One week without a front derailleur

[Tony DeFilippo]

I finally got curious enough to try removing my front shifting and trying to go just my center 36T front ring w/ my 8 speed rear cassette.  After a full week of commuting and bopping around on my Saluki I'm a fan but there are some things that will need to happen.  Couple observations;

-My commute is very flat anyway, I've been doing it on and off single speed on my XO3 anyway so reducing gears wasn't going to be a problem

-Not having to trim the front derailleur as I shift in the rear is the #1 plus in my books

-As the week went on I made bolder multi cog shifts with my rear shifter (silver friction shifter) which definitely added some pep and interest to my ride

-I'm not sure why it didn't happen till Th-Fri but I started dropping the chain or ghost shifting the front chain off of the 36T... 

I think I liked the benefits enough to pursue fixing the chain slippage... I'm curious what others may have found as the best products as there are plenty out there.  I'm running a Sugino triple crank right now 24-36-46.  I think I'd like to go either;

-single ring chain ring ~40T w/ chainkeeper

-keep the triple, put a ~40T in the middle, replace outer ring w/ chain guard and install a chain guide/stop

-keep the triple as above, jury rig a FD to act as chainkeeper

I'm sure there must be others... any thoughts?

Tony

[Roy Drinkwater]

I seem to remember Grant writing about not having a front derailer (Sheldon Brown spelling) and manually changing the front rings by hand (or something else). My front derailer self-destructed on a long ride so I removed the remanents and shifted the front by using a hex key. It worked well and made me realize that the cogs in the back gave me enough range to ride comfertaly. Try it.

Roy H. Drinkwater
Lititz, PA

[Garth]

I for one do see benefits to a FD. If you are trimming the FD often, it's either not setup correctly or the crankset is inherently wobbly, as in imperfect laterally .  I own 5 Sugino's at the moment and they are all over in that regard.

Using 2 or more rings, you can usually get the best chainline as opposed to one ring stretching out over 8 or 9 gears.  I use 7 sp. FW and do use all 7 cogs with the 36t middle ring, but even then the 1 and 7 cog are a bit of stretch really. Not optimal but it does the job. 8 speeds surely don't make that any less of stretch.

What cogs are you getting the chain slipping off your 36t ring Tony ?  I've never had a chainring drop a chain that was not involved in moving im moving it up or down to another ring. That's a curious issue !

And before you consider a 40t middle ring, just make sure it will clear the stays first !   I don't know the XO3 frame, but my Bomba and I suppose a Hunqa frame you are limited to a 36t middle unless you get a wider BB.

[Tony DeFilippo]

Hey Garth,

Really interesting points!  I do need to look on the middle ring 'T clearance'.  The frame I'm working with is the Saluki for this question though not the XO3.  I've had 4  occurrences over 2 days of the chain coming off the 36T middle;

1. Came off entirely, onto the BB shell

2-3. 'downshifted' to the 24T ring

4. 'upshifted' to the 46T ring

Honestly I don't remember alot of specifics but I was near the high or low rear cog in each of the instances and very often there was some kind of bump or sharp acceleration accompanying the issue.

As for trimming the FD, its not a constant thing. Only when I move the rear chain line 3+ cog's usually... so not a terrible burden but definitely something I notice a couple times a ride.  The lack of the FD has me shifting more boldly through 2-3 rear cogs at a time without having to think about adjusting my FD trim.  This also might be something with the bar ends on drop bars, I'm not used to haveing to work both shifters simultaneously or near simultaneously in that handlebar setup whereas on the alba's or M-bars it was second nature.

Tony

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[Patrick Moore]

I've run 1XNs with no throwing, but on road bikes with tight clusters where most riding is in the middle cogs.

A quick search for chain retention calls up these, among others:

http://www.ecovelo.info/category/product-reviews/page/3/ (scroll down).

Home brew: http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shifters-derailleurs-cranks/1x9-conversion-w-coin-retention-device-406026.html.

This one looks designed for brazed on fd mounts: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ethirteen-xcx-st-direct-mount-chain-retention-top-guide/,

Me, I had problems with the Fargo's chain falling off onto the bb shell when shifting from the middle to the granny; I installed a Jump Stop:

http://n-gear.com/whatis.html. Mine is (still, I suppose; I forgot about it when I switched from a 46/36/24 to a 38/24) attached near the granny; not sure if it can be adjusted outward and upward to protect a "middle" ring.

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   "Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.

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[Eric Platt]

Over the past two years have had occasional chain drop on my 1x9 Hillborne.  Usually over a hard bump.  Figure with the 12-36 in back and a long cage derailleur, it's more likely to happen.  Chain is probably too long, but am too lazy to fix it.

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[Christopher Murray]

Howdy,

I had a great commuter 1x8 bike that I rode for thousands and thousands of miles without ever dropping the chain. Eventually the components wore out, I moved out of town, and the bike resides in my parent's basement. I believe it was 32 chainring with an 11-34. For all practical purposes it was all I needed. I even rode it from Seattle to Boston- and there are some pretty serious hills on that route! When I first built the bike the chain would drop pretty often. I used a Third Eye chain watcher and never ever had a problem. Not only did it work flawlessly but it was incredibly cheap too. Below is the link.

http://m.rei.com/product/670913/third-eye-chain-watcher/?cm_mmc=cse_PLA-_-pla-_-6709130014&mr:trackingCode=6383071B-81F9-DE11-BAE3-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA&mr:device=m&mr:adType=pla&mr:ad=52673753680&mr:keyword=&mr:match=&mr:filter=61471573840&msid=b7SSt4cP_dm%7Cpcrid%7C52673753680%7C

Cheers!
Chris

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

If you're thinking of replacing the first crank, and are willing to throw some money at it, White Industries' ENO or VBC cranks, ENO bash guard chainring may be the ticket. It doesn't come in 40T though.

I have a 1x8 on my Surly commuter with your #2 setup. The crank is a 110/74 triple although I only installed a 35T Surly SS chainring with Sugino chain guard and N-Gear Jump Stop chain guide. After a couple of years of riding, I have not seen a single problem with derailing yet.

[Matthew J]

> White Industries' ENO or VBC cranks, ENO bash guard chainring may be the ticket. It doesn't come in 40T though. 

Wish White would make the Bash Guard equipped Eno with larger rings.  Guess most demand for the White is with the pure MTB set.

TA makes a very lovely silver bash guard (need to order from the English companies to get here in the U.S. - they have a CF version which is easier to get in the U.S.) 130 bcd bash guard.  My city / light tourer has a TA Carmina with a 42 ring on the inside, bash guard outside and 14-34 5 speed freewheel.  Very good range for commuting in Chicago and touring around the upper Midwest.  2 years now with this set up and no dropped chain.  The problem with 130 of course is you can not go below 38 teeth.  Even a 38 would be quite a challenging 1 x set up for off road or mountain camping trips for most.

[Tony DeFilippo]

"Chain is probably too long, but am too lazy to fix it"  - D'oh, thats the sound of my hand smacking my forehead...I never adjusted my chain length when I made the change...  chain falling off = chain to loose.  Thanks Eric!  I'm going to give this a try this evening.  I did make it into work with no chain issue though.

 

Patrick - Thank you for the links, the n-gear 'what-is' page in particular makes alot of sense. 

 

Chris, Benz, Matthew - Looks like I'm in good company with you all in your use of 1xN for general commuting!  Either that N Stop or the third eye is probably in my future.  I think I'm sold on the 1xN setup for myself.  In fact I like it so much I may be going the same route on my wife's city bike as well, she never uses the front shifter anyway but it does sometimes get bumped. 

 

I'll provide some pictures when I get my setup settled out.  Thanks everyone!

 

 

 

 

[Montclair BobbyB]

I don't quite understand what to me seems like a growing aversion to the front derailleur.  Virtually all of my mountain biking friends (except me) seem to be switching to 1x10, swearing it's the greatest innovation since... well since the front derailleur (hah!). If simplicity is what you seek, then fine... run a basic drive train, whether single speed, or a 1 by whatever .  But I seem to be hearing of more people trying to "get along without a front derailleur" as if it's like giving up gluten or dairy (simply because they're hearing from others there may be benefit to it).   Is this more fashion than function?  Are we being lulled by the industry into swapping out our 2x and 3x in favor of a whole new generation of 1x drivetrains?  I'm not into conspiracy theories, but this one (to me) doesn't resonate with the logical side of my brain (I must be getting old or just plain grouchy, I don't know...).

The front derailleur serves a very deliberate (and valuable) purpose: It enables the use of double and triple chainrings, which in turn enables a wider gear range, AND better chain alignment.  So what's the downside of that?  Dropped chains? Poorly trimmed chain / derailleur rub?  These can be caused by several factors, but the front derailleur itself is not one of them.

I have bikes without front derailleurs (by design), and I love them as much as any bike.  But I especially love the versatility and gear range I get from my front-derailleured bikes... Personally... I will be a FD-lover FOR LIFE!

Peace,
BB

[Tony DeFilippo]

Bobby - I'm sure it's a fad that industry has hyped just as I'm sure that the discussion back and forth over the past couple months on this board is what put the idea of experimenting without FD is why I tried it.

 

For me the attraction is simplification, elimination of something that was seldom or never used, and an offshoot of my singlespeed experiment on the XO3... but I also just enjoy tinkering!

[Patrick Moore]

It's easier to shift across your range of gears if you have only a rear cluster and a single ring. Whether that advantage is material depends on the individual rider. I personally like it, though I prefer drivetrains that are "single ring + granny", an oxymoron that is not as moronic as first might appear since it gives you a range on the big ring sufficient for all but the steepest and least ridden hills. (Yes, I do consider the 39 on my Ram as a "granny" -- my small cog is a 16.)

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[Matthew J]

> But I seem to be hearing of more people trying to "get along without a front derailleur" as if it's like giving up gluten or dairy (simply because they're hearing from others there may be benefit to it).   Is this more fashion than 

> function?  Are we being lulled by the industry into swapping out our 2x and 3x in favor of a whole new generation of 1x drivetrains?  I'm not into conspiracy theories, but this one (to me) doesn't resonate with the logical side 

> of my brain (I must be getting old or just plain grouchy, I don't know...). 

I can't speak for the others.  As for me the conversion came during a four day southwest Wisconsin tour a few years back where on the fourth day I noticed I had not shifted to the second ring (I've not had a bike with a triple for a long time) once the entire trip.  It occurred to me if I was not using something it made no sense to have it there in the first place.  Experiments followed.  Now I am happy with my 1x5.

Other than the TA Carmina and chain, my drive trains have always been vintage, so I do not think marketing played a role in my decision.  In many situations, you can go to a 1x set up without buying a new crank.  Find the ring position that gives the best chain line (inner for me with the 130, I am assuming middle for triples but may be wrong as I have not tried personally) and go from there.  

[Jeremy Till]

One more thing that hasn't been mentioned yet: 1x drivetrains are generally more successful with "singlespeed" chainrings (assuming they are still 3/32" chain width).  Stock multi gear chainrings are designed to not hold the chain very tightly to aid shifting, esp. with indexed front shifting.  They have shorter teeth and shift "gates" (super short teeth specifically designed to drop the chain).  Pre-index front chainrings and singlespeed chainrings have uniformly tall teeth and are much better at holding onto a chain without the aid of a front derailleur or chain guide device.  Not foolproof, but better. 

My favorite are the Surly stainless steel rings, although I should say I've never actually run a 1x setup with them.  Only fixed gear, and more recently I replaced the middle ring of my sugino triple with one.  It shifts great with a friction front shifter.  The surly rings come in a variety of sizes/bcd's including 110mm. 

On Sunday, June 15, 2014 5:12:45 AM UTC-7, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

[Anton Tutter]

I never really thought much about this, but it makes perfect sense.  Good to know... and it explains why on two separate conversions to 1xN derailleur drivetrains using pre-indexed chainrings, I've not ever had a single chain drop.

Anton

ridingthecatskills.com

[Bill Lindsay]

I see what you mean Bobby.  Maybe the next one will be people celebrating:  "I've managed to survive without a rear brake!  Yay!"

The one time I was heavily into a 1x6 drivetrain was my college commute bike.  It was the late 1980s, and I was a poor shop mechanic.  I did everything I possibly could to my commute bike that was A. free and B. made my bike lighter.  One incarnation build around a mid 1980s Cannondale briefly dipped below 16lbs.  The next incarnatioon, built up  in grad school, was built around a Vitus Carbone, and that one was in the 14.5lb range.  

[Jim Bronson]

Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 9:26 AM, Montclair BobbyB <montcla...@gmail.com> wrote:

But I seem to be hearing of more people trying to "get along without a front derailleur" as if it's like giving up gluten or dairy (simply because they're hearing from others there may be benefit to it).   Is this more fashion than function?  out.

I am interested in the concept but I don't think it's fully baked at this point in time if people are having the chain jump off when they are using the gears at the edge of the cassettes.  I'd also like to use SRAM's setup with the big 42 bailout gear in the back if I were to have no shifting in the front.

Heck, I'm running a triple now on all my bikes though, I think going to a wide range double would probably be something I would want to try first before going to a wide-er single.  With my triple I tend to shift multiple gears on the back cluster pretty often, making me think that I could easily handle a wider range casette in the back, and also only two ranges in the front. 

But cranksets aren't free, so for now I am sticking with what I've got as it works well enough.  Only real problem is that the Riv tends to either toss the chain off the top or the bottom, no matter what I do.  It's done this with 4 different cranksets and many, many chains.  I think maybe it's a function of the geometry of my extremely large bike, seat tube 69cm C-T and TT 64CM.

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Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Deacon Patrick]

Here's how I see it: the front derailer question is simply a specific expression of the quest for balance between functionality and simplicity. We've all chosen Rivendells, and at least some of us did so because of the benefits of steel and Grant's brilliance with geometry -- aka expressions of the balance between functionality and simplicity.

Single speed/fixed is another expression of that quest. So is the front derailure. I'm still curious to see how I do only using my middle chain ring on the Hunqapillar bikepacking this summer (my broken rib has delayed the experiment's start till July). If the answer is "Yup, 36 front ring is all you need" then I'll explore the best ways to achieve that. I do find it bothersome having the shifter move whenever I lay down the bike. So there is practical simplicity in the moment to moment experience of the ride.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

This is what we all need: http://abundantadventures.com/quads.html

In an effort to achieve perfect simplicity -- which  in my case meant having one bike that did everything perfectly -- I installed one of these; this back circa 1990. Neither it nor the "one bike perfect for everything" worked very well (though others seem to like the Quad).

So in despair I went to fixed gear drivetrains.

Seriously, Patrick is right: it's all an attempt to balance features and simplicity. Perhaps the answer is, instead of 4 chainrings, to have 4 fixed gear bicycles.

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[Ron Mc]

my best bike buddy has a quad on his Fisher MB, 18T on the small ring.  He never really uses it and claims he can't quite keep his balance with it.  

[Patrick Moore]

Back in 1990 my sole bike was a Columbus Supergo mountain bike for which I had 3 wheelsets: off road, road errand, and road gofast, each with appropriate gearing and tires. I wanted to get even simpler with just one wheelset (but mount different tires) and run a 12-19 7, which was the preferred cogset for my gofast wheelset with 1" Turbos. The 38 and 48 would give me fine road gearing; the 16 t quad was an attempt to mimic the low gears possible with 28, a 14-32 cassette, and the knobbies. It worked after a fashion, but the fashion was not to my liking. 

[Garth]

Glad you remembered about your chain length Tony !   It came to me last night that there could be no other cause than too long of chain.  If you're only using 1 ring and a proper tensioned chain, there is no need for a chain retaining device, unless you just want to buy something you'll never need !   I bought one of those n-gear doodads and I have never needed it .

Also, you don't even need to continue using a mtb derailer , you could use a road long(still shorter than the mtb) or even a road regular , depending on your setup. Chain wrap capacity only matters for the gear ranges actually used, not what your rings and cassette add up to.

[Matt Gilkey]

I converted my mountain bike to a 1x9 setup and really loved it, but I occasionally dropped the chain. I tried various retention devices and finally went to a wide-narrow chain ring like this one.

http://www.raceface.com/components/rings/rings/single-ring-narrow-wide/

It works great, and I haven't had the chain drop since, even on exceptionally rough trails.  Hope that helps.

-Matt

[Philip Williamson]

I thought about you and your 1x hatred when I replaced my triple with an ENO crank!

Worked great with the 12-25, but the 11-32 with the short chain seems to have jacked up my derailleur. Oops. I bought another 105 rd at the Riv garage sale, and I plan to single up the bike this weekend, but still. Oops. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

On Monday, June 16, 2014 7:26:25 AM UTC-7, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

[Eric Platt]

For me, it was to make the Hillborne different from my other bikes.  Also, it was what was on my Surly Cross Check when I stripped it of parts to build up the Hillborne.  For winter in Minnesota, not having a front derailleur is an advantage.  Even with full coverage fenders, that area gets caked with mud/slush/snow.  One less thing to stop working.

Eventually, would like to spend the money for a 1x10 setup with a 42t in the rear.  But that may end up being purchased for my Surly Ogre.  

Lastly, it was laziness.  One less derailleur and shifter to install and adjust when building the bike.  Not a huge thing, but a thing anyway.

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

--

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Hey Tony, if you do go 1xN, and your frame has downtube shifter braze-ons (i.e., not just a cable stop), you can consider putting the lovely Japanese Crane brass bell on the unused stud. The one with the spring-loaded hammer will screw on nicely and the bell will cover the ugly bare stud.

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

I can't speak for others, but I only switched to a 1x8 after I noticed I'm entirely OK with my 3-speed Brompton for commuting purposes. I rarely spin out my 35x11 (Cat 6 racing, yay!) and I've not met a hill I can't climb with my 35x32, even with a sometimes heavy load (20 pounds of Lychees, laptop, files, clothes, plus, plus) on a fairly heavy commuter.

But why even change? In the spirit that a utility bike should require as little maintenance as possible; there's something about optimizing a setup that appeals to me. And for fun! What good is it if it's not fun? :)

For what it's worth, my other bikes all have at least doubles and more are slowly getting triples with 26T grannies as I slowly accept the fact that I'm not nearly as strong as I used to be.

On Monday, June 16, 2014 7:26:25 AM UTC-7, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

[Montclair BobbyB]

Come on now, Philip... Hatred is not part of my being; only love. I just love my triple more than your ENO, that's all.... :)

Peace,
Bobby

[Garth]

   Yes !  I love my left hand, and I love using it :)  I'd rather have a 5 speed cogset and a double or triple than one of those "all right hand" systems. Better chainline, no dish wheels :) 
This all-rightness is right-eousness taken to the literal !  To me, it's a way of re-acting to make some peace out of those silly 9-11 speed cassettes ;)    Before they existed, I heard no clamoring for 10 or 11 speed clusters !  Now where do they go ?  12,13 14 , 20 ?

Ahahahaahahaha !   

 

 

 

[Matthew J]

Why not a one by 5?  That's what I have on my commuter / light tourer.

[Tony DeFilippo]

A triumphant return to this thread... so after noodling through (with all your assistance) my 1xN thoughts I doubled down by shortening my chain on the existing Sugino triple and continuing to ride throughout the month of June and July.  I never missed my big or small ring and was getting pretty used to the 36T main ring but often felt I could go w/ a slightly higher #T in the front.  Even with the shortened chain I continued to get chain hop on the front end, mostly with a ghost shift up to the big 46T chain ring when I was in the higher/smaller gear in the back.  It was actually pretty consistent even w/ a fairly short chain.

I was just about to order a set of Surly Stainless chainrings, 40 or 42T when I go the opportunity to trade in my (useless to me) 180mm WI Eno crank along with some other goodies for a 175 mm WI Eno crank, installed 44T SS chainring and some other goodies.  

WOW this crank/chainring is sweet. I love the look both from on and off the bike and I love the feel.  I went ahead and changed out the chain and cassette at the same time.  The Saluki does deserve a new derailleur at some point but this exage salvaged off my XO-3's original equipment is doing fine for now.  So far so good w/ chain jump, I may end up adding a Paul chain keeper just in case but for now the combo of SS chainring and new chain is working good and solid.  

http://dr2dc.blogspot.com/2014/08/new-drivetrain-feeling.html

[lungimsam]

Congrats Tony! Looks good too! 

[Matthew J]

Timely revisit!

Maybe others here know already but somehow I missed that Raceface now offers a narrow wide tooth chainring that purportedly reduces chain slipping in 1x set up.  They come in 104, 110 and 130 bcd with a fair range of tooth choices up to 44T (might go higher but that is highest I found).  So far all I've found is black only.

Price is reasonable so I bought one to check out.  Will report after receipt. 

[Chris Lampe 2]

I've long entertained the idea of converting my 27-speed bike to a 1 x 9 and now that I have (successfully) built up another old frame as a single-speed, I think I'm going to go thru with it.  The steepest hills I'm likely to ride 99.9% of the time were doable at @ 25 gear inches (26x28).  I calculate that just keeping my 36t center ring and switching my 11-28 cassette to an 11-34 or 12-34, I can get down to 28 gear inches.   

I like the idea of functional simplicity and although I'm not truly a weight weenie, I prefer a lighter bike over a heavier one.  Finally, for God only knows what reason, Shimano put a grey colored large ring on my otherwise all black crankset.  FUGLY.   I thought about just changing to a black outer ring or even a bashguard but the 1x9 concept has been brewing in my brain for too long and needs to be indulged.  

And Bill, don't despair.....I'm planning to set up my newly built single-speed with only a front brake!   :)    

[Deacon Patrick]

Fantastic, Tony! That really looks great!

In my own experiment, I did quite a few miles of trail and road where I needed my granny on my Continental Divide trip. So much as I'd love a 1x9 set up, I'm keeping the triple (the outer ring is essential a rock guard for me, as the chipped teeth attest to! Sardonic grin.).

With abandon,

Patrick

[Mark Reimer]

As far as I'm concerned, there is only one option for a 1x8/9/10/whatever drive train, which is a wide-narrow chainring up front. 

I race cross with a single 42t up front and a 12-25 in the back. The chainring is made by Wolf Tooth Components (what a name!), though there are many other wide-narrow manufacturers now, such as Absolute Black, Sram, others.. Wolf Tooth was the first to offer it in smaller BCDs for compact cranks, which are 'cross friendly. 

The wide-narrow ring idea is pretty self explanatory - every other tooth is wider, so it takes up the extra space between the outer chain links. I've been able to ride in my smallest cog (where the chain is the under the least tension) over all kinds of rough and bumpy terrain. I can see and hear my chain flapping all over the place, and have never dropped it once. The benefit is also that you don't need a chain keeper at all, which gives the bike a nice clean look, avoids jamming your chain into a keeper, and I guess saves some inconsequential amount of weight. 

I can't recommend them enough, it's been a great experience! I love riding with a single up front.

[Tony DeFilippo]

Mark,

 

Great info on the Wolf Tooth (I also love the name!).  I had looked at these rings before the WI crank fell into my lap...  I might look at one of those for my single speed although I haven't had any chain keeping issues.  I was also looking at the surly stainless rings as they have tall tooth profiles and aren't ramped/pinned.

 

I can't tell you all how oddly satisfying it is to look down at the single chainring crank. It shouldn't really fascinate me as much as it does...  I do feel that my 1x8 shifting is crisper since the new crank but I also replaced the cassette and chain so the cause of the better shifting is definitely spread among those multiple upgrades.

 

Tony

 

[Mark Reimer]

Ah right, I forgot you had the WI crank. With the increasing number of companies doing the wide-narrow rings, I'm really hoping WI will do their own version some day. 

 

Tony

 

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[Bill Lindsay]

I just emailed White Industries with exactly that question: whether they'd ever offer a wide/narrow ring.  It's a natural for folks like them.  I'll post if I hear back 

[Philip Williamson]

Yes! That looks so hot. 

I was surprised at the "feel" of the White Industries cranks, too. They feel stronger, straighter, truer, and more 'engaged' than any other crank I've used. Back to back, Shimano 44t switched to WI 44t, ridden within minutes of each other, the White cranks felt better. More "ahh," and more "yes!"

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Philip Williamson]

I too hope that they do, even though I've had zero chain-losing issues with my WI 1x9.

I also think they should make a road double-double in 38/42, but haven't pinged them about it. 

Philip 

www.biketinker.com 

[Bill Lindsay]

They replied already, saying that they have discussed it internally, but there is no specific plan in place at the moment. 

[Matthew J]

> They replied already, saying that they have discussed it internally, but there is no specific plan in place at the moment.  

I think White's mindset is more single speed where wide/narrow does not make a difference.

[Matthew J]

Meant to add - WT has a few out of the ordinary compatibles, wonder if they might be inclined to do a WI.

[Mark Reimer]

That is too bad. With the rise of 1x8/9/10 and now 11, I think they could really expand their customer base with a good wide-narrow option. Hopefully they change their mind in time. 

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Matthew J <matth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> They replied already, saying that they have discussed it internally, but there is no specific plan in place at the moment.  

I think White's mindset is more single speed where wide/narrow does not make a difference.

--

[Tony DeFilippo]

Philip, I definitely know what you mean and heartily second your idea for a 'Road double-double'...  Wouldn't it be possible to do a wider than 4T delta if they mirrored it in the back?  Like a 34x22 and 40x16...   The options are endless, I understand why they have to focus on a limited set of options given their scale.

Great cranks though! :)

[Matthew J]

That is too bad. With the rise of 1x8/9/10 and now 11, I think they could really expand their customer base with a good wide-narrow option. Hopefully they change their mind in time. 

Agreed to a point.  I like WI stuff.  The more reasons to buy the better.  I would love to have a WI crank on my 1X bike.

However, product lines are always a challenge for a small manufacturing operation like WI.  In order to join the 1X wave it is possible WI would need new equipment and employees.  If their product misses or the trend dies before the investments pay off it could be quite a blow to their viability. 

Not quite the same thing, but a while back there was a good article about the Paul Rear Der that for a while in the '90s was the hottest thing going.  Despite demand and customers willing to pay a premium, production challenges for such a small operation almost put Paul out of business.

[Bill Lindsay]

I think White Industries can afford to offer a wide/narrow chainring for exactly the reasons you say that they can't afford to.  To CNC a chainring, they need a CNC mill, the right materials, tooling and fixturing suitable to hold the material, and a competent CNC operator.  They already have all those things.  The only investment is a design, which is not nothing, but it's also not a huge monetary expense.  It's Doug sitting at the CAD station and deciding to fire out a design.  It's nothing like a derailleur.  From the CNC manufacturing perspective, the tooth profile is a decorative feature.  Just like if there was a hot new trend in 10mm pitch chains, White could react if they wanted to with a couple tweaks to existing design templates.  The risk of doing any of these things is mainly deciding whether people would buy them or would you be stuck recycling a lot of inventory.  Actual physical infrastructure investment would be nearly zero, which is why I am optimistic that it could happen.

[Philip Williamson]

I like the 4 tooth difference, since I have 17/21 Surly Dingle cogs on two bikes, which gives 67.5" and 50" with 42/38 rings. 

That seems low on the top end, but seems to work. I also have a 15t on the flip side for a 76.5" gear. 

That spread works for my riding, where a 2 or 3 tooth gap does not. The 4t difference is minimally viable for road/offroad, or flat/climbing. For me. 

Ideally... a FIVE tooth difference, 43/38 x 16/21 would give me EXACTLY what I want: 73.4" and 49.4" with 38mm tires. 

It would also give White a fixed or freewheel cog with a greater range than Surly, which would be another differentiator to justify the higher price. 

I think White's ENO line is focused on off-road singlespeeding, not on-road or all-round riding. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Bill Lindsay]

Tinker, I think that's brilliant. Let's ride out to Petaluma and pitch it to them. To make a 16/21 dos freewheel, the just need to make the drivering. Heck, we might be able to make one ourselves. otherwise you can run dual single freewheels on a flipflop.

you can easily do 43/38 today with a 110bcd crank. we should ride our proof of concept bikes out there and talk them into it over a few beverages.

[Matthew J]

> I think White Industries can afford to offer a wide/narrow chainring for exactly the reasons you say that they can't afford to...

Well, I certainly hope you are right.  As should be clear I am both a WI and 1X fan. . 

Still, I wonder whether it will happen.  CAM is certainly not as complicated as tooling a mold to forge parts but it still takes equipment and time.  WI already makes a lot of stuff as it is.   I've waited up to two months for WI product to show up at the LBS.  Adding more chainrings to an already healthy assortment will put additional strain on the system.  With luck WI is up to it already and will have something out soon.

[Mark Reimer]

On that note, I wonder if it's any more likely that a third party would make compatible wide-narrow rings. I have noticed there are at least one or two other direct-mount wide-narrow ring manufacturers out there, making rings for SRAM's XO/1x11 system, but I guess the demand is much higher for that than WI stuff. I know Home Brewed Components used to make aftermarket rings, but from what I gather that company is basically non-existant now. Of course I would way rather buy direct from White. Their stuff has always been great and I'd prefer to support them directly. 

--

[Bill Lindsay]

For sure if their CNC mill is already running at full capacity, then they need more capacity in order to expand their offerings and supply more parts.  

To me it's all about their perception of a need (do 1x riders really drop their chain with our current parts?), followed by a willingness to fill that need (Let's steal RaceFace's lunch money!) and then executing a design.  The manufacturing part will take care of itself after that.  From what Lynette said, they have only discussed the need, but haven't done anything about it yet. 

That gets me thinking...

I have a VBC crankset on my road bike.  It's a 44/30.  I could just remove the front derailer and the 30T ring, and put on a bigger cassette.  Maybe borrow the Rivvy 12-34 from my Hillborne.  That would give me a 1x9 with gears of:  35,42,50,57,66,74,85,91,99

What else would I possibly need on a road bike?

[Matthew J]

> I have a VBC crankset on my road bike.  It's a 44/30.  I could just remove the front derailer and the 30T ring, and put on a bigger cassette.  Maybe borrow the Rivvy 12-34 from my Hillborne.  > That would give me a 1x9 with gears of:  35,42,50,57,66,74,85,91,99

That's what I'm thinking. 

[Matthew J]

Of course I would way rather buy direct from White. Their stuff has always been great and I'd prefer to support them directly. 

I'm trying to think if anyone else makes WI compatible rings of any sort.  It could be WI has IP protection for the ring/arm interface and will not license.  Just thinking out loud here.  I have no knowledge one way or the other.  Certainly would be happy to use a Wolf Tooth ring on a WI crank.

[Antonioni Vicente]

Destroyed my front d on a ride just days before my solo PDX-Lost Coast-SF tour.  Kept it in the middle until i hit the climb out of Ferndale, placing it- by hand-back to the middle guy after getting onto Hwy 1.  No big deal.

[Philip Williamson]

I could rig a 44/39 pretty easily I think, depending on BCD, and I have a 17t WI cog. A 22t FW would give the 5 tooth difference.

We ride over to White Industries World Headquarters, I buy a 22t FW, and spin it on while you explain the concept. Ride out to the Tin Bar, discuss it over a pint. Flip the wheel and ride up Stage Gulch. Flip again at the top. Ride down Adobe to Manor, flip again for the Manor climb. Ride back to the new tasting room across from Lagunitas, discuss further.

This would be fun even if no one at White was interested in the demonstration...

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Peter Adler]

There's a MeetYourMaker ride starting/ending at White Industries this coming Saturday at 10AM, with a tour of the plant somewhere in there. If you can gear it up tomorrow and get there in time, there's tacos and beer when you're done.

http://meetyourmakertour.com/rides/aug-9-2014/

Peter Adler

trying to decide if I can be alert enough early enough to drive 50 miles to Petaluma for a 20-45 mile ride

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Philip Williamson]

Perfect time to show White the 5t dingle concept...

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Bill Lindsay]

One detail I had missed:

White Industries absolutely does make an adapter ring that allows you to run a SRAM XX1chainring on your VBC (or ENO) arms.  So, if you want to build up a 1xwhatever, and want to use White crankarms and want wide-narrow chainring technology, then you absolutely can do it.  

[Mark Reimer]

What!? Really? Never heard or have seen one of those. Can you elaborate? 

[Mark Reimer]

Ah I see, must be referring to this device? 

http://www.singlespeed.nl/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=31&products_id=1505&osCsid=db29d7f9d6b8c788f8b18fcc8765ad3e

That is very cool. Though it would be a bummer to have WI cranks without their cool rings to match. 

[Matthew J]

Wow.  I had no idea.  Wonderful.

[Bill Lindsay]

It's $50 MSRP on the White Industries pricelist, and so any LBS that orders from White should be able to get it for you.  I wonder if I could show up at MyM and talk them out of one?    

[ted]

Bill, have you been up say Welch Creek rd. off Calaveras?

[Bill Lindsay]

Ted

No, I haven't been up Welch Creek Road.  Did you see somebody there and thought it might have been me? 

[ted]

Nope. I thought you might want something smaller than a 35" gear there. As in a reason to want lower than 35" on a road bike.

[Bill Lindsay]

Oh, I see.  I promise that if I choose to tackle the steepest climbs in any particular geographic area, I'll bring a low gear.  If I had to grab one of my bikes down off the hook right now and do Welch Road, I suppose I'd choose the Hillborne which has a 23" low gear.  The Bombadil has an 18" low, but it weighs 40 pounds.  The drivetrain on my Black Mountain is pretty flexible.  I could have it geared down in the 22" range in about 20 minutes with parts on the shelves in my garage.  It's always good to be prepared. 

[ted]

All perfectly valid and true etc. I was just pulling your leg, or poking some fun, or whatever. Of course by all means try the 1x9 on the road bike and have fun. It sure sounds fun.

If you ever do find your way south east of sunol, welch creek is a nice wooded, narrow, lightly traveled, dead end road (albeit steep), that gives access to the top/back side of sunol regional wilderness. Going up welch and down through the park is a nice mixed terrain ride. Calaveras to and from welch, well eh. I guess it can't all be great all the time.

[Iron Rider]

On Monday, June 16, 2014 10:35:09 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote: (Yes, I do consider the 39 on my Ram as a "granny" -- my small cog is a 16.)

I am curious.  What size and number cogs do you run 16 - ? and I assume that you had to assemble yourself or was is sold in that configuration somewhere?

[Patrick Moore]

For the record, I'd prefer a 17 t outer cog (84" high) so as to bring the middle 20 and 21 t cruising cogs outward by one place. I may just revert to a 17-26 (or 27) 8 speed, since with just 8 I can fudge the outer.

That said: 16-17-18-19-20-21-22-24-26. Not sold in any shop.

Or, better, swap the 53 for a 52 which would make the center gear -- ie, the Large/20 -- a 70" gear instead of a ~72".

The largest outer cog that Miche makes is the 16.

And lastly, the 39 is a "granny" in the sense that I use it only for steep hills; all my cruising and most climbing is in the 53.

Patrick "never accept a stock cassette" Moore

On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Iron Rider <100...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, June 16, 2014 10:35:09 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote: (Yes, I do consider the 39 on my Ram as a "granny" -- my small cog is a 16.)

I am curious.  What size and number cogs do you run 16 - ? and I assume that you had to assemble yourself or was is sold in that configuration somewhere?

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   "Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.

"Nothing outside you can give you any place," he said. "You needn't to look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where in your time and your body can they be?

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[ted]

Which sounds fine. Alternatively can't one go to smaller rings and get a similar effect with stock cassettes?

[lungimsam]

Do FDs leave a footprint when you take them off your seat tube?