Groupsets. Shimano, Campy, etc.

[Benedikt]

Does anyone feel that the expensive group sets (i.e. derailleurs, cranks, cassettes, brake/shift levers) are any better then the entry level? What is it that drives the price up? Is it the performance or just the material it's made up of/weight?

[Anton Tutter]

You've opened a can of worms with that question, as I'm sure you'll receive a bevy of opinions.

In my experience, low-end groups (Shimano Acera, Sora) not only perform sub-par but also are much heavier and don't last as long. As you move up the food chain, they get lighter, operate with more precision, and last longer due various reasons, such as better bearings, more expensive materials, etc.  But the climb up the food chain isn't always linear, and some component levels around the middle of the pack stand out as exemplary given their price-point and marketing placement. For example, Shimano 105 has always impressed me, giving 90% of the quality of Dura Ace but at 30% of the price. I'm sure similar comparisons can be made with SRAM and Campagnolo groups, but I don't have first hand experience current iterations of those brands' groups.

And then there's also the trickle-down effect. Component manufacturers will put the results of their latest technologies on their expensive components, and when they become proven over time and cheaper to manufacturer, they trickle down into the lower groups. Think technologies like STI. Originally introduced in the Dura Ace group 25 years ago, now even entry level road groups use the technology. So a low-end group today may be as good as or better than a group one step up from 10-20 years ago.  Sometimes I have a tough time discerning the quality difference of newer Sora components and older 105/ultegra components.

With certain components like cassettes and cranks, where there are essentially no moving parts, the only thing the higher group level gets you is weight savings. But for things with complex moving parts like STI shifters, or things with bearings like hubs and bottom brackets, more expensive is generally better.

Anton

[ascpgh]

The exception to " But for things with complex moving parts like STI shifters, or things with bearings like hubs and bottom brackets, more expensive is generally better." is when those expenses bring about lighter material use that doesn't necessarily play well with the intended use of a group. 

On a long ago cross country ride by four riders, one bar end shifted 8 speed one Ultegra STI and two Dura Ace STI drivetrains, one group proved to need attention and demonstrated wear first. It was the DA STI. By mid-continent the shifters were ill-behaving and each rider required a replacement. Collective wear, be it from dust in the air, water-carried grit or the water itself in the form of rain, automobile road spray or mind-numbing mile after mile of other bicycle wheel spray, took its toll on the DA but not the Ultegra. I continue to use the same bar ends from that ride. 

The expense of an aluminum pivot pin over a CrMo or stainless one may weigh less, if that is the intent, but it sure will wear down faster. The "more expensive" moving parts may not be particularly better if durability is the primary objective. By durable, I think about my commuter bike and its mid-level gear that sucks up the abuse of its use like the super fly, high-end stuff most likely cannot.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Anton Tutter]

Andy, there are certainly exceptions like you point out, where a premium is put on weight savings over durability.  And it's generally accepted that a $20 Shimano UN55 bottom bracket will last as long as an expensive weight-weenie titanium bottom bracket, and operate just as smoothly. But it's also very well known that certain high-end hubs can last forever, compared to low end hubs with lower quality bearing races and seals that wear out quickly.

My favorite components are those that use replaceable cartridge bearings. This way, you can just replace the bearings if they go bad rather than sacrifice an expensive component.  I had a very expensive titanium Phil BB go bad after it sat in rusty water that built up inside my frame.  It ruined the bearings.  Phil replaced the bearings for me for a nominal fee, and as a result, I had a new BB again. If it had been a lower end, non-serviceable BB, it would have had to been chucked.

Anton

[Philip Williamson]

Yes, I think expensive components are better than entry level components. As Anton says, it's not a linear progression. Ever since I was a teenager, I've tried to hit the Sweet Spot on the curve, right before price starts doubling, and quality starts incrementing. This is person explains the idea: http://blog.yayateahouse.co.nz/2013/02/16/finding-the-sweet-spot/.
For me, ignoring everything below "decent" and above "quite good" saves hours of time and mental effort, in addition to money. I don't need to be chasing the dragon on bike parts, coffee, or whiskey.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Anton Tutter]

Just curious-- what are some of your "sweetspot" components? For me, Shimano 105 hits the mark for most of the group product line.

[Benedikt]

Anton I completely agree with you when it comes to Phil Wood hubs and the replacable bearings. I believe it's a cartridge bearing. As a side note, does anyone know if White Industries hubs use replacable cartridge bearings? I love the MUSA factor.

[Benedikt]

Dreaming about building up a new bike is what started this discussion. I've been using bar end shifters (friction) for 4 years now and over 25,000 miles of riding (most commuting) I've noticed I can easily get 10,000 miles out of a cheap hub or BB. I had a Shimano Sora shifter fail (before the bar ends) after about 10,000 miles. I think that's good mileage for the price and I never had a problem with shifting, however I'm not used to anything more costly then that.

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:

[Anton Tutter]

Yes, White Ind. hubs use cartridge bearings!

[Mark Reimer]

I've had two Shimano 105 groupsets (9spd and 10spd), both of which were used on cross bikes. Great price and excellent value, though not truly a set it and forget it kinda thing..

I'd ride that bike on gravel road rides, nasty weather and of course racing cross. Everything on the 105 group worked well expect for the shifters, which seems to constantly need attention. I'd need to shift up two clicks then back down one just to pull the derailleur over sometimes. I think it was caused by grime getting into the cables/housing, not really the shifters themselves though, but it was annoying that I always seemed to be the only person suffereing this problem on group rides, where others would be riding Ultegra, Dura Ace, or SRAM. If i put new cables and housing on I'd get perfect shifting for several weeks, then start hitting the snags again.

It's a fact that STI shifters are more prone to falling out of alignment than bar end shifters, but I also have a Campy Athena 11spd group that I didn't need to trim once in three years... That group is hands down the best performing and most reliable group I've ever seen. Plus, it comes in SILVER! The hoods are incredibly comfortable, it shifts so smoothly (even under load), the brakes are excellent, and the chains last forever. It is definitely more expensive up front, but in the long run my 105 groups have cost me much more money in replacement cables, chains, housing, and other parts.

[Mark R.]

I have had better service out of more expensive components.  All my Dura Ace stuff has been flawless, but it has been 7700 DT shifters or bar cons.  Brakes, bearings, etc, perfecto!

All my high end Campy stuff has been fantastic, lasts forever, blah blah blah blah.

That said, when I built up my new LIghthouse this year, I wanted silver components and opted for Athena 11 ergo levers (shifting a nine speed Dura Ace drive train).  Worked great, shifters lasted 1500 miles!  I guess this was a known issue with the powershift levers, replaced them with carbon Chorus levers, they are getting better the more I ride them (about 2500 miles or so).  I find them breaking in, not breaking down, and the only thing I don't like is the color.  But I am over that.

Campy did warranty the broken Athena lever, so I will keep them as spares.  I have run 10's of thousands of miles on Chorus nine and Record nine levers, they just kept shifting!  Once every few years I would replace a spring (5 bucks) in the shifter and it was good for another 10 k or more miles.  This was on the early rounded hood levers, not the later ones, nor the early pointy hood ones.

I never had much luck with Phil stuff, so I don't put my money there. 

Mark
www.youtube.com/howtostretch
SDCA

On Friday, November 28, 2014 2:31:54 PM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:

I

[Mark Reimer]

Agreed regarding Phil wood. I have four sets of hubs. Two single speed sets which are flawless, and two road setups, one disc and one non disc. Both have pawl slippage problems. I'm just rebuilt my five month old rear disc hub for the third time with lighter oil after it continually slipped in the cold. For $500 I expect a hub to be perfect. Phil customer service has always been a joke for me over the years. 

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/28/2014 06:44 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:

Agreed regarding Phil wood. I have four sets of hubs. Two single speed sets which are flawless, and two road setups, one disc and one non disc. Both have pawl slippage problems. I'm just rebuilt my five month old rear disc hub for the third time with lighter oil after it continually slipped in the cold. For $500 I expect a hub to be perfect. Phil customer service has always been a joke for me over the years. 

I had the ratchet mechanism on a Phil cassette hub self destruct on a ride a couple of years ago with a sound very much like what happens when you try to shift a manual transmission without using the clutch.  The LBS sent the wheel back for repair -- evidently a pawl broke and in the process destroyed the rotor ring -- altogether something like a $300 repair.  The repaired wheel was as loud as a fairground wheel of fortune when coasting and had so much internal friction if you backpedaled (e.g., while cleaning the chain) the chain would droop down to the chainstay.  It also made clanking noises from time to time, with what felt like internal skipping from time to time.  The LBS tried three times to fix whatever's going on, but without any success.

I finally took that wheel out of service and had a new wheel built on a Shimano 105 hub.  I should have done that in the first place.

I have one other Phil wheel in service; this one had gobs of end play.  When it finally gives up the ghost, I'm going to replace it with a Shimano as well.

[Joe Bernard]

I think its place in the lineup (Shimano) matters much more if you're looking for brifters. I had a bike with Sora STI a couple years ago and the shifting action seemed heavy, with big swings of the levers to finish shifts. I don't have personal experience with them, but I imagine the 105/Ultegra/D-A stuff is noticeably crisper.

On the other hand, if you're a prototypical Riv-person using Silver friction shifters, I'm not sure any part above 105 is necessary, and below that is acceptable, too. A friction shifter will push just about any derailer to a cog or chainring without much bother, so my choices tend to come down to which part looks nicest within my budget.

Joe "not quite ready for Altus with huge pulleys yet" Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Benedikt]

That's interesting to hear only negative comments about Phil Wood. I always thought those would be bomb proof. I'm looking for something with some color in the hubs and that was a candidate. I guess I'll stick with the White Industries and save some money too!

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 4:54:55 PM UTC-8, Benedikt wrote:

[ascpgh]

Anton, You touched on my major favorite. Mavic headsets, bottom brackets and hubs of the late '80s and early '90s opened a special place in my heart, for cartridge bearings particularly. The BB was fantastic, serviceable without deinstalling. The bearings were not fiddly odd ducks, I'd picked some up at an industrial bearing supply house. Appreciating the same, I have had fluctuating luck with the Phil BBs. I switched to the SKF in my Ram when I changed my triple to a wide double. I was very much into that era of Mavic components until their manufacture ended. I still found NOS at shops ten years later. That headset, predating threadless, was fantastic in its design and operation.  Once the sourcing of those parts became rare I sold my Mavic mechanic's toolkit to Jeremy at http://www.tearsforgears.com (On the front page, the picture for Mavic tools is the box. All those technical drawings on mylar pages too.)

Shifting systems have always been moving targets when trying to pin down the sweet spot. Indexed shifting has an impulse that the shifter generates and transmits down the cable to which the derailleur responds. The different brands do so in different manners which vary where the stress peaks are and also how those pieces are able to tolerate being cheapened for budget groups. The chain and cog teeth interaction once the shift impulse is initiated is the final interaction. Shimano shifting seems to produce the highest spike of impulse energy for indexed shifts and I feel like over the years it is a key source of the wear that befalls their "out of the box" shifting first. These sudden yanks of cable have left so many rear derailleurs with accumulated play in the parallelogram pivots, as that thread about STX pointed out. Anyone have a strong feeling as to the durability of your shift cables in a particular brand's drivetrain? 

There is nothing better than a sweet functioning component, even more so if light too. I have to say I have been confounded by such components when they don't meet the expectations that either the expense or effort to provide for them in a build. Bottom of the top third hub offerings from Shimano have done well for me and I think no ill thoughts about their retirement. I was about to send a set back to PJW for a new build and he instead offered a new in box set of XTs that made postage and three days time evaporate any goodwill my previous set possessed. Wouldn't do that with some more boutique hubset.

Contrary to the sweet spot components are the let downs; the hanger queens, the part so many talk well about in magazines, those that just went "snap" before you really even had a chance to break them in. That is the list on the inside of the toolbox lid, written in red crayon by quivering hand and the spots of dried sweat. That is a more emotional list that veers from rational at time. 105 STI lives there for me. A catastrophic pawl failure of the front shifter of our tandem within the first 1000 miles of use, halfway into a very nice, very hilly ride, that began six hours away from home. The first time I'd experienced the rendered uselessness of an otherwise functional bike. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Matthew J]

MaxiCar and Royce hubs have put in many miles for me.

[Anton Tutter]

Well thought reply, Andy. I had never thought about the differences in impulse energy among various indexing shifters. I do wonder whether the sudden pulses contribute to derailleur parallelogram pivot wear... of course another part of that equation is the material of the pivot pins. I would expect on higher end derailleurs that they are made of a more durable material.  I know that the original XT series (aka Deerhead) mtn derailleur suffered from premature pivot wear, and this was pre-indexing.

I have a set of MAVIC 500/550 hubs on my Jack Taylor, and the cartridge bearings spin smoother than any other hubs in my stable. Smoother than Campy NR, smoother than DA 7400 (both in their own rights very smooth). And I rest assured that if the MAVIC bearings ever go south, I just replace them for a few bucks.  No need to replace the hub.

I'm also surprised at the number of Phil Wood complaints. I also wonder if most of the complaints are directed at their hub product line, because the only real thing that can go wrong with their BBs is the bearings-- there are no other moving parts!  Since they don't manufacture their own bearings but use standard bearings (of which they source very high quality ones from the Japanese mfr NTN), the reliability of their BBs should be no better or worse than any other brand that uses similarly high quality bearings.

As for SKF BBs, I have never owned one but I had an interesting experience installing one on a friend's bike.  Her frame was a new, hand-built frame from a known Boston-area master builder, so there was no possibility of the BB having been faced/chased improperly.  The SKF threaded in by hand and spun very smoothly, until the drive side cup was torqued to spec.  Then the bearings began to bind and feel rough. If I backed off the torque and loosened the DS cup, the bearings turned smoothly again.  This was without the NDS cup installed, so there were no axial alignment issues causing the binding-- the non-drive side was right on axis and the NDS cup could thread in without binding the cartridge.  I suspect the cartridge housing, which is milled as one piece with the DS cup, had been improperly made, and when torqued into the BB shell, deformed slightly, putting stress on the bearing where where there shouldn't be. When I grabbed another random used Shimano cartridge unit from my parts bin, it torqued in just fine and remained smooth.

Anton

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/29/2014 09:58 AM, Anton Tutter wrote:

I'm also surprised at the number of Phil Wood complaints. I also wonder if most of the complaints are directed at their hub product line, because the only real thing that can go wrong with their BBs is the bearings-- there are no other moving parts!  Since they don't manufacture their own bearings but use standard bearings (of which they source very high quality ones from the Japanese mfr NTN), the reliability of their BBs should be no better or worse than any other brand that uses similarly high quality bearings.

Absolutely incorrect.



Here's me in January of 2013, moments after I crashed when the spindle of my Phil Wood bottom bracket -- with fewer than 5,000 miles on it -- broke as I was riding down the road.  The crank with chain rings fell off and I went off to the right and crashed.  I was leading a ride at the time.  A friend stayed with me while others went back for vehicles to retrieve us.

I was very lucky: the only damage to me was a tear in my tights and a small abrasion on my knee.  I somehow managed to execute a perfect tumblesault, missed all the rocks and gravel on the shoulder, and came to a rest with my face only mm from a large pile of dog shit. 

The only damage the bike sustained was that two small pebbles entered the left brake lever as it was sliding along that gravel I missed.  I discovered this a couple of weeks later when the brakes locked up for no obvious reason.  When I brought the bike to the LBS they found the pebbles inside the brake lever, where they had moved around to jam the lever, and then moved again and freed the lever up.

[Richard]

Glad to hear you weren't hurt Steve. Definitely a catastrophic failure, and one without warning.

I have a Phil Wood BB on my Hilsen. I'm guessing it has about 3-4,000 miles on it. So far so good, but I'll probably switch it out to a SKF at some point.I've read the Phil Wood BB isn't very water resistant. I have two SKF BBs on other bikes, and they are both super smooth.

[Jan Heine]

The problem with Phil Wood BBs and hubs isn't the bearings, but the lack of seals for them. The black rubber shields are intended to keep out dust, not water. So you basically have the bearings exposed to the elements... If you ride in the rain, they won't last long. As you point out, at least they are replaceable.

Regarding the SKF bottom bracket you installed, it sounds that either the BB shell's threads are too small (worn reamer), or the SKF unit's threads are too large. That would constrict the BB, reduce its diameter, and cause rough running of the rollers on the driveside. The SKF does have a very thin shell (to maximize space for the bearings inside and minimize the weight), so it may be a bit more sensitive to misalignment, etc., than other BBs with thicker shells. If your friend's BB is faulty, then it's covered by our 10-year warranty, of course (which includes the bearings, unlike almost all other BB warranties).

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 6:58:54 AM UTC-8, Anton Tutter wrote:

Phil Wood complaints. [...]  Since they don't manufacture their own bearings but use standard bearings (of which they source very high quality ones from the Japanese mfr NTN), the reliability of their BBs should be no better or worse than any other brand that uses similarly high quality bearings.

[Anton Tutter]

I didn't test the SKF in another bike's BB shell because I didn't have a free one available at the time.  That would have been the best test of whether the new bike's threads were too shallow, or the SKF's too large. But since the Shimano had no problems in the new bike, I attributed the problem to the SKF.

It was indeed water that destroyed my Phil bearings, but what confuses me is that Phil states they use the highest grade of seals available, basically the same ones used on submersible pump bearings.

[Anton Tutter]

Yikes, that is indeed scary, but FWIW, I've heard of spindle fractures on many brands, cheap and expensive (including Phil, Tange, SKF), but those catastrophic failures seem so rare that I didn't include them when mentioning reliability. I wouldn't exclude using a brand that someone had such a failure with.

[Patrick Shea]

I've replaced the  bearings on both Phil and WI hubs. Any bike or bearing store will have them. My Phil hubs on my old All Rounder used to squeal at times; I once pulled and rotated them all on the Strand in Hermosa Beach. I've been sold on sealed bearings ever since getting my first pair of Road Rider skateboard wheels in the '70s.

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[Philip Williamson]

Huh... Thinking of specifics over the last few years, I mostly buy used boutique stuff. Used pushes things down into the sweet spot, but it has its pitfalls. A couple White ENO rings just toothed to hell, a Phil Kiss Off wheelset that needed a bearing and a rim replaced.

I tend to keep the same bikes for years and years, though, to the point that I now need to redo the Bontrager cockpit to raise the bars - somehow they got too low in the last couple years!

King hubs are no longer Sweet Spot hubs, but the Bontrager/King hubs that came on the Privateer are the best I've ever used. Oh yeah - that was a Sweet Spot bike. Closeouts can push stuff into the Sweet Spot: Discontinued line from the year before, XTR and King spec, "the steel hardtail had no future." The equal or better of the Ibis and IF bikes I test rode, but half the price. The resale value isn't there, but I can't imagine a better mountain bike.

My Quickbeam was a Sweet Spot bike. Rivendell's "most moderately priced offering," it was exactly what I wanted in a bike at the time (but with less tire clearance). The Quickbeam, like the Singular Gryphon, is fairly unique, so the Sweet Spot is that they exist at all.

That said, I have a bunch of 105 level stuff in a box for my next geared road bike. And I've recently bought new and been totally happy with: Shimano cartridge BB; Salsa stem; Cane Creek headset (the mechanic 100% prefers King, but I've never had a bad headset). Vee Rubber tires. Mid-level 9 speed cassettes. Cheap 9 speed cassettes, for that matter.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Jim Bronson]

Replacement cables and housing? Why not just use better housing in
the first place? The top of the line Jagwire can be had in an OEM
pack enough for a whole bike for around $20 on fleabay.

I've abandoned using the housing that ships with new shifters. The
Jagwire stuff works better and lasts longer.

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[Jim Bronson]

Speaking of bearing races on loose ball bearing hubs, is it possible
to micropolish them as is done in crankshaft and rod journals in
internal combustion engines? That seems to me like something that
could prolong the usefulness of loose bearing hubs, along with high
quality ball bearings and grease.

[Mark Reimer]

That's what I use. Doesn't make a difference. I've used bulk housing and fancy jagwire kits. Teflon cables and plain steel. Still run into problems with my 105 brifters.

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[Jan Heine]

The current owners of the Phil Wood company sometimes do make misleading statements, like "We have often been credited with inventing the cartridge bearing bottom bracket" in an interview in the Reader No. 40. (Note how they don't claim that they invented it... Cartridge bearings in hubs and BBs have been around at least since the 1930s.) That one really bothered the historian in me!

I wouldn't be surprised if the submersible pumps used the same bearings, but I suspect that they have external seals that make sure the bearings don't get wet in the first place! The bearings on Phil hubs really need external bearings – they aren't designed to be exposed to the elements. Look around any industrial application (or even your car) – you won't find cartridge bearings exposed to the elements, unless the piece of machinery is only used indoors.

Disclosure: Compass Bicycles sells SKF bottom brackets, so we are a competitor to Phil Wood.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.

Seattle WA USA

www.compasscycle.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Jan Heine]

Sorry, I mistyped: The below sentence should say "external SEALS" (not bearings).

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.

[Chris Chen]

Yes they do, and I love my T11 hubs fiercely!

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[Garth]

For the owners of cassette hubs, if you have problems with the FW mechanism, can/do you not have a spare FW mech. on hand and replace it and deal with fixing it(or sending it to the mfr) or trashing it later so you don't have to send the entire wheel away ?  Sending the wheel just makes no sense nor is it really reasonable for those who don't keep spare entire wheels on hand. 

[Anton Tutter]

I've had great luck with my T11 rear hub but man are those pawls annoyingly loud.  Anyone have any tips for quieting them up?

Anton

[Chris Chen]

I just tell myself that at least they're not Chris King hubs...

[Bill Lindsay]

I've found that White Industries rear hubs are much quieter if you keep pedalling! Ha! Wink! 8-)

[Mark Reimer]

Just got back from the coldest ride of the year thus far, -26C without windchill (I mention the cold as it is troublesome for many different brands of rear hubs), and it looks like the Phil Wood pawls have finally stopped skipping. I disassembled the whole ratchet mechanism and degreased it, then gave it a small amount of TriFlow - just enough to give a thin coating. Now the freewheel has a quiet but pleasant sound (before it was basically silent) and has a reassuring, positive engagement every time. Hopefully this will be the trick that lasts the winter. 

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've found that White Industries rear hubs are much quieter if you keep pedalling!  Ha!  Wink!  8-)

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[Mark Reimer]

In regards to the Phil Wood hubs, the problem is often with the ratchet ring which is threaded into the hub shell/body. The issue isn't often that the pawls themselves are faulty, they just can't engage with a faulty ratchet ring. And for whatever reason Phil Wood does not sell the tool to remove and replace the ratchet ring, even to bike shops. I've read many times that there was as bad run of ratchet rings several years back and this was a common replacement. 

On my hub, the ring and pawls all look fine to me, the issue is that the spring which pushes the pawls outward into the ratchet ring isn't very strong. A ticker oil like Tenacious oil, combined with colder weather is just too much for the spring to force the pawls into the ratchet and engage. 

On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

For the owners of cassette hubs, if you have problems with the FW mechanism, can/do you not have a spare FW mech. on hand and replace it and deal with fixing it(or sending it to the mfr) or trashing it later so you don't have to send the entire wheel away ?  Sending the wheel just makes no sense nor is it really reasonable for those who don't keep spare entire wheels on hand. 

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[Cyclofiend Jim]

My experience has generally been that the better components (not necessarily top of the line, which can be lightened to the exclusion of resilience) don't necessarily work better.  They work better, longer.

- Jim / cyclofiend.com

[Patrick Moore]

Just for the record: in many miles and years of using Phil ss/fixed hubs and bbs, many of each bought second or third or any other-hand -- the wheelset on the erstwhile Herse used 3-piece Phil fw hubs -- in admittedly dry conditions, I've never had any problem except twice with loosening bb lockrings that were fixed with re-tightening. This includes the current, old, steel-shelled -- how old, how many owners? -- bb on the Ram which was converted from 116 to 103 using a hammer; and the custom 145 bb on a fixed mtb that was ridden into 2 feet of water and never serviced -- it spun as new when I disassembled the bike a year or so later (the ti Phil bb on my commuter also got plenty of drenching rain and deep puddles).

I don't say that Phill bbs and hubs won't degrade quickly in regular wet weather use; don't know. But that is my experience (and my brother's, which is even more extensive than mine -- So Cal, mostly). Also, my last new Phil purchase (as opposed to much more recent purchases of even older and used bbs and hubs) was the 2003 Ti bb for the commuter; perhaps the new ones aren't up to the old ones.

[Patrick Moore]

Forgot to add that even the oldest and apparently most used of the Phil bbs and hubs I've owned all turned as smoothly, or (one or two) almost as smoothly, as the new ones I've turned. I've never maintained any of them.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just for the record: in many miles and years of using Phil ss/fixed hubs and bbs, many of each bought second or third or any other-hand -- the wheelset on the erstwhile Herse used 3-piece Phil fw hubs -- in admittedly dry conditions, I've never had any problem except twice with loosening bb lockrings that were fixed with re-tightening. This includes the current, old, steel-shelled -- how old, how many owners? -- bb on the Ram which was converted from 116 to 103 using a hammer; and the custom 145 bb on a fixed mtb that was ridden into 2 feet of water and never serviced -- it spun as new when I disassembled the bike a year or so later (the ti Phil bb on my commuter also got plenty of drenching rain and deep puddles).

I don't say that Phill bbs and hubs won't degrade quickly in regular wet weather use; don't know. But that is my experience (and my brother's, which is even more extensive than mine -- So Cal, mostly). Also, my last new Phil purchase (as opposed to much more recent purchases of even older and used bbs and hubs) was the 2003 Ti bb for the commuter; perhaps the new ones aren't up to the old ones.

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[Garth]

Thanks Mark,

   Yikes about the PW attachment of the CS shell.   I for one prefer the FW/CS body mechanism and it's attachment not being able to render a wheel unusable .  I do not own CS hubs , my needs have always been served with FW's and FW hubs . I have 2 sets of Phil FW hubs and they've been flawless themselves, as expected.  I'm all about user serviceability for the most part.  No, I don't tear down FW's completely but do take off the cogs and clean the inside and relube them.  I'll likely never buy a high end CS hub unless it's design is not vulnerable like the PW CS hub is in it's attachment and need to send in the entire wheel to PW to get it fixed.  That's just unreasonable to me.   I guess that's why I love the independence of the FW system :)

[Mark Reimer]

I've been emailing back and forth with Phil Wood this morning on this very issue actually, after they noticed a discussion I was having on Twitter about lube for PW freehubs. I gave them a detailed run down of the problem and the three different lubes i've tried (phil grease, then tenacious, then triflow). I'll let you know what they say, but I'm betting it'll be 'send it in'... When this first started happening I did an extensive search online and found there were several others with the same issue, and some didn't receive their hubs back for several months. That is not an acceptable solution. 

The freewheel style hubs should certainly be less susceptible to problems as there are basically no moving parts in them. Pretty much the same as the single speed hubs. 

That said, I've had problems with one single speed rear hub and one front road hub. The rear single speed bearings went in the first six months for me, which was being ridden in some nasty weather, but still. When I replaced them with new Phil bearings according to the instructions on PW's website, the bearings were destroyed by the install process! I emailed PW to ask if I had done something wrong and they indicated the process by which I installed the bearings would result in bearing failure. I pointed out I used their own instructions from their website, and I was told the instructions were no longer valid... That was about three-four years ago. The instructions are still on their site...

I replaced them a second time using a different method and they've been great ever since. Lots of wet and sandy weather, they continue to get smoother. It was an expensive lesson though, as PW bearings are not cheap.

My front road hub has a fair amount of side-to-side play at the rim. I know a certain amount is normal for cartridge bearings, but it was enough that it would rattle quite loudly when bounced up and down. None of my others have that issue.

[Anton Tutter]

As far as I know, the only reliable way to remove and install bearings is with the appropriate press.  I've used simple DIY presses for pressing bearings into place, but for removing them you need either an arbor press or wheel puller.

I believe PW uses NTN bearings which are indeed very high quality Japanese bearings. But they order them to their own specs, which no one outside the company really knows...

[Mark Reimer]

Attached is a photo of how I've been pressing new bearings in. It's worked perfectly for about 4-5 hubs now. I lightly grease the outer bearing race and the inside of the hub shell. Then I have a thick and heavy washer which covers both the inner AND outer race of the bearing. This insures that the pressure isn't just applied to the inner race, which will lead to damage and failure. Then I have the old bearing, followed by the PW axle spacer. Then it's simple - just thread the axle bolt into the hub and crank the new bearing in. 

The original PW instructions did not specify the water, just the old bearing. The axle spacer would push hard on the old inner race, which would in turn drive the new bearing into the shell from its inner race. That's just too much force on a part that was never intended to have forces applied. My version mitigates that issue and only cost me about 20 cents :)

[Anton Tutter]

Nice trick. And a good reason to hang to the old bearings! They become tools.

[ascpgh]

Precisely why I held onto this Mavic toolkit  http://www.tearsforgears.com/2012/09/mavic-tools.html before letting go and selling it to Jeremy. 

No maker since has been so open with information about installing and removing bearings from their components, providing diagrams and making tools available. When they do, I'll be looking.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh