Sam or Cheviot - what would you get for an all rounder?

[DS]

While I patiently wait for a 54cm Quickbeam (ahem....anyone?) to show up for sale one place or another, I'm starting to think about a Sam or Cheviot for an all rounder/commuter/child seat carrier/grocery run/dyno light and fenders/all weather/occasional road ride/s240 bike. I have a Hunqapillar that fits that bill now, but I think long term I'll leave the Hunq as a dedicated mtn bike and fix up a Sam or Cheviot as my city bike. I also have another fast-ish road bike but that doesn't and won't have any racks or fenders or lights. Or as another option, wait on these new bikes (Clem Smith and mystery bike).

So, for all you Rivsters, if you were to buy a bike like that today, would you go Sam or Cheviot (since those are the lower priced models, they're the only thing on the radar). Or if you already have one for that purpose, would you stick with it or buy the other?

(Personally, I'm leaning towards the Cheviot as having a step through in conjunction with a stem mounted child seat makes getting on and off the bike easier. But in a few years that won't matter, and these bikes are a buy it for life, or a long time anyway).

[Minh]

I have a Sam, and i'd vote for the Cheviot.  I use a QB (sorry 60cm :) ) as a general cruiser and the high top tube is a pain sometimes with a lot of things in the basket.  

The Sam would work fine, but the Cheviot is more practical to me.

[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi DS,

Since you've got a Hunqapillar and a go-fast-ish, I also vote for the Cheviot. I'm also curious about the ride having those loooong chain stays. 

You could wait for the Clem, Appaloosa, etc.,... but who knows when/if they'll be available.

shoji

On Thursday, September 18, 2014 3:57:43 PM UTC-4, DS wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

I'd preorder a Cheviut in that swank new metallic barfo green.  You can be the first person to get one!

[David Stein]

Yeah, I don't know about that color, maybe it looks awesome in person, anyway...already got a green bike ;). Isn't the whole n+1 thing about collecting colors anyway?

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[Bill Lindsay]

Color collecting is a big part of it.  I was projecting my desire for a barfo green Cheviut onto you.  I already have three orange bikes and zero green ones, so....

[Dan McNamara]

I went Cheviot for just those purposes. Actually for rear-mounted child seat but the ability to stand without worry is a big plus in either child seat scenario. Also figured that a step-through frame would be a bonus as the years go by. And the Cheviot is still a great bike for trails and S24Os.

The green is gong to be awesome but the orange is pretty great. 

Dan

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[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Step-throughs are really great. Can't say enough good things about them!

[Will]

Cheviot. Three reasons:

1) long chainstays give you great pannier clearance.
2) the second set of seat stays = really strong rear triangle = great for cargo trailers.
3) mixte bikes are less attractive to thieves.

[Dan McNamara]

Thinking about it for a bit, the only drawback to the Cheviot is the lack of bottle cage mounts. The 55 has one. A second one could go on the down tube as on the Sam. Sure there is a reason for it being the way it is. Using a Pass and Stow porteur rack with a Freight Baggage rack bag so there plenty of room to carry additional liquids. 

But it is a minus for riding without the rack and bag.

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[DS]

A lot of love for the Cheviot!  The single set of water bottle mounts is strange for rivendell. But agreed, the only time i'd really need two sets are for s240's and i can carry additional water in a rack or bag at that point. Step thru definitely seems to be an important piece here. And I definitely thought about theft appeal on Cheviot v. Sam.

[hangtownmatt]

DS,  if you are leaning towards a Mixte have you considered a discontinued Betty Foy or the manly Yves Gomez?  I ask, because I see a trend happening at Rivendell where the chain stays keep getting longer and longer.  And I "think" the chain stays on the Chevoit are longer than the previous model, and future models (i.e. Clem Smith and mystery bike) may be even longer.  Not that there's anything wrong with that, but shorter chain stays do make for a sportier ride, and this feature could become non-existent in Rivendell's future entry level line-up.  I have a Sam and I'm glad I do.  I'm sorry to see them go, and suspect they will never be back; just like the Quickbeam, Simpleone, Bomba-whatever and so on.

JMHO,

Matt

On Thursday, September 18, 2014 12:57:43 PM UTC-7, DS wrote:

[David Stein]

I did look into they Yves a bit and kind of remember it from the website back in the day when I could only window shop. Totally open to that too. Can't recall every seeing one pop up for sale on the list or my saved ebay searches though. 

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[Bill Lindsay]

Jan disagrees with the notion that short chainstays result in a sportier ride. 

"Some riders and builders believe that longer chainstays make the bike more stable....In practice, we have found chainstay length does not noticeably influence the bike's stability."

Bicycle Quarterly Volume 10 No 2.  page 46.

Jan goes on to describe the controlled experiment he conducted to arrive at his conclusion that chainstay length doesn't matter.  One of the many topics where Jan and Grant agree, and disagree with a lot of conventional wisdom.  I've ridden the Betty Foy, the Cheviut and the Appaloosa, and they are all incredibly fun to ride. 

[hangtownmatt]

Bill, I will not disagree that the Betty Foy, Chevoit and Appaloosa are all fun to ride, but I would hope they all have different ride characteristics. Otherwise, we would simply be debating colors and head badges.

Matt

[Bill Lindsay]

Matt 

I was merely pointing out the counter-opinion to your humble opinion that chainstay length has something to do with ride quality.  Your opinion is the majority opinion, no question.  Jan and Grant have a different opinion, that's all.  They are in the minority, but they might be right.  

I agree with you that anybody who wants a Cheviut who finds the opportunity to buy a Betty at a fair second hand price should consider it.  Not because the Betty is sportier and not because the Yves Gomez is manlier, but because at second-hand prices either would probably be a lot cheaper, and because they would ride the same.  

Bill whose-wife-rides-a-manly-Yves-Gomez Lindsay

[Evan]

Hi Bill,

If chainstay length doesn't matter/makes no difference in ride quality--such as making a bike more or less stable, or lively, or able to climb well--then why bother to make a bike (such as Cheviot) with long chainstays and another bike (such as Yves) with medium chainstays and another bike (such as X0-1) with shortish chainstays? I'm not expecting you to speak for Grant or Jan or Keven or anything; just curious to hear your own take on this topic. I'd be surprised if a long chainstay's only real benefit is to obviate heel strike with panniers in place.

Thanks,

Evan E.

SF, CA

[Patrick Moore]

I was rather surprised to find that the chainstays of my Ram are 1-1.5 cm shorter than those on my 2 customs -- 43.5 per the geom chart versus 44.5 (center of horizontal dropouts) and yet the customs handle a bit quicker than does the Ram. The customs exhibit an unerring straight line stability while having perfectly "intuitive" turn-in. The Ram is more stable but slightly more sluggish in the turn-in.

In fact, the two customs -- pure road machines -- have stays as long as those on the Fargo.

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Matt 

I was merely pointing out the counter-opinion to your humble opinion that chainstay length has something to do with ride quality.  Your opinion is the majority opinion, no question.  Jan and Grant have a different opinion, that's all.  They are in the minority, but they might be right.  

On Thursday, September 18, 2014 9:53:40 PM UTC-7, hangtownmatt wrote:

[...] shorter chain stays do make for a sportier ride, and this feature could become non-existent in Rivendell's future entry level line-up.  

[Bill Lindsay]

Hi Evan

I would not claim to have made any conclusions for myself on this topic.  I haven't gone out of my way to set up two identical bikes where the only difference is chainstay length and ride them extensively.  Grant, Keven and Jan all have done exactly that experiment, and all three of them agree that they can't tell the difference.  Peter Weigle was Jan's co-experimenter, and he also agreed that he couldn't tell the difference.  I think their conclusions hold water because they approached it scientifically: Vary exactly one thing and see if there is a difference.  I learned the prevailing opinion with plausibility arguments.  You know how they go.  The first time you interact with bikes on the sales floor of the bike shop, the guy tells you:  "That's a touring model.  It's heavy, slow, comfortable and stable.  It has long chainstays and slack angles".  For the next bike the guy says "That's a racing model.  It's light fast, nimble, and you can feel the road.  It has short chainstays and steep angles".  I'm summarizing, but you know what I mean.  From that, you get the plausibility argument that long chainstays must yield stability and short chainstays must yield sportiness at least in part. 

Certainly there are expert builders who have bought into that plausibility argument.  You and I both have seen frame builders wanting to push it on the racy side with ultra short chainstays, split or dimpled or curved seat tubes to make them shorter.  There was the absolute prevalence of Campy 1010 dropouts that ostensibly allow you to adjust the handling of your bike.  Forward for a racy short wheelbase.  Back for a stable touring wheelbase.  But despite the fact that everybody had adjustible horizontal dropouts through the 60s 70s 80s, I've never met a rider who said he actually used them to adjust the feel of his bike.  I've played with them on my bikes, and I've never felt any difference.  

Now for sure there's some point where you notice.  Extreme case, I feel the long wheelbase on my tandem.  It feels long.  It definitely corners like my rear wheel is way behind me.  But even then, I still feel like it is the front end geometry that determines how it enters a turn.  The handling is not something I call "less sporty" or "more stable" due to the fact the rear wheel is multiple feet further back.  I feel the wheelbase difference for sure.  

Extracycles are another extreme.  I've never ridden one.  Maybe there's an extracycle user who can chime in and say what they think.  

So, to your question:  If it doesn't matter, then why do builders spec different chainstay lengths for different applications?  I think that's your question.  Clearly I don't know, and clearly not everybody thinks they don't matter.  I think you gave three Grant examples: XO-1 --> Betty --> Cheviut for a reason.  I think Grant would tell you he's learned a lot in the last 21 years.  I think he'd also tell you the constraints on his Bridgestone designs were myriad.  The XO-1 eventually became the Atlantis via the All-Rounder and the Atlantis has longer stays than the XO-1 ever did.  Most builders do build their bikes to sell, and so there is some level of going with what the customer wants.  Most builders also will buy the materials available to them and that's not unlimited.  I don't think you can buy 56cm chainstays from the tubing vendor.  I don't know how Rivendell got them for the Appaloosa.  

I think short chainstays is "normal".  I think builders will grow them if they think they need to grow them for the bike they are designing.  I've had a few situations in my cycling life where I've said "dang, I wish I had a little more room here.  I wish my chainstays were longer".  I've never run into the situation where I said "dang, I have too much room here and my bike handles badly.  I wish my chainstays were shorter".

These are only ideas and opinions.  I'm not trying to insult anyone who holds the majority opinion.  I don't have the answers or the conclusions.  I think it's an incredibly interesting topic, and I enjoy discussing it.  I think Rivendell is taking an enormous business risk by making these "weird looking" bikes.  I fear the majority of people will dismiss them for being weird looking and will assume they ride a particular way.  

[Christian]

Fantastic response Bill--a model of clarity, thoroughness, and thoughtfulness.  I have no stake in this debate; just thought your response was a good one.  As for me, I really have no idea of the chainstay lengths on my Terraferma, my Jones, my LHT, or Salsa Spearfish, nor own my now sold Hunqapillar.  That does not mean they're not important numbers, but they operate as part of an overall design not as elements in themselves.  In reading your reply I am reminded of the generic, near meaningless language repeated over and over again in mtn bike reviews, i.e. the newest issue of Dirt Rag I just read last night, whereby the reviewers repeat the same key phrases, sometimes in different order or whatever, to describe the ride of various bikes. 

Anyway.  Now I have stop procrastinating and finish grading! Have a good weekend all.

Christian 

[James Warren]

 

I buy into the idea that it's all a matter of how upright you sit. When you sit way upright (as encouraged by Cheviot and Appaloosa) the center of mass does move backward. In that case, lengthening the support base through longer chainstay seems to make sense.

 

Rivs' chainstays have generally lengthened during a number of years that has coincided with new, more upright cockpit options.

 

-Jim W.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Lindsay
Sent: Sep 19, 2014 7:10 AM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Sam or Cheviot - what would you get for an all rounder?

Jan disagrees with the notion that short chainstays result in a sportier
ride.

"Some riders and builders believe that longer chainstays make the bike more
stable....In practice, we have found chainstay length does not noticeably
influence the bike's stability."

Bicycle Quarterly Volume 10 No 2. page 46.

Jan goes on to describe the controlled experiment he conducted to arrive at
his conclusion that chainstay length doesn't matter. One of the many
topics where Jan and Grant agree, and disagree with a lot of conventional

wisdom. I've ridden the Betty Foy, the Cheviut and the Appaloosa, and they

are all incredibly fun to ride.

On Thursday, September 18, 2014 9:53:40 PM UTC-7, hangtownmatt wrote:
>

> DS, if you are leaning towards a Mixte have you considered a discontinued
> Betty Foy or the manly Yves Gomez? I ask, because I see a trend happening
> at Rivendell where the chain stays keep getting longer and longer. And I
> "think" the chain stays on the Chevoit are longer than the previous model,
> and future models (i.e. Clem Smith and mystery bike) may be even longer.

> Not that there's anything wrong with that, but shorter chain stays do make

> for a sportier ride, and this feature could become non-existent in

> Rivendell's future entry level line-up. I have a Sam and I'm glad I do.

> I'm sorry to see them go, and suspect they will never be back; just like
> the Quickbeam, Simpleone, Bomba-whatever and so on.
>
> JMHO,
>
> Matt
>
>
> On Thursday, September 18, 2014 12:57:43 PM UTC-7, DS wrote:
>>
>> While I patiently wait for a 54cm Quickbeam (ahem....anyone?) to show up
>> for sale one place or another, I'm starting to think about a Sam or Cheviot
>> for an all rounder/commuter/child seat carrier/grocery run/dyno light and
>> fenders/all weather/occasional road ride/s240 bike. I have a Hunqapillar
>> that fits that bill now, but I think long term I'll leave the Hunq as a
>> dedicated mtn bike and fix up a Sam or Cheviot as my city bike. I also have
>> another fast-ish road bike but that doesn't and won't have any racks or
>> fenders or lights. Or as another option, wait on these new bikes (Clem
>> Smith and mystery bike).
>>
>> So, for all you Rivsters, if you were to buy a bike like that today,
>> would you go Sam or Cheviot (since those are the lower priced models,
>> they're the only thing on the radar). Or if you already have one for that
>> purpose, would you stick with it or buy the other?
>>
>> (Personally, I'm leaning towards the Cheviot as having a step through in
>> conjunction with a stem mounted child seat makes getting on and off the
>> bike easier. But in a few years that won't matter, and these bikes are a
>> buy it for life, or a long time anyway).
>>
>

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[Garth]

  Neither !  lol    Too short in top tube for I .   I choose a custom , unless another model comes out :) 

[Evan]

Thanks, Bill, for answering. Chainstay length may indeed make little, if any, difference. And Jim W. makes a good point about uprightness. All that said, I find it easier to ride no-hands on my 1969 Raleigh Competition (~47 cm stays) than I do on my 1986 Univega Gran Rally (~43 cm), each bike with upright bars and a similar setup. But of course there are other factors at play beside chainstay length. Also, any perceived difference in "stability" could be psychosomatic.

[Bill Lindsay]

Yeah, no-handed rideability probably has many contributing factors besides wheelbase, front end geometry being on the list of course

[DS]

alright, #@)* it. getting a cheviot. rode one today a bit around walnut creek. so long hard earned money. hello new bike (next month). 

[Dan McNamara]

Congrats! It will be a great ride. 

Are you going Albas for the cockpit?

On Sep 20, 2014, at 5:03 PM, DS <davec...@gmail.com> wrote:

alright, #@)* it. getting a cheviot. rode one today a bit around walnut creek. so long hard earned money. hello new bike (next month). 

[DS]

Yep - I really wanted a bike that worked well with Albatross bars and the Cheviot I read was built around it. My other bikes are a Hunq/Albastache and Gunnar/drops. Only thing I need to add now is a quickbeam or quickbeam successor with Jitensha bars. And my life will be complete. No more new bikes. No more bike tinkering. I can live peacefully. N + 1 will just be 'N' ;)