Caveman ketchup

[Patrick Moore]

Not too off topic, I hope, given all the "paelo" stuff.

Can anyone recommend a ketchup that is not hugely over-sweetened like Heinz's typical, with all its corn syrup? I don't care about the carbs, I just very much dislike the way the sugar masks the flavor.

I've found Westbrae here:

http://www6.netrition.com/westbrae_veggie_ketchup.html

at a reasonable price (not paying $7.50 for Dean and DeLuca), but how does it *taste*?

Or can someone take me to a reliable (and personally tested, if recommended) recipe?

Thanks.

(And what wine goes best with ketchup?)

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[Bill Lindsay]

paelo indeed.  good one!  I had a very good seafood "paelo" in Llanes, Spain.

[Deacon Patrick]

We use Muir Glen Organic, which still has more sugar than we'd like, but our homemade attempts have been unsatisfactory. We also use it as the base for our BBQ.

With abandon,

Patrick

[hsmitham]

Patrick,

Don't know if you have Trader Joe's out there but they sell an organic ketchup that has 2 grams of sugar per table spoon like Deacon I'd like none.

~Hugh

On Sunday, November 24, 2013 2:26:19 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

[sameness]

(And what wine goes best with ketchup?)

Might I suggest a nice 57 varietal?

Jeff Hagedorn

Warragul, VIC Australia

[TM]

This one is pretty good: http://www.stevespaleogoods.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Chef-Ketchup

I'm also a big fan of their PaleoKits (jerky and nuts), which are great meals for frequent flyers trying to avoid airport meals.

[Tim McNamara]

On Nov 24, 2013, at 4:26 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Or can someone take me to a reliable (and personally tested, if recommended) recipe?

My wife took up canning last year and made a tomato jam that is very good as a ketchup sort of thing as well as being a nice change of pace from sweet jams and jellies. She found the recipe on the foodinjars.(com, I think) website.

[cyclotourist]

Daddy's is the way to go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daddies
Don't know about the sugar content, but soooo much better than ketchup.

http://www.britishfooddepot.com/Daddies-Brown-Sauce-198g-1378.htm

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[Anne Paulson]

I'm trying to understand what you want in the flavor here, Hugh. I can
understand trying to avoid high fructose corn syrup, and I also can
understand dialing down the sugar somewhat, but isn't trying to have
unsweetened ketchup like having a chocolate bar without chocolate?
Ketchup is a fruit butter, so it's flavored with sugar (and a lot of
it) and vinegar (and a lot of it) to make it sweet and sour. If you
take out the sugar, you have sour. Sour is good, but in what way would
it be like ketchup?

On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, hsmitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Patrick,
>
> Don't know if you have Trader Joe's out there but they sell an organic
> ketchup that has 2 grams of sugar per table spoon like Deacon I'd like none.

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-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Peter Morgano]

Wouldn't mammoth blood be caveman ketchup?

[Deacon Patrick]

Anne,

Actually, once our family stopped eating sugar (and other sweeteners) all the time in most everything (seriously, look at the labels. If it's processed, it has some form of sugar in it, for starters), the natural flavors of real food wake up and are far more lively. Ketchup is a sauce, and has no need for sweetener.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Anne Paulson]

I'm not arguing about whether you should like sweet things. You should
like what you like. I'm just saying that if you take ketchup, a
condiment whose main flavor is sweet, and you remove all the sugar,
you have something else other than ketchup. It might be something
delicious, but it's not ketchup.

(Also, fat-free half & half: Half what, and half what? It's a mystery to me.)

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[Patrick Moore]

First, in general: thanks for the comments and suggestions, which I will followup. But no brown sauce for me -- leave that for the dull-palated English.

Anne: I'm not Hugh, but since I posted the original question, I'll answer: I like ketchup for french fries, of which I eat a lot (home made, of course. Fat and carbs!). Regular Heinz is too sweet: as with many mass market commercial products, the excessive sweetness dulls the tomato flavor. I would not want a sour ketchup, of course, but I am looking for one that has a better balance -- doubtless in the mouth of the beholder -- of tomato taste and sweetness: more of the former, less of the latter.

Mainstream peanut butter is the same (tho' here they take out the peanut oil and substitute cheaper, which also doubtless affects the flavor): you get oily sweetness with just a dull hint or suggestion of peanut.

Some of the low sugar brands I've seen have 1 gram of sugar compared to, what, 5 in Heinz? These are often aimed at diabetics, so optimum taste may not be the makers' goal, and these may indeed be too sour.

I asked the question to learn if anyone can recommend a ketchup that, from their experience, has this different balance of tomato flavor to sweetness.

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[EGNolan]

We make our own. The only sugar is that that comes directly from our tomatoes, which is a fair amount. Most fruits have plentya sugar on their own, so adding isn't necessary, but as Anne mentioned, taking away all sugar from anything fruit based would be taking away the fruit essence. Ketchup, catsup, catch-up, whatever you call it, isn't terribly difficult to make and it keeps for quite a while. If you're into making yer own fries, I say make yer own catchumep and enjoy w/ a nice Pale Ale, like Dale's or sumthin'.

 

Just to get this back on topic, when my son rides his bike ahead of me, he likes to shout "Catch up, mustard." After 2 1/2 years of this joke, I still smile everytime he says it.

 

Best,

Eric

Indpls

[Deacon Patrick]

I understand, Anne. I simply disagree with the premise that ketchup is inherently sweet or needs to be. Makers of processed foods add sweetener to everything for one reason -- sweet is addictive.

I would also argue that taking the sugar out of ketchup is like taking the sugar out of chocolate. Chocolate is quite amazing without sweetener.

I'm with you 100% on fat-free anything and half and half. Give me heavy cream (grass-fed)! Yum!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Hugh: Thanks. My brother, who shops at TJ's regularly, told me that they (or at least the one he shops at here in ABQ) no longer carries it.

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[Patrick Moore]

Eric -- would you share your recipe? The few recipes I found online -- no cooking, use tomato sauce in a can and add a few taste enhancers -- looked, well, not appetizing -- to my very untrained cook's eye, I must add.

Bikes: I like a big plate of french fries with good ketchup after a long bike ride. And it's another, lesser Lent for us now, so satisfying non-animal-food is in demand.

Thanks.

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[EGNolan]

Patrick M- I'll get you the recipe once I've consulted my dear wife. I use "we" a lot, when I should probably just say "my lovely wife." We usually substitute our own tomatoes for canned, take out the added sugar, but may use a paste. I'll get details for ya.

 

Patrick of the Deacon sort- I agree ADDING sugar to ketchup or chocolate isn't necessary.Where I think we differ is that I don't worry about taking the sugar out of my tomatoes for ketchup or taking it out of my strawberries for jam. You can have unsweetened ketchup that still contains some of the natural sugar from the tomatoes. 

 

All this talk has made me hungry, I think I'm gonna go eat my lunch now; scrambled eggs w/ roasted peppers & onions on a bed of rice. No sugar added, but I didn't fish any out either...

 

Best,

Eric

Indpls

 

 

[Deacon Patrick]

I'm not in the food bucket you think I'm in, Eric. We eat the naturally occurring sugars in the fruit we consume, so there is no difference between us there. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Eric. Look forward to it, mouthwateringly.

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[Deacon Patrick]

I'd love the recipe too, Eric.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Monday, November 25, 2013 11:16:06 AM UTC-7, EGNolan wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/25/2013 12:30 PM, Anne Paulson wrote:

I'm not arguing about whether you should like sweet things. You should
like what you like. I'm just saying that if you take ketchup, a
condiment whose main flavor is sweet, and you remove all the sugar,
you have something else other than ketchup. It might be something
delicious, but it's not ketchup.

That is so not so.  There is in fact a federal standard of identity for ketchup, published in the Code of Federal Regulations, and here it is:

[Code of Federal Regulations]

[Title 21, Volume 2]

[Revised as of April 1, 2013]

[CITE: 21CFR155.194]

TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS

CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

SUBCHAPTER B--FOOD FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION

PART 155 -- CANNED VEGETABLES

Subpart B--Requirements for Specific Standardized Canned Vegetables

Sec. 155.194 Catsup.

(a)Identity --(1)Definition. Catsup, ketchup, or catchup is the food prepared from one or any combination of two or more of the following optional tomato ingredients: (i) Tomato concentrate as defined in 155.191(a)(1), except that lemon juice, concentrated lemon juice, or safe and suitable organic acids may be used in quantities no greater than necessary to adjust the pH, and in compliance with 155.191(b). (ii) The liquid derived from mature tomatoes of the red or reddish varietiesLycopersicum esculentum P. Mill. (iii) The liquid obtained from the residue from preparing such tomatoes for canning, consisting of peelings and cores with or without such tomatoes or pieces thereof. (iv) The liquid obtained from the residue from partial extraction of juice from such tomatoes. Such liquid is strained so as to exclude skins, seeds, and other coarse or hard substances in accordance with current good manufacturing practice. Prior to straining, food-grade hydrochloric acid may be added to the tomato material in an amount to obtain a pH no lower than 2.0. Such acid is then neutralized with food-grade sodium hydroxide so that the treated tomato material is restored to a pH of 4.2+/-0.2. The final composition of the food may be adjusted by concentration and/or by the addition of water. The food may contain salt (sodium chloride formed during acid neutralization shall be considered added salt) and is seasoned with ingredients as specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section. The food is preserved by heat sterilization (canning), refrigeration, or freezing. When sealed in a container to be held at ambient temperatures, it is so processed by heat, before or after sealing, as to prevent spoilage. (2)Ingredients. One or any combination of two or more of the following safe and suitable ingredients in each of the following categories is added to the tomato ingredients specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section: (i) Vinegars. (ii) Nutritive carbohydrate sweeteners. Such sweeteners if defined in part 168 of this chapter shall be as defined therein. (iii) Spices, flavoring, onions, or garlic. (3)Labeling. (i) The name of the food is "Catsup," "Ketchup," or "Catchup." (ii) The following shall be included as part of the name or in close proximity to the name of the food: (a ) The statement "Made from" or "Made in part from," as the case may be, "residual tomato material from canning" if the optional tomato ingredient specified in paragraph (a)(1)(iii) of this section or tomato concentrate containing the ingredient specified in 155.191(a)(1)(ii) is present. (b ) The statement "Made from" or "Made in part from," as the case may be, "residual tomato material from partial extraction of juice" if the optional tomato ingredient specified in paragraph (a)(1)(iv) of this section or tomato concentrate containing the ingredient specified in 155.191(a)(1)(iii) is present. (iii)Label declaration. Each of the ingredients used in the food shall be declared on the label as required by the applicable sections of parts 101 and 130 of this chapter; except that the name "tomato concentrate" may be used in lieu of the names "tomato puree," "tomato pulp," or "tomato paste" and when tomato concentrates are used, the labeling requirements of 155.191(a)(3)(ii)(a ) and (a)(3)(ii)(b ) do not apply. (b)Quality. (1) The standard of quality for catsup is as follows: The consistency of the finished food is such that its flow is not more than 14 centimeters in 30 seconds at 20 deg. C when tested in a Bostwick Consistometer in the following manner: Check temperature of mixture and adjust to 20+/-1 deg. C. The trough must also be at a temperature close to 20 deg. C. Adjust end-to-end level of Bostwick Consistometer by means of the spirit level placed in trough of instrument. Side-to-side level may be adjusted by means of the built-in spirit level. Transfer sample to the dry sample chamber of the Bostwick Consistometer. Fill the chamber slightly more than level full, avoiding air bubbles as far as possible. Pass a straight edge across top of chamber starting from the gate end to remove excess product. Release gate of instrument by gradual pressure on lever, holding the instrument down at the same time to prevent its movement as the gate is released. Immediately start the stop watch or interval timer, and after 30 seconds read the maximum distance of flow to the nearest 0.1 centimeter. Clean and dry the instrument and repeat the reading on another portion of sample. Do not wash instrument with hot water if it is to be used immediately for the next determination, as this may result in an increase in temperature of the sample. For highest accuracy, the instrument should be maintained at a temperature of 20+/-1 deg. C. If readings vary more than 0.2 centimeter, repeat a third time or until satisfactory agreement is obtained. Report the average of two or more readings, excluding any that appear to be abnormal. (2) Determine compliance as specified in 155.3(b). (3) If the quality of catsup falls below the standard prescribed in paragraphs (b) (1) and (2) of this section, the label shall bear the general statement of substandard quality specified in 130.14(a) of this chapter, in the manner and form therein specified, but in lieu of such general statement of substandard quality when the quality of the catsup falls below the standard, the label may bear the alternative statement, "Below Standard in Quality--Low Consistency." (c)Fill of container. (1) The standard of fill of container for catsup, as determined by the general method for fill of container prescribed in 130.12(b) of this chapter, is not less than 90 percent of the total capacity except: (i) When the food is frozen, or (ii) When the food is packaged in individual serving-size packages containing 56.7 grams (2 ounces) or less. (2) Determine compliance as specified in 155.3(b). (3) If the catsup falls below the standard of fill prescribed in paragraphs (c) (1) and (2) of this section, the label shall bear the general statement of substandard fill as specified in 130.14(b) of this chapter, in the manner and form therein specified. [48 FR 3956, Jan. 28, 1983, as amended at 49 FR 15073, Apr. 17, 1984; 58 FR 2883, Jan. 6, 1993]

As can easily be seen, "sugar" is not one of the listed ingredients, never mind an essential ingredient.

[Philip Williamson]

Fat free half and half - I fell for that once (no idea why, it's not my style). Neither cream NOR milk! Half carageenan, half water? 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

I always hesitate to disagree with Steve, but if we’re going to rely on federal regulators to tell us what ketchup is, we’re in trouble.

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[Philip Williamson]

When we lived in Oregon, we'd go to Little Big Burger when we were in Portland. They served Portland Ketchup, which might fit your needs: http://www.madeinoregon.com/Natural-Ketchup-Portland-Ketchup-Company.html; my kid didn't like it, we actually took Heinz with us when we went. 

Now we go to a place called Remy's, in Santa Rosa, and get a big side of fries with three dipping condiments (ranch, bbq, 1000 island) in little bowls. Best fries ever; creamy on the inside, perfectly crisp on the outside. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/25/2013 03:42 PM, Allingham II, Thomas J wrote:

I always hesitate to disagree with Steve, but if we’re going to rely on federal regulators to tell us what ketchup is, we’re in trouble.

No, actually federal standards of identity are there to protect consumers.   For a further explanation, let me offer the following excerpt from Dorothy Sayers magnificent _Murder Must Advertise_:

"How about truth in advertising?"

"Of course, there is _some_ truth in advertising. There's yeast in
bread, but you can't make bread with yeast alone. Truth in advertising,"
announced Lord Peter sententiously, "is like leaven, which a woman hid
in three measures of meal. It provides a suitable quantity of gas, with
which to blow out a mass of crude misrepresentation into a form that the
public can swallow. Which incidentally brings me to the delicate and
important distinction between the words 'with' and 'from.' Suppose you
are advertising lemonade, or, not to be invidious, we will say perry. If
you say 'Our perry is made from fresh-plucked pears only,' then it's got
to be made from pears only, or the statement is actionable; if you just
say it is made 'from pears,' without the 'only,' the betting is that it
is probably made chiefly of pears; but if you say, 'made _with_ pears,'
you generally mean that you use a peck of pears to a ton of turnips, and
the law cannot touch you--such are the niceties of our English tongue."

"Make a note, Mary, next time you go shopping, and buy nothing that is
not 'from, only.' Proceed, Peter--and let us have a little less of your
English tongue."

or for the more legally minded, I offer this:  http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/foodlaw/processingsector/standardofidentity

[Bill Lindsay]

I know right?  What the hell is wrong with him?  Why doesn't he get his definition of things from Wikipedia like normal people?

harrumpf!

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

I believe one reason that book is so good is that Sayers worked (I’m pretty sure) in an ad agency and knew what she was talking about.

 

Oh, and, uh, rode a lugged steel bicycle?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/25/2013 04:00 PM, Allingham II, Thomas J wrote:

I believe one reason that book is so good is that Sayers worked (I’m pretty sure) in an ad agency and knew what she was talking about.

Yes indeed she did.  She was the author of the slogan "Guinness is Good For You."   Quoting the Wikipedia:

Sayers' longest employment was from 1922 to 1931 as a copywriter at S.H. Benson's advertising agency in London. This was located at International Buildings, Kingsway, London. Sayers was quite successful as an advertiser. Her collaboration with artist John Gilroy resulted in "The Mustard Club" for Colman's Mustard and the Guinness "Zoo" advertisements, variations of which still appear today.

[Anne Paulson]

What do you think a "nutritive carbohydrate sweetener" is? It's *sugar*!

You may say that one can leave out the sugar, and it will still legally qualify as ketchup. Apparently so, but it is not going to taste like ketchup.

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[Deacon Patrick]

Which helps illustrate the point I'm making, Anne, that most people's tastebuds get so much sweet in the food they are used to eating so foods without it taste "wrong" even though they aren't.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/25/2013 04:13 PM, Anne Paulson wrote:

What do you think a "nutritive carbohydrate sweetener" is? It's *sugar*!

Sugar is a nutritive carbohydrate sweetener, but it is not the only one.  Others include include glucose, fructose, corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup, and sugar alcohols (e.g., sorbitol, mannitol, and xylitol), according to the Britannica.

One or any combination of two or more of the following safe and suitable ingredients in each of the following categories is added to the tomato ingredients specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section:

(i) Vinegars.

(ii) Nutritive carbohydrate sweeteners. Such sweeteners if defined in part 168 of this chapter shall be as defined therein.

(iii) Spices, flavoring, onions, or garlic.

Combing the verbiage with a fine-tooth comb I conclude that per the standard, "nutritive carbohydrate sweetener" is in fact a required ingredient.

You may say that one can leave out the sugar, and it will still legally qualify as ketchup. Apparently so, but it is not going to taste like ketchup.

AFAIK federal standards of identity prescribe what must be in a product, but not what it is supposed to taste like.

[Peter Morgano]

I just ate a snickers bar to see if it tasted right, yup it was delicious.  ;-)

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/25/2013 04:26 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:

I just ate a snickers bar to see if it tasted right, yup it was delicious.  ;-)

I don't think there's a federal standard of identity for "snickers bar" and I doubt there's a version made without sugar or other nutritive carbohydrate sweetener...

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Neutral corners, boys…

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 4:59 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Caveman ketchup

 

On 11/25/2013 04:26 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:

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[Deacon Patrick]

I'm sure it did.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Shoji Takahashi]

I've gone through all of these posts, and it's quite amusing! Now Grant will have to source some sugar-less ketchup from the farmers market so that we can buy some for the holidays. Bike Book and Ketchup anyone?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/25/2013 05:10 PM, Shoji Takahashi wrote:

I've gone through all of these posts, and it's quite amusing! Now Grant will have to source some sugar-less ketchup from the farmers market so that we can buy some for the holidays. Bike Book and Ketchup anyone?

Yes, you could spread it all over the hatchet and make a nice holiday tableaux...

[Garth]

   Debate ought to be spelled de-bait  .... lol.    Hook line and sinker.   Dangle a little something .... in this case catsup ..... and watch the feasting upon each other begin ;)

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Lizzie Borden?

 

Lizzie Borden took a hatchet,

And drenched her mom with lots of ketchup.

And when she saw what she’d done doed,

She gave her dad a dollop, too.

 

Yikes.  Time to get back to work.

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 5:18 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Caveman ketchup

 

On 11/25/2013 05:10 PM, Shoji Takahashi wrote:

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[Patrick Moore]

(Quietly tip-toe-ing out of the room, appalled by what he has spawned ...)

Patrick "aka Lizzie Borden aka Dorothy L Sayers" Moore, who wants to see the Fed Specs for potatoes (and who does, really, want to see Eric's Wife's recipe).

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/25/2013 06:34 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:

(Quietly tip-toe-ing out of the room, appalled by what he has spawned ...)

Patrick "aka Lizzie Borden aka Dorothy L Sayers" Moore, who wants to see the Fed Specs for potatoes (and who does, really, want to see Eric's Wife's recipe).

You asked for it, buddy

[Code of Federal Regulations]

[Title 21, Volume 2]

[Revised as of April 1, 2013]

[CITE: 21CFR155.200]

TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS

CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

SUBCHAPTER B--FOOD FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION

PART 155 -- CANNED VEGETABLES

Subpart B--Requirements for Specific Standardized Canned Vegetables

Sec. 155.200 Certain other canned vegetables.

(a) The canned vegetables for which definitions and standards of identity are prescribed by this section are those named in column I of the table set forth in paragraph (b) of this section. The vegetable ingredient in each such canned vegetable is obtained by proper preparation from the succulent vegetable prescribed in column II of such table. If two or more forms of such ingredient are designated in column III of such table, the vegetable in each such form is an optional ingredient. To the vegetable ingredient additional ingredients as required or permitted by paragraph (c) of this section are added, and the food is sealed in a container and so processed by heat as to prevent spoilage. (b) The table referred to in paragraph (a) of this section is as follows: I--Name or synonym of canned vegetable II--Source III--Optional forms of vegetable ingredient Artichokes Flower buds of the artichoke plant Whole; half or halves or halved; whole hearts; halved hearts; quartered hearts. Asparagus Edible portions of sprouts of the asparagus plant, as follows: 3 and 3/4 in or more of upper end Stalks or spears. 3 and 3/4 in or more of peeled upper end Peeled stalks or peeled spears. Not less than 2 and 3/4 in but less than 3 and 3/4 in of upper end Tips. Less than 2 and 3/4 in of upper end Points. Sprouts cut in pieces Cut stalks or cut spears. Sprouts from which the tip has been removed, cut in pieces Bottom cuts or cuts--tips removed. Bean sprouts Sprouts of the Mung bean Shelled beans Seed shelled from green or wax bean pods, with or without snaps (pieces of immature unshelled pods) Lima beans or butter beans Seed shelled from the pods of the lima bean plant Beets Root of the beet plant Whole; slices or sliced; quarters or quartered; dice or diced; cut; shoestring or French style or julienne. Beet greens Leaves, or leaves and immature root, of the beet plant Broccoli Heads of the broccoli plant Brussels sprouts Sprouts of the brussels sprouts plant Cabbage Cut pieces of the heads of the cabbage plant Carrots Root of the carrot plant Do. Cauliflower Cut pieces of the head of the cauliflower plant Celery Stalks of the celery plant Cut; hearts. Collards Leaves of the collard plant Dandelion greens Leaves of the dandelion plant Kale Leaves of the kale plant Mustard greens Leaves of the mustard plant Okra Pods of the okra plant Whole; cut. Onions Bulb of the onion plant Do. Parsnips Root of the parsnip plant Whole; quarters or quartered; slices or sliced; cut; shoestring or French style or julienne. Black-eye peas or black-eyed peas Seed shelled from pods of the black-eye pea plant, with or without snaps (pieces of immature unshelled pods) Field peas Seed shelled from pods of the field pea plant (other than the black-eye pea plant), with or without snaps (pieces of immature unshelled pods) Green sweet peppers Green pods of the sweet pepper plant Whole; halves or halved; pieces; dice or diced; strips; chopped. Red sweet peppers Red-ripe pods of the sweet pepper plant Do. Pimientos or pimentos Red-ripe pods of the pimiento, pimento, pepper plant Whole; halves or halved; pieces; dice or diced; slices or sliced; chopped. Potatoes Tuber of the potato plant Whole; slices or sliced; dice or diced; pieces; shoestring or French style or julienne; French fry cut. Rutabagas Root of the rutabaga plant Whole; quarters or quartered; slices or sliced; dice or diced; cut. Salsify Root of the salsify plant Spinach Leaves of the spinach plant Whole leaf; cut leaf or sliced; chopped. Sweet potatoes Tuber of the sweet potato plant Whole; mashed; pieces or cuts or cut (longitudinally cut halves may be named on labels as halves or halved in lieu of pieces or cuts or cut). Swiss chard Leaves of the Swiss chard plant Truffles Fruit of the truffle Turnip greens Leaves of the turnip plant Turnips Root of the turnip plant Whole; quarters or quartered; slices or sliced; dice or diced; cut. (c) Water is added to the vegetable ingredient, except that pimientos may be canned with or without added water, and sweet potatoes in mashed form are canned without added water. Asparagus may be canned with added water, asparagus juice, or a mixture of both. For the purposes of this section, asparagus juice is the clear, unfermented liquid expressed from the washed and heated sprouts or parts of sprouts of the asparagus plant, and mixtures of asparagus juice and water are considered to be water when such mixtures are used as a packing medium for canned asparagus. In the case of artichokes, a vinegar or any safe and suitable organic acid, which either is not a food additive as defined in section 201(s) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, or if it is a food additive as so defined, is used in conformity with regulations established pursuant to section 409 of the act, is added in such quantity as to reduce the pH of the finished canned vegetable to 4.5 or below. The following optional ingredients, in the case of the vegetables specified, may be added: (1) An edible vegetable oil, in the cases of artichokes and pimientos. (2) Snaps, in the cases of shelled beans, black-eyed peas, and field peas. (3) In the case of all vegetables (except canned mashed sweet potatoes as regards the seasonings listed in paragraph (c)(3)(iii) of this section) one or more of the following optional seasoning ingredients may be added in a quantity sufficient to season the food. (i) Refined sugar (sucrose). (ii) Refined corn sugar (dextrose). (iii) Corn sirup, glucose sirup. (iv) Dried corn sirup, dried glucose sirup. (v) Spice. (vi) A vinegar. (vii) Green peppers or red peppers which may be dried. (viii) Mint leaves. (ix) Onions, which may be dried. (x) Garlic, which may be dried. (xi) Horseradish. (xii) Lemon juice or concentrated lemon juice. (xiii) Butter or margarine in a quantity not less than 3 percent by weight of the finished food. When butter or margarine is added, safe and suitable emulsifiers or stabilizers, or both, may be added. When butter or margarine is added, no spice or flavoring simulating the color or flavor imparted by butter or margarine is used. (4) In the case of all vegetables, the following optional ingredients may be added: (i) Salt. (ii) Monosodium glutamate. (iii) Disodium inosinate complying with the provisions of 172.535 of this chapter. (iv) Disodium guanylate complying with the provisions of 172.530 of this chapter. (v) Hydrolyzed vegetable protein. (vi) Autolyzed yeast extract. (5) In the case of all vegetables flavoring (except artificial) may be added. (6) In the case of bean sprouts, lima beans, carrots, green sweet peppers, red sweet peppers, and potatoes, any safe and suitable calcium salts may be added as a firming agent. (7) In the case of canned artichokes packed in glass containers, ascorbic acid may be added in a quantity not to exceed 32 milligrams per 100 grams of the finished food. (8) In the case of canned asparagus, ascorbic acid, erythorbic acid, or the sodium salts of ascorbic acid or erythorbic acid may be added in an amount necessary to preserve color in the "white" and "green-tipped and white" color types. (9) In the case of canned asparagus packed in glass containers, stannous chloride may be added in a quantity not to exceed 15 parts per million calculated as tin (Sn), except that in the case of asparagus packed in glass containers with lids lined with an inert material the quantity of stannous chloride added may exceed 15 parts per million but not 20 parts per million calculated as tin (Sn). (10) In the case of canned black-eyed peas, disodium EDTA may be added in a quantity not to exceed 145 parts per million. (11) In the case of potatoes, calcium disodium EDTA may be added in a quantity not to exceed 110 parts per million. (12) A vinegar or any safe and suitable organic acid for all vegetables (except artichokes, in which the quantity of such optional ingredient is prescribed by the introductory text of paragraph (c) of this section) in a quantity which, together with the amount of any lemon juice or concentrated lemon juice that may be added, is not more than sufficient to permit effective processing by heat without discoloration or other impairment of the article. (d) The name of each canned vegetable for which a definition and standard of identity is prescribed by this section is the name or any synonym thereof whereby such vegetable is designated in column I of the table in paragraph (b) of this section. (e) When two or more forms of the vegetable are specified in column III of the table in paragraph (b) of this section, the label shall bear the specified word or words, or in case synonyms are so specified, one of such synonyms, showing the form of the vegetable ingredient present; except that in the case of canned spinach, if the whole leaf is the optional form used, the word "spinach" unmodified may be used in lieu of the words "whole leaf spinach". (f)(1) If the optional ingredient specified in paragraph (c)(1) of this section is present, the label shall bear the statement "___ oil added" or "With added ___ oil", the blank being filled in with the common or usual name of the oil. (2) If asparagus juice is used as a packing medium in canned asparagus, the label shall bear the statement "Packed in asparagus juice". (3) If the optional ingredient specified in paragraph (c)(2) of this section is present, the label shall bear the statement "With snaps". (g) The name of the food shall include a declaration of any flavoring that characterizes the product as specified in 101.22 of this chapter, and a declaration of any spice or seasoning that characterizes the product; for example, "with added spice", "seasoned with red peppers", "seasoned with butter". Wherever the name of the vegetable appears on the label so conspicuously as to be easily seen under customary conditions of purchase, the words and statements specified in paragraphs (e) and (f) (1) through (3) of this section shall immediately and conspicuously precede or follow such name, without intervening written, printed, or graphic matter, except that the varietal name of the vegetable may so intervene. (h)Label declaration. Each of the ingredients used in the food shall be declared on the label as required by the applicable sections of parts 101 and 130 of this chapter. [42 FR 14449, Mar. 15, 1977, as amended at 42 FR 30358, June 14, 1977; 46 FR 56410, Nov. 17, 1981; 48 FR 10813, Mar. 15, 1983; 49 FR 6711, Feb. 23, 1984; 58 FR 2883, Jan. 6, 1993; 59 FR 15052, Mar. 31, 1994]

[Anne Paulson]

Y'know, if you're looking for a tomato-based sauce with onions,
garlic, and a souring agent like vinegar, but no sugar, a sauce tastes
good with fried foods, you might want to pass the ketchup aisle and
head straight for the salsas. That's what a salsa is: tomato, usually
onions, garlic and some spices, and a souring agent (though it's more
typically lime juice than vinegar).

On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not too off topic, I hope, given all the "paelo" stuff.
>
> Can anyone recommend a ketchup that is not hugely over-sweetened like
> Heinz's typical, with all its corn syrup? I don't care about the carbs, I
> just very much dislike the way the sugar masks the flavor.
>
> I've found Westbrae here:
>
> http://www6.netrition.com/westbrae_veggie_ketchup.html
>
> at a reasonable price (not paying $7.50 for Dean and DeLuca), but how does
> it *taste*?
>
> Or can someone take me to a reliable (and personally tested, if recommended)
> recipe?
>
> Thanks.
>
> (And what wine goes best with ketchup?)

>
>
> --
> RESUMES THAT GET YOU NOTICED!
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> Albuquerque, NM
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[Deacon Patrick]

Up until the advent of processed foods, most "condiments" were fermented veggies w/ spices -- and that's where they got their zest from. Vinegar is the lazy, production line friendly way to get something sort of similar, but you lose a lot of the health benefits of fermented foods (gut flora high, for example). Of course fermenting ain't so easy. We've tried a few times and gotten naught but stink. Sardonic grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Hugh Smitham]

Anne,

Probably no reason to reply as others have made many good points...but just to speak for my self. 

As I'm sure you are aware refined sugar is ubiquitous and IMHO poison to our bodies.  If I used your chocolate metaphor I'd be removing the tomatoes from the Ketchup? That's not what I want, I want refined sugar removed or just never added.  The problem is as a society are palates are so accustomed to sugar that it takes a while to adjust to the flavors with out sugar. But the main reason I don't want to consume refined sugars are here in this article which I find intriguing.

The evidence may be inconclusive however I choose to reduce or eliminate as much refined sugar from my diet because the evidence is piling up which scares me. 

The Ketchup I spoke of has sugar added and though it's a small amount I wish it didn't. As Eric has said tomatoes and fruit have natural sugars so my preference would be to have any processed foods I eat to have as little to no added refined sugars.  

The chocolate I consume has in a (25g) serving sugar (lactose)2g, sugar alcohols (9g)  net impact carbs 2g and it taste sweet and luscious.

I hope this answers you question.

Best,

~Hugh

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Anne Paulson <anne.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm trying to understand what you want in the flavor here, Hugh. I can
understand trying to avoid high fructose corn syrup, and I also can
understand dialing down the sugar somewhat,  but isn't trying to have
unsweetened ketchup like having a chocolate bar without chocolate?
Ketchup is a fruit butter, so it's flavored with sugar (and a lot of
it) and vinegar (and a lot of it) to make it sweet and sour. If you
take out the sugar, you have sour. Sour is good, but in what way would
it be like ketchup?

On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, hsmitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Patrick,
>
> Don't know if you have Trader Joe's out there but they sell an organic
> ketchup that has 2 grams of sugar per table spoon like Deacon I'd like none.

--
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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[Hugh Smitham]

+1 on the recipe.

Best,

~Hugh

--

[Chris Halasz]

Patrick,

If it hasn't been mentioned already, Westbrae vegetarian unsweetened ketchup.

We usually find it at Whole Foods.

Very nice; we like it more than any sweetened.

Please let us know what you think.

Cheers,

Chris

[Norman Bone]

The horse is dead. For the love of Henry J. Heinz, take this offline!

For Deacon Patrick <frown>,

-Norm 'old stick in the ketchup' Bone

---

From: Chris Halasz <cha...@gmail.com>
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 9:29 PM

Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Caveman ketchup

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[Philip Williamson]

I heard Lizzie Borden was acquitted.

I love the Dorothy Sayers books! Thanks for that. I often think about the observation that in an advertising office, no work appears to get done at all, but suddenly the layouts and copy are ready for the printer. 

Also, now I can hassle my wife with, "Sure, your characters are compelling, but Cricket's no Peter Wimsey." Somehow, I don't think that would end well for my ego. As well it shouldn't. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

On Monday, November 25, 2013 2:22:46 PM UTC-8, Pudge wrote:

Lizzie Borden?

 

Lizzie Borden took a hatchet,

And drenched her mom with lots of ketchup.

And when she saw what she’d done doed,

She gave her dad a dollop, too.

 

Yikes.  Time to get back to work.

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 5:18 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Caveman ketchup

 

On 11/25/2013 05:10 PM, Shoji Takahashi wrote:

I've gone through all of these posts, and it's quite amusing! Now Grant will have to source some sugar-less ketchup from the farmers market so that we can buy some for the holidays. Bike Book and Ketchup anyone?

Yes, you could spread it all over the hatchet and make a nice holiday tableaux...

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[Bertin753]

Thanks--that was a brand I found that looked likely and is cheap, but I knew nothing of the taste. Will order some.

Patrick Moore
iPhone

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[Patrick Moore]

I live in the land of salsa, the land of HATCH -- salsas with, and even more without, tomatoes, salsas red, green, chipotle, jalapena, corn, hot, medium, mild, big industry, boutique, local -- good restaurants here make their own, along with their own chips (not "nachos" fer gawd's sake!); even perverse, yuppie fruit salsas. The standard grocery condiment aisle has dozens of choices. But, wonderful as they are, they aren't ketchup! -- they don't have the required sweetness (required for french fries, imo -- just not too much of it).

[EGNolan]

Sorry for the delay, I had no idea how starved for good ketchup the world is. Here's what I got from my lovely wife, though "we" do apparently use some sweetening...

 

Makes ~2.5 cups

 

4 whole cloves

1 bay leaf

1 stick cinnamon

1/4 tsp. celery seeds

1/4 tsp. chile flakes

1/4 tsp. whole allspice

2 lbs. tomatoes roughly chopped

1 1/2 tsp. kosher salt

1/2 cup white vinegar

5 tbsp. brown sugar (she said she uses a bit 'o honey* & a smidgeon of molasses instead) 

1 onion, chopped

1 anaheim chile, chopped

1 clove garlic

 

Once you've obtained all your necessaries it goes a bit like this:

 

Wrap cloves, bay leaf, cinnamon, celery seeds, chile flakes & allspice in cheesecloth.

Make it into a bundle and put it in your saucepan over mediumishhigh heat w/ tomatoes, salt, vinegar, honey/molasses, onion & anaheims.

Smash the garlic.

Cook & stir, stir & cook 'til them onions & chiles is soft. (a while; ~40 minutes?)

Remove your bundlaspice, puree (pu-ray) sauce in some sort og blending device until it meets your idea of what ketchup consistency should be. Me, I like mine smoove.

Strain said sauch through your meshiest strainer into a saucepan over medium heat.

Cook & stir again, until thickened. (a while; ~30 minutes)

 

Add salt & whatnots to your taste.

Put it in a mason jar. Put a lid on it. Use it within 3 weeks.

 

 

After stating all this, I'ma just order the Westbrae vegetarian unsweetened ketchup that was recommended for our next batch & see how that goes.

 

Best,

Eric

Indpls

 

 

*bit o' honey is an amount, not the TM'ed lil' candy that you initially thought

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Eric!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Anne Paulson]

About a third of a cup of sugar in about two and a half cups of
ketchup. Hardly any sugar.

[Deacon Patrick]

Antifreeze is sweet (they say). How would you feel about "hardly any antifreeze" in your ketchup? Or crack. Sugar is both a poison and highly addictive. Studies show Oreos are more addictive than cocaine. Extreme examples? Perhaps. But you might be amazed how eliminating all added sweetener from your diet would make you feel. See, the problem isn't the sweetener in the ketchup. It's that you have to use more and more for it to taste right. And everything else has to have "hardly any sugar" to taste right. Average daily sugar intake is stunning.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/26/2013 12:34 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote:

Antifreeze is sweet (they say). How would you feel about "hardly any antifreeze" in your ketchup? Or crack. Sugar is both a poison and highly addictive. Studies show Oreos are more addictive than cocaine. Extreme examples? Perhaps. But you might be amazed how eliminating all added sweetener from your diet would make you feel. See, the problem isn't the sweetener in the ketchup. It's that you have to use more and more for it to taste right. And everything else has to have "hardly any sugar" to taste right. Average daily sugar intake is stunning.

Those statements really are pretty extreme.  But you are overlooking a far more deadly food "additeive":  you really should be concerned with dihydrogen monoxide.

Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:

Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities. Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage. Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects. DHMO is a major component of acid rain. Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns. Contributes to soil erosion. Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals. Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits. Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes. Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions. Given to vicious dogs involved in recent deadly attacks. Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere, and in hurricanes including deadly storms in Florida, New Orleans and other areas of the southeastern U.S. Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

[Deacon Patrick]

No doubt! Water should be highly regulated (and the way things are going, it's only a matter of time...) Sardonic grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[sameness]

Cancer from the ocean, cancer from the sun
Straight to Hell we go

- 'Merican, Descendents

Jeff Hagedorn

Warragul, VIC Australia

[Peter Morgano]

Just had 5 oreos and no crack, it's a good night. I wish my life was so boring I could worry about friggin ketchup. Live a little people, me and my fellow atheists know this is the only life we got its all about balance.

--

[Patrick Moore]

If you really do care about Oreos, you will only move upward by devoting the rest of your life to the perfection of Ketchup.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/26/2013 09:55 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
> If you really do care about Oreos, you will only move upward by
> devoting the rest of your life to the perfection of Ketchup.

Yes, because the two taste the same, right?

Really, I don't understand the enormous fascination with ketchup on this
list. Given the nature of the list, I would have expected it would be
garum, not ketchup that would have caught everyone's fancy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum Historic, folkloric and nutritious
as well. For the do-it-yourselfers, here's a receipe:
http://www.coquinaria.nl/english/recipes/garum.htm

[Deacon Patrick]

Ketchup was likely originally fermented and that is the route we are gearing up to go (along with other fermented veggies) as my wife has now asked for a fermenting crock for Christmas. So you're not too far off, Steve. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick 

[Anne Paulson]

Kimchi. Sauerkraut. Yum.

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[Peter Morgano]

Kimchi with sriracha, yum

[Tim McNamara]

Come to think of, wouldn't caveman ketchup be a slice of tomato?

[Jim M.]

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:58:09 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:

Come to think of, wouldn't caveman ketchup be a slice of tomato?

Only New World cavefolk.

[Deacon Patrick]

As Jim aludes to, tomatoes as we know them did not exist until recently. The closest thing to catchup would have been fermented (insert ancient fruits or veggies here) that fell to the ground or somehow got collected, stored, forgotten and discovered. Talk about good gut flora! Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Steven Frederick]

Last time I looked at a carton of F/F 1/2&1/2 the first (non-dairy) ingredient was...corn syrup...

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Philip Williamson <philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fat free half and half - I fell for that once (no idea why, it's not my style). Neither cream NOR milk! Half carageenan, half water? 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

On Monday, November 25, 2013 9:30:30 AM UTC-8, Anne Paulson wrote:

I'm not arguing about whether you should like sweet things. You should
like what you like. I'm just saying that if you take ketchup, a
condiment whose main flavor is sweet, and you remove all the sugar,
you have something else other than ketchup. It might be something
delicious, but it's not ketchup.

(Also, fat-free half & half: Half what, and half what? It's a mystery to me.)

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com> wrote:
> Anne,
>
> Actually, once our family stopped eating sugar (and other sweeteners) all
> the time in most everything (seriously, look at the labels. If it's
> processed, it has some form of sugar in it, for starters), the natural
> flavors of real food wake up and are far more lively. Ketchup is a sauce,
> and has no need for sweetener.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick

>
>
> On Monday, November 25, 2013 10:10:10 AM UTC-7, Anne Paulson wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to understand what you want in the flavor here, Hugh. I can
>> understand trying to avoid high fructose corn syrup, and I also can
>> understand dialing down the sugar somewhat,  but isn't trying to have
>> unsweetened ketchup like having a chocolate bar without chocolate?
>> Ketchup is a fruit butter, so it's flavored with sugar (and a lot of
>> it) and vinegar (and a lot of it) to make it sweet and sour. If you
>> take out the sugar, you have sour. Sour is good, but in what way would
>> it be like ketchup?
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM, hsmitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Patrick,
>> >
>> > Don't know if you have Trader Joe's out there but they sell an organic
>> > ketchup that has 2 grams of sugar per table spoon like Deacon I'd like
>> > none.
>>

>> --
>> -- Anne Paulson
>>
>> It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
>
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--
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/26/2013 10:27 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote:
> Ketchup was likely originally fermented and that is the route we are
> gearing up to go (along with other fermented veggies) as my wife has
> now asked for a fermenting crock for Christmas. So you're not too far
> off, Steve. Grin.
>

Try before you buy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_sauce

[Bertin753]

What??? The Indians were hybridizing plants thousands of years ago. 

Patrick Moore

iPhone

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[Deacon Patrick]

Indeed. I'm referencing early encounters with fermented foods (and should include meat and fish in there as well), say 10,000+ years ago. Remember, we've been wandering this planet fairly human form for 3-4 million years, so that "+" can go back a looooooong ways. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Montclair BobbyB]

Gee, I think I see a commercial here... "Steve, have a Snickers Bar... When you get hungry you act like Kathleen Sebelius..." 

Let the cavemen have their own Ketchup... Heinz is the only ketchup for my fries... 

BB
On Monday, November 25, 2013 4:58:38 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 11/25/2013 04:26 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:

I just ate a snickers bar to see if it tasted right, yup it was delicious.  ;-)

I don't think there's a federal standard of identity for "snickers bar" and I doubt there's a version made without sugar or other nutritive carbohydrate sweetener...

On Nov 25, 2013 4:24 PM, "Steve Palincsar" <pali...@his.com> wrote:

On 11/25/2013 04:13 PM, Anne Paulson wrote:

What do you think a "nutritive carbohydrate sweetener" is? It's *sugar*!

Sugar is a nutritive carbohydrate sweetener, but it is not the only one.  Others include include glucose, fructose, corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup, and sugar alcohols (e.g., sorbitol, mannitol, and xylitol), according to the Britannica.

One or any combination of two or more of the following safe and suitable ingredients in each of the following categories is added to the tomato ingredients specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section:

(i) Vinegars.

(ii) Nutritive carbohydrate sweeteners. Such sweeteners if defined in part 168 of this chapter shall be as defined therein.

(iii) Spices, flavoring, onions, or garlic.

Combing the verbiage with a fine-tooth comb I conclude that per the standard, "nutritive carbohydrate sweetener" is in fact a required ingredient.

You may say that one can leave out the sugar, and it will still legally qualify as ketchup. Apparently so, but it is not going to taste like ketchup.

AFAIK federal standards of identity prescribe what must be in a product, but not what it is supposed to taste like.

[Montclair BobbyB]

HAH!!!

On Monday, November 25, 2013 5:22:46 PM UTC-5, Pudge wrote:

Lizzie Borden?

 

Lizzie Borden took a hatchet,

And drenched her mom with lots of ketchup.

And when she saw what she’d done doed,

She gave her dad a dollop, too.

 

Yikes.  Time to get back to work.

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 5:18 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Caveman ketchup

 

On 11/25/2013 05:10 PM, Shoji Takahashi wrote:

I've gone through all of these posts, and it's quite amusing! Now Grant will have to source some sugar-less ketchup from the farmers market so that we can buy some for the holidays. Bike Book and Ketchup anyone?

Yes, you could spread it all over the hatchet and make a nice holiday tableaux...

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