2 100amp panel coupler help needed
carlford
off of them. I have intermittent problems from time to time but it is
also a vacation home so I'm not there all of the time. There is a
leviton whole house blocker coupler (4851) in each of the 100 amp
panels and I have been using one leviton coupler repeater (6201) and a
capacitor in the other 100 amp panel and a capacitor in each of the sub
panels. This gives me the best performance so far but it is not
perfect. Yes I know it will never be but I'm pretty sure it can be
better. My elk meter shows at least 1/2 of the scal lit up on 80 to
85% of the house's outlets and of coure then we get very weak on
others. This place is about 4500 sq ft and 3 stories but less than 5
years old. The furtherest point from the panels is very weak which is
after the sub panel that runs off of the panel without the repeater.
Do you think somethin like an ACT CR134 would boost the signal enough
and since the 2 main panels have 4851's on them ??? I do have both
4851's off for now anbd that gets me the best signal for now. When i
put both of them on it weakens the far end to the point that i loose a
whole room totally. "Uncle Phil" has never addressed the setup with 2
100 amp panels with 2 blockers on them as of now and I have been
waitn=ing for him to do in his next (if coming) article. Again if you
have a 2 panel setup and it is working good for you maybe you can give
some pointers. Is the ACT CR134 really an amplifier or should I just
try an additional 6201 ?? Ther is one pr511 installed and under a
certain condition it can be made to ping-pong with the repeater (6201)
as my setup is now but I can live with or without the pr511 if
necessary.
Thanks in advance for any and all posts.
Carl Ford
PM accepted if requested here
Frank Olson
Are these 100 amp panels fed off of one meter?? The blocker/couplers
has to go on the first panel downstream from the meter and my X-10
design book states you should only use one. You might want to remove
one of the blockers to see if the signal strength improves. Get rid of
the capacitors. Install a surge suppressor.
Marc F Hult
<Use_the_e...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote in message
<h98nf.96119$Eq5.71028@pd7tw1no>:
What is Frank's (anonymous?) "X-10 design book" that "states you should
only use one" ?
Why should anyone take that advice instead of Phil Kingery's from Advanced
Control Technologies (ACT) who authoritatively goes into considerable detail
on why and how to deploy multiple couplers?
See http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery03.htm
http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery04.htm
http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery20.htm
Carl:
The 6201 is no longer made as best I know. Leastwise when mine failed --
taking down all x-10 in the house with it -- Leviton replaced it under
warranty with a HCA02.
My experience and that of others is that the 6201, HCA02 and ACT's can all
fail. So you can't assume that it is your topology that is wrong. Sometimes
the most efficient trouble shooting is to swap questionable devices with
"known-good" ones. This becomes expensive with couplers.
Yes, the ACT 134 is an amplifier as well as a coupler.
http://www.act-solutions.com/pdfs/PCCSpecs/cr134%20cr334_spec%20.pdf
Its specs state that it is sensitive down to 25 millivolts and that it
outputs 5v peak-to-peak at 5 ohms powerline impedance. There has been at
least one post in this newsgroup that suggests that this output is low
compared to other devices, but that was a comparison of 1) the published
spec with stated impedance with 2) the measured output but unknown power
line impedance of other devices. (This is akin to comparing the output of
two power amplifiers, one with stated impedance, one unstated -- we all know
how misleading that can be.)
.. Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
carlford
Marc, the 6201 I have is working. I have tried it with and without it
and there IS a big difference:however, I guess my big question is
whether or not a "real" amplified signal would help on the furtherest
ends. The two whole house blockers that are now turned off and are
installed in each 100 amp panel might also cause a problem if i move to
2 repeaters ??? There are lots of 6201's still available too. Do you
know if the 10E model of the leviton coupler really amplifies ??
Thanks to you both for your replies
Carl Ford
Dave Houston
have two whole house blocking couplers. They are intended to block X-10 from
entering or leaving so, when on, they would tend to attenuate X-10 signals
from one panel from reaching the other panel. I think you need a single 4851
upstream of the Y.
Then you _may_ need a coupler repeater in each main panel but I think the
first step is to eliminate one 4851 and then re-evaluate things.
You say you get strong signals with an ESM1 in most locations. The weak
locations may or may not be related to poor coupling. You may have devices
that are attenuating the signals there. While the larger a house, the harder
it is to get good signal everywhere this is not directly related to the
longer wiring runs. Studies have shown there's minimal attenuation that can
be attributed to the length of the wire run but there is a correlation
between the number of J-box terminations and attenuation due to the
increased inductance of those terminations.
The HCA02-10E is a coupler/repeater (the repeated signal is 5Vpp) but it has
been problematic in _some_ installations, especially when a PR511 is also in
the system.
carlford
years. The original electrician had thought in the beginning that
since the Y from the meter to the 2 100 amp panels that both would need
to be blocked since the Y originates at the meter base. He thought
that asignal from next door might come in on the other Y leg (not the
other leg of the 220v). It sounded feasible at that time. The PR511
can be lived with or without so that is not a problem. The J-box
terminations are many so I'm sure that leads to quite a bit of
attenuation. I have run the home "barefoot" (all normal noisy items
disconnected and then some that i thought might cause some noise or
suck signals disconnected) while testing with the ESM-1. I have also
moved the 6201 to the other 100 amp panel and it just drops the signal
down on the other end of the house. Since I am not familiar with the
HCA02-10E and am going by this link as the information on it
http://www.leviton-lin.com/catalog/BuildPage.aspx?BuildPageID=2120
do you think it would ping pong between the 10E's ??? This article
says one must be installed in each panel according to leviton. And
then whether or not to run the 4851's both or not or at all. I can see
if the panels were in separate buildings on different transformers and
somehow coupled like the ACT234 but not sure about these.
Anyway thanks for your input.
Carl Ford
Dave Houston
Finding details on what's inside these Leviton devices is difficult. The
page you referenced has nothing on the 4851.
I think you need...
METER -> 4851 --+--> PANEL A
|
+--> PANEL B
(view with fixed fonts)
Then you may or may not need couplers or coupler/repeaters in both main
panels but I would go at this step-by-step.
Have you tried reaching a tech support person at Leviton? You might also try
the forums on Worthington's site. Tom Morgan sells this stuff and has a
pretty good understanding of it plus contacts at Leviton.
Marc F Hult
message <1134400544.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
I'm surprised that 6201's are still being sold. When my 6201 died in
January 2001, I was told by the Leviton rep who did the screening for RMA's
that the he 6201 was superceded/obsolete and the HCA02-10E was the
replacement and much better. (There was about a 2-fold _reduction_ in price
from the 6201 to the HCA02-10E so an explanation was needed for why I was
being sent something that cost 1/2 what it was replacing ...)
Note that at least some 6201's have the quirk that they will sometimes
won't start/train/boot properly if the wrong phase is energized first. This
was one of the things I had to check out before Leviton's rep would issue an
RMA. One of the leads/breakers needs to switched on first to avoid the
problem entirely which obviously doesn't happen when the power comes back on
unattended after an outage. So with two 6201's (all else equal) you only
have a one-in-four chance of everything coming up right.
You write that you have low measured signal strength in some places. Have
you tried switching circuits one-by-one at the breaker panel(s) to determine
whether removing particular circuits has more effect than others? The length
of the wires themselves is not nearly as much an issue in terms of signal
loss as are devices connected to them that have a low impedance at 120khz
("signal suckers". This is where having a circuit diagram is very helpful.
There may be equipment plugged in that you are unaware of or not suspect to
be causing a problem.
Yes, the HCA02-10E amplifies according to Leviton: the HCA02-10E "also
amplifies and repeats command signals to maintain proper signal strength
throughout the DHC network".
http://www.leviton.com/sections/prodinfo/newprod/npleadin.htm
Note that there have reportedly been several firmware revisions of the
HCA02-10E.
HTH ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
carlford
Meter -------- + ------- 4851 ------panel A ------6201 (connecting
both legs of this panel)---sub pnl A
|
| --------4851 -------panel B -------- Sub Panel B
The link i referred to is the information on the HCA02-10E that you
suggested might help and I was wondering about the use of two of these
units one in each panel and the ping pong effect it might start.
Marc,
They (the 6201's) are still in stock in some places. I'm sure they are
just NOS though. I have been running "barefoot" just normal (not
flourscent, halogen, or HID fixtures) and nothing else. Tv's and all
electronics, surge supressors, computers, Wall warts or anything
plugged in anywhere. Trying to alleviate any potential problems. It
seems that some companies claim they amplify when in reality they just
pass to the other leg of the 220 feed. And I was looking to amplify the
signal to the sub panel B as that is the weakest point.
Thanks again
Carl Ford
carlford
"Uncle Phil" which I had emailed last week did email me directly and
has given me some input also as of this afternoon. Since you
referenced him on your website I thought I would let you know he is
still around at ACT. I did like your CM-11A, panel of sorts setup.
That is a good idea and I will probably copy some of that setup in mine
when i get through running my ESM-1 from one end of the house to the
other.
Thanks,
Carl Ford
Dave Houston
different blocking coupler.
I still recommend correcting the problem caused by the two 4851s before
thinking about whether you need one or more HCA02-10Es. Leviton does
recommend one for each panel. I've not heard of two HCA02-10Es playing
"ping-pong" but there have been ample posts about one HCA02-10E flooding the
line with spurious commands. Most have had no problems while others have had
no end of problems with the HCA02-10E. That's one more reason to get the
4851 situation straight first.
One 4851 just downstream of the meter but upstream of the Y should block any
alien signals while passively coupling both panels.
carlford
I have both 4851's off (disconnected) at this time other than them
physically slipped over the Feeds. So I'm pretty sure they are NOT
blocking anything at this time whether coming from inside or out. Now
is to figure the best coupler/repeater/amplifier to to the job. Phil
Kingery did email me directly on their ACT line and suggested one
CR-234 on panel A and suggests as you to do without any 4851's unless
that i am sure there is an outside signal coming in thus treating the 2
100 amp panels as one. Do you think the HCA02-10E would do the same
installed in this way ???
Thanks again,
Carl Ford
Dave Houston
I understand that they are off at this point.
My point is that they were never installed correctly and this could have
been a part of the signal strength problem.
One correctly installed 4851 _might_ obviate the need for anything else. We
won't really know until the 4851 installation is corrected.
OTOH, if you feel there's no need to block external signals, an HCA02-10E or
6201 (or better yet two of the ACT coupler repeaters) in each panel might do
the trick.
carlford
I do understandand that they are probably installed incorrectly (the
4851's). There is only one other house on my transformer and there
will never be any more than the two of us on it. Since that is the
case won't the transformer stop any other outside signals coming from
say down the street ??? I can and will for go them for now and then if
need be later can rerout the incoming lines as you depicted in your
drawing. Now on to the choice of HCA02-10E's or 6201's or ACT's.
Remember that each 100amp panel has a sub panel attached. Like this
6201 Bridging Capacitor
| |
incoming-----+------Panel A----- Sub Panel A (Within 6 feet of panel
A)
| (breakers) (breakers)
|
|
+-----Panel B-------- Sub Panel B (3 stories up)
(breakers) (breakers)
| |
Capacitor Capacitor
This current setup gives me the best coverage with a few circuits on
sub panel B getting only a weak signal. This is the latest
configuration. Most X10 controllers reside on this panel. One Cm15a and
a Tw523 that communicates from a Comfort Security System.
If the 6201 is placed in Panel B then I get some weak signals on Sub
panel A. This configuration was the worst one.
I even split the 6201 leads (observing the correct "polarity") and
attached one lead to each Panel A and B. This worked fairly well
signal strenght wise but very unreliable in that I had to repeat
commands a lot. Any macro's for cm11'a or cm15's had to have the units
placed into them in a certain order else those units would not respond.
Here I also had the 4851's both on as I used this setup for over a
year. There is little or no difference strength wise with the 4851's in
or out of circuit here.
The capacitors were only put in after moving the 6201 to Panel A and
don't do much at this point either.
As I read back over this post it seems that amplification is needed as
no matter where I place the 6201 there is always a weak end out there
somewhere. Again this is without any electronics, chargers, computers,
cordless phones plugged in. The Air handlers are the only appliances
on so the normal noise makers or "suckers" are off line in the above
instances.
Thanks,
Carl Ford
Dave Houston
The 4851 will only block signals from the neighbor sharing your transformer.
Anything else should not get through the transformer.
However, the description of the 4851 says it also acts as a passive coupler
so it might help with signal strength as well.
The best setup would probably be one properly installed 4851 and then a
coupler/repeater in each main panel. If you still have problems with
sub-panel B, maybe a BoosterLinc from SmartHome will address that. I believe
Bruce Robin has used them successfully to address similar issues.
Given that many people have had problems with the HCA02-10E and that this is
a vacation home I think I would go with the ACT coupler/repeater to avoid
arriving to an HCA02-10E that has gone berserk. You are probably going there
to relax not to troubleshoot your X-10 system.
carlford
Thanks again. I had installed the caps to bridge what the 4851's would
not be coupling as they are off line. Do you think one would do or
should I get two. Is the CR134 enough or the CR234 better. This is
here in the US and a 110v-220v system split phase. Any you are right
about being a vacation home but I am there a lot and really enjoy
messing with it. It talks and calls me when things are not right.
Small residential community on an island off the NC coast.
I reeeally appreciate your input. You must live on your computer as
you are all over the place in HA and I know that you have been since I
started messing with X10 over 9 years ago.
Merry Christmas
yes I said it and don't care if it's politically correct or not. If
this is not your holiday of choice then I hope you have a happy one
when it's your time. We all should be happy for each other and a
little more understanding instead of being defensive.
Carl Ford
Frank Olson
It's called X-10 Pro Design Book, Published by "Silent Servant Home
Control, Inc." Authored by Robert N. Bucceri.
>
> Why should anyone take that advice instead of Phil Kingery's from Advanced
> Control Technologies (ACT) who authoritatively goes into considerable detail
> on why and how to deploy multiple couplers?
>
> See http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery03.htm
> http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery04.htm
> http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery20.htm
Thanks for the links, Marc.
Dan Lanciani
| 6201 Bridging Capacitor
| | |
| incoming-----+------Panel A----- Sub Panel A (Within 6 feet of panel
| A)
| | (breakers) (breakers)
| |
| |
| +-----Panel B-------- Sub Panel B (3 stories up)
| (breakers) (breakers)
| | |
| Capacitor Capacitor
You need to be careful mixing passive coupling and repeaters. Although
I've traced only the CR230's circuit, I believe that most repeaters drive
the two legs with carriers 180 degrees out of phase (presumably for the
benefit of 220V-only receivers). Thus any passive coupling that doesn't
flip the phase works against the repeater. Based on the cautions I've read
I think that the 4851 also couples without flipping the phase, though this
was not immediately obvious on casual inspection.
I'm puzzled that you see a significant difference when moving the repeater
from panel A to panel B if the 4851s are out of the picture. Taking this
at face value (always risky :) you might want to try a CR234 on one panel
(whichever hears the house best) connected by its SCC terminals to a CA000
on the other panel. The CA000 is a dumb output driver. The two problems
are (1) I don't know who actually sells the CA000 at this point and (2)
I assume Phil Kingery would have mentioned this idea to you if he thought
it was appropriate.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Dave Houston
>You need to be careful mixing passive coupling and repeaters. Although
>I've traced only the CR230's circuit, I believe that most repeaters drive
>the two legs with carriers 180 degrees out of phase (presumably for the
>benefit of 220V-only receivers). Thus any passive coupling that doesn't
>flip the phase works against the repeater. Based on the cautions I've read
>I think that the 4851 also couples without flipping the phase, though this
>was not immediately obvious on casual inspection.
If that's the case, wouldn't any incidental coupling from 220V ovens,
dryers, etc. work against the repeater.
How many 220V X-10 receivers are there?
Dave Houston
technical documentation on these devices. It looks like Leviton has
discontinued the 4851 and now offers the 6284 which appears to be identical
to the X10Pro PZZ01. The most I can find on any of these is that they block
X10 from entering and leaving and also passively couple up to 3 phases.
Leviton does recommend a coupler/repeater for each panel but whether the
4851 (or PZZ01) may negatively impact the coupler/repeaters is not
addressed. I don't know whether two of them would get into the ping-ponging
that Phil Kingery describes but assume that Leviton would not recommend two
if that were the case. That's why I suggested the forums at
http://www.worthingtonsolutions.com/ and Tom Morgan. They may have seen
similar installations. They can also get assistance from Leviton for complex
cases.
ACT would probably recommend a single CR234 coupler/repeater. I think the
CR134 is for 3 phase systems only so it's not applicable here. I don't know
whether a properly installed 4851 would create problems for their CR234. I
think you need to ask Phil which coupler/repeater and whether or not you
should keep a properly installed 4851.
On holidays I'm an "original intent" kind of guy. Christmas was not a
federal holiday until about 1870. ;)
Frank Olson
I'd still recommend going with my original suggestion. Use only one
blocker as Dave H. described. Everything I've learned about X-10 I got
from "my bible" (the Design Manual I first mentioned). Every X-10
system I've installed has worked flawlessly. Most of the wholesalers I
deal with know little of the subject. One of them recognized that home
automation was going to take off and took it upon themselves to get some
information together for their Dealers. That was in 1998.
Dave Houston
is for A10 & X-10.
Here are a few links which might help.
http://www.worthingtonsolutions.com/activekb/index.php?ToDo=view&questId=25&catId=5
http://www.leviton.com/pdfs/dhctechman.pdf (out of date)
http://www.edcheung.com/automa/blocker.htm
http://www.edcheung.com/automa/repeater.htm
Note that Ed Cheung wrote that ACT says not to use both the whole house
blocker and coupler/repeater but that he saw no problems while doing so.
That was some years back so things might have changed.
carlford
Like the others here I have been a fan of yours for over 9 years and
thanks for looking at my problem. Phil suggested the following in this
cut and paste from his email to me.
" As far as you question on "the 2 100amp panel installation ???", I
wrote most of those old articles from 1996 through 2001. My
responsibilities have since changed and I am no longer in that
position.
However, having said that, let me see if I can give you some things to
consider.
1. First, unless you know that you have a problem with noise or
signals coming "onto" your house from the outside, I would not suggest
using the filter-blocks.
2. If your two 100-amp panels are side-by-side and fed from the same
transformer (and, most likely, the same meter), you should be able to
treat them as one big 200 amp panel.
3. If you can (and you are willing to experiment, and you answered
'true' to the two conditions above), order a CR234 and have your
electrician remove the two filter-blocks and the 6201, then install the
CR234 into one of the panels. It probably will not matter which panel,
but if I was forced to make a choice, I would put it on the panel with
the most X-10 controlled devices.
4. Please be aware that your problem also could be noise or some other
signal related issue, but buying a new CR234 is less expensive than
buying (and then trying to learn how to use) the necessary test
equipment. Plus, it is far less expensive than hiring me to
troubleshoot it for you. Therefore, I am basing my recommendation only
on the information you have provided.
Good luck, and I hope we are both right. "
As far as the difference when moving the 6201 from panel A to B the
only thing I can think of is that CM15A and Comfort's Tw523 are located
on circuits in panel A.
Dave,
As always appreciate you keeping up with this. There are 60+ recievers
and all of them are X-10's. I also think the 6201 would ping pong with
a CR234 also simply because I know first hand that they will do so with
a simpler PR511 under certain conditions.
I will look up Tom Morgan on worthington's discussions and see if he
has any input. I had read some of his articles and did not see an
exact setup like this but I will ask him anyway and let him know of
this discussion over here.
Frank,
Thanks again and as you look at this where would you suggest the
Blocker be put in panel A, panel B or before the Y ????.
As I hear from others I will post their replies or excerpts of them
here to keep everyone interested informed.
Thanks Again to all interested and concerned.
Carl Ford
Frank Olson
Before the "Y" (as Dave illustrated) and in the closest panel to it.
Frank Olson
> Why should anyone take that advice instead of Phil Kingery's from Advanced
> Control Technologies (ACT) who authoritatively goes into considerable detail
> on why and how to deploy multiple couplers?
Sorry for the double response. I guess I missed this on the "first
pass"... :-)
Easy answer. The suggestion I made didn't involve connecting more
"couplers". I suggested he remove one of his *blockers*. I think he
already has all the "couplers" he needs. I also suggested connecting
the X10 Pro surge suppressor and eliminating all his capacitors.
carlford
Thanks and I forgot to mention that I do have Levition's surge
protectors on each 100 amp panel. They are a must out there due to the
constant surges. In the old house you would loose a tv about every 3
years computer power supplies about every 2 years lots of bulbs. The
salt plays heck with the power delivery on the island. Some evenings
you can see a glow around some of the transformers up and down the
streets. It's kind of pretty but also kind of eerie. The capacitors
are only in the setup for testing purposes and as of now the "blockers"
are disconnected from their breakers completely.
One other thing comes to mind I am 28 feet from the power lines and am
at eye level with them on the 3rd floor. I had never realized that the
mains were NOT insulated. I asked one of the CP&L workers about this
and they said the salt would get under the insulation and make the
lines deterriorate much faster than if they were bare.
Thanks again for your input.
Carl Ford
Dan Lanciani
Indeed it does, though no more so than any 120V load works against the
signal on a single leg. The impedance of 220V loads at 120kHz isn't
generally all that much lower than that of 120V loads. The problem comes
when you try to create a low impedance path between phases with a big
capacitor, tuned couplers, or what have you. As far as the repeater is
concerned this is exactly like deliberately installing a "signal sucker" load.
| How many 220V X-10 receivers are there?
How many are there where? Apparently they are common in industry, but
there are none in my house. For that reason I've been toying with the
idea of modifying a CR230 to drive the legs in phase. I've repaired the
unit with the bad power supply (if anyone cares, yes, the cap had leaked
as well from the heat) so I have one to play with. It isn't completely
trivial since the output driver circuit does not appear to be symmetrical.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
carlford
If they were flipped 180 wouldn't reversing the the leads to the
breakers (two legs of 220v) put them back ????
And if so shouldn't we be checking that on our setups as well.
Thanks,
Carl Ford
Dan Lanciani
| Dan Lanciani,
| Like the others here I have been a fan of yours for over 9 years and
| thanks for looking at my problem. Phil suggested the following in this
| cut and paste from his email to me.
|
| " As far as you question on "the 2 100amp panel installation ???", I
| wrote most of those old articles from 1996 through 2001. My
| responsibilities have since changed and I am no longer in that
| position.
[...]
| 2. If your two 100-amp panels are side-by-side and fed from the same
| transformer (and, most likely, the same meter), you should be able to
| treat them as one big 200 amp panel.
The fact that you can see a significant difference between connection
to the two panels is what makes this difficult. It suggests that there
is some impediment to the signal between the two panels. Assuming that
you can't change this situation you won't be able to treat the two panels
as if they were one.
You could try to figure out what is going on or just accept that there is
significant (but not complete) isolation between the panels and work from
there. This is really the worst possible case since without complete
isolation it is very tricky to use multiple repeaters, and with poor coupling
you really want something on each panel. I'd be very tempted to try the
CA000 (with CR234) if it is still available.
| As far as the difference when moving the 6201 from panel A to B the
| only thing I can think of is that CM15A and Comfort's Tw523 are located
| on circuits in panel A.
That may well explain the functional differences, but the fact that there
is a difference at all between two panels which I assume are connected
by heavy (and not too long) cables to the same meter is troubling...
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Dan Lanciani
| The CR230 is probably the ACT model you need. It's for X-10 while the CR234
| is for A10 & X-10.
The CR234 does have the (potentially useful) SCC connection and some
configuration options to ignore repeated signals.
| Note that Ed Cheung wrote that ACT says not to use both the whole house
| blocker and coupler/repeater but that he saw no problems while doing so.
I use them together as well (in the house with the annoying 200kHz noise).
It's the least bad solution and it works reliably, but I think it's right
on the edge. Hence my interest in modifying a repeater. I suppose I
should first make absolutely sure that the blocker couples in phase.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Dan Lanciani
| Dan,
| If they were flipped 180 wouldn't reversing the the leads to the
| breakers (two legs of 220v) put them back ????
I'm afraid not. It's their phase relative to each other that matters.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
carlford
The the panels are both side by side and both feed from the bottom of
the meter directly behind and in the middle of both panels. There is
not but about 12 to 14 inches of cable beeding to each panel A and B.
The difference i record by switching the 6201 from panel A to B is
measured at the furtherest point from the sub panels and then at the
outlets after those sub panels..
6201 Bridging Capacitor
| |
incoming-----+------Panel A----- Sub Panel A (Within 6 feet of panel)
weak outlet 2 1/2 stories
power |
from A
| (breakers) (breakers)
|
|
+-----Panel B-------- Sub Panel B (3 stories up)
weak outlet 3 stories from B
(breakers) (breakers)
| |
Capacitor Capacitor
When the 6201 is in panel A (as pictured) the furtherest point is sub
panel B (3rd floor) and then outlets on the opposite end of that floor
that are the weakest.
When the 6201 is in panel B the furtherest point is sub panel A (close
to both Panel A and B) but with outlets 2 and 1/2 stories away and on
the opposite ends of the house that are the weakest.
Trying to guess in linear feet they are about the same distance to the
furtherest point.
I have tested with and without the caps in circuit and all combinations
of caps in and out of circuit. The caps are for testing purposes only.
Total square feet in house is 4800 +
I do now understand about their phases being relative to each other
coming from the couplers or repeaters.
Again Thanks for your input. I have not heard directly from Tom Morgan
yet at Worthington but hope to do soon and will put his thoughts on the
table also as I got the original 6201 from them some 7 years ago.
Carl Ford
Marc F Hult
<Use_the_e...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote in message
<Yjtnf.100552$Eq5.41216@pd7tw1no>:
>Marc F Hult wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:46:53 GMT, Frank Olson
>> <Use_the_e...@yoursecuritysource.com> wrote in message
>> <h98nf.96119$Eq5.71028@pd7tw1no>:
>>
>
>> What is Frank's (anonymous?) "X-10 design book" that "states you should
>> only use one" ?
>
>It's called X-10 Pro Design Book, Published by "Silent Servant Home
>Control, Inc." Authored by Robert N. Bucceri.
>
>>
>> Why should anyone take that advice instead of Phil Kingery's from
Advanced
>> Control Technologies (ACT) who authoritatively goes into considerable
detail
>> on why and how to deploy multiple couplers?
>>
>> See http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery03.htm
>> http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery04.htm
>> http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery20.htm
>
>Thanks for the links, Marc.
Interesting.
www.Amazon.com shows this:
Publisher: Silent Sevant Home Control; 2nd ed edition (1998)
Language: English
ASIN: B0006REPVW
and lists a couple copies available.
Does this reference deal quantitatively with X-10 signal issues, or does it
use 'signal sucker' and similar language to qualitatively explain problems?
Kingery's articles started in 1996, and so are approximately
contemporaneous.
Thanks ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
carlford
Leviton 4860's I think. I am not there now but will get the model
number off of them sometime tomorrow. There is one installed on each
100 amp panel. I bought them when I started setting this house up at
the same time I bought the 4851 blockers and the 6201 coupler repeater.
They have never tripped and they are the one shot kind (if they go off
they must be replaced). The led's on both of them are definately on
and I assumed they are working, however: I never did try any test with
them off. What do you all think ??? Do you know of these causing a
problem in the past ??? I don't remember reading anything about a
problem with them but since there are 2 of them and I'm not sure what
is inside of them they might pose a problem, I suppose ???
Thanks again to everyone,
Carl Ford
Frank Olson
> Interesting.
>
> www.Amazon.com shows this:
> Publisher: Silent Sevant Home Control; 2nd ed edition (1998)
> Language: English
> ASIN: B0006REPVW
>
> and lists a couple copies available.
>
> Does this reference deal quantitatively with X-10 signal issues, or does it
> use 'signal sucker' and similar language to qualitatively explain problems?
>
> Kingery's articles started in 1996, and so are approximately
> contemporaneous.
Actually he uses what he terms as an "example home" to describe the
operation and installation of X-10 Pro components. He doesn't once
mention "signal sucker", although he uses other terms that are (I
assume) synonymous. Since I purchased the manual in 1998, I've sort of
used it as my "bible". I haven't experienced a single problem with any
components I've installed (other than having to return a very vew
defective items). Mind you my applications are more security related
than home automation (flashing outside lights during an alarm or turning
on different lights on a rotational basis to make it look like people
are home when they're not, turning on lights remotely or during an entry
delay and such like), but lately that's changed. It's really an
excellent resource, packed full of illustrations and sample set-ups.
I'd recommend it for anyone here without hesitation.
Dave Houston
Do you know whether it's possible to disable the passive coupling of the
blocking couplers without affecting the blocking?
Dan Lanciani
| Dan,
|
| Do you know whether it's possible to disable the passive coupling of the
| blocking couplers without affecting the blocking?
I never traced the full circuit, but intuitively I don't think it would
be possible without adding active buffers.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Larry Loucks
have a 6000 sq. ft home that is fed with 2 200 amp panels. There is one
sub panel. Each panel has a Leviton 51120-1 whole house surge suppresser
on it. The feeds run from the meter which is around 100 ft from panels.
I built this home so I was able tell the electricians how to organize
the panels. One of the feeds, the one with the sub panel, has all of
the circuits that I don't control, appliances, hot water heaters, HVAC,
etc. The other panel with the lighting, outlets, etc., has a passive
X10 phase coupler on it.
I use PCS switches, numerous lamp & appliance modules and HCA to run the
house.
This setup works very very well. I have tried a HCA-02 Leviton repeater
and although it worked well from a signal level point of view they have
a problem with certain sequences so I just went back to the passive
coupler. From what I have heard the ACT repeaters to do not have this
problem.
I am able to get a good X10 signal across to the second panel for a
couple of outside light circuits that we had to put on that panel. Of
course the X10 signal from my controller has to go out to the meter and
back to get to the other panel but it does work.
I would recommend the following to start:
1) I am not clear on your whole house surge suppressers but put X10
friendly ones at each panel.
2) Put X10 passive couplers on each panel. What I mean by that is a
passive coupler that is tuned to the X10 120 Khz frequency not just a
cap that will pass a lot of noise as well.
3) Control the majority of your lighting from a controller located very
close to the panels. For example, send the "switch on/off" signal to
the controller and then let the controller turn the light on/off. For
remote circuits this cuts in half the distance that the X10 signal has
to go.
4) Of course do all of the standard stuff using filters to improve the
signal.
4) If your panels are not well organized and you have to cross the panel
boundary all of the time and it doesn't work reliably I see a couple of
approaches to try.
1) use a controller for each panel and go controller to controller for
programs that have to cross the panels. I assume the controllers are
located at the panels so at least you only have the distance to the
meter to cover not another long run of house wiring.
2) Use the ACT repeaters that support multiple repeaters and use one
each panel.
Larry
carlford
and order an ACT CR-234 for installation later this week at which time
I will be there to give the Surge model numbers.
Thanks for all input thus far and I will post my results ASAP.
I never did get a reply from Tom Morgan. Someone else at that site did
also suggest the Cr-234.
Thanks again,
Carl Ford