Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

[Jon in the foothills of Central Colorado]

In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag

PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER

LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’

Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,

and diets have become the norm and

normal, and are so pervasive that many

adult cyclists, maybe even some you

know, accept the racing standards as

the only legitimate way to be a serious

adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the

book Just Ride — and what we do here

at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer

an alternative, a model to other adult

cyclists that there is another way. This

letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply

saying where I come from and what I

do.

We are the mice trying to squeak

above the roar at the base of the

waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,

but I try hard to not offend.

Inevitably, a declarative position on

any matter is bound to raise a few

hackles with those who have a different

position, but it still hurts to be judged

by a stranger who would probably like

me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.

A good number of our customers are

middle-aged and older folks trying to

fit in some activity as they age. They

often have the means, and they’re

influenced by what they read and see

that promotes racers as a good model —

and that’s something I don’t agree with.

They shop as innocents and come

out of it dressed like racers and riding

bikes that are not only inappropriate

for the kind of riding they do, but are,

on top of that and more egregiously, not

comfortable. We undo that. You may

see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t

feel either of those. I see racing and

racers as fringe and am simply trying

to legitimize an alternative point of

view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m

trying — certainly not singlehandedly —

to make people feel good about riding

without dressing in pro-team gear and

copying so many other affectations of

the racer, and that is what Unracing and

Just Ride and Rivendell Bicycle Works is

all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some

of my best friends pedal cliplessly and

in spandex. It’s cool.

Grant Petersen

Walnut Creek, California

[Bill Lindsay]

Can you share the letter to which Grant was responding?

[Patrick Moore]

I was just going to ask the same thing.

If you have followed Grant and Rivendell since 1994 -- heck, if you followed Bridgestone Bicycles USA before that -- you can easily see that Grant has had, I think it is fair to say, more influence in promoting, and making possible, a serious but not racing-bound style of cycling -- bikes, setup, frames, parts, clothing, accessories -- than anyone else I know of. 

I certainly don't buy in to all his ideas, but I own or have owned 5 Rivendell bicycles and many, many other Rivendell made or Rivendell supplied articles and I know that my own cycling tastes have been largely defined, and certainly made possible, by his influence.

The only thing I think cooler than riding in Seersucker and baggy pants and old tennis shoes is riding in old fashioned racing kit; at least wool jerseys and leather shoes and black tights.

Patrick "just kidding about the last bit" Moore

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.

By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.

Other professional writing services.

http://www.resumespecialties.com/

www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

*************************************

The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. Aristotle

The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. Dante  

[WETH]

The letter Grant responds to was published in the February 2015 issue on page 9 in response to an October/November 2014 article about Grant. I can't get my iPad to copy and paste the letter. Hopefully someone else will.

[Jim Bronson]

Grant is the man, period.

What a great and classy response.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Romel Jacinto]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 1:52:46 PM UTC-8, WETH wrote:

The letter Grant responds to was published in the February 2015 issue on page 9 in response to an October/November 2014 article about Grant.  I can't get my iPad to copy and paste the letter.  Hopefully someone else will.

Here's the letter in Adventure Cycling, Feb 15 issue that Grant is responding to.


UNRACING? UNCOOL.

Dan D’Ambrosio’s article about Grant
Petersen (October/November 2014)
neglected to mention his recent book,
Just Ride, which should be titled: Just
Ride (But Only My Way), in which a
cyclist is either a racer or an “unracer,”
and states that if you’re not a racer
you shouldn’t wear Lycra, use clipless
pedals, or ride a road bike.

Why? Because you’re not a racer
and also because his store doesn’t sell
Lycra or the cycling apparel you see on
bike tours or other organized rides. He
prefers wool and cotton, but the really
important thing is that we all need to
encourage cycling without judging
anyone’s attire or bikes. Turn the page
and the article by Ellee Thalheimer
is “Womantours,” an inspiring piece
about women touring together. Guess
what your photograph shows? A strong
woman in Lycra shorts and a bike
jersey.

Grant would object because she’s an
“unracer.” If he truly wanted everyone
to “Just Ride,” he wouldn’t care what
they wore or whether or not they rode
with skinny tires. Too bad that someone
with his background and skill uses his
knowledge to castigate cyclists who
don’t conform to his ideas of what we
“should” be doing. Grant needs to learn
that we “unracers” can buy all the gear
he says we don’t need, enjoy ourselves
on our bikes, and not judge others who
wear the wool and cotton gear he sells.

Just ride!

Norma Steinberg | Queens, New York

 

[Addison Wilhite]

Well, it's not nearly as eloquent as Grant's response, but she does make a few valid points.  I say that as a long time fan of the bstone, and now Riv, mode of riding.  20+ years riding certainly does give one the opportunity to develop a good B.S detector about the various industry factions and marketing hype that emerges, dies, and then reemerges.  One need only peruse my blog to see the various rides and bikes and equipment I find most useful.

Cheers,

Addison Wilhite, M.A. 

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”

Educator: Professional Portfolio

Blogger: Reno Rambler 

Bicycle Advocate: Regional Transportation Commission, Bicycle Pedestrian Advisory Committee

--

[Deacon Patrick]

Is that the best rhetoric (argument, in the technical sense) the racing crowd could produce? That rather says it all. Sardonic grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Chris in Redding, Ca.]

Hey All,

I think the critic of 'Just Ride' misses the point of 'Just Ride'. The error is hers. 

Chris

Redding, Ca.

[pb]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:25:08 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

Is that the best rhetoric (argument, in the technical sense) the racing crowd could produce? That rather says it all. Sardonic grin.

Huh?  To what are you referring?  What racing crowd?  Which argument?  Norma Steinberg's comments?  If so, what makes you think she represents "the racing crowd"?  Are you being snarky?  I would not have expected that from you.  "Snarky"?   (Sharply critical; cutting; snide?  Was that really your intention, Deacon?)

I notice that Grant's letter is much more compromising and middle-ground than he has been in the past, and I commend him for that.  "What I tried to do ... is offer an alternative."  "It hurts to be judged."  Well, perhaps there would be less judgment from others if there had been less judgment from him along the way (see Norma's last paragraph again).  In the past, his language has been rather less soft than in his recent letter, for instance, "it's a big fat lie."  I don't know about you, but I find that phrase off-putting.  Well, that was a long time ago, so I'm not going to dwell.  I'm just mentioning that as a contrast. 

I've said these things before, but here it is again.  I'm a big tent cyclist.  I was a licensed road racer for almost twenty years, and I've ridden with lots of folks whose names are well known.  I love old English three-speeds.  I really miss the Schwinn New World I used to bomb around the University of Colorado campus on.  I've done a good bit of loaded touring and will again.  I have owned lots of steel, lots of carbon, and lots of titanium, and I enjoy my Rambouillet as much as I enjoy my Hampsten ti custom and my Merlin Agilis, although I'm currently really smitten by my ti Serotta - Schwinn Paramount.  I read the Reader for a number of years, until I stopped, because in each edition, I found some comment from Grant which was openly, unmistakably insulting to "the racing crowd".  Why?  Why, over and over again?  Why not just do what he does well, no apology, and let it speak for itself?  It suddenly occurs to me that Ritchey and Fisher and Charlie Kelly didn't need to talk about how stupid road riding was when they started mountain biking, and they managed to create a movement that took over the world.  They didn't need buttons that said "unroadie".  They were too busy building and riding and enjoying bikes to be snarky.  It's not necessary to say the other guy is stupid to look good.  It's much better to just do the do.  

I've expressed this to Grant, and he has heard it, and he has said all the right things to me, and thank you very much, Grant, you and I are good.  I like Grant, and I do appreciate his intentions, but I think that he doesn't always communicate effectively, and I understand why sometimes other folks' hackles get up.  You know how humor doesn't always read well on the internet?  Kind'a like that.  So, let me encourage the Riv listers not to take up the sword, when Grant may have put it down.  A self-congratulatory sense of superiority is not charming.         

And now I'm going to go pull on a pair of lycra shorts, and a cotton polo shirt, and go for a dirt road ride on my Rambouillet.

Peter Bridge

San Diego

[Jim Bronson]

Why?  Why, over and over again?  Because the racing philosophy has the mainstream and the LBS.  And it's not what serves most causal riders best, and I applaud Grant for calling them out for it. 

We all have seen at the LBS the times when some racerish young LBS employee is trying to fit an older person onto a racerish bike, that will not be well served by said bike.  Why is this what's in the mainstream?

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[James Warren]

Agreed, Jim. Grant's intention with Just Ride was to make an aggressive statement about the legitimacy of cycling that is not racing. He clearly felt that the benefits of this aggression outweighed the risk of alienating some individuals. I fully agree. Making a few people peeved about bike stuff isn't really going to hurt the world in any way. But making other people aware of some great ideas about ways they can have a nice time on a bike can only help the world.

-Jim W.

James Warren

jimcw...@earthlink.net

- 700x33

[Deacon Patrick]

Peter, I was simply referencing that of the responses received, Ms. Sternberg's was presumably the best, as it was published. I'm not going to go into the flaws in her argument, other than to reiterate what Chris said that she misses the point of "Just Ride" and is thus responding to a straw man.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Matthew J]

Interesting Norma talks about the Lycra wearing tourists.  In fact, I think U.S. touring cyclists are influenced by either racers, marketing or both.

If you have toured in the U.S. and elsewhere, you quickly notice how much more prevalent are road style bikes with drop bars, cycling clothes, step in pedals are among U.S. tourers.  European, South American and Japanese cycle tourists on the other hand are far more likely to ride hybrid style bikes similar to late '80s early '90s MTBs with flat or butterfly bars, wear non-cycle specific clothes and use pedals without cleats. 

It is not to say there are not road racer style riding cyclists in Europe, South America and Japan.  There most certainly are.  Cycling is far more ingrained in the psyche in much of the rest of the world.  People there about to go on tour don't look to road racers for ideas.  They use what has worked well for them personally and tourists for decades. 

[pb]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 4:57:32 PM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:

Why?  Why, over and over again?  Because the racing philosophy has the mainstream and the LBS.  And it's not what serves most causal riders best, and I applaud Grant for calling them out for it. 

We all have seen at the LBS the times when some racerish young LBS employee is trying to fit an older person onto a racerish bike, that will not be well served by said bike.  Why is this what's in the mainstream?

I just got off the phone with three representative LBS's.  I asked them all the same thing:  I'm going to send my 58-year-old neighbor in to see you.  He has average fitness, not bad, hikes on the weekend, hasn't ridden a bike since college.  He wants to start riding on weekends, maybe work up riding more regularly.  What kind of bike do you think he should look at first?  The shops were Black Mountain Bicycles, a large Specialized dealer, the Performance near my house, and the Trek Super Store nearest to my house.

All three gave me the same answer: a flat bar road hybrid.  None said, well, duh, a racing bicycle, of course, with drop bars three inches below the saddle!  Then I asked about what tires would come with the bikes.  Both the Trek and Specialized stores said, somewhere between 32 and 38.  The guy at Performance said, 28 at the narrowest, but more likely 32 or 35.  Two of the three asked if I knew whether my friend had back or neck pain, and both suggested my friend should start off with something pretty upright.  The guy at Performance said, well, I'd really have to talk to him to find out what he wants to do with the bike.

So, are those answers OK with you, Jim?  How big a sample do I need to persuade you that stereotyping the industry, LBS's, and a group of cyclists, has the same value as other stereotypes?  By the way, do you know what bike shops make the most money on, the largest margins?  Rubber and softgoods.  If LBS's are as stupid and singleminded as you and, apparently, Grant think they are, and if they are pushing bikes that will make people uncomfortable, tell me, do you think their customers will come back and buy rubber and softgoods?  Will their customers be excited about riding, and bring their friends in to buy bikes?  

Do I think the racerish sale has ever happened?  Of course I know that it has.  There are poor salespeople, making inappropriate sales, in every industry.  However, tarring the bicycle industry, and a significant group of its members, all with the same brush, is not productive, and does not reflect well on the speaker.  The whole nonsense of making an entire group of people wrong so that you can feel superior just needs to stop.  And I gotta tell you, I've never heard any of the racer-y people I know say, those people on lugged steel bikes with alba bars sure are stupid and brainwashed.

I refer again to Norma's last paragraph.  Clearly, she has gotten an impression about Grant and about his positions, and it's not a positive impression.  I'm betting that she is in fact a nice person, and not a stupid one.  And, she's a cyclist!  However she arrived at her impression of Grant ... well, you draw your own conclusions.     

[Doug Williams]

pb,

Hmmm...I'm glad that you found a few good LBS's, but have you read a mainstream bicycle magazine recently? I see all sorts of articles and advertisements glorifying racing and bikes so lightweight that they are completely impractical for normal use. I see VERY few articles and advertisements featuring practical and reliable bikes or articles that espouse using a bike for transportation rather than for only racing or exercise. Transportation? What's that? A fun ride that isn't a race? What's that?

I don't think that Grant just invented this issue. The phenomena is quite real. Grant's message resonates with many because the racing phenomena IS real. 

And yes, I do (quite often) encounter smug racers in their spandex uniforms who disparage practical cyclists. They are mostly wannabe's and not real racers, of course. But they are numerous and annoying just the same.

Doug

[Goshen Peter]

My LBS literally scoffed when I asked if they sold any steel bikes. They said that steel is only on old and Walmart bikes. They had a nice all aluminum Stumpjumper, one of 3 bikes without a CF of suspension fork. So yeah I dont think grant is going all Nero on the bike biz but wants his somewhat outside the mainstream thoughts heard, doesn't seem so complicated to me.

--

[hsmitham]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 7:16:52 PM UTC-8, pb wrote:

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 4:57:32 PM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:

Why?  Why, over and over again?  Because the racing philosophy has the mainstream and the LBS.  And it's not what serves most causal riders best, and I applaud Grant for calling them out for it. 

We all have seen at the LBS the times when some racerish young LBS employee is trying to fit an older person onto a racerish bike, that will not be well served by said bike.  Why is this what's in the mainstream?

I just got off the phone with three representative LBS's.  I asked them all the same thing:  I'm going to send my 58-year-old neighbor in to see you.  He has average fitness, not bad, hikes on the weekend, hasn't ridden a bike since college.  He wants to start riding on weekends, maybe work up riding more regularly.  What kind of bike do you think he should look at first?  The shops were Black Mountain Bicycles, a large Specialized dealer, the Performance near my house, and the Trek Super Store nearest to my house.

All three gave me the same answer: a flat bar road hybrid.  None said, well, duh, a racing bicycle, of course, with drop bars three inches below the saddle!  Then I asked about what tires would come with the bikes.  Both the Trek and Specialized stores said, somewhere between 32 and 38.  The guy at Performance said, 28 at the narrowest, but more likely 32 or 35.  Two of the three asked if I knew whether my friend had back or neck pain, and both suggested my friend should start off with something pretty upright.  The guy at Performance said, well, I'd really have to talk to him to find out what he wants to do with the bike.

>Obviously Grant's message has trickled down or up (your preference) to your LBS. I think Norma is just being overly sensitive as is the case when someone makes a compelling argument that runs contrary to their paradigm. When trying to get your message out there especially against such a cacophony, at times it's required to make a bold loud statement. The U.S. bike store business practice promotes the race ethos to promote sales period. That practice is not always in the best interest of the people riding bikes for some fitness and pleasure. And yeah Grant is making a living but not to the extent of the multi-billion dollar bike industry. He's a small business supporting a small number of employee's with a positive message. He's not right on all things, but right on what matters. 

So, are those answers OK with you, Jim?  How big a sample do I need to persuade you that stereotyping the industry, LBS's, and a group of cyclists, has the same value as other stereotypes?  By the way, do you know what bike shops make the most money on, the largest margins?  Rubber and softgoods.  If LBS's are as stupid and singleminded as you and, apparently, Grant think they are, and if they are pushing bikes that will make people uncomfortable, tell me, do you think their customers will come back and buy rubber and softgoods?  Will their customers be excited about riding, and bring their friends in to buy bikes?  >People do all sorts of things against there own best interest.

Do I think the racerish sale has ever happened?  Of course I know that it has.  There are poor salespeople, making inappropriate sales, in every industry.  However, tarring the bicycle industry, and a significant group of its members, all with the same brush, is not productive, and does not reflect well on the speaker.  The whole nonsense of making an entire group of people wrong so that you can feel superior just needs to stop.  > Dude that's just plain horse***t. You really think that's what Grant is about? He's offering an alternative.  And I gotta tell you, I've never heard any of the racer-y people I know say, those people on lugged steel bikes with alba bars sure are stupid and brainwashed. >No they mostly just sneer as they pass you! Slow pokes on steel how Victorian! Grin.

I refer again to Norma's last paragraph.  Clearly, she has gotten an impression about Grant and about his positions, and it's not a positive impression.  I'm betting that she is in fact a nice person, and not a stupid one.  And, she's a cyclist!  However she arrived at her impression of Grant ... well, you draw your own conclusions.

Ultimately my conclusion is wear what you wan,t ride what want and listen to who you want! But above all don't get offended and most important be kind. 

~Hugh

  Los Angeles, CA

[pb]

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 8:18:22 PM UTC-8, Doug Williams wrote:

pb,

Hmmm...I'm glad that you found a few good LBS's,

No, I called three, and got three answers.  I made three calls.  I got three answers.  I chose the three because they were representative of three major corporate entities.

 

but have you read a mainstream bicycle magazine recently? I see all sorts of articles and advertisements glorifying racing and bikes so lightweight that they are completely impractical for normal use. I see VERY few articles and advertisements featuring practical and reliable bikes or articles that espouse using a bike for transportation rather than for only racing or exercise. Transportation? What's that? A fun ride that isn't a race? What's that?

Do you read Vogue to find articles on dungarees or Harris tweed?  Do you read GQ to find out what to wear when gardening?  I don't even know what the "mainstream bicycle magazines" are any more. I do know that Bicycling (does it still exist?) didn't offer a new article, or cover, in twenty years.  They just recycled the old ones on a regular basis (Climb better in 30 days!  Get faster in 30 days!  Prepare for a century in 30 days!  Get leaner in 30 days!).  I hope you don't pay to read it.  Doug, are you confusing magazines with actual journalism?  Magazines exist to make money, and they'll print whatever they think will sell copies.  Apparently what you think is interesting isn't what they think will sell copies.  Does that prove something about your local bicycle shop, or does it just indicate that maybe you're looking at the wrong magazine, which you knew before you picked it up.       

 

I don't think that Grant just invented this issue. The phenomena is quite real. Grant's message resonates with many because the racing phenomena IS real.

No, Grant didn't invent the issue, but he has fed the flames, and kept it alive, and he has perpetuated a stereotype, and he has offended folks along the way.  For no reason.  And I assure you that it has affected his bottom line by marginalizing him.  Canonize him for that if you wish. 

   

 And yes, I do (quite often) encounter smug racers in their spandex uniforms who disparage practical cyclists. They are mostly wannabe's and not real racers, of course. But they are numerous and annoying just the same.

Oh come on.  There are rude and irritating members of every population group.  Do they represent their groups as a whole?  See comments about stereotyping.  Also, people tend to see what they are looking for.  If you are looking for snotty racers, you'll probably find them.  Ironically, typing that reminds me of riding into my neighborhood one night from work.  My commute ride is about 40 quite hilly miles each way, a solid 2.5 hours, especially after a day of work, and I had ridden both ways that day, leaving the house in the morning at 5:30 (no, I do not do that commute both ways very often).  I was on a carbon Look, in lycra, and I had my clothes and shoes and files and a laptop in my Timbuktu.  I was riding very tiredly into my development, done for the day, when a fellow in jeans and a plaid shirt went spinning past me on a Surly.  He was sitting upright, and he ignored me as he spun past with a grin.  I guess he kicked my ass.  If it had been me passing him, I would have said hello, because I try to be friendly to other cyclists.     

Here is my suggestion to you and to Grant:  Promote and enjoy the kind of cycling and bicycles that you like, and let those things stand on their own feet.  If your LBS sucks and just wants to sell $15,000 Pinarellos and one-piece suits, go to another store, or mail order, but don't tell me that proves every LBS sucks, or that every customer of that LBS is an ass.  Don't sneer at other cyclists along the way, or if you do, they may say things like Norma Steinberg said.  There is sufficient rudeness and division in our world.  Don't perpetuate it.

Think about my comment about Ritchey and Fisher and Kelly not needing to belittle roadies to make mountain biking attractive.  The opposite happened -- suddenly it was cool to have two bikes!  Grant's ideas in Just Ride are fine.  Yeah, I've read it -- he sent me a copy, and I have it at my right hand.  It's just not necessary for anyone to prove that his ideas are right by proving that someone else's ideas are wrong.  Sometimes two ideas can be right at the same time, and to make an idea attractive does not require belittling another idea.  You want to go for a run, go for a run.  You want to go for a walk, go for a walk.  Runners and walkers don't need to call each other stupid or liars.    

[Goshen Peter]

Every runner knows those Damn walkers are just in the way 😉.... Must be winter.

--

[Addison Wilhite]

I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  I just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also accept the benefits of a fatter tire.  Maybe it's the rise of 'cross.  Likewise, walking into a bike shop anymore I can easily find "high performance" bikes that take a wider tire and plenty of steel.  

If you look at most magazines in the bike world these days they are dominated by "stories" of urban and adventure touring types of biking and all the products they are pushing to go along with those kinds of activities.  That's a whole lot of crossover with the Riv world.

Cheers,

Addison Wilhite, M.A. 

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”

Educator: Professional Portfolio

Blogger: Reno Rambler 

Bicycle Advocate: Regional Transportation Commission, Bicycle Pedestrian Advisory Committee

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 12:18 AM, Goshen Peter <uscpet...@gmail.com> wrote:

Every runner knows those Damn walkers are just in the way .... Must be winter.

[Ron Mc]

Every day, there are frightful sights in lycra on every bike path

[Jim Bronson]

Guilty as charged.  In fact I am definitely not an adherent to Grant's thoughts on cycling attire.  I'm wearing plum-smuggling cycling shorts every time I ride, unless it's a very, very short ride.

But unlike some folks, I don't feel any pressure to conform to the Unracer philosophy.  It's just more ideas about how to make cycling more enjoyable and accessible to all

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

Every day, there are frightful sights in lycra on every bike path

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 2:18:24 AM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:

Every runner knows those Damn walkers are just in the way .... Must be winter.

[Matthew J]

> No, Grant didn't invent the issue, but he has fed the flames, and kept it alive, and he has perpetuated a stereotype, and he has offended folks along the way.  For no reason.  And I assure you that it has affected his 

> bottom line by marginalizing him.

This appears to assume GP does what he does mercenary like looking for business.  For better or worse GP values his vision over the bottom line.  

[Will]

Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just curious. I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a before teenage years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and tee shirt have always worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop attire? 

[Ron Mc]

some of the arguments above need clarification.  Racing Crowd should be defined as the general trend of the industry.  It actually doesn't include actual racers.  Rather, it's a droves of cyclists who leave a bike shop with carbon and lycra, and an industry pushing them out the door that way.  In many cases, they would be better served by following Grant's model.  

The letter to the editor guy doesn't get one simple fact.  Everybody else is selling what he wants.  It's great that we have Rivendell providing an alternative for the rest of us.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/25/2015 09:41 AM, Will wrote:
> Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just
> curious. I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a
> before teenage years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and tee
> shirt have always worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop
> attire?

I will never forget the first time I tried to ride a century. It was
1973, and I had a P15 Paramount. I was wearing a T shirt, BVDs, cut off
denim jeans for shorts, some kind of sneakers and no gloves. By the end
of the ride I had branded into my memory the true meaning of the Johnny
Cash song "Ring of Fire" -- blazing lines of pain on my backside from
the seams on both underwear and denim shorts, parallel grooves of pain
in my feet where the edges of the pedals had transmitted their pressure
through the soles of my sneakers. My hands felt as though they were on
fire as well. Every 10 miles or so I'd stop and lie down on the ground
and try to will the agony away, but by mile 75 I realized I'd been
wishing a dog would run out in front of me so I could crash and just lay
down on the pavement. At that point I stopped and waited for the SAG
wagon. It's the only time I've ever SAGged back from a century.

[Joe Bernard]

When I started cycling in 1990 the landscape in Northern California was roadies in lycra, mountain bikers in lycra, and po' folks like me in street clothes on Goodwill beater bikes. There was no in between. Now there's a whole world of city bikes and country bikes and fixies and cargo bikes and Dutch bikes being ridden in all manner of gear. Not to mention tweed rides. All of this can be traced directly back to Grant's insistence that there was a better way for a large portion of adult cyclists to approach cycling, and this didn't happen by being "nice" about it. GP pushed this alternative loudly and often, and I don't think we would be where we are today if he hadn't. So I'm sorry if some folks feel like he's telling them they can't ride carbon bikes in team gear..that's not what he's saying. He's saying that it's not required to be considered a serious cyclist, and this was not the conventional wisdom when Rivendell started. Grant Petersen changed cycling.

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Will]

so... was all that discomfort related clothes... or related to position on bike?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/25/2015 10:30 AM, Will wrote:

so... was all that discomfort related clothes... or related to position on bike?

Clothes.  Cycling shoes eliminate foot pressure, cycling shorts have padding and no seams to create pressure ridges.  The following year with no changes other than clothing I did my first century in comfort.

Also, I did not mention because it wasn't a critical factor in that failure, but comparing lycra jerseys with cotton T shirts in hot and humid conditions such as metro-DC area summers, it's clear that lycra is far cooler and more comfortable.

The longer distances you ride and the more difficult conditions, in general the more clothing specific to the sport benefits you. 

That's not to say it's absolutely essential: on the first century I did complete, there was a kid who ride the whole thing barefoot on rat trap pedals.  Don't ask me how, my feet would have been raw meat.

[Mark Reimer]

I disagree with the previous statement. I've done many century rides in good quality (Assos) lyrca kit on a number of saddles. Usually around the 60 mile mark I'll start to get a bit sore. By the end of the ride, it's a constant dull ache. Doesn't matter if I use different brand of bibs/chamois, saddles, etc.

Last summer I did three long rides in a row (180km, 130km and 110km back to back) in the thinnest merino boxers and cotton shorts I could find. I was next to naked. Riding on a B17 Special that was only a few months old. My body felt fantastic the whole way, except for one section of trail filled with hidden gopher holes...ouch. I was amazed. 

I think the key to comfort definitely hinges on selecting the 'right' clothes and saddle, but what is 'right' does not ever have to be lycra/cycling kit. Nothing wrong with riding in that stuff, I do it all the time too. However, I've ridden 100km rides in Levi's and leather boots, felt fine. 

[Joe Bernard]

I learned from Grant that seamless shorts/pants and a good saddle are more important than padding. I actually got more comfortable on my usual 20-40-mile rides when I switched to wool unpadded underwear and Swrve baggy shorts; tight, padded lycra didn't work well for me. I can't vouch for what works on centuries, though..my body doesn't seem to like that distance on any bike in any type of clothing ;)

[Ron Mc]

Mark, I'm with you on this.  

In the Texas summer, cooling and evaporation is everything.  Padding = insulation = chaffing.  

[Matthew J]

The body and the riding style must have some play in this as well.

Presumably many of the loaded cycle touring Europeans one sees on the Eurovelo routes are riding multi-day.  They probably do not ride a full 100+km every day and likely stop more frequently than someone attempting a timed ride will.  Nonetheless it immediately jumps out at this U.S. person's eyes how many of them are not wearing cycle specific anything.

Lycra, Spandex, cycle shoes, etc are certainly available in Europe.  Euro road racing club members are just as likely to be wearing full race gear as those in the U.S.  Tourists however consistently hew to the GP ideal.  Either they are all masochists or they have discovered a happy medium many cycle tourists in the U.S. have not.

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Well, I've just typed out and deleted about four different comments to this thread.  None of them did anything other than unearth and compound arguments.  Rather than rehash and empower those, I found myself stepping back and considering perspectives in the original-letter-to-the-editor's communication which seem consistent to others who have voiced similar opinions over the years. 

One thing is that they make it sound as if Grant has taken this position in order to sell more bikes/clothing/gear.  That it is somehow inconsistent with his true nature, as put on as a fallen film-star's contrition. 

Another is that his position is binary.  Either/Or.  My Way/Highway. 

A third is that it is proven wrong through a single counter-example.  

It finds ramparts and entrenchments where many of us see only expansive fields.  Suggests battle lines which would put many of us at odds with ourselves. 

Many folks need no inducement to roll out and cover the miles. It's unlikely the book (or other writings) were offered for them.  The more time you've spent riding, the more you have fallen and learned, both metaphorically and literally. It's a natural process to leave behind those things which do not help.  It's needless weight on the climb of our life.  

Many folks need a hand up, a push on the saddle, an offering of a required tool, a draftable figure in a challenging headwind.  A different route through the forest. 

Doesn't make either way right or wrong.  Take what you will.  Leave what you don't require.

- Jim 

cyclofiend.com 

[Anne Paulson]

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite <addison...@gmail.com> wrote:

I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  I just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also accept the benefits of a fatter tire  

Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys with sublimated graphics.

There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is wrong and she needs a different one.

--

-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Ron Mc]

Jim, that's fair enough.  Whatever works is the correct solution, but even that is subjective and personal - what works for one doesn't work for another and vise-versa.  

[Mark Reimer]

"someone will explain to her that her bike is wrong"

cue *forehead smacking into desk*

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/F-3pQcXcdIw/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[drew beckmeyer]

well said jim. 

i think a rational skeptic's eye put to either side shows that a lot of the gear and the clothes and the style is more about taste than black and white better or worse. i definitely wont wear lycra for a host of reasons, but i also sometimes roll my eyes at seersucker knickers or whatever. i think to deny that there is chest puffery, machismo and judgement used to make people buy things they don't really need in the mainstream bike world is silly. i feel it whenever i go into a bike shop. i imagine that the guy in a lesser spandex suit feels it when the guy on a lighter bike and better spandex is next to him. i feel it on bikeforums. sometimes, though rarely, i feel it in rivendell related stuff.

the reason i bought a rivendell is because it felt like opting out of the system. getting quality, longevity, attractiveness in the process. i think rivendell, and the numerous companies that it has paved the way for, are really hitting that niche of people who have been turned off by being talked down to, peer pressured into getting something ridiculous (i bought a track bike once marketed as a commuter) and people who now avoid group rides. the fact that you see so many crappy linus bikes around tells me that the major brands have sort of lost touch with the normal bike rider, and people are feeling more and more ok about rejecting that paradigm. 

i dont need a fast bike, because im not a fast rider. that being said, i like some of them. i'd like to be able to understand some of the newer components and how they work. if i understood them, maybe i would buy one... probably not, but i dont know. i cant learn that information in a comfortable/equal footing sort of way. most bike people i come in contact with have a chip on their shoulder about one thing or another. grant and the rivendell people/website and people on this group have a super appealing, easy going way of explaining things, explaining their motive, explaining the pros and cons, and being transparent about other options out there.  ive learned a lot. ive never felt like i was bothering anyone. and hell, if you don't like those explanations, every other bike shop in america sells the other explanation. its not like lycra and carbon are being phased out because of rivendell. 

[Chris Chen]

"It finds ramparts and entrenchments where many of us see only expansive fields.  Suggests battle lines which would put many of us at odds with ourselves."

Hear Hear

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 9:38 AM, Cyclofiend Jim <cyclo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, I've just typed out and deleted about four different comments to this thread.  None of them did anything other than unearth and compound arguments.  Rather than rehash and empower those, I found myself stepping back and considering perspectives in the original-letter-to-the-editor's communication which seem consistent to others who have voiced similar opinions over the years. 

One thing is that they make it sound as if Grant has taken this position in order to sell more bikes/clothing/gear.  That it is somehow inconsistent with his true nature, as put on as a fallen film-star's contrition. 

Another is that his position is binary.  Either/Or.  My Way/Highway. 

A third is that it is proven wrong through a single counter-example.  

It finds ramparts and entrenchments where many of us see only expansive fields.  Suggests battle lines which would put many of us at odds with ourselves. 

Many folks need no inducement to roll out and cover the miles. It's unlikely the book (or other writings) were offered for them.  The more time you've spent riding, the more you have fallen and learned, both metaphorically and literally. It's a natural process to leave behind those things which do not help.  It's needless weight on the climb of our life.  

Many folks need a hand up, a push on the saddle, an offering of a required tool, a draftable figure in a challenging headwind.  A different route through the forest. 

Doesn't make either way right or wrong.  Take what you will.  Leave what don't require.

- Jim 

cyclofiend.com 

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

"I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah

[Addison Wilhite]

I don't live in Silicon Valley.  However, in the Reno/Tahoe areas we have multiple club rides that are going to be made up of the types of kits/bikes you mention.  But that is only a snapshot of the type of riding those people do.  That may be the perfect set up for a fast road ride of 30-50 miles with a bunch of club racer types on a Saturday morning.  On Sunday morning maybe they are grabbing their Fargos and doing a multisurface ride.  I certainly see that in the many people I know in the bike community.  Or maybe they are grabbing golf clubs and getting kitted out for a different type of recreation with different group of friends.  They are different horses in the stable and the type of ride you decide to use them on may determine a different kit/setup.  I find people way to quick to judge on the list when they look at another rider on a carbon bike in Lycra and assume that person was duped by a bike shop into pretending to be Chris Froome.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying it feels an awful lot like self-righteousness and it troubles me.

Now if you want to judge someone for eating pet food....  ;-)

Addison Wilhite, M.A. 

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology 

“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”

Educator: Professional Portfolio

Blogger: Reno Rambler 

Bicycle Advocate: Regional Transportation Commission, Bicycle Pedestrian Advisory Committee

--

[Anne Paulson]

Good to hear that's what's going on in Reno/Tahoe. But I've been a
member of my club for 30 years, so I know the other members. They
haven't got Fargos sitting in their garages. They're mostly afraid of
dirt, and they cancel rides *if the roads are wet*. No, I am not
making that up; they are afraid to ride not only during a rain, but
after a rain. (Not that this has limited their riding in the last
couple of years, unfortunately.)

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Addison Wilhite
<addison...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't live in Silicon Valley. However, in the Reno/Tahoe areas we have
> multiple club rides that are going to be made up of the types of kits/bikes
> you mention. But that is only a snapshot of the type of riding those people
> do. That may be the perfect set up for a fast road ride of 30-50 miles with
> a bunch of club racer types on a Saturday morning. On Sunday morning maybe
> they are grabbing their Fargos and doing a multisurface ride.

[Patrick Moore]

Paul and Jim: from what I observe around me in ABQ, NM, which is a cycling-enthusiast city, is that there are all kinds of riders riding all kinds of things, but I see more than a few fat middle aged people slowly riding carbon fiber racing bikes in tight lycra kit on the bike path. Now that may be their own choice, and if so, more power to them, but the phenomenon of plainly less-than-optimally fit riders equipped with racing, or at least, looks-like-racing gear, is there for all to see.

I think Grant is often somewhat intemperate in his assertions, but then he is also a small voice in a big, loud world, and there is thus some excuse for that.

FWIW: the 5 bike shops nearest my house, in order of proximity, and their stocks:

ABQ Bicycle: family store, mostly kids, hybrids, fixies (at least, during the fad), a few recumbents, a few tricycles. Displays various ancient DL-1s and cousins.

Fat Tire Cycles: a very big store with a wide array from top end racing thru cruisers and hybrids to top end mountain bikes; Surlys, too.

Hawk's Tri-Cycle: Mostly tri and racing, but some family stuff.

Stevie's Happy Bikes: A family shop: mostly hybrids, city bikes, cruisers, mountain bikes, and old cool stuff.

High Desert Bicycles: Mostly high end racing and mtb.

(All -- tho' I don't know Hawk's very well -- give good to excellent repair and upgrade service; they know how to order weird old parts for a '58 Herse, for example.)

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 8:16 PM, 'pb' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 4:57:32 PM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:

Why?  Why, over and over again?  Because the racing philosophy has the mainstream and the LBS.  And it's not what serves most causal riders best, and I applaud Grant for calling them out for it. 

We all have seen at the LBS the times when some racerish young LBS employee is trying to fit an older person onto a racerish bike, that will not be well served by said bike.  Why is this what's in the mainstream?

I just got off the phone with three representative LBS's.  I asked them all the same thing:  I'm going to send my 58-year-old neighbor in to see you.  He has average fitness, not bad, hikes on the weekend, hasn't ridden a bike since college.  He wants to start riding on weekends, maybe work up riding more regularly.  What kind of bike do you think he should look at first?  The shops were Black Mountain Bicycles, a large Specialized dealer, the Performance near my house, and the Trek Super Store nearest to my house.

All three gave me the same answer: a flat bar road hybrid.  None said, well, duh, a racing bicycle, of course, with drop bars three inches below the saddle!  Then I asked about what tires would come with the bikes.  Both the Trek and Specialized stores said, somewhere between 32 and 38.  The guy at Performance said, 28 at the narrowest, but more likely 32 or 35.  Two of the three asked if I knew whether my friend had back or neck pain, and both suggested my friend should start off with something pretty upright.  The guy at Performance said, well, I'd really have to talk to him to find out what he wants to do with the bike.

So, are those answers OK with you, Jim?  How big a sample do I need to persuade you that stereotyping the industry, LBS's, and a group of cyclists, has the same value as other stereotypes?  By the way, do you know what bike shops make the most money on, the largest margins?  Rubber and softgoods.  If LBS's are as stupid and singleminded as you and, apparently, Grant think they are, and if they are pushing bikes that will make people uncomfortable, tell me, do you think their customers will come back and buy rubber and softgoods?  Will their customers be excited about riding, and bring their friends in to buy bikes?  

Do I think the racerish sale has ever happened?  Of course I know that it has.  There are poor salespeople, making inappropriate sales, in every industry.  However, tarring the bicycle industry, and a significant group of its members, all with the same brush, is not productive, and does not reflect well on the speaker.  The whole nonsense of making an entire group of people wrong so that you can feel superior just needs to stop.  And I gotta tell you, I've never heard any of the racer-y people I know say, those people on lugged steel bikes with alba bars sure are stupid and brainwashed.

I refer again to Norma's last paragraph.  Clearly, she has gotten an impression about Grant and about his positions, and it's not a positive impression.  I'm betting that she is in fact a nice person, and not a stupid one.  And, she's a cyclist!  However she arrived at her impression of Grant ... well, you draw your own conclusions.     

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.

By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.

Other professional writing services.

http://www.resumespecialties.com/

www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

*************************************

The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. Aristotle

The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. Dante  

[Liesl]

I was in my early 40's  when I returned to biking.  The LBS in San Francisco didn't try to sell me a race bike, but it was clear that they thought if I didn't get a road/race bike, then I needed a Mountain Bike. I bought a Kona Fire Mountain and didn't really ride it much either in the Bay Area or in the Twin Cities where I've lived for the past 12 years.  Then, when I was in my late '40's, I saw my first Riv:  an Atlantis with m'bars and old first generation Baggins panniers.  I fell in love.  Crawled around the bike on my hands and knees in love.  I googled Riv.  I poured over the website.  I went to Riv when I visited the Bay Area.  More in love.  My wise partner said, "if you (mostly) commute to work on your current bike, then that would justify a Riv."  I rode my Kona through the year, in 90 degrees, in snow, in glorius weather...and then I got a Saluki in 2006.

I'm a rider now.  I'm a rider again—something I hadn't been since I was 18.  My Riv's, especially the audacious custom, feel like they are a part of me.

Even through I don't have one, the Atlantis brought me into the fold and Grant's writing, whenever and wherever I encountered it, enabled me to change my mindset and my way of being in the world to include bicycles.  What a gift.

I don't care what others do or ride or wear.  I just want others who may be in some way like me to have the same possibility of awakening.  Sometimes they do need that mouse squeaking above the roar of the waterfall.  I did.

-rcw

[Patrick Moore]

Well, not necessarily bike shop attire, but cycling-specific attire: less chafing, less binding, better coverage (I hate low-waisted pants that pull down, and short tops that pull up); less annoying flapping (windy, here); adapts well to changes in temperature, both external and internal; doesn't get caught in chains or on bottle cages; doesn't slip on pedals; keeps ears warm; etc etc.

Pockets in the back!!!!!

I do agree that bike fit and setup is the most important part of cycling comfort, though, and while I wear tights and cycling knickers in cooler weather, I never wear padded shorts.

Now, in hot weather, I'll maintain the principle of comfort and efficiency above all else by wearing baggy rayon shirts for the cooling effect.

I suppose each cyclist and his/her circumstances is/are different; I wish I could ride as fast and as far as I could as a youth when I covered long distances, fast, wearing jeans or cords and Safari Boots. But I remember chafing even then.

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I really think we're in the golden-age of awesome cycling right now! I believe that at this point, based on my personal anecdotal observations, so therefore 100% valid, a lot of riding is happening! And all kinds of people are riding all kinds of bikes wearing all kinds of things. 

So now that is cleared up, locally to me, we have a go-fast club in Lycra on MCRBs. Another club that wears the matching jersies, but on all kinds of bikes. A lot of commuters wearing street clothes. Tons of MTBers, mostly in Lycra I guess, but mixed a bit in apparel. There is a small but dedicated group of all-roaders that ride various stuff and wear various other stuff depending on the day/mood/goal/wash-cycle. I tend to hang out with the latter group the most. Surly is the brand I see the most with them.

Shop-wise, both local shops in town are upright and conscientious, with good people that love bikes working there. That said, I think they steer people to stock on hand. MCRB, 29er, 700C hybrid. Electra cruiser. Pick one. They can order a Surly, a Breezer, or a baked-feet, but for the most part they're going to suggest one of the four standards. I wish they carried more varied bikes, but they seem to be making money without my input on their business model!

I or most anyone on this list could walk in and have a great experience and up with a Salsa Vaya or similar on order. Would be a great bike, and we would be happy, but you have to know the right questions to ask. I think that's probably the only downside for coming in from the outside. 

[Deacon Patrick]

I loved that squeeking mouse at the base of a big waterfall image myself, and am thankful to Grant for being that mouse (and for the internet that helps the squeak for far!) for helping me find the fun in biking and even for making biking possible for me (the other frames I rode took a lot of brain energy to overcome their poor design -- a big deal for me, having a bludgeoned brain).

I save all kinds of brain energy because of Grant's challenging the status quo and my unquestioned adherence to it:

-- Ride in what I'm wearing, so not need to change. Brain energy saved!

-- Riding without a helmet isn't reckless, it can be an intelligent choice. (Weight rattling about on my head consumed a LOT of brain energy)

-- Bike frame geometry and handlebars and everything else moves and flows well with the human body. Brain energy saved!

-- wide tires, less bounding, better ride, brain energy saved!

-- who knows what I'm forgetting?!

Barring externals, I gain brain energy when I ride, and that is huge!

With abandon,

Patrick

[ascpgh]

The right tool for the job, and the humbleness to recognize when such are necessary.

Folks really do take themselves too seriously. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 1:42:01 PM UTC-8, ascpgh wrote:

The right tool for the job, and the humbleness to recognize when such are necessary.

Folks really do take themselves too seriously. 

 

Agree! I love these types of threads! You see all sides. I'm from the camp that if CF bikes, lycra gets people riding, well go for it! I have a buddy who for over 20+ years, we've been trying to get him out and riding with us. For 20+ years, he says naw, all I need is my old  is my old mtb. He hated dt shifters and thought the positioning on a road bike was too painful. 

 

Then about 4 years ago, he wanted a new bike and went into a Specialized dealer. They put him on an aluminum road bike, but one designed for higher bars with a wider seat and BAM, he was hooked! Not only did he buy the bike and wanted to ride, he actually "upgraded" to the carbon model within 2 weeks!! Further, and I'm not done yet, two years later he started talking to us about getting a new bike?! The next thing you know he walks into a Trek dealer and drops $5K+ on a Madone with the latest ultegra di2!  Moreover, and you all will love this, this guy, who was 5'11 190, got so into riding that he DROPPED 30 POUNDS!!!! Yup, all of a sudden, he has the latest clothing (lycra jersey, shorts, the whole 9 yards) and is killing everyone blasting up the hill?!!  Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike got him hooked and we love it!

 

Btw, for all you paleo lovers, you'll hate this guy! While dropping 30lbs, he still eats like a pig and that includes massive amounts of noodles, rice and bread (hey, a guy's got to carbo load!)....

 

In the meantime, I'm just the opposite and can't drop an ounce. Maybe I need to do that paleo thing....Good Luck!

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
> Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my
> buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out
> of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike
> got him hooked and we love it!

Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very
similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002. I know quite a few
people who have them and like them a lot. I think the Zerts inserts are
pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than
a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for
(by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes
people could buy.

[pb]

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 7:06:34 AM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:

When I started cycling in 1990 the landscape in Northern California was roadies in lycra, mountain bikers in lycra, and po' folks like me in street clothes on Goodwill beater bikes. There was no in between.

Hmmmn, that's odd.  I was selling bicycles in San Francisco, I think it was 1989-1991, and I sold a lot of Crossroads hybrids.  A lot of them.  Did I mention, a LOT of them?  That's because I really, really liked them.  Yeah, racer me.  I really liked hybrids, and I thought they made a lot of sense for urban riding for all the obvious reasons.  Of course, I'd been riding flat bar conversion road bikes since the mid-70's.  Most of my customers in 89 thought they just had to have mountain bikes, and I would ask them, so do you really see yourself riding dirt trails?  (No, we just want to ride around town.)  So, I would say, do me a favor and just try this Crossroads ...  just try it.  Just ride it once around the block.  And they would come back smiling, and I would know I had sold another bike, and not infrequently, I would even sell them some fenders.

 

Now there's a whole world of city bikes and country bikes and fixies and cargo bikes and Dutch bikes being ridden in all manner of gear. Not to mention tweed rides. All of this can be traced directly back to Grant's insistence that there was a better way for a large portion of adult cyclists to approach cycling .... Grant Petersen changed cycling.

Gosh, no doubt, definitely, but to be completely fair, there were a few other folks who embraced a variety of ideas as well ...  let's see, Miyata was offering full chaincase upright bikes in the US in the mid-80's (sweet and lively 4130 bikes - I  bought my girlfriend one at The High Wheeler in Boulder in 1984); I bought my Miyata 1000 in 1983, I think, but I'm not sure about that one, it might have been a year or two later... and Specialized and Schwinn were both offering a range of really scooty 700c hybrids in the late 80's; Specialized had the Sequoia in 81, and into production in 82, but maybe that's too sporty to count, although Grant thought it was cool ... let's see, Specialized had Globe urban bikes in the early 90's, didn't they?  Bruce Gordon introduced the Rock and Road in 1988 ....  And I was selling flat bar road bike conversions with B17's to make the upright riding position more comfortable ("town shooters") to my customers in Boulder in 1976 and 1977.  So yeah, lots of folks have had an affinity for a variety of sensible and versatile bicycles.  Gosh, English three speeds from the 30's and 40's and 50's and 60's, and Raleigh Internationals, and the sweet Schwinn New World from the 40's, and French low-trail rando bikes from the 50's, and Indian and Chinese roadsters, and Nishiki's with 27 x 1 1/4" tires in the mid-70's....  Indeed, a whole world of bikes.          

 

[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 6:21:59 AM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:

Guilty as charged.  In fact I am definitely not an adherent to Grant's thoughts on cycling attire.  I'm wearing plum-smuggling cycling shorts every time I ride, unless it's a very, very short ride.

But unlike some folks, I don't feel any pressure to conform to the Unracer philosophy.  It's just more ideas about how to make cycling more enjoyable and accessible to all

 

Agree. When I ride recreationally with the "boys" on the weekend and ride between 40-60 miles, I prefer lyrca and jerseys.  I also like riding my carbon bike as its very comfortable! :) However, I live in SF And when I commute, it is in street clothes. Since the ride is only 10 miles rt, but with hills coming home, its not too bad. Further, while commuting it seems that most people are in street clothes. You occasionally see a rider in a kit, but mainly it seems like most people commute in street clothes.

 

What's funny is one time, while commuting, I saw a friend stopped at a light in her car. She waved at me as I rode pass. Later, I get an email from her specifically commenting on why I wasn't in "spandex" (I later corrected her that the proper term is lycra)? I told her that for long rides, "spandex" works for me. However, for my short commute, street clothes works too and is actually preferable as most people who commute do so in street clothes! 

 

Also, on any given Saturday or Sunday morning at the Golden Gate Bridge, the meeting spot for most groups, you see a wide assortment of lycra!  Almost everyone is in lycra and riding a CF bike!  You do see the what I call Rivendell guys out there too. But they actually kind of stand out dress like "bums" in their baggy shorts, searsucker shirts, etc.  Further, their bikes always look well used with racks and big tires, at least compared to the CF riders.  Still, you can tell they're having fun, just like the CF guys.  OK, maybe the Riv guys seem to have more fun than the CF guys, as the latter are more "serious" and ready to "get down to business!" 

 

We just laugh and go at our own speed! Good Luck!

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

Every day, there are frightful sights in lycra on every bike path

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 2:18:24 AM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:

Every runner knows those Damn walkers are just in the way .... Must be winter.

On Feb 25, 2015 2:50 AM, "'pb' via RBW Owners Bunch" <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 8:18:22 PM UTC-8, Doug Williams wrote:

pb,

Hmmm...I'm glad that you found a few good LBS's,

No, I called three, and got three answers.  I made three calls.  I got three answers.  I chose the three because they were representative of three major corporate entities.

 

but have you read a mainstream bicycle magazine recently? I see all sorts of articles and advertisements glorifying racing and bikes so lightweight that they are completely impractical for normal use. I see VERY few articles and advertisements featuring practical and reliable bikes or articles that espouse using a bike for transportation rather than for only racing or exercise. Transportation? What's that? A fun ride that isn't a race? What's that?

Do you read Vogue to find articles on dungarees or Harris tweed?  Do you read GQ to find out what to wear when gardening?  I don't even know what the "mainstream bicycle magazines" are any more. I do know that Bicycling (does it still exist?) didn't offer a new article, or cover, in twenty years.  They just recycled the old ones on a regular basis (Climb better in 30 days!  Get faster in 30 days!  Prepare for a century in 30 days!  Get leaner in 30 days!).  I hope you don't pay to read it.  Doug, are you confusing magazines with actual journalism?  Magazines exist to make money, and they'll print whatever they think will sell copies.  Apparently what you think is interesting isn't what they think will sell copies.  Does that prove something about your local bicycle shop, or does it just indicate that maybe you're looking at the wrong magazine, which you knew before you picked it up.       

 

I don't think that Grant just invented this issue. The phenomena is quite real. Grant's message resonates with many because the racing phenomena IS real.

No, Grant didn't invent the issue, but he has fed the flames, and kept it alive, and he has perpetuated a stereotype, and he has offended folks along the way.  For no reason.  And I assure you that it has affected his bottom line by marginalizing him.  Canonize him for that if you wish. 

   

 And yes, I do (quite often) encounter smug racers in their spandex uniforms who disparage practical cyclists. They are mostly wannabe's and not real racers, of course. But they are numerous and annoying just the same.

Oh come on.  There are rude and irritating members of every population group.  Do they represent their groups as a whole?  See comments about stereotyping.  Also, people tend to see what they are looking for.  If you are looking for snotty racers, you'll probably find them.  Ironically, typing that reminds me of riding into my neighborhood one night from work.  My commute ride is about 40 quite hilly miles each way, a solid 2.5 hours, especially after a day of work, and I had ridden both ways that day, leaving the house in the morning at 5:30 (no, I do not do that commute both ways very often).  I was on a carbon Look, in lycra, and I had my clothes and shoes and files and a laptop in my Timbuktu.  I was riding very tiredly into my development, done for the day, when a fellow in jeans and a plaid shirt went spinning past me on a Surly.  He was sitting upright, and he ignored me as he spun past with a grin.  I guess he kicked my ass.  If it had been me passing him, I would have said hello, because I try to be friendly to other cyclists.     

Here is my suggestion to you and to Grant:  Promote and enjoy the kind of cycling and bicycles that you like, and let those things stand on their own feet.  If your LBS sucks and just wants to sell $15,000 Pinarellos and one-piece suits, go to another store, or mail order, but don't tell me that proves every LBS sucks, or that every customer of that LBS is an ass.  Don't sneer at other cyclists along the way, or if you do, they may say things like Norma Steinberg said.  There is sufficient rudeness and division in our world.  Don't perpetuate it.

Think about my comment about Ritchey and Fisher and Kelly not needing to belittle roadies to make mountain biking attractive.  The opposite happened -- suddenly it was cool to have two bikes!  Grant's ideas in Just Ride are fine.  Yeah, I've read it -- he sent me a copy, and I have it at my right hand.  It's just not necessary for anyone to prove that his ideas are right by proving that someone else's ideas are wrong.  Sometimes two ideas can be right at the same time, and to make an idea attractive does not require belittling another idea.  You want to go for a run, go for a run.  You want to go for a walk, go for a walk.  Runners and walkers don't need to call each other stupid or liars.    

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

[Joe Bernard]

A. Thanks for the sarcasm. B. There certainly were not a plethora of English 3-speeds running around here 25 years ago, and those hybrids mimicked the same riding position and drivetrains of MTBs. Also, the mid-'90s Globe was a sales failure, as Mike Sinyard addressed some years later when re-introducing the model. He said the market wasn't ready for it back then. I stand by my story: In 1990 the Bay Area was largely composed on lycra-kitted riders on two basic styles of bicycles.

[Patrick Moore]

Brewster Fong <bfd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Btw, for all you paleo lovers, you'll hate this guy! While dropping 30lbs, he still eats like a pig and that includes massive amounts of noodles, rice and bread (hey, a guy's got to carbo load!)...

Kudos to him! I wish I had a 24 oz beer right now with which to drink his health.

 

You do see the what I call Rivendell guys out there too. But they actually kind of stand out dress like "bums" in their baggy shorts, seersucker shirts, etc. 

One of them, or a near relation,  passed me today at about a 50% speed differential, up a hill. Scruffy lout! I was wearing cycling kit, too!

[Goshen Peter]

One way to know your message has really gotten out there is when some people you don't know start to genuinely hate you, hahaha!

--

[Doug Williams]

There are many riders who can NOT conceive of going for a bike ride without their clipless shoes, jersey, the whole kit. How sad! I mean...there isn't anything wrong with wearing your kit to go on a serious bike ride. But for a short ride, you wind up spending more time dressing and undressing than you do riding. Plus, the kit is just stupid for many rides.

Example: I'm a bike safety instructor and I teach bike traffic safety, typically to 5-7 grades. We ask for parent volunteers to tag along at the end of a line of 8-12 students. We make it very clear that we will be riding slowly, stopping often for instruction, etc. You would be amazed at how many volunteers show up in full kit and clipped in. They just can't envision an easy ride in regular clothes, no matter how appropriate for the situation.

Doug

[Mark Reimer]

Haha I laughed out loud when picturing that

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/F-3pQcXcdIw/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Leslie]

One thing I think is a factor in a lot of this, is socioeconomics.   Maybe I'm wrong, or, maybe not where you are, but, at least for my neck of the woods.....  (my neck of the woods being, a non-urban center, small-town, car-centric region where everyone over 15 is expected to have a car or two....)

I see the 'ensemble' of racing/club attire is used as a differentiator, indicating some level of affluence.... that you have a carbon bike, and can afford special clothing reserved for riding your bike, with like-minded people.   It's a sign of buy-in to the club.    If you're not in lycra and spandex, if you're not on a carbon bike, then, you must not be able to afford such, and you are some lower-echelon person that couldn't afford a car, and not someone who one wants to be associated with.    

We here in RBW-Owners-Bunch are aware that that doesn't always hold true... our 'antique' bikes and wool underwear cost more than their Fuji Supremes and Primal jerseys....   But we're a niche within a subset of a smaller group of the biking population.   It really isn't about the price tag for us, we're into what we like for whatever reasons we like it, and it's worth what we'll pay;  and for those on this group that have carbon racers too, well, you are on the Rivendell group, so, you're not entirely anti-Rivendellish, right?   But you at least understand both sides.   But away from our corner of the biking world, there's a lot of people that don't know better....   they see the TdF, they want to get into shape, they 'buy-in' with the outfits and the latest/greatest, because it must be best, right?  

Grant used to race;  he's not anti-racing... if you're gonna race, then go race, on a race bike.    But if you're not racing, you might as well be comfortable and enjoy the ride.....     

[Hugh Smitham]

I pictured the children smacking their foreheads in embarrassment for their parents. Now that image makes me laugh.

~Hugh

[Eric Daume]

I wonder sometimes if the basic image of people getting railroaded into buying a race bike for general riding is still true, if it ever was. Grant compares his bikes to MCFRBs, but a more apt comparison is probably a... hybrid. Big clearances, upright positioning, fenders, racks, etc. And that's mostly what I see people riding when I ride through the local metro park. Yes, the group riders on Saturday morning are all clad in lycra on carbon bikes, but that's just one small group of riders. Yes, those are the bikes they show in Bicycling, but how often can you compare $400 hybrids?

I bet if you compared Trek's or Specialized's sales numbers, they would sell many more hybrid bikes than road machines (though they may sell more dollars of road bikes). The Unracer seems like the normal thing, now.

Eric Daume

Dublin, OH

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 7:57 PM, Jim Bronson <jim.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why?  Why, over and over again?  Because the racing philosophy has the mainstream and the LBS.  And it's not what serves most causal riders best, and I applaud Grant for calling them out for it. 

We all have seen at the LBS the times when some racerish young LBS employee is trying to fit an older person onto a racerish bike, that will not be well served by said bike.  Why is this what's in the mainstream?

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 6:40 PM, 'pb' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:25:08 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

Is that the best rhetoric (argument, in the technical sense) the racing crowd could produce? That rather says it all. Sardonic grin.

Huh?  To what are you referring?  What racing crowd?  Which argument?  Norma Steinberg's comments?  If so, what makes you think she represents "the racing crowd"?  Are you being snarky?  I would not have expected that from you.  "Snarky"?   (Sharply critical; cutting; snide?  Was that really your intention, Deacon?)

I notice that Grant's letter is much more compromising and middle-ground than he has been in the past, and I commend him for that.  "What I tried to do ... is offer an alternative."  "It hurts to be judged."  Well, perhaps there would be less judgment from others if there had been less judgment from him along the way (see Norma's last paragraph again).  In the past, his language has been rather less soft than in his recent letter, for instance, "it's a big fat lie."  I don't know about you, but I find that phrase off-putting.  Well, that was a long time ago, so I'm not going to dwell.  I'm just mentioning that as a contrast. 

I've said these things before, but here it is again.  I'm a big tent cyclist.  I was a licensed road racer for almost twenty years, and I've ridden with lots of folks whose names are well known.  I love old English three-speeds.  I really miss the Schwinn New World I used to bomb around the University of Colorado campus on.  I've done a good bit of loaded touring and will again.  I have owned lots of steel, lots of carbon, and lots of titanium, and I enjoy my Rambouillet as much as I enjoy my Hampsten ti custom and my Merlin Agilis, although I'm currently really smitten by my ti Serotta - Schwinn Paramount.  I read the Reader for a number of years, until I stopped, because in each edition, I found some comment from Grant which was openly, unmistakably insulting to "the racing crowd".  Why?  Why, over and over again?  Why not just do what he does well, no apology, and let it speak for itself?  It suddenly occurs to me that Ritchey and Fisher and Charlie Kelly didn't need to talk about how stupid road riding was when they started mountain biking, and they managed to create a movement that took over the world.  They didn't need buttons that said "unroadie".  They were too busy building and riding and enjoying bikes to be snarky.  It's not necessary to say the other guy is stupid to look good.  It's much better to just do the do.  

I've expressed this to Grant, and he has heard it, and he has said all the right things to me, and thank you very much, Grant, you and I are good.  I like Grant, and I do appreciate his intentions, but I think that he doesn't always communicate effectively, and I understand why sometimes other folks' hackles get up.  You know how humor doesn't always read well on the internet?  Kind'a like that.  So, let me encourage the Riv listers not to take up the sword, when Grant may have put it down.  A self-congratulatory sense of superiority is not charming.         

And now I'm going to go pull on a pair of lycra shorts, and a cotton polo shirt, and go for a dirt road ride on my Rambouillet.

Peter Bridge

San Diego

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

--

[dan gee]

I can't remember who first stated it in this epic thread, but I'll agree that Grant's response was a little disingenuous-- Just Ride is definitely not a kumbaya, just-do-your-own-thing get along gang book. It says in many places that people who use clipless shoes, or wear lycra, or are more interested in riding fast than riding fun, are misguided and have been conned by the industry. It's a contrarian take on something that many people are passionate about and have their identities tied up in, so it shouldn't be surprising that some get their buttons pushed about this type of stuff. Regardless, you can't pretend that Grant isn't pushing the buttons of the roadie world, and I wish he'd just own it. I don't agree with all of (or these days, many of) the RBW ideals, but I feel much more interested in something that gleefully challenges the cycling status quo than something that backpedals whenever someone gets upset. You can't be Copernicus without getting the Pope angry at you, you know?

-Dan, DC

[dougP]

That was my feeling.  She seemed to be reading too much into Just Ride and projecting her own interpretation.  I read the letter & scratched my head, not understanding why she seemed so put out. 

dougP

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:45:57 PM UTC-8, Chris in Redding, Ca. wrote:

Hey All,

I think the critic of 'Just Ride' misses the point of 'Just Ride'. The error is hers. 

Chris

Redding, Ca.

[Mike Schiller]

this ^^ is the first thing that makes sense in this whole thread.  

There are all kinds of fish in this giant fishbowl. Some wear sandals and baggy shorts...that's not me.  Lycra/wool shorts have a place for performance riding,  On tour, some loose fitting over-shorts are more appropriate.    Can't we all get just along?  

~mike

Carlsbad Ca

[Don Compton]

I own a Mini Cooper and see a similar thing in the group. As new , the cars handle so well. But owners look at racecars that are very low and think that you have to have that look and the change will surely improve the handling. Well, maybe not, ( probably not). Oh well

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 1:08:44 PM UTC-8, Jon in the foothills of Central Colorado wrote:

In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag

PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER

LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’

Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,

and diets have become the norm and

normal, and are so pervasive that many

adult cyclists, maybe even some you

know, accept the racing standards as

the only legitimate way to be a serious

adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the

book Just Ride — and what we do here

at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer

an alternative, a model to other adult

cyclists that there is another way. This

letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply

saying where I come from and what I

do.

We are the mice trying to squeak

above the roar at the base of the

waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,

but I try hard to not offend.

Inevitably, a declarative position on

any matter is bound to raise a few

hackles with those who have a different

position, but it still hurts to be judged

by a stranger who would probably like

me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.

A good number of our customers are

middle-aged and older folks trying to

fit in some activity as they age. They

often have the means, and they’re

influenced by what they read and see

that promotes racers as a good model —

and that’s something I don’t agree with.

They shop as innocents and come

out of it dressed like racers and riding

bikes that are not only inappropriate

for the kind of riding they do, but are,

on top of that and more egregiously, not

comfortable. We undo that. You may

see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t

feel either of those. I see racing and

racers as fringe and am simply trying

to legitimize an alternative point of

view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m

trying — certainly not singlehandedly —

to make people feel good about riding

without dressing in pro-team gear and

copying so many other affectations of

the racer, and that is what Unracing and

Just Ride and Rivendell Bicycle Works is

all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some

of my best friends pedal cliplessly and

in spandex. It’s cool.

Grant Petersen

Walnut Creek, California

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

Grant is a marketeer and an interesting person.  To some extent, he is trying to get people to drink his Kool-Aid because that's his market space.  I well recall when he was selling an older Campy front derailer.  It had an oversized clamp, so he sold it with a plastic sleeve that you used over the seat tube to correctly fit it.  It was "the best thing ever," and I've seen him do that repeatedly with old stock items.  So to some extent, yeah, he's just trying to move stock.  Come on--the man sells luxury-class bicycles to people with money who (and I count myself in the 'who' even though I don't own a Riv) like to pretend that they're saving the planet or bohemian or randonneurs or...  Look.  We're exactly like a sports car club.  The difference in utility for most of us between a Riv frame and a '70s UJB or '80s Trek is de minimis.  Check my blog post here for further thought:  https://lawschoolissoover.wordpress.com/2014/09/06/marginalia/

At the same time, Grant has some clear philosophical convictions (some of which I like, many of which I disagree with, but that's between him and me) about the way things should be done.  And that's OK, too.  In fact, that's great.  That's how we learn.  Thesis, antithesis, synthesis, remember?

But sometimes they bleed together and Grant sounds like a BS artist.  His talk about "plastic" racing wear, for example.  Modern cycling jerseys are, IME, very comfortable.  Wool is nice, too.  But he uses terms that denigrate others to get his point across, and that's where the trouble comes in.

He should come to New Haven, where lots of people wear lots of different things to ride in, and some of us switch it around.  I love riding in street clothes, and I love riding in "plastic."  Not because I race (I commute and group ride all on the same dynohub-equipped bike).  I ride in what's suited to the circumstances.  When it's 95 and muggy, I wear plastic and Lycra and carry street clothes in panniers.  Etc.  Grant's language implies that he would consider my choice to rid exclusively in SPDs to be foolish and racer-y.  In fact, I find clipless more comfortable and it's far easier to find size 13B bike shoes/sandals that 13B street shoes.  Etc.

He does sound dictatorial from time to time. 

So do other people.

And that's when I take a leaf from the past and say "Fsck 'em if they don't have a sense of humor."  And go ride my bike.  The way I want to ride it that day.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/26/2015 04:10 AM, Andrew Marchant-Shapiro wrote:

Grant is a marketeer and an interesting person.  To some extent, he is trying to get people to drink his Kool-Aid because that's his market space.  I well recall when he was selling an older Campy front derailer.  It had an oversized clamp, so he sold it with a plastic sleeve that you used over the seat tube to correctly fit it.  It was "the best thing ever," and I've seen him do that repeatedly with old stock items.  So to some extent, yeah, he's just trying to move stock. 

I don't recall this one, but if it was the Racing T front derailleur then Hell yes, it was the best thing ever for 110/74 "compact triples" and the fact that you needed a shim to get it to fit the seat tube is just the price of doing business.  I still marvel at this: why on earth would Campagnolo, a company with a proven track record of no interest or expertise with touring gearing produce what is by far the best front derailleur for such gearing I've ever seen?  So, if it was that one, it wasn't "just trying to move stock" at all.

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

No, it was just a low-grade double, IIRC.  This would have been some time around '97.

[Patrick Moore]

 Modern cycling jerseys are, IME, very comfortable.ˆ

Andy: first, not at all a snark attack. 

I am desperately seeking hot weather jerseys that don't stink after 15 minutes of riding. Wool is no good for me in temperatures much over 70F. No one I know of makes cotton knit jerseys. Can you recommend a ss lightweight jersey, cost no object, that is relatively odorless?

Thanks.

[Steve Palincsar]

All I can say is, my lycra jerseys do not stink -- not after 15 min, and pretty much not after a whole day of riding.  And I do not have to tell you what metro DC summer conditions are like.

[islaysteve]

I'm another Steve in the DC Metro area and my experience from when I was riding regularly in the summer was similar to Steve P's. The shorts were ride once and wash, for anti fungal reasons, but jerseys did not necessarily need to be washed every time. I used mostly Pearl Isumi jerseys, in addition to some others. Full disclosure, I use antibacterial soap for showering but do not use an antiperspirant (allergic to that). To tie in with current topic, my clothing for longer rides will not/has not changed much since I got my Bleriot and started reading GP's writings, other than to tone down the colors a bit. I have taken his advise re shoes, and find the Thin Gripsters to be quite adequate with rubber-soled casual shoes. I still prefer cycling shorts since anything baggy tends to snag on the saddle horn when remounting after a stop.
Steve A

[Andrew Marchant-Shapiro]

Patrick:

The two Steves speak the truth.  I generally get free jerseys from charity rides or pick some up from Long's when they're on sale.  I've had some smell a little after a century in humid Wisconsin summer weather, but not badly.

It may be that some of us generate more toxic sweat than others--but personally, I don't.  Sheep or plastic, they all seem to smell the same when I'm done.  Lycra shorts I wash after a long ride (I don't wear them for short rides) just as I would anything else I had used in those conditions.

(I know Bill Cosby is a persona non grata  these days, but I can't help but think of his remarks about his mother always insisting that he wear clean underwear, and imagining her reaction when a police officer tells her he's been in an accident:  "Did he have clean underwear?" "Yes.  We found it in the glove compartment.")

[Marc Irwin]

This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said, " I can take this to the grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the Himalayas.  What can you do with that?" (pointing to his crabon crotch rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.

Marc

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite <addison...@gmail.com> wrote:

I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the niche.  Just like the "extreme" downhillers or whatever they are called.  I just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also accept the benefits of a fatter tire  

Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys with sublimated graphics.

There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is wrong and she needs a different one.

--

-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Kieran J]

Late to this thread - interesting and well-articulated perspectives all around, as per RBWOB usual.

For me, the crux of the issue is that people should find a system that works for them, go with it, and own it. For me, that extends throughout life and is an intrinsic part of living in a tolerant and diverse society. The drama and judgement only reinforces tunnel vision and defensiveness. 

And I don't mean to let Grant et al. off the hook; there is a bit of swagger from that camp as well, as others have mentioned. However I think RBW's relaxed vibe, practical approach and earnest business model is worth a lot in today's world.

I'm all bemused eyerolls when I encounter people that are so up in arms with what others are doing. Get over yourself and go have fun!

KJ

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks. Oh well. My 2 Pearl Izumi summer jerseys stink as quickly as the others. Wool, OTOH, can go for 8 hours of riding without offending the nearby public (I sweat in winter, too). And yes, I do bathe daily -- my cotton shirts can go at least 2 full day wearings without being offensive.

Moving on: if anyone has recommendations for cycling-cut summer jerseys -- particularly, trim fit and rear pockets -- that don't stink even for the smelly bodied, I'd like to hear them.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.

By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.

Other professional writing services.

http://www.resumespecialties.com/

www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

*************************************

The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. Aristotle

The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. Dante  

[Daniel D.]

Things are nicer when people are advocates for what they like rather than opponents of what they dislike.   No need to come across as "mean or judgmental"( Grant's own words in the intro to Just Ride") we're just talking about bikes...

[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
> Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my
> buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out
> of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike
> got him hooked and we love it!

Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very
similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few
people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are
pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than
a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for
(by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes
people could buy.

Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and Giant to name a few - now offer more "upright" riding position for all their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit. That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.  BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be available in any position that you want!

 

I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous "raise dat stem" article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can only do something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!) and carbon bashing, we might have something....Good Luck!

[Bill Lindsay]

I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful and I love riding it.  

My Bomba

Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says "whatever gets you riding!", but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean it.  If you love your bike, that's awesome!  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Mark Reimer]

The only thing I dislike about my Atlantis is that it doesn't have a double top tube. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/F-3pQcXcdIw/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Aaaaannnd we have reached the dead of winter!

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ****************************************************

This email (and any attachments thereto) is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (and any attachments thereto) is strictly prohibited. If you receive this email in error please immediately notify me at (212) 735-3000 and permanently delete the original email (and any copy of any email) and any printout thereof.

Further information about the firm, a list of the Partners and their professional qualifications will be provided upon request.
****************************************************
==============================================================================

[Brewster Fong]

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 11:13:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful and I love riding it.  

My Bomba

Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says "whatever gets you riding!", but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean it.  If you love your bike,

 

You're right Bill. I should have clarified, I wasn't talking about the looks of double top tubes, but the *need* for it, especially on a 56cm bike?  Maybe you can tell us how wonderful it rides compared to a single top tube. Personally, I never ridden a bike with two tts, but think it would stiffen the bike. Wrong?  Hey, since my foot is in my mouth, maybe the double tt helps the bike "plane!"  Further, the double tt is not limited to Rivendell, there's a guy at my work who rides a Sycip with 2 tt:

 

http://sycip.com/project/cruiser-town-bikes/

 

Btw, I have a 18 year old carbon bike that many people find ugly! It's a Calfee with the gussets (webbing). There are many, many people out there who think its one of the ugliest bikes made. I agree, its not the prettiest, but man, it is so comfortable to ride!  Oh yeah, and very durable too!

 

Nevertheless, I still think its wrong for Grant to insult carbon. Hey, he makes a good product and should be proclaiming the virtues about steel and his bikes. After all, doesn't he have like a 3 year wait list for one of his customs? 

 

So go enjoy your bike! Since it doesn't rain here any more, that means more time to ride! Good Luck!

[Jim Bronson]

Craig Calfee is one of the few guys I'd trust to sell me a crabon fiber bike appropriate for my weight and intended usage.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Bill Lindsay]

Brewster

My Bombadil is quite stiff.  Bikes that "plane" are really flexible.  My Bombadil does not plane.  My Rawland Stag with 7/4/7 standard diameter top tube and downtube does plane.  My Bombadil is very stout.  I use it for camping and trail riding.  At times, I am carrying most of the gear for a family of four.  When my bike weighs over 90lbs, the extra few ounces of the second top tube does not bother me.  Of my 10 bikes, my Bombadil is definitely the most stout.  My Ibis Tandem is also very stiff, with radically oversized steel tubing, in addition to a long additional diagonal tube between the top tube and downtube.

For what it's worth, I share your opinion that a 59cm Soma San Marcos, which is supposed to be a sporty road bike, maybe doesn't need a second top tube.  But in general, when a bike doesn't appeal to me, I just don't buy it, and leave it at that.  Maybe somebody else does love it and wants to buy it, and if that gets them riding, why not!

For what it's worth 2, I'm kind of glad my 56cm Sam Hillborne doesn't have a second top tube, because in my application I don't need it.  That bike is currently built up quite light, and I just put a pair of 700x38 extralight Barlow Pass tires on it.  That bike should really sing on the road now!  I'm excited.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/26/2015 03:10 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> Brewster
>
> My Bombadil is quite stiff. Bikes that "plane" are really flexible.
> My Bombadil does not plane. My Rawland Stag with 7/4/7 standard
> diameter top tube and downtube does plane. My Bombadil is very stout.
> I use it for camping and trail riding. At times, I am carrying most
> of the gear for a family of four. When my bike weighs over 90lbs, the
> extra few ounces of the second top tube does not bother me.

When your bike weighs 90 pounds, a 2nd top tube may actually be doing
you some good! I'm happy to have a diagonal tube on a tandem, too.
Jan notwithstanding, I had a French tandem once with twin external
laterals. They were decorative and made a nice place to cradle a water
bottle, but provided no lateral stiffness whatsoever.

[Bill Lindsay]

the second top tube is also a terriffic handle for portaging it up the stairs to BART

[Geir Bentzen]

I believe I have read/skimmed all the comments by now and as a European who has emigrated to the U.S. what strikes me as odd is the feeling I get that riding a bike is something special. Something you need a club for, extra things to buy, something a bit exotic. I believe the core of what Grant says is that it is not something special. It as normal as driving or walking down the street or taking the bus, and in fact those things can often be combined. My impression is that he promotes using the bike as your get around daily tool as much as you can, and that may mean to wear whatever suits the combination of your tasks, not only your bike riding. This is how I experienced life in Europe. But, if you go out for a ride that has no other tasks to it than just riding then I believe you should feel free to dress for the physical exercise involved. In my own case that means bike shorts made of lycra and other more or less bike specific attire as needed for the weather. I just don't see the conflict here. I have several bikes, but I notice that the one I grab all the time is my Hunqapillar, even though I own an excellent German city bike for going to the grocery store. So the Hunq does it all, but I may not wear the same clothes all the time. When younger I would often wear running shoes while walking around town in jeans, but I would never go for a long run wearing those jeans even though I still wore the same shoes. Why not adopt the same practical and non-ideological attitude?

[Patrick Moore]

The best comment on the subject yet ....

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

[ascpgh]

It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.

Andy Cheatham 

Pittsburgh

[Mark Reimer]

Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...

http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/F-3pQcXcdIw/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Hugh Smitham]

Well that should sell a bunch of stretchy light weight bikey stuff! I had to stop half way through the video to catch my breath ;) Fun to watch.

[Goshen Peter]

Bill, I always thought it would have been great to get my silca painted to match the bombadil so from a feet away.... TRIPLE TUBED!

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Deacon Patrick]

That snow looks to be about 28˚F or warmer. That's only minus whatever in C. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Mark Reimer]

Oh, I know they're babies. That video didn't fool me. 

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

You mean like this?  https://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/8566366471/in/set-72157624552118742

 

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Goshen Peter
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 6:11 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

 

Bill, I always thought it would have been great to get my silca painted to match the bombadil so from a feet away.... TRIPLE TUBED!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ****************************************************

[Bill Lindsay]

Tire labels not lined up with the valve stems!??!??

DISAPPROVE

[Goshen Peter]

Bazinga!

[Mike Schiller]

now that looks like a hella lota fun.  Although I'd probably get the new Salsa Warbird... carbon bike that fits 45mm tires.  Seems like most of  my fun rides these days are like that ( a bit slower and drier though) and there should be beer at the  end too!

~mike

Carlsbad Ca.

[Tim]

How about the Ibex wool jersey, Patrick? They are very, very light, ss and rear pockets. I've yet to have a knit jersey that I could wear two rides in a row. I sweat like crazy and my wool stuff doesn't smell.

[Doug Williams]

Perfect Geir!

 

Just wear whatever works for the ride you will be doing. Exercise clothes or racing kit are fine if that is what you are doing. Nothing wrong with bike clothes for a long and/or hard ride. But bike shoes and jerseys in the grocery store are just…well…whatever. Again, I maintain that MANY bicyclists simply can’t imagine going on a “regular ride” in “regular clothes”. They miss out on many good rides because they simply can’t ride without their racing kit. In the time spent getting dressed, I could have already been at the grocery store. The result is that the “racing kit crowd” never ride on short errand rides, because it is just too much trouble to get into their uniform.

 

 

Doug

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/F-3pQcXcdIw/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.