Larger 650B Homer's

[Tony DeFilippo]

I've got to call uncle, can anyone link me up to a PBH chart for the 650B Homer's?

Also any background on how Riv decided to close out the Saluki's and add the 650B Homer's?

[hsmitham]

Tony,

Don't know if this is what your looking for? On the second perhaps someone else can answer that. I'd be curious to hear the explanation.

~Hugh

[Tony DeFilippo]

Hugh, 

The geometry sheet is definitely usefull in comparing the different frame's but what I was hoping for was a PBH range recommendation assigned to Homer sizes, like is found in most of the bike descriptions on the main site.  There are an awful lot of Homer sizes of course, and they probably just want you to call and have a conversation about it.  Idle curiosity...

Tony

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[Christopher Chen]

I think you can go by the standover height, that is, get as high as you can. My PBH is roughly 83cm and Riv put me on a 57cm Homer.

cc

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[Peter Morgano]

Just do it the Rivendell way, take the max pbh listed for the frame, if your pbh is even slightly bigger you have the perfect size, haha. It sounds simple and crazy but I just went with it on the bombadil and have been very happy.

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[Peter Morgano]

Ah yes, meant standover not pbh.

[Hugh Smitham]

What Peter said is how I determine frame size relative to my PBH which is 84 cm and I went with a 58 cm with a stand over of 82.2 cm.

What's interesting IIRC your riding a 64 cm Atlantis but want something a bit smaller which I  imagine would still put you outside the Hilsen's 650b stock frame sizes...unless they have some larger ones hanging in the rafters they're not talking about? Or maybe you'd have to have a Riv custom. In which case that Rambler is looking pretty nice. Or the Tig welded Boulder Bikes All Road 650b  frame set for $1435.

Still waiting on that second saluki question.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Tony DeFilippo <vpi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Tony DeFilippo]

Hugh,

I think you and Peter are right on wrt stand over/pbh as the guide line.  I just don't understand why the Homer wouldn't have the same type of info available for sizing that the other Riv's have.

I definitely want to get out to CO or find someone I can test ride an All Road from at some point, it looks like a great frame.

It's too bad that there isn't a clear, non-custom Riv option for a ~90pbh person in 650B these days. (Got to refer back to Grant's post about the 'simple-one' where he mentions this kind of sentiment where you pine for a bike you didn't buy when it was available! :) )

Tony

[Hugh Smitham]

Tony,

Was there a larger Hilsen 650b made? This is a really good question...

I'm presuming as in the other end of the spectrum (smaller sized frames) there is less demand for bikes in larger stand overs. Rivendell has learned a lesson or two in moving/selling those frames at either end...a buddy of mine bought a 47 cm Hilsen for half of what I paid for my Hilsen lucky so & so...it's the old distribution model where businesses would project what sizes and number of units they needed and rolled the dice they'd all sell.

These days the distribution chain is more controlled (thanks to computers) and you see less actual deals because of leftover stock. Instead retailers (not talking bike frames here) mark up their products 2.5 to 3 times wholesale with the notion that at the end of the season they can mark down and recover their investment.  Rivendell works off the old model because that's 1.)  the way the frame & fork industry operates in small batches (unless your Trek or Specialized) and 2.) I'm also assuming here they figure on doing customs for the sizes outside the average these days (not bashing Riv here) and deferring the financial burden to the buyer of their non standard sizes. I never really realized that my Hilsen was the largest 650b they listed/produced.

I also know that you know all this it's just me being didactic for my own sake.  

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

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[Peter Morgano]

Wasn't there a 60cm 650b Saluki? I think that is the biggest 650b bike Rivendell ever made, but my knowledge isn't all encompassing so please someone correct me if I am wrong.

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[Bill Lindsay]

Tony

The Saluki Geometry Chart is here:

Saluki Geometry

The Saluki was offered all the way up to 62cm, with 650B wheels.  That's the bike you want if you want 650B and don't want to convert a 700c Rivendell and insist on remaining tall.  :)

The geo of the Salukis and the 650B Hilsens are identical.  Why did they morphe the Saluki into 650B Hilsens?  I think just to simplify the buying process, because the bikes really are intended to be used the same way.  Why did the morphe cause Rivendell to ditch the 60 and the 62 frame size?  I don't know for sure, but I believe it has to do with Grant's general philosophy that wheelsize and body size should be related.  The biggest humans get the biggest frames and the biggest wheels.  The shorter folks get smaller frames and smaller wheels and the middle sizes are in a transition area.  

If I were you, and I was determined to own a 650B Rivendell, I would call them and tell them that I want to buy a 62cm 650B Hilsen.  They have the design done.  They have a vendor that makes the 650B bikes.  They have all the lugs, etc.  I can't think of a technical reason why they couldn't build it.  Maybe there is fixturing work that they haven't done at Waterford for that size.  Maybe they would simply say "no" on philosophical grounds and assure you that you'll do better on a 63cm 700c Hilsen.  

And then, to your question about mapping PBH to bike size on the Hilsen page, they absolutely do have that as a cheat-sheet at the showroom.  I've looked at it numerous times.  It was right there on the wall.  They absolutely don't mind idle curiosity, so don't be shy.  Or just email one of the guys.  They are always nice about it.  Even if you emailed them and said "I'm a 90PBH, and I really want to buy a 650B bike.  Would a 62cm Saluki on the second hand market fit me OK?", I promise they will respond honestly.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:15:46 PM UTC-8, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

[Bruce Herbitter]

Additionally, Saluki could be had with cantis while homer is a side pull caliper.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/30/2013 01:51 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:

Wasn't there a 60cm 650b Saluki?

There certainly was.  Here's one, that used to belong to me:



Now as to why anyone would ever imagine this frame looks too large for the wheels, I just can't imagine.

[Peter Morgano]

Looks perfect to me!

[Deacon Patrick]

Proportions look almost identical to my 62cm Hunq.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Hugh Smitham]

Steve,

That's a gorgeous bike...why did you let that go! I wish my Hilsen had canti brakes and it doesn't look odd with 650b.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/30/2013 06:20 PM, Hugh Smitham wrote:

Steve,

That's a gorgeous bike...why did you let that go! I wish my Hilsen had canti brakes and it doesn't look odd with 650b.

To get this one:



This is one of Mitch Pryor's MAP Randonneur Project bikes, also a 60 cm.  I swapped all the components over from the Saluki except for the fenders, saddle, seatpost and front rack.

[Bill Lindsay]

"Now as to why anyone would ever imagine this frame looks too large for the wheels, I just can't imagine."

I don't think Grant has ever said anything about it looking wrong (and I agree with you, that your former Saluki looked great at 650B).  Even though your 'Luki was too stiff for you and had too much trail and flop for you, it was a great looking bike (despite the rear fender surgery).  ;-)

I hope it remains a great-looking bike for its current owner.

[Hugh Smitham]

Nice, I get it. I like the black paint without a contrast color and the XTR crank among all the other nice touches. Which tires are those? They look like slick Hetres.  Does the frame have internal routing? On the front it looks like you ran the wires on the inside of the fork or I maybe I'm just seeing the cyclo-computer wires.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

[blakcloud]

My guess is the tires are shaved Hetres. You can find some information here.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/30/2013 06:58 PM, Hugh Smitham wrote:
> Nice, I get it. I like the black paint without a contrast color and
> the XTR crank among all the other nice touches. Which tires are those?

Red Hetres

> They look like slick Hetres. Does the frame have internal routing?

No, but there are guide loops inside the fork blade and on the rack. I
don't have any photos that show them.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/30/2013 06:58 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> "Now as to why anyone would ever imagine this frame looks too large
> for the wheels, I just can't imagine."
>
> I don't think Grant has ever said anything about it looking wrong

Lots of folks make the assertion that the frames look too large/wheels
look too small as an explanation for why makers such as Riv switch to
700C on the larger size frames. If Grant has ever explained his shift
to this position I don't recall it.

> (and I agree with you, that your former Saluki looked great at 650B).
> Even though your 'Luki was too stiff for you and had too much trail
> and flop for you, it was a great looking bike (despite the rear fender
> surgery). ;-)
>
> I hope it remains a great-looking bike for its current owner.

He is (or was) on the list, so perhaps he can speak up.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/30/2013 07:06 PM, blakcloud wrote:

My guess is the tires are shaved Hetres. You can find some information here.

No, just plain old ordinary regular ones.  Any shaving was done by way of natural wear.

[Bill Lindsay]

"Lots of folks make the assertion that the frames look too large/wheels 
look too small as an explanation for why makers such as Riv switch to 
700C on the larger size frames."

Well if you show me somebody who thinks your Saluki or your M.A.P. look out of proportion, I'll show you somebody who needs to have his/her head examined.  Those both look dynamite. 

"If Grant has ever explained his shift 
to this position I don't recall it. "

I'm not sure I can tell which position you are referring to.  The position that wheelsize should in some way track with frame size goes back to the first Rivendell model that came with multiple wheelsizes across it's size range, which would be the Atlantis?  That bike had and has 26" wheels in one end of the size range and 700c in the large end.  I don't know about pre-Atlantis bikes.  I think of the Road Standard being strictly 700, and the All Rounder being strictly 26", but I don't know for sure.  

Variable wheelsize is a standard part of Riv, and as far as I know is still completely unique to Rivendell.  How many Riv models have only been one wheelsize?  The Roadeo, the Legolas, the pre-Atlantis models, and I think that's all.  Heck, the Betty Foy came with three wheelsizes!  Is there another model of bicycle anywhere in the world that comes with different wheelsizes as a function of framesize?  I don't count the Long Haul Trucker, because that's a choice between wheelsizes in almost every frame size.  

If you mean the position that the cut-off between 650B and 700 should be at 58cm, then yeah I don't think he's ever explained that.  I'm about your height Steve (75.5 SH), but bought a 58 Hilsen and put a longish stem on it to stay 650B.  Your 'Luki would have fit me great, and you are still free to ship your M.A.P. to me for evaluation anytime you like.  

The idea that there is a line and that wheelsize should grow with frame size is an opinion that I would call a Riv exclusive in production bikes.  Where the cutoffs are seems to be more arbitrary from my perspective and Grant places those by instinct.  I still suspect that if there were a motivated customer who really wanted a 62cm 650B A Homer Hilsen, that Rivendell could make that happen, just like a 64cm Atlantis could be made to happen and an anysize Legolas could be made to happen.  I sometimes toy with the idea of selling my Hilsen and leaning on Rivendell to get me a Canti-Hilsen.  I bet I could make that happen, also.  

[Evan Baird]

I've asked Grant what he though about a larger 650b Marcos. I love how the little ones look with nice plump tires, but the BB is a bit low for a conversion. Maybe make a 54 and a 56cm for 650b based on the smaller bikes geometry. I think it would still be pretty sporty. Seemed like he was open to the idea.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8460/7986804590_483aa6b08f_c.jpg

On Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:15:46 PM UTC-8, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

[Hugh Smitham]

>Where the cutoffs are seems to be more arbitrary from my perspective and Grant places those by instinct.

It must be arbitrary as the Hilsen switches back and forth starting from the 55cm @ 622 then back to 584 on the 56cm and so on up to the 58cm  and after that remains 622. Is there another Riv production bike that does that rather than a straight cut off? Why did Grant decide to switch from 650b exclusively on the Saluki (another example of a Riv production bike with one wheel size) then change that format on the Hilsen?

The only reasons I've ever heard for different wheel sizes 1.) Toe overlap and 2.) Aesthetic. I understand the first and the second doesn't really make sense as can be seen by Steve's previous Saluki.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

--

[Don Compton]

That is my dream 650b bike.

[Michael]

Tony,

Why do you prefer 650b over 700c? 

[Christopher Chen]

YEAH, and what's wrong with carbs anyway?! <grin>

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Michael <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tony,

Why do you prefer 650b over 700c? 

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[Mike Schiller]

On Monday, December 30, 2013 4:35:46 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:"

 

 Is there another model of bicycle anywhere in the world that comes with different wheelsizes as a function of framesize?  

only two  I can think of off-hand are the Rawland Nordavinden. 650B in the smaller size  and the Soma Saga and Buena Vista, 26" in smaller sizes.

signed... Mr Smartypants ( mike)

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes!  I thought of the Nordavinden after posting, but I didn't want to reply to myself.  Chapeau!

[Steve Palincsar]

The Ocean Air Rambler also uses 650B in the smaller sizes and goes to 700C for the larger; also one whose name I've blanked on -- I keep thinking Penguin but I know that's wrong, the one I saw at NAHBS in Richmond was blue in color and for a time there were only two stock 650B bicycles, the Boulder and this one -- originally was 650B only in the small sizes, but I think the most recent batches have offered all sizes in 650B.  The name will probably come to me in 20 or 30 minutes.

[Shoji Takahashi]

Pelican? (Box Dog Bikes) I think it's offered in 650B and 700C.

[Leslie]

Hugh,
The Saluki was 650b, and the Hilsen was 700c, but otherwise the same; because the functionality was the same, the lines were merged into the Hilsen; the overlap was kept to give a bit of a choice, but the upper end of the Saluki-side was trimmed down a bit...

If someone politely asked and paid for it, couldn't canti-posts be added to a Hilsen?

[Tony DeFilippo]

Hey Michael,

Well, couple reasons on the 650B preference though I'd be the first to admit that I don't really have enough run time with some higher quality 700C tires to make a great comparison.  Just so I'm very clear about what my frame of reference is this is what I've ridden ;

- 650B convertered Trek with 42mm EL Hetre's

- 700C Jack Brown 33.33mm on the Trek and a Surly Cross Check

- 700C Nomad Resist 45mm (really 42mm) on the Atlantis

- 26"x 2" Big Apple's on a Univega Tandem, MB-5 and XO-3

- 27"x 1.25" GatorSkins on a Burley Tandem

My reasons for liking the 650B;

- The EL Hetre's are the best tire I've ridden, and it's not close

- Slight advantage in inherent strength due to the smaller size

- I have two frames that are a bit large for me, 64 cm Trek and 64 cm Atlantis, the 700C tires on the Atlantis make me feel to tall in the saddle, the Trek w/ 650B feels much better

- Goldilocks Syndrome... just the right size, not 26", not 700C... I was thinking it would be sweet to have 650B only wheel's between my wife and my bikes plus a tandem eventually

That's about it really, definitely not scientific.  And given that I've just gotten my XO-3 (26") up and running I'm by no means a wheel size zealot...  I'm running a 26er, 650B and 700C bike side by side by side right now.  I've built dyno hub's for both my 650B and 700C wheelset even.  I'm sure that on the right size frame a 700C would suite my needs very well, but I'd still miss that Hetre tire. Gotta try the Soma C Line tires...

In case you are interested, here is the latest on the XO-3 project. - http://dr2dc.blogspot.com/2013/12/xo-3-evolving-and-pour-over-coffee.html

Tony

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/30/2013 10:25 PM, Shoji Takahashi wrote:

Pelican? (Box Dog Bikes) I think it's offered in 650B and 700C.

Yes, that's it.  Box Dog Pelican.  I knew it was a bird whose name began with P...

[justin...@gmail.com]

The Long Haul Truckers was 26"/700c small/large until a few years ago when they did a full range of 26". The Pelican was initially 650b only in small sizes, when ip asked for a larger (57ish) in 650b the reply was "Why, you hear that's a cool size? It's only really good for smaller bikes." Thankfully they have since changed their minds to a whole run a 650b Pelicans up to 60 I think.

-Justin

[Thomas B]

Here is a nice looking 60cm 650b Pelican.

http://www.boyzonthehoods.com/new-randonneuse-day/

I think 60cm 650b looks good on all the bikes discussed here, but there is a point, at ~62-63cm when the head tubes gets so large that things look a bit out of proportion to my eye. Having said that it's difficult to put an particular number on it because I think the bend of the fork influences the look too, e.g. some of the larger MAP's  still look nice. There is a 65cm his flkr recently.

I've read about the downsides of long head tubes for frame flex. Maybe that's part of the reason Grant likes the DTT.

[Thomas B]

Here is are some pictures of a well-proportioned (to me) 60cm 650b Pelican:

http://www.boyzonthehoods.com/new-randonneuse-day/

The other bikes mentioned in this thread also look good in my opinion. However, I think there is a size (~62-63cm) when the head tube starts looking too long. It's not an exact point because I think the position of bend of the fork influences things. For instance a recent 65cm 650b rando bike on MAP cycles flkr looks good. 

I guess a long head tube also brings excessive frame-flex into consideration - something Grant might address with a DTT.

Tom

On Tuesday, December 31, 2013 4:22:32 AM UTC-8, justin...@gmail.com wrote:

[Michael]

Tony,

OK, I see. Makes a lot of sense.

That would be cool to have swappable wheels/bits/parts with the wife, too. Cool idea.

I have a 700c bike and I feel like I am seated closer to the ground on my 650b bike, too. I'm sure its more than just wheels that contribute to that, but the 650b bikes I have feel far more stable and have better handling than the 700c bike I have.

 Do you mean that you built the whole dynamo hub wheel yourself?

I have been thinking of getting a dyno light system, but they are so expensive. Maybe one day.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/31/2013 06:38 PM, Michael wrote:
>
> I have been thinking of getting a dyno light system, but they are so
> expensive. Maybe one day.

There are several dyno hubs that cost no more than plain ordinary hubs.

[Peter Morgano]

My whole Dyno setup from longleaf was only 350ish dollars, that's with lights and all. Plenty of non Dyno wheels will cost you that and more.

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[justin...@gmail.com]

Additionally you can grab a full wheel from Handspun for 150-200. They're great!

-J

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

That’s one of the nicest looking bikes I’ve ever laid eyes on, Steve.

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2013 6:30 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Larger 650B Homer's

 

On 12/30/2013 06:20 PM, Hugh Smitham wrote:

Steve,

 

That's a gorgeous bike...why did you let that go! I wish my Hilsen had canti brakes and it doesn't look odd with 650b.

 

To get this one:



This is one of Mitch Pryor's MAP Randonneur Project bikes, also a 60 cm.  I swapped all the components over from the Saluki except for the fenders, saddle, seatpost and front rack.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/01/2014 08:54 AM, Allingham II, Thomas J wrote:

That’s one of the nicest looking bikes I’ve ever laid eyes on, Steve.

Thanks.  There are always many beautiful bikes on view in Mitch Pryor's photostream.

[reynoldslugs]

Steve, that MAP is a true and lovely classic.

I also have a larger 650B bike - - a 62 cm Ebisu randonneur, with 650B wheels. Here's a picture (my obligatory Wohler Bridge Shot):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/8525565763/in/set-72157632906410829

I think the proportions work fine, especially with fenders. 

The MAPS are gorgeous, and Mitch is still on my shortlist for possible future bikes. Living in the Bay Area, I decided to go with an Ebisu from Jitensha Design - - it was one of Hiroshi Imura's last builds before he retired and moved back to Japan. 

happy new year,

Max

[Patrick Moore]

Both the bikes in the attached photo are 58s. While I do think there are aesthetic absolutes, I believe that one's idea of proper proportions between bike wheels and frames is largely a matter of familiarity and that there is a great deal of leeway before things become objectively awkward. To my eyes, neither bike below looks awkward.

I have to add though that my beau ideal of cycling aesthetics is the classic, steel track bike, with non-anatomic bar:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rranYD_rpp0/Ucfta_NnpNI/AAAAAAAAB_A/dtYlXYQAIbk/s1600/ADRIANCF003176+(1600x1284).jpg

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Thomas B <darcyspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is are some pictures of a well-proportioned (to me) 60cm 650b Pelican:

http://www.boyzonthehoods.com/new-randonneuse-day/

The other bikes mentioned in this thread also look good in my opinion. However, I think there is a size (~62-63cm) when the head tube starts looking too long. It's not an exact point because I think the position of bend of the fork influences things. For instance a recent 65cm 650b rando bike on MAP cycles flkr looks good. 

I guess a long head tube also brings excessive frame-flex into consideration - something Grant might address with a DTT.

--

Burque (NM)

 

Resumes that get interviews:

http://www.resumespecialties.com/

[Patrick Moore]

Forgot to add that I've not felt any bad handling due to the green one's long head tube.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/01/2014 12:39 PM, reynoldslugs wrote:
> Steve, that MAP is a true and lovely classic.

Thanks. Mitch does a nice job, and the design is indeed classic.

>
> I also have a larger 650B bike - - a 62 cm Ebisu randonneur, with 650B
> wheels. Here's a picture (my obligatory Wohler Bridge Shot):
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/8525565763/in/set-72157632906410829
>
> I think the proportions work fine, especially with fenders.

Looks grand to me. And you're right: fenders make a big difference. A
650B wheel with a big tire like a Hetre and big wide chrome fenders over
them actually looks larger than a 700C wheel without a fender, when it
comes to "filling up the space in the frame."

>
> The MAPS are gorgeous, and Mitch is still on my shortlist for possible
> future bikes. Living in the Bay Area, I decided to go with an Ebisu
> from Jitensha Design - - it was one of Hiroshi Imura's last builds
> before he retired and moved back to Japan.

Can't go wrong with either of those!

[frank_a]

When I ordered my custom Grant and I were discussing 650b v. 700. (I owned a 60 Saluki at the time) He asked if I planned on using fenders. My answer was no and then the discussion moved to 700C, which is what I ended up with.
 I own a 58 Saluki as well which i bought to use with the Schwalbe "Fatties" and the proportions are fine with those tires. By the way, the earliest Salukis (which means the 60's and 62's) won't accept the "Fatties". The proper size Saluki for me with normal sized tires is the 60. With 38's or 42's the 58cm looks great for a saddle height about 1 or 2 cm's lower than mine (75.5~). Steve P. is right, if I install fenders it would clean up the look, at least for the classic 650b French look.
In my opinion the only reason to choose 650b over 700c in frames larger than 59 or 60 is to uses Hetres. The Hetre is great but there are plenty of great riding 700c tires.

[frank_a]

Here a link to the 58 Saluki with a saddle height of 75.5:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8531240@N06/11697804214/

- Frank

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/01/2014 07:52 PM, frank_a wrote:
> In my opinion the only reason to choose 650b over 700c in frames larger than 59 or 60 is to uses Hetres. The Hetre is great but there are plenty of great riding 700c tires.

What are the 700Cx42 equivalents to the Hetre? If there are so many,
why do they keep importuning Jan with requests to make the Hetre in 700C?

[frank_a]

Steve,
I think I said that the reason would be to use the Hetre, not that there was an equivalent 700 x 42. Although it's only 32 wide, I don't think anyone will say that the 700c Cypress is not a great riding tire. I've ridden it " off the beaten path" plenty of times and loved it. I've had nothing but excellent experiences on Pasela 700x 37's and have a good supply stashed away. And if Jan ever has a "Hetre" in 700 x 42 produced, I'd buy it and im sure I'd love it.
I like 650b, a lot, but for me and what I do with a bicycle, my cycling joy hasn't been diminished by spending the majority of my riding time on 700c.

- Frank

[Tony DeFilippo]

Michael,

I did build up the wheels myself, with some qa from a much better qualified wheel builder. I've found wheel building to be incredibly satisfying and surprisingly 'do-able' but I've also had the advantage of a patient mechanic friend and tools access at my co-op.

Dyno hubs/light systems are really sweet...I highly recommend the latest generation B&M Cyo Premium.

I'd be one more in line for some Extra Leger 38-42mm, 700C tires!!! :)

[Jim Cloud]

Hi Steve,
How do you like your Berthoud saddle (I guess it's an Aspin model) versus the Brook B.17 you had on your Saluki?

Jim

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/02/2014 10:37 AM, Jim Cloud wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> How do you like your Berthoud saddle (I guess it's an Aspin model)
> versus the Brook B.17 you had on your Saluki?
>

I like them both. The saddle that was on the Saluki is on my Kogswell
P/R touring bike now (the seat rails on the old B.17 that was on that
bike snapped while on a ride last year).

[C.J. Filip]

Frank_a's former mentioned 60cm Saluki.  I think he and I are about the same PBH.