Advice on choosing a warm coat. Slight topic drift.

[hsmitham]

Need the collective wisdom of the Bunch here.

Need to update my S240 wardrobe as I plan on doing more high altitude camping...which of these do I go with?

This one is PrimaLoft synthetic insulation but apparently doesn't lose insulation capability even when wet and dries quickly.

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/76777?page=ascent-packaway-jacket&nav=p1d-hp# 

Next is this Down coat which has a water repellant treatment. 

http://www.rei.com/product/853044/marmot-ajax-down-jacket-mens

For me the variables are packs small, very good insulating (I get cold real easy) capability, and budget you'll notice that both of these are not too expensive, the PrimaLoft the least of the two. Thanks for looking and helping a chilly Brother.

~Hugh

[Curtis McKenzie]

I vote for the PrimaLoft. 

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[hsmitham]

I figured so but you also said your warm blooded for lack of a better scientific term.

~Hugh

On Monday, October 21, 2013 8:49:16 PM UTC-7, Curtis wrote:

I vote for the PrimaLoft. 

On Monday, October 21, 2013, hsmitham wrote:

Need the collective wisdom of the Bunch here.

Need to update my S240 wardrobe as I plan on doing more high altitude camping...which of these do I go with?

This one is PrimaLoft synthetic insulation but apparently doesn't lose insulation capability even when wet and dries quickly.

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/76777?page=ascent-packaway-jacket&nav=p1d-hp# 

Next is this Down coat which has a water repellant treatment. 

http://www.rei.com/product/853044/marmot-ajax-down-jacket-mens

For me the variables are packs small, very good insulating (I get cold real easy) capability, and budget you'll notice that both of these are not too expensive, the PrimaLoft the least of the two. Thanks for looking and helping a chilly Brother.

~Hugh

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[Anne Paulson]

I advise the down. I just got one of those down sweaters, a Patagonia
one. Spendy, but the first time I put it on, I thought, down sweater,
where have you been all my life?

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-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Michael]

I vote for whichever one has a double zipper, so you can open the bottom of the jacket so it doesn't bunch between your thighs and belly while riding.

I am looking for a double zip jacket now for myself.

[Mike Schiller]

I'm with Anne. I'd pick a down jacket.  Maybe something lighter than that Marmot model.  I have a Golite one that weighs 12 oz ( older model) and compresses really small.  check this page  http://www.golite.com/mens/down-synthetic

You can't get them wet, but down is the most compressible insulation out there and the warmest for it's weight..  That's what counts the most to me.

~mike

[Anne Paulson]

For me, the down sweater is not for riding; I don't think a down
sweater is a good choice for riding. The sweater is for being in camp
when it gets cold.

[sameness]

Consider layers over loft?

I get cold as well, and find that I'm* better served with my light-ish, nominally insulated Marmot wind jacket over a fleece zip-up or sweater underneath, plus regular shirt, undershirt, etc. 

That way my temp doesn't plummet when I remove my jacket and hop in the sleeping bag.

I've had it for years and years, so unsure of exact model, but I'm pretty sure it's part of the DriClime range, and the Stride Jacket appears to be their closest current iteration. I wanna say I paid $80 or so at REI.

Bonus, I also get to use it across more seasons by just subtracting layers as the weather permits.

*Just me, definitely not everyone else, and possibly not anyone else

Jeff Hagedorn

Warragul, VIC Australia

[Deacon Patrick]

A complex series of thoughts and my own experience with various materials in no particular order:

-- I detest synthetics. All I've ever owned (and that's a lot from when I was 14 and began backpacking in earnest and when I wised up at 35. Wow, 16 years of stupidity) hold scents through washings (and that's before my disability and ultra sensitivity to -- and we're talking stink, not just soap perfume and such). They are just plain bulky for their warmth and they do not move well with me. Blech. That said, I've never tried primaloft, so I'm no help to you there. I do know folks who swear by the stuff, Wiggy's being one of them and his gear is for high altitude alpining. Synthetics melt, wool doesn't (though it singes if held to the fire). Sparks from a campfire have turned may a fleece garment of mine into pox-marked swiss cheese as parts got turned back into milk-bottle-plastic. Never had that problem with wool. 

-- Layers are best. As you no doubt know, there is a dramatic difference between sitting in camp and moving on a bike in what you need to wear. The more you understand what works for you the better you will be prepared. My waist up layers are these:

-- wool t-shirt

-- thicker wool long-johns.

-- Cotton Chambrey shirt (great by itself as a sun shirt, or over the t- or long john as a wind breaker when colder -- when riding, that system works down to the 40's if no rain.)

-- Wooly Warm Sargent's Sweater (generally only worn in camp or on a lingering stop)

-- Down vest (from Feathered Friends, their warmest vest). I have only warn this in camp. The feeling of radiant eat that it gives is amazing and unparalleled by any synthetics I've ever worn.

-- For any temps below 20˚F, I'll take a Filson's bomber jacket as a final insulating layer. 

-- Rain jacket. the Pricy but perfect ventile. Fantastic layer over just my t-shirt, some of it, or all of it and I can wear it riding or at camp equally well. I put it on based on temp and wind and of course precipitation.

-- merino wool neck gaiter from Buff.

-- billed Possum hat (two layers thick)

-- Tilley cotton sun hat.

-- wool lined leather gloves.

The flexibility of these layers gives me a temp range of 100˚F+ down to 0˚F or below if needed at minimal space (it all fits in my large SaddleSack).

The disadvantage of down is it loses most (all?) insulating capacity if it gets wet. Thus, the key is to keep it from getting wet. That's why it's a poor layer to ride in (it's also generally too warm for riding in but you'll be sweating in it, but it's perfect for stops or around camp. Definitely have a good rain jacket for over it if needed -- though I only wear mine at 25˚F or lower, so it's snow at that point. Long descent ahead? Down may be perfect, though unless you know the descent I still prefer will because there are always unexpected hills to climb along the way.

-- Given the (warmth) weight of the garments you are considering, I'd personally suggest neither and turn you toward a Wooly Warm sweater. I love the Sargent's version for the elbow patches and my reality of living on the ground, which involves elbow abuse. A bit more bulk and weight? Likely. But for me it's well worth it.

-- It really boils down to what is the temperature range and sun/rain/snow/wind range you need to be ready for. In my case camping in the Colorado mountains, it's 90˚F to 20˚F in summer, colder Spring and Fall, and I don't camp in winter, with the possibility of any weather within 5 minutes of each other. 

-- I've learned the hard way that skimping on clothing is a bad way to go. Figure out the best garments for the widest range of your activity and weather needs, then find a way to pay for them (paying referring to money, weight and bulk). My down vest is compact and nearly no weight, but is seldom used above 20˚F. The rest of my layers are used all the time year round and are heavier/bulkier than their synthetic counterparts, but I am much happier in them and have a much better experience because of that.

-- As ever, your milage may vary. See your doctor before doing anything if you are that type of person. And other obvious "not my fault if you take my advice" disclaimers. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Paul]

I have a really similar primaloft jacket from REI, size L. It packs down to about the size of 1.25 1L Nalgenes, and weighs basically nothing. I can wear it over just a t-shirt down to about 20F and still be too warm. I don't really put a jacket on until it's mid 50s though, so YMMV. Either way though, it is very good insulation.

A why get a jacket that can't get wet? A sleeping bag is easy to keep dry, but a jacket you can't wear in the rain doesn't make much sense to me. Also it's cheaper.

[Ron Mc]

My choice would be to opt for breathable shell and insulation layers - you can always peel and stuff insulation layers, and still have protection from wind and wet, while a heavy coat is either on or off.  A quality parka shell is worth the price.  Sounds crazy expensive, but paid $400 for a North Face shell in 1986, and it is still my daily winter jacket after 27 years and it still looks good.  It still gets compliments.  

[Matthew J]

-- I detest synthetics. All I've ever owned (and that's a lot from when I was 14 and began backpacking in earnest and when I wised up at 35. Wow, 16 years of stupidity) hold scents through washings (and that's before my disability and ultra sensitivity to -- and we're talking stink, not just soap perfume and such). They are just plain bulky for their warmth and they do not move well with me. Blech. That said, I've never tried primaloft, so I'm no help to you there. I do know folks who swear by the stuff, Wiggy's being one of them and his gear is for high altitude alpining. Synthetics melt, wool doesn't (though it singes if held to the fire). Sparks from a campfire have turned may a fleece garment of mine into pox-marked swiss cheese as parts got turned back into milk-bottle-plastic. Never had that problem with wool.  

New synthetic insulation such as primaloft is much better than the older stuff. 

Ibex now offers jackets and vests with wool insulation.  Apparently very good warm to weight ratio but there are complaints about the zippers.  Won't be getting it at LL Bean and REI prices though.

I otherwise concur with your approach.  I wear layers topped with a wind breaker throughout the (not as cold as they used to be) northern Midwestern winters.  

[Garth]

I have worn both Primaloft jackets and down jackets for years.  The LLBean jacket you list is only 60gm weight per yard, which is very very light insulation, barely warmer than a 200 weight fleece .
The down jacket you listed is going to be much warmer, suitable for non riding/camp activities, which is what I assume you are wanting it for .

Primaloft does lose loft from frequent compression, down of course, does not.  Down lasts as long as you care for it.

Water repellent is not a big thing at camp as I assume you have shelter ! 

I own both down and Primaloft jackets, when I want the most warm for the least amount of weight and space, down is THE way :)

[jimD]

Down is luxurious (and expensive) and is great as long as kept dry.

Paul Petzold was a pioneering mountaineer. Here is what he wrote regarding insulation material

for sleeping bags which also applies to jackets: 

….

.

….

-JimD

[Zack]

if it is specific to riding (i.e. you are planning on wearing it while you ride!) i have a marmot dri clime jacket that is awesome.  it is my go-to cold weather jacket.  i wore mine all through vermont winters.  the key is that it blocks the wind.  it's almost like magic.

[Hugh Smitham]

Garth,

Well stated! I'm glad to hear you have both an were so able to define the differences for me. Thanks! Down is now in the lead.

Best,

~Hugh

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[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

I'm a layers man myself... wool and fleece underneath and a shell if conditions call for it. I like the versatility of layers. A Wolly Warm vest is a great insulation investment. 

I've always been envious of other's down jackets for the weight/warmth ratio. I picked up a patagonia quarter-zip down pullover sweater a few years ago. It was certainly warm, light and compressible. I used it on a few backpacking trips, but the swish-swish every time I moved drove me nuts. I'm never bothered by the swish-swish of others... just my own. I got rid of the sweater. 

I love my down sleeping bag... same swish-swish sound. Perhaps I move less in my sleep. 

Under the influence of AHH owner/list member Chris Chen, I recently bought a new shell from J&G Cyclewear. So far so good. 

What Zack said about blocking the wind... I've found that to be the key to staying warm. Also, a good tight knit wool beanie that covers your ears, wind resistant gloves and wool socks/leather shoes.  

Good luck, Hugh. 

--Smitty

 

On Monday, October 21, 2013 8:21:37 PM UTC-7, hsmitham wrote:

[Deacon Patrick]

Andy, that's why I only wear my down vest under my rain jacket. No swish swish.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Bryan]

Hi, Hugh

For hanging out around the campsite, down is the way to go. I have a North Face down jacket that I wear with a couple of layers of wool underneath on chilly winter boy scout camping trips in the So Cal mountains. For cycling, though, down is totally overkill. Back in my Wisconsin days, two or three layers with a windbreaker on top was all I needed down to about 0F. As stated above, the key for staying warm while riding is keeping your head, hands and feet warm and breaking the wind.

Bryan 

[Hugh Smitham]

I suppose I should have clarified that the jacket would be worn around the camp site exclusively post ride...I usually don't need many layers here in SoCal while riding but once I stop moving I cool down quickly ( as in the case of the last ride at 6200' approximate elevation), I would never consider riding with down for the previously mentioned reasons. I'm not too concerned with getting the jacket wet as if I thought there was a chance of precipitation I would bring my shell jacket and wear it over the other jacket if necessary. 

I apologize for not being more definitive in my questions. So far have benefited from the collective wisdom that have responded...please continue as I have not made a choice yet.

Let me add to the post, I have a Down Kelty sleeping bag rated from mid 30's or 40's ??? has anyone experience with liners that increase warmth slightly say 5 to 10 degrees? I thought rather then purchase another bag I could go this way, liner used in the Summer alone, Fall, Winter & Spring for extra warmth with down bag.

Best,

~Hugh

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:21 PM, hsmitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Deacon Patrick]

Hugh,

Find a bear. Shoot the bear. Skin the bear. Cook the bear. Eat the bear. Wear the bear. Plenty warm!

Sleeping bag: the first step is to sleep in the clothes you have if you get cold. That can give you an extra 20+ degrees and you're carrying them anyway. Still need more, look into the vapor barriers (Riv's looks good). Also, be sure to fluff your sleeping bag as soon as you make camp, so it has time to achieve maximum loft, and give it time to dry in the morning before packing it if at all possible (we let off a lot of moisture at night, as your tent walls will attest when it gets cold enough).

Failing that, go by the Rabobank, follow the instructions found in their name, and buy a Feathered Friends bag. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Hugh Smitham]

Dear Deacon,

We here in California like bears not necessarily to wear :-)

As much as I like the very best I can't justify taking advantage of a Dutch Banks poor name translation here in the Colony very wide GRIN...your advice with regards to the sleeping bag is sound advice, I did recently wear my wool long john's, beany and wool socks and was just slightly cold. I then added my down vest (it's too large for me hence looking for another) and warmed up but still was cold...my good friend Curtis made a sage comment that it's good to be a little cold as it gets you up and going in the AM.

Best,

~Hugh

[Curtis McKenzie]

Patrick,

You made my day with your response.  I will grin all the way home.

Ride Safe,

Curtis

On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com> wrote:

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[Deacon Patrick]

Och, Hugh! Any bank that has to pay out $1B in Libor charges deserves a bit of ribbing for it's name translating poorly, especially on a hard brain day when I'm lamely attempting to amuse myself. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Hugh Smitham]

No Ouch. Oh it amused me. Yeah all these slaps on the wrist amount to literally a pittance compared to the massive profits-Not so much a grin. 

Best,

~Hugh

[Deacon Patrick]

Och! = Scots for Ahhhhhh/Ooooooooo/Wow!. Very different from Ouch! Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Hugh Smitham]

Just a wee bit o' confusion :-)

Best,

~Hugh

[Mike Schiller]

Hugh...On the sleeping bag issue... if you wear extra clothes to bed, it's  warmer if they are dry and not  the ones you rode in all day.  Smell's nicer too. I carry a lightweight set of woollies just to sleep in when it's cold at night and my bag is marginal for the conditions. 

A few other options/questions.... what kind of pad are you using.  Is it  full length? The better ones can add significant warmth.  Another choice is a bivy bag (outer cover). They add 10 d  F to your bag.   

Of course, having the right bag  for the conditions in the 1st place may solve your issue.  

~mike

[Andy Smitty Schmidt]

I have a silk bag liner. It's ok. Probably adds a few degrees but kind of more hassle than it's worth. My bag is pretty warm and I'm more likely to need to unzip it in the middle of the night than want for more insulation. 

I use a 3/4 length pad and put a pannier or backpack under my feet if I'm sleeping on the ground (never my preference). 3/4 length is fine for the hammock... I sleep like a baby rocking in the breeze. 

--Smitty

[Eric Platt]

Have found I can sweat too much with a vapor barrier liner in my bag.  Have the one Rivendell sells, but only used it once.  Do agree a good pad helps.  Have a (Big Agnes?) inflatable pad that packs small.  Yes, a bother to blow up every night, but works as well as my big Therm-a-Rest pads used for car camping.

 

Another idea is to get a light wool skull cap and wear it to bed.  Have found that can make the difference between slightly uncomfortable and toasty warm.

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

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[Ron Mc]

Deac of Dalriata.  Hence the Pictish grin.  

[Deacon Patrick]

Maybe I'm used to Colorado dry (though we were anything but the latter half of Summer), but it seems to me if you're sweating enough into your clothes while riding that they are not dry by bed (or in Colorado 32.5 seconds after you're off the bike), that you may be wearing too much while riding? Also I was very plesently surprised to discover after eliminating grains and veggie oils from my diet that my sweat no longer stunk. Cool feature! Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Zack]

felt obligated to change my suggestion, the marmot dri clime windshirt would not be a great "post-ride" choice.  it keeps you warm if you are moving.  

i have patagonia down sweater, love it for post-ride/hanging out in the cold when i am not being "active."

[Philip Williamson]

Some people sweat really really well. Thoroughly. With conviction. Those people may also sleep hot. My normal temp is 96.8 instead of 98.6. I steam. My riding clothes will not dry before bed, but I'll be sticking a leg out of the bag before dawn to cool off.
Scottish German Irish Swiss adaptive?

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[jimD]

+1 on the marmot dry clime

-JimD

On Oct 22, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Zack <zac...@gmail.com> wrote:

if it is specific to riding (i.e. you are planning on wearing it while you ride!) i have a marmot dri clime jacket that is awesome.  it is my go-to cold weather jacket.  i wore mine all through vermont winters.  the key is that it blocks the wind.  it's almost like magic.

[ascpgh]

On my last stupid cold commute of last winter, I was sweating when I got to work. My body seems to go through and adjustment when riding; first is the insult of work versus rest. I breathe a little more and sweat as if I'm actually working. It all settles down before the tenth mile or so, no benefit for commuting. I still have to dress for the contingency of failure; the sub zero tube change or some other life threatening, cold-wrought, idiocy. 

I do commute with an extra insulating garment packed in my bag through winter, seems a good bit of habit for any S24O. Need something not made sticky feeling by that sub-dripping sweating from what seems like comfortable effort on the bike. I do find that being outdoors in the evening as the temps drop to be a real education in the dew point concept. Water is going to condensate at some thermal meniscus between your body heat/moisture engine core and the falling temps of your surroundings, dress accordingly.  Or as Ted Turner, at the helm of Courageous in the Americas Cup said of knots, during your inability to recall the correct one; tie enough of them. Take enough clothes.

Andy Cheatham 

Pittsburgh

[Patrick Moore]

I gave up over 10 years ago on what were then late-model tech in synthetic cold weather insulating gear (I forget the names; the two tops I had were thickish, dense knits that didn't stink after you sweat in them, and didn't pill like some of the other non-stinking plastic knits).

Despite their lack of odor, and though they felt warm enough in when riding, as soon as you stopped and your body began to cool, they began to feel clammy and cold. 

Wool, OTOH, doesn't feel clammy and cold when you stop, and I also find it comfortable in a far wider range of temperatures (as long as these temperatures are below 70F). I'd often come in from a 10-to-15 mile morning commute wearing a ls wool jersey under a vest of some sort, and wear the jersey alone comfortably for a couple of hours at an inside temperature that was some 30* to 40* F warmer than outside. And of course, no stink.

One other quality of wool: it keeps me warmer in wind, despite its porousness, than other knits; I will often wear a ls wool jersey over a ss one in temperatures of about 40F without discomfort despite the breeze generated by riding. In fact, a thick, ragg wool Rivendell wooly warm ls jersey sweater over a ls wool jersey, plus hat and gloves and leg covering, is fine down to freezing if it is not too windy. Dry climate, but our percentages on cold, winter mornings can be over 50%.

On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 6:08 PM, ascpgh <asc...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Snip] I do commute with an extra insulating garment packed in my bag through winter, seems a good bit of habit for any S24O. Need something not made sticky feeling by that sub-dripping sweating from what seems like comfortable effort on the bike. I do find that being outdoors in the evening as the temps drop to be a real education in the dew point concept. Water is going to condensate at some thermal meniscus between your body heat/moisture engine core and the falling temps of your surroundings, dress accordingly.  Or as Ted Turner, at the helm of Courageous in the Americas Cup said of knots, during your inability to recall the correct one; tie enough of them. Take enough clothes.

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[Ron Mc]

exactly - synthetic fleece makes you sweat and loses insulation value when its wet.  

I trout fish in the winter, and if synthetic fleece gloves get wet, they're useless.  Filson merino wool gloves will keep your hands warm even if they're wet.  

[Patrick Moore]

Ron: how do those fingerless ragg wool gloves do in wind, or while riding in temperatures below freezing? One problem I encounter almost always is cold thumbs and middle fingers, the digits that always press against the surface of fingered gloves -- even those worn too large. The only really warm combo I've used (beside down-filled mittens one day X-country skiing at -20F) were thick ragg mittens under an oversized nylon mitten; but those were very awkward riding gloves since they hindered braking and, certainly, shifting.

I wonder how thick ragg five-fingered gloves, full finger or half, do for cold riding.

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[Deacon Patrick]

I'm not Ron, but the glove system I settled on years ago is a medium-thick wool glove with a upsized leather glove over it. When exerting, this works great to -10˚F or so. I add a cotton/leather over mitt when it's colder or I'm not active as needed.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

I decided to try something like this last year, tho' not using ragg wool undergloves but regular PI or whatever gloves. Knit liners for 40F, lightly padded gloves for down to 32F, then some heavy oversized leather work gloves, then some thick leather mitts. It seems as if you get more warm per bulk unit with wool. Minus 10F is far colder than I'll ride; only down to mid teens for me.

[Deacon Patrick]

At -10˚F it a short ride, to the Post or the waterfalls, so at most a few miles.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Ron Mc]

it doesn't get that cold here.  We have a few mornings in the teens, but that means a sunny afternoon in the 50s or 60s.  Now serious cold here is mid-30s and 90% humidity.  That mostly keeps us in, but full-finger cycling gloves are enough for any winter riding we will do here (and we will usually layer down before we come home).  I've been on the North Slope in a Stage II blow (50mph, 10 below).  They don't make enough layers for that, because it strips the warm air film away.  

[Mike On A Bike]

As the OP rides in SoCal, I would recommend my personal setup (in North Carolina) of a Patagonia down vest with a Marmot "Optima" Gore-Tex (paclite) shell. I actually like the vest over a long sleeve wool layer when riding in the cold (doesn't overheat, usually), and the Optima jacket is the first jacket I've had that's actually waterproof and breathable/light. I also have a Patagonia down sweater but rarely wear it here since it doesn't really get extremely cold. 

The Optima jacket is available at a pretty good discount from Sierra Trading Post (google retailmenot.com for coupons): http://www.sierratradingpost.com/marmot-optima-gore-tex-paclite-jacket-waterproof-for-men~p~3969d

[Matthew J]

I use Dachstein wool gloves with silk base layer gloves on the real cold commutes here in Chicago.  For some reason the good Dachsteins are almost impossible to source from the U.S.  Some European on line sales outlets carry them, but hit or miss.  Fortunately I have a relative who skis in Switzerland from time to time who picks up a few pair for me.

[Matthew J]

Following up on my earlier post about the Ibex Wool Aire jackets where I noted some first year buyers had problems with the zipper.

The Ibex website now reports the zipper is reworked for this year's model.  

Pretty sure I will get one.  Not for riding - I am with those who prefer layers over one heavy coat.  But it will be nice to have a light warm jacket to pack on cold season camping trips and to wear for cold night star gazing.

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 8:05:10 AM UTC-5, Matthew J wrote:

-- I detest synthetics. All I've ever owned (and that's a lot from when I was 14 and began backpacking in earnest and when I wised up at 35. Wow, 16 years of stupidity) hold scents through washings (and that's before my disability and ultra sensitivity to -- and we're talking stink, not just soap perfume and such). They are just plain bulky for their warmth and they do not move well with me. Blech. That said, I've never tried primaloft, so I'm no help to you there. I do know folks who swear by the stuff, Wiggy's being one of them and his gear is for high altitude alpining. Synthetics melt, wool doesn't (though it singes if held to the fire). Sparks from a campfire have turned may a fleece garment of mine into pox-marked swiss cheese as parts got turned back into milk-bottle-plastic. Never had that problem with wool.  

New synthetic insulation such as primaloft is much better than the older stuff. 

Ibex now offers jackets and vests with wool insulation.  Apparently very good warm to weight ratio but there are complaints about the zippers.  Won't be getting it at LL Bean and REI prices though.

I otherwise concur with your approach.  I wear layers topped with a wind breaker throughout the (not as cold as they used to be) northern Midwestern winters.