An even fatter (F)atlantis!

[Mark Reimer]

My curiosity was getting the better of me and I had to find out if I could squish even fatter knobbies into my Atlantis. I picked up a pair of Schwalbe Thunder Burt's in 2.25" and the fit with room to spare! I think I could actually get 2.3 or 2.35s in there! 

I also took the opportunity to change up a few other things - I have a 100cm Nitto Dirt Drop stem matched to some Soma Portola dirt drop bars, with some drillium-style NOS Shimano levers. I went out for 7 hours on Saturday and love the bars! I could have used some light gloves (and sunscreen for that matter), but overall I'm loving the setup. Riding in the drops is fantastic on single track and descending. The hoods are comfortable enough for long distance. I might raise the bars a smidge still, but we'll see.

The brakes received an update after the old Avid Tri-Align's kept slipping. I'm using Paul Touring canti's, and they live up to their great reputation. They just work so well.

Replaced the BB with a Phil Wood unit plus mud guards, as well as the road version of White Industries' cranks, which brought my Q down by a centimeter. Using this BB and crank, I think I could actually have got with a 116mm instead of 119mm. When it comes time to replace (in like...10 years), I'll shorten it.

I also picked up a Sugino inner ring from Riv on their sale page. I've now got a 44/26 setup with an 11x36 cassette. I replaced my Ultegra front derailleur with an old Suntour Cyclone derailleur, which actually works much better than the Ultegra. The cage is also wider, meaning I don't need to trim as often.

And last but not least, added a Velo Orange Mojave cage under the down tube with a 40oz Klean Kanteen bottle. Thirsty? Not anymore! This is the setup I'll be using for my 10-day tour in Oregon next month. Oh, and I also added a Mark's Rack to the back after the Bagman rack cracked.

There you have it! The Fatlantis is even fatter, can climb higher, stop faster, shift better, spin smoother, support more weight, it's perfect!

More on my Flickr page!

[Chris Lampe 2]

I love it!!!  

I've been trying to convince myself that the 32mm Vittoria Hypers I'm running right now are fat enough because they are such nice tires.  Yesterday, I built up my early 90's Rockhopper with my 55mm Big Apples and that's all she wrote for me.  I'll never buy another bike that doesn't at least have easy clearance for 55's.   

Now I can't wait for Compass' Rat Trap tires to arrive!

[WETH]

That is a fabulous looking Atlantis. Thanks for sharing the detailed photos, too.

[Pondero]

Mark, your Atlantis remains an inspiration.  Obviously, you are pleased with the current set-up, but I'm interested in your experiences with loading.  So far, I've been using a rear bias for my Atlantis loading, but you seem to be doing well with three bags on the front end.  Have you experimented and determined this to be optimal for you?

Chris Johnson

Sanger, Texas

[Bill Lindsay]

That looks so right.  

[sean]

Mark,

you and Pondero have got to have the best looking Atlantai I've ever seen. The build definitely makes that frameset (which is already impressive) even more impressive and versatile. Wish I had to coin to add an Atlantis to the stable. My LHT seems a bit of a journeyman in comparison.

Beautiful rig.

Sean

ATX

[Mark Reimer]

Thanks Sean! Funny you say that, I always look at his Atlantis with admiration, and supposedly he does the same. He has great taste, if I may say so...

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[Montclair BobbyB]

NICE SETUP!!!  Begs to be ridden!!!

[Deacon Patrick]

Awesome fatties on that beastie!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Dave C]

What size is that Atlantis? Did you get it a smaller size with the intention using it with fat tires? Do you have any issues with tighter trails and toe/wheel contact?

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 9:11:27 PM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:

[Mark Wilkins]

I believe that's a 58. What's the standover with those tires, Mark?

Sent from my iPhone

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[Mark Reimer]

It is a 58cm. I bought the size based on the top-tube length. The stand-over and PBH were all secondary. When I went to the Riv HQ in summer I tried riding a 61 and even a 63 Atlantis. They both 'fit' according to Riv standards but I'm still happy with my decision to stick with a 58, which is what I usually ride. 

In my opinion, if I ride a 58 with say, 10cm of seat post, it feels identical to a 61cm with 7cm of seat post (I don't know if that actually the exact difference, just making a point). However, riding a 100cm stem feels very different than an 80 or 60cm stem. I like stems in the 100-120 range, so the 58 was perfect. Having a touch more stand-over clearance was a nice thing too since I ride a lot in the winter, meaning fatter tires and more wild, washing-out kinda rides. I like having a little room to move. 

I'm not sure what the stand-over with this is, but I'm happy to measure it when I get home!

toe-overlap is a constant reality with this bike. It's the 'worst' with fenders, and I've crashed once as a result. But I'm used to overlap - I only have one bike that doesn't have overlap (my Giant CX bike). I'm fine riding tight trails, it just means riding accordingly. Thankfully I don't have much elevation here which makes tight corners easier when you can just carry your speed coasting around, rather than having to pedal through an uphill corner, for example. That would make the toe-overlap a much bigger problem. 

[Mark Reimer]

Chris, I forgot to address your question. I'm 100% for front-loading. Having a load in the rear is fine, but not on it's own in my experience. I find the bike very difficult to handle. Even when walking, if my saddle bag is heavily loaded the bike wants to fall over. Because it's so far from my handlebars, the bike acts almost like a lever, amplifying the bike's desire to pull away. 

When the weight is on the bars, it's right there, directly connected to the part of the bike I'm holding on to. I've ridden with 50 pounds in my Wald basket in the winter, felt fine. I've done some short tours with panniers stuffed to the gills and my basket or bar bag full, still felt easy to control. It steers a bit slower, but that's it. 

Having weight in the rear isn't much of an issue at all when I've got weight in the front too (like in the pictures here). it only feels awful to me when it's only in the rear. I should note that I've never tried riding with rear panniers only, it's always just been a rear saddle bag. 

All that weight does highlight the flex inherit in quill stems and 1" forks, but it doesn't bother me. 

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[Dave C]

That's interesting. I have had the Nitto small front rack in the front for years, mainly to hold my light. I was wondering how a bag on top of the rack would contribute to wheel flop. On ascents, I definitely need to make small corrections (due to the high trail, I imagine).

If I had a bag sitting on the front rack, not hanging on the bars, I gather that the bag would have less effect on steering than a heavy bag on the bars.

[Mark Reimer]

What do you mean by corrections? Do you mean having weight on the rack makes it difficult to maintain the line you've chosen? As in, the weight actively changes the course your bike is on and requires further input to keep it 'on course'? 

[Pondero]

Thanks, Mark, I have a fairly casual (non-aggressive) riding style and my rear load on my 56 seems almost invisible. A front load on my 650b Hilsen adds a noticeable wheel flop, probably due to the rather slack head angle. I'm thinking it would work better on the steeper Atlantis and will try it out soon.

Chris Johnson
Sanger, Texas

[Dave C]

Well, to be clear I don't have any weight on the rack right now. What I am referring to is the tendency of some bikes on ascents to have the wheel wander rather than maintain a straight line. One then makes minute steering corrections to counter this. While I have zero experiences with bikes with low trail front end geometry, I have read people stating that one advantage of such frames is that they require less effort to remain straight while climbing (especially while tired). Given that I live in the mountains, every ride involves multiple climbs and I have been thinking about it lately.
This article calls it weaving as a result of high wheel flop.
http://www.adventurecycling.org/default/assets/resources/20140601_MechanicalAdvantageTrail_Heine.pdf

So I was wondering if the weight when placed on the small front rack would affect this tendency or be unnoticed.

[Mark Reimer]

Ahh, well...hah... I live in a province where there is maybe... a 20 foot elevation change over 100km. So... I have absolutely no clue. I'll find out in a couple weeks when I could to ride across Oregon :)

[Dave C]

Ha. My street includes a 20 foot elevation change just over one block, and there is a 20+ foot steep hill right across from me in the forest. It's amazing how our geography changes our biking experiences.

[Deacon Patrick]

Dave, With my Hunqapillar I only notice the tendency you describe with a combination of factors:

-- extremely steep climbing (as in on the edge of having to LCG it).

-- Heavyish camping load on the rear (50+ pounds, which I rarely carry camping anymore), nothing on the front.

-- Wide, swept back bars magnify this tendency, in particular Albatross (and I presume Bosco would as well)

For me the fix was simple:

-- mini rack in front with trunk sack to hold food. It will be obvious when there is too much in there (which takes a bit of doing -- a large TrunkSack overstuffed with dense food for a four days for two people.

-- Shift to Albastache bars (which I did for other reasons, but this is a wonderful benefit as well), and or, climb in a narrower, farther forward hand position.

I find Mark's preference for front weight intriguing. I haven't tried front panniers, but I don't like my steering getting messed with (I'm likely ultra sensitive here due to my vertigo). I've settled on carrying my gear in Sackville Panniers, with bag, tent, and pad strapped on top. This keeps weight in the rear lower than with a large SaddleSack, which would get a bit floppy.

In short, I wouldn't worry about it until you experience an issue. If you do, the "fix" is pretty simple.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 9:18:27 PM UTC-6, Dave C wrote:

What I am referring to is the tendency of some bikes on ascents to have the wheel wander rather than maintain a straight line. One then makes minute steering corrections to counter this. 

[Patrick Moore]

I'd like to hear more about this too -- that is, to be clear, about the tendency of bikes to wander badly when climbing. I found the Sam Hillborne in particular to be very liable to this with a rear load, even compared to the 4 other Rivs I've owned. I'm very surprised at the number of Rivendell models pictured with huge baskets on the front. Does the front weight actually help the wandering? If I had put weight on the Sam Hill in front low riders, would things have been better? (I thought of doing this only after I sold the bike.)

I've carried up to ~5 lb on my errand custom on a TA rack in front, and handling has been OK but I could feel it trying to take control of the front end. But that weight sat above the front fender.

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 9:18 PM, Dave C <david.char...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, to be clear I don't have any weight on the rack right now. What I am referring to is the tendency of some bikes on ascents to have the wheel wander rather than maintain a straight line. One then makes minute steering corrections to counter this. While I have zero experiences with bikes with low trail front end geometry, I have read people stating that one advantage of such frames is that they require less effort to remain straight while climbing (especially while tired). Given that I live in the mountains, every ride involves multiple climbs and I have been thinking about it lately.
This article calls it weaving as a result of high wheel flop.
http://www.adventurecycling.org/default/assets/resources/20140601_MechanicalAdvantageTrail_Heine.pdf

So I was wondering if the weight when placed on the small front rack would affect this tendency or be unnoticed.

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[hugh flynn]

My experience on this front is limited to touring on a Surly LHT which mimics the Atlantis geometry in many regards. The Atlantis is said to have been the inspiration for the LHT, so I don't think my observations will be too off topic.

That having been said - while I realize that all Riv (and Riv inspiredgeometries), can be described as "rear biased," I find that my LHT does quite well with front loads only - even on steep climbs. I tend to load my front panniers first and put the lighter stuff like sleep pad and sleeping bag) on the back. There's definately a balance that needs to be struck with full loads, but I do my s240's with a front loaded bias and have encountered very little front end instability when doing so. 

Give it a try!

Hugh Flynn

Newburyport, MA

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[Kainalu]

I have a 64 Hillborne I tried loading above the front wheel and didn't like the flop that I fought. I carry 1 or 2 Ortlieb roll tops that hold most everything I could need on an outing. However, last summer I moved my kid from a stem mounted Yepp seat to a rear mounted seat, that necessitated reconsideration of front loads. I mounted a tubus low rider up front and adjusted the bags as far back as they'd go and it's been great. I don't load the front like I would the rear, but I've had a gallon of milk with with a few tubs of butter and yogurt without issue. No no-handing, but it's a relaxed roll.
-Kai

[Mark Reimer]

I can definitely ride no-handed with this setup. Both panniers full, and a full handlebar bag or basket. I get some front-end shimmy without the panniers, which is actually a pretty new problem for me. I found that my headset was a bit loose yesterday though, so that might have been the cause. Haven't tried riding since I snugged it up. I can ride no-handed with no panniers and a medium to light load in the basket, but it isn't as easy. Never tried doing it uphill no-handed, hah!

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Kainalu <kaivi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a 64 Hillborne I tried loading above the front wheel and didn't like the flop that I fought. I carry 1 or 2 Ortlieb roll tops that hold most everything I could need on an outing. However, last summer I moved my kid from a stem mounted Yepp seat to a rear mounted seat, that necessitated reconsideration of front loads. I mounted a tubus low rider up front and adjusted the bags as far back as they'd go and it's been great. I don't load the front like I would the rear, but I've had a gallon of milk with with a few tubs of butter and yogurt without issue. No no-handing, but it's a relaxed roll.
-Kai

[hsmitham]

Mark,

looks fantastic! Got me thinking about some future changes on my 'lantis. Love the White Industries cranks & the TB's.

RBW lister Mike Shiller recommended the Tange needle bearing head set to reduce front end shimmy. Installed it and the shimmy has been greatly reduced though not completely. Still haven't ridden it with a large front load so that'll be the real test this coming weekend.

~Hugh
Los Angeles, CA

[Mike Schiller]

Glad it helped and where are you going this weekend?  Curtis's s24o?

~mike 

Carlsbad Ca

[Hugh Smitham]

Hi Mike,

Yes thanks! Atlantis much more stable.

And yes meeting Curtis for the O'Neill S240. Wish you could make it, as we'll be going over possible routes from PDX our Summer hub while eating burritos & sipping cervezas.

Possibilities:

South down Oregon coast to Klamath Amtrak back to PDX.

Hood River South through the Cascades (based on your PCT bike trail) to Klamath Amtrak back to PDX.

OOB route.

And then rest up in PDX a couple a days then head out on another route.

~Hugh

[Anne Paulson]

I find that my Atlantii handle beautifully with a front and rear
touring load with more weight on the back. In fact, they handle
beautifully under almost any load. But I have noticed the front wheel
wander with my Krampus, when I'm climbing hills that are close to my
limit, when the bike is unloaded. The problem gets considerably less
bad if I move the saddle forward and if I lean forward when climbing.
It's annoying, though, because none of my Rivendells ever exhibit the
problem.

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-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, that's useful because I am thinking (just thinking) of getting custom lowriders for the green Curt Riv, which now serves as my grocery bike and which doesn't handle heavy and exclusively rear loads with the aplomb of the recently sold Ram.

I hope to have various brazing done on the Curt, which already has a custom rear rack; so unobtrusive front low riders that can carry up to 10 lb a side might to supplement the rear panniers might help maintain the volume but improve the ride. We'll see.

I expect that the Sam Hill I owned, which wandered horribly with just rear loads on steep hills while seated and twiddling, might have done much better with some of that weight put up front -- in fact, I had low rider front bosses retrofitted to the SH's fork but never really tested the bike with a front load. Oh well, live and learn.

[nathaniel nichols]

my Front loaded 56cm Fatlantis. It handles pretty well all packed up front, I was letting my partner use the rear rack for her xo1 since we only have one. But yeah going up hills i guess you can say it wanders a tad but not too crazy, and we climbed a lot these days to and from big sur from SF, it didn't seem to wear me out anymore than just the ride . On the way down to LA with drops I remember it being not as much but of course I had a lil bit of weight on the rear at that time. This was before I had both of my low trail bikes, but even then, I haven't loaded those up with a load at all so yeah, nothing really to compare it to ( Rawland 700c Nordavinden, Boulder all road 650b on the way)

I've since took off the racks and put 2.1 knobby Bronson's on. It's and awesome trade.

I'm still on the verge of selling cuz I would like my dedicated trail to have a tad more standover room but every time I get on the damn bike I cringe at the existence without it...

[Mark Reimer]

You have TWO XO-1's!??!?

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[John]

Nate,
    Love the leopard fleece blanket.  Riv'ers know how to travel in style!

Don't sell that Atlantis, you'll regret it. Or sell it to a friend who will sell it back to you once you've come to your senses.

John

[Andy.M]

Bike looks great!  But if I may make just one suggestion, put some kind of extra strap around your third water bottle... I lost a nice bottle and a decent cage once not knowing to do so.
I used a short irish strap like this https://www.flickr.com/photos/wwqandy/4888270842/

-Andy

[Mark Reimer]

How did you loose the cage?? The bottle is kept so tight in the cage I've got to really yank it to get it out, so I don't think strips are needed for that reason. Did your cage screws back out and the whole thing fell off? 

[nathaniel nichols]

Oh! no we only have one XO-1, the other in the picture belonged to a guy from Bicycling magazine, he was doing a story on a local race organizer and we happened to meet him at one of the events.