Considering my first Riv purchase and looking for helpful advice

[Ty Jeske]

I've been riding a bargain lugged steel Schwinn Traveler (1982) for the last several years. The frame is a little small for me and I've sunk several times its purchase price into repairs, but it has been a reliable and mostly comfortable steed. For the last week though, I've been borrowing a friend's Long Haul Trucker and I've come to realize that the last 30 years have brought desirable advances to bicycle technology. The time has finally come to make an upgrade. I love the ride of steel, and the look of lugged steel in particular, so I'm looking between the LHT and the Rivendell Sam Hillborne. The advantage of the LHT is that I'm riding one now and know exactly what I'd be getting. It's also about half the cost of the Sam. The Sam has the advantage of beautiful lugs, possibly superior components, and a reputation for lasting a lifetime. It also fits my ideal of a comfortable go-anywhere bike. Does anybody have any experience with both that may help me decide? Even better, does anyone know how I may go about test riding the Sam Hillborne? I'm in Tampa FL.

I plan to use the bike much as I do my current one. Mostly recreational rides (15-40 mi), fetching groceries, etc. The occasional overnight camping trip and rare credit card or light touring. Whatever I get will need to take me through the level wooded area and fields between my house and the nearest paved bike trail.

[dougP]

As well executed as the LHT is (and they are quite serviceable bikes), I submit that you would notice a difference between that and a Sam.  One of my touring buds rode an LHT for a number of years and was pleased with it.  His dear wife knew he really appreciated the Atlantis but would never indulge himself, so she bought one for him in the same size as his LHT.  After quite a bit of time riding both bikes, he concluded that the Atlantis really was superior.  It was more responsive and rode better both loaded and unloaded.  The LHT seemed to need some load to soften up the ride.  He ended up selling the LHT. 

The Atlantis is built heavier / stouter / intended to carry more stuff than the Sam.  During a recent visit to RBWHQ, I rode several bikes to check out different handlebars.  One of them was a Sam & I noticed it felt lighter & more responsive than my Atlantis.  Many list members have done light touring with a Sam.  For the service you describe, the Sam is ideal.  The intended use for the LHT is the heavy duty, 4 bags plus more stuff tour, and it's likely over-kill for what you describe. 

Just my observations & opinions.  I hope someone in your area can connect with you for a test ride of a Sam.  Then you'll be able to make a fully informed choice.  Good luck in your search.

dougP

[Daniel M]

I will submit my opinion to add to the variety.

I owned a Sam Hillborne for two years. I bought it brand new, rode it in a double-century, later added front and rear racks and rode it from Berkeley to the Oregon-Washington border and back. It was/is a near-perfect all rounder.

So why did I sell it? I wanted something with smaller wheels and bigger tires. The Hillborne in my size (no longer made 56cm, single top tube, cantilever brakes) happened to come with 700c wheels and I was running the biggest tires that I could fit with fenders: Schwalbe Marathon Supreme 700x40. What happened is that I finally built the touring bike of my dreams with a Rohloff hub and 26" wheels (and currently running 60mm tires with fenders) and I was kind of blown away by the stability of the touring geometry coupled with the agility of the smaller wheels. The Hillborne was incredibly stable on descents but REALLY reluctant to change direction quickly around town - kind of the complaint about 29ers (AKA 700c) that has sent people to 27.5" (AKA 650b) in the mountain bike world. If I hadn't built up the touring bike, I would probably still own the Hillborne, but I didn't need two touring bikes, so when I stumbled across a reasonably-priced used 650b randonneuring bike I bought it and sold the Hillborne for the same amount of money.

When it came time to choose an all-around bike for my wife, who is 5'10", we chose a Long Haul Trucker in the 58cm frame size with 26" wheels. We also swapped out the drop handlebars for upright, swept bars, and replaced the canti brakes with V-brakes. I really think it is the ideal all-round bike. So comfortable, capable of hauling whatever you can put on it, and 2.0" (50mm) Big Apples are wonderfully smooth on pavement and stable and capable off of it. If my main uses were as you describe, rides under 40 miles, getting groceries, and occasional touring, I would get it over the Hillborne in a heartbeat. If I intended to ride mostly lightly loaded and for longer distances (60+ miles), then I would seriously consider the Hillborne, which is less of a tank and more of a road bike, although the lack of canti posts on the current offerings I find really disappointing.

My two cents in a nutshell.

Daniel M
Berkeley, CA

[Goshen Peter]

Buy my Bombadil!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Considering that Sams are going away in the near future, that should seal the deal on one for you!

On Monday, September 22, 2014 3:02:14 AM UTC-7, Ty Jeske wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Since you've already ridden the one, I think you would really need to ride the other to make your choice. Then pick the one you think will have you taking extra trips just 'cause it's so cool to be on.

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

On Monday, September 22, 2014 3:02:14 AM UTC-7, Ty Jeske wrote:

[Jon in the foothills of Central Colorado]

I'm a new member of this group and recently purchased a Sam from Rivendell and built it from the frame up.I looked at the LHT and it's a great bike and the price difference definitely stood out.

I never rode either bike before buying my Sam.

The thing that put the Sam above the LHT was the people  at Rivendell. You can call them anytime and no matter who you talk to they know their product line and they will answer your questions with enthusiasm .The same goes for the people in this group. The Rivendell people know what works and what doesn't and won't sell you components that are not compatible with other components or the bike. They ride what they sell. I think the Rivendell buying experience is something special .Buying a bike should be fun and they will be there after the sale to help with questions or problems. One example is I was in the middle of building my Sam and I realized that I forgot to order brake levers.I called on a Friday afternoon and Vince understood that I would have to stop until I got levers and went out of his way to ship out the levers that afternoon and they were in my hands before I needed them.

Everything that they suggested has worked out great.It's the first bike I have ever bought over the phone and it is the most comfortable bike I've bought in 30 years of riding.

Tell them what you want to use the bike for and they will fix you up with the best components and accessories and you can trust they won't sell you more than you need.

My two cents.

Jon

On Monday, September 22, 2014 4:02:14 AM UTC-6, Ty Jeske wrote:

[Chris Lampe 2]

Daniel,

What frame did you end up building into a 26" touring bike?  Was it a custom or off-the-shelf?  

[Daniel M]

Chris:

It is a Thorn Raven Tour. Not custom, probably low-volume, designed specifically for the Rohloff hub. It's not a direct replacement for the Hillborne in any way, shape, or form - it's a nearly 40-pound touring / city / fleeing-the-zombie-apocalypse bike. I wouldn't even THINK of attempting a double century on it, but I can't imagine ever touring again without a Rohloff. That said, the 26" LHT is probably one-third of the price, considerably lighter, and still completely versatile and reliable.

Daniel
Berkeley, CA

[Ty Jeske]

Thanks for all the great advice and thoughtful responses everyone. The LHT I'm riding is my friend's spare, so I think I could get a good deal on it should I decide to go that direction. I am wary of buying what I intend to be a lifetime bicycle just because it's convenient or a bargain though, so I would love to see and ride a Sam first hand. If you know anyone who has a Sam in my area (i could meet anywhere in Florida), or in Atlanta where I visit frequently, please see if they're willing to allow a test-ride. I think I would fit a 55cm best.

[ascpgh]

Ty,

Buy the Sam.

I don't have a Sam, but I do have a 2001 pearl orange Rivendell Rambouillet and a Suly Disc Trucker for my commuter and rough stuff bike. I bought my Rambouillet just in time for (and because of) a chance to join three others on a super light, credit card ride across the country with just a saddlebag (Caradice Nelson Longflap) load.  I also frequent the Great Allegheny Passage rail trail/C&O toe path route between Pittsburgh and Washington DC as well as all sorts of solo and group riding in between.

To me the overbuilt nature of the Trucker as a full-on loaded tourer isn't of use but the handling (longer wheelbase, slower, steadier handling) is beneficial to the level of my mental acuity on my year-round daily route, particularly the return leg after 12-14 hours at work. By the end of August I am in the dark going both directions until roughly next April, and despite a hub generator and a really good light there are still things that will surprise me and render me again thankful to be on a slower handling frame that is not easily upset.

If I had any "greener pastures" thoughts about my Rambouillet, I'd be looking at the Sam, specifically for additional clearance for wider tires with fenders. Limited brake caliper reach options dictated my bike's clearances when designed, those choices were more abundant when specifying the Sam frames. The ride quality of the Sam is much more akin to my Rambouillet than the LHT you compare. Some may point out that the LHT was highly influenced by the Atlantis which was the original production (versus the all custom, to-order frames) from Rivendell and the Rambouillet was the second, offering a different intended purpose (light or no load) and ride quality (responsive, lively). 

I may justifying more clearance and buying a new model, instead I feel like I should send a quick note each spring to Rivendell thanking them for another year of enjoyment, good fit and service from my well-selected Rambouillet. They say their bikes: 

"We do, though, guarantee that we put every effort into making your Rivendell the best bike you've ever seen, touched, heard about, or ridden. We use the best materials, the best craftsmanship, the best design. Barring accidents and assuming you're riding it for its intended purpose, we expect it will be the last bicycle you ever have to buy."

I'd love to buy another but their statement is pretty clear, and so far true for me. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh 

[Steve Palincsar]

I think most would agree that a LHT is a useful tool, but as a "lifetime
bicycle," not so much.

[WETH]

I own and ride both a Surly LHT and an Atlantis.  If I could keep only one, it would be the Atlantis.

To quote Steve: "I think most would agree that a LHT is a useful tool, but as a "lifetime 
bicycle," not so much." 

[Kevin]

Another thing to consider from my end:

Last year I was looking for a new bike (to replace my 80s Bridgestone). I debated between the Sam and a Soma. I ended up getting the Soma - price was the deciding factor. The Soma was a good bike, a great one really. It did everything I wanted it to. But.

But, I still felt like in wa missing out. I remember on at large gathering someone had a Sam. Even though my bike was just a couple of months old, I wanted the Sam. A few months later my Soma was wrecked in a car crash and I decided to use the insurance money on a Sam. Love it, haven't looked back.

So what I learned: (if you can afford it) don't let the cost be the deciding factor, get what you really want!

[hangtownmatt]

Here's my story:

In March 2012, I bought myself a Sam Hillborne frameset.  I  wasn't even in the market! My son and daughter were competing in a swim meet at UC Berkley, and my wife and I took a little side trip to Walnut Creek during some downtime. She was interested in their mixte; the Betty Foy. We didn't have a lot of time but the staff took the appropriate measurements and put her on the Betty and myself, just for kicks, on the A. Homer Hilsen. Wild horses couldn't drag me to a double top tubed Hillborne at that time. Everything felt great. The service was terrific and there was absolutely zero pressure to buy. Unfortunately, we just didn't have enough time to fully test ride the bikes.

A little background on myself. I'm a Classic & Vintage type. My three rides at the time were a 1983 Nishiki Sport, a 1986 Bianchi Squadra and a 1996 Trek 950 rigid MTB. All three had been upgraded and modified in the Rivendell fashion. In other words comfortable. The handlebars on each at seat level. I had absolutely no need for another bike. But, for the last couple years I was seriously test riding bikes whenever the opportunity presented itself. And with my kids being competitive swimmers, we were on the road a lot, and I had plenty of opportunities. I test rode a lot of bikes in the all-rounder category (ex. Surly CC, Surly LHT in both 26" and 700c, Bianchi Velope, Raliegh's and many others), but nothing fit better or rode better than what I already had.  I figured that if I ever purchased another bicycle it would have to be a "custom" to realized any perceivable gains.

Shortly after our first trip to Rivendell we had a weekend where both kids were out of town at the same time! We jumped on this opportunity and made an appointment with Rivendell for an extended test ride. I left it up to Rivendell whether they set me up with a Hilsen or a Hillborne, and told them right up front I wasn't in the market. We were there for the Betty Foy, and I was just along for another test ride opportunity. When we arrived everything was set up and ready to go. Grant remeasured both of us again to be sure, but the previous measurements were right on.

To make a long story short, we went on a 4-hour test ride! At the end of it all we came home with a Betty Foy, a "double top tubed" green Sam Hillborne, and a couple smiles ear-to-ear. I think what people seem to miss is that the value of product is sometimes greater than the sum of its parts. Yes, there are less expensive alternatives, but I had never felt more comfortable and confident on a bike.

I've been riding the Hillborne for 2.5 years now and have just surpassed 10,000 miles.  I've only ridden my Bianchi Squadra once since acquiring the Hillborne and all the others are just hanging on hooks in the garage.  Yesterday I did a 55 mile RT commute and am enjoying the Hillborne as much today as I did on new bike day.  Maybe even more because I've really got it dialed in.

My philosophy on new bike purchases is that you must test ride before purchasing.  My only exception to this rule would be replacing a bicycle that has been destroyed in a crash with the same exact model.  My philosophy regarding a cost comparison between something like a Surly CC and a Rivendell Sam Hillborne goes like this:  Back in 2012 the Surly Cross Check frame\fork cost $450. The Sam Hillborne frame\fork cost $1,050. Building up both bikes with the same parts the Hillbornewould onlybe $600 more; the difference being the cost of the frame sets. Life is pretty short.  Be sure to get the bicycle that fits and has the features you need.  After that everything else falls into place.  Nothing is more expensive than trying to save a few bucks on the initial purchase and than trying to rectify fit and features.

Just my thoughts.

Matt

On Monday, September 22, 2014 3:02:14 AM UTC-7, Ty Jeske wrote:

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Great story, Matt! I imagine there are more than a few "Just going for a test-ride" folks that have left Walnut Creek with a new bike!

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I always thought the Cross-check was probably more comparable to the Sam, but the LHT isn't far off. All three are smartly designed and versatile. All three can be "lifetime bikes", if you want them to be. I've extensively ridden a Disc Trucker, Cross-check, Atlantis, Romulus, and a few test miles on a Sam. There isn't anything magical about the intrinsic ride quality of the Sam compared to the two Surly models I mentioned, but it does have an extra measure of cosmetic flair, which may or may not be worth the extra cost and wait, depending on your point of view. Despite the lower price of the Surly, I don't believe there's any sacrifice of "quality", which is sometimes implied in any Surly vs Riv discussion. Surly's quality control is the best of any company I've dealt with - they almost never make mistakes.

Here are a few technical details to consider. The Riv uses a 1" quill stem, which has some advantage for quickly raising and lowering the bar, but the quill stems currently available don't have a 31.8 clamp option. Since 25.4/26.0 handlebars are getting fewer everyday, and 31.8 is effectively "standard" now, you'll be opting out of some great handlebar options with a standard quill stem (there are workarounds to solve this problem, but it's better to not have the problem in the first place, IMO). The Surly frames come with a threadless steerer, which makes switching to different bars much easier/cheaper. In general, threaded steerers and quill stems are regarded as outdated in the bicycle industry, and few manufacturers are supporting that design anymore. That makes the Surly somewhat more "future-proof" in regard to headsets, stems, and handlebars. I see the quill stems as a fairly major inconvenience, but, of course, the quill stems have an aesthetic effect that some people prefer, and I can't argue that. A second consideration is how you plan to accessorize the bike. Rivs tend to have rack braze-ons designed around the Nitto racks that they sell, while Surly frames have braze-ons designed around more universal rack designs. The rack thing shouldn't be a deal-breaker, because many racks will fit on the back of a Riv, but it does get difficult if you want, say, a Tubus low-rider rack on the fork of a Riv.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/24/2014 01:10 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:

I always thought the Cross-check was probably more comparable to the Sam, but the LHT isn't far off. All three are smartly designed and versatile. All three can be "lifetime bikes", if you want them to be. I've extensively ridden a Disc Trucker, Cross-check, Atlantis, Romulus, and a few test miles on a Sam. There isn't anything magical about the intrinsic ride quality of the Sam compared to the two Surly models I mentioned, but it does have an extra measure of cosmetic flair, which may or may not be worth the extra cost and wait, depending on your point of view. Despite the lower price of the Surly, I don't believe there's any sacrifice of "quality", which is sometimes implied in any Surly vs Riv discussion. Surly's quality control is the best of any company I've dealt with - they almost never make mistakes.

Here are a few technical details to consider. The Riv uses a 1" quill stem, which has some advantage for quickly raising and lowering the bar, but the quill stems currently available don't have a 31.8 clamp option. Since 25.4/26.0 handlebars are getting fewer everyday, and 31.8 is effectively "standard" now, you'll be opting out of some great handlebar options with a standard quill stem (there are workarounds to solve this problem, but it's better to not have the problem in the first place, IMO). The Surly frames come with a threadless steerer, which makes switching to different bars much easier/cheaper. In general, threaded steerers and quill stems are regarded as outdated in the bicycle industry, and few manufacturers are supporting that design anymore. That makes the Surly somewhat more "future-proof" in regard to headsets, stems, and handlebars. I see the quill stems as a fairly major inconvenience, but, of course, the quill stems have an aesthetic effect that some people prefer, and I can't argue that. A second consideration is how you plan to accessorize the bike. Rivs tend to have rack braze-ons designed around the Nitto racks that they sell, while Surly frames have braze-ons designed around more universal rack designs. The rack thing shouldn't be a deal-breaker, because many racks will fit on the back of a Riv, but it does get difficult if you want, say, a Tubus low-rider rack on the fork of a Riv.

In my personal experience, the biggest issue regarding a "lifetime" bicycle is the ability to adjust your position to physiological changes that occur with time.  Most significant of these, certainly for me and probably for most, has been the need to raise the handlebar position.  In my 30s, I had a 5" drop.  In my 50s, 5cm below the saddle was fine.  By the time I turned 60, as mile 80 rolled around I'd feel as though a railroad spike had been hammered down into the back of my neck, a problem that was solved by raising the bars to seat height.

Step 1 with threadless is to cut the steerer.  And once you have done that, there is no way to make it longer again.   Yes, you could go for more of an up-angle, but unless you started out with a -17 (and odds are you actually started out with an up-angled stem already) you're very limited in how much higher you can go. 

With a quill stem you can not only raise the bars, if necessary you can substitute a stem with a longer quill. 

Let's take this bike as a case in point.



It was originally built for a well known New England randonneur in 1991, for the 100th anniversary PBP.  Here's how he had it set up when I bought it in 2002:



Not quite "slammed," but the stem is easily several inches lower than I could use.  Switching from a "standard" quill length to a Technomic made this frame usable for me.  If it had been threadless, there would have been no way on earth I could have ridden this bike.   Which would have been a terrible shame, because I love this bike.

I think worrying about the future availability of 25.4 or 26.0 handlebars, quill stems and threaded headsets is worrying about the wrong thing.  There are plenty of bars, stems and headsets and I'm confident there will continue to be.  What you need to worry about is future-proofing your ability to fit on the bike long term.  And there, threadless falls on its face.

[Will]

+1.

To which I add:

Riding seasons vary. In WI, for example, unless you wish to install studded tires, the season ends in early December, returns late March. Your body looses elasticity during the off-season. So the first 2-3 weeks in March you need to raise the bars and lower the seat. Not much, but a little. Then as your riding fitness returns, the seat returns to last year's level, and the bars drop, just a bit. This fine tuning matches your body's increasing limberness.

I also notice that I change my cockpit slightly depending on the temperature. In summer, shorts and sandals (and lots of mileage) make it easy and desireable to stretch out. In late fall when it's cold, wearing bulky clothes and winter shoes, reduce mobility, and a somewhat shorter, more upright, cockpit is fits better.

For me, these are always modest adjustments: ~1 cm here or there. But feeling dialed in is nice, particularly when you can do it in less than a minute. Quills make this possible.

[Bill Lindsay]

"What you need to worry about is future-proofing your ability to fit on the bike long term.  And there, threadless falls on its face."

I disagree.  In the special case of 1" threadless with a steel steerer, no matter how short you happened to cut the steerer, you can always get equivalent adjustability to a quill stem......by having the steerer threaded and converting to a quill stem.  ;-)

Bill watching-the-bars-rise-as-the-years-roll-by Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Broach]

​

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Will <waller....@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

For me, these are always modest adjustments: ~1 cm here or there. But feeling dialed in is nice, particularly when you can do it in less than a minute. Quills make this possible. 

Will and others,

It's worth noting that you can quick adjust the newfangled stems' height, too, if you use Sheldon's method and clamp a cable hanger or seatpost collar around the steerer below the stem. That holds the headset adjustment when you remove the stem and shuffle spacers around. I go even further afield when I'm monkeying with fit and remove the spacers entirely, then it's truly as simple as a quill stem, if not as tidy looking.

It's also way outside the norm, so I understand what you're saying.

Best,

joe broach

portland, or

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

For a lot of us, the ideal of a lifetime bike isn't realistic. Tastes often change faster than our bodies do. Anyway, I would point out that a new Surly fork with uncut steerer isn't much more costly than a Nitto quill stem. If you don't cut it too short at the beginning, which a lot of people do (and regret), then there shouldn't be an issue for many years.

I would strongly suggest NOT threading a threadless fork. It seems very unsafe to me

On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 1:22:03 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/24/2014 04:23 PM, Joe Broach wrote:

It's worth noting that you can quick adjust the newfangled stems' height, too, if you use Sheldon's method and clamp a cable hanger or seatpost collar around the steerer below the stem. That holds the headset adjustment when you remove the stem and shuffle spacers around. I go even further afield when I'm monkeying with fit and remove the spacers entirely, then it's truly as simple as a quill stem, if not as tidy looking.

Yes, but those are tiny adjustments.  They address Will's seasonal tweaks, yes, but don't address the long-term changes I was alluding to.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/24/2014 04:19 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I disagree. In the special case of 1" threadless with a steel
> steerer, no matter how short you happened to cut the steerer, you can
> always get equivalent adjustability to a quill stem......by having the
> steerer threaded and converting to a quill stem. ;-)
>

A very special case indeed...

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Of course, if someone is devoted to quill stems, then I would expect that person to be devoted to "traditional" handlebar designs, to the exclusion of newer designs. I personally think the Jones Loop bar is the best all-around bar for my riding. I can't do that with a quill stem. There are a lot more 31.8 bars than there are 26.0 bars nowadays. I prefer to have the option rather than be locked in to a standard that appears to be dying, or at least dwindling.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/24/2014 04:36 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> For a lot of us, the ideal of a lifetime bike isn't realistic. Tastes
> often change faster than our bodies do. Anyway, I would point out that
> a new Surly fork with uncut steerer isn't much more costly than a
> Nitto quill stem. If you don't cut it too short at the beginning,
> which a lot of people do (and regret), then there shouldn't be an
> issue for many years.
>

And a new fork of comparable quality to a Nitto stem will cost over six
times as much, about as much as a new frame of comparable (or even
superior) quality to the Surly frame, based on what we learned in the
discussion of the Lyon forks. Basically, I interpret all this as saying
frames made for threadless forks should be considered disposable. And
I'm sure there are plenty of production frames out there that
legitimately could be considered disposable tools. Certainly the LHT
qualifies. But I don't consider a frame like my Longstaff a disposable
tool.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I'm talking about replacing the stock for on a LHT with the same exact fork with a longer steerer, if aging or injury (or whatever) makes it desirable to have higher bars. Upgrading to a more magical fork is another matter. Robert Pirsig had a famous book about a guy who drove himself insane trying to define "quality", so I won't try to argue whether or not a Surly fork is of the same quality as a Nitto stem.

Interesting point about disposability. To an extent, you are right. This doesn't mean you're likely to wear out your LHT anytime soon, but let's say you wreck it somehow. No problem, for $400ish, you can get another one just like it tomorrow. For more precious frames, like your Longstaff or most Rivs, replacement will be more costly in terms of time and money.

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

One of the things I LOVE about threadless forks/headsets is their adjustability. Swapping stems and adding spacers is a quick job, and sooooo much more pleasant than unwrapping bars (and inevitably scratching them up pulling them through a quill stem). Threadless stems come in a plethora of sizes and are easy and cheap to swap out when I need one. Much more so than Nitto quill stems. The trick is leaving the stem long enough to have the option of putting on spacers and moving the stem up.

My $.02

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/24/2014 05:01 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:

I'm talking about replacing the stock for on a LHT with the same exact fork with a longer steerer, if aging or injury (or whatever) makes it desirable to have higher bars. Upgrading to a more magical fork is another matter. Robert Pirsig had a famous book about a guy who drove himself insane trying to define "quality", so I won't try to argue whether or not a Surly fork is of the same quality as a Nitto stem.

But you certainly wouldn't argue that a Surly fork is the same quality as a Jeff Lyon fork, would you?

Interesting point about disposability. To an extent, you are right. This doesn't mean you're likely to wear out your LHT anytime soon, but let's say you wreck it somehow. No problem, for $400ish, you can get another one just like it tomorrow. For more precious frames, like your Longstaff or most Rivs, replacement will be more costly in terms of time and money.

If even possible.  In the case of the Longstaff, impossible, since he passed away in 2003.  

On the other hand, there's a lot to be said for using a disposable tool on a mission that is apt to be potentially hazardous or at a minimum is likely to lead to rough handling, and touring can certainly be that.   I'd rather use my Kogswell P/R for touring than my MAP Randonneur, even though Mitch Pryor does make a lovely add-on low-rider rack that mounts to the front bag support for the current generation of Randonneur Project bikes.

On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 3:51:33 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 09/24/2014 04:36 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> For a lot of us, the ideal of a lifetime bike isn't realistic. Tastes
> often change faster than our bodies do. Anyway, I would point out that
> a new Surly fork with uncut steerer isn't much more costly than a
> Nitto quill stem. If you don't cut it too short at the beginning,
> which a lot of people do (and regret), then there shouldn't be an
> issue for many years.
>

And a new fork of comparable quality to a Nitto stem will cost over six
times as much, about as much as a new frame of comparable (or even
superior) quality to the Surly frame, based on what we learned in the
discussion of the Lyon forks.  Basically, I interpret all this as saying
frames made for threadless forks should be considered disposable.  And
I'm sure there are plenty of production frames out there that
legitimately could be considered disposable tools. Certainly the LHT
qualifies.  But I don't consider a frame like my Longstaff a disposable
tool.

[Philip Williamson]

Leaving the steerer long isn't even a trick... Simply do nothing, and it magically stays long!

I have and love bikes with quill stems and with threadless stems. I've had my Bontrager (threadless) for almost 14 years, so it's looking like a Buy It For Life bike. And the fork may well be almost as irreplaceable as Steve's Longstaff fork.

Stem adjustment is something I almost never do on most of my bikes. My quill bikes, never, my newer threadless bike every few months as I dial different elements. Bearing preload seems easy, once you learn to use your body weight, and which thing (stem or star nut) to tighten first. Maybe I'm missing some secret difficulty?

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Joe Bernard]

I always purchase lifetime bikes. Problem is, I always sell them for different lifetime bikes ;)

[Bill Lindsay]

'til death do us part....or some other bike catches my eye

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

I used to buy bikes for my lifetime, until I realized that each and every bike I've had has ridden differently, and I've liked the difference.  Two years ago I lost a Trek 560 that I absolutely loved.  I was going to get a custom-built replacement, but that ultimately proved unworkable.  Consequently, I bought a Velo Orange Randonneur.  I like it a lot.  I also liked my Kogswell D58--threadless stem and all.  I just didn't need it anymore.

This is all by way of saying that variety is a spice of life.

When my next bike gets shot out from under me--if--I will not worry about a perfect replacement.  Because whatever I find will be as good as, if not better, than the old bike.

Lifetime, schmifetime.  They're all tools, they're all bikes, and they're all meant to be ridden into the ground.  If you want one with fancy paint, that's your deal, and I can completely understand.

[Eric Platt]

Much like guitars, never found anything close to a lifetime bike.  In a related matter, a friend of mine has been through more custom guitars and custom bikes than I can count.  At least 4 custom bikes I know of.  His present passion? Long Haul Trucker with 26" wheels. 

I have no problem getting the bars high enough on my bikes with threadless stems.  Now, the 6" or so above the saddle I occasionally put the bars on my Hillborne?  Nope.  But two or three inches above, not a problem.  

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/24/2014 09:00 PM, Eric Platt wrote:

Much like guitars, never found anything close to a lifetime bike. 

"Lots of people figured the 54-year-old Gibson Les Paul electric guitar would fetch more than its $20,000 to $30,000 pre-auction estimate, but no one knew how much more.

"The answer: a lot. Two Saturdays ago, Gil Southworth Jr. paid $140,000 for the guitar I wrote about recently. Add in the premium paid to Quinn’s Auction Galleries in Falls Church and the price tag came to $165,200. Why, with that money, Gil could have bought 1,652 brand-new $100 ukuleles (a sobering thought)"

Sure as hell sounds like a "lifetime guitar" to me.

[Tony McG]

Last Summer I put together a beautiful LHT that I haven't ridden since I bought my Atlantis.   The only experience I have with the Sam is a quick ride around the block in Walnut Creek a few years ago; I wish I had taken it for a longer ride.  The double top tube does not bother me, but I prefer cantilever or v-brakes over the caliper brakes offered on the new Sams.

Jim has a good point regarding the threadless vs threaded fork, because there are so many more handle bar options available.  I am still trying to figure out how to adjust the headset preload on my Atlantis.

[ted]

So of course you should do as you like and go threadless ever and always. I see absolutely no reason why you shouldn't.

But some of the rest of us find that the bars we want work with quill stems, and find the range of quill stems available perfectly adequate. Though threadless has dominated the market for what 15 years I don't think the last 5 or 10 have seen dramatic reductions in the availability of quill stems etc. I believe your implied prediction of their imminent demise is premature, and see no need to shun them for fear of being locked into something unobtainable.

Folks explaining how you can adjust bar height on threadless setups, and how its really easy, remind me of when I told people that gluing tubulars was simple. Easy is in the eye of the doer, and (aside from the advantages of removable face plates) I can't believe dealing with threadless is as easy as the quill system is. I think spacers above the stem on a threadless setup looks bad. You say I can buy a new fork if I want to raise my bars an inch? Yea, well you go ahead with that plan but I don't think I will.

[Philip Williamson]

Sounds more like an investment to me.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Jim Bronson]

haha Andrew great comments

I thought my Paul Taylor custom was going to be a lifetime bike, it's
very fast but it's punishing and you can not get anyting over 23mm
under the front fork. The other problem is that it TT is 66mm C-C and
it's threadless so even with the itty bittiest stem is more than I
want. And it's hard to get any up angle when you're using a tiny
threadless stem. A quill with 50mm extension would have been so much
better. So I got the thing repainted, err powdercoated, and now I'm
selling it.

Then there's the Eisentraut, I thought it would be a piece of history
that I would keep for a lifetime. Now, I'm kind of wondering why I
have it, ifn I'm not going to build it up and ride it. The problem is
that it's a touring frame, with none of the modern accoutrements for
touring like eyelets for racks and so forth.

But anyway :)

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Conway Bennett]

This thread was interesting at first but got way off topic BUT there is a green 56 cm Sam on Ebay and it's in FL. One thing to glean from this thread is that there is not one bike to rule them all. Buy it>try it>sell it.

FW,

CBB

"Sam rider who just bought a Quickbeam that will replace his Cross Check that was supposed to be the last bike he'd ever buy FIVE bikes ago."

[Ty Jeske]

@conway,
Thanks! The Sam you saw on EBay is actually right here in Tampa. I sent him a message to see if I can see it first.

[captaincon...@gmail.com]

You can always buy it, and if you like it, but absolutely want it new or the 55 cm 1TT just resell it. You should be able to move it quick and get your money back. But for the price of a repaint, which isn't necessary but'll essentially make it new, you'll come out of this for less than a new Sam+shipping with little liability.

I'd buy it and leave it alone though. Then you won't agonize over that first scratch. I really like the green and the non creamed headtube. I find it understated and the lugwork speaks for itself. You won't regret the auxiliary TT either.


Fair winds,

Captain Conway Bennett

> On Sep 25, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Ty Jeske <tyj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> @conway,
> Thanks! The Sam you saw on EBay is actually right here in Tampa. I sent him a message to see if I can see it first.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/cPNXPpW-E-s/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Ty Jeske]

Thanks again for posting the Ebay Sam frame offer and for everyone's thoughtful help. Yesterday afternoon I went to the seller's house. He showed me his stable, complete with the frame for sale and his three built up Sams. They were all 56cm double TT versions and a little tall for me, so I think the 55cm will be perfect. They rode like a dream, and the quality and craftsmanship were outstanding. I was surprised by how thin and light the frame was. I never would have guessed from the ride - the bike feels sturdy but yielding. You guys know that already though. The point is, I'm convinced this is the bike for me. I will call them this week to discuss sizing and dimensions. Any final words of advice?

[grrlyrida]

I knew once you rode one, you would be sold. The same thing happened to me when I rode a Betty Foy for the first time. There was no way I could stay satisfied with my 2006 2200 Aluminum/carbon Trek. I wanted 40's on my bike, so I went with a custom mixte. I've had it for a year now and I've ridden the Trek one time. It's now for sell. I also have a 85 Bridgestone which I've been using like a cargo bike and as a bike I'll lock up in downtown LA. I put a porteur rack on it and have transported everything for Xmas trees to DVR's on it. Maybe you can use the Schwinn as a cargo or grocery getter.