Introduction and Sam Hillborne / AHH Sizing Advice

[Avery Wilson]

Hello Group!

My name is Avery Wilson. I've chimed in on a few discussions over the past year, but I've been reading the group pretty consistently for a year or so.

I currently have a 56cm Sam Hillborne (one of the blue headtube web specials from last year). 

See a pic here.

I've been riding the bike since early last summer. I MOSTLY love it!  I love the comfort, the laid back geometry, the high bars, the aesthetics, etc. etc.  However, I've been wondering if its too small for me.  My PBH of 88 put me right in between the 56 and the 60cm, and as you can see from the picture, I've got an "immodest" amount of seatpost showing. :)

If I replace it (advice solicited here!), I've been thinking of getting an AHH, and effectively "combine" my Sam and another more roadish (Velo Orange Randonneur that's too small for me as well) into one bike to rule them all. The Homer seems more suited to the type of riding I do anyway - all day rambles, quicker short road rides, occasional gravel, not much dirt (I've got a sweet 29er for that), occasional S24O, but no real touring.  Double top tube Sam may be overkill anyway!  

It seems I would be in between a 61cm and a 63cm on the Hilsen if you use the Saddle Height - 15-17cm method.  Does anyone with a similar PBH have any experience with 61-63cm AHH bikes?  I feel like the 61 would be great, but I want to avoid chickening out and getting another too-small bike again, thus I consider the 63...

General comments, questions, and observations are welcome!

Avery "first-time-new-topic-poster" Wilson

[cyclotourist]

Hi Avery, the bike looks great! Sams have a sloping top tube, so you're going to have more post showing than on a Homer. As pictured, it looks fine.

FYI, I have an 89 PBH and ride 60 to 61cm Riv frames happily. For me having the the top tube length dialed in at 590mm (+/-5mm) is what I look for. A 60cm Sam would be really long for me.

Cheers,
David

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

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[Joe Bernard]

I think your best bet is to talk to Grant when you decide to purchase. You probably ordered your Sam from a limited supply of specials, so didn't have many options in your size range. An Hilsen purchase would be built-to-order in exactly the size you need, and you can expect the Riv crew to lean towards the bigger end of frames you can fit.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[hsmitham]

Avery,

What both of these fine gentlemen said is correct. Since I have a shorter PBH I can't speak to the larger sized Homer, however I do ride a 58cm Homer and it is the most versatile bike I've ever owned. With the right tires it's a fairly fast road warrior, with the Rumpkin's (Soma is supposed to be releasing a 40ish mm knobby tire soon)  I run it's an off road warrior for S240's. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/coconutbill/13426677245/in/faves-pedalpusher61/

When I purchased the AHH from Riv I was skeptical about sizing up...oh how right they are.  

These day's Homer will be doing duty as a daily road bike and the soon to be finished Atlantis will take over the heavy off road stuff. If I had to pick one bike that can do a variety of things well, leaning towards the road then the AHH is the rig. All that said the Hillborne is a worthy bicycle and the amount of silver showing isn't on the ridiculous side. 

~Hugh 

On Tuesday, April 1, 2014 8:21:33 AM UTC-7, Avery Wilson wrote:

[Hugh Smitham]

Where are my manners, Avery welcome to the group.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

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[Minh]

Avery,

I have an older 56 SH and run about the same amount of post, in an AHH i'd ride a 58 or a 60.  As others point out i would not focus on the amount of seatpost but instead on the TT length, if you're not feeling cramped then i'd find the AHH that would give you a similiar TT length.  

[Evan]

Hi Avery,

Welcome! I agree with everyone else that your amount of seat post, while more than a fistful, is not at all bad. As for getting a Homer to replace your Sam: Grant says that the two bikes are functionally equivalent, so if one goes for the Homer, one is choosing it mainly for its appearance and for its slightly thinner tubing. Nothing wrong with that, of course!

Evan E.

[Avery Wilson]

Well, I wonder if my very small level of dissatisfaction (I am about 95% happy!) could be cured by lighter wheel/tire setup, and maybe a longer stem.. 

I have a 12cm TechDeluxe that I could put on, but that entails unwrapping and rewrapping half of my bars. :)

So a little description of the current setup:

56CM DTT Sam Hillborne

10CM Tallux stem

Albatross bars

Wheels are LX Hubs with Velocity Dyad (heavy-ish touring rims) 

Tires are Resist Nomad 700x45 (42 actual) Wire bead.

Brooks B17 regular.

Some sweet vintage Paul brake Levers

Marks Rack with Wald Medium Basket

Axiom Rear rack as bag platform (would rather have another Mark's Rack.. :)

Everything else is a Riv-standard build.. silver shifters, Sugino triple, tektro R559 etc.

Could I get some of that lively responsiveness that I love in the Hilsen with a lighter wheelset and some of those sweet new Compass 700x38 tires?

Or is the ride of the AHH inherent in its frame?

[Peter Morgano]

Wouldn't a 59cm San Marcos fit the bill? The fact it is less than half the price doesn't hurt either.

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[Avery E Wilson]

My wife rides a San Marcos... While it's a beautiful bike, I'm not sure I want to match! Call it vanity, but that's what I'm at ;)

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[Joe Bernard]

Ahh, the stem is a good place to start. I've used Albas on several bikes, and even on frames right at the edge of too big I always needed a 12cm stem. Those bars have a good bit of reach-back, and can make you feel cramped if the stem is too short. The bar-end shifters will exacerbate this feeling. You have a very nice bicycle there, so I would start with the cheaper/easier changes before deciding the Sam isn't quite what you need.

 

PS. Love the double-tubes and the blue headtube. I kinda like the frame-color headtubes over cream.

 

Joe Bernard

[Bill Lindsay]

"but that entails unwrapping and rewrapping half of my bars. :)"

If you really are willing to buy a $2300 frame just to avoid re-wrapping your bars, I will commit to doing your stem swap for you for significantly less than $2300.  ;-)  

Seriously though, my saddle height is 75.5cm.  I ride a 56 Sam, and a 58cm 650B Hilsen.  If I were to buy a 700c Hilsen, I would get a 59.  All the above have drop bars on them.  For an Alba or Bosco setup on a Hilsen, I'd possibly jump to a 61.  

[Peter Morgano]

My wife would love matching bikes! Then she would stop telling me an mb2 is not a Rivendell, haha.

[Deacon Patrick]

Welcome, Avery! Great looking bike! I'll echo everyone else's input that the seat post is not an immodest amount. I've found that part of the journey with my Hunqapillar is discovering the many variations of fit and function and how we get along. I would suggest you play with the small bits before swapping out the big bit.

What exactly feels "too small" to you? If the bars feel too close, you can get a longer stem and/or a set back seat post. Also, Albatross bars, which it looks like you are riding, definitely come back compared with other bars, and you have them fairly high, both of which shorten your reach. I'd suggest getting those dialed in as close as you can, then if things are still too small, look into shifting to a larger frame.

It took me a while to learn to 1) not be afraid to destroy handlebar tape to try something new and; 2) ride with the set up I am testing for a good hearty ride before taping it up again so I destroy less tape. Grin.

Whatever you decide, enjoy the ride!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Michael]

Welcome to the forum.

 

I would call Rivendell and ask them. They would probably be best to tell you.

Measure your PBH and tell them what it is  when you get them on the phone.

 

2. You can see the geometry chart for the Hilsen to see the standover heights and the top tube lengths to see if any size would be too small or large for you, too. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjehUKAztnO8dEFRVEYxUWpxeXNPMHZMeDZINmNUMWc

[justin...@gmail.com]

I would find a lighter wheel set with nicer tires to test out on your current rig and see how that changes your ride. I think you'll be surprised how much difference those two things could impact your experience.

Disclosure, I have a 700c XT/Dynohub/Synergy wheel set going up for sale soon.

-Justin

[dougP]

Avery:

It's always fun to welcome someone new to the group.  To your question, a more performance oriented wheelset / tire choice could be your last 5%.  I have an Atlantis with Mavic A719 rims (stout, touring hoops) and have run various Schwalbe tires for ages.  Simply changing to the Soma C-lines made a noticeable difference in ride.  I've also tired a lighter wheelset with silly/skinny tires and it entirely transforms the character of the bike.  The same change on a more sporty frameset could be even more fun. 

This gets me to thinking I should try the Somas on the racy wheelset. 

dougP

On Tuesday, April 1, 2014 12:06:24 PM UTC-7, Avery Wilson wrote:

[dougP]

Well Avery, my wife rides an Atlantis (sheer blind luck, no planning went into the choice) so we get a lot of "matching" comments.  Hey, what works, just works!

dougP

[Clayton]

I run about the same "seat post showing" as your photo. I too was in between sizes and decided to go with a smaller frame. I run a suspension seat post (soon to be replaced after 10 years of use. After 3 back surgeries it is a must and greatly improves comfort. I am getting a USE post)..  With a larger frame, there is too little seat post showing, to fit one. The greatest improvement to any bike is lighter wheels and tires. My Atlantis weighs around 44 lbs as I have it set up with bags, fenders, U lock etc. I am thinking of getting a cyclocross bike just because it would be easier to get to my apartment upstairs...lol. Anywhoo.... my recommendation is lighter wheels and tires. I have fun fiddling with my bike and after ten years of buying and trying all kinds of changes, I have it perfect (for me). Have fun! 

On Tuesday, April 1, 2014 8:21:33 AM UTC-7, Avery Wilson wrote:

[IanA]

 Dyad rims are not particularly heavy - the weight difference between them and Synergy rims aren't far off that.   Tires have much more bearing on feel.

Well worth trying the longer stem though, or maybe just try the bars a cm or two lower.  Or both the longer stem and the bars a touch lower.  

Ian A.

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Hey there Avery -

That is a very nice looking rig.   It doesn't really strike me as immodest... ;^)

I'd look more at the stem setup than the seatpost.  With that handlebar setup, It does seem that you could jump up to the 60 cm and still be right in the middle of the height range.   So, it does get back to what you are comfortable with.  I'm just a little shorted legged than you (85) and have a 59 AHH, and would probably tend towards the 56 Sam (though I've ridden the 60 over at RBWHQ&L and it was just fine).

The other question I'd ask is what you plan on doing for cockpit setup on the AHH.  Are you going to use basically the same bar/stem and overall position?  If so, you'll probably find the AHH and Sam to be reasonably close cousins.  The great thing about RBW designs is that they invite experimentation.  Swapping in drop bars (from the Ranndonneur?) would give you a more road-type Sam, which would in turn give you a sense of what the Hilsen would be like. 

I don't think any bike is necessarily "overkill" - I find you just end up with more possibilities.

hope that helps!

- Jim

[hangtownmatt]

Avery,

My PBH is 91.5 and I ride a 60cm Hillborne.  I was fitted by Riv onsite.  In all honesty I feel the frame is a touch too large, but I'm one of those long legged short torso kind'a guys; so it's not all about PBH.  But regardless, I do not think, with a PBH of 88, you would've been happy on a 60cm Sam Hillborne.  So I think you made the right choice at the time, if that makes you feel any better.

If you feel the bike is too small I'd suggest replacing your Albatross bars with either Noodles or the new Albastache.  Either of those should open things up for you.  And in regards to performance I'd start with new tires.  If that doesn't improve things enough than a new wheelset.  And if after all that, you still are not happy, than purchase the appropriate size Homer frameset and transfer the new wheel set and handlebars of your choice. 

Matt

On Tuesday, April 1, 2014 8:21:33 AM UTC-7, Avery Wilson wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Of course, maybe Avery is just ready for a new Riv. I've been through five of their wonderful bicycles and am currently "between Rivs", so I certainly understand this process. Hey Avery, if you really want a new Hilsen, buy one!

 

Joe "a sage green Sam would be nice" Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Dan McNamara]

The 56 Sam has a pretty long theoretical TT - 59cm - actually the same listed TT as a 61 AHH. Going to a 63 AHH with an 88 PBH might be tough as the listed standover is 88.8, Not sure what tires that SO was measured with.

Maybe a longer stem as a first stop. A 12cm might just do the trick. Or switching out the Albas for drops or the albastache bars. 

I think that bike looks pretty sharp and see no problems with the amount of seat post.

Good luck dialing things in or with a new bike.

Dan

Marin, CA

--

[Chris Chen]

Hello from the Portland Chapter of Cockpit Changers Anonymous.

Hi I'm Chris and I'm a Cockpit Changer.

I've been with the same cockpit for two weeks now (waits for applause)

Avery, it does seem that the Albas are pretty high up and close in; Before trying other bars or bikes I'd definitely see about moving them a bit down and out, and maybe tilting them a bit forward. When I had them tilted back and high I felt like my quads were doing all the work and I fatigued easily, even if for short distances it was, well, it was great fun! Also, another list member and Portland riding buddy* once remarked that he never got the hang of Albas and the B17, and rides on a B67 saddle, so your mileage may vary.

But to echo what others on this list have said, get a different stem and maybe try Noodles, or the Albastache if you're so inclined. Sometimes it's nice to feel "on top" of the bike which I think Albatrosses are good at, and sometimes it feels nice to feel "in" the bike which is what Noodles and Albastaches can get you.

Just my two cents. (geez, more like two hundred dollars)

cc

*I never drop names, Zack

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[Avery E Wilson]

Thanks for all the replies and the multiple welcomes to the group, kind gentlemen.

A few things about myself that would make the 56 Sam vs 61 Hilsen debate clearer:

My PBH is 88, but my overall height is about 5'10", so I've got the legs of a six-footer, but the torso of a shorter man apparently.

I weigh an even 200, but with not a whole lot of fat, so I'm not ever going to lose more than 10 or 15 pounds, max.  

I occasionally, begrudgingly pull a trailer with 2 kids. (I love my daughters, but pulling a trailer makes cycling less than fun)

I want to S240 more than I do, with mixed pavement rides. Think gravel, fire/logging roads through the state forests here in Indiana.

My favorite rides are all day in southern Indiana "meandonneuring" among the hardwood forests and hills and forgotten roads.

The above-listed points may have pigeon-holed me for the Sam I already own!

I have a few things to do over the weekend apparently :)  I will swap my stem out for the 12cm Technomic Deluxe that I already have.  Then I'll build up a set of Noodles that I also already have with the 10cm Tallux stem that's currently on my A-bars.

I'll try out both setups for awhile, one after the other.

I am going to need a bulk box of shift/brake cables if I keep changing cockpits like this!  Or has anyone used those DaVinci cable disconnects for making cockpit swaps quick and relatively painless?

As far as wheels, I looked up rim weights on Peter White's website.. apparently the difference between Dyad rims and Synergies is negligible. As in, less than 10 grams.  I had assumed the Dyad's would have been much heavier.

Question on wheels - I have a set of excellent roadie wheels, but they are spaced 130mm at the rear.  They're currently on the VO and shod with some Vittoria 32mm tires.  Would it be ok to swap these over to the Sam for at least just a short ride?  Throw some extra washers or locknuts on the axle of the road wheels and have less axle in the dropouts?

I'm thinking of ordering a set of the new Compass Barlow Pass 700x38 tires.  I don't want to open up the Riv vs Compass tire philosophy debate, but I will say this: The Hilsens that I rode that I loved the ride on had Jack Brown Greens on one and Pacenti Pari-Motos on the other.  Not flat-protected tires that I've been riding on the Hillborne. So there's that.

I suppose the goal I'm going for is to capture for my Hillborne whatever it was that I loved about the ride and responsiveness of the couple Hilsens I've ridden.  Project Hilsen-ify the Hillborne?

Tires and Bar tape are cheaper than new bikes...

Avery

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[Chris Chen]

Get you a good pair of housing cutters :)

[Avery E Wilson]

I've got a pair! I need to get a soldering iron to solder the ends of cables so I can use them more than once. Once they start fraying, it's all over!

[Avery E Wilson]

Also I just ordered a set of Barlow Pass tires. Anybody running these tubeless with Stan's?

(I'm an unrepentant tubeless believer for my mountain biking and I LOVE having zero flats with it..)

[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Avery,

Welcome! I'm a cockpit changer myself. (Currently setting up moustache to go along with my Noodles + bullmoose cockpits.)

Since you're running bar-ends, take a look at this blog post. http://www.tamiasoutside.com/2008/08/24/barcons/

It details how to swap the bar ends, shifters, etc., from one bar to another. You won't need to worry about cables, etc., if you go from albas to Noodles (and back/forth). You might want to reconsider how you wrap your shift cables in order to minimize the work.

For the caliper brakes: If you happen to mangle the brake cables, you could always move the rear brake cable to the front (cutting off the mangled part). It's probably a good idea to check the brake cable to make sure it's intact and otherwise fine before re-using it for the front brake cable. The worst you're out is a new brake cable ($4 on Riv).

Have fun! It's great to have different cockpit set ups-- it's N+1+

shoji

[Avery E Wilson]

I actually have two sets of silver bar ends already :)

One of the Albas and another set on the noodles that are currently on the VO.

So, cockpit swaps may be easier than feared. :)

[Peter Morgano]

Saw this on the bay today. Good price if the size is right for you.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rivendell-A-Homer-Hilsen-59cm-/121310492445?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:3160 

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[Chris Chen]

Quick! Bike nerds! ID the production date by the lack of a top eyelet on the fork dropout! :)

[Matt Lynch]

Avery, 

Something I did that you may want to consider is converting one of your bar end shifter sets to stem shifters.  That way, when you change handlebars you don't need to mess with the shifters at all.  For example, so far I have Noodles and a Surly Open Bar for my Hillborne.  Each setup has its own brake levers, cables and tape/grips; ready to go.  If I want to switch between cockpits it's a simple lift-n-lay.  All I have to do is reconnect the brakes.  There's no cable/cable housing waste and no re-taping,  This approach was particularly suitable to these two setups because they each required different brake levers (i.e. MTB vs. Road).  This may seem be a more expensive approach since each setup requires its own stem, but I've found that each handlebar change requires it's own unique stem size anyway.  I think it's better used this way than just letting it sit in a drawer.  FYI - If you don't have a stem shifter mount RBW sells a sharp looking unit.

Matt