase of the signal" between different legs of the circuit? I get the
feeling you both think the reason that neutral is at 0 volts potential is
that, the voltage waveforms on each leg destructively interfere with each
other due to phase cancellation and not simply as a consequence of vector
addition. I mean that's fine but its hardly the standard model for analysis
of a split-phase power circuit. I suppose you could look at that way but
this has nothing to do with the X10 signal.
As to 240V modules, I'd be surprized if they just didn't listen on one leg
only, since there is no return path for the signal, if one listened only
between legs as that is isolated from neutral--the designated return path of
the source which IS on one leg.
Slammer
Dan Lanciani
| I am having a hard time with the phrase "in phase" here. Why the worry over
| "the phase of the signal" between different legs of the circuit?
It's germane to the question that started this thread, i.e., why would
adding a leg-to-leg load to an otherwise working system that uses a
repeater induce failure?
| I get the
| feeling you both think the reason that neutral is at 0 volts potential is
| that, the voltage waveforms on each leg destructively interfere with each
| other due to phase cancellation and not simply as a consequence of vector
| addition.
The neutral is often defined as being at 0V potential by convention (and,
pragmatically, because it is usually bonded to a grounding system). It
really has nothing to do with interference or the vector addition that
can represent same. In reality, only potential _differences_ are meaningful
and you could just as well choose something other than the neutral as your
0V reference if it makes the analysis easier. Many X10 modules use a hot
leg (rather than neutral) as their logic 0V reference. It is convenient to
adopt that convention when working on such circuits since otherwise you
have to deal with Vcc being a 5V DC signal added to the 120V line supply
with respect to neutral.
| As to 240V modules, I'd be surprized if they just didn't listen on one leg
| only,
How exactly would you propose that a 240V module listen on one leg only?
Remember, you can't measure potentials; you can measure only potential
_differences_.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Dave Houston
>In article <04YUh.314346$5j1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Jeff...@msn.com (Jeff Volp) writes:
>
>| That's an interesting thought regarding 240V modules.
>
>Incidentally, it isn't my thought; I'm sure I read it somewhere though
>I can't remember where. So I wasn't surprised when I saw how the
>CR230 was built.
Phil Kingery mentions phase-to-phase cancellation and 240V modules in at
least one of his coupler/repeater articles.
http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/jun97/articles/kingery/kingery3.htm
Jeff Volp
news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
> Jeff...@msn.com (Jeff Volp) writes:
>
> | Since most X10 modules work fine down to 100 mV, or even lower, it would
> | take almost perfectly balanced attenuation in both legs for in-phase
> signals
> | to null enough at the 240V device to cause a problem.
>
> I'm not sure it's that simple. The imbalance required depends on the
> strength of the signal at the receiver. If it is already near the
> sensitivity
> threshold then a 50% imbalance could still be insufficient to avoid
> trouble.
> This is basically the generic carrier interference argument where if the
> signals are strong enough to begin with then even their difference is
> likely
> sufficient to operate a module. It's why you typically don't see a
> carrier
> interference problem with multiple synchronized transmitters collocated at
> a
> receiver. For a simple protocol, X10 can lead to some pretty complicated
> analysis...
I thought a bit more about this since my earlier post. A 240V load should
be on its own circuit. There shouldn't be any "signal suckers" on that
circuit other than potentially the 240V load itself. So the starting signal
will be the differential level at the panel. In an installation with
balanced loads, a repeater would produce essentially the same signal level
on both legs. So, that could present a problem for 240V loads if both
phases were driven in phase.
> | With the small
> | percentage of 240V devices in service, it would seem to make more sense
> to
> | use in-phase drive so 240V resistive loads would not attenuate the
> signal.
>
> I certainly can't see any downside, but then I don't have any 240V
> receivers.
> Possibly the repeater designers know something we don't. I suppose if I
> were building a repeater product I'd be tempted to make it a switchable
> option.
> There's something unaesthetic about driving what amounts to a differential
> line pair in phase and hoping for random impairments to make it work. :)
The differential line pair only refers to driving a 240V load, which you
agree is rare. I think the better approach is to provide best performance
for normal 120V loads, which are probably over 99% of X10 devices. I don't
like the possiblity of a 240V resistive load possbily causing havoc with
signal levels. If the installaton does include a 240V load that has a
problem with signal levels, it could be addressed by placing a .1uF
capacitor to neutral on one of the hot leads to imbalance the signal levels.
> | The commonly used .1uF passive coupler will drive both legs in-phase,
> but
> | the second leg will always be lower in amplitude. That again would
> provide
> | sufficient signal to a 240V module bridged across both legs.
>
> It depends. What if the sensitivity of the 240V module is 100mV, it is
> currently seeing 100mV on one leg and 0V on the other, and the passive
> coupler causes 50mV to appear on the previously-0V leg?
Yes, it does depend on the loads on the other phase. However, with a
reactive impedance of 13 ohms, there should be significant signal drop from
one leg to the other in a normal installation. With no other "signal
suckers" in the path to the 240V load, the only thing to contend with is the
signal loss in the cable run itself.
> I keep meaning to check whether the official passive coupler flips the
> phase. It uses transformers on both sides so it certainly could. My
> brief experience with it was quite negative with previously working
> transmitter/receiver pairs failing once the coupler was switched in.
> Something funny was going on and since there was already significant
> passive coupling I wonder if it was somehow producing cancellation.
> Of course, this was at a time when I was lucky to have 50mV levels
> at some locations.
That was an easy test to do - just confirmed an old Leviton 6299 does flip
the phases. Interesting is that its peak coupling is at 134KHz.
> | I have a couple of the old Leviton 6201s kicking around. If I get a
> chance,
> | I'll scope it to see what it does.
>
> I have the original (two black wires and one white; does not support
> extended codes). There was a second rev that supported extended codes
> and could drive a third phase but had an absurd power-on sequence
> requirement. They were both the same part number, right?
My two have two blacks, a white and a red. So that must be the newer 6201.
I'll test it after I get a couple more XTB-IIs assembled.
Jeff
Dan Lanciani
| I thought a bit more about this since my earlier post. A 240V load should
| be on its own circuit. There shouldn't be any "signal suckers" on that
| circuit other than potentially the 240V load itself. So the starting signal
| will be the differential level at the panel. In an installation with
| balanced loads, a repeater would produce essentially the same signal level
| on both legs. So, that could present a problem for 240V loads if both
| phases were driven in phase.
Yes, I suspect this is why they decided to give the advantage to 240V
modules. The "difference of large signals" argument applies just as
well from the point of view of 120V modules with the legs driven out of
phase, but it is probably even more unlikely that the drop on one leg
will be exactly matched by the net coupling from the other leg through
the various 240V loads. As I've often said, the analysis here is more
complicated than it might at first appear. :)
| The differential line pair only refers to driving a 240V load, which you
| agree is rare.
I agree that it's rare in my house. If I had a few 240V modules that
weren't behaving I might sing a different tune. Having a switch at
least gives you a choice.
| I think the better approach is to provide best performance
| for normal 120V loads, which are probably over 99% of X10 devices. I don't
| like the possiblity of a 240V resistive load possbily causing havoc with
| signal levels.
It is not at all clear that this is common occurrence, though. If (as
I suspect) it turns out that all commonly available repeaters drive the
legs out of phase we would probably have to do a lot more investigation
to determine why it (may have) happened in this case. Also, keep in mind
that driving the legs out of phase does not make 240V loads a special
problem wrt reducing the signal; they will have approximately the same
effect as two 120V loads of similar power. If a 240V load causes a
problem it may simply mean that the signal levels were already on the
edge. Driving the legs in phase mostly takes the 240V loads out of the
picture, but not necessarily without a cost:
Consider that driving the legs in phase means that every 120V load will
be coupling the carrier in-phase to the neutral, reducing the apparent
leg-to-neutral signal available to all 120V modules. In a distribution
system where the 120V loads are reasonably well distributed between the
legs the loss of the ability to cancel the carrier current in the neutral
may dominate any advantage gained by taking 240V loads out of the picture.
It would take a lot more analysis to convince me that driving the legs
in-phase is in fact (at least on average) the way to provide the best
performance for 120V loads.
| If the installaton does include a 240V load that has a
| problem with signal levels, it could be addressed by placing a .1uF
| capacitor to neutral on one of the hot leads to imbalance the signal levels.
You'd probably have to put the capacitor at the panel since pure 240V
loads don't normally have a neutral available. In addition to the code
issues you wouldn't have the advantage of the series impedance of the
line feeding the device to help drop the level, so you would be trying
to unbalance the whole system.
| That was an easy test to do - just confirmed an old Leviton 6299 does flip
| the phases.
That certainly confirms the behavior I saw.
| Interesting is that its peak coupling is at 134KHz.
Maybe just poor QC?
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Jeff Volp
news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
> Jeff...@msn.com (Jeff Volp) writes:
>
> | I think the better approach is to provide best performance
> | for normal 120V loads, which are probably over 99% of X10 devices. I
> don't
> | like the possiblity of a 240V resistive load possbily causing havoc with
> | signal levels.
>
> It is not at all clear that this is common occurrence, though. If (as
> I suspect) it turns out that all commonly available repeaters drive the
> legs out of phase we would probably have to do a lot more investigation
> to determine why it (may have) happened in this case. Also, keep in mind
> that driving the legs out of phase does not make 240V loads a special
> problem wrt reducing the signal; they will have approximately the same
> effect as two 120V loads of similar power. If a 240V load causes a
> problem it may simply mean that the signal levels were already on the
> edge. Driving the legs in phase mostly takes the 240V loads out of the
> picture, but not necessarily without a cost:
Many houses have 240V high-current resistive heating loads (ranges and
dryers). The inductance of those circuits would be relatively low, so the
effect may be more significant than a variety of 120V loads that sum up to
the same current.
You are correct that 120KHz distribution over household electrical wiring is
a complex problem. When I was working on the XTB-II output stage I built a
rudimentary simulation using 8 circuits with line inductance, a variety of
loads, and a few signal suckers. It mirrors the decay of signal ampltude
that is normally seen as the distance from the panel increases. Running a
frequency sweep shows peaks and nulls all over the place, along swith some
significant phase shift on some of the circuits.
> Consider that driving the legs in phase means that every 120V load will
> be coupling the carrier in-phase to the neutral, reducing the apparent
> leg-to-neutral signal available to all 120V modules. In a distribution
> system where the 120V loads are reasonably well distributed between the
> legs the loss of the ability to cancel the carrier current in the neutral
> may dominate any advantage gained by taking 240V loads out of the picture.
> It would take a lot more analysis to convince me that driving the legs
> in-phase is in fact (at least on average) the way to provide the best
> performance for 120V loads.
At first I thought you had a point here, but remember that each neutral goes
back to the distribution panel common bus. It doesn't make any difference
on each of the 120V circuits what the phase is because there is no summing
together of the return signals on a common netural. Of course, that assumes
the transmitter is relatively close to the distrbution panel so the summed
return signals in its own neutral can be ignored.
> | If the installaton does include a 240V load that has a
> | problem with signal levels, it could be addressed by placing a .1uF
> | capacitor to neutral on one of the hot leads to imbalance the signal
> levels.
>
> You'd probably have to put the capacitor at the panel since pure 240V
> loads don't normally have a neutral available. In addition to the code
> issues you wouldn't have the advantage of the series impedance of the
> line feeding the device to help drop the level, so you would be trying
> to unbalance the whole system.
That is true if there is no netural at the 240V X10 load. Receptacles for
all our 240V appliances ARE wired with both neutral and ground. I had to
buy a new dryer cord for our old Maytag dryer. I was told that is a NEC
requirement now.
Jeff
graft...@yahoo.com
> ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
>
> >| That's an interesting thought regarding 240V modules.
>
> >Incidentally, it isn't my thought; I'm sure I read it somewhere though
> >I can't remember where. So I wasn't surprised when I saw how the
> >CR230 was built.
>
> Phil Kingery mentions phase-to-phase cancellation and 240V modules in at
> least one of his coupler/repeater articles.
>
> http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/jun97/articles/kingery/kingery3.htm
>
> http://davehouston.nethttp://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/roZetta/
I have not tried removing the coupler, I'll give that a shot and post
my results. By the way, it's a Leviton coupler (sorry, don't have the
exact model # at hand, but I do remember it has a black face.)
I do happen to have an ESM-1 - I'll try to use that to supply more
info.
Thanks very much for the help - and for the interesting technical
discussion (although I must admit I was left in the dust about halfway
through.)
Dave Houston
Simply put, it's possible the hot water heater, when on, is acting like a
passive coupler and cancelling your active coupler on one of the phases.
It's an unusual problem.
Dan Lanciani
| Many houses have 240V high-current resistive heating loads (ranges and
| dryers). The inductance of those circuits would be relatively low, so the
| effect may be more significant than a variety of 120V loads that sum up to
| the same current.
Just to clarify something: when you talk about the effect of 240V loads
is the concern that they lower the impedance of the whole network as
seen at the repeater significantly compared to the impedance of the
repeater's drivers such that you can observe a lower carrier level at
the repeater itself?
| At first I thought you had a point here, but remember that each neutral goes
| back to the distribution panel common bus. It doesn't make any difference
| on each of the 120V circuits what the phase is because there is no summing
| together of the return signals on a common netural.
You are ignoring multi-wire branch circuits and sub-panels (themselves
essentially big multi-wire branch circuits). I don't know whether this
is a reasonable simplification to make in general, but it would almost
certainly not be appropriate for my house which has more than its share
of both.
| Of course, that assumes
| the transmitter is relatively close to the distrbution panel so the summed
| return signals in its own neutral can be ignored.
As long as we are assuming that, it would probably also be reasonable to
assume that we can ignore any loss in the repeater's hot leg connections
along with any losses in the single panel's bus bars, breakers, etc. With
this model, it appears that the only way a load on one circuit can affect
the signal level on another circuit is by driving the level down at the
repeater itself by presenting a relatively low impedance compared to that
of the repeater's drivers. This conclusion seems to conflict with my
observations where the level at a repeater can remain constant (high)
while switching a given circuit in and out changes the level seen on
another circuit. This makes me worry that the model is now _too_
simple. :(
N.B. I'm still very interested in the possibility of a repeater that
drives the legs in phase (especially for use where a blocker/coupler
is required) as I mentioned the last time this topic came up over a
year ago:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.home.automation/msg/c638afa65ef96d86
But you are going to have to work a little harder to convince me that
ACT/X10/etc. got it wrong for the general case, even if you found their
choice surprising.... :)
| That is true if there is no netural at the 240V X10 load. Receptacles for
| all our 240V appliances ARE wired with both neutral and ground. I had to
| buy a new dryer cord for our old Maytag dryer. I was told that is a NEC
| requirement now.
Electric dryers and most electric stoves are not pure 240V loads; they
are 240V/120V loads and they have always had a neutral. For many years
the NEC allowed dryers and stoves to ground their chassis to the neutral
in order to save copper (think wartime). This is why their receptacles
and cords could in many cases be 3-wire. The exception did not apply if
the appliance was fed from a sub-panel and it never applied in mobile homes,
so happily all existing appliances had to be made to adapt to either 3- or
4-wire hookups. Recently the NEC removed the exemption for dryer and
stove circuits (in new construction) so now all 240V/120V circuits must
be installed with separate neutral and ground. You may continue to use
existing 3-wire circuits even for new dryers and stoves.
None of this has anything to do with pure 240V circuits of the type
for which X10 makes modules. Such circuits never had a neutral and
never will. See for example:
http://www.x10.com/automation/hd245_s.html
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Jeff Volp
news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
> Jeff...@msn.com (Jeff Volp) writes:
>
> | Many houses have 240V high-current resistive heating loads (ranges and
> | dryers). The inductance of those circuits would be relatively low, so
> the
> | effect may be more significant than a variety of 120V loads that sum up
> to
> | the same current.
>
> Just to clarify something: when you talk about the effect of 240V loads
> is the concern that they lower the impedance of the whole network as
> seen at the repeater significantly compared to the impedance of the
> repeater's drivers such that you can observe a lower carrier level at
> the repeater itself?
I'm not sure I understand your question. I think a low-impedance 240V
resistive load with relatively low inductance can act as a "super signal
sucker" if the two legs are driven out of phase at 120KHz. I would expect
some decrease in signal level at the repeater when confronted with such a
load, especially if that repeater has a transformerless power supply.
> | At first I thought you had a point here, but remember that each neutral
> goes
> | back to the distribution panel common bus. It doesn't make any
> difference
> | on each of the 120V circuits what the phase is because there is no
> summing
> | together of the return signals on a common netural.
>
> You are ignoring multi-wire branch circuits and sub-panels (themselves
> essentially big multi-wire branch circuits). I don't know whether this
> is a reasonable simplification to make in general, but it would almost
> certainly not be appropriate for my house which has more than its share
> of both.
By multi-wire branch circuits, you are referring to 120V circuits fed off
both legs with a common neutral. Yes, the X10 signals would sum on that
common. I suppose it would be possible that each leg might have several X10
loads, but I think that is reaching pretty hard to find something that might
have a problem.
I did not consider multiple sub-panels. It would be intersting to find out
how much signal is lost in the heavy cable run between sub-panels.
> | Of course, that assumes
> | the transmitter is relatively close to the distrbution panel so the
> summed
> | return signals in its own neutral can be ignored.
>
> As long as we are assuming that, it would probably also be reasonable to
> assume that we can ignore any loss in the repeater's hot leg connections
> along with any losses in the single panel's bus bars, breakers, etc. With
> this model, it appears that the only way a load on one circuit can affect
> the signal level on another circuit is by driving the level down at the
> repeater itself by presenting a relatively low impedance compared to that
> of the repeater's drivers. This conclusion seems to conflict with my
> observations where the level at a repeater can remain constant (high)
> while switching a given circuit in and out changes the level seen on
> another circuit. This makes me worry that the model is now _too_
> simple. :(
Actually, here I saw the combined loads have a significant effect on the
XTB-II output. The XTB-II will output over 40Vpp with no load. I measured
one leg at 25Vpp, and the other leg at 30Vpp when it was connected to the
panel. With only a couple of feet of wire between the XTB-II and the panel,
the levels were the same at the XTB-II and inside the panel itself. While I
don't have measurements to back it up, I would expect that switching off all
breakers on either leg would increase the level on that bus back to 40Vpp.
> N.B. I'm still very interested in the possibility of a repeater that
> drives the legs in phase (especially for use where a blocker/coupler
> is required) as I mentioned the last time this topic came up over a
> year ago:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.home.automation/msg/c638afa65ef96d86
Now that I've finally finished with my tax return, I've started back on the
enhanced repeater version of the XTB-II. That will drive both legs in
phase.
BTW, thanks for the info on the stove/dryer receptacles. I had thought the
3rd prong was ground.
Jeff
Dan Lanciani
| I'm not sure I understand your question. I think a low-impedance 240V
| resistive load with relatively low inductance can act as a "super signal
| sucker" if the two legs are driven out of phase at 120KHz.
Often when referring to "signal suckers" people are talking about local
loads that effectively form a voltage divider in combination with the
line back to the transmitter (repeater, whatever). Usually the transmitter
itself is not noticeably loaded. Under the simplified model we discussed a
240V load on a dedicated circuit would pretty much have to impair the
signal at the transmitter to cause a problem.
| I would expect
| some decrease in signal level at the repeater when confronted with such a
| load, especially if that repeater has a transformerless power supply.
So you are thinking that even though the repeater's driver might have an
impedance in the fractional ohms there isn't enough power available
from the supply to maintain voltage? That might be reasonably easy to
instrument directly with a meter on the supply rail of my spare/repaired
CR230 (which uses the typical reactive power supply).
| By multi-wire branch circuits, you are referring to 120V circuits fed off
| both legs with a common neutral.
Yes, also knows as Edison circuits.
| Yes, the X10 signals would sum on that
| common. I suppose it would be possible that each leg might have several X10
| loads,
It's not just X10 loads; it's any loads. And it doesn't take more than
one per leg, though obviously for this to be meaningful in the case of
one load per leg at least one load has to be interested in hearing X10.
| but I think that is reaching pretty hard to find something that might
| have a problem.
I'm not looking for a problem; I'm looking for pros of each approach. I
probably should not have phrased it in terms of giving something up. So
far, out-of-phase drive appears to offer 240V module compatibility and
the ability to take advantage of shared neutral configurations in much
the same way the power distribution system itself does. In-phase drive
allows you to use a smaller power supply and/or higher impedance drivers
in the face of 240V loads and may offer better compatibility with in-phase
couplers.
These are all pretty minor features, and I'm not convinced that the problem
you fear from 240V loads is any more an issue in real life than the ability
to take advantage of multiwire branch circuits. I brought it up only
because the original poster's fact pattern was unusual. At least to me the
optimal choice is far from obvious and I would still be inclined to make it
an option if I were building a repeater product.
| Actually, here I saw the combined loads have a significant effect on the
| XTB-II output. The XTB-II will output over 40Vpp with no load. I measured
| one leg at 25Vpp, and the other leg at 30Vpp when it was connected to the
| panel.
Was this due to the output impedance of your drivers or a sagging power
supply?
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Jeff Volp
news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
> Jeff...@msn.com (Jeff Volp) writes:
>
> Often when referring to "signal suckers" people are talking about local
> loads that effectively form a voltage divider in combination with the
> line back to the transmitter (repeater, whatever). Usually the
> transmitter
> itself is not noticeably loaded. Under the simplified model we discussed
> a
> 240V load on a dedicated circuit would pretty much have to impair the
> signal at the transmitter to cause a problem.
That is really the only way signal suckers can effect other circuits on that
phase.
> | I would expect
> | some decrease in signal level at the repeater when confronted with such
> a
> | load, especially if that repeater has a transformerless power supply.
>
> So you are thinking that even though the repeater's driver might have an
> impedance in the fractional ohms there isn't enough power available
> from the supply to maintain voltage? That might be reasonably easy to
> instrument directly with a meter on the supply rail of my spare/repaired
> CR230 (which uses the typical reactive power supply).
Since the transformerless power supply cannot provide that much energy, I
don't think the output impedance is in the fractional ohm region.
> | By multi-wire branch circuits, you are referring to 120V circuits fed
> off
> | both legs with a common neutral.
>
> Yes, also knows as Edison circuits.
>
> | Yes, the X10 signals would sum on that
> | common. I suppose it would be possible that each leg might have several
> X10
> | loads,
>
> It's not just X10 loads; it's any loads. And it doesn't take more than
> one per leg, though obviously for this to be meaningful in the case of
> one load per leg at least one load has to be interested in hearing X10.
I thought we were discussing summing of in-phase X10 signals on the neutral
reducing the end-point signal strength. That would only be true if there
were multiple X10 loads (or signal suckers) on both legs of that circuit.
> | but I think that is reaching pretty hard to find something that might
> | have a problem.
>
> I'm not looking for a problem; I'm looking for pros of each approach. I
> probably should not have phrased it in terms of giving something up. So
> far, out-of-phase drive appears to offer 240V module compatibility and
> the ability to take advantage of shared neutral configurations in much
> the same way the power distribution system itself does. In-phase drive
> allows you to use a smaller power supply and/or higher impedance drivers
> in the face of 240V loads and may offer better compatibility with in-phase
> couplers.
The XTB and XTB-II do not use a smaller supply or higher impedance drivers.
They both use a 6-watt transformer supply. The supply is unregulated, and
drops about 25% during transmission. The TW523 spec says it will deliver
5Vpp across a 5 ohm load. On the bench I measured the XTB-II delivering
30Vpp across a 5 ohm resistive load. That's actually about 35 times the
power of a normal X10 transmitter. The output impedance looks like about .5
ohm.
> These are all pretty minor features, and I'm not convinced that the
> problem
> you fear from 240V loads is any more an issue in real life than the
> ability
> to take advantage of multiwire branch circuits. I brought it up only
> because the original poster's fact pattern was unusual. At least to me
> the
> optimal choice is far from obvious and I would still be inclined to make
> it
> an option if I were building a repeater product.
>
> | Actually, here I saw the combined loads have a significant effect on the
> | XTB-II output. The XTB-II will output over 40Vpp with no load. I
> measured
> | one leg at 25Vpp, and the other leg at 30Vpp when it was connected to
> the
> | panel.
>
> Was this due to the output impedance of your drivers or a sagging power
> supply?
Since a common power stage drives both output coupling networks, it is due
to the fractional ohm impedance across the coupling networks. Note that the
higher level was on our "X10 phase" and the lower level was on the phase
used to power "unfriendly" loads.
The voltages above were measured at the panel. Signal levels decrease as
they propogate away from the panel due to the combined effect of line
inductance and attenuation from distributed loads.
Jeff
Dan Lanciani
| Since the transformerless power supply cannot provide that much energy, I
| don't think the output impedance is in the fractional ohm region.
I was considering the impedance of the driver separately from the supply
characteristics. That wouldn't be a nice thing to do in an advertisement,
but for our purposes it allows an easy measurement. There doesn't appear
to be anything special about ACT's reactive power supply and it should be
possible to see it slump in the presense of heavy 240V loads if that is
indeed an issue.
| I thought we were discussing summing of in-phase X10 signals on the neutral
| reducing the end-point signal strength. That would only be true if there
| were multiple X10 loads (or signal suckers) on both legs of that circuit.
I should perhaps have chosen my words more carefully, e.g.: any
load with impedance (at the X10 carrier frequency) too low to ignore.
Multiple loads per leg are not required. In the case of a single load
on the opposing leg with in-phase drive that load hurts you; in the
case of out-of-phase drive it helps you. Repeat as needed for additional
loads. To the extent that the loads approach balance with an out-of-phase
drive the impedance of the neutral between the supply and the first load
(possibly along with other segments) drops out of the picture. In the
best case this is like getting a free 50% reduction in cable length.
This may or may not be a material effect in the real world; however,
given that the analogous effect for power transmission is viewed as
significant and given that the relative loss at X10 carrier frequencies
is considerably greater I'm not willing to dismiss it out of hand.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Jeff Volp
news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
I wanted to follow this up. The SmartHome SignaLinc 4816H apparently
consists of nothing more than a 1.uF capacitor and 18 uH inductor in series.
So, that drives both legs in phase.
Jeff
Dan Lanciani
Is that a .1uF capacitor? That would give about the right resonance
frequency with standard components.
| So, that drives both legs in phase.
I'll bet it would have worked a lot better for me than the 6299. I
also noticed that we went through approximately this same discussion
10+ years ago, e.g., see:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.home.automation/msg/7e7815cbb7cae2e8
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.home.automation/msg/e2ec87fedbbecadc
which suggest that either there was a different 6299 or else Phil Kingery
wasn't aware that it flipped the phase. Oddly, in the Hometoys article
Dave referenced earlier in this thread, the simplified schematic of the
passive coupler appears intended to flip the phase but Phil still talks
about the problem of 240V devices as if it did not.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Jeff Volp
news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
> In article <LXPWh.68402$VU4....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Jeff...@msn.com (Jeff Volp) writes:
> | "Dan Lanciani" <ddl@danlan.*com> wrote in message
> | news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
> | > In article
> <9iqVh.322422$5j1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> | > Jeff...@msn.com (Jeff Volp) writes:
> | >
> | > | That was an easy test to do - just confirmed an old Leviton 6299
> | > does flip the phases.
> | >
> | > That certainly confirms the behavior I saw.
> |
> | I wanted to follow this up. The SmartHome SignaLinc 4816H apparently
> | consists of nothing more than a 1.uF capacitor and 18 uH inductor in
> series.
>
> Is that a .1uF capacitor? That would give about the right resonance
> frequency with standard components.
Yes. Incidentally, it is exactly what I recommended here:
http://jeffvolp.home.att.net/x10_info/x10_couplers.htm
The XTB and XTB-II use .22uF and 8.2uH.
> | So, that drives both legs in phase.
>
> I'll bet it would have worked a lot better for me than the 6299. I
> also noticed that we went through approximately this same discussion
> 10+ years ago, e.g., see:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.home.automation/msg/7e7815cbb7cae2e8
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.home.automation/msg/e2ec87fedbbecadc
>
> which suggest that either there was a different 6299 or else Phil Kingery
> wasn't aware that it flipped the phase. Oddly, in the Hometoys article
> Dave referenced earlier in this thread, the simplified schematic of the
> passive coupler appears intended to flip the phase but Phil still talks
> about the problem of 240V devices as if it did not.
Interesting. My Leviton 6299 is an old unit I picked up some time ago on
eBay.
That was not a simplified schematic. The two blue blobs are MOVs. The
series caps are .22uF 360VAC (yes, VAC). The small caps are both 1000pf.
The inductors are little tunable transfomers, like those used in X10
modules. I re-checked the 6299. It is definately out of phase, and peaks
at 134KHz. That probably means the tunable transformers weren't quite
adjusted properly.
The Leviton 6299 and X10 XPCP used to be identical. X10 recently changed
the XPCP to a "Decora" form factor. The older version is still available on
eBay. The new one is riveted closed, so I don't know what is in it.
However, it is IN-Phase, and peaks at 118KHz. It still has a 4-wire
connection, and both output lines must be connected. Also, reversing the
output flips the phase, so it must still have transformer coupling.
It looks like X10 decided that in-phase is the way to go.
A side note - street prices for the old XPCP and SignaLink are similar. The
XPCP / 6299 would seem to be a better deal.
Jeff
graft...@yahoo.com
Sorry for the delay, finally got time to do a little data gathering on
this issue.
I find my measurement results a bit confusing.
In my breaker panel I have a Leviton HCA02-10E coupler/repeater. It's
wired via an existing 2-pole 30A breaker feeding a dryer, and was part
of my working configuration before this problem started.
To do some measurements, I wrote a small HomeSeer script consisting of
a loop which sends "B1" "ON", waits 3 seconds, sends "B1" "OFF", waits
another 3 seconds, then repeats.
With this script running I measured signal levels in the breaker panel
using an ESM-1 connected via alligator clip leads.
Here are my (somewhat puzzling) results. I've arbitrarily labeled the
phases "A" and "B", and expressed the observed signal strengths in
terms of number of bars lit on the ESM-1:
Condition: HCA02 breaker OFF, water heater breaker OFF
Phase A: approx 1.5 bars
Phase B: 0 bars
Condition HCA02 breaker OFF, water heater breaker ON
Phase A: approx 1.5 bars
Phase B: 0 bars
Condition HCA02 breaker ON, water heater breaker OFF
Phase A: 5 bars
Phase B: 4 bars
Condition HCA02 breaker ON, water heater breaker ON
Phase A: 5 bars
Phase B: 4 bars
Apparently the HCA02 is performing its repeater function quite well.
But what's puzzling is that with the coupler in-circuit, closing the
breaker for the water heater apparently has no visible effect on the
signal coupling as shown by the ESM-1 at the breaker panel, even
though I've repeatedly confirmed that it debilitates my control of my
front yard lighting.
Shouldn't I expect to see a big drop in Phase B signal with the water
heater circuit connected?
Thanks.
Dan Lanciani
| Sorry for the delay, finally got time to do a little data gathering on
| this issue.
|
| I find my measurement results a bit confusing.
|
| In my breaker panel I have a Leviton HCA02-10E coupler/repeater. It's
| wired via an existing 2-pole 30A breaker feeding a dryer, and was part
| of my working configuration before this problem started.
|
| To do some measurements, I wrote a small HomeSeer script consisting of
| a loop which sends "B1" "ON", waits 3 seconds, sends "B1" "OFF", waits
| another 3 seconds, then repeats.
|
| With this script running I measured signal levels in the breaker panel
| using an ESM-1 connected via alligator clip leads.
Where did you connect the clips in the panel?
| Here are my (somewhat puzzling) results. I've arbitrarily labeled the
| phases "A" and "B", and expressed the observed signal strengths in
| terms of number of bars lit on the ESM-1:
|
| Condition: HCA02 breaker OFF, water heater breaker OFF
| Phase A: approx 1.5 bars
| Phase B: 0 bars
|
| Condition HCA02 breaker OFF, water heater breaker ON
| Phase A: approx 1.5 bars
| Phase B: 0 bars
|
| Condition HCA02 breaker ON, water heater breaker OFF
| Phase A: 5 bars
| Phase B: 4 bars
|
| Condition HCA02 breaker ON, water heater breaker ON
| Phase A: 5 bars
| Phase B: 4 bars
|
| Apparently the HCA02 is performing its repeater function quite well.
| But what's puzzling is that with the coupler in-circuit, closing the
| breaker for the water heater apparently has no visible effect on the
| signal coupling as shown by the ESM-1 at the breaker panel, even
| though I've repeatedly confirmed that it debilitates my control of my
| front yard lighting.
|
| Shouldn't I expect to see a big drop in Phase B signal with the water
| heater circuit connected?
Are you sure that one or both elements in the water heater come(s) on when
you enable its breaker? Alternately, do you know that the yard lighting
control is debilitated even when no elements are on? Or maybe simplest of
all: were you checking that the yard lighting control came and went as you
closed and opened the breaker during your above tests?
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Jeff Volp
news:1177470203.3...@n35g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
What about the thermostat? Unless the heater element switches on, turning
on the circuit breaker would have little or no effect.
Jeff
Dave Houston
>Apparently the HCA02 is performing its repeater function quite well.
>But what's puzzling is that with the coupler in-circuit, closing the
>breaker for the water heater apparently has no visible effect on the
>signal coupling as shown by the ESM-1 at the breaker panel, even
>though I've repeatedly confirmed that it debilitates my control of my
>front yard lighting.
>
>Shouldn't I expect to see a big drop in Phase B signal with the water
>heater circuit connected?
What does the "X-10 Good" LED on the ESM1 do when the HCA02 and water heater
are active?
Also, as Jeff notes, for the tests you need to make sure the water heater
element is actively conducting (i.e. heating the water) by cranking the
thermostat up.
graft...@yahoo.com
OK, this is weird - I replied to this thread last night, but I don't
see my reply in this thread today.
So I'll try again:
I have an active coupler (Leviton HCA02) connected to a 2-pole breaker
supplying a clothes dryer. I wrote a short HomeSeer looping script to
repeatedly send X-10 control signals while I measured the signals with
my ESM-1.
Here are my results:
Coupler breaker OFF, Water heater breaker OFF:
Phase A: 1.5 bars on the ESM-1
Phase B: 0 bars on the ESM-1
Coupler breaker OFF, Water heater breaker ON:
Phase A: 1.5 bars on the ESM-1
Phase B: 0 bars on the ESM-1
Coupler breaker ON, Water heater breaker OFF:
Phase A: 5 bars on the ESM-1
Phase B: 4 bars on the ESM-1
Coupler breaker ON, Water heater breaker ON:
Phase A: 5 bars on the ESM-1
Phase B: 4 bars on the ESM-1
I can see the HCA02 is doing its job, repeating the Phase A: signal
and coupling it to Phase B.
But what puzzles me is that, in terms of signal strength displayed on
the ESM-1, there's no difference when the water heater breaker is open
vs. closed, in spite of the fact that closing that breaker definitely
causes loss of control of some of my X-10 devices (particularly, my
front yard lighting.)
graft...@yahoo.com
Ooops, one other thing I meant to add: all the measurements I made
were performed simply by switching the new water heater's circuit
breaker on and off. In particular, I made no effort to determine
whether or not the water heater was active, i.e. one or both of
heating elements were energized and heating water.
Robert Green
<stuff snipped>
> But what puzzles me is that, in terms of signal strength displayed on
> the ESM-1, there's no difference when the water heater breaker is open
> vs. closed, in spite of the fact that closing that breaker definitely
> causes loss of control of some of my X-10 devices (particularly, my
> front yard lighting.)
I might have missed it, but where did you meter from? I'd rerun the tests
with the ESM1 located where the problems occur so that you can see what
effect the above combinations have at the devices giving you trouble.
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
>Ooops, one other thing I meant to add: all the measurements I made
>were performed simply by switching the new water heater's circuit
>breaker on and off. In particular, I made no effort to determine
>whether or not the water heater was active, i.e. one or both of
>heating elements were energized and heating water.
As Jeff and I suggested earlier you need to make sure the water heater is
active when you conduct the test. Current has to be flowing through the
heating element(s).
graft...@yahoo.com
> <grafton...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hi, and thanks for your reply.
I used alligator-clip-leads to connect the ESM1 meter to the phase/
neutral buses in my main panel.
My front yard lights are controlled by a WS467 wall switch. Were you
suggesting connecting the ESM1 at the site of the wall switch?
graft...@yahoo.com
> In article <1177470203.376066.127...@n35g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, grafton...@yahoo.com writes:
>
> | Sorry for the delay, finally got time to do a little data gathering on
> | this issue.
> |
> | I find my measurement results a bit confusing.
> |
> | In my breaker panel I have a Leviton HCA02-10E coupler/repeater. It's
> | wired via an existing 2-pole 30A breaker feeding a dryer, and was part
> | of my working configuration before this problem started.
> |
> | To do some measurements, I wrote a small HomeSeer script consisting of
> | a loop which sends "B1" "ON", waits 3 seconds, sends "B1" "OFF", waits
> | another 3 seconds, then repeats.
> |
> | With this script running I measured signal levels in the breaker panel
> | using an ESM-1 connected via alligator clip leads.
>
> Where did you connect the clips in the panel?
I connected one lead to the neutral bus bar, then alternated the other
lead between the phase buses (the metal tabs that the breakers stake
onto.)
Actually, I'm more sure that the elements *aren't* on for all these
tests. I'll need to figure out a reasonable way to confirm this,
though (I don't have a clamp-on ammeter.)
All of the phenomena/tests I've described have occurred during times
of no water usage. I realize this doesn't absolutely guarantee that
one of the heater's elements is not in-circuit during the test, but it
makes it much more unlikely. As I said I'll try to confirm this.
I'm not familiar with water heater circuitry - are they as simply as
an SPST switch controlled by a heat sensor? I'm wondering if they
typically include some sort of spark-suppression RC stuff to preserve
the thermostat contacts...perhaps that's doing something weird to the
X-10 signals.
Thanks for the continued suggestions...
graft...@yahoo.com
> <grafton...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
I'm fairly certain that the element(s) are not in-circuit when I close
the breaker and lose control of the lights. I know that sounds
crazy. I'm going to try to confirm this somehow.
I'm considering trying your X-10 signal booster at this point. But
I'd sure like to find out what is really going on.
Appreciate your suggestions, thanks.
graft...@yahoo.com
Drat, I didn't think to check the status of that light. I'll do that
next.
Not sure why I would need to ensure the water heater element(s) are
active. This failure condition started occurring immediately after we
installed the new water heater, and has consistently happened with the
breaker on, while the X-10 operation has consistently gone back to
normal with the breaker off. I've tested it many evenings, and, as
unbelievable as it sounds, I'm pretty confident that the water heater
was not active during those times.
As I stated in other replies, though, I'll try to confirm this
somehow.
Thank you for your help.
Dave Houston
>On Apr 25, 1:01 am, "Jeff Volp" <JeffV...@msn.com> wrote:
>> What about the thermostat? Unless the heater element switches on, turning
>> on the circuit breaker would have little or no effect.
>>
>I'm fairly certain that the element(s) are not in-circuit when I close
>the breaker and lose control of the lights. I know that sounds
>crazy. I'm going to try to confirm this somehow.
>
>I'm considering trying your X-10 signal booster at this point. But
>I'd sure like to find out what is really going on.
>
>Appreciate your suggestions, thanks.
If X-10 is affected only when the elements are active, it suggests the
out-of-phase feed condition described by Phil Kingery and suspected (I
think) by Jeff, Dan and myself.
If X-10 is affected whenever the breaker is on regardless of the state of
the elements, it suggests something unusual in the water heater control unit
or in the manner in which it's wired.
I would want to understand it before trying Jeff's device.
Dan Lanciani
| On Apr 25, 12:56 am, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
| > In article <1177470203.376066.127...@n35g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, grafton...@yahoo.com writes:
| >
| > | Sorry for the delay, finally got time to do a little data gathering on
| > | this issue.
| > |
| > | I find my measurement results a bit confusing.
| > |
| > | In my breaker panel I have a Leviton HCA02-10E coupler/repeater. It's
| > | wired via an existing 2-pole 30A breaker feeding a dryer, and was part
| > | of my working configuration before this problem started.
| > |
| > | To do some measurements, I wrote a small HomeSeer script consisting of
| > | a loop which sends "B1" "ON", waits 3 seconds, sends "B1" "OFF", waits
| > | another 3 seconds, then repeats.
| > |
| > | With this script running I measured signal levels in the breaker panel
| > | using an ESM-1 connected via alligator clip leads.
| >
| > Where did you connect the clips in the panel?
|
| I connected one lead to the neutral bus bar, then alternated the other
| lead between the phase buses (the metal tabs that the breakers stake
| onto.)
You might want to try hooking on to the "output" of the breaker feeding
the yard light circuit.
Turn the thermostat way down?
| All of the phenomena/tests I've described have occurred during times
| of no water usage. I realize this doesn't absolutely guarantee that
| one of the heater's elements is not in-circuit during the test, but it
| makes it much more unlikely. As I said I'll try to confirm this.
As long as you are sure that both the measurements and the debilitation
happen under the same circumstances it should be fine.
| I'm not familiar with water heater circuitry - are they as simply as
| an SPST switch controlled by a heat sensor?
I think you will find two DPST switches (one for each element) plus an
additional high-limit cutout feeding both of them.
| I'm wondering if they
| typically include some sort of spark-suppression RC stuff to preserve
| the thermostat contacts...perhaps that's doing something weird to the
| X-10 signals.
It's certainly possible. Whatever the exact mechanism I'm interested in
this type of effect where one circuit causes impairment of another without
having any observable effect at the repeater. We shouldn't ignore the
possibility of a noise source (rather than attenuation). What type of
X10 modules are controlling the yard lights?
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Robert Green
news:1177610519.8...@c18g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
Do you know if there are any outlets on that run? I would try to get the
meter as close to the actual problem load (as opposed to the problem source)
as possible. My guess is that somehow, the water heater wiring is shunting
the X-10 signal to ground somewhere. It sounds like whenever that circuit
is active, whether drawing large amounts of power or not, it reliably
"steps" on your porch light signal.
What brand/model of water heater is this? Maybe the documentation can shed
some light on what's happening.
--
Bobby G.
Dan Lanciani
| My front yard lights are controlled by a WS467 wall switch.
When its operation is impaired, have you confirmed that you can neither
turn it off nor turn it on remotely?
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Mr. Land
> In article <1177610519.821852.327...@c18g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, grafton...@yahoo.com writes:
>
> | My front yard lights are controlled by a WS467 wall switch.
>
> When its operation is impaired, have you confirmed that you can neither
> turn it off nor turn it on remotely?
>
> Dan Lanciani
> ddl@danlan.*com
I turned the light on manually using the pushbutton on the WS467. I
then could not turn it off via an X-10 command. Next I turned the
light off manually. Similarly, I then could not turn it on via X-10.
Mr. Land
It's a GE 50 gallon, sold at Home Depot.
I like your idea - connecting the ESM1 at the WS467 - that's my next
step.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Land
Borrowed a clamp-around ammeter, observed readings when water heater
active, and not, then confirmed inactive and repeated my earlier tests
with identical results.
Also, a previous question I'd left unanswered: the ESM1's green X-10
LED is lighting up on the signals.
I have a theoretical question for those of you with a lot of PLC
experience: if I plug in some device known to eat X-10 signals, would
I expect to see the same drop in signal level at all of the outlets on
that phase?
Thanks.
Dave Houston
>I have a theoretical question for those of you with a lot of PLC
>experience: if I plug in some device known to eat X-10 signals, would
>I expect to see the same drop in signal level at all of the outlets on
>that phase?
No. Signal sinks tend to be somewhat localized with outlets nearby or
downstream most affected.
Robert Green
<stuff snipped>
> > > My front yard lights are controlled by a WS467 wall switch. Were you
> > > suggesting connecting the ESM1 at the site of the wall switch?
> >
> > Do you know if there are any outlets on that run? I would try to get
the
> > meter as close to the actual problem load (as opposed to the problem
source)
> > as possible. My guess is that somehow, the water heater wiring is
shunting
> > the X-10 signal to ground somewhere. It sounds like whenever that
circuit
> > is active, whether drawing large amounts of power or not, it reliably
> > "steps" on your porch light signal.
> >
> > What brand/model of water heater is this? Maybe the documentation can
shed
> > some light on what's happening.
> >
> > --
> > Bobby G.
>
> It's a GE 50 gallon, sold at Home Depot.
>
> I like your idea - connecting the ESM1 at the WS467 - that's my next
> step.
It's a little late in the game to ask this, but what sort of bulb is in your
porchlight? Incandescent? Compact fluorescent?
I recall your saying that the only connections from the water heater to the
circuit panel are both "hot" and no neutral. Is there any other connection
to the panel from the water heater? Some of the electric water heaters I've
seen connect the heating elements to high amperage and high voltage
(200+VAC) breakers and the control circuitry to a lower voltage, lower
amperage breaker. I assume there's a ground connection to the water heater,
too. Is it in good shape?
From what I've read, you've confirmed that when you switch the water heater
breaker(breakers?) OFF, you can remotely control the porchlight, but when
it's ON, you can't. While this looks like a signed and sealed indictment
against the water heater, it may just be that your light switch was at the
marginal end of the performance spectrum and thus nearly ANY change in the
wiring near that circuit is enough to bleed off what little signal was
getting to the porch light switch. That's why I am so interested in the
signal level right at the light switch, particularly the numbers you get
when the heater breakers are off, versus on.
--
Bobby G.
Dan Lanciani
Jeff has suggested that signal sinks can reduce the signal as seen at
the panel/repeater (either by taxing the repeater's power supply or by
causing a drop across its output coupling network). I've never seen this
happen in practice, but it could provide a mechanism for non-local effects.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Jeff Volp
news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
>
> the panel/repeater (either by taxing the repeater's power supply or by
> causing a drop across its output coupling network). I've never seen this
> happen in practice, but it could provide a mechanism for non-local
> effects.
XTB-II output with no load is over 40Vpp. The measurements I made here last
year with the XTB-II connected to the main distribution panel were 25Vpp on
one bus and 30Vpp on the other bus. Since the driver is common, that has to
be drop in the coupling networks. One leg must have somewhat lower
impedance than the other at 120KHz. The leg that read the lowest was our
non-X10 phase with the "unfriendly" loads.
In a recent test, I measured the XTB-II driving 30Vpp into a 5 ohm resistive
load. Increasing the load pulls down the 6W unregulated supply. Obviously,
more power is delivered as the load impedance decreases. But the lower
power supply also decreases the Vpp delivered to the coupling networks.
Jeff
Mr. Land
wrote:
> "Mr. Land" <grafton...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
All of our front lights are garden-variety outdoor house lamps (metal
frames with various glass panel arrangements, with arrays of 2 or 3
40W "teardrop" shaped incandescent lamps). We have one pair with each
mounted on either side of our front door, one pair with each on either
side of our garage doors, and a single pole lamp at the end of our
driveway near the street. Each pair is controlled by a single WS467,
as is the pole lamp. Currently, these are set to X-10 C4, C5 and C6
addresses, although I've tried others out of curiosity and that hasn't
helped. They all behave identically: they either all work, or none of
them work.
The wire to the water heater is 10/2 WG, so there are the two "hot"
wires and a ground - no neutral wire. Yes, the ground connection to
the water heater is sound. There are no lower-voltage feeds, control
or otherwise, to the heater.
Here's more troubleshooting info:
Through trial and error I identified the breaker which feeds the
lights in question. I re-ran my looping test script and used the ESM1
to measure the signal at the screw connection to that breaker. I saw
a the 5-bar signal level there, along with the green X-10 light on the
ESM1. Next I removed one of the troublesome WS467's (the pole lamp)
from the wall near the front door. I disconnected it and tested from
ground to each wire there at the box - on the line side wire I saw the
same "healthy" 5 bar signal level there. Really confused at this
point, I rewired the WS467 into the circuit, and tested again - I
still saw the 5 bar signal level! Yet the WS467 does not respond to
it.
Could this be some sort of minor garbling and/or ringing that the ESM1
can handle well enough to show a green X-10 indicator, yet be enough
to foul up the WS467's? Could two phase wires in the 70-odd feet of
10/2 feeding the heater be causing some sort of weird ringing?
I'm running out of ideas, thanks to you all for continuing to try to
assist.
Mr. Land
Huh. That's interesting. Obviously I'm no expert, but I would think
that the (resistance/impedance) from outlet to outlet would be very
low, so that anything sinking X-10 (or 110V, 60Hz for that matter)
would be experienced at all the outlets on that circuit.
I'm not arguing, just a bit surprised.
Thank you.
Dan Lanciani
| Through trial and error I identified the breaker which feeds the
| lights in question. I re-ran my looping test script and used the ESM1
| to measure the signal at the screw connection to that breaker. I saw
| a the 5-bar signal level there, along with the green X-10 light on the
| ESM1. Next I removed one of the troublesome WS467's (the pole lamp)
| from the wall near the front door. I disconnected it and tested from
| ground to each wire there at the box - on the line side wire I saw the
| same "healthy" 5 bar signal level there. Really confused at this
| point, I rewired the WS467 into the circuit, and tested again - I
| still saw the 5 bar signal level! Yet the WS467 does not respond to
| it.
Sounds more and more like a noise problem. Perhaps it's time to
look at the control circuit for the water heater. It might have
some "helpful" electronics...
| Could this be some sort of minor garbling and/or ringing that the ESM1
| can handle well enough to show a green X-10 indicator, yet be enough
| to foul up the WS467's? Could two phase wires in the 70-odd feet of
| 10/2 feeding the heater be causing some sort of weird ringing?
The WS467 has a very sensitive receiver and you can get some surprisingly
complicated transmission line effects in the wiring network, but I'd keep
looking for simpler explanations for a while. I know from personal
experience that the ESM1 will not show noise that can incapacitate a WS467.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Robert Green
<stuff snipped>
> All of our front lights are garden-variety outdoor house lamps (metal
This really is a fascinating problem. I never expected that you'd get 5
bars at the light switch. I'm thinking that for whatever reason, the signal
reaching the wall switches is corrupted and that the earlier threads
regarding interaction between the two phases was correct. If you live
near Wash DC, I'd be happy to bring my Monterey analyzer over to see exactly
what's coming out of the wiring at the switch. This is one of the few
instances where an analyzer really trumps an LED bargraph meter since it
allows for analysis of the actual bits on the powerline as well as the noise
level in two different parts of the power phase. My suspicion is that you'd
see the same sort of readout you see when there are collisions on the line
from multiple transmitters.
From what you've told me, you have the Leviton repeater piggy-backed onto
existing breakers. My recollection of the instruction manual (I own one,
but long ago put it in the "for Ebay" bin) is that they want you to use
dedicated breakers. It may only be a code issue, but it could also be a way
to decrease load interactions with the unit. I only mention it because we
are running out of ideas and it's one more thing to try.
The lack of low voltage feeds to the water heater suggests to me that
there's a switching power supply capable of running from 240 volts inside
the unit. They are a known plague to X-10 and could be the source of the
noise that Dan has suggested might be the problem. If so, it might be
possible to filter only the control circuitry inside the unit, but it
wouldn't be a very clean fix and it would probably be impossible to get it
inspected with such a jury rigging.
From what I've seen of electric heaters, they can have low water sensors,
overheat sensors and other control circuitry. If they are generating noise,
and the HCA-10E is amplifying it, that could easily be the source of your
problem. Short of a Monterey or an oscilloscope, I can't think of any good
ways to test that hypothesis for sure. What I would expect, if that were
the case, is that you'd see bars at the switch all the time, whether your
script was running or not.
Dan points out that might not be the case as he's seen wall switches suffer
from interference that did not register on the ESM1 so without a scope or
analyzer, it's very hard to say for sure. With that strong a signal, I now
feel it's some bizarre phase effect of the repeater, and not the low signal
that I originally thought.
My advice at the point would be to try one of Jeff Volp's XTB II's and yank
the Leviton. When I had trouble with mine their tech support rather rudely
said "We only guarantee it to work with other Decora Home Control devices -
not X-10 manufactured equipment" to which I replied "Thank you. I'll be
sure NEVER to buy another piece of Leviton equipment!" And I haven't. Both
the repeater and the Decora all housecode transmitter are in the same Ebay
"to be sold" box. Since then I have purchased a number of the XTB I's and
have been deliriously happy with them. I may even eventually buy the XTB II
as well.
I would report this problem to GE, BTW, just to see what they say. X-10 and
Home Depot are both popular enough that it's likely others have hit this
same wall. If you pull the model number off the unit's ID plate, I'll even
send them a note, saying "I was about to buy this GE water heater when I
read
about all the troubles this poor guy was having." I've found "about to buy"
gets much more attention than "I bought."
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
I agree that it's likely noise. The ESM1 also doesn't do anything
sophisticated for the "X10 Good" indicator. Paul Beam, who designed it, told
me he just looked to see if there were the expected number of 1 and 0 bits
following 1110. I'm not sure whether it even rejects sequences like 1100 but
did not ask that specifically.
The gain bandwidth product of the opamp used in the ESM1 is not very high
which limits its response to higher frequencies.
I tried, unsuccessfully, to find specs on newer GE water heaters. If there
are any electronics, the lack of a neutral suggests that they use a switch
mode power supply connected phase-to-phase.
Jeff Volp
Electrical power distribution does provide low impedance for 60Hz. However,
up at 120KHz things are a bit different. Wire inductance and distributed
capacitance comes into play. There is normally a steady decrease in signal
strength as the distance from the breaker panel increases. Any "signal
sucker" will ramp the signal down more quickly on its circuit, and all
receptacles past that device will have a correspondingly lower signal level.
In addition to the steady decrease in signal strength as it moves away from
the panel, there can also be nodes and peaks if inductance and capacitance
just happen to hit a resonant point. I believe that causes the "black
holes" that appear at certain locations.
Jeff
Dan Lanciani
| This really is a fascinating problem. I never expected that you'd get 5
| bars at the light switch. I'm thinking that for whatever reason, the signal
| reaching the wall switches is corrupted and that the earlier threads
| regarding interaction between the two phases was correct.
The problems with this are that (1) such interaction should cause simple
cancellation rather than corruption per se (unless the repeater is doing
something really strange like sending out of sync--that particular repeater
is known to be a bit odd) and (2) with the elements off there would have
to be a big capacitor leg-to-leg or such and I can't see why that would
be the case. The original poster is welcome to try my spare/repaired
CR230 if he wants to rule out repeater oddness.
| The lack of low voltage feeds to the water heater suggests to me that
| there's a switching power supply capable of running from 240 volts inside
| the unit.
Traditionally 240V appliances use a 240V transformer for the control
supply (which is usually 24VAC), but then again traditionally water
heaters don't have low voltage control circuitry at all. At this
point popping the cover of the heater seems in order.
| They are a known plague to X-10 and could be the source of the
| noise that Dan has suggested might be the problem. If so, it might be
| possible to filter only the control circuitry inside the unit, but it
| wouldn't be a very clean fix and it would probably be impossible to get it
| inspected with such a jury rigging.
I don't know; I was thinking that that would indeed be the clean fix.
HVAC folks are always doing quasi-custom hacks to installed equipment
(some not too neatly) so maybe it isn't a big deal.
| Dan points out that might not be the case as he's seen wall switches suffer
| from interference that did not register on the ESM1 so without a scope or
| analyzer, it's very hard to say for sure.
And in fact it was pretty hard to see even on a scope. Those switches
seem to be among the most sensitive X10 receivers. Given the strong
signal at the switch it might be worth testing the noise theory by
connecting a 0.1uF capacitor across one of the switches. If that makes
the problem go away it is likely noise, but you can't really leave the
capacitor there. :) (You can desensitize the switch as I've described
elsewhere, but that's a last resort.)
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
lnh
ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
> In article <E9ydnWRPweMgFqnb...@rcn.net>,
> ROBERT_G...@YAH00.COM (Robert Green) writes:
>
>
> | Dan points out that might not be the case as he's seen wall switches suffer
> | from interference that did not register on the ESM1 so without a scope or
> | analyzer, it's very hard to say for sure.
>
> And in fact it was pretty hard to see even on a scope. Those switches
> seem to be among the most sensitive X10 receivers.
So what is the best way to see the noise on a scope?
Hook the scope to an X10 bridge to filter the 60Hz and make the X10
signal and noise easier to see?
It would be hard to see the noise riding on a 120V signal without
blowing out the input on the scope.
Dave Houston
>> And in fact it was pretty hard to see even on a scope. Those switches
>> seem to be among the most sensitive X10 receivers.
>
>So what is the best way to see the noise on a scope?
>
>Hook the scope to an X10 bridge to filter the 60Hz and make the X10
>signal and noise easier to see?
>
>It would be hard to see the noise riding on a 120V signal without
>blowing out the input on the scope.
It depends on the noise. X-10 bridges and ACT's ScopeTest2 are also tuned
circuits that may filter out the noise.
One other option is just an RC circuit like the one in Appendix C of
Microchip's appnote AN236 but even with that I could never see what my old
NEC monitor vwas putting out that gave Smarthome (but not X-10 made) modules
a fit.
Dan Lanciani
| In article <133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM>,
| ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
|
| > In article <E9ydnWRPweMgFqnb...@rcn.net>,
| > ROBERT_G...@YAH00.COM (Robert Green) writes:
| >
| >
| > | Dan points out that might not be the case as he's seen wall switches suffer
| > | from interference that did not register on the ESM1 so without a scope or
| > | analyzer, it's very hard to say for sure.
| >
|
| > And in fact it was pretty hard to see even on a scope. Those switches
| > seem to be among the most sensitive X10 receivers.
|
| So what is the best way to see the noise on a scope?
|
| Hook the scope to an X10 bridge to filter the 60Hz and make the X10
| signal and noise easier to see?
You could do that, but if the bridge (coupler) is too good (too selective)
you might not see the noise. You could also use a commercial product, e.g.,
ACT's Scope-Test[2]. I use a series 0.1uF capacitor and 0.25A fuse to hot
with a 100 ohm resistor across the scope's input. I believe this is mostly
similar to some of the commercial products; the fuse gives me a little extra
feeling of safety...
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Mr. Land
> bars at the light switch. I'm thinking that for whatever reason, the signal
> reaching the wall switches is corrupted and that the earlier threads
> regarding interaction between the two phases was correct. If you live
> near Wash DC, I'd be happy to bring my Monterey analyzer over to see exactly
> what's coming out of the wiring at the switch. This is one of the few
> instances where an analyzer really trumps an LED bargraph meter since it
> allows for analysis of the actual bits on the powerline as well as the noise
> level in two different parts of the power phase. My suspicion is that you'd
> see the same sort of readout you see when there are collisions on the line
> from multiple transmitters.
>
A most generous offer, thank you very much! Unfortunately, I'm pretty
far from DC, but I appreciate it. I actually have a pretty old dual-
channel scope and an ACT Scope-Test rig I could try to use, but I'm
not sure what I'd be looking for. I got the Scope Test because I
already had the 'scope, but I've never used it - I could probably be
staring right into a garbled X-10 waveform and not know it.
> From what you've told me, you have the Leviton repeater piggy-backed onto
> existing breakers. My recollection of the instruction manual (I own one,
> but long ago put it in the "for Ebay" bin) is that they want you to use
> dedicated breakers. It may only be a code issue, but it could also be a way
> to decrease load interactions with the unit. I only mention it because we
> are running out of ideas and it's one more thing to try.
>
During some of my testing I did disconnect the Leviton unit in the
panel, then later reconnected it directly to the panel bus stakes,
albeit using alligator clip leads.
> The lack of low voltage feeds to the water heater suggests to me that
> there's a switching power supply capable of running from 240 volts inside
> the unit. They are a known plague to X-10 and could be the source of the
> noise that Dan has suggested might be the problem. If so, it might be
> possible to filter only the control circuitry inside the unit, but it
> wouldn't be a very clean fix and it would probably be impossible to get it
> inspected with such a jury rigging.
I'm a little surprised by the suggestion that a water heater would
have a switching power supply in it. I suppose it's possible -
although it's not immediately obvious to me why you'd need one. At
any rate, I went to GE's site and downloaded their "Use and Care
Manual", which includes a wiring diagram. It appears to be a simple
arrangement of thermostatic and limit switches.
>
> From what I've seen of electric heaters, they can have low water sensors,
> overheat sensors and other control circuitry. If they are generating noise,
> and the HCA-10E is amplifying it, that could easily be the source of your
> problem. Short of a Monterey or an oscilloscope, I can't think of any good
> ways to test that hypothesis for sure. What I would expect, if that were
> the case, is that you'd see bars at the switch all the time, whether your
> script was running or not.
Perhaps the noise is there, but the Leviton doesn't see it/care about
it, but once an X-10 signal appears, the Leviton comes alive, does its
repeating/coupling function, and the heater noise piggybacks? I'm
reaching here, I know.
>
> Dan points out that might not be the case as he's seen wall switches suffer
> from interference that did not register on the ESM1 so without a scope or
> analyzer, it's very hard to say for sure. With that strong a signal, I now
> feel it's some bizarre phase effect of the repeater, and not the low signal
> that I originally thought.
>
I also found an ACT CR-234 in my X-10 "extra parts" bin - I may try
that, too, in place of the Leviton.
> My advice at the point would be to try one of Jeff Volp's XTB II's and yank
> the Leviton. When I had trouble with mine their tech support rather rudely
> said "We only guarantee it to work with other Decora Home Control devices -
> not X-10 manufactured equipment" to which I replied "Thank you. I'll be
> sure NEVER to buy another piece of Leviton equipment!" And I haven't. Both
> the repeater and the Decora all housecode transmitter are in the same Ebay
> "to be sold" box. Since then I have purchased a number of the XTB I's and
> have been deliriously happy with them. I may even eventually buy the XTB II
> as well.
Thanks for that suggestion.
>
> I would report this problem to GE, BTW, just to see what they say. X-10 and
> Home Depot are both popular enough that it's likely others have hit this
> same wall. If you pull the model number off the unit's ID plate, I'll even
> send them a note, saying "I was about to buy this GE water heater when I
> read
> about all the troubles this poor guy was having." I've found "about to buy"
> gets much more attention than "I bought."
>
It'd be interesting to see if they respond - the model is SE50M12AAH.
> --
> Bobby G.
Thanks again!
Robert Green
news:133...@news1.IPSWITCHS.CMM...
ROBERT_G...@YAH00.COM (Robert Green) writes:
>
> | This really is a fascinating problem. I never expected that you'd get 5
> | bars at the light switch. I'm thinking that for whatever reason, the
signal
> | reaching the wall switches is corrupted and that the earlier threads
> | regarding interaction between the two phases was correct.
>
> The problems with this are that (1) such interaction should cause simple
> cancellation rather than corruption per se (unless the repeater is doing
> something really strange like sending out of sync--that particular
repeater
> is known to be a bit odd) and (2) with the elements off there would have
> to be a big capacitor leg-to-leg or such and I can't see why that would
> be the case. The original poster is welcome to try my spare/repaired
> CR230 if he wants to rule out repeater oddness.
I didn't intend for "interaction between the phases" to exclude any funny
business from the Leviton repeater. (-: It's still a primary culprit and
why I just ordered an XTB II from Jeff. Even though the XTBs have worked
flawlessly, I really *do* need a repeater for controllers that can't be
routed through an XTB. But I need one that works for my particular usage
pattern and equipment inventory. That wasn't the Leviton. I'm hoping it
*will* be the XTB-II.
It was a long time ago, but IIRC, the most irksome issue was the constant
locking up and resetting involved. The X-10 floodlights seemed to be the
culprit but I never ran it to ground. Each lockup caused a significant drop
in SAF for X-10, so I went the multiple transceiver route, with its many
perils but fewer trips to the circuit panel overall. That's very generous
of you to offer your spare for testing.
> | The lack of low voltage feeds to the water heater suggests to me that
> | there's a switching power supply capable of running from 240 volts
inside
> | the unit.
>
> Traditionally 240V appliances use a 240V transformer for the control
> supply (which is usually 24VAC), but then again traditionally water
> heaters don't have low voltage control circuitry at all. At this
> point popping the cover of the heater seems in order.
I suppose it would end the speculation, at least. When I was looking for GE
specific water heater schematics I did see some newer (tankless, I believe)
units that had switch mode power supplies. It's getting harder and harder
to find traditional transformer-based low voltage power supplies. The
latest batch of cameras I got had tiny 500mA 12VDC SM power supplies that
appeared to be X-10 friendly so I am going to order some more to replace the
large transformer-based 500mA I'm using now. In any event, powering a
switch mode supply from two hot legs is probably something we've not seen
much of - yet. Transformers were the industry standard. I suspect we'll be
seeing a lot more SM power supplies in strange places as the push to reduce
carbon emissions gains momentum.
> | They are a known plague to X-10 and could be the source of the
> | noise that Dan has suggested might be the problem. If so, it might be
> | possible to filter only the control circuitry inside the unit, but it
> | wouldn't be a very clean fix and it would probably be impossible to get
it
> | inspected with such a jury rigging.
>
> I don't know; I was thinking that that would indeed be the clean fix.
> HVAC folks are always doing quasi-custom hacks to installed equipment
> (some not too neatly) so maybe it isn't a big deal.
After I wrote that and sent it, I realized "impossible" was too strong a
word, even modified by "probably." The actuality is that if there's enough
room in the control hatch, no inspector would ever be likely to see it.
> | Dan points out that might not be the case as he's seen wall switches
suffer
> | from interference that did not register on the ESM1 so without a scope
or
> | analyzer, it's very hard to say for sure.
>
> And in fact it was pretty hard to see even on a scope. Those switches
> seem to be among the most sensitive X10 receivers. Given the strong
> signal at the switch it might be worth testing the noise theory by
> connecting a 0.1uF capacitor across one of the switches. If that makes
> the problem go away it is likely noise, but you can't really leave the
> capacitor there. :)
If I had spent all weekend trying to get the porchlights back on, I might be
tempted to hardwire it into a box.
> (You can desensitize the switch as I've described elsewhere, but that's a
last
> resort.)
The more I think about it, the more I think it's noise from a switch mode PS
being fed into the Leviton repeater in a way that the designers never
intended. It would be *so* nice to see what the Monterey reads at the wall
switch in noise, analysis and signal dissect modes. Signal dissect would be
able to read the voltage level of each bit and that usually tells you, at
least in collisions, which units are colliding.
At some point we should be able to learn what's inside the GE unit, either
from Mr. Land or some GE instruction manual. I might even go to Home Depot
to see for myself. Gotta take my N-vision CFL floodlight back, anyway. It
began taking longer and longer to warm up and now it never warms up
completely. Too bad. It was X-10 AND current sense friendly, too.
--
Bobby G.
Mr. Land
Dan,
What would you think about trying some sort of high pass filtering
from either leg of the 2 pole breaker feeding the heater to ground?
Thank you.
Dave Houston
>A most generous offer, thank you very much! Unfortunately, I'm pretty
>far from DC, but I appreciate it. I actually have a pretty old dual-
>channel scope and an ACT Scope-Test rig I could try to use, but I'm
>not sure what I'd be looking for. I got the Scope Test because I
>already had the 'scope, but I've never used it - I could probably be
>staring right into a garbled X-10 waveform and not know it.
Some pages on my website show X-10 signals using the Scope-Test2. While it
may, itself filter out higher frequencies, it will show the actual X-10
bits. However, it's best used with a scope that can capture and store the
signal - it's impossible to analyze things in realtime.
http://davehouston.net/noise.htm
http://davehouston.net/x10-sig.htm
I'd suggest the 0.1湩 cap and 100-ohm resistor as earlier suggested by Dan
Lanciani and myself (the Microchip appnote I cited uses this).
Robert Green
> > This really is a fascinating problem. I never expected that you'd get 5
> > bars at the light switch. I'm thinking that for whatever reason, the
signal
> > reaching the wall switches is corrupted and that the earlier threads
> > regarding interaction between the two phases was correct. If you live
> > near Wash DC, I'd be happy to bring my Monterey analyzer over to see
exactly
> > what's coming out of the wiring at the switch. This is one of the few
> > instances where an analyzer really trumps an LED bargraph meter since it
> > allows for analysis of the actual bits on the powerline as well as the
noise
> > level in two different parts of the power phase. My suspicion is that
you'd
> > see the same sort of readout you see when there are collisions on the
line
> > from multiple transmitters.
> >
>
> A most generous offer, thank you very much!
Not as generous as Dan's, by a long shot, but I've lent it out before and as
soon as I did, something went wild on me requiring an analyzer to debug.
They're just too damn expensive to warrant buying a spare, either.
> Unfortunately, I'm pretty far from DC, but I appreciate it. I actually
have a pretty
> old dual-channel scope and an ACT Scope-Test rig I could try to use, but
I'm
> not sure what I'd be looking for. I got the Scope Test because I
> already had the 'scope, but I've never used it - I could probably be
> staring right into a garbled X-10 waveform and not know it.
That's where the Monterey (at least IMHO) shines. You don't need to do
anymore than plug it in and press a mode button. It's not perfect, but it
shows a lot of information about what it "thinks" it is seeing on the
powerline and records 190 events in its memory. I would have scrapped X-10
long ago without it. There should be a serious X-10 User's group with
501(c)3 status that would loan such devices out to members who paid nominal
dues. They aren't needed often, but they are invaluable to have in
diagnosing problems like yours because they allow you to see what's
happening cycle by cycle on the powerline. I just wish they were cheaper
because if they were, I'd buy a spare I could lend out to folks like you.
> > From what you've told me, you have the Leviton repeater piggy-backed
onto
> > existing breakers. My recollection of the instruction manual (I own
one,
> > but long ago put it in the "for Ebay" bin) is that they want you to use
> > dedicated breakers. It may only be a code issue, but it could also be a
way
> > to decrease load interactions with the unit. I only mention it because
we
> > are running out of ideas and it's one more thing to try.
> >
>
> During some of my testing I did disconnect the Leviton unit in the
> panel, then later reconnected it directly to the panel bus stakes,
> albeit using alligator clip leads.
It was a reach. (-:
> > The lack of low voltage feeds to the water heater suggests to me that
> > there's a switching power supply capable of running from 240 volts
inside
> > the unit. They are a known plague to X-10 and could be the source of
the
> > noise that Dan has suggested might be the problem. If so, it might be
> > possible to filter only the control circuitry inside the unit, but it
> > wouldn't be a very clean fix and it would probably be impossible to get
it
> > inspected with such a jury rigging.
>
> I'm a little surprised by the suggestion that a water heater would
> have a switching power supply in it. I suppose it's possible -
> although it's not immediately obvious to me why you'd need one. At
> any rate, I went to GE's site and downloaded their "Use and Care
> Manual", which includes a wiring diagram. It appears to be a simple
> arrangement of thermostatic and limit switches.
I searched for water heater schematics a few days back and noticed more than
one with a power supply. I suspect the higher end and tankless models have
more sophisticated electronics that require low voltage power. It was
another reach. I remember thinking at some point that when you pull the
control hatch cover, it could easily be empty and have neither transformer
nor switch mode PS!
> > From what I've seen of electric heaters, they can have low water
sensors,
> > overheat sensors and other control circuitry. If they are generating
noise,
> > and the HCA-10E is amplifying it, that could easily be the source of
your
> > problem. Short of a Monterey or an oscilloscope, I can't think of any
good
> > ways to test that hypothesis for sure. What I would expect, if that
were
> > the case, is that you'd see bars at the switch all the time, whether
your
> > script was running or not.
>
> Perhaps the noise is there, but the Leviton doesn't see it/care about
> it, but once an X-10 signal appears, the Leviton comes alive, does its
> repeating/coupling function, and the heater noise piggybacks? I'm
> reaching here, I know.
No, that's actually very useful information and a reasonable supposition.
If the water heater were spewing noise, why wouldn't the Leviton rebroadcast
it? It wouldn't if it rejected the constant noise as noise but amplified
it, along with the legit signal, when it "wakes up" to repeat a command.
But if there's no switch power supply, where's the noise coming from? More
importantly, why doesn't seem to matter if the element is energized or not?
This is a gnarly one.
> > Dan points out that might not be the case as he's seen wall switches
suffer
> > from interference that did not register on the ESM1 so without a scope
or
> > analyzer, it's very hard to say for sure. With that strong a signal, I
now
> > feel it's some bizarre phase effect of the repeater, and not the low
signal
> > that I originally thought.
> >
>
> I also found an ACT CR-234 in my X-10 "extra parts" bin - I may try
> that, too, in place of the Leviton.
Since I own two hinky Leviton devices, I'd swap out the repeater next. A
repeater straddles both phases and probably is exposed to greater potential
trauma that normal 110VAC devices from non-optimal line conditions like
squirrels eating feeder cables <g> and other mayhem.
> > My advice at the point would be to try one of Jeff Volp's XTB II's and
yank
> > the Leviton. When I had trouble with mine their tech support rather
rudely
> > said "We only guarantee it to work with other Decora Home Control
devices -
> > not X-10 manufactured equipment" to which I replied "Thank you. I'll be
> > sure NEVER to buy another piece of Leviton equipment!" And I haven't.
Both
> > the repeater and the Decora all housecode transmitter are in the same
Ebay
> > "to be sold" box. Since then I have purchased a number of the XTB I's
and
> > have been deliriously happy with them. I may even eventually buy the
XTB II
> > as well.
>
> Thanks for that suggestion.
I think the most important distinction between the XTB-II and all other
repeaters is that it turbocharges the X-10 output right at the panel. That
has profoundly good results at the very end of the circuit branches (like
porchlight runs) where a 5-10V signal can attenuate to a few millivolts.
While that doesn't seem to be your problem here, it's been a plague for me.
Ironically, the Monterey can't read the XTB output directly because it's way
too high. However, extrapolation of the attenuation of a boosted v.
unboosted Maxicontroller showed a five fold increase in signal. Something
that read .5V at the load controller unboosted read 2.5V with an XTB.
> >
> > I would report this problem to GE, BTW, just to see what they say. X-10
and
> > Home Depot are both popular enough that it's likely others have hit this
> > same wall. If you pull the model number off the unit's ID plate, I'll
even
> > send them a note, saying "I was about to buy this GE water heater when I
> > read
> > about all the troubles this poor guy was having." I've found "about to
buy"
> > gets much more attention than "I bought."
> >
>
> It'd be interesting to see if they respond - the model is SE50M12AAH.
Thanks for the model number. I'll see what I can find out about it.
http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/images/t07/0000005/r05226v-1.p
df
One thing I noticed is that it's really a Rheem model. The diagram, indeed
shows nothing more than what you've noted although it might pay to look
further into the design of the "Type–59T Therm-o-disc Thermostats" to see if
anything weird is going on there.
I fear that we may never figure out why this happened if the ACT swap is
successful. That's unfortunately just the way it is for really knotty X-10
problems. There is also the question of why the ACT's in the spare bin to
begin with. (-: I know I've sounded mostly like a sales pitch for Monterey
Analyzers and XTB's, but they're the two parts of my X-10 system that are
the most important for reliable operation. While I'm loathe to admit it,
lest it re-ignite the X-10 flame wars, it's always *something* with X-10.
But the same is true of PC's, home theater, automobiles and complicated life
in general.
--
Bobby G.
Dan Lanciani
| Dan,
|
| What would you think about trying some sort of high pass filtering
| from either leg of the 2 pole breaker feeding the heater to ground?
You can get that in a UL-listed package as, e.g., the Leviton 6285
(though that isn't quite how they intend it to be used). I would
be inclined to try the 0.1uF capacitor across the switch first. If
it works that would be strong evidence for noise. Since you have the
scope you might want to take a look. While the scope won't decode
the X10 bits it might show you a steady noise source. Beware that
if you have the original ACT Scope-Test (as opposed to the "2" version)
it may be too selective to be useful.
Trying the CR234 might be a good idea as long as it isn't too old.
(Older ones didn't handle extended codes.)
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
lnh
Thanks. I'll give it a try.
lnh
nob...@whocares.com (Dave Houston) wrote:
> >So what is the best way to see the noise on a scope?
> >
> >Hook the scope to an X10 bridge to filter the 60Hz and make the X10
> >signal and noise easier to see?
> >
> >It would be hard to see the noise riding on a 120V signal without
> >blowing out the input on the scope.
>
> It depends on the noise. X-10 bridges and ACT's ScopeTest2 are also tuned
> circuits that may filter out the noise.
>
> One other option is just an RC circuit like the one in Appendix C of
> Microchip's appnote AN236 but even with that I could never see what my old
> NEC monitor vwas putting out that gave Smarthome (but not X-10 made) modules
> a fit.
I'll look that up. Thanks.
Dave Houston
Mr. Land
> "Mr. Land" <grafton...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >A most generous offer, thank you very much! Unfortunately, I'm pretty
> >far from DC, but I appreciate it. I actually have a pretty old dual-
> >channel scope and an ACT Scope-Test rig I could try to use, but I'm
> >not sure what I'd be looking for. I got the Scope Test because I
> >already had the 'scope, but I've never used it - I could probably be
> >staring right into a garbled X-10 waveform and not know it.
>
> Some pages on my website show X-10 signals using the Scope-Test2. While it
> may, itself filter out higher frequencies, it will show the actual X-10
> bits. However, it's best used with a scope that can capture and store the
> signal - it's impossible to analyze things in realtime.
>
> http://davehouston.net/noise.htm
> http://davehouston.net/x10-sig.htm
>
> Lanciani and myself (the Microchip appnote I cited uses this).
Thanks for these links, I'll definitely check them out.
Unfortunately, my scope is a rather old, 70's era, dual channel analog
model - no storage capabilities at all.
Mr. Land
believe that my "stable" system wasn't so stable after all; that it
was really just barely working, and the addition of the water heater
circuit was simply a straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.
I dug out an extra WS467 from my X-10 parts box. I used a small table
lamp for testing its operation, right at the panel. Using clip leads,
I wired: from ground to one prong of the lamp, from the other prong of
lamp to the black lead of the WS467, from the blue lead of the WS467
to what I will call a "test probe". I also wired the ESM1 from a
ground to the blue lead of the WS467, in an effort to "see" what it
was seeing.
I set the WS467 to the same housecode as my pole lamp, which is C4.
Then I fired up my HomeSeer script to continually send C4 ON, sleep 5
seconds, send C4 OFF, sleep 5 seconds, send C4 ON, etc.
I first connected the test probe to the load side of the breaker
feeding the lighting circuit in question. Immediately I saw new
behavior on the ESM1 display: seemingly on each command, the LED bars
indicated four (!) distinct signal amplitude peaks. That is, 5 bars
would light, then drop to 3 or 4, then back up to five, repeating for
a total of 4 peaks, then silence (which I assume is the sleep call in
the script). This happened consistently at the breaker connection. I
didn't think to measure at the time but I would say from memory that
the total duration for the 4 pulses was around 2 seconds. It really
looked like something was echoing the control signal 3 times, except
that the green X-10 indicator never came on, and the WS467 never
responded.
This breaker is installed about halfway down the height of the panel.
At the bottom of the panel, there is an unused, exposed stake tab on
that same phase. I moved my test probe to that tab. I saw the same
repeating 4-peak pulses, except now, on every 3rd pulse, the ESM1's
X-10 indicator came on. The WS467 began to intermittently respond to
the commands (some it missed, some it responded to, about 50/50). I
then flipped off the water heater's breaker. Nothing changed on the
ESM1, but the WS467 "success rate" went up: most of the time it
responded, but it still missed a command here and there.)
Unfortunately I ran out of time at this point, but the next test I
wanted to try was to leave the ESM1 connected, and switch out the
WS467, to see if its addition was causing this new, "4-peak" behavior.
I'll post my results (I feel I owe you guys at this point %^)
Thanks.
Dave Houston
>Unfortunately, my scope is a rather old, 70's era, dual channel analog
>model - no storage capabilities at all.
From your other post, it sounds like you're getting corrupted signals and
the only way to see them is with a storage scope. You can get inexpensive
USB Digital Sampling Oscilloscopes.
http://www.usb-instruments.com/
http://www.hvwtech.com/products_list.asp?CatID=122&SubCatID=123&SubSubCatID=0
http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=28014
http://www.usbwholesale.com/oscilloscope.htm
The 2nd & 3rd one are the same - HVW designed it and sold it under their own
name until Parallax bought it.
Or you can use your scope to design an RC circuit like the one in AN236
making sure the maximum amplitude is in the 1-5V range and then use a
soundcard to record it as a .WAV file which you can then view in a Wave
editor. I've shown how to do this with low voltage (5V) signals from IR or
RF receivers here...
http://davehouston.net/learn.htm
You might want to add clamping diodes on the input to the soundcard. I'd try
to generate a schematic but a power glitch this AM destroyed my router. My
drawing program is on a different machine from the only one I can connect to
the Internet so I'm limping along on sneakernet until I can find a
replacement router. (D-Link DI-707P)
Dan Lanciani
| I dug out an extra WS467 from my X-10 parts box. I used a small table
| lamp for testing its operation, right at the panel. Using clip leads,
| I wired: from ground to one prong of the lamp, from the other prong of
| lamp to the black lead of the WS467, from the blue lead of the WS467
| to what I will call a "test probe". I also wired the ESM1 from a
| ground to the blue lead of the WS467, in an effort to "see" what it
| was seeing.
|
| I set the WS467 to the same housecode as my pole lamp, which is C4.
| Then I fired up my HomeSeer script to continually send C4 ON, sleep 5
| seconds, send C4 OFF, sleep 5 seconds, send C4 ON, etc.
|
| I first connected the test probe to the load side of the breaker
| feeding the lighting circuit in question. Immediately I saw new
| behavior on the ESM1 display: seemingly on each command, the LED bars
| indicated four (!) distinct signal amplitude peaks. That is, 5 bars
| would light, then drop to 3 or 4, then back up to five, repeating for
| a total of 4 peaks, then silence (which I assume is the sleep call in
| the script).
Are you sure the sequence wasn't low then high? That would be normal
behavior with a repeater, assuming the ESM1 is registering both the
original and repeated versions. So you see C4, C4 repeated, ON, and
then ON repeated (where repeated is in addition to the second copy
from the transmitter). A Leviton test set would show only two because
it measures only the "ON" after it is selected by its (fixed) address.
| This happened consistently at the breaker connection. I
| didn't think to measure at the time but I would say from memory that
| the total duration for the 4 pulses was around 2 seconds. It really
| looked like something was echoing the control signal 3 times, except
| that the green X-10 indicator never came on, and the WS467 never
| responded.
I would try the 0.1uF capacitor across the WS467. It is possible that
you have a noise source not related to the water heater but the addition
of the heater circuit changes things enough to make it significant. Keep
in mind that the WS467 does not have any AGC so it is the absolute level
of the noise that matters (even if it is tiny compared to the good signal).
Another possible experiment would be to use a lamp or appliance module
rather than the WS467; the former are not as sensitive.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Mr. Land
Dan,
Thanks for the suggestions - all excellent. I'll do some more
testing.
If I no longer post replies you'll know I finally fried myself
sticking wires into my mains panel.
lnh
nob...@whocares.com (Dave Houston) wrote:
Off to the parts house. Thanks.
Dave Houston
>> Appendix C, FIGURE C-3 (within dashed line rectangle)...
>>
>> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00236a.pdf
>
>Off to the parts house. Thanks.
While there, grab a 25VAC wall transformer if you're interested in recording
lengthy sequences with a soundcard. It will provide isolation while getting
the line voltage down to a level that's safe for humanoids before devising a
circuit to make the 60Kz and 120kHz levels safe for the soundcard.
Alternately, you can open up your ESM1 and use it as the source for input to
a soundcard. John Galvin reverse engineered a schematic for the ESM1 shortly
after it was introduced.
http://home.pacbell.net/lgalvin/esm1.gif
This is so obvious that I should have thought of it years ago as the need
for lengthy PLC captures arises frequently. (In my defense, I usually use my
DSO 'scope.) Recording them as .WAV files allows for editing and analysis in
a Wave editor (e.g. Goldwave) with the length only limited by disk space.
Tapping into the ESM1 really simplifies things. You can get 60Hz on PIC pin
13 and the signal on PIC pin 18, it's isolated and all low voltage. If I
were ELK, I'd add a 1/8" stereo jack and a few resistors and double the
price. ;)
Robert Green
<stuff snipped>
> Alternately, you can open up your ESM1 and use it as the source for input
to
> a soundcard. John Galvin reverse engineered a schematic for the ESM1
shortly
> after it was introduced.
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/lgalvin/esm1.gif
>
> This is so obvious that I should have thought of it years ago as the need
> for lengthy PLC captures arises frequently. (In my defense, I usually use
my
> DSO 'scope.) Recording them as .WAV files allows for editing and analysis
in
> a Wave editor (e.g. Goldwave) with the length only limited by disk space.
> Tapping into the ESM1 really simplifies things. You can get 60Hz on PIC
pin
> 13 and the signal on PIC pin 18, it's isolated and all low voltage. If I
> were ELK, I'd add a 1/8" stereo jack and a few resistors and double the
> price. ;)
So what exactly would I be looking at on the screen if I opened up my ESM1
and instead of ruining it (just a comment on my soldering skills or lack
thereof), I miraculously was able to solder two wires to the right PIC pins
and to ground (I assume) and hook them up to a miniature (or is it submini?)
stereo jack. Would that output feed directly into the AUX input of a sound
card, hopefully one on a laptop?
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
>So what exactly would I be looking at on the screen if I opened up my ESM1
>and instead of ruining it (just a comment on my soldering skills or lack
>thereof), I miraculously was able to solder two wires to the right PIC pins
>and to ground (I assume) and hook them up to a miniature (or is it submini?)
>stereo jack. Would that output feed directly into the AUX input of a sound
>card, hopefully one on a laptop?
Give me a few days and I'll try to put together a web page with
"eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with the circles and arrows". I've been
really struggling lately with my spinal cord injury (I may soon need a power
chair - what did your dad's cost?) and need to repair/replace the network
switch that failed yesterday before I try to tackle this. I cannot access my
network HDD (which is where I store pics) until that's done. Tasks which
used to take an hour or two now take days or weeks.
While the details may change once I get into the nitty-gritty, I will
probably recommend just soldering a jack to the ESM1. I have some 3.5mm M/F
stereo extension cables that I got from All Electronics or one of the other
surplus dealers. I'm sure Ratshack sells something similar. I'll cut one
asunder and solder the female end to the ESM1. There's no room to mount a
bulkhead type jack internally but the lead can pass through the case and I
can then design a small adapter board with voltage dividers and/or clamping
diodes to prevent damage to the soundcard. The male end of the cable can
then connect the external adapter to the soundcard input. In this way, the
ESM1 is unaltered (except for the connector dongle) when the external
circuitry is unplugged.
You need to use "line-in" although an "aux" input is probably the same (I've
just never seen one labelled "aux".) and I would suggest, out of an
abundance of caution, that a separate sound card (PCI or USB) would be safer
than the built-in soundcard emulation of most laptops (many of which do not
have "line-in" but only "mic" which will not work for this.
Robert Green
> "Robert Green" <ROBERT_G...@YAH00.COM> wrote:
>
> >So what exactly would I be looking at on the screen if I opened up my
ESM1
> >and instead of ruining it (just a comment on my soldering skills or lack
> >thereof), I miraculously was able to solder two wires to the right PIC
pins
> >and to ground (I assume) and hook them up to a miniature (or is it
submini?)
> >stereo jack. Would that output feed directly into the AUX input of a
sound
> >card, hopefully one on a laptop?
>
> Give me a few days and I'll try to put together a web page with
> "eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with the circles and arrows". I've
been
> really struggling lately with my spinal cord injury (I may soon need a
power
> chair - what did your dad's cost?) and need to repair/replace the network
> switch that failed yesterday before I try to tackle this. I cannot access
my
> network HDD (which is where I store pics) until that's done. Tasks which
> used to take an hour or two now take days or weeks.
Take your time. We purchased a few different chairs from the "fell off a
truck" place. It took me about 4 months of looking actively because we
needed to buy within 200 miles (until we bought the electric ramp van, that
is). Street prices go from $400 up. The best deal I got was from an
ISOLDIT that curiously made me sign a receipt that says "unit moves
smoothly." It had sat in their store for a few weeks so I was really
curious, but it did move, so I thought I could use it for spare parts at
$135.
Of course, when I got home, it began to stutter badly. Fortunately, someone
had installed brand new batteries (worth the purchase price all by
themselves!) and the cause was a battery wire that wasn't screwed down
tightly using lock washers. The slightly used, heavy duty chair would have
sold for $2000+ new. Buying them new puts you in the $1600 range for the
cheapest crap Medicare will pay for and way, way up to Recarro leather seats
and full power lift and recline. Then there's the $30K I-Bit that can climb
stairs but not fit under tables!
Sadly, there are lots and lots of chairs on Ebay that have has very little
use. You can figure out why. Local pawnshops and wheelchair societies also
have used ones. Most important advice is to sit in the one you intend to
buy. We have four because three of them turned out to be very difficult for
Dad to sit in for long periods of time because of his ruptured discs. One
of my future projects is to mount a nice car seat from the junkyard to one
of the units with a bad chair.
> While the details may change once I get into the nitty-gritty, I will
> probably recommend just soldering a jack to the ESM1. I have some 3.5mm
M/F
> stereo extension cables that I got from All Electronics or one of the
other
> surplus dealers. I'm sure Ratshack sells something similar. I'll cut one
> asunder and solder the female end to the ESM1. There's no room to mount a
> bulkhead type jack internally but the lead can pass through the case and I
> can then design a small adapter board with voltage dividers and/or
clamping
> diodes to prevent damage to the soundcard. The male end of the cable can
> then connect the external adapter to the soundcard input. In this way, the
> ESM1 is unaltered (except for the connector dongle) when the external
> circuitry is unplugged.
>
> You need to use "line-in" although an "aux" input is probably the same
(I've
> just never seen one labelled "aux".) and I would suggest, out of an
> abundance of caution, that a separate sound card (PCI or USB) would be
safer
> than the built-in soundcard emulation of most laptops (many of which do
not
> have "line-in" but only "mic" which will not work for this.
Interesting - the laptop option would make it more portable and I am pretty
sure the one I have in mind has a LINE IN and if it fries I would be out the
$20 I paid for it at - you guessed it - "fell off a truck" Bay! (Don't know
why I called it AUX!)
Thanks!
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
>Interesting - the laptop option would make it more portable and I am pretty
>sure the one I have in mind has a LINE IN and if it fries I would be out the
>$20 I paid for it at - you guessed it - "fell off a truck" Bay! (Don't know
>why I called it AUX!)
I did a quickie feasibility test using my scope card and just clipping my
scope leads to R9 (Pin13) & C3 (Pin18). There's a screenshot at...
http://davehouston.net/ESM1-TEST.gif
I forgot to include the scale on the 60Hz trace. It's 1v/DIV so this pin can
probably connect directly to the soundcard. The PLC signal will need to be
attenuated - the 39K & 10K resistors I show here...
http://davehouston.net/learn.htm
should work.
I'm not an engineer so I'd appreciate any suggestions that Dan & Jeff might
have.
As luck would have it, I was able to capture some noise which I see
periodically. It shows up as 1 bar (my ESM1 is pre-ELK) but does not affect
any of my X-10 devices (although it might if I had a weaker signal).
Using this with the techniques & software I recommend in the IR/RF link
should allow you to record lengthy PLC sequences. We don't need really high
recording resolution. My scope sample rate was 20K/s and we could go even
lower with the soundcard to minimize disk space.
Sorry - I think this obsoletes Bobby's Monterey. ;)
Dave Houston
>I did a quickie feasibility test using my scope card and just clipping my
>scope leads to R9 (Pin13) & C3 (Pin18). There's a screenshot at...
>
> http://davehouston.net/ESM1-TEST.gif
If you can't get there from here, try...
Robert Green
Does that pattern read 011101?
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
>>
>> http://davehouston.net/ESM1-TEST.htm
>
>Does that pattern read 011101?
Yes, I scrolled the display to a startcode before capturing the screen.
BTW, I think the noise is from my Dell 17" CRT monitor. I'm not sure whether
it's EMI affecting the ESM1 or on the powerline but the ESM1 only shows it
when the monitor is awake a displaying something.
I wrote some software a few years ago that automatically scans a .WAV file,
cleaning up the noise, normalizing amplitudes, outputting a CCF code and
displaying the waveform in an oscilloscope like plot. That way people could
capture IR & RF codes and send me the .WAV file rather than having to send
me the hardware so that I could quickly convert them to CCF. If ever I start
feeling better I might be able to do something similar to automatically
analyze X-10 PLC codes recorded this way.
Robert Green
It's not going into the junkbin just yet unless you can shrink all of this
down to the size of a cigarette pack with a line cord. (-: But the ability
to capture raw line data to disk with just a sound card should be extremely
useful in debugging certain sets of problems, particularly something like
overnight phantoms and noise related events. Every weapon in the arsenal
helps. I'll bet it would help solve Mr. Land's problem or at least shed
serious light on it.
With the plan I had to distribute a number of wall warts around the house
feeding a rotary switch and then the ESM1, this would give a very good way
of being able to inspect the powerline at several places around the house
quite easily and in great detail AND with a recorded log. That could be a
*very* good tool for analyzing the effect of things like signal suckers on
the entire household wiring network. Before this, with no way to record or
compare the signals other than through the LED bar graph display, it wasn't
really workable. Now it is. Good work! With both the power feed and the
I/O line on sockets, I should even be able to retain its function as a
portable device.
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
>> Sorry - I think this obsoletes Bobby's Monterey. ;)
>
>It's not going into the junkbin just yet unless you can shrink all of this
>down to the size of a cigarette pack with a line cord. (-: But the ability
>to capture raw line data to disk with just a sound card should be extremely
>useful in debugging certain sets of problems, particularly something like
>overnight phantoms and noise related events. Every weapon in the arsenal
>helps. I'll bet it would help solve Mr. Land's problem or at least shed
>serious light on it.
>
>With the plan I had to distribute a number of wall warts around the house
>feeding a rotary switch and then the ESM1, this would give a very good way
>of being able to inspect the powerline at several places around the house
>quite easily and in great detail AND with a recorded log. That could be a
>*very* good tool for analyzing the effect of things like signal suckers on
>the entire household wiring network. Before this, with no way to record or
>compare the signals other than through the LED bar graph display, it wasn't
>really workable. Now it is. Good work! With both the power feed and the
>I/O line on sockets, I should even be able to retain its function as a
>portable device.
It's much smaller than a cigarette pack. It adds a 3.5mm cable coming out of
the ESM1 and there are two resistors (which will need a small vector board)
in the line between the ESM1 and soundcard.
I'll need to build one and test it to see how accurately it will record PLC
level. This is a 60Hz signal and some soundcards may not do too well with
that.
You may need a lot of free disk space to record overnight - I haven't
analyzed that yet. Nor do I know if there are limits on the size of .WAV
files that can be viewed & edited.
Robert Green
What happens if you move the ESM1 meter head near the transformer, as in
mounting both the head and a power supply inside the same box and having
just a line cord extend from the unit? One "ease of use" feature of the
Monterey that I really like is the built-in power supply. The line cord is
typically easier for me to find a ready outlet for than the whole wall wart.
I use a 6' extension cord right now, but if I am going to be modding the
ESM1, that a mod I'd consider doing at the same time because I've been
thinking of mounting the "head" on a little slotted hinge so I can angle the
readout to see without hands. It's like my doctors. "As long as we're
going in to fix your cruxus whatis, why don't we do a little debriding?" In
for a penny, I guess.
> I'll need to build one and test it to see how accurately it will record
PLC
> level. This is a 60Hz signal and some soundcards may not do too well with
> that.
No rush, but I certainly like the idea of a having a different "EKG" for
each circuit in the house.
> You may need a lot of free disk space to record overnight - I haven't
> analyzed that yet. Nor do I know if there are limits on the size of .WAV
> files that can be viewed & edited.
I may actually want to send a known reference pulse through each transformer
in round robin fashion and save the files for visual or computational
analysis. If the standard J1 ON starts to show unusual noise or a drop in
amplitude, it should be obvious in a comparison view.
What would happen if I recorded in MP3 and converted back to WAV format?
would the loss be noticeable? Disk space wouldn't be as much of an issue
that way.
--
Bobby G.
lnh
nob...@whocares.com (Dave Houston) wrote:
Interesting. I would have thought the wall wart would attenuate the high
frequencies we were looking for.
By the way, I built the scope circuit in the AppNote above. It seems to
work, although I won't be able to test it until tomorrow. I also built
in the 32KHz high pass from the AppNote to play with.
Thanks again to all.
Dave Houston
>What happens if you move the ESM1 meter head near the transformer, as in
>mounting both the head and a power supply inside the same box and having
>just a line cord extend from the unit?
>What would happen if I recorded in MP3 and converted back to WAV format?
>would the loss be noticeable? Disk space wouldn't be as much of an issue
>that way.
I tested the effects of the wall transformer on the meter extensively when
the ESM1 was introduced (and my review here savagely attacked on those very
grounds). I found no effect. My test setup usually has the wall transformer
in a powerstrip on a work bench with the meter sitting atop the transformer
and my Scope-Test2 or other filter plugged into the same powerstrip.
I have no idea how lossy MP3 might be in this case. I use Loop Recorder for
tests like these and it only records .WAV files. All I can suggest is that
you experiment.
Until I test it I don't know whether the soundcard will record the higher
frequencies that are beyond the audio range. Since we're sampling at a rate
well below the Nyquist limit, we'll see an aliased noise signal if it's not
filtered out first. My Audigy soundcard can sample at 96Kb/s (although Loop
Recorder does not go that high) but higher frequencies may be filtered
before the sample is taken. This is, after all, a $1.98 solution (1 audio
cable, 2 resistors) which, while it may not be the ultimate piece of PLC
test gear for all conditions, it should prove useful to anyone who already
has the ESM1.
Robert Green
> "Robert Green" <ROBERT_G...@YAH00.COM> wrote:
>
> >What happens if you move the ESM1 meter head near the transformer, as in
> >mounting both the head and a power supply inside the same box and having
> >just a line cord extend from the unit?
>
> >What would happen if I recorded in MP3 and converted back to WAV format?
> >would the loss be noticeable? Disk space wouldn't be as much of an issue
> >that way.
>
> I tested the effects of the wall transformer on the meter extensively when
> the ESM1 was introduced (and my review here savagely attacked on those
very
> grounds). I found no effect. My test setup usually has the wall
transformer
> in a powerstrip on a work bench with the meter sitting atop the
transformer
> and my Scope-Test2 or other filter plugged into the same powerstrip.
That's good to know. If it all works out, I will remount everything in a
different case with a single, very long line cord.
> I have no idea how lossy MP3 might be in this case. I use Loop Recorder
for
> tests like these and it only records .WAV files. All I can suggest is that
> you experiment.
>
> Until I test it I don't know whether the soundcard will record the higher
> frequencies that are beyond the audio range. Since we're sampling at a
rate
> well below the Nyquist limit, we'll see an aliased noise signal if it's
not
> filtered out first. My Audigy soundcard can sample at 96Kb/s (although
Loop
> Recorder does not go that high) but higher frequencies may be filtered
> before the sample is taken. This is, after all, a $1.98 solution (1 audio
> cable, 2 resistors) which, while it may not be the ultimate piece of PLC
> test gear for all conditions, it should prove useful to anyone who already
> has the ESM1.
I see. IIUC, the X-10 signal's frequency (120KHz?) is way outside the
normal audio range so eventual success is going to depend a lot on the
characteristics of the sound card and recording software. Are there any
electronic tricks that can bring the frequency down? Halving the playback
speed would reduce the frequency of a normal audio signal but that wouldn't
work here because the card may not be able to capture the higher frequency
to begin with. No magic frequency divider in a IC package or does that mean
lots of additional support circuitry and isolation issues?
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
>I see. IIUC, the X-10 signal's frequency (120KHz?) is way outside the
>normal audio range so eventual success is going to depend a lot on the
>characteristics of the sound card and recording software. Are there any
>electronic tricks that can bring the frequency down? Halving the playback
>speed would reduce the frequency of a normal audio signal but that wouldn't
>work here because the card may not be able to capture the higher frequency
>to begin with. No magic frequency divider in a IC package or does that mean
>lots of additional support circuitry and isolation issues?
No, no, no. Look at the oscilloscope screenshot. The ESM1 demodulates the
120kHz X10 bursts and we see a ~1mS, 5V baseband pulse on pin 18 with a
maximum frequency of 60Hz. This and the 60Hz ZC signal on pin 13 are well
within the frequency response of the soundcard. I have frequently recorded
the baseband output of RF and IR receivers and the soundcard has no problem
with the 8.8mS X-10 RF start pulse (and about the same as the 60Hz on pin
13) nor with the less than 1mS pulses used in the bitstream so we should
have no problems with ZC of the 1mS X-10 pulse. Look at the bottom picture
here...
http://davehouston.net/rf-noise.htm
Pin 18 is an ADC pin and the amplitude of the pulse in the X-10 window is
approximately proportional to the signal level on the powerline. The
soundcard will record differences in this level but we have no fixed
reference and will have to make comparisons between the recorded amplitude
and number of ESM1 bars to "calibrate" the .WAV file. And, it's possible to
edit the .WAV file to increase/decrease amplitude, filter out noise, etc. so
it really depends on the desired end result.
You might also look at...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level
bearing in mind that peak-to-peak levels are ~2.8 times the RMS levels
given.
We need to limit the amplitude at the input to the soundcard (the resistors
lower it to ~1V MAX) to avoid clipping which will remove any amplitude
information. We need to make sure that we still have some headroom when pin
18 is @ 5V.
I'm not sure why the 140kHz noise signal is showing up on my scope _OUTSIDE_
of the 1mS window but suspect the firmware sets pin 18 low to drain the
capacitor that is part of the peak detector that demodulates the 120kHz.
It's only that noise outside the 1mS window (which I'm not sure I
understand) that I'm not sure the soundcard will "hear". If it makes it past
any input filters, it will be sampled and aliased so we'll see something
similar to the oscilloscope screenshot (where the sampling rate is only
20Kb/s). I'll try to build a prototype today or tomorrow and test
everything.
IOW, the .WAV file should be a reliable way to record/analyze X-10 codes but
may not be as useful to analyze any high frequency noise that may be
present. What do you expect from adding a bit of wire and two resistors? ;)
I'm still not 100% sure where those 2V, 140kHz noise bursts are coming from
but the pre-ELK ESM1 shows 1 bar while my monitor is awake and no bars when
it goes into standby. I'm fairly certain it's on the powerline as I left the
ESM1 in the exact same location but used an extension cord to power it from
another circuit and the noise disappears even with the monitor awake. Until
proven otherwise I'll blame it on the usual suspect but I'm not ruling out a
ground-loop.
Here's a picture of the 3.5mm cable...
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/CB-333/117/6%22#39;_3.5MM_M-F_EXTENSION_CORD_.html
A few inches of the female end will hang out of the ESM1. An adapter with
the resistors will plug into it and into the line-in input. When unplugged
the ESM1 operates as it always did. (I expect it to operate just as well
when connected to a soundcard but this way plays safe.)
Dave Houston
>I see. IIUC, the X-10 signal's frequency (120KHz?) is way outside the
>normal audio range so eventual success is going to depend a lot on the
>characteristics of the sound card and recording software.
OK, I have the prototype running. It does show the 140kHz noise, even at the
lowest (8Ks/s) sampling rate although with no detail at that resolution.
Still, it's an indication that there's something on the line that needs
further investigation. I'm not sure we need the resistors so it might get
even simpler and a bit cheaper.
I've added a screenshot showing a section of the .WAV file at...
http://davehouston.net/ESM1-TEST.htm
A 10 hour .WAV file is about 2.2GB so I'm not sure it's all that useful for
overnight recording but it's also possible to design a small PIC-based
module to plug in instead of the soundcard with enough smarts to output just
the X-10 bits via RS232 so a 10 hour file becomes much smaller and much
easier to decipher. I was discussing adding RS232 output to the ESM1 with
Paul Beam (the designer) before ELK bought the rights to it. I sure wish I
had thought of this then.
Damn - that 60Hz hum (ZC squarewave) from my PC speaker is starting to annoy
me. You can also hear the X-10 bursts so this may prove to be a handy
troubleshooting tool.
I have to get my network back up before I can finish documenting things. I
have pictures of the ESM1 board with the added cable but my camera software
is on a different machine from my graphics editing software and HTML editor.
lnh
lnh <ln...@spamfree.net> wrote:
Well, it works. And works well. I found a bad battery backup and a bad
GFCI outlet. It took a lot of breaker flipping, but watching the change
in noise and signal levels was very helpful. One by one the changes made
by bringing a new circuit on line could be monitored visually. Very
helpful.
Thanks.
Dave Houston
>> >What would happen if I recorded in MP3 and converted back to WAV format?
>> >would the loss be noticeable? Disk space wouldn't be as much of an issue
>> >that way.
As I noted earlier, I don't know whether you would lose detail but it's
worth a try. The latest version of LoopRecorder defaults to .WMA which is a
compressed format. Also, you can record the signals in mono which will add
the two channels together but cut the file size in half. This gets the file
down to sizes more easily managed for overnight recording.
>I see. IIUC, the X-10 signal's frequency (120KHz?) is way outside the
>normal audio range so eventual success is going to depend a lot on the
>characteristics of the sound card and recording software. Are there any
>electronic tricks that can bring the frequency down? Halving the playback
>speed would reduce the frequency of a normal audio signal but that wouldn't
>work here because the card may not be able to capture the higher frequency
>to begin with. No magic frequency divider in a IC package or does that mean
>lots of additional support circuitry and isolation issues?
The noise that I see here turns out to be more complex than I first thought.
There is something on the powerline just before ZC (and after the third X-10
burst) plus the ESM1 is affected by EMI from my Dell CRT monitor. With the
ESM1 plugged into an extension cord that is plugged into a different outlet,
there are no bars until I move it near the monitor and then I see 1 bar. I
don't think this is having any effect on the recorded signal - all of that
noise seems to be related to the mystery 60Hz pulses.
I've added another screenshot to the web page showing the powerline through
the oscilloscope adapter described in Microchip's appnote AN236. It shows
the mystery noise as well as an X-10 signal.
I may play around with a similar circuit fed by a 12VAC wall transformer to
allow soundcard recording with no need for an ESM1. It might make a
worthwhile addition to the troubleshooting arsenal and won't have the
frequency limits of the ESM1.
Mr. Land
Just wanted to post my resolution - I was getting some very
intermittent behavior and it seemed that the addition of the water
heater and/or its wiring was the last straw. Got varying results
using different repeater/couplers I had, testing at various points
inside the main breaker panel and at various test points around the
house.
Decided to try Jeff's device - happy to report that everything seems
to be working very solidly with the addition of the XTB - I can now
illuminate the front of our house *AND* take a bath!
Thanks again for your generous help, all the best...