Racing Sucks

[iamkeith]

Thought many of you fellow un-racers might appreciate this  as much as I do:

http://surlybikes.com/blog/post/racing_sucks

[pb]

Nah, it's pretty much a fail.  The hoped-for side-effect did not occur.

:-)

~pb

(Cat II, 1977-1987)

[Pondero]

It is an interesting (to me) contrast between Rivendell's "Unracer" and Surly's "Racing Sucks". 

[Mike Schiller]

not surprising they  would do a patch like this... their bikes suck for racing.  I like the competitive aspects of cycling as well as the non-competitive ones.Just not those fruit bowl jerseys.

~mike

[Allan in Portland]

Until I read the Surly-guy's thought on the patch, I thought it was supposed to be an ironic joke, which it still kind of is. I'm thinking of the Paris-Roubaix quote I saw the other day from some racer after being forced to drop-out, "It's bollacks! ... I'll be back."

And it is a telling contrast between Grant and Surly. Maybe it's a generational thing.

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 7:36:41 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:

[Matthew J]

'Ceptin the 100 meter dash, racing of any sort bores me to tears.  But I have no desire to annoy those who do like it.  Long as they don't try and convince me to join them, we're fine.

[Ron Mc]

Just Ride and Unracer are accurate - even philosophical - Racing sucks is hyperbole and offensive.  

[Steve Palincsar]

--

Surly does, after all, mean bad-tempered and unfriendly, a mood echoed by the font used in the Surly downtube logo.  Contrast that with Rivendell's logo fonts.

[Bill Lindsay]

I like the photo of the guy racing on a Big Dummy.  That freaking rocks.  It makes me anticipate the smile I will smile when I see somebody winning a local 'cross race wearing a "racing sucks" patch.  That also will be cool.  

Racing is awesome, and so is unracing.  Wearing patches you want to wear is also awesome.  

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 7:36:41 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:

[iamkeith]

I guess I took it as pretty tounge-in-cheek.  Spending as much time reading forums as I do, that are all way less civil than this one, I've probably forgotten how to be offended - though I can see how many would take it that way.  It's DEFINITELY generational, however - which, though I didn't say it, is what I thought was so interesting about it.  

I've always felt that Surly could never have even existed had it not been for Rivendell.   When they launched, the concept of a company focusing on building skinny-tubed, steel bikes with 1" headsets,  provisions for racks, and room for fat tires and fenders was pretty "out there" to most mainstream consumers.   Yet, for all this, they've thrived.    And, partly, on the tails of bikes like the Long Haul Trucker which was a direct copy of the All Rounder.   Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it makes it more ironic that they produced this patch so shortly after Riv quoined and started marketing the whole "Un-Racer" thing.

What I find interesting though, is how two companies can be so eerlily similar - building no-nonsense bikes that work, are repairable, aren't going to go out of style, and don't require the newest ever-changing components - yet have such different marketplace personas.  Even though BOTH companies are actually developing thought-provoking and useful products (together, arguably changing the face of modern bike design more than all other companies combined), ONE of those companies is often considered "retro-grouchy" while the other is considered "hip."

Clearly it pays to be "offensive" on some level, depending on who your market is.  I just like anything that reminds people not to take themselves too seriously. ;-)

[Ryan]

Well said

[Ron Mc]

there is just enough divisiveness being marketed in the images we're sold, it would be better to raise the commonalities rather than the differences

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:07:26 PM UTC-6, iamkeith wrote:

[Deacon Patrick]

Divisiveness sucks! Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Alex Zeibot]

Ron,

I agree with you….  It is the Mandela's philosophy; collectivism tends to prevail by standing up for a common goal.

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[hsmitham]

What Allen said it's "Generational"...but after reading Mr. Blanstons Bludgeon, excuse me Blog I thought what's the point? Duh marketing...hey I like what Surly does but this is just a ploy to sell bikes it's called "Branding" and using psychology understood and promulgated by Mr. Freud and implemented by Madison Ave for ever. And yes Rivendell uses "Unracer" to the same means they just do it nicer. What I find amusing about Surly is that they use anger against the racer establishment but also promote racing on a Surly in the same breath now that's frigging smart. Me personally I won't be buying this patch anytime soon really don't need to piss off anymore people on the road, now if there was a "Cars Suck" patch I might be coerced to wear that uhmmmm maybe not I want to live to ride another day. 

~Hugh "Unracer" Smitham    

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 7:36:41 AM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

It's probably best to take the Racing Sucks patch as tongue-in-cheek. If you're offended by it, chalk it up to seasonal blues.

On the surface, Rivendell and Surly are on the same team, promoting smartly-designed steel bikes in a world where smartly-designed steel bikes aren't always popular. Both have brought some good ideas and products to the table. Both have a persona that reflect the personalities who run the respective companies. RBW plays the wholesome country bumpkin persona (with a generous helping of evocative nostalgia), while Surly plays up to the irreverent beer drinker but brilliant engineer persona. I've met Grant and I'm on friendly terms with several Surly characters. All good people. I bet they agree a lot more than they disagree, about bikes anyway. I've always found it humorous but weird that so many RBW devotees feel that there is a rivalry or semi-bitter philosophical divide between the two companies. It comes up again and again on this forum.

[Ron Mc]

no offense, Jim, this about a stupid patch.  

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Surly sometimes sends me little goodie boxes. The last one included various doodads and some calendars and a sticker that said "bongs, farts, and chainsaws". Maybe that is Surly's answer to Bike, book, and hatchet?

[Bill Lindsay]

" I've always found it humorous but weird that so many RBW devotees feel that there is a rivalry or semi-bitter philosophical divide between the two companies. It comes up again and again on this forum."

So many?  I can't name one.  

Again and again?  I can't name once.  

I don't think Riv and Surly are rivals.  Who thinks that?

Bill who-is-contemplating-a-steamroller-build-around-700x38s Lindsay

[James Warren]

I certainly don't read every post on this forum, but I haven't detected that posters feel there is a semi-bitter philosophical divide very often.

And changing the subject a bit, I've always detected appreciation of Surly from Riv people. Like this:

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/staff13.htm

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jimcw...@earthlink.net

- 700x55

[James Warren]

And don't forget, when Pugsley was new, it was nicely reviewed in the Rivendell Reader.

[Christopher Chen]

Man now I want to try riding that Panasonic "Rodeo".

--
"I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah

[ascpgh]

For me, bike racing was not the thing in which to compete. I did my due diligence in my competitive discipline, I know the sacrifices, I can share and relate with others about the depravities we have in common. Bike racers know nothing of the cycling I undertake nor are they prepared to follow me as I am not them.

Cycling had always been my refuge from the all-in necessity of competition as I had been trained for it. Then the sign-sprint toads started showing up on my mountain bike rides and I had to veer into more odd cycling pursuits than they were interested. Anyone who knows the rearrangement one's life must undertake in order to truly be competitive in their personal pursuit knows well enough that anything below that level is a joke and a situation begging for someone to get hurt. I just would like to ride my bike, be it my Rivendell or my Surly; font on the down tube independent.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Ron Mc]

here's what I like about Just Ride.  It describes that racing is not the end to the means.  That the means count for themselves.  I'll never be able to forget the sight of a 300+-lb guy in lycra torturing himself over a long threadless stem - the effort was just maintaining the position - he was going very slow on flat land.  He looked up longingly as I pedaled the other way, moving quickly, mostly upright in my moustache cockpit and baggy pants.  He was a very round peg in a divaricate hole.  I really hope he sticks with the riding, but somebody sold him something that they would want to ride themselves and thought he should want the same.  This may be an actual case of racing sucks, and I guess if the guys buying and selling bicycles get it, then it may accomplish something positive.  Obviously Surly, along with every other steel frame maker, is building something that we can relate to, if not aspire to.   Unracer - I think it's a weird word, and it's not one I'm going to wear on my togs or bike luggage, but I understand it.  A racing sucks patch?  I don't see a place for it other than offending your racing buddies, just as the author states as its purpose - I don't have a place for that.  

[Montclair BobbyB]

Like em or not, Surly is puttin it out there... I appreciate their courage to be different.

[sameness]

I'm guessing "Unless You're Talking About Fat Bike Races, All of Which We Happily Sponsor Since We Sell Those Kinds of Bikes" didn't fit on the patch?

Jeff Hagedorn

Warragul, VIC Australia

[Bertin753]

If we are going to be collectivists, I want your Atlantis.

Patrick Moore

iPhone

[Scott G.]

On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 9:32:39 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

If we are going to be collectivists, I want your Atlantis.

Patrick Moore

The International Wheelman of the World ?

Wobblie Bicyclists, it does make a certain sense.

[Jeremy Till]

I agree that Surly took a page from Riv's book in the Long Haul Trucker, and that has a lot to do with that bike's success, and why I myself bought an LHT frame earlier this year.  It's clear that they share a generally Rivendellian view of what makes a good mostly paved-road tourer: generous clearances, copius rack and fender braze-ons, long chainstays, slacker angles, tall headtubes.  It does, however, have some distinctively Surly design aspects.  1 1/8" threadless headset is one, as well as the fact that it is available in a disc brake version, or that even in sizes up to 64cm you have the option of 700c or 26" wheels. 

However, I hardly think you can attribute Surly's success generally to it's agreement with Rivendell in one of its models.  Surly's early success came from being being one of the first companies to cater to a number of closely related niches that grew a lot during the 2000's: fixed gear road riding (the Steamroller and their fixed gear hubs), singlespeed mountain biking (their first product was the 1x1, which i think was the first mass-produced dedicated SS MTB frame), and 29er's (the Karate Monkey).  When I first got into riding fixed gears ~10 years ago, they were the only company making frames and components for the purpose of riding fixed gears on the road, with more appropriate durability, clearances, etc than the track racing stuff that had been available before.  You could even argue that Rivendell took a page out of Surly's book with the Quickbeam, a bike for riding singlespeed or fixed gear on the road that came out after Surly had been making the Steamroller and Cross Check (a singlespeedable cross bike) for a number of years.  I'm not arguing that, but you could.

Since then, they've also invested in a number of other tiny niches and reaped the rewards when they expanded: they basically invented mass-market fat bikes, and were the first people to make a dedicated Xtracycle-compatible longtail cargo bike, a market which is now growing great guns. 

In summary, Surly's a cool company (or rather subsidiary of a company), but not just because they agree with Grant on the topic of touring bikes.  I for one have always appreciated their somewhat irreverent marketing, although I can understand it doesn't quite float everyone's boat.  I'll probably order a "Racing Sucks" patch.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I was just logging on to make an argument similar to Jeremy's about the similarity of the LHT to the Atlantis/All-Rounder not being an indication that Surly somehow plagiarized RBW's designs when they made the LHT. That claim has been repeated again and again, but it simply doesn't hold water when you compare the large number of differences between the two models. The idea of touring bikes having relaxed geometry, sturdy tubing, lowish BBs, and long chainstays/wheelbase was not invented by either RBW or by Surly. I like to imagine that both companies thought that the touring bike market was in for a resurgence, after lying mostly dormant for 20 years. Both designs used classic touring bike angles and dimensions for the most part, but were tweaked to accommodate the larger tires that were becoming available. On the other hand, I feel that the Atlantis was a revolutionary bike and that its relative success may have encouraged some other companies to jump on the touring bandwagon. I also feel that a lot of people buy a LHT as a "poor (wo)man's Atlantis".

As for the perceived Surly/RBW rivalry vibe I mentioned, I guess I was just referring to the sense that a lot of people here feel that Surly is unwelcoming and hostile, while Riv is warm and fuzzy and inclusive. Maybe just my imagination.

[Bill Lindsay]

I agree that it would be absurd to call the LHT a copy of the Atlantis.  If people do that again and again, then they are being absurd every time.  Maybe I just tune out know-nothing claims like that.  I also agree that a lot of people on this list do not find Surly's sense of humor funny.  You, Jim, certainly are not imagining that.  I think Surly's sense of humor is hysterical.  I especially like the "bongs, farts and chainsaws" sticker you described.  Mail it to me if you aren't going to use it.  :-)  I also like this quote from the Steamroller page:

"You can get fancier bikes, but what are you, some kind of dick?"

I know there's plenty of room in this little corner of the bike business for both of them.  For every handwringer that gets all annoyed at a "racing sucks" patch, there's a techno-grouch grouching that Grant is a retro-grouch.  If somebody wants to go and get offended at something, nobody is going to stop them.  

[Mike]

I have a CC, LHT and a BD and love them all. I also have a Hilsen and a custom randonneuring bike. If I could have only one bike it would be my LHT. I love that bike. I've heard people complain about the tubing and the geometry and on and on and on. I just get on the thing and turn the pedals and it takes me where I want to go and if I'm not smiling it's not because of the bike. My only complaint about the LHT, no kickstand plate. The bike is stable with a load, handles just fine and has clearance for fenders and big tires. I love that in the bigger sizes you can choose between 700c and 26" wheels. You can also get a disc version. 

As for the Racing Sucks patches... I'll order one. I think as others pointed out, it's tongue and cheek. Multiple Surly employees post on their blog. I must admit, I'm not a fan of Glen's posts. My favorite post tend to be by Skip who, if I'm not mistaken is Surly's equivalent of Grant. Anyway, here's a post of his from 2011 that I love. I think of it as Surly's version of Tips For Happy Riding.

If you think your bike looks good, it does.

If you like the way your bike rides, it’s an awesome bike.

You don’t need to spend a million dollars to have a great bike, but if you do spend a million dollars and know what you want you’ll probably also have a great bike.

Yes, you can tour on your bike – whatever it is.

Yes, you can race on your bike – whatever it is.

Yes, you can commute on your bike – whatever it is.

26” wheels or 29” or 650b or 700c or 24” or 20” or whatever – yes, that wheel size is rad and you’ll probably get where you’re going.

Disc brakes, cantis, v-brakes, and road calipers all do a great job of stopping a bike when they’re working and adjusted.

No paint job makes everyone happy.

Yes, you can put a rack on that. Get some p-clamps if there are no mounts.

Steel is a great material for making bike frames - so is aluminum, carbon fiber, and titanium.

You can have your saddle at whatever angle makes you happy.

Your handlebars can be lower than your saddle, even with your saddle, or higher than your saddle. Whichever way you like it is right.

Being shuttled up a downhill run does not make you a weak person, nor does choosing not to fly off of a 10 foot drop.

Bike frames made overseas can be super cool. Bike frames made in the USA can be super cool.

Hey, tattooed and pierced long shorts wearin flat brim hat red bull drinkin white Oakley sportin rad person on your full suspension big hit bike – nice work out there.

Hey, little round glasses pocket protector collared shirt skid lid rear view mirror sandal wearing schwalbe marathon running pletscher two-leg kickstand tourist – good job.

Hey, shaved leg skinny as hell super duper tan line hear rate monitor checking power tap train in the basement all winter super loud lycra kit million dollar wheels racer – keep it up.

The more you ride your bike, the less your ass will hurt.

The following short answers are good answers, but not the only ones for the question asked – 29”, Brooks, lugged, disc brake, steel, Campagnolo, helmet, custom, Rohloff, NJS, carbon, 31.8, clipless, porteur.

No bike does everything perfectly. In fact, no bike does anything until someone gets on it to ride.

Sometimes, recumbent bikes are ok.

Your bikeshop is not trying to screw you. They’re trying to stay open.

Buying things off of the internet is great, except when it sucks.

Some people know more about bikes than you do. Other people know less.

Maybe the person you waved at while you were out riding didn’t see you wave at them.

It sucks to be harassed by assholes in cars while you’re on a bike. It also sucks to drive behind assholes on bikes.

Did you build that yourself? Awesome. Did you buy that? Cool.

Wheelies are the best trick ever invented. That’s just a fact.

Which is better, riding long miles, or hanging out under a bridge doing tricks? Yes.

Yes, you can break your collar bone riding a bike like that.

Stopping at stop signs is probably a good idea.

Driving with your bikes on top of your car to get to a dirt trail isn’t ideal, but for most people it’s necessary.

If your bike has couplers, or if you have a spendy bike case, or if you pay a shop to pack your bike, or if you have a folding bike, shipping a bike is still a pain in the ass for everyone involved.

That dent in your frame is probably ok, but maybe it’s not. You should get it looked at.

Touch up paint always looks like shit. Often it looks worse than the scratch.

A pristine bike free of dirt, scratches, and wear marks makes me sort of sad.

A bike that’s been chained to the same tree for three years caked with rust and missing parts makes me sad too.

Bikes purchased at Wal-mart, Target, Costco, or K-mart are generally not the best bang for your buck.

Toe overlap is not the end of the world, unless you crash and die – then it is.

Sometimes parts break. Sometimes you crash. Sometimes it’s your fault.

Yes, you can buy a bike without riding it first. It would be nice to ride it first, but it’s not a deal breaker not to.

Ownership of a truing stand does not a wheel builder make.

32 spokes, 48 spokes, 24 spokes, three spokes? Sure.

Single speed bikes are rad. Bikes with derailleurs and cassettes are sexy. Belt drive internal gear bikes work great too.

Columbus, TruTemper, Reynolds, Ishiwata, or no brand? I’d ride it.

Tubeless tires are pretty cool. So are tubes.

The moral of RAGBRAI is that families and drunken boobs can have fun on the same route, just maybe at different times of day.

Riding by yourself kicks ass. You might also try riding with a group.

Really fast people are frustrating, but they make you faster. When you get faster, you might frustrate someone else.

Stopping can be as much fun as riding.

Lots of people worked their asses off to build whatever trail or road or alley you’re riding on. You should thank them.

[Liesl]

"Hey, little round glasses pocket protector collared shirt skid lid rear view mirror sandal wearing schwalbe marathon running pletscher two-leg kickstand tourist – good job."

I just love it when someone tells me good job!  But how did he know I had a pocket protector under my English Riding Jacket?

[Edwin W]

"Wheelies are the best trick ever invented. That’s just a fact."

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/12/2013 11:57 AM, Edwin W wrote:

"Wheelies are the best trick ever invented. That�s just a fact."

I thought this (�La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." ) was supposed to be the best trick.

[Bill Lindsay]

I'll go out on a limb and predict that the guy who designed the "bongs, farts, and chainsaws" sticker might not be up to speed on his Baudelaire

[Deacon Patrick]

Steve, "the greatest trick of the Devil..."  Clearly Satan's tricks do not rise to the echelons in which wheelies are found. Which makes sense since wheelies require and lead to exuberant joy and Satan has no capacity for exuberant joy. So there is no theological conflict here.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Mike]

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:34:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 12/12/2013 11:57 AM, Edwin W wrote:

 

I thought this (�La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." ) was supposed to be the best trick.

In the words of The Dude, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." 

[Patrick Moore]

I have nothing against racing, as long as I don't have to do it. I rather like watching the ballet-like elegance of pros in paceline.

But if this is true, count me out.

http://sciencenordic.com/fuel-cells-speed-cyclists

Patrick "paleo-tech for me" Moore, abjuring nasty, complicated multiple gears and freewheels in ABQ, NM.

OTOH, there is this. You decide if 5 more years is worth the trouble. Me, if I had to just toodle along, I'd quit cycling and take up walking -- fast walking.

http://sciencenordic.com/fast-cyclists-live-longer

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/12/2013 06:44 PM, Mike wrote:

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:34:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 12/12/2013 11:57 AM, Edwin W wrote:

 

I thought this ("La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." ) was supposed to be the best trick.

In the words of The Dude, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." 

--

No, Baudelaire's opinion, not mine...

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

;-)                       !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[Deacon Patrick]

Ahhhhhh. Perhaps you've fallen prey to the Devil's best trick? Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Peter Morgano]

That riding carbon won't actually kill you?

[Deacon Patrick]

Och, Peter, you must be reading the French Dadaist translation. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Montclair BobbyB]

...the guy who designed the "bongs, farts, and chainsaws" sticker might not be up to speed on his Baudelaire...

How can you be so sure?  After all, was not one of Baudelaire's most famous works "Les pets du mal" ???

On Friday, December 13, 2013 10:45:44 AM UTC-5, Pudge wrote:

;-)                       !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lindsay
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 4:43 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Racing Sucks

 

I'll go out on a limb and predict that the guy who designed the "bongs, farts, and chainsaws" sticker might not be up to speed on his Baudelaire

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:34:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 12/12/2013 11:57 AM, Edwin W wrote:

"Wheelies are the best trick ever invented. That�s just a fact."

I thought this (�La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." ) was supposed to be the best trick.

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[Bill Lindsay]

##mindblown##

I did say might not be.  I made no statement of certainty.  ;-P

[Ron Mc]

now I like that one - "Carbon Kills"

[Ron Mc]

and I think "Not Dumb" would be a better bike button than Unracer

[Coconutbill]

Hugh:

have a carsick sticker for you 

[Ron Mc]

On my 20-mi creek bottom ride this morning, the club was out again, and I saw my same large gentleman - he has leaned out a bit, though he was still pedaling a little slow.  He has moved his bars up higher, and he was wearing baggy clothes.  He smiled and waved at me - I smiled and waved back.  Sporting my rando bag to peel my layers as I warmed up - started out at 40-degrees, and a fast descent leaving my neighborhood, but was pushing 60 by the time I climbed back into my neighborhood.    Taking a longer ride tomorrow, and trying to burn some calories myself - past month have been short, though quick rides with my daughter.  

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:51:41 PM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:

here's what I like about Just Ride.  It describes that racing is not the end to the means.  That the means count for themselves.  I'll never be able to forget the sight of a 300+-lb guy in lycra torturing himself over a long threadless stem - the effort was just maintaining the position - he was going very slow on flat land.  He looked up longingly as I pedaled the other way, moving quickly, mostly upright in my moustache cockpit and baggy pants.  He was a very round peg in a divaricate hole.  I really hope he sticks with the riding, but somebody sold him something that they would want to ride themselves and thought he should want the same.  This may be an actual case of racing sucks, and I guess if the guys buying and selling bicycles get it, then it may accomplish something positive.  Obviously Surly, along with every other steel frame maker, is building something that we can relate to, if not aspire to.   Unracer - I think it's a weird word, and it's not one I'm going to wear on my togs or bike luggage, but I understand it.  A racing sucks patch?  I don't see a place for it other than offending your racing buddies, just as the author states as its purpose - I don't have a place for that.  

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 7:29:56 PM UTC-6, ascpgh wrote:

For me, bike racing was not the thing in which to compete. I did my due diligence in my competitive discipline, I know the sacrifices, I can share and relate with others about the depravities we have in common. Bike racers know nothing of the cycling I undertake nor are they prepared to follow me as I am not them.

Cycling had always been my refuge from the all-in necessity of competition as I had been trained for it. Then the sign-sprint toads started showing up on my mountain bike rides and I had to veer into more odd cycling pursuits than they were interested. Anyone who knows the rearrangement one's life must undertake in order to truly be competitive in their personal pursuit knows well enough that anything below that level is a joke and a situation begging for someone to get hurt. I just would like to ride my bike, be it my Rivendell or my Surly; font on the down tube independent.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Patrick Moore]

Thatsa nice-a! I can't get comfortable with M-bars, but the pic, and all the scuttlebutt about Albatrosses, makes me want to build a singletrack bike with -- what is a proper generic term? -- "upright" bars, at about the same height. 

On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

[........]

[Ron Mc]

Thanks Patrick, 

I really upgraded the old Raleigh buying the Phil wheelset that Bob L. listed right after Christmas.  I had been rolling on my 30+y-o Zeus/Rigida 27s.  Timing was perfect.  A guy was looking for a fly rod built by Dwight Lyons and I had one to sell, so I offered the same amount for the wheels and Bob took me up on it.  I went from an Ultra 6 to a 7 in the rear, 12-32T, and 19 usable gears 22" to 104". Parigis are all that will fit under my 37mm Honjo fenders,  Got my first good ride on it this morning, and on a mile-long descent easily outran my 104" for 45 mph.  It was a hoot.  I do love my M bars - they have a nice aero spot on them I dug into this morning climbing that mile against a 15mph headwind.  I'm spending a lot more time in 80" gear on this wheelset.  

[Patrick Moore]

I remember the low, narrow, aero position. Almost 15 years ago I commuted for 2-3 years or so on a too -small (56 cm c-c) mid '60s Bottechia that I had built up as my second fixie with custom Salsa upjutter to get the bar high enough (a lot lower than I could tolerate now, it must be said). The bike was light and nimble, and with the levers placed more or less a la Grant (ie, far up on the curves) I could get low and narrow while gripping the hoods. Nelson longflap on the back. Good times.

On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 1:51 PM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

 I do love my M bars - they have a nice aero spot on them I dug into this morning climbing that mile against a 15mph headwind.  I'm spending a lot more time in 80" gear on this wheelset.  

--

Burque (NM)

 

Resumes that get interviews:

http://www.resumespecialties.com/

[Ron Mc]

something else crossing the club ride yesterday - a pair of large women.  I had already peeled my windbreaker, but was still wearing my knee socks, and they would get swapped for merino footies at my halfway stop.  But this woman looked at me and burst out laughing at my togs - knickers, knee socks, a red merino long-sleeve with a yellow tee over it - it really wasn't for them to see me, it was for pickup trucks.  The club leader always wears crazy hats - yesterday it was a headdress of colored feathers like a comic bird crest.  I guess she thought I was part of the show.  I would have cried for her, but her spandex was already crying.  

[Hugh Smitham]

I'm not intentionally trying to be mean but in what other environment would an obese person wear tight Lycra spandex? Maybe a yoga class but that's indoors and more or less private. If bicycle racing has lauded it self for (and this is highly questionable and been answered by Grant and others on this forum) advancing the sport then this ubiquitous use of Lycra deflates some of that supposed claim. There needs to be BB&H store in every major urban center to re-educate the masses of non-racers acting like racers. Let's stop the insanity. Disclaimer: I think you should wear what feels comfortable to you I'll just avert my gaze in another direction. 

Ron, you were just too close to the group and well "sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you". What would have been their response had you laughed back at them? Anyways knickers are cool or warm depending on your geographic location and sense of style.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

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[RJM]

Sumo wrestling comes to mind.

Heck, WWF comes to mind.

[Daniel D.]

That's the bottom line, My thought when I see overweight people out in lycra riding their "race" bikes is "good for them"

On Sunday, January 19, 2014 10:38:25 AM UTC-8, hsmitham wrote:

 Disclaimer: I think you should wear what feels comfortable to you 

[Ron Mc]

It just didn't skin my teeth - I thought the whole thing was funny.  Just got in from a ride - crossed San Antonio to the Frankenbike meet.  Had some good Mexican food - south of downtown even. 

The Frankenbike is a hoot.  A half-acre of tables selling old parts, frames, old bikes.  It's a lot of fun.  Hadn't been to one since last April and it's really taken off - grown a lot larger.  But that visit last April, my old Raleigh is famous there.  Everyone remembered me and there were a lot of old Raleighs for show - none for sale - they were all for show and tell - they were the personal bikes of the guys running the tables.  So I guess that's being an influence, too.  

Another time we were on a trail and two girls were talking how they hated their saddles and were going to buy (more) new ones - they were both up to chamois plus double gel pads.  My daughter was there with her load hauler and canvas shorts.  I showed them her B68S, but they were unimpressed.  

Absolutely, wear what's comfortable, But I still like starting with a comfy bike.  

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Daniel,

I think that's exactly right. They are out there on their bike, so
that's great, but I do worry about those that think they have to wear
lycra to go out on a ride, so they don't ride. That would be a shame.

Toshi

[Hugh Smitham]

Daniel,

I think it's awesome that they're out on a bike...I do think it's weird that they feel compelled to wear tight fitting clothing to get out and ride a bike for what ever reason, maybe it's a need to fit in isn't that our nature as human beings to fit in? It's sort of a built in survival thing. If I'm being truly honest I feel it boarders on  the ridiculous. I'm skinny and I always felt sort of weird running around with a super hero outfit where you could sort of see my junk. I since have seen the light and realize I can wear regular clothes to enjoy a bike ride and not subject folks to unseemly protrusions. Just so you know I'm attempting to be self deprecating here. My comments are 90% meant for humorous purposes only and a dash of reality thrown in. 

I do really feel for folks that are overweight it happen IMHO to be a recent cultural thing eating crap food being sedentary watching sports and others being active on the TV and in some cases it's a medical condition that requires a physician supervision.

Furthermore and seriously other overweight folks may see the Lycra wearing variety and think there is no way in hell I'm gonna wear that to ride a bike and just give up on a fantastic activity. Racing has infected the overall consciousness IMO negatively. It's this stupid competitive chip we carry around that prevents a bulk of society to slow down and enjoy the ride. There my rant is over for now, but I reserve the right to get chippy again.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

[Eric Platt]

This is the reason I haven't worn visible lycra in years. (Confession - do wear Novara padded short liners, and those have lycra.)

Even in more baggy clothing I wear feel like I'm a bear on a trike in a circus most of the time.  

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

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[Ron Mc]

honestly, I'd rather rather ride with either of those women - even misguided humor is preferred company to sanctimonious.  I just think it's a shame that every time they go into a bike shop they're inundated with the image of racing to the point that it affects how they spend their $2000 and how they dress to partake.  One thing that was clear, my large gentleman friend got the idea just from seeing me in passing, seeing that you can ride in comfort, and went right to work on his cockpit and his apparel.  

Was talking to my long-time friend on the phone last evening.  He's crossed 290 lbs and type 2 diabetes.  But he's dusted off his old bikes and is at least pedaling the neighborhood.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/20/2014 08:22 AM, Ron Mc wrote:
> honestly, I'd rather rather ride with either of those women - even
> misguided humor is preferred company to sanctimonious. I just think
> it's a shame that every time they go into a bike shop they're
> inundated with the image of racing to the point that it affects how
> they spend their $2000 and how they dress to partake. One thing that
> was clear, my large gentleman friend got the idea just from seeing me
> in passing, seeing that you can ride in comfort, and went right to
> work on his cockpit and his apparel.
>

Many people wear lycra cycling clothing for reasons that have nothing
whatsoever to do with racing. People here ought to keep that in mind.

[Ron Mc]

and I promise never ever to darken your trail - a promise I've made before, and a promise I'll keep.  

[Hugh Smitham]

>Many people wear lycra cycling clothing for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with racing.  People here ought to keep that in mind

.Do tell?

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

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[Eric Norris]

I often wear Lycra clothing, and I don’t race. Lycra shorts in particular are commonly worn by many non-racers, including randonneurs. 

The latest issue of American Randonneur has an advertisement from Boure cycling wear, and only one photo that I can find (of the dozens in the issue) that shows anyone riding in anything *but* standard (probably Lycra-based) shorts.

For many people (including me), they are more comfortable on long rides than regular shorts.

--Eric Norris
Email: campyo...@me.com
Web: www.campyonly.com
Blog: http://campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
Flickr: www.flickr.com/photos/campyonlyguy

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[Ron Mc]

Velo Orange has their own new sticker that defames no one - Enjoy Life  http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/veloorange-enjoy-life-stickers.html

On Monday, January 20, 2014 11:19:35 AM UTC-6, hsmitham wrote:

>Many people wear lycra cycling clothing for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with racing.  People here ought to keep that in mind

.Do tell?

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 5:30 AM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

On 01/20/2014 08:22 AM, Ron Mc wrote:

honestly, I'd rather rather ride with either of those women - even misguided humor is preferred company to sanctimonious.  I just think it's a shame that every time they go into a bike shop they're inundated with the image of racing to the point that it affects how they spend their $2000 and how they dress to partake.  One thing that was clear, my large gentleman friend got the idea just from seeing me in passing, seeing that you can ride in comfort, and went right to work on his cockpit and his apparel.

Many people wear lycra cycling clothing for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with racing.  People here ought to keep that in mind.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/20/2014 02:48 PM, Ron Mc wrote:
> Velo Orange has their own new sticker that defames no one - Enjoy Life
> http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/veloorange-enjoy-life-stickers.html

Well, that's a sentiment we all can agree with. And being on a bicycle
is a great way to go about it, too.

[Eric Norris]

I have that sticker on my car and my workbench.

And I wear Lycra. 

--Eric Norris
Email: campyo...@me.com
Web: www.campyonly.com
Blog: http://campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy
Flickr: www.flickr.com/photos/campyonlyguy

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[rob markwardt]

I wear thicker lycra tights (no pads) while riding pretty much full-time from November to April.  I did the knicker thing for awhile but I feel more comfortable in tights...I think they work better in the rain and actually feel warmer. In the summer light regular shorts do the trick. 

In fact I've got a pair of large MUSA knickers for the price of shipping if anybody wants them.  Used with a nickle sized hole in the knee area but plenty of life left.

Rob

[Patrick Moore]

Yes, me too -- I've switched to tights and cycling long pants (MUSA originals, the trimmer model). Knickers require knee socks -- two items to put on -- while tights and riding pants cover the entire leg. And I keep getting cold air leakage at the crucial knee overlap between knicker and sock.

Tho' today, rising 55*F, on a 20 miler bosque ride, the new-model (December 2013) Bellwether wind tights were *too* warm and felt clammy at the knee: warm and clammy, not cold and clammy. The older pair (purchased circa 1991) are not quite as warm while being quite comfortable down to the 20s. I guess it's the difference between the older model's articulated nylon flaps over the knee, vesus the new model's doubled material at the knee.

Still, better knees warm and clammy than cold and windy.

[Deacon Patrick]

I love the knickers for three-season wear (and wear wool not-so-tights under as needed). Why? Pants are always moving up and down the leg, creating more sensory input than my brain is happy with. Knickers, which I lock down just below the knee, move very little in comparison but allow complete freedom of movement.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

I may invest in some lighter tights or "not-so-tights" that I can wear under the knickers (I have four which I am carefully saving) instead of long socks; jury is presently trying to decide between another pair of long riding pants and said lighter tights. One pair o' tights is as easy, at least, to get into and out of, compared to one pair of long socks.

One criterion is simplicity. At home I follow the very civilized Chinese and Muslim convention of removing my shoes upon entry into the house, and, indoors in winter, I wear thick wool socks inside of moccasins, simply changing footwear according to activity. Knicker socks require me to change socks -- naturally -- while with pants or tights I have only to change pants. (I suppose I could simply wear something like a galabiyah for all occasions -- reminds me of the O. Henry story of the wealthy scion and man-about-town who disappeared and was finally found at peace in an alpine monastery -- he had finally found a garment that didn't bag at the knees).

At any rate, since I can't -- and won't! -- ride in street clothes (nothing less comfortable than trying to ride in Cahart jeans, with them digging into my gut and exposing the rear, not to mention chafing) I want something that is easy to get into and out of.

Nit picking, of course. Ride what you brung.

Ain't we really blessed that our troubles reduce to obsessing about what to wear while riding?

Patrick Moore, counting his blessings and obsessing over minutiae in ABQ, NM.

[Deacon Patrick]

We are also barefoot inside year round (and outside 3 seasons of the year). Only when sick or at -20˚F outside (which makes our crawlspace colder) do I need my leather-bottomed socks on. I solve the simplicity issue by wearing calf warmers (which are really cut off sleeves from old sweaters). They fit snug like socks, but leave the foot open, so I can be barefoot, or wear moccasins or even moccasins and socks (if it's really cold out). And, it's amazing how warm bare feet stay when the calves are covered in wool.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Matthew J]

> Why? Pants are always moving up and down the leg, creating more sensory input than my brain is happy with. Knickers, which I lock down just below the knee, 

> move very little in comparison but allow complete freedom of movement.

Schoeller fabric pants from the likes of Swrve and Outlier do not impede freedom of movement, are comfortable and blend in well when you get off the bike and mingle among people not riding.  I don't care one way or the other what people wear or do not wear riding (although if you wear nothing I would prefer you be in decent shape), but personally do not like wearing lycra or tights.  Fortunately I have found many pants and shorts that are quite comfortable for me.

[Hugh Smitham]

I had a pair of Swrve but didn't like that you needed a belt to hold them up as they'd constantly slip down especially as I came off the saddle. I'm out school and don't go in for the low rider look. I found these Prana to be for me the most comfortable for me in temperate climates the fabric stretches, dries quickly, has a integrated belt cinch and looks decent when off the bike 

http://www.prana.com/nemesis-knicker.html?color=Cargo%20Green

The Shorts are also great for hotter days.

Paired with these Devold breifs

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/au1.htm

I can ride comfortably for 4 hours, longer than yeah probably padded underwear.

Because I live in a warm climate I'll wear a long sleeve synthetic shirt with SPF protection these shirts dry quick and allow air flow for more comfort...if it gets a bit nippy I'll wear a MUSA from Riv wool tshirt and I'm good to go.

If the weather gets real cool I have a pair of wool Ibex commuter knickers.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

--

[Matthew J]

> I can ride comfortably for 4 hours, longer than yeah probably padded underwear. 

With you here.  At the insistent recommendation of some riders who use them, I tried padded base layers on a four day tour.  I found them hot, confining, and not at all an improvement over wool or capiliene briefs.

[Ron Mc]

Eric, I'm glad the sticker is on your workbench and not on your lycra.  

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Whether one chooses to wear lycra, wool, themed jerseys, London Fog jackets, togas, cycling-specific shoes or sandals - or not - shouldn't be a point of divisiveness.

It has always struck me that the point was to break down the elitism of opinion which said that to be a "serious" cyclist, you had to be kitted up. There's no point in engaging in that rigidity of opinion from the other end of the spectrum. 

The original point of the thread - or at least the UnRacer ideal - was that professional racing supplied the model for how we were supposed to engage in cycling - the the detriment of enjoyment and the exclusion of most folks.  I mean, I remember when baggy shorts for mountain biking was a pretty radical idea.

It makes sense to me that you choose what to wear based on what you want to wear - guided by where you will ride, what you'll do along the way and what is comfortable to you. 

If it gets you happily out on the bike, that's really the point.

- Jim / cyclofiend.com

[Steven Frederick]

I sure like my bib shorts for longer rides.  A hi-viz jersey is a practical choice too-safe, comfortable/breathable, and the pockets are handy.  If you buy "Club cut," or size up, they don't have to be overly tight either...

Steve

[Matthew J]

> A hi-viz jersey is a practical choice too-safe, comfortable/breathable, and the pockets are handy.

Yes.  But then you have invested on a top that can be somewhat impractical when not on the bike for those of us uncomfortable wearing LOOK AT ME clothing in  a situations where look at me is not a concern.

I wear this Nathan vest when I need hi viz (night or day) over whatever top fits the weather and ultimate riding destination.  When I am off the bike it packs neatly into my bike bag.

http://www.nathansports.com/visibility/reflective-gear/cycling-vest