Eat Bacon Don't Bonk?

[Tim]

I'm curious what low carbers do for long rides? I rode 100k today on my sixth day of "eating like Grant." Id be happy to exchange ideas off list to keep this thread from getting crazy. On-list could be lively too. I'm especially interested to hear from you, Patrick (you've probably mentioned a ketogenic diet more than most, and I also always like what you have to say) but definitely would like to hear others' experience too. The more the merrier. You can get me at: tim....@yahoo.com

[Chris Chen]

If you're six days in you deserve a pat on the back because you probably hurt a bit. I did a tour and started out keeping to a low carb rule and I was averaging 70mi/day for the first week or so. I broke down near the end when I couldn't resist small town milkshakes, but I definitely felt strong. That said, I had been eating low carb for a few months by that point so the "paleo flu" had already passed.

Hard cheese and salamis were my food when I was on the road. No refrigeration needed for a few days. Breakfasts were eggs and bacon; Dinners were pork chops and any sorts of vegetables I could find. Lunches were usually hamburgers without the bun, plus a salad.

cc

On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 at 1:42 PM, 'Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I'm curious what low carbers do for long rides? I rode 100k today on my sixth day of "eating like Grant." Id be happy to exchange ideas off list to keep this thread from getting crazy. On-list could be lively too.  I'm especially interested to hear from you, Patrick (you've probably mentioned a ketogenic diet more than most, and I also always like what you have to say) but definitely would like to hear others' experience too. The more the merrier. You can get me at:   tim....@yahoo.com

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[Chris Chen]

Oh yeah I ate lots of cauliflower. Lots of it. :)

[Deacon Patrick]

I don't eat unless it is a multi-day ride, and even then sometimes I don't eat. I do 10-12 hours of riding without food. Once you adapt to burning fat instead of sugar, you don't "bonk." That adaptation can take a month or two though. Before I was fully adapted, I'd eat academia nuts, butter, things like that.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Bill Lindsay]

ive never bonked, i dont think. ive done plenty of rides that i didnt have the legs for, but i dont think ive ever bonked. i did have a moderate problem today, and that was some cramping. ive had some minor leg cramps during the last week or two, and googled it, and it seems like that is kind of common with low carb diets. you deplete glycogen and water and electrolytes and might have cramping problems. i hit the electrolyte tablets pretty hard and controlled it, but i have some adjustments to make, it seems

[Tim]

I struggle with cramps on brevets, no matter what I'm eating. I think it is electrolyte related. Electrolyte tablets help but as heavily as I sweat, I need to take in quite a bit of sodium to keep up. At least, I think that's the case. Patrick, you mean you don't eat the entire day, unless it's a multi day ride, or you don't eat during the 10-12 hours you are riding?

[Deacon Patrick]

I don't take food with me on the ride and don't eat. I have an emergency jar of coconut oil for if something unexpected happens. I often don't eat breakfast, so I ride fasted from the start, then eat when I get home. I generally eat one or two meals a day, so often have 24 hour fasts.

Bill, someone who isn't yet fat adapted but is eating low carb could easily bonk because it takes the body a while to get efficient with glucose. Once adapted, that is not an issue.

I have not had any issues with cramping since eating this way. I drink a lot less water (storing and processing carbs takes a lot of water, burning fat for fuel creates water as a by-product, so less need to drink in more). From the little I know, the cause of cramps remains a mystery, so at this point everyone with cramps is an n=1 experiment as to what works for them. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Chris Chen]

I know what you mean but "Academia Nuts" sound incredible! :)

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[lungimsam]

I don't understand what that means that a body switches to burning fat. Does that mean the body only uses fat? How can a body survive on just fat?

[Deacon Patrick]

I'll bet Grant addresses that in his book. The simple answer is, when we eat carbs, our body enters fat storing mode, and only gets energy from our thimble-full of glucose in our blood (which also rapidly gets converted to fat and stared rather than used). When we don't eat carbs (above a certain level), our body shifts to burning stored fat for energy, which even a person with 5% body weight has enough of to go for days. But if we've been sugar burning a long time, it takes time to get our body to "remember" how to burn fat rather that store it.

With abandon,

Patrick

[dougP]

Check your electrolyte supplements.  What you're looking for is potassium.  Loss of fluids reduces potassium levels which can cause cramps & similar muscle problems.  Potassium is also essential for correct heart function.  For some people, simple salt supplements work well enough, and V-8 juice and bananas are easy to find on the road.  I even have one friend who deals with leg cramps using plain old salt packets from fast food restaurants.  Cramping by itself is bad enough but it's a warning sign that you're running low on potassium.

dougP 

[Anne Paulson]

I'm sorry to be dense here, but salt packets don't have any potassium
in them, so how would they help deal with reduced potassium levels?

Bananas and strawberries have lots of potassium.

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-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[dougP]

No, you're not dense at all.  I think my friend is an example of the placebo effect.  Claims nearly immediate results from poring a packet of salt under the tongue.  I've never tried it but it works for her.  I agree on the bananas, strawberries, etc.  Ignoring all the arguments about carbs, a banana strawberry smoothie is a heck of a lot more palatable than a salt packet. 

Probably shouldn't have mentioned the idea of pure salt but the point is that people's reactions are highly variable, and each of us needs to try different things until we find what works.  Sort of like tires & saddles.  You'll likely wind up with a collection of partially used supplement products before you find what's most effective for you.

dougP

[ascpgh]

Potassium and sodium are both culprits for cramps because of their necessary relationship. They are the key electrolytes in our bodies making them able to produce charges across membranes. Potassium is primarily found inside cells, Sodium outside cells, your kidneys are responsible for the maintenance of levels of both by way of their excretions from circulatory volume in the proximal tubule and reabsorption in the distal tubule of the nephron functional unit. Both electrolytes will deplete with urine output (or sweat), sodium more so since it is in solution in fluid volumes more likely to be removed by the kidney function. One mnemonic is "water follows Sodium". Potassium depletion takes a bit longer as it is a function of the less than perfect reabsorption from the volume of fluid waste removed  in the first part of the kidney's function. Proper functions of the electrolyte balance, for all its functions, is equilibrium of Sodium Na-, and Potassium K+ electrolytes.

Depletion of Potassium, hypokalemia, can produce muscle tremors, weakness, fatigue, constipation and cardiac arrhythmia at the far end. Muscles become ineffectual. Depletion of Sodium, hyponatremia,  can be muscle spasm, cramps, confusion dizziness, headache, restlessness and other neurological complications at the far end of the spectrum of loss. The less of Sodium in excreted fluid volumes, urine or sweat is much more likely the source of muscle cramping or spasming. Returning Sodium to normal levels is much easier with oral intake, remembering that if you do so too fast and make yourself vomit it is worse than having to start over again, you've ejected critical electrolytes and the acid engine for producing electrolytes from your intake. Gastric juices use their pH to do that and must be conserved. Potassium depletion comes from foods and drink containing it. Potassium repletion in  clinical environments are done slowly under cardiac monitoring because of the potential disruptiveness of a Potassium level shift.

Under exertion you lose fluid through indiscernible losses like exhaled breath (conserved by the mucous tissues reabsorption in the turbinate structures of your sinuses if you nose breath like Deacon Patrick) which depollute fluid levels and concentrate electrolytes which sweat and kidney excretion will try to overcome. The kidneys will reabsorb Potassium from the urine before it is collected in the bladder. Sodium soon is the one lost in greater volume. Training makes the body more efficient in muscle effort, work produced without excess sweating and simple conditioning to the point of tolerating and compensating in function for that path of depletion help. Sometimes you're just a sweat hog. 

Without biometric testing while on the bike it is tough to nail exactly the process of your spasms or cramps other than to relate it more to Sodium than Potassium although it is correct to include Potassium as a part of the problem, mostly for better resisting the exercise depletion path and seeming to concentrate against remaining Sodium. 

Bacon is salty; it will help. V-8 juice is salty and helps too. Hope that is insightful, the unabridged chapter on electrolyte balance is vast.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh 

[Garth]

 
   In regards to ANY position of diet being responsible this, that and the other :

 No matter how many times you repeat and rearrange a myth ,what has no basis in truth will never be true ;-)   

[Deacon Patrick]

Do you realize, Garth, you aren't saying anything? It's conversely true that denying the truth doesn't make it less true. Grin.

That's why we have science, to help us suss that out. But something like diet has so many compounding factors that short of understanding direct effects of a change in diet on various functioning (brain, athletic performance, etc.) it's hard to separate causal from corollary. That's where studying fossil records is so helpful. they show that modern disease and tooth decay were nearly nonexistent prior to farming (and thus an increase in eating grain.).

I also find it intriguing that modern medicine refers to being ketogenic as the "starvation diet" -- when in fact it is the regular eating of carbs that puts our bodies into panicked "save all we can cause we may need it to live later" mode. The knuckleheads got it backwards. Starvation mode is when our bodies are hoarding fuel for later use -- triggered by eating a high amount of carbs. Carbs in great quantity used to be our "fall back" food source in times of scarcity of game.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Most helpful explanation I’ve ever seen, Andy.  Is there non-technical reading available?

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[Garth]

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 9:16:00 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

Do you realize, Garth, you aren't saying anything? It's conversely true that denying the truth doesn't make it less true. Grin.

     Exactly Patrick !    Denying the Truth does not make it less so .  

  Herein rests the Quest-ion , 

          What is Truth ?

[Montclair BobbyB]

Yeah... What he said...

[Deacon Patrick]

Here's a thorough exploration of what (mostly isn't) known about cramps, in four parts...

http://sportsscientists.com/2007/11/muscle-cramps-part-i/

Folks on my running list (many of whom are some flavor of paleo also) who cramp experience them when they are doing too much too soon. Other factors seem corollary rather than causal, but who knows? Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 2:42:04 PM UTC-7, Tim wrote:

[ascpgh]

Literature varies, but the more you look over some of the information and accept having to look a thing or two up on another page while pushing through, it actually begins to be understandable and practical to your experience and use. The mind is fascinating, as long as you are not Sodium depleted.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 9:22:55 AM UTC-5, Pudge wrote:

Most helpful explanation I’ve ever seen, Andy.  Is there non-technical reading available?

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ascpgh
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 6:48 AM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Eat Bacon Don't Bonk?

 

Potassium and sodium are both culprits for cramps because of their necessary relationship. They are the key electrolytes in our bodies making them able to produce charges across membranes. Potassium is primarily found inside cells, Sodium outside cells, your kidneys are responsible for the maintenance of levels of both by way of their excretions from circulatory volume in the proximal tubule and reabsorption in the distal tubule of the nephron functional unit. Both electrolytes will deplete with urine output (or sweat), sodium more so since it is in solution in fluid volumes more likely to be removed by the kidney function. One mnemonic is "water follows Sodium". Potassium depletion takes a bit longer as it is a function of the less than perfect reabsorption from the volume of fluid waste removed  in the first part of the kidney's function. Proper functions of the electrolyte balance, for all its functions, is equilibrium of Sodium Na-, and Potassium K+ electrolytes.

 

Depletion of Potassium, hypokalemia, can produce muscle tremors, weakness, fatigue, constipation and cardiac arrhythmia at the far end. Muscles become ineffectual. Depletion of Sodium, hyponatremia,  can be muscle spasm, cramps, confusion dizziness, headache, restlessness and other neurological complications at the far end of the spectrum of loss. The less of Sodium in excreted fluid volumes, urine or sweat is much more likely the source of muscle cramping or spasming. Returning Sodium to normal levels is much easier with oral intake, remembering that if you do so too fast and make yourself vomit it is worse than having to start over again, you've ejected critical electrolytes and the acid engine for producing electrolytes from your intake. Gastric juices use their pH to do that and must be conserved. Potassium depletion comes from foods and drink containing it. Potassium repletion in  clinical environments are done slowly under cardiac monitoring because of the potential disruptiveness of a Potassium level shift.

 

Under exertion you lose fluid through indiscernible losses like exhaled breath (conserved by the mucous tissues reabsorption in the turbinate structures of your sinuses if you nose breath like Deacon Patrick) which depollute fluid levels and concentrate electrolytes which sweat and kidney excretion will try to overcome. The kidneys will reabsorb Potassium from the urine before it is collected in the bladder. Sodium soon is the one lost in greater volume. Training makes the body more efficient in muscle effort, work produced without excess sweating and simple conditioning to the point of tolerating and compensating in function for that path of depletion help. Sometimes you're just a sweat hog. 

 

Without biometric testing while on the bike it is tough to nail exactly the process of your spasms or cramps other than to relate it more to Sodium than Potassium although it is correct to include Potassium as a part of the problem, mostly for better resisting the exercise depletion path and seeming to concentrate against remaining Sodium. 

 

Bacon is salty; it will help. V-8 juice is salty and helps too. Hope that is insightful, the unabridged chapter on electrolyte balance is vast.

 

 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh 

 

On Sunday, January 11, 2015 at 5:08:14 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:

Check your electrolyte supplements.  What you're looking for is potassium.  Loss of fluids reduces potassium levels which can cause cramps & similar muscle problems.  Potassium is also essential for correct heart function.  For some people, simple salt supplements work well enough, and V-8 juice and bananas are easy to find on the road.  I even have one friend who deals with leg cramps using plain old salt packets from fast food restaurants.  Cramping by itself is bad enough but it's a warning sign that you're running low on potassium.

dougP 

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 4:10:20 PM UTC-8, Tim wrote:

I struggle with cramps on brevets, no matter what I'm eating. I think it is electrolyte related. Electrolyte tablets help but as heavily as I sweat, I need to take in quite a bit of sodium to keep up. At least, I think that's the case. Patrick, you mean you don't eat the entire day, unless it's a multi day ride, or you don't eat during the 10-12 hours you are riding?

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[dougP]

Andy:

Thank you for a thorough discussion and clarification.  That's more complete information than I've gotten from two cardiologists.  The executive summary appears to be that we need both, with sodium being more readily depleted by exercise. 

dougP

[Tim Tetrault]

Related, a bit-

Bought the book, loved it, am trying to adapt. I still find it expensive to feel fully sated going low/no carb. Lentils and brown rice gets protein in cheaper when you take a while to feel full. 3 slices of bacon doesn't feel as filling as an apple and a bunch of almond butter and as effective for energy. Any tips for someone trying to keep his food budget reasonable and get ketogenic?

Thanks gang-

Tim

[Deacon Patrick]

Several things:

-- You may be overeating protein. By calorie, protein is a very small portion of my diet (10% range). Try eating less protein and more fat in a given meal. Fat is what is satiating, not protein. Just eat protein to hunger, once you get adjusted. Some days I want more, some less.

-- Do you want to go ketogenic? Ketogenic is nearly no carbs (under 20 g per day). Most folks prefer to be low carb for which there is a much wider range, but basically 50-200 g of carbs per day.

Fat will satiate more as you body gets used to being fat burning rather than fat storing. It can take a bit for the body's "fuel level" gauge to adjust to a new primary fuel. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Bill Lindsay]

It easily could have been me doing too much too soon.  It was my first ride of that duration in quite some time.  

[Corwin]

This paper is nothing short of amazing. I have been experiencing a significant increase in cramping since moving toward a lower-carb diet almost four years ago. I had thought it was because of an electrolyte deficiency. Will try more stretching in the future.

Thanks Deacon!

Regards,

Corwin

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 7:29:21 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

[Deacon Patrick]

Corwin,

I don't stretch. I also don't sit on chairs or sleep in a bed, but sit and sleep on the floor, which in a way leads to constant stretching and core strengthening, so perhaps that's a factor in my never getting cramps.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Montclair BobbyB]

The Ketogenic diet hasn't worked well for me... I find it's simply too difficult (and put me in a mild rage).  I'm on a long-term diet modification, gradually 'fixing' my diet, increasing my intake of greens, veges and fruits (no-brainer, right?)... Well I've always known this, yet have struggled to stick to it.  I have to admit, I've been a carbo-holic my entire life and I have finally come to recognize this.  Using a Vitamix really helps me ... I can quickly blend up a handful of greens with an avocado, flaxseed, almonds, frozen berries and water...sometimes I'll even throw in half a cup of steelcut oats... There are so many variations of greens and veges to explore, I can't see ever getting bored with this. The flavor combinations can be extraordinary. This makes a hearty and filling drink (that I'm really liking) and I often complement this with 2 poached eggs... Easy and quite filling, and I'm no longer missing the carbs.  In fact the thought of having a traditional diner breakfast with 2 eggs, bacon, toast, potatoes and OJ (something I always have enjoyed)... has entirely lost its appeal (beyond the eggs & bacon, that is).

Oh and BTW I've lost over 30 lbs of my 45 lb goal (and am so far on a steady course).  Stay healthy, (and for God's sake Patrick, can you at least find a Thermarest pad to throw on the floor?  Last time I slept directly on a hard floor was painful).

Peace,
BB 

[Deacon Patrick]

Yeah, it took me a couple of years to be able to go full time ketogenic. I possibly could have shifted sooner, but it took my body a while to strengthen it's ketogenic capacity to the point I could go full time. From all I've read, unless you have a medical reason to go full time ketogenic, low carb and occasional intermittent fasting is a brilliant way to go (that's what I did for two years to get to full time ketogenic -- have no idea what I was doing as there was so little info on details of how to do it).

At home, I sleep on a wool blanket, if that helps you feel better, BB. Grin. Bikepacking and camping, it's a foam pad, though I'd prefer a denser one. The Thermarest is too bloody soft and frilly for me. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Robert F. Harrison]

I recall about a year ago I was getting really tired of all this talk of primal/paleo/low carb/let's eat better talk around here. In fact i was more or less avoiding the topic altogether. Can anyone imagine why? :-)

Then last April I had my left hip replaced (documented here to some degree) and decided that as long as I had to up my non-cycling exercise, walking, stretching, and core stuff suggested through PT, I might as well take off some of the lard I was carrying around.

My surgery was at the end of April and in May I was recovering and frankly, eating garbage as a treat for my recovery (not a good way to recover I might add - now). Still it was on my mind. Once I was fully mobile I decided I'd try eating at least a bit healthier and stopped bringing sweets home, switched to salads at work, and cut way back on carbs (not in line with any particular plan, just cutting back). 

I noticed some improvement in both health and weight and started paying a bit more attention to the threads on the topic here. I made a few more modifications but still was only losing weight only gradually. 

When Grant's book came out I figured, why not? At least I would supporting him and such. Well it made sense to me and as I'd already cut way back on carbs it wasn't particularly difficult physically to go further (though mentally I still wanted a bit of pie from time to time).

That's when the weight more or less started falling away and my health improved noticeably, not just to me but to other folks as well.

I've lost about 50 lbs. since surgery, much of it in just the last three months, though not an unhealthy pace. My energy is great and I don't bonk, at least not on anything shorter than 60-65 miles (haven't gone longer than that recently). 

I just got blood work back and compared it with numbers from fall with my doctor yesterday. He was very impressed and happy that "at least one of my patients takes my advice." I didn't tell him that while, yes, he had recommended very low carbs, my change had little to do with his advice and more to do with a bunch of folks who ride bicycles a lot. In any case I can report:

1. My blood sugar A1C number which had been 'sweet' though not diabetic is now just high normal. I expect that will continue to drop as does my doctor given what I've told him. Since the A1C is a long term number, my drop doesn't represent just a change for that particular hour or time of day, but rather a real change over time. 

2. My overall cholesterol was up, but still very safe. However my HDL went up about 50% and my LDL only a little so my overall risk factor has dropped. My doctor was not concerned about overall numbers and was very pleased about the changes. 

3. I've lost as much weight in the last three months as I did in the previous six. In addition, during those first six I was depriving myself of stuff that now I don't even think about.

My friends have all noticed the change (losing the equivalent of a six year old around your waist is, um, noticeable). In fact a couple of my friends bought me new shirts in smaller sizes for Christmas saying I really needed to change my wardrobe. 'm still holding off on shopping because I'm not at my goal yet and don't want to spend a lot 'in-between.' 

To top it off my riding had really improved. As I said I really don't bonk now (at least not under 65 miles). And after training for years with a 50 lb. weight around my waist and a bad hip, hills are much, much easier, even fun. My overall speed (never really a concern) is up over distance as well. 

My good friend who has always pulled away from me going up hills is now in my mirror (we don't race, but have always agreed that we need to ride up hills at whatever pace works best for us). He's also acquired Grant's book but admits he hasn't really followed directions as well as he might though now that he's seen my results I suspect he'll pay more attention.

Well that's my story. I sort of wish I'd payed attention earlier but it's true that we're never ready till we're ready. :-) 

Aloha, Bob

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rfhar...@gmail.com
statrix.com

Wu Name: Tha Eurythmic King of Nowhere

[Deacon Patrick]

Awesome, Bob! The more science learns about cholesterol, the more it learns levels are not a predictor of heart disease but low levels are a predictor of loss of brain function. The book Grain Brain explores this very well.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Shoji Takahashi]

Congrats, Bob. That's a nice story-- keep it up! (or down?)

[Evan]

Fantastic story, Bob! I hope Grant sees it. I bought and read EBDJ and I've been doing the diet part of it but not yet the exercise part. BYou've inspired me to begin.

Evan E.

SF, CA

[ascpgh]

Congratulations on the hip rehab and intake overhaul. Nothing like results to gauge your effort.

On Tuesday, January 13, 2015 at 3:27:31 PM UTC-5, Statrixbob wrote:

[ascpgh]

... in the absence of it in your diet, your body will synthesize 7-10 grams (that's right, not milligrams) per week to satisfy the body's needs.

Andy Cheatham

PIttsburgh

[Evan]

Dear Fans and Followers of the EBDJ Food Regimen:

I've been strictly following the EBDJ diet for seven days now and I feel fine EXCEPT that my feet are always cold. I know cold feet are a sympom of Paleo flu, but could they also arise from a lack of calories? Yes, I know calories supposedly aren't a big deal when one is in ketosis, but I'm still wondering just the same. Here's a typical day of food for me:

BREAKFAST: 3 eggs cooked in one tablespoon of butter, plus coffee with one tablespoon of coconut oil. 440 calories

LUNCH: 7 ounces canned pink salmon with 1 tablespoon olive oil. 300 calories

DINNER: Four baked chicken thighs, plus a plateful of kale cooked in ghee. 600 calories

That's a total of 1,340 calories. Is that enough to help me maintain my weight? I'm skinny already, so I'm only doing this EBDJ diet for general health and fitness, not for weight loss. Will more calories warm my feet? Will more calories help me in other ways? Right now I can't imagine skipping three or four meals a week for good health and/or fun--or doing the Deacon Patrick thing and fasting for a day or two with no problem (then again, I aspire to that).

I welcome your suggestions, and hereby release you of responsibility if I gain weight, lose weight, faint, etc.!

Thanks,

Evan E.

SF, CA

[Deacon Patrick]

I don't count calories, so don't really know from that score, though 2,000 is the standard daily burn for an adult who isn't active, so being under that while being active for a long time, especially while transitioning, doesn't seem wise. I'd up your calories by adding fat via 100% grass fed butter, cream, avocados, etc. and see what happens.

The whole "eat to hunger" thing doesn't really work when in transition as you body is giving so many signals, whose to know what is what. Three months + in, and eat to hunger becomes more viable.

With abandon,

Patrick

[William deRosset]

>Is that enough to help me maintain my weight? 

Dear Evan,

Are you losing weight?

That said, you're probably pretty deep in deficit if you're at all active.

1500 kilocalories/day is considered the transition to starvation by the UNHCR for adult males.  A few hundred more calories will likely make you happier and more energetic. Perhaps a glass of wine with dinner?

I'd run a base metabolism rate calculator for your size, age, current weight, and activity level and aim to eat to approximately that many calories unless you've got some interest in CRON.

Your current diet is also deeply lacking vegetables. Kale is wonderful, but not complete. Vegetables are free micronutrients. I'd add various veggies. 

Best Regards,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

On Friday, January 16, 2015 at 5:24:06 PM UTC-7, Evan wrote:

[Evan]

Hi Deacon,

Agreed: I'll just eat more fat-rich foods, stick with the plan, and see how it goes. (BTW, at dinner a few hours ago I answered my own question when I doubled my portion size. My feet, and the rest of my body, warmed right up, so there you go.) Thanks!

Evan

[Chris Lampe 2]

Thanks for posting this!  I've bookmarked it and will read it over the weekend.  I have MAJOR issues with cramps when I go low-carb.  I even had the fortune of coincidentally having blood work done when I was low-carbing and cramping and all my electrolytes came back in the normal range but still had cramps. 

When I go low-carb, I start getting cramps in my upper back muscles, abdominal muscles and even the muscles around the ribcage.  Very annoying.  I probably don't adequately hydrate, either.  

Back in the 90's, I went for a ride that probably wasn't more than 10 miles but it was a very, very hot day.  I came home and hung my wet black shirt on the shower curtain to dry and the next day it was literally streaked white from all the salts (and who knows what else) I had secreted in my sweat.  It was a real eye opener.  

[Deacon Patrick]

If the cramps are happening in the first 6-12 months of going low carb, it is possible it is simply junk clearing out from the fat stores. The anti-nutrients from grains and veggie oils, et al get stored in the fat, then we get them in a rush at we're burning the fat, thus releasing the junk. In that case, persevering as well as drinking more water to help flush out the junk helps.

All told, it took me about 18 months for that to go away and for me to become fully fat adapted. The benefits that came along the way, for me, were well worth it, and not it's a non-issue and has been for several years. Kind of like an extended version of the low-carb flu.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Tony]

Hi Tim,

I have been primal for over 4 years. I would recommend looking at Mark Sisson's "Mark's Daily Apple" site. 

Check out http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-fuel-a-marathon/#axzz3P6xtiPM1

You probably need more than 6 days to be in the fat burning state, so, don't worry too much about eating carbs before/during/after a 100k ride; you can still be in the club. Maybe avoid junk carbs.I usually ride just a few 100k or longer rides a year and I have good success with the UCAN recovery drink after the ride; It has Superstarch! I know, but I heard about it on Sisson's site and the science looks good.

Tony

[Jayme Frye]

I wanted to chime in on this thread after a very disappointing ride this weekend. I've been following the EBDJ regimen for about a month. I've gotten my carb intake per day down to the 20 to 25 grams, fat intake is in the 150 to 175 range and protein 55 to 75 grams per day. Net caloric intake per day seems to be coming out around 1500; a 500 calorie deficit each day. I have dropped 3.5 pounds so far (168.3 to 164.8) and percent body fat (as registered by FitBit scale so take with grain of salt) is down to 13.5%. 

During this time my exercise has been combination of very brisk walking two to three times per week (15 min/mile pace) for 5 to 7 miles at a time. Some strenuous hiking 6 to 8 miles. Sporadic HIIT sprints on the fluid trainer and also sporadic strength training. Too cold here for any distance outside on the bike until this weekend when it got into the 50's. So I took the opportunity to pack camping gear and head out with my riding buddies for 100 mile round trip S24HO. I started the day with coffee and heavy cream. greek full fat yogurt with heavy cream, coconut flakes and chia seeds. For the first 20 miles I felt strong and then stomach cramps and nausea hit me. A burger (no bun) with bacon and cheese at lunch stop did not improve the situation. At around mile 45 with 5 or so to camp we made a final stop to top off water for camp and I broke down and had a Pepsi (my buddies had beers). The Pepsi (possibly placebo effect) did bolster my spirits for the final push to camp.
Dinner for me was a large egg, 4 oz pork sausage and 4 oz cheddar cheese. I again cheated with a 1 cup of a buddies mac and cheese. 

Breakfast consisted of 3 eggs (dehydrated egg crystals) four strips of bacon, coffee and a tablespoon of TJ ghee. The ride back was stomach issue free but I had no energy and my pace was much slower than I am used to. I ultimately pulled the plug after 40 miles and called for a ride home.
Lots of variables here that surely have contributing effects. My main take away is that this isn't some sort of formula for transforming you into an elite athlete overnight and I need to adjust my expectations and probably most critical adjust my calorie intake and exercise regime.   

I plan to stick with EBDJ looking for a good balance that will work for me.

Cheers

Jayme

[Tony]

Jayme, I think your summary about "many variables" is a good insight. I am sure the caffeinated sugary soda gave you an immediate boost. I am fairly certain that all the high fat food in your stomach, heavy on dairy, may have influenced cramps and nausea.That may not be the case on another day for you, and it might not be the case at all for someone else. It sounds like your are trying to put everything together for a eating and exercise program that works for you. Have you read Marl Sisson's book or website? He has a lot of valuable information to add to Grant's book; perhaps that should even be put as, Grant's book adds a lot of detailed information and personal insights to help guide through Sisson's voluminous writings, web links and comments from readers.

 

Tony

[Deacon Patrick]

Jayme, my first attempt at ketogenic went similarly to yours, though without the cramps. I was running 30 miles a day on the Colorado Trail, with an ultralight camping setup in a fanny pack (too big a fanny pack). What I learned, over a year later, is that my body was not yet that good at producing the small(ish) amount of glucose needed to keep burning fat.

Try this and see if it helps on your next long ride: continue eating as you have, but rather than eating fat during your ride, just have dates or similar source of carbs (honey, etc) to supplement your body's own ability to make glucose. Also, stopping for even five to 10 minutes can allow your liver to catch up with glucose conversion once it is good enough. With time, your body will get much more efficient at keeping the glucose you need as "kindling" for your fat burning fire. I hope this helps!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Tony DeFilippo]

I got the book in the mail today... I'm about halfway thru already and I think I have my wife talked into giving it a try.  I've got more than a couple superfluous pounds to loose so I'm excited to give it a try. I haven't done a specific 'named' diet like this since I went all liquid (shakes) for 2 months back in college... that worked but was miserable.  I'm a little concerned that as I get started I'll have trouble keeping energy up for my regular commute (only 15 miles round trip), or more likely that my commuting miles will keep my sugar/carb craving system still hungry for those things but there's no  harm in giving it a try.

We'll see how it goes!

[Deacon Patrick]

Don't feel bad in transition (up to a year+?) that when you exercise you carry some form of natural carb (I used dates). Pop them as you need. You'll still notice over time you don't need them as often, but it may take a longer time than you'd like. Grin.

The beauty of this is you should never feel like you are depriving yourself yet you'll still lose weight.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Tim]

I'm experiencing some of the same. I did a 200k on Saturday. I've been eating very low carb for only two weeks now. Saturday was actually day number 13. I'm going for my first RUSA R-12 so I need a 200k for the month of January. I chose a very flat (only 500 ft. of elevation gain in 200k!) route in VA. It was 31 degrees at the start with a 40 degree high, sunny, very light winds. I had fatty tea and yogurt with bleu cheese and macadamias for breakfast (Grant's concoction, but I forgot the coconut at home, darn it). I took along maybe 8-10oz. of salami and 6-8 oz of parmesan cheese. I didn't eat all of the salami and cheese. Maybe I ate slightly more than half. I also had half of a big dill pickle for the sodium. I felt ok for most of the ride. I had the pickle at 25 miles, then a couple of pieces of cheese between the 25 and 63 mile point. At 63 miles I stopped for lunch. I am caffeine free these days (for nearly a year now) except when on brevets. I find it is a great pick me up if only used on these long rides. I had coffee and salami and cheese. The next stop was at 103 miles and, although not hungry, I ate about 1/3 bag of almonds for the sodium. (I did take electrolyte tablets throughout the ride. About every hour.) So the last 22 miles I sort of ran out of gas. At around the 110 mile point I couldn't really produce any power. I ate a few more pieces of cheese and finished the ride. Overall I was happy to just finish. My rolling average was 15.2. I would expect that I could do better on such a flat route, maybe 16-17. But I was never hungry. I ate only because I felt that I should. I finished around 5:00 and I only had some fatty tea and a few macadamias that evening. There was no hunger. I look at it as an experiment, and a not at all unsuccessful one. I know that I am still trying to adapt to fat burning so Deacon's suggestion of dates (or some kind of natural carbs) is a good one. I also read Tony's link to Mark Sisson on fueling for a marathon, and I think I may try it for next month's 200k. Oh, by the way, I've lost 5 lbs in two weeks, although I gained one lb after the 200k.

[lungimsam]

But isn't eating all that cream and fat really bad for your circulatory system?

[Anne Paulson]

I'm trying to understand how eating dates, which are basically sugar
stuck together with a little bit of fiber and a little water, work in
a diet that is supposed to be low in sugars and starches. Why not just
eat jelly beans?

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 6:28 PM, 'Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch
<rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> I'm experiencing some of the same. I did a 200k on Saturday. I've been eating very low carb for only two weeks now. Saturday was actually day number 13. I'm going for my first RUSA R-12 so I need a 200k for the month of January. I chose a very flat (only 500 ft. of elevation gain in 200k!) route in VA. It was 31 degrees at the start with a 40 degree high, sunny, very light winds. I had fatty tea and yogurt with bleu cheese and macadamias for breakfast (Grant's concoction, but I forgot the coconut at home, darn it). I took along maybe 8-10oz. of salami and 6-8 oz of parmesan cheese. I didn't eat all of the salami and cheese. Maybe I ate slightly more than half. I also had half of a big dill pickle for the sodium. I felt ok for most of the ride. I had the pickle at 25 miles, then a couple of pieces of cheese between the 25 and 63 mile point. At 63 miles I stopped for lunch. I am caffeine free these days (for nearly a year now) except when on brevets. I find it is a great pick me up if only used on these long rides. I had coffee and salami and cheese. The next stop was at 103 miles and, although not hungry, I ate about 1/3 bag of almonds for the sodium. (I did take electrolyte tablets throughout the ride. About every hour.) So the last 22 miles I sort of ran out of gas. At around the 110 mile point I couldn't really produce any power. I ate a few more pieces of cheese and finished the ride. Overall I was happy to just finish. My rolling average was 15.2. I would expect that I could do better on such a flat route, maybe 16-17. But I was never hungry. I ate only because I felt that I should. I finished around 5:00 and I only had some fatty tea and a few macadamias that evening. There was no hunger. I look at it as an experiment, and a not at all unsuccessful one. I know that I am still trying to adapt to fat burning so Deacon's suggestion of dates (or some kind of natural carbs) is a good one. I also read Tony's link to Mark Sisson on fueling for a marathon, and I think I may try it for next month's 200k. Oh, by the way, I've lost 5 lbs in two weeks, although I gained one lb after the 200k.
>

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-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[ascpgh]

I think the ease of institution of the regimen can vary as individuals' balance of fast-twitch and slow-twitch (white meat, dark meat for the poultry familiar). Know that your smooth muscle,  (heart, blood vessels walls, intestinal walls) are fueled by glucose. Your brain and nervous system run exclusively on it too.

The diet's object is to end the fast and easy conversion of carbohydrates and sugars into glycogen, the energy storage molecule in your liver and large muscles from which glucose supplies are detached and circulated for that use. Fats, oils and proteins are also processed into glycogen too, it just takes more time and energy. In certain neurological situations a ketogenic diet is instituted for just that reason. 

This diet conversion should probably be undertaken before you go out above the normal activity or duration as the depletion of the rapidly available stores leaves you in the rarely exercised conversion to stores that are  slower to respond to physiologic needs until more rehearsed. You can end up with low blood sugar level presenting various symptoms ranging from lowered consciousness, heart palpitations and GI distress since that system represents the largest amount of of smooth muscle and is also the one the body will take off-line if supplies fall short. Preservation of the prioritized critical operations will ensue. Lack of stores forces the body the body to initiate those choices and if continued something called catabolism will ensue where the body will begin to breakdown functional tissue to make energy. 

Your GI system's tolerance of the diet is another issue. Difficulties can come from a shift of dietary intake in the liver's production, smooth flow of, storage in the gall bladder and secretion into the small intestine to emulsify fats, oils and lipids in the diet. Requirements for the substance exceeds the flow volume the ducts can support or the product becomes sludgy. Pancreatic secretions have digestive enzymes which, if any structural barrier to the flow of the volume produce in response to dietary intake can begin taking the same action (digestion) on itself resulting in pancreatitis. Poor responses to Atkins diets are frequent in the literature.

Have to listen to your body and know where you are starting. You may have more brittleness to this metabolic change that is either on the molecular or structural level or it might be well tolerated once the conversion is complete. This audience is generally an active one, benefitting all of this. The population I see with gall stones, requiring biliary stenting and pancreatitis are not using this diet to benefit their metabolic function, they are sitting on the couch playing video games, eating junk and finally having distress when they present. 

Andy Cheatham

Piottsburgh

[Deacon Patrick]

No. Read the book. Then ask questions. Everything your thought you knew about the relationship between fat and cholesterol and health is wrong. Learn why.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

Anne, You are right, fruit is mostly sugar. There isn't a nutritional need for fruit or sugar, once the liver and body are producing the glucose needed, and sipping it rather than gulping it. I still eat a grapefruit now and again when they are in season. The "date" advice is for when someone is riding (or exercising), in the transition between being a sugar burner and a fat burner, and needs to bump up their glucose stores because of those combined factors.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Mark Reimer]

Deacon, 

Ok, so let me get this straight. 

You sleep on the floor, don't sit on chairs, don't stretch, breath through your nose, ran 30 miles a day with your camping gear in a fanny pack, ride bare-foot and eat once a day? 

You sir, are the most interesting man in the world!

[Deacon Patrick]

Quirky. The word you're looking for is quirky. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Leslie]

ROTFL!!!!


-L

[Bill]

But Patrick, quirky fits pretty well for all of us here. Uncarbed unlycraed unracers who ride friction shifting wide tired lugged steel bikes - we're a bunch of weirdos and there's not a thing wrong with that.

[Brian Campbell]

or what is know in business as a "niche market"........

[Montclair BobbyB]

Perhaps, but let's be honest, I get especially high readings on my 'quirkometer' from Patrick... I have never known of anyone on this earth quite so skilled and unique who:

- Runs barefoot up mountain trails in a robe with balance sticks

- Is an ordained deacon

- Can survive on a diet of pemmican for days while bicycling up Pikes Peak

- Is impervious to weather

- Can convince his children to do S24O rides

- Sleeps on the floor

- Runs 30 miles a day

...All the while grinning sardonically...

HAVE YOU?? 

Respectfully, 

BB (One of Deacon Patrick's loyal fans)

On Thursday, January 22, 2015 at 8:56:16 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:

[Mark Reimer]

I think we need a Deacon t-shirt. 

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/23/2015 04:47 PM, Montclair BobbyB wrote:
> Perhaps, but let's be honest, I get especially high readings on my
> 'quirkometer' from Patrick... I have never known of anyone on this
> earth quite so skilled and unique who:
>
> - Runs barefoot up mountain trails in a robe with balance sticks
> - Is an ordained deacon
> - Can survive on a diet of pemmican for days while bicycling up Pikes Peak
> - Is impervious to weather
> - Can convince his children to do S24O rides
> - Sleeps on the floor
> - Runs 30 miles a day
>
> ...All the while grinning sardonically...
>
> HAVE YOU??
>
>

He is actually Samaritan
http://personofinterest.wikia.com/wiki/Samaritan

[dougP]

"I think we need a Deacon t-shirt. "

BikeTinker, your talents make you a strong candidate.  Recall he did the T-shirts for Entmoot 20th anniversary gathering.  Maybe a Hunqapillar, snow, Pike's Peak,....???

The world needs more quirky, eccentric independent thinkers.  Consider the most interesting people you know personally, and think about where they fall under the bell curve. 

dougP