1964 Letters To Gail 3 - The Year Paul Twitchell Took The Wrong Turn?

[Henosis Sage]

1964 Letters To Gail 3 - The Year Paul Twitchell Took The Wrong Turn?

aka The Moment When Paul Twitchell Did Not Make The Better Choice

OK so I am drawing attention not only LTG 3, but to that whole series
of Letters to Gail by Paul Twitchell from 1962 through to 1965.


For those who may have never read LTG3 or have lost the book,
here are two links to the TWO known versions of it.

1964-1965 Letters To Gail Vol III (January 1964 to March 1965)
1990 Edition [OCR Text Scan] Edited under the Direction of Harold Klemp.
Most likely originally Edited by Patti-Simpson Rivinus circa 1984
Originally Publish for High Initiates as a Discourse Series
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPNk1qRWQwNWp2bXM

1983-06 LTG 3 - the FIRST Pulped Version
[Partial Original Publication by Darwin Gross x only 49 Pages]
1964-1965 Letters To Gail Vol III (January 1964 to May 1965)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPUkRLQU5sRFo3X2c


So what? Maybe nothing. Who cares? Probably no one. :-)

Now and then I think about the "history" of all this business, and this time
came to mind.

LTG3 is different than the other two because they were written after Paul and
Gail were married and living together in San Fran.

Maybe he delivered them each day in an envelop at the breakfast table. Think of
cost of postage stamps this must have saved him. :-)

It's different because soon after the LTG 3 series of letters were finished
Paul and Gail setup the Eckankar "Company". They were then in San Diego CA.

And at about the same time (March 1965) that these letters were finished Paul
started his first public Eckankar talks at the CA Parapsychology Foundation, and
started signing people up for the his yearly Discourses series.

When I looked at all this from afar, I think I may have noticed something, and
therefore here's this thread - it all kind of came down to a single moment in
time - signified in the end of LTG 3 letters - a series which began years before
in December 1962.

Am I imagining it? Probably. Does it matter? I am not really sure .... let's
wait and see where it goes - which I myself am not sure what the destination
could be. ;-)

More later

(as Paul used to close his letters with)

[Henosis Sage]

Here's some more

(golly "later" didn't take long to arrive!!! hehehehe)

Part One


I'd like to start in the future and look backwards with the benefit of
hindsight.

To kick that off I going to a moment in time from January 1969 .... a time that
is 5 years after Paul began writing the letters in LTG 3 January 1964.

He meets with a reporter in LA Wanda-Sue Parrott at a restaurant.

If you want to see that article she wrote about him, go here:

1969-01 Herald-Examiner LA - Paul Twitchell interview by Wanda Sue Parrott [Original scan] - SOUL TRAVEL Thousands Join Up -
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPRGFYX1JScHNUT1E

Next comes a chat between us in 2013

1969-01 Paul Twitchell & Eckankar in 1969
- A 2013 Interview with Wanda Sue Parrott -
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-M0yAR0UPhPX056VTR1dGJlU0U

The aspect that interests me the most is section from page 17 from that file

[QUOTING]
Wanda replied soon after:
March 14, 2013

Sean, we are having some major power outage problems... I will be brief.

CARLOS CASTANENDA AND PAUL CAST THEMSELVES AS THE SAME TYPES, AND PAUL SEEMED TO THRIVE ON
PUBLIC ATTENTION WHEREAS CARLOS WENT UNDERGROUND AND INTO SILENCE. CARLOS USED TO SAY TO THOSE
WHO WERE LOOKING FOR A SPIRITUAL LEADER, 'DO NOT MAKE OF ME A GOD. PAY HEED TO THE LESSONS I
TAUGHT YOU.. IT IS THE LESSONS, NOT I, THAT COUNT."

BUT HUMANS NEED HERO FIGURAND SO CARLOS AND PAUL HAVE JOINED THE PANTHEON OF
PSEUDO-SAINTS, BOOSTED AT FIRST BY HIS OWN NEEDS AND THEN HOISTED, PRAISED,
PINIONED AND EVEN CRUCIFIED BY THE MINDS OF OTHERS.

PAUL GOT TRAPPED IN THE TANGLED WEB HE WOVE...and so did Carlos.

I SUSPECT ECKISTS ARE REWRITING ECK INTO WHATEVER THEY WANT AND NEED IT TO BE.
I HAVE A FRIEND WHO SWEARS HE SAW REBEZAR TARZ IN A BATHROOM. HE WENT IN THE
MEN'S ROOM AND WALKED OUT THE WOMEN'S ROOM--AFTER PASSING THROUGH THE WALL.

Those who made of Eckankar a religion probably did the same as the UFO buffs
did--THEY MADE JESUS A SPACE BROTHER WHO CAME TO EARTH ON A SPACE SHIP...
THEY REWROTE CHRISTIANITY TO SUIT THEIR NEEDS.

Paul might have done the same...AFTER ALL, THERE ARE AS MANY IMAGES OF JESUS
AS THEIR ARE MINDS TO BELIEVE IN AND CONCEIVE OF HIM...

I AM HAVING AN AWFUL TIME TYPING ON THIS SCREEN, SO MUST CLOSE FOR NOW...WILL
TALK LATER. HOPE YOU GET THE COMPUTER FIXED OR A NEW ONE THAT DOES NOT COST A
FORTUNE. IF THE COMPUTER IS DOWN, HOW ARE YOU DOING E-MAIL?

Can you imagine a world in which Jesus is not the most famous and revered
figure of all time? SUCH A WORLD WILL EXIST IN THE FUTURE, IF MAN DOES NOT
UPSET NATURE SO MUCH THAT THE PLANET PULLS A POWER PLAY THAT WIPES US OUT.

IN SUCH A WORLD, WHERE WOULD MEN LIKE CARLOS, PAUL AND THE POPE FIT? MAYBE AS
RELICS DELEGATED TO A DARK AGE OF IGNORANCE THAT PRECEDED A TRUE AGE OF
ENLIGHTENMENT.

YEARS AGO I WROTE FOR ORION UNDER THE NAME WANDI LOZIER, WITH A COLUMN CALLED
'ASK WANDI," AND I WISELY ENDED IT BEFORE PEOPLE CONSIDERED ME OF THE ILK PAUL
STROVE TO BECOME... I DO NOT REGRET HAVING KEPT MY SPIRITUAL LIFE PRIVATE--WELL,
MOSTLY PRIVATE.

Some of it is coming out now--now that I am old and getting ready to go!
BYE FOR NOW.
WANDA

---

Re: Sean asks: "Do you believe the focus of many thousands of people placing their attention onto Paul would have any psychic affects on him?"

YES. THEY EXPECTED HIM TO BE EITHER A SO-CALLED DIVINE BEING, OR GOD, OR A FRAUD.
---

Wanda continued:

SEAN, PAUL COMMITTED SUICIDE OF HIS PRIVATE SELF WHEN HE WENT PUBLIC AND
ALLOWED HIMSELF TO BECOME A PUBLIC FIGURE... EVEN IF HE STARTED OUT TO
SINCERELY BE OF SERVICE, THE GLITZ AND GLAMOUR WERE TEMPTATIONS, AND MARRYING
A YOUNG WIFE EVEN ADDED TO THE STRESS.

SO WHETHER HE WAS POISONED FROM A PERSON OUTSIDE HIMSELF, OR HIS OWN MENTAL
MACHINATIONS DID THE TRICK, HE DID HIMSELF IN BY WEAVING THE WEB IN WHICH HE
GOT TANGLED.

A HEART ATTACK IS THE ULTIMATE OUTCOME OF AN UNBALANCED LIFE THAT IS FRAUGHT
WITH PAIN, SORROW, REMORSE AND LONELINESS... AN EMPTY LIFE DESPITE OUTER FULLNESS.

YES, AND NO. HE DID COMMIT SUICIDE EVEN IF, NO, HE DID NOT PULL THE TRIGGER OR
TAKE THE PILL. THAT IS THE FEELING I HAVE ON THE MATTER.

WHY DID GAIL MARRY HIM: why did he marry Gail? Both of them used the other to
get something they thought they needed at the time. Part of your answer might
lie with Gail. You said she got a $500,000 settlement of some sort. Was she a
gold digger who married a vulnerable old man?

What are the basic precepts of ECK? The teachings themselves. If they are valid,
then all else is flotsam and jetsam on a human sea of cacophony--enough to drive
one nuts if he/she listens to it too long.

Tra la la... listen to the birds' songs... they are truth tellers and far more
wise than Eck.

W

[end quote]

.... More Later

[Henosis Sage]

I'll pause here to add in a couple of historical factoids fwiw

The 1983 version was (imho) most likely edited only by Darwin and his secretary
Betty Burlin.

I do not know how extensive that editing was, or if they included all the
letters during that time period of LTG 3 covered.

Given it is seems rational expected that several bits of LTG 1 & 2 were edited
by Gail and Darwin, where later "eckankar terms" were inserted into the old
texts, the same may well have occurred in LTG 3 as well.

The 1990 version of LTG 3 is shorter than Darwins version by about 3 months
worth of letters. I have never seen a full copy of that original book.

If anyone has one, I would love get an OCR scan of it for the PTHA archive.

In 1983 after Harold won the Battle of the ECK Board, the entire print of 60K
LTG 3 copies were "pulped" - obviously some copies survived that.

I think that's all.

Down the track at some point I will get back to Gail's role, the $500k she got
in 1982, and especially the time frame of January 1969 - 5 years after LTG 3
was started. That's a critical timing point - another "turning point" imho,
a time when Paul Twitchell's choice at the end of LTG 3 has an outcome of some
significance in the overall history of the "movement".

You see, (or maybe not) all these little historical events interconnect and
interrelate in different ways with each other.... and others not mentioned.

Whoever is telling the STORY are the one's who determines what arises along
the way. And which "events" matter more to their story.

What this means is not so much the "history", a series of "facts in time and space", can tell us what happened and what it all might mean, but HOW the
story is told.

But that, is another story! :-)

So, More Later

[fife]

One of the letters in III is pseudoreligion. There's so much irony to this that I'm not even going to comment.

What Wanda Sue says about Jesus is interesting. "There are as many images of Jesus as there are minds to believe in and conceive of him..." Werner posted something similar the other day (that) someone maintains that "on the next plane" there are 35 Jesuses and that those following 35 have no idea what 29 is teaching. Or words to that effect.

Everyone has their own idea and ideals. Even when it's the same icon. And follows those ideas and ideals that they have. Whether it's Jesus, "the Bible" or something else.

The Letters to Gail showed (to me) what a crank Paul was or could be. I have no idea why E-kar published them. (I wouldn't have.) I don't know if he was trying to convince himself, Gail, or what.

[Etznab]

I think they published it (in part) because it was material for a book. And books sell!

[fife]

Yes. It seems that during Phase 2, the Darwin Gross era, revenue streams were a prime issue if not the prime issue. That time seems to be characterized in that way. That, and some nasty measures in defense of Eckankar which were less obvious if not entirely unknown to the average membership.

[Etznab]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 2:40:34 PM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:
> I think they published it (in part) because it was material for a book. And books sell!

After Paul died, I think there were probably thoughts about unpublished works and how to use them.

No telling how much pseudo history / religion was concocted by Darwin and Gail as they (and others) edited Paul's unpublished works. Including Letters to Gail!

[Henosis Sage]

On Wednesday, 22 May 2019 21:13:00 UTC+10, Henosis Sage wrote:

<snipped>

>
> But that, is another story! :-)
>
> So, More Later

OK then. Back on Topic.

To be clear, this series of posts is not going to be about any individual Letters.

They may arise now and then, and anyone can add whatever they wish of course,
don't let me hold you back.

It's just not my purpose, or intent, to discuss or analyze the kinds of topics
and the kind of writing that PT was doing - except in general terms, as kind of
"overview" which compares the LTG series with his other published ECK books and
Discourses.

I am coming at this (rightly or wrongly) with a few Premises (or Givens) in mind.
and I am not sure where it's heading because I am formulating it as I go ...
probably too long winded, but ya get that. :-)

Some premises are:
1) The content of the letters people may feel or OK, fair and true or not.
That's not my issue or my focus here.
2) My focus is more on Paul and where his "head was at" in 1965 when the
LTG 3 series ended.
3) My premise is that at this point in time he had several courses of direction
he could have taken. We know which course he did take, the rest is history.
4) I want to explore some hypothetical "What Ifs" and the implications of those
had they been taken instead.
5) Unlike every other book the LTG series can be placed in time and place as
they were being written.
6) We may not know which bits were later "edited to fit the ECK brand or dropped
out" but we can place what is being said and still connect that back to a
partly known historical record, and to different other "influences" on Paul
eg Scientology, Ruhani, Gail's Initiation by Kirpal Singh etc. and what came
later.
7) The writing style in LTG is totally different than every other book/discourse
by Paul. Maybe closest to it is the DWTM book in how it is broken down in
"topics" but that book is still very different, be it in the 1950s originally
or later when published by eckankar.
8) We know many sources for books like DWTM but it;s not that clear what all the
sources were for each LTG letter.
9) The LTG series was written at a seminal time when Paul was seriously "formulating" what Eckankar might become. Gail was a listening post reflecting back to him what things worked and maybe what things didn't.
10) He seems to be focused on the basics and laying out his own kind of Premises
about "life" for Gail to begin from.
11) And he covers topics in ways that I can't recall very often actually showing up in his books and discourses. They might in bits and pieces, but not like he writes them in LTG. It really is different, imho.
12) Most of the feedback I have ever heard from ECKists about LTG, including on a.r.e. is that they really liked them and really got a lot out of those individual letters. (be they true or BS, is besides the point, imho.)
13) I have often seen other referencing those letters, I have done so myself.
I think they had a positive impact on many people, Gail included I would say.
imho they tend to make one think about the issues raised and reflect.
14) Maybe a similar format is Paul's "Illuminated Way Letters" .. except they
were very much about a time when Eckankar had been formed as distinct group and
culture.
15) Lastly the LTG letters are grounded in the real world life of Paul and Gail.
He talks about mundane things that arise in daily life, movies, meetings with
Dr John Lovelace (Ruhani) etc., things that Gail had encountered.

So there's the Premises I;ve been thinking about, and setting the scene I guess.

Of course anyone can add whatever they wish to. :-)

[Henosis Sage]

On Thursday, 23 May 2019 14:55:36 UTC+10, Henosis Sage wrote:

> Of course anyone can add whatever they wish to. :-)

BUGGER!

I forgot my 'More Later!'

;-)

[wernertrp]

Sorry, I hit the wrong translation mode of my weak translator: den Anal-Verkehr- Ausübender

[Henosis Sage]

On Thursday, 23 May 2019 14:55:36 UTC+10, Henosis Sage wrote:

I think I'm about done, I've bored myself silly.

So what about a What If?

The story goes Paul was well read and "experienced" with religion/spirituality
whatever on calls it. He did seem to have a long term focus on it post WW2.

As Patti said he had taken info from all manner of spiritual groups/religions,
and of course by now a cursory look tells anyone that if they open their eyes.

I'm thinking about people like Joseph Campbell and Eckart Tolle (there are
others) who have looked at many religious ideas ... beliefs etc. Much comes
down to "metaphor" and influenced by culture and historical teachings/paths.

So here is Paul in 1965 at the end of the LTG series. He was widely read,
been in Kriya Yoga, Radhasoami/Ruhani, Scientology, probably Bhagat Singh Thind,
done the discourse series via (what's his name?) researched the Mormons,
Catholics, New thought etc etc etc ...

He's laid all his basic ideas with Gail, has a TTF text handy, and had just written the TFC manuscript in 1964, and has written up several discourses.

Then he goes public with ECKANAR as a major movement ambition, which 5 years
later has a Mahanta LEM, an entire hierarchy of past masters (971?) a codified practice & dogma, Initiations, the whole shebang and he's the boss man, godman.

In 64/65 he was calling an entirely new Philosophy .... based on soul travel.

What if, instead, he stuck with it being Generic - not a "religion/movement"
and just wrote about the ASOST Ancient science of soul travel,
meditation/contemplation, steps to self-mastery, individual freedom, wisdom,
love/charity, individual power, achieving one's "bliss" and using detachment,
applying the HU and the AUM and many others ... dream study insight, waking
dreams golden tongued wisdom, and such ...

then kept on writing his articles aka LTG info, submitting those to magazines
for "free" as PR, compiling them into a best of series of books, selling
those by mail order, giving lectures here and there, and selling his "more
advanced" discourse series for a higher price?

And totally forget all about creating the "monster" edifice that he did ....

The ASOST could at some point been made into a NFP Teaching Foundation (aka
Trust) to continue on after he died, and so split the "work" into a for proofit
business and a NFP support service that eventually retained the copyrights etc.

as per Alice baileys writings today? Gail would have had full ownership at his
death, and could have continued on ... publishing his output no different that
Yoko Ono has done for John Lennon. Like wtf would have been wrong with that?

Not cover anything up, speak openly about HIS personal opinions of the pros and
cons of different religions and practices, and his best TIPS to contacting the
"inner master" "inner guide" etc etc ... which btw is something that Wanda-Sue
ended up doing herself.

Be different, have a special take/emphasis, openly discuss "universal ideas"
present in all paths (eg Campbell) and simply put it out there, and if it flew
it flew.

If Paul Twitchell found "spiritual freedom" and his "bliss" then it sure wasn't
coming through when he died ... seemed to be dramas everywhere. I never thought
of it this way before but after I got to read DOBTLEM, and had been filled in a
bit about the history of those days, one thing is for sure, at least to me,
Mr Twitchell was a long way away from being DETACHED, wasn't quite practising
detachment very successfully (imo) and he sure wasn't "happy" either.

When people look back and see the "history" of eckankar, and Paul, the main
question that arises is "Why did he do it - this way or that, did that thing or
another?" - eg copy so much material from others and reframe it into ECKANKAR's
dogma structure system.

I don't think those kinds of questions can ever be answered - only guessed at.
Because there is too much missing info we will never know. And hey, most eckists
don't know 1% of it, hey? :-) All they have is the Company lines to follow.

Anyway, I just thought I would take a different tack about these matters, and
put forward an idea about HOW it might otherwise have been ... had Paul himself
taken a different tack back in 1964 and into 1965.

It pretty much set him and everything else up to be what it ended up being.
Mostly a bit of a mess. Just another Religion with a structured belief system
........... to argue about or promote as the best thing since sliced bread.

Definitely not saying I could have done it better .. then or now.

Cheers, no more later

[Henosis Sage]

On Friday, 24 May 2019 02:40:51 UTC+10, Henosis Sage wrote:
>
> Cheers, no more later

Just a little more.

LTG 3 began in January 1964. 5 years later Brad Steiger had done IMSIAF, Paul
had been busted for plagiarising already (Orion mag), and getting barred from
many other magazines too ( probably for being a pain and the complaints from
readers with endless advertising), and he'd got push back from Ruhani Satsang in
the USA, and his dramas with Kirpal.

He waxing lyrical ie lying to Wanda Sue parrot about getting thousands of
letters a day, having 300,000 members and his BS stories about his life, Paris
Sudar singh etc, and his great healing powers eg IMSIAF etc. and the
"operations" were already going off the rails badly run, hiring volunteers who
were nutters incompetents - he was attracting people off with the faeries based
on his lies basically.

He'd set himself up as the Living ECK master Mahanta, and this huge hierarchy
behind him as the Godman, New Messiah of the Age
( one thing Maramn said "oh no, he would not ever have said that!!!" but he did)
... the further he went the bigger the stories became.

It was in IMSIAF Paul claimed he ran the whole thing as a business paying his
taxes, and wouldn't do it any other way .. but in 1969 into 1970 he changed the
whole thing to be a NFP religious org, only keeping the Copyrights and
publishing income for himself and Gail.

This is the big key imho - on eof the main things I wanted to say - Paul
Twitchell then lost control of the entire ECKANKAR Org. handing over control to
the Board of Trustees.

If you see DOBTLEM there's a section where he is talking about the Board doing
it's thing and he doing his.

You'll remember where he lost the Vote and what Patti said he said - they'll be
sorry.

Well no, it was Paul T that was "sorry" - he'd given away his power.

All of these "choices" had repercussions before he died and after. They all had
negative impacts on other people, from the next LEMs, to Gail, down the line.

Until one day in 1986 with Harold Klemp running the show, he setup the Org
differently, and retook total control as the Corporation Sole.

Then we know for certain imho now, that many if not all those people from back
in 1969, the Pattis, the darwin Gross', Helen Baird, the 8ths etc sooner or
later left the show.

Then in 2012 Patti Simpson is STILL telling me (and others) well, look you know
Paul didn't want it to be a RELIGION or a NFP show like it is now, he wanted to
Pay his Taxes. She had turned her back on Harold Klemp and was outwardly
supporting folks like Doug Marman and his "spiritual dialogues" show, and
encouraging people to LEAVE Eckankar.

Putting aside whether one accepts or rejects all the "eck dogma" Paul created,
and even assuming one has much trouble with all the plagiarising he did creating
all those fictional "eck masters" (aka Metaphors for others and Idealistic
notions) his choices in 1965 really setup what came next.

"What IF" he had taken a different track and not set himself up on that
Pedestal?

I think it would have been a better course if Eckankar had never existed, but
only represented by ASOST / Paul Twitchell's books (aka Eckhart Tolle books &
teachings) and it was simply a man writing about his stories and advice to live
a life of more freedom and get past all the bs religious systems and cultures
... Gail would never have had sell the copyrights in 1983 either.

I think it is clear, via Patti especially that what Eckankar became si NOT what
Paul Twitchell envisioned ... so how could he be "happy" about that?

iow he blew it, didn't he? And imho he blew it while writing LTG 3 in 1964/65.

The rest is "history" ...

[Etznab]

Great reading your posts on this topic! So glad you had time to share.

I just have a little something to add here. Consider Dr. Louis Bluth and his said to be relationship with Paul Twitchell and Gail. Paul's personal Doctor was it? And the 1st President of Eckankar?

O.K.?

So who was Dr. Louis Bluth? And what was his involvement with Eckankar? Well, I believe it is probably very, very, very important to discover if he was this Dr. Louis Bluth.

"[...] if we tear something down, we should have something equally good to put in its place; [... .]" - Drs. Louis and Dorothy Bluth, Berrien Springs, Mich.

http://www.aberree.com/scans/v03/v03no09/page0014.png

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/HYXOVicBw9E/-RK7pAnWGwAJ

Another link for research / trivia purposes.

"According to David Lane & Doug Marman one could get the impression that Paul Twitchel didn't meet Dr. Bluth until after Eckankar was founded, 1965-1966, etc."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cxXDP2wTta4/ZnwVX0-qFu4J

It would seem that the Bluths moved to California by 1960.

BTW. What was that rumor about Bluth trying to take over the Rosicrucians and failed? Can't verify that / haven't researched it. However, it does seem for certain Bluth had some involvement with Radhasoami and Scientology.

I think the possible Scientology connection is interesting since Paul Twitchell wrote some articles and was a Scientology counselor for a time, whatever. Even if Twitchell and Bluth hadn't met before 1965, I wonder if they had known of one another? Really, at this point I can't say for sure. But wasn't Bluth one of the main people to want Eckankar to become a religion? In spite of Twitchell???

It may be nothing, but I would like to look at any ambitions by Bluth to create something. Like, didn't he believe (also according to rumor) that he would maybe succeed Paul Twitchell? It seems Gail would have nothing to do with that. If any of it is true, I just have to wonder, What did Gail know? What did she know about Bluth and his ambitions?

[Etznab]

Also in 1965 it seems Paul Twitchell spent time at the California Parapsychology Foundation giving classes there.

[Henosis Sage]

On Friday, 24 May 2019 11:37:49 UTC+10, Etznab wrote:
> On Thursday, May 23, 2019 at 7:23:10 PM UTC-5, Henosis Sage wrote:

snippereded

> > iow he blew it, didn't he? And imho he blew it while writing LTG 3 in 1964/65.
> >
> > The rest is "history" ...
>
> Great reading your posts on this topic! So glad you had time to share.
>

Freed up some time. :-) The "moderator" is already saying he's "depressed" by
the clowns comments and what they are posting there; having to deal all alone
with the crap being posted by the "nasty gullible know-it-all fools"
I left behind in my dust.

I'm happy. He is already being spoken to like a piece of shit and ridiculed
in his very first comments pushing back the distorted rubbish those people are
posting there. The loser is already getting his just desserts. (wink)

They think they are "winners" because I quit - how can you be a winner when
you're still self-deluded and believing in other people's lies, not only that
but being a PR reps for those lies contrary to the "purpose" of the forum
itself. It's insane - because it is. (shrug)

[ does any of that sound familiar re eckankar? ]

back to the thread ... Sorry it was so long winded ... as Patti said to me:
"less is more please don;t do it again!"
Her response to me listing for her PERUSAL of all things things that I believed
were seriously 'fucked up' in eckankar by 2012 - and the bs lies and beliefs
about twitchell's real history, massive plagiarism, and his eck stories (SS/RT
etc etc etc) .

BTW maybe I should say this in a separate thread, but there is NO WAY that Patti
Simpson-Rivinus believed in all those ECK masters or in HK being a genuine sane
rational leader of eckanakr (Skelsky to)

I base this in ALL she said, other insights, and it has been confirmed separately (imho) by Stefan Meyer in his Karma Seeker book.

> I just have a little something to add here. Consider Dr. Louis Bluth and his said to be relationship with Paul Twitchell and Gail. Paul's personal Doctor was it? And the 1st President of Eckankar?
>
> O.K.?
>
> So who was Dr. Louis Bluth? And what was his involvement with Eckankar? Well, I believe it is probably very, very, very important to discover if he was this Dr. Louis Bluth.
>
> "[...] if we tear something down, we should have something equally good to put in its place; [... .]" - Drs. Louis and Dorothy Bluth, Berrien Springs, Mich.
>
> http://www.aberree.com/scans/v03/v03no09/page0014.png
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/HYXOVicBw9E/-RK7pAnWGwAJ
>

I'm unsure how you could have any doubts it was them.
Sorry I cannot recall or link to the specific ref, but iirc the eckankar
Bluth's names were Louis and Dorothy.
It's somewhere in eckankar literature.

> Another link for research / trivia purposes.
>
> "According to David Lane & Doug Marman one could get the impression that Paul Twitchel didn't meet Dr. Bluth until after Eckankar was founded, 1965-1966, etc."
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/cxXDP2wTta4/ZnwVX0-qFu4J
>

BOTH are dubious when it comes to "historical records" unless they can provide
explicit documentation - eg Lane never published in full his "letter" from Dr
Bluth shortly before he died. So who knows what is in that besides Lane.

and given BOTH their default BIASES, the thought of asking Bluth directly,
or raising it with Patti Simpson or Gail (in Doug's case) would never have
come up.

> It would seem that the Bluths moved to California by 1960.
>
> BTW. What was that rumor about Bluth trying to take over the Rosicrucians and failed? Can't verify that / haven't researched it. However, it does seem for certain Bluth had some involvement with Radhasoami and Scientology.
>

I don't know anything about the Rosicrucians stuff .. but the other two seems
certain.

> I think the possible Scientology connection is interesting since Paul Twitchell wrote some articles and was a Scientology counselor for a time, whatever. Even if Twitchell and Bluth hadn't met before 1965, I wonder if they had known of one another? Really, at this point I can't say for sure. But wasn't Bluth one of the main people to want Eckankar to become a religion? In spite of Twitchell???
>

YES he was the leader of the pack. However don;t forget what Marge Klmep also said - that they were being hit with multiple LAWSUITS due to "chelas" going off the deep end ending up in Psyche wards and so on.

$$$$$$$$$ and the Protection of ECKANKAR was their primary goal imho - that
Twitchell didn't see that or was able to deal with it, doesn't mean they were
wring and he was right.

Face it - Twichell was extremely incompetent at being a "leader" and running an
organisation. Useless would describe that best. All the excuses made by others
since then are just that. EXCUSES for lousy judgment and not having the right
skills to do what he had created. (imho)

Specifically I never accepted Patti's excuses and SPIN in that letter as being
justified - lie all these matters she was extremely BIASED and not objective at
all... when it comes to Paul and the history of eckankar.

PS remember that astrology chart I found and posted on ptha?

Where the "report" said Paul had the opportunity to "change the world" as a
life primary mission opportunity?

Well here's a FACT - he didn't - Eckankar is a *nothing burger* writ large!

> It may be nothing, but I would like to look at any ambitions by Bluth to create something. Like, didn't he believe (also according to rumor) that he would maybe succeed Paul Twitchell? It seems Gail would have nothing to do with that. If any of it is true, I just have to wonder, What did Gail know? What did she know about Bluth and his ambitions?

PERSONALITY CONFLICTS ABOUNDED.

For all we know Bluth was the only one there with any common sense and the
experience to run it properly.

Judging him by the "opinions" of gullible fools, Gail patti helen Baird, Gross,
the Marge and Harold Klemps and DOUG MARMAN's of the world is not a wise thing
to assume were "right" in their opinions.

History would suggest they were all 180 degrees wrong!!!

So I give Bluth a pass mark because there is really nothing there to judge him
one way or the other, bar "BIASED OPINIONS" selling some other story. I suspect
Lane's view was closer to the truth. I think he thought that Bluth was telling
him the "real truth".

Much like you do Etznab. ;-)

[Etznab]

O.K. Well that was really helpful. It's better to look at this from more than one angle; and I really liked your angle about Bluth.

Patti, Doug and others were biased (IMO) probably because they were implicit in allowing the problems (like weeds) to grow. I think they and others knew about the BS, but let it go. IOW the mess is still under the rug.

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 25 May 2019 00:12:51 UTC+10, Etznab wrote:
> O.K. Well that was really helpful. It's better to look at this from more than one angle; and I really liked your angle about Bluth.
>
> Patti, Doug and others were biased (IMO) probably because they were implicit in allowing the problems (like weeds) to grow. I think they and others knew about the BS, but let it go. IOW the mess is still under the rug.

Seems to be the case yes, as to bluth, and different angles, I hadn't thought
about it before like that. maybe a good sign (for me) long term. I'm not that
'smart' generally. (sigh)

[Tisra Til]

Freed up some time. :-) The "moderator" is already saying he's "depressed" by
the clowns comments and what they are posting there; having to deal all alone
with the crap being posted by the "nasty gullible know-it-all fools"
I left behind in my dust.

I'm happy. He is already being spoken to like a piece of shit and ridiculed
in his very first comments pushing back the distorted rubbish those people are
posting there. The loser is already getting his just desserts. (wink)

They think they are "winners" because I quit - how can you be a winner when
you're still self-deluded and believing in other people's lies, not only that
but being a PR reps for those lies contrary to the "purpose" of the forum
itself. It's insane - because it is. (shrug)

??? What is that in reference to? Another website? I think I lost track.

[Henosis Sage]

Yes, sorry, a side-bar with Etznab, another website, he knows what I was talking about. Some reflections which reminded me of the bs that comes with eckankar territory, that's all.

[john poo]

cant access the google accounts. Can you send both version links of letters of gail3 to my email? Sorry for the inconvenience. When did harold redo the original letters?
Thanks

[Henosis Sage]

On Monday, 3 October 2022 at 10:36:45 UTC+11, john poo wrote:
> cant access the google accounts. Can you send both version links of letters of gail3 to my email? Sorry for the inconvenience. When did harold redo the original letters?
> Thanks

Hi john,

try these links, should work, sorry but google did this 'weird' security update that has stopped all/most of the old links from working.
part of darwins ltg 3 version
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPcm80TXJXbWl0Mkk/view?usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-dKUEKeSUlVWih-82h0IWrw

harolds version
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-M0yAR0UPhPNk1qRWQwNWp2bXM/view?usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-dbiVx_ayNn9aj58UtLbJdw

ltg 3 came out in hardback book form in 1990 .....
before that it was a high initiate only discourse series for several years

[john poo]

I cant access any of the google drive links DO you have it ona download/upload webpage that allows big files to be sent to/from you?

Thanks
John

On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 3:16:29 AM UTC-7, Henosis Sage wrote:

[john poo]

Sorr I did not see this message down below. I sent another one where if you had a webpage that allowed to upload/download big files that might work. I will look at these now thanks.

It is so fricken weird to say bt between the crystal uses on the third eye, rife machine, and reiki/reconnection/quantum touch/ and all the others I think we either surpassed paul or we truly are gods in rags(well torn LEvis to be precise)

[wernertrp]

Manche sehen auch mit drei Augen noch nicht genug.

[john poo]

I immediatley noticed the difference in both font and censoring. I wonder why HKlemp wanted to do that and if Gail has any more letter to these?

On Saturday, October 8, 2022 at 3:42:16 PM UTC-7, Henosis Sage wrote:

[Henosis Sage]

On Thursday, 27 October 2022 at 13:42:46 UTC+11, john poo wrote:
> I immediatley noticed the difference in both font and censoring. I wonder why HKlemp wanted to do that and if Gail has any more letter to these?

Unlikely Gail had any others (given what was said over the years here)

She had sold (and handed over to Darwin) all Paul's texts to Eckankar just a year before (July 1982) Darwin published his 'edited' LTG 3 book. Gail was out of the picture then, though still friends with Patti S and others.

I have no info (or guesses) why HK did what he did.

anyway, glad you managed to get the files ok take care.

[Henosis Sage]

On Thursday, 27 October 2022 at 17:20:51 UTC+11, Henosis Sage wrote:
> On Thursday, 27 October 2022 at 13:42:46 UTC+11, john poo wrote:
> > I immediatley noticed the difference in both font and censoring. I wonder why HKlemp wanted to do that and if Gail has any more letter to these?
> Unlikely Gail had any others (given what was said over the years here)
>
> She had sold (and handed over to Darwin) all Paul's texts to Eckankar just a year before (July 1982) Darwin published his 'edited' LTG 3 book. Gail was out of the picture then, though still friends with Patti S and others.
>
> I have no info (or guesses) why HK did what he did.
>

except PS

it was said they needed to take out some "bad black magic" stuff about how to kill people at a distance etc .... this doesn;t really stack up as far more than things like that were cut in HKs version. Whole letters were dropped entirely. Why? I don;t know.

Unfortunately I only ever obtained a few of the Darwins texts and not the entire book. Someone has many copies of it, even though HK had them pulped asap. anyway, take care.

[john poo]

On Friday, May 24, 2019 at 7:12:51 AM UTC-7, Etznab wrote:
> O.K. Well that was really helpful. It's better to look at this from more than one angle; and I really liked your angle about Bluth.
>
> Patti, Doug and others were biased (IMO) probably because they were implicit in allowing the problems (like weeds) to grow. I think they and others knew about the BS, but let it go. IOW the mess is still under the rug.

do you know what ever happen to prometheus973 and brightgoddess of the yahoo groups?

[john poo]

God this conversation is so interesting I can spen a day on it. Does gail still live in san diego and that would be cool if she talked about LTG3. I know thats wishful thinking.

[Henosis Sage]

I did see online (here?) that sharon (brightgoddess) had passed away a few years back now. Prometheus disappeared from his yahoo forum, I presume he too passed away, must be a decade ago now. RIP