Well, it finally happened

[Mark Reimer]

I woke up this morning to a fresh layer of the white stuff. November 19th is really late for snow here, so it's not very surprising. I still had the Compass Barlow Pass tires with fenders on my Atlantis, which were not going to cut it on the fresh snow and ice. I scrambled to change to some 2.1 Thunder Burts and no fenders before work. These were brand new Thunder Burts, as I've been using 2.25's all summer. I've rubbed the paint clean off the frame and had the wheels grind to a halt a few times because of the marginal clearance. The 2.1's have quite a lot of room all around and will be a great trail riding tire I think. 

Anyway, I rode in to work today. The first snow is always absurd. All the drivers forget how to drive in snow, and being anywhere near a cyclist causes absolute panic. Thankfully I made it in safely. It was even kinda fun... :)

[hsmitham]

Mark it seems like you're a candidate for a plump tire ride 26x4/5??

Enjoy your Winter Wonderland while I sweat it out. 

Tail Winds,

~Hugh

[Mark Reimer]

I've been working on selling some road bike stuff to fund the purchase of a Crust Evasion frame - it's a new company a friend of mine has just launched. It's built around a 26" x 3" tire. There is a second model coming out in January that fits a full 4" fat tire, or 27.5x3", or standard 29er.  I'm pretty keen on the mid-fat 26" though. I'm hoping to have it arranged by January or so!

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[Tim Gavin]

Mark - Nice ride!  How were the Thunder Burts in the snow?  I will set up my KOM (rigid 26er) with 2.1" TBs (the frame is at the powder coater now).

Hugh - I commuted last year on a fat bike with 26 x 4.25" studded tires; it was a great success.  Here in Iowa, we're forecasted to get our first snow tomorrow afternoon.  I'm going to ride the fat bike in and hope for an inch of fresh powder (and thankfully, a tailwind) for the ride home

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 11:44 AM, hsmitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Mark Reimer]

So far so good! Last year I had WTB Nano 2.1's all winter and I love them. But the TB's have been soooooo nice all summer, so I anticipate good things. Nice aggressive side knobs for fast trails, but light and fast rolling with a smooth center tread for when I'm on exposed pavement and ice

[Tim Gavin]

Cool.  Personally, I only trust studded tires on ice.  The MUPs that I use get ruts through the snow/slush that freeze overnight, and those ruts will yank your tire out from under you if you can't climb out of them.

I'm really impressed with the studded Dillinger 5 tires; they're barely any slower than the stock Specialized GC tires (but WAY louder).  Still, crazy expensive.  I was working part time at the LBS when I bought the fat bike and tires, so the small discount was appreciated.

[Mark Reimer]

I'm not personally a fan of studded tires, but understand the appeal. I ride on ice a lot. Pretty much every day for 4-5 months each year, as I commute to work by riding on the frozen Red River. The city plows a nice path down to the ice, which starts one block from my home and ends 3 blocks from work. Score! In my personal experience, I find a file tread tire run at a very low pressure provides great grip while also rolling nicely when you hit the pavement. They also handle packed snow trails very well. On smooth ice (like where the river has been prepared for ice skating) I don't mind sliding around a bit here and there, helps keep my bike handling skills in check. Usually the guys with studs end up bailing as often as I do anyway. I've been running Challenge Grifo XS 32mm tires every winter before I got the Rivendell (remember, I've only owned the Atlantis for one winter!) and found I'd regularly fly past guys on fat bikes or studded tires. Maybe they were just enjoying the view though :)

--

[Deacon Patrick]

Tim,

My grocery run yesterday was on my 6 mo. old TB's and they did quite well. I'd have to swap back to Smart Sams to see what a more lugged tire is like, but I think some general differences are (both 2.1"):

-- TB's under-inflated grip well despite the smaller knobbies, having a tendency to float more hold a line more easily.

-- SS's, under-inflated have better drive traction but the difference is small enough to be negligible. Riding a few more pedal strokes up a hill is not much advantage to the downfalls of swimmier steering (center ridge issue?).

Conditions yesterday: Highly variable: 16+" of snow, medium wet, oddly partially plowed in places by an ATV whose blade wasn't lowered; snow and ice packed roads, high cross winds (50+ mph) with blowing snow, sunny melted spots, slush, powdered slush (like granular playdough, the worst stuff to ride in).

The only way I think things could have been improved (though I don't know by how much) is a Moonlander fatbike. But I has a blast, spectacular density of adventure per mile, and got to offer a 4x4 a tow (they passed). Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Hugh Smitham]

Hey Mark,

No expert here, but what I've read from folks who obsesse about ride characteristics claim that 4" and above is where you gain the performance/float in sand or snow. A 650b plus 3 or 3.25" or 26×3 is a compromise at that end of the spectrum on those surfaces.

I'm in the process myself on a different beast so I've been thinking more on what kind of rig is optimal for the bulk of riding I want to do.

Personally, I'd like a bike optimized for 650b+× 3.25 and if I hit a super sandy patch I'll live with the reduced performance. This is where the N+1really comes in.

Tail Winds,

~Hugh

[Mark Reimer]

I can see that. I'm no expert either, just going based on the bikes that have come and gone from my circle of riding friends. A few years back there were probably a dozen fat bikes showing up on our weekly winter rides. Now there might be one.  Everybody sold them. The general consensus was that there is a very small margin of terrain where a fat bike really excels, the kind of terrain and snow where no other bike can manage. Anything less and they are just slow and overkill. Anything more and no bike at all can ride. Sand is interesting though, and not something we have much of here. It's possible we just don't have the best fat-bike friendly terrain here. 

On snowy rides, most people I know find narrower tires are an advantage in, as the tire cuts through to a hard surface. This is not true in deep powdery snow of course. But if there is a trail or road down there somewhere, and it's been snowing a lot, narrow tires can be pretty great IMO. 

For commuting, I definitely find that my experience dictates anything wider than 32ish mm is not an advantage. On roads where there is snow piled up here and there from poor/no plowing, wider tires just float up on top and slide around, losing all control and traction. 

Personally, I'd love something in the 3" wide platform for groomed/harder packed snow trails, but more importantly for summer dirt and trail touring. I have dreams of riding the divide some year very soon, and I think that'd be the perfect bike for it. I'm sure the Atlantis could do it, but might be a little out of its element in the sticky mud and weight category. 

[Patrick Moore]

FWIW, I've found that even 60 mm tires, if you can run them quite soft -- sub 20 psi at least in front (I've run them as low as 12/16 without problem; tubes; Big Apples, so, while supple, not the very thinnest of sidewalls) -- I've found that these do considerably better in sand up to about 3" deep than the typical 1.95 at 50 psi. Even better, IME, though some deny this, is that a wheel that is 3" or so bigger in diameter, ie 29", rolls through sand even better. I do quite well with my 700C 50mm/1.95 Furious Freds in such sand, even if at slightly higher pressures because of the very thin sidewalls. The 700C Big Apples I used for a while, at 65 mm actual, were even better.

That said, if all my riding were in such sand (no more than 60% of my local dirt riding is really dirt, and of that, no more than 30% is sand over 1" deep) I'd be very interested in 650C "plus." BSNYC has been riding such a bike and apparently likes it.

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[Hugh Smitham]

Mark,

On Nov 19, 2015 12:10 PM, "Mark Reimer" <markn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I can see that. I'm no expert either, just going based on the bikes that have come and gone from my circle of riding friends. A few years back there were probably a dozen fat bikes showing up on our weekly winter rides. Now there might be one.  Everybody sold them. The general consensus was that there is a very small margin of terrain where a fat bike really excels, the kind of terrain and snow where no other bike can manage. Anything less and they are just slow and overkill. Anything more and no bike at all can ride. Sand is interesting though, and not something we have much of here. It's possible we just don't have the best fat-bike friendly terrain here. 
>
> On snowy rides, most people I know find narrower tires are an advantage in, as the tire cuts through to a hard surface. This is not true in deep powdery snow of course. But if there is a trail or road down there somewhere, and it's been snowing a lot, narrow tires can be pretty great IMO. 
>

I appreciate the first hand observations very helpful.

> For commuting, I definitely find that my experience dictates anything wider than 32ish mm is not an advantage. On roads where there is snow piled up here and there from poor/no plowing, wider tires just float up on top and slide around, losing all control and traction. 
>
> Personally, I'd love something in the 3" wide platform for groomed/harder packed snow trails, but more importantly for summer dirt and trail touring. I have dreams of riding the divide some year very soon, and I think that'd be the perfect bike for it. I'm sure the Atlantis could do it, but might be a little out of its element in the sticky mud and weight category. 

Yep 3" seems like a sweet spot. I spoke with Mike Schiller and we figured that a bike optimized for max 3.25 could also run 700×2" for more pavement oriented touring and not affect bottom bracket height. Plus there are a decent number of tire choices below 3" so that's the direction I'm headed. 

Tail Winds,

~Hugh

>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Hugh Smitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Mark,
>>
>> No expert here, but what I've read from folks who obsesse about ride characteristics claim that 4" and above is where you gain the performance/float in sand or snow. A 650b plus 3 or 3.25" or 26×3 is a compromise at that end of the spectrum on those surfaces.
>>
>> I'm in the process myself on a different beast so I've been thinking more on what kind of rig is optimal for the bulk of riding I want to do.
>>
>> Personally, I'd like a bike optimized for 650b+× 3.25 and if I hit a super sandy patch I'll live with the reduced performance. This is where the N+1really comes in.
>>
>> Tail Winds,
>>
>> ~Hugh
>>
>> On Nov 19, 2015 9:47 AM, "Mark Reimer" <markn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been working on selling some road bike stuff to fund the purchase of a Crust Evasion frame - it's a new company a friend of mine has just launched. It's built around a 26" x 3" tire. There is a second model coming out in January that fits a full 4" fat tire, or 27.5x3", or standard 29er.  I'm pretty keen on the mid-fat 26" though. I'm hoping to have it arranged by January or so!
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 11:44 AM, hsmitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mark it seems like you're a candidate for a plump tire ride 26x4/5??
>>>>
>>>> Enjoy your Winter Wonderland while I sweat it out. 
>>>>
>>>> Tail Winds,
>>>>
>>>> ~Hugh
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 9:19:29 AM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I woke up this morning to a fresh layer of the white stuff. November 19th is really late for snow here, so it's not very surprising. I still had the Compass Barlow Pass tires with fenders on my Atlantis, which were not going to cut it on the fresh snow and ice. I scrambled to change to some 2.1 Thunder Burts and no fenders before work. These were brand new Thunder Burts, as I've been using 2.25's all summer. I've rubbed the paint clean off the frame and had the wheels grind to a halt a few times because of the marginal clearance. The 2.1's have quite a lot of room all around and will be a great trail riding tire I think. 
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I rode in to work today. The first snow is always absurd. All the drivers forget how to drive in snow, and being anywhere near a cyclist causes absolute panic. Thankfully I made it in safely. It was even kinda fun... :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>