TiddlySpace RFC

[chris...@gmail.com]

In the past couple of days TiddlySpace (on http://tiddlyspace.com/)
reached its 6000th user so now seems like an opportune time to request
some feedback from the various communities that use it and those that
have thought about it but don't yet.

I'm writing different versions of this message to different groups.
This, the first, is to the tiddlywiki group, I'll also write to the
TiddlyWeb and TiddlySpace groups[1] if time allows.

I'm writing here first because of those 6000 users, most of them are
using TiddlySpace as a place to host their content in TiddlyWikis.

For those who don't know TiddlySpace combines TiddlyWeb[2] and
TiddlyWiki to provide a flexible, multi-user and multi-domain hosting
service for tiddlers with system-wide search, public and private
storage, atom feeds, binary tiddlers and a slew of tools to make it
easy to create, curate and share your content.

Over the past year most of the development on TiddlySpace has been
focused in a few main areas:

* Stabilizing and optimizing the service for speed and concurrency.
* Enabling what are being called apps: Web applications on
TiddlySpace, using tiddlers, outside of TiddlyWiki.
* Enabling "real-time" information flows with tiddler information
flowing over websockets.

As is the case with most open source projects these priorities come
about as a result of who is doing the work and who is being the
squeaky wheel.

This message is a request for people to squeak and speak up about
what they want or need from TiddlySpace. Doing so will help to form
priorities and ensure that TiddlySpace serves all the people who use
it or want to use it. Any comments or propositions are encouraged
and desired.

If you don't have something narrative to contribute, then commenting
on any of the following (+1 or -1) propositions would also be useful,
along with any editorial remarks (such as how to accomplish the
proposition):

* Make the default TiddlyWiki presented by TiddlySpace be more like
empty.html with the option to easily add functionality. Or...

* Make the default TiddlyWiki be flexible and powerful with
TiddlySpace functionality with the option to easily be more like
empty.html.

* Provide more blessed themes and verticals and make them easier to
find.

* Accelerate progress on including TiddlyWiki5 in TiddlySpace.

* Intergrate TiddlySpace-wide search into TiddlyWiki.

* Enable a type of lazy loading by default in online TiddlyWikis while
ensuring that downloaded Tiddlywikis still operate effectively.

* Allow login and registration with github/facebook/google.

* Improve the documentation (if you +1 this one you are obliged to
editorialize on how).

* Expose greater admin functionality for manipulating bags and recipes.

* Make it easier to use tiddlers in apps outside of TiddlySpace.

* Change the frontpage of tiddlyspace.com so it is more inviting.

This is just a short list to get things started. I hope that people
will add their own. After there has been some discussion I'll
summarize the results and make a roadmap.

Thank you for your participation and help.

[1] http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlyweb
http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlyspace

[2] http://tiddlyweb.com/

--
Chris Dent http://burningchrome.com/
[...]

[Handoko Suwono]

Chris,

I am moving my tiddlywiki to tiddlyspace.

What I am thinking is that I still need to find an online help in the space where people can easily look and find it. Aside from my TW understanding. Perhaps in the same local space.

I don't know how to mingle with "other" spacers and some permissions to allow them to comment in one's space.

I think that's all for now.

Handoko -

[Måns]

Hi Chris

> For those who don't know TiddlySpace combines TiddlyWeb[2] and
> TiddlyWiki to provide a flexible, multi-user and multi-domain hosting
> service for tiddlers with system-wide search, public and private
> storage, atom feeds, binary tiddlers and a slew of tools to make it
> easy to create, curate and share your content.

> * Make the default TiddlyWiki presented by TiddlySpace be more like
>    empty.html with the option to easily add functionality. Or...

+1

> * Make the default TiddlyWiki be flexible and powerful with
>    TiddlySpace functionality with the option to easily be more like
>    empty.html.

+1

Explanation:
When we create a new space maybe we could have the option to choose
(include) a theme/space from a pull down menu showing a list of any
space with a SiteInfo tiddler tagged with: "theme"?? It might impress
anyone who already know TiddlySpot, where you have "only" six themes
to choose from, and inspire creative users to share/create new wiki
themes on TiddlySpace.

Add a link (checkout) which will open the chosen theme as a space in a
new browser tab.

> * Provide more blessed themes and verticals and make them easier to
>    find.

+1 (same idea as above mentioned)

> * Accelerate progress on including TiddlyWiki5 in TiddlySpace.

- I'm not sure what this implies?

> * Intergrate TiddlySpace-wide search into TiddlyWiki.

+1
It would be very cool to have direct access to tiddlers on tiddlyspace
from a local wiki via an integrated search... Even better if a tiddler
(search result) could be temporarely opened/imported directly into
your local copy.

> * Enable a type of lazy loading by default in online TiddlyWikis while
>    ensuring that downloaded Tiddlywikis still operate effectively.

+1

> * Allow login and registration with github/facebook/google.
>
> * Improve the documentation (if you +1 this one you are obliged to
>    editorialize on how).
>
> * Expose greater admin functionality for manipulating bags and recipes.

+1
I guess what I miss is some simple apps where I can administrate
binary files/tiddlers with all the commands that I know from other
similar services like:
My files - Upload files (mimetype examples (images, htmls, pdfs
etc...)) and a list of already uploaded files/tiddlers sorted in
groups of (binary)type A, B, C etc...

> * Make it easier to use tiddlers in apps outside of TiddlySpace.

+1
more TiddlyWiki macros and css should work/look right in "single
tiddler representations"... Eric's SnapshotPlugin seems to be able to
create html representations of single tiddlers or elements which look
exactly like the original tiddler in the wiki environment...
Maybe TS could have a similar option for single tiddlers: "Publish
single tiddler as html wikistyle" where macros like popups etc. would
work like they do in the wiki environment?!

> * Change the frontpage of tiddlyspace.com so it is more inviting.

+1
Links/menus pointing to ressources added by users (retrieval of links
to spaces where SiteInfo is tagged with sth - could be a simple
tagcloud )

> This is just a short list to get things started. I hope that people
> will add their own. After there has been some discussion I'll
> summarize the results and make a roadmap.

I need more time if you want to know how I experience using a full
tiddlyspace installation with only a very few users on
tiddlyspace.gir.dk...

All for now..

Cheers Måns Mårtensson

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, Handoko Suwono wrote:

> What I am thinking is that I still need to find an online help in the space
> where people can easily look and find it. Aside from my TW understanding.
> Perhaps in the same local space.

Creating effective documentation has proven to be less easy than
hoped. In large part this is a question of resources, both in terms of
available energy and available skills. For myself, I'm best able to
construct documention in response to direct inqueries.

> I don't know how to mingle with "other" spacers and some permissions to
> allow them to comment in one's space.

Thank you. This is a very important statement as it captures in a
short statement a clear gap: You know that something ought to be
possible, and want it to be but don't see the straight path to making
it possible.

For now you might have a look at:
http://docs.tiddlyspace.com/#%5B%5BGuide%20to%20Socialising%20on%20TiddlySpace%5D%5D

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2012, M�ns wrote:

> When we create a new space maybe we could have the option to choose
> (include) a theme/space from a pull down menu showing a list of any
> space with a SiteInfo tiddler tagged with: "theme"?? It might impress
> anyone who already know TiddlySpot, where you have "only" six themes
> to choose from, and inspire creative users to share/create new wiki
> themes on TiddlySpace.

Yes, this is something we've hoped to implement for quite some time: A
more interactive way of startup with different styles and
functionality.

>> * Accelerate progress on including TiddlyWiki5 in TiddlySpace.
>
> - I'm not sure what this implies?

Back here

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywikidev/BIRuexV0g-U/discussion

I asked the tiddlyweb and tiddlywikidev groups about interest in
developing a solution for intergrating tiddlywiki5 with tiddyweb, in
the form of a serializer or handler on the server, or http code in
tiddlywiki5. Other than a supportive comment from Jeremy, there was
zero response from the community, which suggests that no one is
interested in seeing TiddlyWeb and TiddlyWiki5 interoperate. I hope
that is not true.

So the "Accelerate" point above was another way of asking the same
question in a different context. Thus far the same suggestion stands:
people aren't that interested. I still hope that is not true.

>> * Intergrate TiddlySpace-wide search into TiddlyWiki.
> +1
> It would be very cool to have direct access to tiddlers on tiddlyspace
> from a local wiki via an integrated search... Even better if a tiddler
> (search result) could be temporarely opened/imported directly into
> your local copy.

Can you describe in a bit more detail how performing the search within
the tiddlywiki is more valuable than doing the search in, for example,
a different browser tab. I don't doubt that it is for some, but I'd
like to understand better how.

>> * Expose greater admin functionality for manipulating bags and recipes.
> +1
> I guess what I miss is some simple apps where I can administrate
> binary files/tiddlers with all the commands that I know from other
> similar services like:
> My files - Upload files (mimetype examples (images, htmls, pdfs
> etc...)) and a list of already uploaded files/tiddlers sorted in
> groups of (binary)type A, B, C etc...

So, is your interest here manipulating the contents of bags and
recipes (the tiddlers) of manipulating the bags and recipes themselves
(their policies and descriptions)?

>> * Make it easier to use tiddlers in apps outside of TiddlySpace.
> +1
> more TiddlyWiki macros and css should work/look right in "single
> tiddler representations"... Eric's SnapshotPlugin seems to be able to
> create html representations of single tiddlers or elements which look
> exactly like the original tiddler in the wiki environment...
> Maybe TS could have a similar option for single tiddlers: "Publish
> single tiddler as html wikistyle" where macros like popups etc. would
> work like they do in the wiki environment?!

The limitation here is in which macros are included in the twikifier
process. At the moment it only includes the default core macros plus
the TiddlySpaceLinkPlugin.

Others could be included, but they won't necessarily work.

I had held off on making further changes to twikifier because it was
going to get replaced by tw5ikifier but that stalled out due to
refactoring in TiddlyWiki5.

>> * Change the frontpage of tiddlyspace.com so it is more inviting.
> +1
> Links/menus pointing to ressources added by users (retrieval of links
> to spaces where SiteInfo is tagged with sth - could be a simple
> tagcloud )

Are you suggesting that the frontpage should be more revealing about
the interesting stuff that is already present on the server, so that
people can be encouraged by what they see?

Thanks for your input.

[Måns]

Hi Chris

Thanks for your response.
Sorry that it's taking me so long time to answer - there are just so
many things going on at the job atm...
I have to keep up with everything..


>* Adapt a storage layer in the TiddlyWiki5 code that talks the
> Tiddlyweb http API, such that any TiddlyWiki5 can have or add a
> story which connects to a bag or recipe on a TiddlyWeb server.

Does it mean that you would be able to run a TW locally (node.js) and
it could behave as if it was hosted on a tiddlyspace domain?
Inclusion of a space would mean that you add/load public tiddlers from
spaces you don't own, and if you're logged in, and therefore have
access to private tiddlers in spaces you are a member of - you can
load these too?
If this is the idea it would give users on a tiddlyspace domain access
to two levels of private tiddlers - one on the tiddlyspace and yet
another, which is run in a TW locally on their pc's...
Sounds intriguing - and it might be very usefull in such conditions
where you are not allowed to move or copy data from your network to
any type of external data storage.

>* Write a serialization for TiddlyWeb, very similar to the one in the
> tiddlywebwiki package, which creates and presents a TiddlyWiki5 file
> that gets filled in with tiddlers.

+1

>* Write a handler for TiddlyWeb that outputs an empty TiddlyWiki5
> primed (by query string or code injection) to load a bag or recipe.

+1

> >> * Intergrate TiddlySpace-wide search into TiddlyWiki.
> > +1
> > It would be very cool to have direct access to tiddlers on tiddlyspace
> > from a local wiki via an integrated search... Even better if a tiddler
> > (search result) could be temporarely opened/imported directly into
> > your local copy.
>
> Can you describe in a bit more detail how performing the search within
> the tiddlywiki is more valuable than doing the search in, for example,
> a different browser tab. I don't doubt that it is for some, but I'd
> like to understand better how.

It's the idea of being able to load tiddlers from a search result,
directly into your TW, which makes all the difference...

> >> * Expose greater admin functionality for manipulating bags and recipes.
> > +1
> > I guess what I miss is some simple apps where I can administrate
> > binary files/tiddlers with all the commands that I know from other
> > similar services like:
> > My files - Upload files (mimetype examples (images, htmls, pdfs
> > etc...)) and a list of already uploaded files/tiddlers sorted in
> > groups of (binary)type A, B, C etc...
>
> So, is your interest here manipulating the contents of bags and
> recipes (the tiddlers) of manipulating the bags and recipes themselves
> (their policies and descriptions)?

The tiddlers. (I believe..)
Binary type is recorded and handled ("rendering-wise" - don't know if
this is even a word?) by TiddlyWeb for individual tiddlers - it would
be very nice if it was easy to create lists based on type.

I guess Tweb could have a simple ftp-type style app, where you could
upload/download binary files - and some people would just use the bags
for convenient file-storage...
another app might show images as thumbnails or a slideshow - a third
app might be an audio playlist autogenerated from audio-files/tiddlers
etc etc ...

>
> >> * Change the frontpage of tiddlyspace.com so it is more inviting.
> > +1
> > Links/menus pointing to ressources added by users (retrieval of links
> > to spaces where SiteInfo is tagged with sth - could be a simple
> > tagcloud )
>
> Are you suggesting that the frontpage should be more revealing about
> the interesting stuff that is already present on the server, so that
> people can be encouraged by what they see?

Yep - Or alternatively some of the icons, on the frontpage, could link
to spaces which collect lists/links of/to spaces which enroll
themselves, simply by tagging SiteInfo with some defined tag..

I do this in my danish TS (http://tiddlyspace.gir.dk/):
http://samlinger.tiddlyspace.gir.dk/ (samlinger = collections in
danish) and I write:

"Hvis du vil publicere en samling her skal du oprette en tiddler
kaldet SiteInfo og tagge den med samling" which means:

"If you want to publish a collection here, all you have to do is to
create a tiddler SiteInfo, and tag it with collection.."

In every "collection space" I've setup, the collection list is made in
the same manner - and the procedure is the same:

"If you want to publish a XXX here, all you have to do is to create a
tiddler SiteInfo, and tag it with XXX.."

This way it gets very easy for users to contribute/add/remove material
from/to "official lists".


Cheers Måns Mårtensson

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Sat, 3 Nov 2012, M�ns wrote:

> Sorry that it's taking me so long time to answer - there are just so
> many things going on at the job atm...
> I have to keep up with everything..

No problem, is nice to keep the conversation going. A nice thing
about email is that gaps in time don't matter.

>> * Adapt a storage layer in the TiddlyWiki5 code that talks the
>> Tiddlyweb http API, such that any TiddlyWiki5 can have or add a
>> story which connects to a bag or recipe on a TiddlyWeb server.
>
> Does it mean that you would be able to run a TW locally (node.js) and
> it could behave as if it was hosted on a tiddlyspace domain?

More the opposite. You could run a TW locally and it could have
content which is hosted in the tiddlyweb domain. Manipulating
content in that (sub-)story would GET and PUT against a bag or recipe
on the tiddlyweb server.

I don't actually know what the details would be. I was mostly spouting
a possible idea that someone with greater knowledge of the guts of
TiddlyWiki5 could comment upon.

>> * Write a serialization for TiddlyWeb, very similar to the one in the
>> tiddlywebwiki package, which creates and presents a TiddlyWiki5 file
>> that gets filled in with tiddlers.
>
> +1

I'd like to see _someone_ do this, and for that someone to _not be
me_. While I'm convinced that TiddlyWiki5+TiddlyWeb will be rather
interesting, it's not an itch I have, and it is critical, for the
health of the multiple projects involved, that the community be active
in the creation of features.

>> * Write a handler for TiddlyWeb that outputs an empty TiddlyWiki5
>> primed (by query string or code injection) to load a bag or recipe.
>
> +1

This would be a bit like: http://apps.tiddlyspace.com/_tiddlywiki
but with tiddlywiki5 instad of 2.x.

>> Can you describe in a bit more detail how performing the search within
>> the tiddlywiki is more valuable than doing the search in, for example,
>> a different browser tab. I don't doubt that it is for some, but I'd
>> like to understand better how.
>
> It's the idea of being able to load tiddlers from a search result,
> directly into your TW, which makes all the difference...

What do you do with them once they are in your TW?

>> Are you suggesting that the frontpage should be more revealing about
>> the interesting stuff that is already present on the server, so that
>> people can be encouraged by what they see?
>
> Yep - Or alternatively some of the icons, on the frontpage, could link
> to spaces which collect lists/links of/to spaces which enroll
> themselves, simply by tagging SiteInfo with some defined tag..

That's a good idea. We've bandied around ideas like this in the past
but never quite followed through, in large part because of this whole
"what is this stuff for" question that lingers plus distribution of
resources and time.

[Måns]

Hi Chris

> > It's the idea of being able to load tiddlers from a search result,
> > directly into your TW, which makes all the difference...
>
> What do you do with them once they are in your TW?

I guess I would expect tiddlers loaded from a search result should be
there in a temporary state - just for viewing..
When loading tiddlers from external sources was possible, Eric made
temporarytiddlersplugin: http://tiddlytools.com/#TemporaryTiddlersPlugin
..
An option to clone or save loaded tiddlers upon request, should be
available - I think..

Cheers Måns Mårtensson

[twgrp]

Glad I passed by and saw this! Great you're asking Chris!

1) I suggest a commenting feature where non-registered visitors can comment on tiddlers/spaces. Why? And isn't this more of a plugin issue? Well, it may be a plugin issue, but it is the single most powerful thing I can think of to attract people to TS-sites. The current "social features" in TS assume you're designing your spaces for fellow tiddlyspacemen, but at least my spaces are targeted at, well, regular folks. Adding a TW/TS built commenting feature would allow the spontaneous visitor to interact in a whole new way and it would make TS a lot more powerful.

Ok, that said, here are some perhaps more conventional opinions:

2) I wish there was a general focus on "mixing, merging, copying, slicing and dicing" between spaces:
a) Currently we can include a space into the current one. I wish we could "push" spaces
b) ...and that we could include individual tiddlers. Especially with your tiddler centered focus (which I also find exciting!) I think it would be great if we could simply include a single tiddler, or at least its contents. Maybe something like <<tiddler tiddlername@space>> ? It is possible, today, to use iframes and the ".txt" and ".html" formats but... ugly.
c) and finally also pushing individual tiddlers. Once again, maybe it's "a plugin thing" but imagine visiting a space and seeing some interesting tiddler only to "push" it into some space of yours via some command right there. Maybe a default toolbar command for this could be possible as long as all spaces involved are on TS. I'm uncertain if such a pushed tiddler means it actually refers back to the original tiddler or if it is a local copy.

With my naive non-programming eyes, all of the above seems to be about interconnecting subsets of spaces and I'm hoping for some general solution. Some of what you guys are discussing in this thread, such as integrated searches and publishing individual tiddlers sounds related. With the tiddler centered perspective you advocate, Chris, I think these ideas are already up on the table, no?

3) I tried, and noted others trying, to use mGSD on TS but it doesn't work. I wish it did.

4) Regarding your observation that few/none seem to have opinions on the integration of TW5 in TS - well, most of us hardly know what TW5 is yet. So FWIW: I'm assuming TW5 will be great and gradually take over from classic TW, so of course I'd appreciate if TS integrates this somehow :-)

Thank you Chris!

<:-)

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Tue, 6 Nov 2012, twgrp wrote:

> Glad I passed by and saw this! Great you're asking Chris!

Thanks for joining in. Once there are a few more response I'll make a
summary page.

Comments within...

> 1) I suggest a commenting feature where *non-registered* visitors can

> comment on tiddlers/spaces. Why? And isn't this more of a plugin issue?
> Well, it may be a plugin issue, but it is the single most powerful thing I
> can think of to attract people to TS-sites. The current "social features"
> in TS assume you're designing your spaces for fellow tiddlyspacemen, but at
> least my spaces are targeted at, well, regular folks. Adding a TW/TS built
> commenting feature would allow the spontaneous visitor to interact in a
> whole new way and it would make TS a lot more powerful.

There continue to be issues with how best to manage the potential for
spam. Those issues have stalled us out from doing anything other than
the (relatively spam proof) "reply to this tiddler" mechanism. It
probably makes sense to try a different approach: Rather than assuming
spam will happen or be hard to manage, just see what happens and deal
with issues when they come up.

There are some security concerns of course. We don't want a random
visitor to be able to make a systemConfig tagged tiddler. But these
can probably be overcome with what are called validators (server-side
filters that ensure that content doesn't have BadStuff™).

My preference would be for some kind of per-space bag that is writable
by anyone (create only). Such a thing could be used by other
applications than just TiddlyWiki.

For the TiddlyWiki use case a plugin would need to be created that
allows things to be created in that bag.

> Ok, that said, here are some perhaps more conventional opinions:
>
> 2) I wish there was a general focus on "mixing, merging, copying, slicing
> and dicing" between spaces:

This is, of course, the entire purpose of the "space" concept but the
tools are not (yet) elegant.

> a) Currently we can include a space into the current one. I wish we could
> "push" spaces

I'm not sure what you mean by "push". Do you mean while looking at
space X you can cause space Y to include it (rather than needing to go
to space Y and add X)?

> b) ...and that we could include individual tiddlers. Especially with your
> tiddler centered focus (which I also find exciting!) I think it would be
> great if we could simply include a single tiddler, or at least its
> contents. Maybe something like <<tiddler tiddlername@space>> ? It is
> possible, today, to use iframes and the ".txt" and ".html" formats but...
> ugly.

There is support for interspace tiddler transclusion in three different ways:

* Within TiddlyWikis using a plugin from the following space:
http://following.tiddlyspace.com/TiddlySpaceIntraSpaceInclusion

* In the html representation when using the tiddlywikitext format

* In the html representation when using the Markdown format (the
syntax there is different, based on examples in other markdown
services: {{tiddler title}}@space

> c) and finally also *pushing *individual tiddlers. Once again, maybe it's

> "a plugin thing" but imagine visiting a space and seeing some interesting
> tiddler only to "push" it into some space of yours via some command right
> there. Maybe a default toolbar command for this could be possible as long
> as all spaces involved are on TS. I'm uncertain if such a pushed tiddler
> means it actually refers back to the original tiddler or if it is a local
> copy.

You might have a look at http://flicktiddler.tiddlyspace.com to if
that's the kind of thing you mean.

There are rather weird browser hurdles to overcome to copy around
content when the target space is the one that is not currently
being viewed. The usual solutions involve iframes (this is how the
@reply functionality works).

> With my naive non-programming eyes, all of the above seems to be about
> interconnecting subsets of spaces and I'm hoping for some general solution.

The space concept in TiddlySpace makes some of this stuff harder than it
would be in a generic TiddlyWeb setup. TiddlySpace gives you the
benefit of easier handling of the basics, but then makes the more
complex stuff (like dynamic recipes with filters, which is what would
be necessary for a general solution for interconnecting subsets of spaces)
harder. A main challenge is coming up with a feasible UI.

> Some of what you guys are discussing in this thread, such as integrated
> searches and publishing individual tiddlers sounds related. With the
> tiddler centered perspective you advocate, Chris, I think these ideas are
> already up on the table, no?

The main idea with the tiddler centered perspective is that the
tiddler be the primary point of access and entry and "apps" like
TiddlyWiki become one (of several) tools for manipulating tiddler
collections (including presenting them as a "story").

> 3) I tried, and noted others trying, to use mGSD on TS but it doesn't work.
> I wish it did.

I seem to be able to get it to work. Here's what I did:

* Got an empty mgsd.html
* Created a new space (@mgsdt1)
* Used the import backstage to import all the mgsd.html tiddlers
* Used the /_space app to remove the system-* includes
* Reloaded the tiddlywiki

This resulted in an apparently working mgsd, with the caveat that
saving needed to be triggered by clicking save changes. Automatic
saving was not on.

I then tried to make it so it was possible to create a new space that
used @mgsdt1 as a source space for turning the new space (@mgsd2) into
an mgsd space. I had to remove the system-* includes in that one too.

However it did not work because settings tiddlers like MgtdSettings
come from the @mgsd1 and when the @mgsd2 space want to update those
settings things go a bit wrong with permissions problems: An existing
tiddler is always saved back to its original location, unless plugin
code gets in the way to do a clone of some kind.

So, in order to get mgsd to work on tiddlyspace in an effective way
(one that doesn't require duplicating the plugin code all over the
place) a newly minted space that includes the mgsd stuff would need a
plugin to duplicate the various config and data starting point
tiddlers into the current space.

I suspect that someone (Simon?) could quite quickly cook up that
plugin. I, not knowing the guts of mgsd, don't really know which parts
would need adjustment.

However, I don't think there are large technical roadblocks to making
it happen.

I suspect that recent changes in the tiddlywiki core (related to
saving and merging defaultCustomFields) have improved the situation
here. It was probably a good deal worse a few months ago.

Hope this provides some insights.

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, chris...@gmail.com wrote:

> This is just a short list to get things started. I hope that people
> will add their own. After there has been some discussion I'll
> summarize the results and make a roadmap.

This is now in place at http://tsroadmap.tiddlyspace.com

I hope it captures the highlights of what has been discussed in
these threads (and elsewhere). If you feel something is missing or
wrong, please shout out.

[dickon]

I think that Tiddlyspace should congratulate itself on achieving 6000 users with really no marketing at all.

What next?

First, selfishly, don't do anything that will break the stuff that is already there - the AMBIT project now have over 30 mental health teams from all over the UK and possibly teams from beyond the UK (we certainly get plenty of hits from all over the world) trained in, and using and adapting their own local versions of the http://ambit.tiddlyspace.com space (see http://tiddlymanuals.tiddlyspace.com for more details) and that adds up to a lot of workers who really like what this does... and to an extent rely on it to guide their practice and document their own innovation...

Second, get clearer about a few core things that you think people can do with TiddlySpace - what distinguishes it from other places in the web? 

Third ask non-programmers what they think/want/like... 

• What got me interested (as a non-techie) in tiddlywiki first was the ease with which I found I could write a fairly complex website that used links and tags to organise pages of information; it was the "non-linear" style of writing that fired me up.  
• Then I liked the sense that it could function as a self-contained document, that had "edges" - ie that its wiki-ness was not a kind of "come and graffiti on my wall" free-for-all, but there could be some ownership of the document as a whole.
• Then, with the advent of tiddlySpace, it was the inclusion idea that seemed intrinsically beautiful, this is what allows my tiddlymanuals to have multiple layers of ownership, so that locally-derived improvements/developments in local versions (that include our AMBIT core) can gradually be "drawn down" into the core to be shared more widely.  This allows some hierarchical editorial control, but without crushing the opportunity to make multiple zany newer versions of/improvements on our "first shot" at writing a "way of working with seriously complex vulnerable youth" - it is very close to what Jean Lave and Etienne Wenger speak of as a "Community of Practice" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_practice)

I am using TS in quite a specific way, but it seems to me that other bodies of work could be presented and developed in similar ways (and they probably are - I don't spend enough time looking at the ways other people are using TS)... 

Conference?: This leads me to suggest that one way forward would be to think about that old fashioned idea of getting people together to share how they are using TS... I am not so interested in the technical development (though am in awe of you who do it!) but I would like to hear narratives of how other people are using their spaces and the various things that this-being-TS (rather than some other blogging space) allows them to do this.  I suppose I would suggest a small conference - get some people together who can talk about how they are using TS - why they are using TS and not something else out there.  I find keeping up with the Google discussion groups quite hard (I really don't have a lot of spare time on my hands and the volume of conversation is daunting) so listening to edited highlights of people explaining their work would be a lot easier.  Invite You tube videos (one of my poor attempts is here: http://ambit.tiddlyspace.com/#%5B%5BVideo%20tour%20of%20the%20AMBIT%20manual%5D%5D)

Featured Spaces: I have looked at the "featured Spaces" (http://featured.tiddlyspace.com/#%5B%5BRecently%20Featured%5D%5D) but often get a bit lost in their CONTENT, without working out quite how they are using the FUNCTIONALITY of TS to make their spaces do what they want them to do.  Its is helpful to have someone explain the WHY and the HOW of what they are doing with their site.  I think you could look hard at the Featured Spaces space, and revamp it:

• a short questionnaire to people who want their spaces featured - the "admission fee" for being featured is that you have to flesh out user-friendly explanations -
• Better still, video explanations that would show not just the content, but also explain the generalisability of of how you are using TS...
• Then you'd need to group/tag all the featured spaces in ways that would help interested enquirers home in on different functional applications, so they could zoom in on stuff that is doing stuff similar to what they want to do... 
• at the moment is is an overwhelming list and primarily focused on the amazingly rich array of CONTENT in spaces, rather than on how the developers of these spaces are using TS.  Result is that I don't know where to start (too long to start at the beginning of the list!)
  

If I was going to make a suggestion to bring in non-techie users who want to use TS to do something unrelated to the development of TS, it would all be stuff about the interface - things that scare users off are almost always anything that looks like coding:

• Rich text editors in Tiddlers
• Incredibly easy embedding of pictures/videos/soundclouds/iFrames that doesn't need any coding at all
• More themes for specific functions that are off the shelf, but which include instructions for how to make modifications
• In general (an old chestnut I know) I suggest finding a budget to pay someone to write some really good user-friendly documentation (I have tried to write my own for the Tiddlymanuals - http://ambit.tiddlyspace.com/#%5B%5BUsing%20the%20Manual%5D%5D)

I am trying to interest my kids in learning basic TW level coding and have helped them make a website for their band (http://fromthewoods.tiddlyspace.com) and it is interesting (and I suspect instructive) how much these kinds of things (anything that looks like indecipherable code) trigger a kind of fearful freeze of their ordinarily perfectly bright minds... I am working to help them overcome this (!) but if TS is to gain wider usership you probably need to grapple with that.

Incredible resource, incredible work from all of you who understand the under-the-hood workings, incredibly grateful for the creativity and hard graft that has got us this far.  Thank you.

Dickon

[Dickon Bevington]

this roadmap is great.

Suggest add stuff on the Featured Spaces as per my post to your initial request.

Dickon

[chris...@gmail.com]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012, dickon wrote:

> I think that Tiddlyspace should congratulate itself on achieving 6000 users
> with really no marketing at all.

Thanks for the long and thoughtful response. I'll add some bits to the
roadmap spaces. Some comments below for sake of conversation...

> First, selfishly, *don't do anything that will break the stuff that is
> already there* - the AMBIT project now have over 30 mental health teams

Yeah, we intend to keep the core tiddlywiki properly functional
throughout whatever changes are made. In fact given sufficient resources
the hope is to make the tiddlywiki functionality better, overcoming
some of the browser based limitations that are hurting file-based
tiddlywiki's value proposition.

That "sufficient resources" bit is rather key, however.

> Second, *get clearer about a few core things that you think people can do
> with TiddlySpace* - what distinguishes it from other places in the web?

Bizarre question, but would you, as a trained inquisitor have any
interest in helping to tease that out? Most of our conversations about
such things tend to spiral into confusion, too much abstraction or
even despair.

> Third* ask non-programmers what they think/want/like.*..

A big reason for the somewhat focus on dev-oriented people is because
the projects need more technical contributions in order to thrive.
We don't lack for ideas or plans. What we lack is consistent energy to
apply them. So the hope is that if we can generate some external
code contributions some of the gaps can be buttressed if not filled.

But that, of course, is just one course of action and many sources of
input need to be consulted.

> - What got me interested (as a non-techie) in tiddlywiki first was the

> ease with which I found I could write a fairly complex website that used

> links and tags to organise pages of information; it was the "*non-linear*"

> style of writing that fired me up.

There are seeds of interest within BT for re-implementing TiddlyDocs
style functionality with tiddlers but without tiddlywiki. This would
provide some more functionality for hypertext authoring if it happens.

But yes, it fires me up too. I've seen two styles of non-linearity:

* Write in long form and then decompose to chunks (the extraclusion
style) that can be reused.
* Write in chunks and the compose to longer forms (the transclusion
and "story" style).

I _think_ those may be the Dentist and Rustonian styles, if we want to
use tiddly personality to describe it.


> - Then, with the advent of tiddlySpace, it was the* inclusion* idea that
> seemed intrinsically beautiful,

Yes. AMBIT has done a great job using that feature presumably because
it was in the know as well as along for the early ride. Casual
visitors don't get a very good introduction, which is unfortunate.

> *Conference?:* This leads me to suggest that one way forward would be to

> think about that old fashioned idea of getting people together to share how
> they are using TS...

This is a good idea. Ideally I'd hope that something like this would
be pushed by the community rather than the "core" (whatever that is).
There's two reasons for that:

* resourcing issues
* the community doing it would ensure it was more what it needs to be

I and/or Osmosoft could certainly help to orchestrate something
(provide space for example).

> *Featured Spaces: *I have looked at the "featured

Good ideas. I'll summarize to @tsroadmap.

> - In general (an old chestnut I know) I suggest finding a budget to pay

> someone to write some really good user-friendly documentation (I have tried
> to write my own for the Tiddlymanuals

Saying "needing documentation is an old chestnut" is itself become
quite an old chestnut.

> Incredible resource, incredible work from all of you who understand the
> under-the-hood workings, incredibly grateful for the creativity and hard
> graft that has got us this far. Thank you.

Thank you for doing something meaningful with it.

[dickon]

Well, I don't have a load of time spare, but I would be happy to try to write some posts to this group to see if we can discern themes that users of TiddlySpace are hooking into.  My approach would be to be fairly radically non-technical in terms of programming, but to to be very focused on FUNCTION: asking about what peoples' INTENTIONS are in the way they are (or would see themselves in the future) using TS.

Dickon

[Alex Hough]

Hi Dickon and Chris

Its clear that the has been a good fit between ambit and tiddlyspace.
Its an award winning success.

I think that there could be some transfer of knowledge between the
contexts AMBIT, Tiddlyspace and the tiddlyWiki community. A possible
way forward could be to harvest the learning by developing a Community
of Practice at a higher level of abstraction : of sociological /
anthropological aspects of technology design, open source ideas,
psychology, mental health techniques and its implications for teamwork
and building.

In other words port Mentalizing with TiddlySpace to build a
methodology for organisations to design their working methods. A
"plugin" for an organisation - not only mental health organisations.


== Funding and Conferences

1) Is there anyone writing about Ambit or Tiddlyspace as part of some
research into organisational behavior? An interested person might be
able to get a proposal together to study the reasons for success and
get funded.

A year or so I met with an innovation researcher (military aircraft)
to ask him about researching innovation in TiddlyLand. TiddlyWiki in
its own right was not big enough The added dimension of mental health
might make research worth while. Might an org like NESTA be interested
in funding? I am interested in exploring the ways in which such
funding could be gained. I worked on a project trying to promote
creativity and in a mental health trust a few years ago, an approach
to technology developed though use in mental health contexts may be
appealing to such organisations.


Tiddly conference -- or a poster / paper at some other conference --
could be a planned outcome of the research - "action research",
"research as practice" are some phrases I have come across.

2) Could funding be raised or a marketing strategy delevloped to
deliver courses to organisations in how to mentalize while working
with each other and IT - while using TiddlySpace.

3) Community of Practice.
A guy from NASA suggested "TiddlyWiki group and its related groups
TiddlyDev etc, constitute a quasi professional "community of practice"
" [1] it a few years ago. Dickon mentions it in this thread .... must
be a good idea .... right?


Alex
[1] https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/mXaXqvcbxFA/LjbhT_bbvd4J

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/-/_N_L62K4K_AJ.
>
> To post to this group, send email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki?hl=en.