Winter cycling pants

[Clayton]

I have bum knees and the cold is locking them up. I am looking for recommendations for winter bicycling pants that are warm, water resistant, wind proof and have a full set of pockets. I'd like them to look like pants, not tights. Cheap would be nice. Right now, I have taken to wearing ACE knee wraps around my jeans. Not very comfy, but they do leave interesting wrinkles on my skin. I have been looking at softshell pants at Columbia and REI, but the price kinda makes me choke. I am hoping someone here has come up with an economical solution? Thanks in advance for your collective wisdom.

Clay

[Deacon Patrick]

Wool, nylon breeches, ventile breeches, in various combinations as needed by temp and precipitation. Ventile ain't cheep, but it will work better than most things.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

I've had made some very nice cycling knickers out of good quality men's dress pants, wool and cotton (ie, khakis cut like wool dress pants). At the simplest, I made them myself by simply cutting them off at the right length and sewing on velcro or running a shoelace through the hem -- I wish I stll had the pair of very nice tan wool gabardines I so altered. (I like mine long so that cinched just under the knee, they bag enough not to bind when you pedal -- the Tintin look.)

Dress pants tend to be fuller cut (pleats are nice) and higher rise, which IMO and IME makes them more comfortable when riding bent over.

The nice thing about knickers is that with knee socks they give you double protection at the knee. (And I had a lining sewn in to the front of two pairs.)

I also bought a couple of Nashbar knickers on sale a couple of years ago: $35 each, IIRC. No nonsense, heavy, black nylon canvas, do damned pad. Not as nice as the wools, but still very nice. I seem to recall that Nashbar has various knickers on sale right now.

Hell, for that matter, you can just wear long pants (not jeans! Ouch!) and use a clip or strap at the ankle. I've got a pair of Riv's original MUSA long pants that are nice when I don't want to wear tights or knickers.

On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Clayton <treef...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have bum knees and the cold is locking them up. I am looking for recommendations for winter bicycling pants that are warm, water resistant, wind proof and have a full set of pockets. I'd like them to look like pants, not tights. Cheap would be nice. Right now, I have taken to wearing ACE knee wraps around my jeans. Not very comfy, but they do leave interesting wrinkles on my skin. I have been looking at softshell pants at Columbia and REI, but the price kinda makes me choke. I am hoping someone here has come up with an economical solution? Thanks in advance for your collective wisdom.

Clay

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[Garth]

Do you really want wind proof pants Clayton ?  

Good quality softshell pants btw, are going to cost more, but their durability is outstanding for the most part. I wear some Marmot Scree pants in the Winter and just love 'em. The time to by these if cost is an issue, is in the Spring. Scree and many other like them are dual weaves, abrasion resistant on one side, soft on the inside. Good stretch. I bought mine one sizer larger than "normal".

[Dan Abelson]

Check out foxwear. Everything he does is custom so Lou can probably make something similar to what you are looking for. I have a jacket, power shield pants and rain pants from him and I am happy with all of them. His prices are extremely reasonable considering the custom sizing and materials.

Dan Abelson

On Oct 4, 2013 10:55 AM, "Clayton" <treef...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have bum knees and the cold is locking them up. I am looking for recommendations for winter bicycling pants that are warm, water resistant, wind proof and have a full set of pockets. I'd like them to look like pants, not tights. Cheap would be nice. Right now, I have taken to wearing ACE knee wraps around my jeans. Not very comfy, but they do leave interesting wrinkles on my skin. I have been looking at softshell pants at Columbia and REI, but the price kinda makes me choke. I am hoping someone here has come up with an economical solution? Thanks in advance for your collective wisdom.

Clay

--

[Ron Mc]

I'm happy with MUSA long pants, knee-length merino socks and merino wool knicker undies.  I shop sierratradingpost for most of my merino wool.  

[Clayton]

Thank you all for the advice. Today, I went to REI (really expensive items) and bought a pair of REI branded softshell trousers. Windproof to 25 mph and very water resistant. Kind of thin fleece, or napped interior of fabric. Zippered pockets and they are stretchy. I think they will work for now.

[Clayton]

I also bought velcro to try to make my own knickers. I will haunt the thrift stores.....

[Patrick Moore]

Be sure to let us see the runway photos when you've made some. Seriously, if you don't mind looking a bit retro, they are very practical.

OTOH, one cold morning I had ridden the 6 miles south to pick up the crosstown express bus and I was standing at the stop looking quite natty in my James Black cap, wool jersey, charcoal knickers, black knee socks, and perhaps unfortunately a pair of, I must admit, rather fey looking old-stock black leather Rivat or Vittoria sheepskin lined winter riding shoes -- they were old, narrow, and a wee bit turned up at the toe. The driver, a middle aged woman, looked at me and, quite seriously asked, "Are you going to a party?" 

On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Clayton <treef...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I also bought velcro to try to make my own knickers. I will haunt the thrift stores.....

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[Robert Barr]

Winter riding attire can be quite a fashion statement. My preferred cool to cold weather bottoms are shorts with different weights of capilene long underwear layered underneath. It probably doesn't help my look that I also tend to wear my oldest and most tattered shorts in this ensemble. Regardless - it works great down to about 20, then I shift over to softshell.  Bob (Indianapolis)

[LF]

Clay,

It would be helpful to understand why & in what way your knees are "bum."  My sore knee pain, etc went away after a year or so of wearing "barefoot" running shoes, daily stretches, and general kindness to my lower extremities. YMMV

Here in New England, after years of often successful trial and error, I've settled on layering on cold days. (I agree with those who think cycling knees need covering below 65 degrees.

On the bottom, I like some combination of: patagonia capilene midweight long underwear (it comes in 4 weights, is stink resistant, is very durable, cleans and dries quickly & easily. I switched from wool -- fussier to clean, less durable.), nylon hiking pants or denim pants,  rainlegs for windbreaker (http://tinyurl.com/nhu3ovo).

L.

[Jimmy Hutch]

Hey, Clay,

Sorry to hear about your bum knee and good luck with the REI stuff.  I realize my reply is a tad late to the game but I must plug the Levi's commuter jeans.  They a on the hipster skinny side but look like jeans because they are jeans, they stretch so they are comfortable like good cycling bib pants, they are somewhat water proof, the keep me warm and they are reasonably priced.  I've worn mine at least 50 times (washed them at least 3 times) and they are great.

-Jimmy

[clayton bailey]

Patrick, you made me laugh. Thank you!

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[Patrick Moore]

I seem to have that effect on  many people.

WRT the anecdote, my feelings were rather hurt by the lady's comment -- which she made in all innocence, I believe. I don't think I dress for fashion or for a look -- unless it is to flaunt retro jerseys and other kit if the teams are at least 30 years old. But after I got over my annoyance, I had to laugh myself. The shoes themselves *were* rather elvish, with their narrow, turned-up aspect.

[clayton bailey]

I will look into the Levis. Thanks for the tip!

[Mojo]

For 17 years I have used Sporthill's XC pant for cross country skiing and winter riding.  http://www.sporthill.com/products2011.php?ProductGroup=2100 They are warm into the 20s, teens without significant winds, and to zero with a light nylon shell. For down to -30F I use light wool underwear knicker under this pant with a Sporthill nylon shell over, a rather simple leg cover system for all outdoor winter fun. I have a 33-34 inch inseam on street pants (89cm PBH) and use the long version. They are a slim fit somewhere between a street pant and tight. They last a good long time. I still have my original 17 year old well worn pair, but have two more robust pairs now.

[Mojo]

Oh and for downhill skiing, I just pull a pair of robust Patagonia shell pants over these.

[Marc Irwin]

I have found a good wool base layer and MUSA pants are simple, versatile and keep me comfortable in Michigan winters.   I ride nearly every day.

Marc

On Friday, October 4, 2013 11:55:35 AM UTC-4, Clayton wrote:

[Clayton]

I have had several knee surgeries and have a cadaver ligament (ACL arthrograft) in my left knee, which I think is worn out. Either that or I tore the meniscus....again. Arthritis has struck both as I had a meniscus tear and surgery on the right knee too. I have some MUSA knickers. I will keep an eye out for a capiline sale. Thanks!

[Peter Morgano]

I grew up in the mountains in upstate NY and have to agree, if your core is warm your extremities will be warm. I focused on layers on my core and in below freezing weather my hands feet and knees are still warm. If you have good core layering you shouldn't need super pants.

On Oct 5, 2013 1:07 PM, "David T." <davidt...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

I am a Canadian from Northern Ontario.

Cold on your knees may not be a cause of your knee pain. Putting wraps and bandages on might just make it feel worse.

You don't need much on your legs. Above about 7 degrees celsius ( 45 degrees fahrenheit ) shorts are appropriate. I love seeing the ride reports from the beautiful States but I notice that people sometimes overdress there.

For outdoor activities, a pair of light wool dress pants can't be beat. Second hand, or even an old pair from a "marrying and burying suit." You don't need to buy any cycling- or sports-specific legwear.

For really cold weather, the most you would need is a pair of long johns with some kind of synthetic layer over. If you get cold, pedal harder. If you start to sweat too much, slow down or rest until you cool to the right level.

Keep cycling and maybe do some resistance/weight training to build up your quads and hamstrings; that will help with most knee problems.

[Anne Paulson]

Can I just request that people not generalize from their own
experience to everyone else's? If *your* core is warm, your
extremities are warm, but that is not true for me, nor is it true for
many other people. If I sit in my tent, in my sleeping bag, using my
iPhone, on a cold night my hands will get cold if I don't wear gloves.
That is why I have those works-with-touchscreen gloves; without them,
my hands get ice cold if I try to read. Even if the temps are in the
40s.

I find the "It works for me so it should work for you too" attitude a
little annoying as well as silly.

-- Anne

--
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Peter Morgano]

Its actually science, but no one ever said you cant argue against science.  Try an Android phone, maybe it will keep your hands warmer.

[Deacon Patrick]

Good point, Anne, though the principle is still at work for you; however, people have different circulation systems and sitting still in a tent is different than a body in motion generating a lot more heat and pumping a lot more volume of blood from the core to the extremities. Also, we acclimatize to where we live, so when warm blooded folks come to the mountains they are freezing. For me, there is a switch in my brain that gets turned off (or on?) when I'm brain fatigued and I can't generate heat at all. Even if it's 80˚F I'm in a sweater and shivering and extremities are freezing. We knew I wasn't doing well on fire evacuation in The Utah desert at 100+˚F and I was comfortable and not sweating at all. Sardonic grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Tim McNamara]

Did you actually mean to say that?  Because, you know, condescending to Anne and also incorrect.  

The notion of "if your core is warm, your extremities are warm" is not scientifically valid.  It's folklore and ignores- for one thing- the science of thermal radiation and- for another- variations in circulatory capacity in the limbs.  You can have a nice warm core and still frostbite your fingers and toes. 

[Anne Paulson]

I kinda wonder about acclimation. I live in sunny California now, but
I grew up in New Jersey, where it sometimes snows in the winter, and I
went to college in Rhode Island, where it tends to be 33 degrees and
raining in the winter. And I never acclimated. I was just always cold
in the winter.

Y'know, when people say they find helmets hot, or they find rainpants
hot when it rains, I don't say "You're wrong! I don't find helmets
hot, so you must not find them hot either. I don't find rainpants hot
in a cold rain, so you must not find them hot either. You're just so
stupid that you don't know what you feel." 'Cause I realize that
different people are different.

[Peter Morgano]

Wow, this is the last I comment on this thread but I don't think anyone called anyone stupid or told them they don't feel how they feel. Seems like you just hyper personalized the issue. If people can't comment on their personal experiences because they might offending someone then it's a pretty sad state of affairs.

[Peter Morgano]

Personally I was listening to this guy, but what does he know?

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/01/15/staying-warm/

[Deacon Patrick]

Hey Tim, it is science, though poorly worded representation of the concept. The scientific principle is that if we are working enough to generate extra heat (more than our core needs), our body releases the warm blood tot he extremities to both warm them up and cool it off so we don't overheat; thus, if we wear enough to keep our core warm we don't need as many layers on the extremities. This is of course relative to every person, their circulation, acclimatization, etc.

Anne, I think some people simply acclimatize better than others. in SUmmer, I need a sweater at 50-60˚F just sitting around (depending on sun), but in winter with those same temps, I'm happy in a t-shirt. Yet I know folks who have never grown used to winter here and, like you, are always cold. Fascinating differences. 

With abandon,

Patrick

[Ron Mc]

base layer, insulation layer, wind block - a dictated by the temps and wind chill.  Just this morning, I purchased a merino wool base layer, top and bottom, plus an extra pair of merino wool boxer briefs for $97 shipped from sierratradingpost.  here was the extra 35% off keycode FNW5634Y good through Monday.  I just searched men merino on the stp website.  

[Ron Mc]

ps - dehydration is the biggest cause of knee pain - if your knee hurts, stop and hydrate

[Deacon Patrick]

"dehydration is the biggest cause of knee pain"

I've never heard this. Could you please elaborate?

With abandon,

Patrick

[clayton bailey]

Thanks Ron for the discount code. I have been riding in cold weather now for 25 years. I have lived most of that time in the mountains, but now live in Bend Oregon. I have not been payin' attention to the newest and coolest technical fabrics. I appreciate your advice on the wool.

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[RJM]

Really?  I would like to hear more about that.

 

I sometimes have terrible knee pain in my left knee but have always chalked it up to the fact I sprained it 15 years ago and it just flares up. If I can find a natural, non-doctor/drug way of alleviating the pain, I would love to.

[Deacon Patrick]

In my personal experience and that of many others eliminating grains, veggie oils, and processed foods eliminated issues of inflammation. Helped a lot of others as well. Also, in my experience, eliminating those from my diet greatly decreased my need for constant water.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Garth]

Sierra Trading Post is a great place to shop indeed. As I do not wear wool, I have found med. weight long underwear bottoms of Comfortel (very soft cotton like polyester with some lycra) to be outstanding. I've worn them for years and am amazed they still have them !! 
They have them in lightweight med. weight and  heavyweight  versions, tall and regular.
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/s~wickers-bottom-men/

Down to about the low 40's , I'll often wear these under my shorts, as they wear just like boxers, only they're full length.

[Philip Williamson]

You know how you argue against science? You present evidence that doesn't support the theory.
And... Actually, that's just More Science.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/06/2013 09:51 AM, Deacon Patrick wrote:
> "dehydration is the biggest cause of knee pain"
>
> I've never heard this. Could you please elaborate?

I was told by an orthopaedist when you're dehydrated your cartilege
shrinks and if it's marginal hey presto, there's your knee pain!

[Patrick Moore]

This remark has nothing to do with winter pants, but it does bear on knee pain.

Ever since my high school days, when I believed that shifting to the smaller ring to climb hills was sissy, I've had a twinge in my left knee after just a bit of torquing a high gear up a hill while seated. (My first complete build, circa 1971, age 15 or 16, had a 50t ring and a 15 t cog.) A month or so ago, during an otherwise very pleasant and scenic gravel ride with 17 miles of climbing outbound (return in less than 1 hour versus the 2 hours oubound!) my left knee complained loud and long. 

It was almost instinctive to force myself to pedal by dropping my heel at the bottom of the stroke; sure enough, I found and continue to find that this goes a considerable way toward keeping the knee pain at bay. (As a fan of fixed gear riding who rides in rolling terrain, I've also learned to stand early, as soon as the slope starts to bog me down while sitting.)

This afternoon, for example, I pushed a 75" gear against a slight headwind and up a very steep 1.3 km, and seasoned things with another 3 miles of more gradual climbing -- always being careful to drop my left heel if I was seated while applying heavy torque. Now, 1 1/2 hour later, when my left knee would in the past be bothering me -- no twinge atall.

Knee covered by Nashbar Nickers at 65*F, too.

[Deacon Patrick]

With midfoot pedaling I have never had a knee twinge. Forefoot pedaling I have. A different way of getting the heel down, same result.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Do you climb in big gears?

I tend to place my at the backs of the slots, but I do use the muscles that operate when you pedal with the foot forward of the arch.

On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com> wrote:

With midfoot pedaling I have never had a knee twinge. Forefoot pedaling I have. A different way of getting the heel down, same result.

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[Deacon Patrick]

I climb big mountains in little gears, a fair amount of the time standing.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Standing is no problem; no knee pain no matter what the gear or slope. But sitting and torquing is the danger. 

I just don't feel comfortable with Arch Over Pedal Spindle; it feels artificial. Note that this has nothing to do with No Retention -- I know of one man, not much my junior, who smokes his full susp, 11 sp peers on steep singletrack with a ss 29er and No Retention. It's arch pedaling that feels bad, to me. Foot on pedal slightly aft of ball of foot, with heel dropped, gives extra power and helps my left knee (my right knee is wholly unbothered by seated, high-torque climbing).

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[Deacon Patrick]

I don't arch pedal, but rear forefoot and outer midfoot pedal, if that makes sense. When I do sit and torque (for rear traction), no knee issues.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

So, perhaps we're much the same -- pedaling just behind the ball of the foot? I find that cleats don't go far enough backward if the bolts have wide heads (as on my Looks).

At any rate, that's what I do.

Anyway, for The Other Person, pedaling behind the ball of foot seems to help at least two people.

[Deacon Patrick]

Here are two good pictures of it:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/10077254556/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/10077255616/

However you'd define that.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

#1 is arch riding --ONONONONO!

#2 -- well, maybe.

But! Use what works for you. No G-D arches for me, but then I prolly don't climb as high as you, anyway.

[hsmitham]

Was just reading this thread and Peter M. Dude you made me laugh Try an Android phone, maybe it will keep your hands warmer. ..what makes that so funny is that it's so true! My Android phone totally runs hot. Now my laughing at this comment does not negate the fact that people are different and generalizations are all false to include this one. Hey it made me laugh that's a wonderful thing.

~Hugh

[Rod Holland]

I've had good luck with Sport Hill 3P XC pants, with a merino wool base layer as needed. Plenty warm enough for tbe worst that Massachusetts winters dish out.

rod

[Peter Morgano]

Wait, that's a personal opinion, not allowed according to list police!  ;-)

On Oct 6, 2013 10:07 PM, "Rod Holland" <rholla...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've had good luck with Sport Hill 3P XC pants, with a merino wool base layer as needed. Plenty warm enough for tbe worst that Massachusetts winters dish out.

rod

[Ron Mc]

Deac I love you man, but altering your diet in the middle of the road is less than effective.  Stopping to drink water is easy - even smart.  

[Deacon Patrick]

I'm not sure what exactly you're responding to Ron, since the quoted text below isn't mine. For me, eliminating grains, veggie oils, sugar, and processed food "mid-road" in my late 30's was highly effective. I dropped nearly 100 pounds, have greater brain energy, and numerous other improvements. And I do drink water, just not nearly as much (over the course of my recent bikepacking trip with Steve, I drank about 1/3 of what he did). You may find the book "Waterlogged" by Dr. Noakes intriguing. http://www.amazon.com/Waterlogged-Serious-Problem-Overhydration-Endurance/dp/145042497X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381156183&sr=8-1&keywords=waterlogged

With abandon,

Patrick

[Ron Mc]

my only point remains - if your knee is hurting in a ride, stop and hydrate

[Deacon Patrick]

I agree, as a short term solution, well worth trying.

With abandon,

Patrick