Riv horse-trading on a Riv-centric site

[Joe Bernard]

Branching off comments in another thread - and no doubt generating much unpopularity, but I'm a liberal who chats regularly with conservatives on politics sites, so I'm ok with it - this topic has been an edgy one for me for quite some time. There's much buying/selling that goes on here for Riv and Riv-ish things - I do it, too - which is fine: If you have a bag or stem lying around you're not using, might as well sell it, right? Right, but when it comes to actively searching around for "a deal" on things Rivendell sells, I get a little queasy about this being done on a Riv Forum as opposed to Ebay or Craigslist.

 

What concerns me is that we've developed a secondary market amongst each other for things we can buy new from RBW, and if that market continues to flourish at the expense of the folks who originally provided the products, we're eventually going to find ourselves wondering what happened to those nice folks in Walnut Creek. Of course I'm not saying we have to stop selling things we don't need anymore, but I think we should be careful how hard we push the 'search' part of this activity on a Riv-specific forum. A while back I needed a DirtDrop stem, a headlight, and some reflectors. Rivendell sells them. They came expertly packed in a nice little box.

 

Joe "soapbox" Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Bill Lindsay]

I agree completely.  Bravo for the soapbox talk.  I try and give the benefit of the doubt to the WTB posts like that, assuming that the people fishing for a deal really sincerely cannot afford to pay full price.  You are absolutely right, though, that if everybody did it, it would represent a real problem.  I know I struggle with it, the need to feel like I'm getting a deal.  Fortunately for Rivendell, my need to get a deal usually just forces me to put more stuff in my cart so I can get the free shipping.  My need to get a deal led me to use both of the current coupon codes (January best/worst sellers + bike snob free shipping) and place an order yesterday.  

[Deacon Patrick]

+1. So many of the products Rivendell offers are not available anywhere else. They produce what they want that doesn't exist. That is incredible, and what they make happens to be incredibly practical and beautiful and brilliant and hearty and well crafted -- a very rare combination. I want to reward that and so I will happily buy less or save longer in order to buy from them.

My rule is this: I save up to buy what I want from them. If they no longer carry it, have stopped producing it, or it's a long or unknown wait, then I may go to the secondary market.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Right – the desire for a deal is satisfied by getting the free shipping, for me.  I can’t remember the last sub-$150 Riv order I placed.  OTOH, I have quite an inventory of chains and cassettes waiting for the right project.  ;-)

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[Bill Lindsay]

INVENTORY!  Now you are speaking my language.  My free-shipping-filler item now has moved to CX70 front derailers.  Anytime I need a few more dollars in my cart, I'll add one of those.  I've got two lifetimes worth of brakelevers, shiftlevers and rear derailers.  ;-) 

[iamkeith]

I agree completely, and might even take it a couple of steps further:

Don't forget that many of those products that are available elsewhere were actually designed BY Rivendell, with a significant outlay of their time and/or other resources.   It's not as if they even sell anything at unreasonably high prices but, even if they did, I think there's an obligation to patronize them ESPECIALLY for those products.   It makes me uncomfortable to see MKS "lambda" pedals, Tektro bigmouth brakes, Silver shifters, Nitto Mark's Racks, etc., etc. sold on other websites at all - but especially for a "token" discount over Riv Prices.  (And again, they're NOT always cheaper!!!)   I'll probably get some flack for this, but the one that REALLY bugs me is Velo Orange.   I mean I'm really glad that this particular market segment has grown large enough to support a cheaper derivative / knock-off company, but that's where it should end.  Not everybody can afford the high quality components that Riv insists on selling, and it's great that there are options for people who want not-dumb bikes, and can't afford top quality.   That's fair.  Even if it means buying from China, since that's the other alternative anyway.   But selling cheaper knock-off products is one thing, while also undercutting Riv by selling actual Riv-designed products, for a tiny bit less money, is kind of slimy.   

On Wednesday, January 29, 2014 10:25:03 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

I think of a bias toward buying from Riv as an investment in the continuing existence of an organization that makes my biking a lot more enjoyable.

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of iamkeith
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 2:43 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Riv horse-trading on a Riv-centric site

 

I agree completely, and might even take it a couple of steps further:

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[Bill Lindsay]

Riv sells the Grip King for $56 and VO sells it for $54, and every bike shop in the country can get them and sell them for about the same.  When Amazon has them for $40 (which they do), you have to give VO a pass.  

[Patrick Moore]

We've come to the point where Velo Orange is an enemy of Rivendell? That it is derivative and knockoff? This is simply stupid. I wonder what Grant has to say about this?

Patrick "Sheesh!" Moore, who has been supporting Rivendell since 1994 but who effing won't indulge in thoughtless cheerleading.

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Resumes that get interviews:

http://www.resumespecialties.com/

[Doug Van Cleve]

Heard and understood.  V-O has brought out some nice stuff (generally Frenchy style) that was either not widely available or always pricey.  I have some of their fender stuff and may end up with their threadless decaleur.

They also seem to carry a lot of stuff that only RBW carried, amoung bike shops anyway, that I can only assume they carry because RBW carries it.  I know GP loves hatchets, but come on, V-O has them too?  Opinel knives?  What really chaps my hide though are the V-O bottle cages that are darn close to Andrews King Cage knock-offs but are made offshore and yet still cost almost as much as King.

Doug

P.S.  I doubt GP or anybody at RBW thinks unused/unwanted but still good Nitto stuff (for instance) sitting around is a good thing...

[iamkeith]

Well, I did say I'd get some flack...   I believe that much of what the do is in fact Riv knock-off.  I did NOT say "enemy" though. 

[Patrick Moore]

Keith: I was angry at the post but I am not angry at you. Peace to you and your family.

Patrick "who really, REALLY should be working on a LI profile and not engaging in controversies" Moore

[Tim McNamara]

Grant has already said "good luck and best wishes" to VO publicly.  The two companies seem to be aimed at slightly different market niches with, inevitably, some overlap.

I've looked at the VO site a few times but have never bought anything.  There are a couple of small items I would be interested in but it always seems a bit silly to place a $10 order and pay as much again in shipping.

I remember hassling VO a bit when they first started out for marketing their products on a Riv-related mailing list and they promptly stopped, as they did not wish to give offense.  That got my respect even though my irritation and grumbling may have been out of line in the first place.  After all, Rivendell is a business and they have to compete in the market with whomever enters it- if they can't then the business is not sustainable.

Tim

[Daniel D.]

I believe V-O carried those first :p
On Wednesday, January 29, 2014 12:09:02 PM UTC-8, Doug Van Cleve wrote:

 Opinel knives? 

[Rocky B]

Ya, when I saw VO starting to sell knives and hatchets too...i said "really?  come ooooon." 

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Please let's back off the V-O comments.  Grant has addressed this more than a few times.  There's no "there" there in that discussion. 

It's hard to fault someone who has a decent piece of gear that they will no longer use, or something they tried out (handlebars, of late, come to mind here) that didn't quite work for them. If they want to post it here on the list, particularly if they are regular and active member of this group, I have to think that their actions come from the right place.   

And I do think that works from the purchasing end as well.  We can't know someone's financial position, and at times in life, the money saved or earned might have go directly to rent or food or care.

I suspect those transactions, though during the winter season they seem to particularly flourish, are still a small eddy compared the flow of goods from Walnut Creek.  It seems that for a great number of people here - with significant geographic spread -  RBW and RBBH are their "local" bike shops.

There are more WTB posts and FS posts which don't hit the list.  Those are typically from folks who try to post once and never do so again.  Don't know quite how to correlate those, but assume they are trying to find bargain bits for their ebay stores.

Having run a retail store for many years, I can attest that there is little more maddening than working with a customer (or watching your staff help someone) who was only using our shop inventory as a "showroom" for whatever internet company they were planning on buying something through.  And it is through that lens that I first view folks posting here that so-and-so has something Riv designed/sells at a hefty discount.  Though I do know people who will buy from someone who is literally a dollar cheaper, that's not the way I'm wired. As GP has written, I try to buy from the place I saw something first.  In 1994, there weren't a lot of resources around like Rivendell, so it seems appropriate to support them when I can. 

- Jim / cyclofiend.com

[Peter Morgano]

I vote that votes to take away people's  privileges are inherently bad.

On Jan 29, 2014 4:25 PM, "Michael" <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Why don't we vote, giving the ultimate decision to the site moderator, as to whether we want to stop buying/selling/trading on this site.

 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/29/2014 04:28 PM, Peter Morgano wrote:

I vote that votes to take away people's  privileges are inherently bad.

On Jan 29, 2014 4:25 PM, "Michael" <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Why don't we vote, giving the ultimate decision to the site moderator, as to whether we want to stop buying/selling/trading on this site.

If that's what's decided, y'all come on over to the iBOB list, where that sort of trading is an every day event.

[Liesl]

Back to Joe's original post...I have two, well actually three but the third one you already know, stories to tell. 
 
First story:  After my big Riv Chica Warrior Caper when I rode down the bike thief (for newcomers to the list, search the archives), the whole Riv team sent me a card that everyone signed and a gift certificate for $100 with the invoice description, "Award for Bravery."  It brought tears to my eyes, I was so touched.

Second Story: Back in August of 2012 when the Thin Gripsters pedals very first came out, I posted a query (the first on the listserv) as to whether anyone had experience with them because I thought they sounded great.  My life got busy and came back to the listserv and found 1) lots of good reports on the pedal, and 2) all the places one could purchase them for less then Riv was charging.  For so many many many reasons, I choose to give my business to Riv.  I went on the Riv site and dang it if they weren't all sold out of Thin Gripsters!  You snooze you lose!  And so I contacted Miesha and asked if they were going to get more Thin Gripsters in; that I wanted to give Riv the business.  Yes, came the answer; more were coming in.  And so I waited until they were in stock and ordered them.  A mysterious gift certificate showed up on my account for exactly the same amount as the pedals.  I noted in my order that I wasn't aware of this gift certificate; perhaps it was a mistake.  Then the pedals arrived (and I do love them) with an invoice that again posted the mysterious gift certificate.  I emailed Miesha, saying "I think I need to say thank you to someone for the beautiful thin gripster pedals, because they were paid for with an unknown-to-me gift certificate.  Perhaps it's a mistake, perhaps it's because someone saw on the listserv that I crashed in gravel and got 9 stitches...I don't know.  If it's a mistake, let me know; if not, thanks to whoever made it happen!  In any case, the pedals are wonderful and I love them."  Miesha wrote back saying that she was glad my stitches had healed and to be careful out there.  No mention of the gift certificate.  It remains a mystery.  My theory?  Someone at Riv (Miesha is a likely suspect) noticed that I waited to buy the pedals from them (unless one of you said, "Oh Liesl!  She needs something from Riv!  I'll buy her a gift certificate!) and issues the gift certificate.  Just a theory.

Third story:  I won the custom raffle.

And there are even more stories.

My point here is that if Riv has done all this for me (and I don't even deserve any of it), then I know that I'm not the only one.  To support a company like Riv who does the things they do, makes the things they make, and has the business ethics and generosity they have, I am happy to pay their reasonable prices.  It would be not honorable for me to try to save a few dollars.  And this doesn't even take into account the point Patrick Deacon made on this thread.  I am not indulging in effing thoughtless cheerleading (and I know, Patrick M, you love Riv); I am engaging in thoughtful, mindful, very present and real loyalty to a company that has earned it many many many times over.

Signed,
Riv Chica Warrior, MD, and wannabe Riv Poster Girl

[Deacon Patrick]

"Not everybody can afford the high quality components that Riv insists on selling, and it's great that there are options for people who want not-dumb bikes, and can't afford top quality."

iamkeith, I agree wholeheartedly with this, though I take issue with most everything else you said. As for the bits Rivendell designed but do not own, they did that windingly to get the produced in the first place, knowing what has happened would happen.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/29/2014 04:45 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote:
> "Not everybody can afford the high quality components that Riv insists
> on selling, and it's great that there are options for people who want
> not-dumb bikes, and can't afford top quality."
>
> iamkeith, I agree wholeheartedly with this, though I take issue with
> most everything else you said. As for the bits Rivendell designed but
> do not own, they did that windingly to get the produced in the first
> place, knowing what has happened would happen.
>

Time for some head-scratching. Seems to me most of the components Riv
sells fall into the "high quality - reasonable cost" camp, not the "top
quality" camp. Case in point: other than bar end shifters, how much
Dura Ace do you find in the Riv catalog? Not much that I recall. (And
note, it's bar end shifters, not electronic shifters you find.) Mostly
it's 105 or Ultegra level. While it's quality is just fine, would you
consider the typical-for-a-Riv-build Sugino XD-2 a "top quality" crank?
Fact is, the highest end cranks go for five to ten times what the XD-2
sells for. So, just what are these high end components that are being
complained about?

[Joe Bernard]

I hope it is apparent that my post was focused on WTB, and only for products Riv currently sells. As I said, if you already own/used the product and want to sell it, more power to you and the buyer; I've bought and sold many Rivvy things this way. In case that wasn't clear..

 

Joe "let me be clear, I WTB those Candybar Bags Riv used to make" Bernard

Vallejo, CA

[Bruce Herbitter]

Liesl:

You might have just that fetching look in a new striped wool top they
have! (I ordered one after getting the RBW email) and will report on it
after trying it on. yes, RBW clothes cost more than some other places,
but they've been good on the whole. Wore the 2d generation seersucker
riding shirt to work today in fact.

Tailwinds

Bruce


"wannabe Riv Poster Girl"

[samwe...@gmail.com]

I don't post here often (because *eep* I do not own a Rivendell!) but I just wanted to chime in that the sentiment expressed by Jim "I suspect those transactions…are still a small eddy compared the flow of goods from Walnut Creek" seems so totally on the mark to me that I wanted to endorse it. I buy new from Riv frequently, but I buy used from here and the BOB list just as frequently. And I feel I have never fallen into a moral crevasse when navigating between those purchasing techniques.

Buying new from places that can skim a dollar or two off via economies of scale is an inherently different situation -- those skimmed dollars are more or less being directly taken out of employee benefits and wages. I don't think that's true of the secondhand market.

Two unsolicited cents,

from Sam

in Chicago

On Wednesday, January 29, 2014 5:32:01 PM UTC-5, hsmitham wrote:

Jim,

Thank you for being the voice of moderation/reason. Peter M. Yes and a vigorous yes.

I will continue to use "WTB" transactions within my sense of reason. Rivendell's sucess or failure will not be determined by "WTB" transaction on this list-serve by posters like me. I usually  buy directly from Riv but at times I'll first look for something used. If you don't like that then don't respond to my query. If you don't like the "WTB" transaction it's easy don't use that feature...if your a bottom feeder than hopefully Jim catches you in his net and throws you back into the bay Yet another thing that Jim does that I was unaware of.

I wanted to not add to the Vitriol but what the heck it went sideways anyways.

~Hugh "WTB whatever" Smitham

On Wednesday, January 29, 2014 1:20:28 PM UTC-8, Cyclofiend Jim wrote:

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Used bikes and parts are pretty much the only kind I consider buying. And I believe I have probably sold as much or more here than I've purchased. I appreciate your concern for RBW, but don't believe we should arbitrarily limit the second hand market.

[Ron Mc]

I've always found that Rivendell has better prices on most things than can be found elsewhere - Crane bell for $12 - what a deal.  I keep an active Rivendell wish list and place several orders every year.  When I find better prices, or I want something that Rivendell doesn't carry, then I purchase elsewhere.  I honestly don't think it hurts Grant and Rivendell employees.  I don't think they want to be a mass parts discount house.  I also think the information about how we vote with our money is valuable to Grant - he sees where our interests lie. Rivendell inventory is based around what they need to assemble and outfit new bikes.   Let's see, what I have sold here.  A matched set of gray Sackville bags which were out of production - the buyer posted the query - and a couple of 7-speed freewheels.  Rivendell bags are a perfect example of the smart way Grant runs inventory - everything is a limited edition and it sells out - no waste and fairly quick turnaround on cash flow.  Getting the word out on promotional codes?  I think the purpose of promotions is to make us choose to buy something sooner rather than later, so that's a good thing, too.  

[Liesl]

Ron, I agree with what you wrote:  "Let's see, what I have sold here.  A matched set of gray Sackville bags which were out of production - the buyer posted the query - and a couple of 7-speed freewheels."  That kind of trading as others have noted, is a good thing; one in which I have participated. 

and also, "Rivendell bags are a perfect example of the smart way Grant runs inventory - everything is a limited edition and it sells out - no waste and fairly quick turnaround on cash flow." yep and related to buying/trading things here.

Bruce:  thanks for thinking of me as fetching! 

[PeterG]

Having spent thousands at Rivendell and hundreds on used equipment here, I see no harm in buying/selling used pieces on this site. When funds are slim and I need something, I come here because the people on this site are knowledgeable and you usually get exactly what Is promised (not so much on eBay or Craigslist). This site works great and is enjoyed by thousands. Why fix what ain't broke? I believe most people on here spend what they can at Rivendell. Everyone likes the new car smell, but we can't always afford the shiny new stuff. Many times its impossible to find Riv. Stuff used anywhere but on this site.I get the whole buy Rivendell to keep them going thing...and I do that whenever I can, but I still don't see any abuse of wtb on this site...just my 2 cents...PeterG

[Bill Lindsay]

I ordered a striped wool top too!  I hope I look fetching in mine.  More likely, I'll be such a dog that people tell me to "FETCH!"

:-)

[Philip Williamson]

I like seeing FS posts here, and I'm happy I can sell some things sometimes. I don't buy very much from Rivendell, but I don't buy very much of anything. My Rivendell cycling life is pretty satisfactory with what I have. Almost all my new-purchase Riv items come for Birthday/Xmas/Anniversary, which is a four-week window that just happened. Discounting the gifts, Rivendell has probably LOST money on me. I've probably led to a few sales via word-of-mouth, so maybe it's a wash. If I decide to buy a multi-thousand dollar bike, it will be a Roadeo or Legolas. Until that happens, I'll keep re-combining the bikes and parts I've got. 

My non-Riv cycling life just hit a flux point, but Rivendell doesn't sell flared drop bars or 29er tires. I have bought Thin Gripsters on eBay, because I want the bright colored ones that Rivendell doesn't sell. 

Cables, goops, etc., I buy from the bike shop 6 blocks away.

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Hiawatha Cyclery]

Rivendell is a company that has promoted good things, and they are nice people. But based on my limited understanding, this forum is hosted by google and moderated by a volunteer. In other words, there's no reason why this forum should be devoted solely to increasing Riv's sales. You should certainly buy from Riv if you want them to prosper, but I would say that there are plenty of bike companies and LBS's who are also working hard and deserve a little love.

[Bill Lindsay]

Everybody likes FS posts.  100% of everybody likes FS posts.  FS posts are super fun.  

[Michael]

As a rivbike enthusiast's forum, I would think that the joy of RBW bikes and parts would include trading/buying/selling, etc.

 

I have found some great used stuff here before that I couldn't find easily anywhere else. 

 

However, I prefer to buy new bike parts. And when I buy new, I  prefer to buy from Riv when I can because I trust them and know I will get a high quality part in new condition.

 

For instance, I have bought several Brooks saddles through the past couple of years from several vendors, and only Rivendell has sent me one that looked like it was actually a new piece.

I have received some from other vendors with crooked noses, flared sides, leaning-to-one-side, sit-bone dents, etc.

I don't like getting parts in the mail that look used since I am paying full price for them, and I have confidence that RBW doesn't foist used items off on their customers.

I confess that paying the full retail price for an expensive part can smart a little, but I feel  it is worth it in the long run to know that the part won't come to me defective or used and that it will last for years to come.

 

[Joe Bernard]

Including me. I've stated what I was referring to twice now, so I'm gonna have to let this thing run if some people still think I was talking about FS posts. I wasn't.

[Brian Campbell]

I posted the original WTB request that Grant responded to. I asked if anyone had a medium saddle bag for sale. If I did not get a response, (which I did not) I was planning to buy a new one from Riv, which will happen shortly. If it matters, I have been buying things from Riv since 2006.

 I find the amount of negativity & smugness associated with the topic a bit off-putting. 

[Bill Lindsay]

Everyone likes FS posts, Including Joe Bernard most of all. That was my point.

I posted that to defend your Original Post.  Nobody anywhere in this thread has said one negative thing about FS posts, least of all Joe.  

[Eric Platt]

Brian,

While I basically have nothing to say on this list anymore, I don't find the type of post you did to be offensive.  There are times when looking at all the bags and other stuff I have the thought comes "hmm, maybe someone will ask for one of these on the Riv list."  

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 6:30 PM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I posted the original WTB request that Grant responded to. I asked if anyone had a medium saddle bag for sale. If I did not get a response, (which I did not) I was planning to buy a new one from Riv, which will happen shortly. If it matters, I have been buying things from Riv since 2006.

 I find the amount of negativity & smugness associated with the topic a bit off-putting. 

--

[Ron Mc]

I vote Brian's post is OK, too.  We spend a bit of money on this stuff, and there are times when I may want to turn some of it back into cash.  Hey, I like Acorn bags, too, and I'm glad we can talk about them here.  Ron makes some really nice stuff, and his service is Top Notch (as is Rivendell's).  I've also bought 3 seat covers directly from Randi-Jo to get the colors I wanted.  Red on the red bike, blue on the blue bike, etc.  

[Bill Lindsay]

Hugh

Joe didn't say there was anything wrong with Brian's post either.  He just said that some WTB posts made him queasy.  He said he worried that we as a group might damage Rivs bottom line if it happened way too much.  I think this has been a perfectly fine exchange of ideas.  I always imagine these threads happening at the pub over a few pints.  I imagine every one of you typing with a smile on your face.  I hope you imagine the same of me, because I always do have a smile on my face.  This is an extremely fun group, even when we disagree. I don't think that's a storm of absurdity.  

Personally, I had no problem with Brian wanting to innocently check the group for the bag he wanted before laying out huge dollars on a new one.  I replied to his post about how psyched I was to install my bag, because I was overflowing with excitement for installing my bag.  I hope Brian didn't think I was passively-aggressively and (dirtiest of all dirty words) "smugly" bullying him into paying full-price.  I wasn't preaching, I was just giddy.  I hope I didn't offend.  

On Wednesday, January 29, 2014 4:48:08 PM UTC-8, hsmitham wrote:

Bill,

let's be ultra clear here...Joe's post took exception to "WTB" posts. That's what started this storm of absurdity. IMO there is nothing wrong with Brian's post. He like others and I look to save a bit before first buying from Riv. I'am glad others feel so freely about their money and don't actively look to save when they can. I can say with certainty that I've spent more at Riv than all the used parts I've picked up on this list.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipedemusings.blogspot.com/

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[Ron Mc]

H.G. Wells — 'Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race.'

[LBleriot]

As a recent beneficiary of a WTB post and a loyal Riv customer, I object to any attempt to curtail FS or WTB threads. This site is not Riv sponsored and I'm pretty sure that the minimal amount of buying and selling on this site is inconsequential when compared to the interest it generates in Riv products. Just my $.02.

[Joe Bernard]

Well gosh, that was fun. And about as popular as I expected.

[Eric Norris]

I vote for leaving WTB/FS/WTT as part of this list. I've found numerous great items here (most recently my new Blériot), and I've sent many items on to new homes where they are used and enjoyed. 

It's always a "wiling seller/willing buyer" transaction. If you don't want to buy or sell, just ignore those posts.

Eric N

www.CampyOnly.com

CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com

Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

On Jan 29, 2014, at 1:25 PM, Michael <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Why don't we vote, giving the ultimate decision to the site moderator, as to whether we want to stop buying/selling/trading on this site.

 

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[Ron Mc]

Joe, 50 replies in 8 hours - how popular do you want to be?  I think we're all having fun.  

[Bill Lindsay]

time for another pint, then...and another. all is good in my book. i have no beef. i'm beefless

[Deacon Patrick]

No and again the list goes a wee bit nuts. That's a good thing, considering the vast array of characters here.

Brian, please don't give anyone on the list any power of influence over you or how you feel or what you post in future. I'm delighted you're here and are looking for a great bag to have stuff with you on your ride.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

I'd probably want to be less popular now than when this topic seemed like a good idea this morning. But that's my own personal pathology for me to deal with..I'm a notorious second-guesser about these sorts of things. About 75% of everything I contribute to internet forums should come with a Mission:Impossible "will destruct in 5 seconds" device ;)

[Brian Campbell]

Hey all thanks for the kind words! I was not offended personally by anybody's post. I thought Grant's original post summed things up quite nicely. I just did not like the way the thread was headed. Seemed below the general discourse on the list. BTW, anyone have an Roadeo in 59cm they want to sell for a $1.00?  :) 

[PeterG]

Joe Bernard, I think your thought was fine. I like these discussions. Its what makes this website so great. Very few places left that a discussion can be had without bad feelings.....

[Christopher Murray]

Howdy!

I think the first thing we should acknowledge here is that the INTENT of the original post was to encourage people to support Rivendell- a company we all like/love. Who amongst us doesn't have a story of someone or someones at Rivendell going the extra mile? It is a great company, filled with great people, that will hopefully continue for a long, long time.

Whenever you buy something used- whether a FS or WTB- you AREN'T buying it new (obviously). Any used marketplace must take some business away from new retailers. Now whether the seller turns around and buys something new is definitely a possibility- I know I often do. And that is often from Riv. I think the thing that I will take away from this is to consider the ramifications of my buying choices and asking myself if I am comfortable with the how I am spending my money. If Riv or some other company goes away would that bother me?

I honestly see no real difference between an FS or WTB post- both leading to a transaction. I also think that the folks at Riv know that people buy used stuff- and they have even gone as far as selling used stuff on the site. I love WTB posts and several times have been able to send something that I was no longer using to a new home and put a few dollars in my pocket. I assume that the poster has considered how they want to spend their money before posting- and it is their money after all.

The posts I don't especially love are the RESPONSES to the WTB posts that say to buy it at Riv, Riv carries it, or some other snarky comment. Is this necessary? And I am not talking about any post where the person is genuinely trying to be helpful.

Cheers!
Chris

[Mike]

Ahh... Winter time on the RBW list...

[Michael Williams]

YES!!   Well said Leafslayer,  favorite post

On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Mike <mjaw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ahh... Winter time on the RBW list...

[Ron Mc]

Mikes, you should see now surly the bamboo-fly-rod trout fishers get in the winter.  

[iamkeith]

All,

I apologize for my earlier post that sort of derailed this conversation right at the beginning.  My premise really wasn't even valid, considering the original point of the thread.  I happened to take a quick look at the board, saw something that struck a chord, and hastily posted without really thinking it through.   Always a bad idea.  

Basically, I made a mental jump in recalling various posts that I've seen here over time, in which someone (with good intentions) points out that they found a Riv-designed product for sale cheaper somewhere else other than Riv.    New, not used.  There are totally unrelated reasons that this is a pet peeve of mine, but they stem from my own professional life and have no business being aired here.   Especially in a thread about the merits of selling used stuff, duh.  

Sorry again.  

[dougP]

Another side of WTB posts is the idea that someone may have something sitting around that they don't want / use / like / ?? but haven't gotten around to offering for sale.  Posting a WTB can motivate someone to move something along that's just gathering dust.  Bike parts used are happier than bike parts on the shelf. 

dougP

On Wednesday, January 29, 2014 5:39:48 PM UTC-8, LBleriot wrote:

[Mike]

This thread should go down in RBW Owner's Bunch history as WTBgate.

--mike

[Eric Norris]

Agreed ... And isn't re-using old stuff (even other people's old stuff) part of the whole idea of living more sustainably? "Reduce, *Reuse*, Recycle"? 

If a slightly used item will suit my needs just as well as a brand new one, I will generally go with the used item, if I can find it. I shop at my local thrift store, the surplus store at the local university, and the local consignment store. A good quality item that costs a fraction of new is my eyes a win-win.

I get the feeling this thread is losing steam, and I'm not trying to stoke the flames, but I'm surprised that people who buy (no pun intended) into Grant's general ethos about simple living would ever argue that we should only purchase new stuff, whether from Rivendell or anywhere else.

Eric N

www.CampyOnly.com

CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com

Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

--

[Joe Bernard]

It's definitely going down as the last one I'm in for a while. Somebody mentioned "winter on RBW", and although we haven't had much of one here, I still haven't been able to ride much lately. It shows! I shall go off-grid and on-pedals for a few months. Bye Rivvers!

 

Joe "I'd love to stay, but I gotta go" Bernard

On the road, CA.

[Ron Mc]

take photos, please

[Cyclofiend Jim]

As this thread winds down, I wanted to address a couple o' list/group/bunch-specific comments which cropped up and caught my eye:

- There will be no vote regarding the continuation of WTB of FS posts. The reason I added the "Transactions - Buy - Sell - Trade" tag was so that folks could ignore such posts if they chose to.

- As with everything else in this group, the basic assumption is that those posts are made in a positive and supportive manner.  The content and tone here relies upon each member.  I'd rather deal with things on an individual basis, which has worked well so far.  Over the years, all but three list members have responded positively to requests for corrections to tone and content.  Which is why this group pretty much rocks.

- As others have noted, there's a definite "seasonality" to list content.  It's kinda hard to post ride reports when it's -XX degrees outside.  The other tough time is that nasty spring thaw period where it's sloppy and cold but feeling warmer and enticing.  Usually a quick pause before posting cures a lot of the issues. Mindfulness requested.

- Thanks to Joe for starting this thread.  It's important to continue to ask questions about the direction of the group, and there are good many people who have been around since the beginning, whose views are always worth considering.

- Thank you to everyone who spoke up during this conversation. Again, the ability of this group to maintain civil discourse (when it's so easy to devolve into nasty sniping in any online venue) is what makes this group so special.

 - Jim / list admin / cyclofiend.com

[Bruce Herbitter]

He writes, hopefully...

:)

[Marty]

Very late to the game here. Apologies if the dust has settled and the wagon train has moved on. Just wanted to say I placed an order from Riv this afternoon after debating an Ebay purchase for the same item at virtually the same price. I thought the advantage to Ebay was the ability to use PayPal until I noticed that Riv accepts that now. (Where have I been?) Seeing that, it was a no-brainer to shop at Riv, and I added a couple small things to the order. Not sure that has been discussed in this thread, but buying and selling bits and pieces via PayPal keeps my bikebits cash flow in one place. It's a self-imposed discipline that I can only spend what I have in the PP account, and I can only add to the account if I sell something first. (Not all bike-related.) Keeps everything in check for the most part. I'm guessing many of us do the same. Order confirmation came through immediately, and less than an hour later an email saying my order had shipped. NO-ONE beats that!

[Evan Baird]

Other forums have a permanent FS/WTB sticky thread. If nothing else it makes it easy to find stuff rather than searching all over a bunch of separate threads. Cuts down on the noise too.

[Ron Mc]

If you click on the transactions tag on any transaction post, you will get the list of nothing but transactions posts.  That's how I found my wheelset from Bob when I was ready to buy them.  

[Brian Campbell]

POST SCRIPT: Bought my Medium Saddle Sack from Riv today and got the "fiddlesticks" discount to boot! :)

[Joe Bernard]

All is well in Riv World. Now DIE thread, DIE!