Taulman 618 won't stick

[Andrew Jepson]

I've been experimenting with some Taulman 618 nylon, but unfortunately I haven't been able to get a print to stick to the bed long enough to make anything useful. I've been printing a 25mm calibration cube trying different combinations of nozzle temperatures and beds, but I may as well be printing onto teflon cause nothing will stick well. I've tried temperatures from 235 all the way to 280, heated and unheated beds, printing on glass with elmers glue (the only semi successful print I had) printing on sanded and smooth G10 from Ezra, and printing on painters tape. My first layer seems to go down quite well, but by the second or third layer, the corners are peeling up and then the nozzle starts pushing it around on the bed. I'm kinda stumped here as I've read numerous cases of people saying it sticks too well to G10 and they have problems getting the parts off, but rarely anything about it not sticking well enough. Any ideas as to what I should try next would be greatly appreciated

[Triffid Hunter]

bed temperature of ~55c with unsanded G10 works for me. May want to
add a brim of 3-5mm or so. 618 Nylon warps VERY strongly, and needs
quite significant bed adhesion to stay down!

I use a sharpened pallet knife for part removal.

[Dave]

I haven't gotten my nylon to stick to G10 yet, either.  It was recommended that I sand the G10 until fibers show, but I haven't tried that yet. 

My nylon prints were on long strips of blue tape with a raft of +20 mm.  And the raft started peeling up, too.  It was just big enough to last until the print was done.  Removing the raft is, well, hard.  Be careful. 

It can be done. 

Dave

[John D]

I'm using Garolite LE, and with both 618 and 645 it sticks almost too well.  I've not had super good luck with G10 - or at least what I think is G10.

[Andrew Jepson]

I sanded my G10 with 80 grit on my random orbit sander, but that didn't change adhesion much. John, that's interesting that garolite is working for you and G10 isn't. Am I correct in assuming that the G10 we're thinking of is the black composite that Ezra shipped with our machines?

[cambo...@hotmail.com]

maybe you guys are using the wrong garolite:

grade CE garolite: compared to grade XX garolite, grade CE offers higher impact strength. it's a cotton-cloth laminate with a phenolic resin binder.

grade G-9 garolite: this woven-glass fabric laminate has a melamine resin binder for superior strength. it retains its shape and size, plus is good for use in wet conditions. rated for flammability.

grade G-10/FR4 garolite: a glass-cloth laminate with epoxy resin binder, this material is the flame-retardant version of standard G-10 garolite. it offers excellent strength and low water absorption. rated for flammability.

grade LE garolite: similar to grade XX and CE garolite, grade LE is lightweight and strong. it offers lower water absorption than Grade CE so it can hold its shape better for tighter tolerances. it's a fine weave cotton fabric with a phenolic resin binder.

grade XX garolite: like all garolite, grade XX is lighter than metals but dense and strong. it's a paper-based laminate with a phenolic resin binder that absorbs less moisture than grade CE or LE Garolite. good for use as a template board or for gasketing and gears.

[Scott Turner]

I had trouble getting Nylon 618 to stick to the G10 that came with the Trinity One until I worked on it with steel wool.

 

Now it works fantastically well with 618, 645 and Diamond Age PLA. No brim required. I do however keep the temp down to around 230C and keep the stuff exquisitely dry. I've found that the Taulman Nylon warps badly  when it is not dry.

[Scott Turner]

About a quarter pound of Taulman 618 standing tall on the steel wool roughened to expose the cotton weave G10 from Trinity Labs. Temp was 230C, my hot bed is still fucked (as always: thanks for the shit customer service Ezra) so its room temp,  sliced with Kisslicer 1.1.0. No brim! Well stuck, no warpage. Exquisitely dry filament was used.

These are six ear bud holders that really appreciate the characteristics of the nylon 618.

On Jun 7, 2013, at 8:22, Scott Turner <scott.tu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I had trouble getting Nylon 618 to stick to the G10 that came with the Trinity One until I worked on it with steel wool.

 

Now it works fantastically well with 618, 645 and Diamond Age PLA. No brim required. I do however keep the temp down to around 230C and keep the stuff exquisitely dry. I've found that the Taulman Nylon warps badly  when it is not dry.

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[Andrew Jepson]

Hey Scott,

What's your setup for drying your filament? Mines been sitting in a ziploc with silica gel, but maybe I need a proper heated storage box to really dry it out.

[Scott Turner]

I use the Ziploc Big Bag - Large with an Eva-dry E-500. When USPS says my shipment will arrive the next day I plug the Eva-dry into an outlet. This warms it toasty warm as well as drying it out. When the Taulman box arrives I take the spools out of their bags and put them in the Ziploc on top of the toasty warm Eva-dry.

If you toss in a digital humidity gauge as well you can see when all the moisture has been absorbed. My meters bottom out at around 10 to 16.

Some folks have commented this wont dry the filament to the core of the roll by that point. My experience is I don't use the whole roll at once. I rotate rolls daily through the bag and let them dry out some more. That second roll has been in for an extra 24 hours. The third roll for 48 etc... I order six rolls at a time and have a nice rotation setup of very dry filament to use.

[Andrew Jepson]

I seem to have gotten the adhesion issues under control after using a coarser sandpaper to re-scuff my garolite le and using a wider brim.  What I haven't been able to tame is the issues with filled top surfaces and small features.
If you take a look at the pics in the link, you can see that the brim goes down really nicely, but when the printer comes back to infill, it leaves these nasty ridges and a very rough surface. I've calibrated my esteps, and I get nice looking results with ABS infill, so are there other settings I could tweak just for nylon? The torture test had some serious stringing issues too, and the holes are undersized with some little blobs.
I'm printing @ 240 with an unheated garolite bed, .3mm layers, 80mm/s and a 5mm retract.

https://plus.google.com/photos/110211862138180417929/albums/5889108361565128097?authkey=CLe3prfZ2sedLA

[Scott Turner]

Hi Andrew,

Taulman nylon prefers the tool paths created by KISSlicer 1.1.0. With that slicer I don't need brims.

Taulman nylon likes thin layers. I slice .2 or .25 at most.

Taulman nylon also likes 230C for all layers on my Mark V-B .4mm J-Head and that 230C is an accurate 230C eg if you calibrate your thermistor 230C should work for you too.

At 230C I've been getting 120 to 150 mmps for infill.

Taulman nylon needs to be dry to achieve the above. Water in the filament flashes to steam in the melt zone and screws up the quality of the prints. I recommend at least over night in a Ziploc Big Bag with a freshly dried out (and thus toasty warm to drive convection currents) Eva-Dry 500.

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[Greg L.]

I've never printed with 618, but one thing stands out in your post - a 5 mm retract? That's likely the highest retract I've ever heard of - usually people are down in the 0.3mm to 1.5mm range, I had thought. Are you sure you didn't mean 0.5mm?

On Friday, June 14, 2013 4:19:31 PM UTC-4, Andrew Jepson wrote:

... and a 5mm retract.

[Scott Turner]

Taulman nylon is slippery. Running 230C on a Mark V-B J-Head I haven't needed any extra retract using KISSlicer 1.1.0 but I did turn on its de-stringing and wipe post features to print that bed of parts.  I also use a filament diameter setting of 3.35mm.

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[Andrew Jepson]

According to taulman, they recommend a long retract to help with oozing, so I was just going with their recommended numbers. Even with that amount I still get some oozing, so I'm going to try lowering my temp like Scott has recommended. I've been drying the nylon filament in an old toaster oven at 100 degrees, which has helped a lot too.

I've installed Kisslicer, but haven't used it for any prints yet, as I'm not as familiar with how the settings work. Specifically I'm not sure where I compensate for my bed height, as my garolite is over 6mm thick, and I need a +3.4mm offset to avoid crashing the nozzle into the bed. I'm also not 100% on how to fine tune the extrusion volume. Scott, I'm curious why you're using a 3.35mm value for your filament. Is yours actually that diameter, or are you doing that to effectively reduce the volume of material extruded? Mine averages to 3.05mm.

[hellphish]

The filament is meant to be white, not burned orange. Might try temps between 230 and 235, with very very dry 618.

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[Dave]

On Saturday, June 15, 2013 12:28:25 PM UTC-5, Andrew Jepson wrote:

According to taulman, they recommend a long retract to help with oozing, so I was just going with their recommended numbers. Even with that amount I still get some oozing, so I'm going to try lowering my temp like Scott has recommended. I've been drying the nylon filament in an old toaster oven at 100 degrees, which has helped a lot too.

I haven't run a lot of nylon, but what I have run has been with zero retract.  Yes, none at all.  The theory goes that nylon will fall out of the nozzle no matter what, so your best bet is to not give it time to do so.  Set non-print moves as fast as you dare, and don't let the head sit still for the moment it takes to retract and re-prime.  Frankly, I've seen very little stringing, though I haven't done a thorough test of it. 

Something else to try.

I manually set Z0 for nylon prints.  I don't see a way around that which doesn't include a shifting limit switch trigger. 

Dave