Anyone order a Joe?

[Christopher Murray]

Looking over the Joe Appaloosa on the Blug and it looks like a great bike. The pre-order price is a great deal. Anyone pull the trigger and order one? I am guessing they won't last long- only 4 55cms left!!!

I missed the Clem but am thinking seriously about this one.

Cheers!
Chris

[Bill Lindsay]

I am THIS close

[William R.]

Everything about the Joe works for me so I went ahead and pulled that trigger on a 55! If I am reading the receipt correctly (there is a 0003 on there) I got the third one or the third 55?

I don't have any problem waiting to March to get it. The little mysteries of the design, color and parts that remain are just fuel on the anticipation fire that will warm me all winter!

Bill (stoked in Westchester, NY)

[Christopher Murray]

I'm officially in. Let the waiting begin!

Cheers!
Chris

[Lynne Cooney]

I want to, but having just bought a Cheviot, I need to not spend another $2k right now. I also know that I have to immediately replace the front wheel -- no dynamo, no deal. And I don't need a triple. I'm basically never going to use the big ring. So the $400 saved is gone.

<here I delete a bunch of other excuses> Yeah, I still want to.

[Daniel D.]

I'm always tempted by a deal and I've been eyeing a riv.  But not digging those handlebars.

[Bill Lindsay]

Yep, I'm the opposite.  I'm usually willing to pay whatever things cost, and don't need another Rivendell, but those handlebars are the draw all on their own.  The fact that a kickass bike comes attached to those irresistible handlebars is gravy. 

[Robert Bolesta]

I've been interested in the Joe since they posted those two prototypes. But, I'd rather build it up myself, and, bummer about the color! Why not that beautiful dark red like the proto? 

I'm really into the Joe, though. I've been dying to own a bike that can take 50s + fenders, and that has lots of eyelets, etc!

[James Warren]

Dark red is what it needs to be.

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[Lynne Cooney]

I'm not a fan of red bikes, but I would prefer orange.

[William R.]

Hey Chris, how did you find out how many 55's were left? Is that posted somewhere or did you talk to Riv? Just wondering because those would be interesting numbers to know. I wonder if Riv would/could extend quantities to, say 20 in certain sizes if 10 sold really fast. I also wonder what would happen if they did not sell 10 in any sizes. How that would effect things.

-Bill (wondering in Westchester, NY)

[David Banzer]

Add a bunch (10 or more) to the cart and it'll let you know how many are in stock.
David
Chicago

[Patrick D Kelly]

I've jumped in. Ordered a 55. The thing that worries me is that my PBH is 87, right on the line between 55 and 58. Any thoughts on if I should try to switch over to size 58? The sizes are so close it probably won't make any real diff except for the single/double top tube (I lean more towards having single TT, but having double wouldn't be horrible). It's not like the difference between a medium clem and large clem. :) But I'm still worried that the 58 would be the better size.

This will be my first rivbike. I've lusted after them for years, and seriously contemplated both the hunqapillar and the sam hillborne. When the Joe showed up, I recognized it as the one made for me. Even though I shouldn't be buying another bike right now, I couldn't let it go by. I promised myself I'd sell some other bike stuff ASAP.

[R Michaels]

Not sure what the 0003 is because I ordered (a 55) on the 28th and my receipt has the same number.  I,m plenty stoked as well as it will be my first Rivendell.  Looking forward to seeing the color and other specifics.  

R.

[R Michaels]

At first I wasn't sure about the bars but warmed to them very quickly and hope they will work out OK as I did order a 55.  I don't think the 0003 number on the receipt has to do with who ordered in order because my receipt also has the 0003 on it and I ordered on the 28th.

R.

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 3:42:09 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:

[William R.]

Ah, I see, thanks David!

[Chris Lampe 2]

Wow, I read the blog post and stats on the Appaloosa and rendered it in BikeCad and it just didn't do anything for me, at all.  But I somehow missed the proto-Appaloosa linked here and if the only major difference is the fork and longer chainstays, then I'm liking this a lot.  They would have to eventually offer it as a frameset for me to even consider it, though. 

[William R.]

Hey Patrick, I'm in the same boat as you, I'm an 87 pbh and I ordered the 55. I don't doubt my choice though. I don't think you can go wrong either way but I've got my reason for going with the 55. In the not too distant past I was a big frame guy. I went with two 60cm Sams. An orange canti brake version, and later a blue, double tt, silver side pull version. Barely a fist of seat post showing on those babies! And they rode like caddies! I could do things no hands on those bikes that no sane person should do! I miss that orange Sam the most. I still have and will keep my big 60cm VO Polyvalent. I'm not expecting the 55 Joe to behave drastically different than the 60 Sam's or the 58 Joe. Just perhaps a little more nimble. I am sure that when I first get it I will ride it everywhere but I'm really getting it to fill the mixed terrain/dirt road/trail rider role. A few blug posts back was the 54cm Hunqapillar 1x11 that Mark built. I thought that would have worked great for me too. Not too small. The price tag would have been almost twice what this deal on the Joe is and I think the 55 will do just fine in that role. If you are unsure of your choice just give them a call. They will point out all of the pros and cons (if any) of choosing one size or the other.

best,

-Bill

[Daniel D.]

Should we read anything into the Joe's page listing testimonials about the hillborne? :p

[comveo]

Hey Patrick,

I'll chime in since I first had a 58cm Hunqapillar, then sized up to a 62. I too am on the line between sizes. You're looking at a slightly smaller jump from 55cm to 58cm with the Appaloosa. In my case the smaller size required just too much post and stem protrusion to be practical for the mostly upright riding I'm doing. Now, since the frame comes up to "meet me" more on the larger bike, I feel like I have much more flexibility with bar choice and height, minus maybe drop bars..haven't tried them, just Bullmoose flat MTB and Albatross. With the Choco-Moose on the Joe, bigger should not be a problem. And if you ride with normal shoes, you'll likely have about an inch between the bike and your body(mid-top tube) with the largest tires possible on the Joe. If you plan on having every bar choice out there and don't mind a bit of post, stick with the 55cm, though for the bars the bike comes with the larger may indeed feel more "horse"-like.I'm glad I went bigger after being able to try both Hunqs. Food for thought and I'd love to hear your feedback either way when yours arrives. Psyched on this bike! : )

-Bryan

[Daniel Jackson]

Bryan,

What is your PBH and your height?

Thanks,

D.

[Bill Lindsay]

By that method (overloading your cart with >10 in every size), it looks like that as of Nov 1 2015, people have pre-ordered

Zero -  46cm
2 - 51cm
6 - 55cm
3 - 58cm
1 - 62cm

If they really need to limit the first run to 50 (for whatever reason), it seems they'd be a lot better off building a lot fewer of the tiny ones, and a lot more of the medium sized ones. 

Like maybe

46cm - 3
51cm - 8
55cm - 20
58cm - 12
62cm - 7

[comveo]

Hey Daniel,

I'm 6'2" and my PBH is 91cm w/o shoes. Hope this helps.

[Philip Kim]

I may be wrong, but isn't that why they are pre-ordering? To give the manufactures exact number so they don't get leftover sizing?

[Shoji Takahashi]

I think it's more of a cash flow thing. Manufacturers probably want to set up once (for each size) to cut tubes, set up jigs, weld, and be done with 'em. Each time they change to a different size/spec, there's time lost. 

Riv will probably be fine with a few unsold frames-- but paying for all the frames upfront is tough to manage. 

(I think the Clem situation of selling all the pre-sale frames was unusual, and not really expected. Goes to show the demand for a well-thought bike at a nice price point.)

Hope Riv sells out of these, too. I'd love to have one, but the overlap with my Rivs and own cashflow means I'll probably pass for now.

happy riding,

shoji

[Philip Kim]

Ahh, that makes sense. I didn't think about the manufacturing logistics. The Joe looks like a great bike too, I recently sold my Hillborne frameset, because I wanted something with more clearance. Cant afford to plunk down $2100 for a preorder even if it's a great deal. Once/if frameset comes along, I will definitely pounce on it.

[Bill Lindsay]

...and, it's official.  I just hung up with Vince and paid for a 55cm Joe Appaloosa.  I. Am. STOKED!

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 7:01:47 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

I am THIS close

 

[sameness]

If your Atlantis needs a new home as a result, I might know a guy in Southern California, he could help you out.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

[Bill Lindsay]

Thank you Jeff, but the Atlantis' position in my stable is secure.  The one I can most live without now is my Gunnar singlespeed.  

[Patrick D Kelly]

My assumption was that the pre-orders get the cash together so they can make the order. Since they have a "full retail" price published, I expect/hope they'll have more frames made than just the 50. There will be people who just want a bare frame (and I'd hope they can get one). They'll just not get a discounted/pre-order price. It may be that riv doesn't even need all 50 pre-orders to get the ball rolling.

In terms of ordering fewer of some sizes and more of others, I would not be surprised if they're ordering a minimum run of each size. So, to avoid the problem of smaller frames costing a lot more than medium frames, they just order the same number and plan to take longer to sell them. 

[Christopher Murray]

Bill,

I assume you saw the bike and fork crown? What pushed you over? Did you take it for a test ride? Would love to hear your impressions.

Thanks!
Chris

[Bill Lindsay]

I've just seen the photos of the bike and fork crown.  I've ridden a few different long chainstay prototypes at RBWHQ, but not the one pictured on the BLUG.  I knew I'd be in on a long-stay bike sooner or later.  Those bikes are for being happy.  I like being happy, so I had to get one.  Folks who don't remember how to smile on a bike tend to frown at the Appaloosa for one reason or another.  I can't ride one of the recent Riv "cruisers" without smiling, and the Appaloosa I can't even look at without smiling.  

Three things pushed me over.  First the handlebar is too rad for words.  Second, I think the decal artwork is fantastic, to go with an already awesome headbadge.  Third, the fact that they are going to be sold out on pre-sale 55s pretty quick.  I figured I could be one of the self-congratulators or one of the kicking-my-self-ers. 

Bill

[Ryan Fleming]

This is probably a silly question but those bolts on the fork crown...are they there for mounting some of those front racks? I'm sure they're there for a reason and I can't think what else it would be

[Philip Kim]

My guess is to bolt marks rack to the front. I think since these specced with V brakes, the Nitto 32 mini front rack wasn't going to clear the brakes to have a connection into the fork crown.

[Dave Johnston]

The Blug now shows a Nitto 32 front rack mounted at the crown and the mid-fork eyelets.

Direct link to picture:
http://40.media.tumblr.com/6b00eb375fb3d51e43cb026c16b24a91/tumblr_nwy5tsXN3B1qe3ngpo9_r1_540.jpg


-Dave J

[Philip Kim]

nvm...

[BSWP]

The fork crown has no bolts. There are some threaded holes which could accept bolts, to aid in the securing of a front rack, or other things one might dream up that need fixing to the crown.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[David Banzer]

The prototype - as seen with a 32F rack - does not have the production fork crown. The production fork crown for the Appaloosa will have mounts on top of the fork crown.
David
Chicago

[David Johnston]

But the Production Crown does have a center bolt hole that could be
used for fender mounting and maybe a 32F rack if the clearances of
the V brake straddle work out just right. I think the 32F is more
elegant than the Marks rack, and has fewer bolts to get loose.

-Dave

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[William R.]

Ok... so after a week or so of thinking it over, measuring myself and measuring again. Realizing I'm really an 88 pbh. Fretting over choosing a 55 and knowing that I really want a Riv designed by Grant to ride like a Riv. On many surfaces, many distances, many different kinds of loads and lack of. After all those thoughts I got in touch with Grant and he confirmed what I was thinking (and I confirmed that previously I wasn't thinking!) that the 58 Appaloosa will be the right size for me. Dave changed my order and I'm now getting a 58 Appaloosa! Sorry to the group for stating my case with such conviction and then changing my mind. I hope I didn't cause anyone to make similar sizing decisions. Good news is there seems to be a little time to change minds!

Bill in Westchester, NY

[Patrick Kelly]

I'm planning to go by riv HQ and try out diff sizes, recheck my PBH
and make sure I've got it right. I'm one who's currently ordered a 55
but thinking maybe I should be on 58. I did exchange emails with Brian
@ riv, and that sort of reassured me that I probably have the right
choice. Either way, I expect an in-person consult will settle things.

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[Surlyprof]

Does anyone know if they have JA prototypes at HQ?  Was thinking about heading up there to check it out.

John

[ted]

Thinking of heading up there today myself. Given the blug and presale photos I assume they have at least one prototype JA there, though I don't think the prototypes have the fork crown and long chainstays that the production ones will have.

[William R.]

I envy you folks that live within visiting range of Riv. If any one goes to test ride that proto-Appaloosa, it would be great to hear your thoughts on it. You could probably test Sams for size and Cheviots for the long chain stay ride quality and get a good feel for it that way too. Any additional info they gave you would certainly be welcome here.

Bill in Westchester, NY

[Surlyprof]

Ted,

Did you make it up to Riv HQ to try the Joe?  Anything to report?

[ted]

Sorry for the slow response, but I was out riding most of the day Sat. and recovering the rest of it. I did make it up to RBW WHQ friday, but I didn't ride the Joe so not much to report. It looked very nice and quite Sam H like to me, except for the canti-post brakes. Of course it doesn't have the new fork crown, and I think the stays on the production frames will be longer so... The bars seem very cool. They bend foreword a bit before sweeping back which I had not picked up from the pictures.

I hope you were able to go yourself on Sat. 

[David Banzer]

I thought the bar looked like it had a little forward bend, and a slight drop. Does that seem right? Makes me think it was part of Grant's experimentation with a flipped Albatross bar over the summer, as seen in this Blug post: http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/125363801684/fun-wfriction-and-scroll-down-one-post-for-the
David
Chicago

[Patrick Kelly]

I made it to riv HQ yesterday, and I did see the prototype. It's a 52.

I was there to double check my size. I got a new PBH measurement of 86
instead of 87. I suspect I rounded up last time. I stood over a size
58 hillborne, and while it's theoretically possible for me, I'm
convinced it's too big for me. My original order of a 55 was correct.

The most entertaining part of the day was chatting with Grant about
the prototype. Apparently he was thinking it was a size 55 because
somebody else (don't remember who) that would normally ride a size 55
(same as Grant) had been riding it around a lot. Grant had been
puzzled because he felt that when he rode it, it was too small. After
measuring it and checking the actual size (to answer my "that's a size
52, right?" question), it all came clear to him that it was in fact
too small for him, because it's actually a size 52, and not a 55.

I rode an atlantis, the 1x9 hunqapillar, a clem and a large cheviot
(the medium was over at BBH). I spent most of my ride time on the 55
sam hillborne with albatross bars. I'm not one to notice subtleties of
bicycle behavior, so I cannot really say anything about any of them vs
the others. They all ride like bikes to me. :) I can confirm that I
still don't like drop bars (mostly because of the brakes) and that I
was less excited about the bullmoose bar than I thought I would be.
Riding with the albatross bars, I'm thinking that I may actually be
very happy with the new bar on the joe appaloosa. If not, I'll
probably figure out how to put my jones h-bar on it, instead.

I was hoping to get more/better photos of the new bar, but Grant took
it out for a long ride. The shape of the new bar is a bit more
complicated than is obvious in the photos posted so far, and yes, it
has a slight drop. It looks really good to me. I was hoping to take it
for a short ride, even though it's the wrong size, just to check out
the bars, but that didn't happen.

[Daniel D.]

Hmmm just my size, might have to drop by. Maybe a little ride will change my mind.

[iamkeith]

Oh great.  I was able to ignore this when they were just going to be blue... but butterscotch is a different story altogether.  My all-time favorite Rivendell color.   Quick - talk some sense into my head!  I mean, there's no possible way I could rationalize the redundancy of this, on top of:

1.  A 26"  All-Rounder with moustache bars & super-fat compass road tires, used as a daily rider, but with a set of racks for extended touring

2.  A 700c Rambouillet with noodle drops and jack browns, for quicker road rides, long randonneur-type rides and credit card tours.

3.  A new Clem Smith with long chainstays and super-fat knobby tires, for (presumably) town crawling and off-road touring 

4.  An old hakkaluggi cyclocross bike with knobby tires, for faster off-road rides.

I've got every possible base covered, right?  I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa.   I do NOT need an Appaloosa....   

[Mark in Beacon]

Yeah, but are any of those other ones butterscotch? That is a seriously really really nice color for an Appaloosa. I've used the color category once or twice to justify an n + 1. Just sayin'.

[Bill Lindsay]

I might actually literally faint.  A butterscotch Rivendell is a bucket list item for me.  I already ordered a Joe and was resigned to it being a nice blue.  Now the thought that I can choose my Joe to be butterscotch....just...give me a moment......

[Christopher Murray]

I like both colors but if I get to choose I don't think it is much of a choice. Butterscotch Rivs are amazing!

Super excited,
Chris

[Jim Bronson]

They should rename this group the Rivendell Buyers Club.

[Lynne Cooney]

I was chanting a similar "I do not need a Twenty" the other day. Also "I do not need an Appaloosa" and "I do not need an Atlantis."

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 7:47:32 PM UTC-8, iamkeith wrote:

[Lungimsam]

The canti-bility makes it interesting to me as I will only buy a cantibrake bike for me next bike if I have a say about it.

But the first pic I saw makes the st look short. Are these intended to be shortie seat tube bikes or is it just the pic making it look that way?

[William R.]

Oh yes, very happy to see that butterscotch! That will be my choice! And to all of you out there thinking about it, give in to Rivs eternal scales of decision where on one hand there are needs and on the other reside wants!

Bill in Westchester, NY

[Philip Kim]

when they said blue like our sam, i was not into it. butterscotch is nice, but even the sky blue is a nice color.

[David Johnston]

the 4" of the butterscotch doesn't look very good in the picture. Does
it look better in person or as a whole bike? anybody have an example
picture? I would prefer that Proto silver myself.

-Dave

On 11/20/15, Philip Kim <phili...@gmail.com> wrote:
> when they said blue like our sam, i was not into it. butterscotch is nice,
> but even the sky blue is a nice color.
>

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[iamkeith]

Here are a couple of examples in the cyclofiend gallery.  Or just do a google search for "butterscotch saluki":

http://cyclofiend.com/cc/2007/cc265-frankfulton0307.html

http://cyclofiend.com/cc/2009/cc681-johnferguson0909.html

[iamkeith]

I probably just need to join the chorus of voices begging for a frameset-only (and handlebar!)  option.   Even if i can't justify buying a redundant bike, I could sure rationalize buying a dream frame to have on hand as a spare for if-and-when one of my other bikes finally gives up the ghost.  

I kind of wish this project wouldn't have happened quite as soon as it did.   There's still a good chance that my Clem isn't going to fit well enough, and this would have been a good backup plan substitute for that one.  There's just no way to know, until summer comes or unless I travel to some other climate. 

MEANWHILE, I suppose a butterscotch appaloosa could make a good christmas and birthday present for my wife. Who better to tour with?!.  She has a beat-up XO-1, but my daughter has sort of adopted it.  Has anybody here been between the 46 and 51 sizes, and decided to order one or the other?  If so, what factors influenced your decision?  The specified bb drop still throws me for a loop, when comparing it to known entities.   

[Bill Lindsay]

"The specified bb drop still throws me for a loop, when comparing it to known entities."

Can you elaborate how the BB drop of the Appaloosa throws you for a loop?  

A 559 wheeled Appaloosa has 55mm of drop, vs 57mm for a Clem and 55 for a 559 Hunqapillar  

A 584 wheeled Appaloosa has 68.9mm of drop, vs 67 for a 584 wheeled Hilsen or 67 for a Clem

A 622 wheeled Appaloosa has 78mm of drop vs 80mm or a 622 Atlantis or Hunqa or Hilsen

Which of those 0-2mm differences have thrown you for a loop and why?  On a bike that I could run 38mm tires or 50mm tires, I think 2mm amounts to absolutely nothing.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Mark in Beacon]

Always hard to judge this stuff on a computer monitor, but the butterscotch Salukis look a lot more orange than the sample on the blug at the moment (which I prefer. But I am out of the market after the Clementine arrives. Because less is more. Less is more.)

As far as buying just frames, it looks like the company is going in the opposite direction, with Sams available as completes only in spring, and possibly the same for Cheviots in Dec. '16.

[R Michaels]

Wouldn't it be nice if the butterscotch came with the cream color head tube.  Now that's a nice look.  Have to wait and see.

[Christopher Murray]

It does say cream details but I wonder is that is the head tube or just the fork?

Chris

[Mark in Beacon]

The prototype silver has a cream head tube, so I would hazard a guess.

[iamkeith]

You're probably right that I'm making mountains out of millimeters.   I guess what I'm having trouble with is wrapping my mind around how the bike is intended to be best utilized, working from the BB drop as a cue.  Bear in mind that I'm the guy who will always use the biggest tire a bike can fit.  The comparisons you list pretty much make sense because it follows that, all other things being equal,  a bike with a slightly taller tire should require a slightly lower bottom bracket.   Since those other models are more mountain/rough-stuff bike than road bike, this would suggest that the Appaloosa would work well the same way, and would have a comparable fit and ride quality for a given size.   In the case of my wife though, the "known entity" is actually a much more road-oriented 559 Rambouillet, which happens to have the same 55mm drop as the Appaloosa... but is intended to be used with a tire that is a full inch smaller!  So compared to that bike, using the biggest tire is going to effectively raise the bottom bracket by quite a bit, affect the standover clearance without affecting the actual fit, and maybe even have a different ride quality due to a higher center of gravity.  So coming from the road side kind of gives a different result - or at least a different frame of reference - than coming from the mountain side.   

My wife's rambouillet is a 50.  She thinks it fits fine but, if I could do it again, I'd put her on a 52.  (Her stem is extended really high, she has more than a fistfull of seatpost, and has at least an inch and a half of standover clearance.    Judging from standover alone, I'm working from the goal of putting  her on the biggest frame possible.  Even with 2 1/4" tires, the 46 Appaloosa would probably still feel smaller than the 50 rambouillet with 1 1/4" tires, right?   The 51 Appaloosa would probably fit just perfect with 1 1/4" tires, but could be too big with 2 1/4" tires. 

Basically, it's just hard to decide because there's no apples-to-apples comparison to what she already has.

[Mark in Beacon]

A 51 Appaloosa with 1.75" tires sounds like a possible solution.  Even though you are the kind of guy who puts on the biggest tires possible, I assume with a current 50cm frame, your wife may be somewhat smaller than you, and can do with proportionally less tire volume to achieve similar results. So gaining a half inch in tire width over the current Ram could be plenty. Room left for fenders, & maybe a spare set of wheels with bigger rubber.

[Steve Palincsar]

But if you had done, she'd have only a half inch of standover clearance
and would have 1 cm longer of a top tube. For some, that simply
wouldn't work.

[Bill Lindsay]

OK, so since your small roadish 559 wheeled Rambouillet has 55mm of drop, then all other Rivendells with 559 wheels throw you for a loop, because all of those bikes take wider tires and all of them have 55-57mm of drop?  I'm with Grant that fit is about how your body fits in relation to the bike when you are riding.  BB drop effects how my body fits in relation to the bike.  BB drop is about fit.  Tire size changes standover, to be sure, but tire size does not affect fit, in my opinion.  BB height is about clearances: your pedals striking the ground, and your crotch to the top tube.  These are clearance issues, not fit issues, in my opinion. 

I know about the "on the bike" vs "in the bike" feel.  That handling feel is about how the rider's body is positioned relative to the bike while riding, in my opinion.  It is not about how your center of mass is positioned above the ground, in my opinion.  Jan Heine and Grant are the two who folks on this group tend to respect the most.  Jan thinks BB height and BB drop don't matter at all.  Grant thinks BB drop should be as low as practically possible for the minimum tire width, and that you shouldn't get too hung up about standover. 

More directly to the point.  Have you ever seen a 559-wheeled frame with more that 57mm of drop?  The Surly Long Haul Trucker 26", a dedicated touring bike, has only 47mm of drop.  Maybe Alex Wetmore's Travel Gifford with 26" wheels might have more drop, and the category that has inspired: the All-Road Enduro, may evolve with 65-70mm of drop and will only work with Rat Trap Pass tires.  But I don't know of anything off the shelf that will do that for you. 

[iamkeith]

I guess I get that explanation.  And that would probably suggest that the 46 might be the best choice.  The on-the-bike fit would feel familiar, even though the seatpost would be extended a lot further than I currently perceive as "correct," and she'd be higher in the air (the whole point of doing this would be specifically to get her on significantly fatter tires, so she can carry more and ride more comfortably on rougher roads), and there would also be way more standover clearance than she needs. Hopefully, the sloped top tube would yield a higher headtube than the 50 Ram, so that her stem could even extend a little less.  The 51, on the other hand, might not give her enough standover clearance.  Since there are (intentionally?) no standover heights listed, its hard to know for sure.  You guys who can test-ride are fortunate.

I guess, now that you point out the error of my thinking, what I'm really still having trouble with is trying to relate the new limited/expanded sizing system to the old system that had more increments and, in this case, looking incorrectly to the bottom bracket drop and standover height for explanations as to why they fit so differently.  That's been hard enough to understand even for me, but even harder trying to speculate on her behalf since she doesn't think about this stuff enough to be able to articulate what works and what doesn't.  

I've long felt like I had a good handle on what her next Rivendell would be, based on this current bike that fits fairly well, combined with the thought that I could ratchet it UP one more small increment.   But I probably just need to let go of those preconceptions.  Not unlike my old WTB phoenix which, numerically, is 3" or more smaller than would fit me on any other bike of the era but actually works great, maybe the way to properly size a Rivendell nowadays is NOT to get the biggest frame you can straddle.

[Bill Lindsay]

I guess I would start off with stating the obvious that small bikes with large tires are incredibly difficult to design and fit.  That's a fact.  But I'm not suggesting anything about which size Appaloosa you should buy your wife.  I only wanted to bottom out on what about the BB drop had thrown you for a loop.  It sounds like it would be useful to draw your four bikes all on top of each other on a big piece of paper. 

1.  Rambouillet
2.  XO-1
3.  46 Appa
4.  51 Appa

Grant did a great step by step frame drawing exercise on the predecessor of the BLUG.  Maybe somebody has it archived.  That would be a great exercise for you to walk through, possibly.  Otherwise, if you are eager to buy an Appaloosa on the pre-sale, then at least talk it over with Riv.  Let me know if you want help drawing your bikes. 

Bill

[Patrick Kelly]

I went back to riv HQ today to try out the proto-joe. It's officially
a size too small for me, but it was fun to ride around. I took a bunch
of photos of the new bar, hoping to better show the shape. (All
uploaded, unedited, link below.) For myself, I expect I'll be mounting
the shifters and brakes further forward, and I'm not superkeen on the
grips. The bar tape was added last weekend by Grant.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/phlatphrog/albums/72157661494430745

I forgot to ask about the butterscotch/sky blue color samples. I
wanted to view them in person, but I completely forgot when I was at
the shop. Duh.

cheerios

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[jeffrey kane]

Patrick, nice work on the HB pics -- now I really can't wait to get my hands on one.

[William R.]

Thanks for posting these pics Patrick. This is the best look at the Choco Moose bar yet. It looks like Grant put a lot of thought into providing a really comfortable pocket grip area forward of the levers. I will echo the sentiment that I am looking more and more forward to getting my hands on this bar and the whole bike! In the mean time I'm getting ready to head out on any early morning ride on my Soma GR which I am using as a test bed for tires for the Joe Appaloosa. As much as I can at least. Last night I swapped out the Switchback Hills for 50mm wide Schwalbe Big Bens. Trying to decide if Marathon Almotions that come 55mm width will be candidates for the Joe.

Bill in drizzly but clearing Westchester, NY

[Bill Lindsay]

Keith

I went ahead and drew a 50cm Rambouillet, with a 46 Appaloosa and a 51 Appaloosa on top of it.  The three drawings all have ground zero at the center of the BB.  I can send you pictures, but photos of pencil on white paper don't show up all that well.  At any rate, I can tell you standover height now. 

With identical 310mm radius tires (26x1.25), the standover of the 46 Appaloosa is about 3cm lower at the back of the top tube.  At the front of the top tube, the 46 Appaloosa is about 1.2cm lower.  At the middle of the top tube, the Appaloosa is about 2.1cm lower. 

If you put 25mm larger tires on the 46 Appaloosa, then at the back of the top tube, the 46 Appaloosa would still be about 5mm lower.  At the front of the TT, the Appaloosa would be about 1.3cm higher than the Ram.  At the middle of the top tube, the 46cm Appaloosa would be about 4mm higher.

The insertion point for the handlebars also differ somewhat.  The insertion point for the handlebar stem on the Appaloosa is about 2.4cm farther away, and about 1.2cm lower, relative to the Ram.  So, if your handlebars have a lot more rise and also have a lot more sweep back (like the choco-moose bars) then the rider will still be significantly more upright on the bike than on the Ram.  You would almost certainly not run drop bars on the 46 Appaloosa.  It's too low and too far away.  The bike is ideal for swept back handlebars. 

I didn't finish the 51 Appaloosa because it's quite a bit bigger.  It will be about 5cm taller everywhere along its Top Tube than the 46 will be.  So, if your wife has more than 2" of standover clearance, and is willing to sacrifice a full 2", then consider the 51.  I haven't seen her Ram setup, but it sounds to me like the 51 will be quite a bit too big.  The 46 will have a full 35mm MORE seatpost showing than the Ram does, which you've said bums you out. 

Bill

[David Person]

Well, now I know where Riv got the idea for the two colors to be offered.

David P.

[BSWP]

Those are Choco-staches, if you ask me. Just a further iteration on the 'stache bars. And nothing wrong with that, at all. I bet they would be comfy with road levers up at the curves, and/or some interruptors close in to the center.

Still on Joe, were frame specs ever posted up? I'm wondering what the chainstay length is, and the wheelbase on a 62cm frame. Thanks! Just curious, as I've been riding my QuickBeam with 45.5 cm from center of BB to center of rear axle, and it rides superbly.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Bill Lindsay]

Andrew

There is a geo chart on the BLUG.  Is your Quickbeam a 62?  If so, you'll probably want to look at the 58 Appaloosa.  If your Quickbeam is a 66, then the 62 Appaloosa is probably your thing.  If your QB is in-between (64?) then you might be....um...in-between.  At any rate, both will have tremendously long chainstays.  The 58 will have 53cm chainstays.  The 62 will have 53.5cm chainstays.  

[Tim Gavin]

On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 5:43 PM, BSWP <asht...@gmail.com> wrote:

Those are Choco-staches, if you ask me. Just a further iteration on the 'stache bars. And nothing wrong with that, at all. I bet they would be comfy with road levers up at the curves, and/or some interruptors close in to the center.

I agree.  

​

Pardon my lousy photochop.

[Kainalu]

About mountain style levers and interrupters, is there such a thing as an "aero" mountain brake lever, specifically one where the housing run goes under the bar tape? I've looked, and they don't appear to exist. I think the albastache looks like a great bar, and these ones even better (especially since they take a mountain lever, which I prefer), but with the albastache I'm left wondering if I could reconfigure it to use the mountain levers on the back end of the sweep and also have that forward mounted lever like everyone seems to love on theirs. It just seems that the brake cables would be problematic between the two levers, in the sense that they'd be in the way of otherwise comfy fingers.
-Kai
Brooklyn NY

[Tim Gavin]

Kai-

I was thinking about that as I chopped that picture together (where would the cable housings go?).

You're correct that MTB levers leave the cable about an inch from the bar.  I've never seen a flat-bar lever that has the cable exit along the bar.

In order to use interrupters with MTB levers, it looks like you'd have to leave the cable housing exposed, and try to keep it offset from the grip area.  Perhaps a spacer/standoff near the interrupter levers?

Tim

[EGNolan]

You COULD use the bar-end "aero" brake levers like this: http://www.jensonusa.com/!1S-OnkIcQoZUhqOqYmFDTw!/Tektro-RX-41-Reverse-Brake-Levers?utm_source=FRGL&utm_medium=organic&gclid=Cj0KEQiAj8uyBRDawI3XhYqOy4gBEiQAl8BJbWK15LEHPFsxh4qEak1Upkb3EOetXzHeyCVProE1jAIaAj9v8P8HAQ but they ain't mountain levers.

Best,

Eric

Indpls

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Inverse levers should work.  VO currently has Tektro modern-looking ones:  http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/levers/tektro-rx4-1-silver-inverse-brake-levers.html

  They also have more vintage looking Dia-Compe versions, here:  http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/levers/dia-compe-inverse-brake-levers-22-2.html

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[Allingham II, Thomas J]

The Tektros come only in 23.8 diameter.  The Dia-Compes come in both 23.8 and 22.2 (trad MTB).  But the Dia-Compes won't pull enough cable for V-brakes (if that's what you're contemplating on your Joe App).  Paul used to make an inverse lever that would pull enough for V-brakes, which you might find somewhere, but my recollection is that they were 23.8mm.

 

So maybe the inverse levers wouldn't work.

[R Michaels]

I'm fairly new to this but have been unable to find the Choco-stache bars you are referring to.  Where can I find them?

R.

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 3:43:28 PM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:

[iamkeith]

Wow, Bill! That was very nice of you, and much appreciated.   If you want to try to send me a snapshot of the sketches through PM, that would be great.  I probably should have done this myself, and maybe still will - now that you've made me feel lazy and inadequate.   In the meantime,  I'll take some time and consider the implications of the numbers you came up with.    

Here's an elevation shot of my wife's 50cm Ram.   Included more for others who might be now or someday be following this conversation with the same questions and decision to make, than for you.  Saddle height = 67.33cm, using 170mm cranks.  She rides mostly on the top of the bars.  The PBH I have recorded for her is 75.5cm but, based on this saddle height which was set after lots of riding time and experimentation, it seems like it should be more like 78cm.  Not sure how I'd re-measure that without giving away a surprise.  Hmmm....

[iamkeith]

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, R Michaels wrote:

I'm fairly new to this but have been unable to find the Choco-stache bars you are referring to.  Where can I find them?

R.

As far as I know, the 'new' Joe Appaloosa prototype, and the photos circulating of it here and from Riv, are the only place you'll currently find it.   Unless I missed something, they even managed to keep this secret up until the Blug pre-sale announcement.   Many of us are hoping that they'll be available separately some day, but I doubt that will be before the complete bikes arrive.   Total speculation here, but I also assume that the separate ones will be fillet brazed with the Nitto dull-brite finish, while the complete ones will be tig welded  - much like the difference between the regular and Clem boscos.  I'm HOPING that there will be alternative widths, too.

[Kainalu]

Somewhere in my digital photo morass there's a photo of albatross bars set up with the bar end style reverse levers and interrupters. I hated it. Thinking back on it, it wasn't the reverse levers that bugged me, it was how the interrupters sat on the curves. Tektro needs to make a drop bar style lever with a mountain sized clamp that can interrupt the brake line cleanly. Which reminds me of the workaround I had on mind, of using the fancy, can't remember the brand name but it was bought by a company in England, cable puller designed for triathlete aero bars. The one that two brake levers fed into one brake line. Most of you will remember exactly what I'm talking about so help me out... what is it? Anyways, that could be used to make a nice and tidy double braked wonderbar out of this choco/alba/mustache/megamoose
-Kai
Brooklyn NY

[Kainalu]

http://problemsolversbike.com/products/cable_doubler
There's a two to one and a one to two. This isn't the one I was looking at but that one was expensive and unavailable, this one's probably cheap and available. Problem solved...
-Kai
Brooklyn NY

[James Warren]

Do we know the crank lengths on the forthcoming Appaloosas? Is it possible they'll be slightly longer, and that's what's bringing the BB up a few millimeters - frame designed with longer cranks in mind?

-James

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[jeffrey kane]

Personally, I wish the Albastache bars had been made available with a mtb lever compatibility option (like an Albatross). I've long wished the Alba's had less rise. The shapes are similar ... but a 'stache that takes an mtb lever would provide an option with half the rise (or drop if you chose to flip it). That's kind of what the Choco-whatever looks like ... and kind of what the VO Porteur looks like (they're all within a few mm's either way). But the VO's don't take mtb levers and bar-ends and the Albatross's are a 5mm rise ... So that Choco-thing looks better and better all the time -- but I don't recall anyone specifically confirming that it will take a bar-end shifter pod, yet.

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:51:47 PM UTC-5, Kainalu wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Mercy. I'm crazy about the butterscotch Saluki, but I've never seen one in my size up for sale. I need a butterscotch Joe (for Joe), now I just have to find a way to pay for it. Oy!

[Patrick Kelly]

AFAIK there is a single set in existence on the proto-joe appaloosa at
rivbike HQ. (I suppose there are probably others.)

It's a new bar designed by riv and coming with the new Joe Appaloosa
(complete) bike. The name is revealed in a gif on the tumblr post.

http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/132103060824
http://36.media.tumblr.com/25eef5014454c97ccb7b1be7f526f334/tumblr_nwy5tsXN3B1qe3ngpo2_500.png

I think there is an assumption that *after* the bikes go out, there
might be a way to buy the bar individually. But that may be a while...

[Bill Lindsay]

...and now the Butterscotch Joe is visible on the BLUG.  Now it is confirmed that the headtube is cream.  WINNER.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[drew]

That photo and the knowledge that there will be another with that new fork crown is making me gnaw my fingers apart trying not to buy one. Goodness

[R Michaels]

It's really nice to see that the head tube is painted cream but I am a little disappointed that the butterscotch color looks quite different than the sample that was given earlier.  I do like the lighter looking color much better and am hoping that the lighting of the photo is the reason for the difference.  After saying that, the color is the lesser part of the reason I am getting my first Rivendell.  I'm really looking forward for the delivery.

On Friday, October 30, 2015 at 3:42:09 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:

Looking over the Joe Appaloosa on the Blug and it looks like a great bike. The pre-order price is a great deal. Anyone pull the trigger and order one? I am guessing they won't last long- only 4 55cms left!!!

I missed the Clem but am thinking seriously about this one.

Cheers!
Chris

[jeffrey kane]

Chris -- fear not -- the lovely dudes at Riv often run dark with their digital files.

[William R.]

I'm putting more stock in Rivs outdoor, natural light logshots. This looks like bad fluorescent factory lighting and bad camera-phone. I mean look at the head tube angle compared to the seat tube. On a frame where stated angles are 72 and 71.5. Not a great photo. Don't worry, it's going to be great!

Bill in Westchester, NY