Bike Choice
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LeahFoy
Aug 1, 2013, 12:27:08 PM8/1/13
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In reading the thread about bike fit, I was reminded about another closely related topic: choosing a bike.
I was in the market for a new bike, and after a lifetime of Target bikes, a REAL bike from an LBS seemed like a lofty goal. I hit the only LBS with a brand name I recognized - Trek. Though my money was as good as anyone else's, I was treated like a nuisance and not a paying customer. The guys in lycra with carbon drop-bar bikes were revered and respected as they clicked their way through the store. I was immediately steered to their basic 1.0 model of the comfort Navigator line in a remote corner of the store. They quoted me a price of several hundred dollars and left me to think it over. I left the shop feeling confused. I was willing to spend several hundred bucks but had only been given a curt introduction to the bike. I had no idea why they felt it was 'the' bike for me, and I wasn't even sure I liked how the bike felt. Was it really an improvement over my Target Schwinn? I hit Craigslist and found a Trek 7.6FX for sale. I bought it, and it was the nicest riding bike I'd ever had. But I was left with this nagging annoyance at being leaned forward with too much weight on my hands. i couldn't look up at the gorgeous bike path scenery. I was also very limited in my terrain, due to the skinny, high pressure tires on the bike. I had to tell my boys 'no' every time they asked to take a dirt road. I hit the internet, specifically a women's biking forum, who insisted that flat bars were horrid and drop bars were what I needed. I kept thinking (almost shamefully) that my upright bars on my old Target bike would be more comfortable, but I banished the thought because one isn't taken seriously when one prefers upright bars. The Specialized Ruby was being recommended over and over again. Its relaxed geometry and those comfortable drop bars were repeated like a mantra to me. I visited the Specialized LBS, who raved about the comfort of the Ruby. I wanted a bike that would pull a tag-along, and that I could put a rack on so I could haul stuff. People looked at me funny. They didn't know how any of that would jive with the bike. But they still sung the praises of the carbon Ruby.
By now, I had gotten addicted to riding all over town to my son's school, on errands, and for pleasure. As the bike became more and more important to me, I got ready to make a purchase. I was THIS CLOSE to buying the carbon drop-bar bike because I believed the "experts" that this was a fantastic and comfortable bike that I would just LOVE. They knew what I wanted the bike for, and of my complaints of weight on hands, etc, and yet they arrived at this conclusion. They were totally ok with me shelling out almost 2k for a bike that would be ill-suited to my needs.
One night I did an Amazon search of books on cycling. Grant Petersen's book lit up my screen. I saw a bike with upright bars on the cover. I saw lots of stars in the book reviews. I bought the book. Suddenly, the heavens opened and choirs of angels began to sing! He was talking about RACKS, and upright bars, and kickstands, and all manner of practical things that would aid me in using the bike around town! I went to his website, and as a lover of literature/writing myself, I was totally taken with him and his brand. I knew gold when I found it; and it was Rivendell.
Shortly after, I cut some household expenses, sold the Trek (for more than I bought it for, BTW), and asked Keven if he had a Betty for me. He found one, had it built within a week, and my family jumped in the van to make the 5 hour trek to Riv HQ.
I love my bike. It's exactly what I needed, and even what I WANTED. It's pretty, it's useful, and it's reliable. I shudder when I think of the nightmare that would have been pulling a tag-along on a drop bar carbon Ruby. Maybe some of you do that, but it would have been all wrong for me. And the point of my story is that nobody in the LBS stores cared that it was. I was excruciatingly specific in what kind of cyclist I was, but they still recommended a bike that was ill-suited for me.
I'm so glad I have my Rivendell Betty Foy. Anyone else have a similar story?
I was in the market for a new bike, and after a lifetime of Target bikes, a REAL bike from an LBS seemed like a lofty goal. I hit the only LBS with a brand name I recognized - Trek. Though my money was as good as anyone else's, I was treated like a nuisance and not a paying customer. The guys in lycra with carbon drop-bar bikes were revered and respected as they clicked their way through the store. I was immediately steered to their basic 1.0 model of the comfort Navigator line in a remote corner of the store. They quoted me a price of several hundred dollars and left me to think it over. I left the shop feeling confused. I was willing to spend several hundred bucks but had only been given a curt introduction to the bike. I had no idea why they felt it was 'the' bike for me, and I wasn't even sure I liked how the bike felt. Was it really an improvement over my Target Schwinn? I hit Craigslist and found a Trek 7.6FX for sale. I bought it, and it was the nicest riding bike I'd ever had. But I was left with this nagging annoyance at being leaned forward with too much weight on my hands. i couldn't look up at the gorgeous bike path scenery. I was also very limited in my terrain, due to the skinny, high pressure tires on the bike. I had to tell my boys 'no' every time they asked to take a dirt road. I hit the internet, specifically a women's biking forum, who insisted that flat bars were horrid and drop bars were what I needed. I kept thinking (almost shamefully) that my upright bars on my old Target bike would be more comfortable, but I banished the thought because one isn't taken seriously when one prefers upright bars. The Specialized Ruby was being recommended over and over again. Its relaxed geometry and those comfortable drop bars were repeated like a mantra to me. I visited the Specialized LBS, who raved about the comfort of the Ruby. I wanted a bike that would pull a tag-along, and that I could put a rack on so I could haul stuff. People looked at me funny. They didn't know how any of that would jive with the bike. But they still sung the praises of the carbon Ruby.
By now, I had gotten addicted to riding all over town to my son's school, on errands, and for pleasure. As the bike became more and more important to me, I got ready to make a purchase. I was THIS CLOSE to buying the carbon drop-bar bike because I believed the "experts" that this was a fantastic and comfortable bike that I would just LOVE. They knew what I wanted the bike for, and of my complaints of weight on hands, etc, and yet they arrived at this conclusion. They were totally ok with me shelling out almost 2k for a bike that would be ill-suited to my needs.
One night I did an Amazon search of books on cycling. Grant Petersen's book lit up my screen. I saw a bike with upright bars on the cover. I saw lots of stars in the book reviews. I bought the book. Suddenly, the heavens opened and choirs of angels began to sing! He was talking about RACKS, and upright bars, and kickstands, and all manner of practical things that would aid me in using the bike around town! I went to his website, and as a lover of literature/writing myself, I was totally taken with him and his brand. I knew gold when I found it; and it was Rivendell.
Shortly after, I cut some household expenses, sold the Trek (for more than I bought it for, BTW), and asked Keven if he had a Betty for me. He found one, had it built within a week, and my family jumped in the van to make the 5 hour trek to Riv HQ.
I love my bike. It's exactly what I needed, and even what I WANTED. It's pretty, it's useful, and it's reliable. I shudder when I think of the nightmare that would have been pulling a tag-along on a drop bar carbon Ruby. Maybe some of you do that, but it would have been all wrong for me. And the point of my story is that nobody in the LBS stores cared that it was. I was excruciatingly specific in what kind of cyclist I was, but they still recommended a bike that was ill-suited for me.
I'm so glad I have my Rivendell Betty Foy. Anyone else have a similar story?
Zack
Aug 1, 2013, 12:51:09 PM8/1/13
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I have a good story - the same but different.
I got back into cycling as an adult when a friend gave me a 54 cm Trek 520 touring bike. I am 6'3. The bike is great, but it was OBVIOUSLY too small for me. I rode it anyway, used it for transportation, and loved it. I decided I wanted to get a bike that fit better, so I headed to my LBS to find one. I felt trepidation as well when I walked through the store.
Instead of being forced into a brand new carbon fiber racing machine (I am 6'3" and a big dude), my local bike shop, The Old Spokes Home in Burlington, Vermont, helped me pick out a steel bike that would better suit my needs - a Salsa Casseroll. I thank those dudes every time I go in for helping me onto that bike, because that is what got me to the place where I totally love riding. I graduated from the Salsa to a Sam, and have a Hunq now too.
Just wanted to put a plug in and say that not all LBS experiences are bad, the fellows at the OSH pointed me on exactly the right trajectory for my life, riding style, and bike needs.
Also, welcome!
dougP
Aug 1, 2013, 1:24:52 PM8/1/13
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LeahFoy:
Your experience with bike shops is one that repeats often. For some reason we expect bike shop people to be above "selling what's on the floor" but alas, in many cases, it just ain't so. Fortunately you found Rivendell.
I've mused on how much better the bike shop experience could be if the employees had just a bit of training in the sales process. After all, if you walk into a clothing store to buy a suit, the sales person would be crazy to show you blue jeans. Primarily this means asking the customer questions about what they want & how they intend to use it. It's really quite simple but seems to have escaped a lot of retailers. "What are you riding now?" and "What changes are you looking for?" and "What type of riding do you do?", etc., etc. Instead you probably got a lot of "This is our best selling bike..." or "This has the latest features...." or similar.
The bike industry can be it's own worst enemy at times (heavy sigh).
dougP
Your experience with bike shops is one that repeats often. For some reason we expect bike shop people to be above "selling what's on the floor" but alas, in many cases, it just ain't so. Fortunately you found Rivendell.
I've mused on how much better the bike shop experience could be if the employees had just a bit of training in the sales process. After all, if you walk into a clothing store to buy a suit, the sales person would be crazy to show you blue jeans. Primarily this means asking the customer questions about what they want & how they intend to use it. It's really quite simple but seems to have escaped a lot of retailers. "What are you riding now?" and "What changes are you looking for?" and "What type of riding do you do?", etc., etc. Instead you probably got a lot of "This is our best selling bike..." or "This has the latest features...." or similar.
The bike industry can be it's own worst enemy at times (heavy sigh).
dougP
Anne Paulson
Aug 1, 2013, 1:34:40 PM8/1/13
to rbw-owners-bunch
Doug, you're right, but also the employees in these offending bike
shops need to have a better idea of what kind of bike suits what kind
of riding, instead of steering everyone to racy carbon fiber bikes
with low handlebars and narrow tires. After all, LeahFoy clearly
explained what she wanted her bike for, and yet the salespeople still
tried to sell her a bike that was not at all appropriate to her kind
of riding.
I guess we're all bad at putting ourselves in the other person's
shoes, but sales people really ought to be able to get away from what
they value in a bike, and empathize with what the customer values in a
bike. And it would be nice if bike sales people would point out that
weight is not the only concern.
A person who wants to get started riding ought to be able to walk into
a bike shop, and come out with a nice low- or medium-level bike that
suits their fitness and their intended use.
> I've mused on how much better the bike shop experience could be if the
> employees had just a bit of training in the sales process. After all, if
> you walk into a clothing store to buy a suit, the sales person would be
> crazy to show you blue jeans. Primarily this means asking the customer
> questions about what they want & how they intend to use it. It's really
> quite simple but seems to have escaped a lot of retailers. "What are you
> riding now?" and "What changes are you looking for?" and "What type of
> riding do you do?", etc., etc. Instead you probably got a lot of "This is
> our best selling bike..." or "This has the latest features...." or similar.
--
-- Anne Paulson
It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
shops need to have a better idea of what kind of bike suits what kind
of riding, instead of steering everyone to racy carbon fiber bikes
with low handlebars and narrow tires. After all, LeahFoy clearly
explained what she wanted her bike for, and yet the salespeople still
tried to sell her a bike that was not at all appropriate to her kind
of riding.
I guess we're all bad at putting ourselves in the other person's
shoes, but sales people really ought to be able to get away from what
they value in a bike, and empathize with what the customer values in a
bike. And it would be nice if bike sales people would point out that
weight is not the only concern.
A person who wants to get started riding ought to be able to walk into
a bike shop, and come out with a nice low- or medium-level bike that
suits their fitness and their intended use.
> I've mused on how much better the bike shop experience could be if the
> employees had just a bit of training in the sales process. After all, if
> you walk into a clothing store to buy a suit, the sales person would be
> crazy to show you blue jeans. Primarily this means asking the customer
> questions about what they want & how they intend to use it. It's really
> quite simple but seems to have escaped a lot of retailers. "What are you
> riding now?" and "What changes are you looking for?" and "What type of
> riding do you do?", etc., etc. Instead you probably got a lot of "This is
> our best selling bike..." or "This has the latest features...." or similar.
-- Anne Paulson
It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
Ron Mc
Aug 1, 2013, 1:39:08 PM8/1/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
comfortable, useful, efficient, fast - I'm sorry, you'll have to pick one - we don't have a pigeonhole for that.
LeahFoy
Aug 1, 2013, 2:07:36 PM8/1/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Also, there is a certain attitude one often encounters in some shops. My sister and her husband lived downtown in a big city when her husband was going through law school. He used a bicycle to get around, and one day, it needed some repair work. Heather took the bike in to the shop, and will never forget being made to feel so small. The employee looked down his nose at that silver Target Schwinn, and said, "We can fix it, but you know there's only so much you can do to a bike like that. It won't ever ride as well as....." and then droned on about the nicer bikes for sale in his shop. She was so upset because at that time, that was the best they could afford, and they weren't there to be told how crappy their bike was; they were there for a simple repair.
When my boys were ready for upgrades on their little bikes, I started out back at the Trek store. (I asked Riv if they had a kids' bike to recommend, and they really didn't.) I wheeled the little 16 in Trek Jet to the counter and waited. There was one other customer in the whole store and 3-4 employees working. I stood at that counter for almost 20 minutes. They joked with each other, and paid attention to the lycra-clad male customer in the store, but they ignored me, my 4 year old Lincoln and our little bike. I could have called someone over, but since I was standing in plain sight and knew they had seen me, I didn't. Finally, I slowly wheeled the little bike back and left the store. No one said a word to me. I drove straight to the Specialized store, where they greeted us warmly, and purchased the Lincoln's Hotrock for more money.
When my boys were ready for upgrades on their little bikes, I started out back at the Trek store. (I asked Riv if they had a kids' bike to recommend, and they really didn't.) I wheeled the little 16 in Trek Jet to the counter and waited. There was one other customer in the whole store and 3-4 employees working. I stood at that counter for almost 20 minutes. They joked with each other, and paid attention to the lycra-clad male customer in the store, but they ignored me, my 4 year old Lincoln and our little bike. I could have called someone over, but since I was standing in plain sight and knew they had seen me, I didn't. Finally, I slowly wheeled the little bike back and left the store. No one said a word to me. I drove straight to the Specialized store, where they greeted us warmly, and purchased the Lincoln's Hotrock for more money.
Steve Palincsar
Aug 1, 2013, 2:17:24 PM8/1/13
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On 08/01/2013 02:07 PM, LeahFoy wrote:
> I wheeled the little 16 in Trek Jet to the counter and waited. There
> was one other customer in the whole store and 3-4 employees working. I
> stood at that counter for almost 20 minutes. They joked with each
> other, and paid attention to the lycra-clad male customer in the
> store, but they ignored me, my 4 year old Lincoln and our little bike.
> I could have called someone over, but since I was standing in plain
> sight and knew they had seen me, I didn't. Finally, I slowly wheeled
> the little bike back and left the store. No one said a word to me. I
> drove straight to the Specialized store, where they greeted us warmly,
> and purchased the Lincoln's Hotrock for more money.
Sometimes shops like that are snobby about the bikes; sometimes they're
> I wheeled the little 16 in Trek Jet to the counter and waited. There
> was one other customer in the whole store and 3-4 employees working. I
> stood at that counter for almost 20 minutes. They joked with each
> other, and paid attention to the lycra-clad male customer in the
> store, but they ignored me, my 4 year old Lincoln and our little bike.
> I could have called someone over, but since I was standing in plain
> sight and knew they had seen me, I didn't. Finally, I slowly wheeled
> the little bike back and left the store. No one said a word to me. I
> drove straight to the Specialized store, where they greeted us warmly,
> and purchased the Lincoln's Hotrock for more money.
snobby about the looks of the customers. There used to be this boutique
shop near where I live that would ignore anyone in the queue that wasn't
either a hot looking young woman or a buff young man. You could be
there with $12,000 worth of bikes, but if you were middle aged and a bit
on the pudgy side they would look right through you and never wait on
you. They're gone now, but not on account of their attitude; the owner
learned one day he had cancer, and died the following day, with no
succession plan in place. I couldn't help but thinking "Good riddance!"
when I learned of it.
Patrick Moore
Aug 1, 2013, 2:26:24 PM8/1/13
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I don't know if Target "Schwinns" are as bad as Walmart specials, but working at Stevie's that specializes in "everyday" riders and older bikes I get all sorts of customers wanting to put right cheap chain store bikes that are -- how to express it sufficiently strongly -- amazingly badly built; like the new $80 WM special I checked recently for a young man which had cheap V brakes with springs of metal so soft and pliable they were, very literally, like thicker paper clips: you could bend them with your little finger and they would not keep their shape -- plastic rather than elastic. You literally could not adjust the brakes. And bearings that won't stay in adjustment, no matter what you do -- tho' I have been surprised at how well cheap indexed drivetrain stay in tune despite horrible neglect.
The point is that some "bike shaped objects" are simply not capable of maintenance and should never have been sold in the first place.
This is no excuse for rudeness, but one very useful service a bike shop employee can give is to explain to such owners that there is simply nothing to be done, and that buying a cheap used bike for $100 is a far, far better deal.
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:07 PM, LeahFoy <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:
. The employee looked down his nose at that silver Target Schwinn, and said, "We can fix it, but you know there's only so much you can do to a bike like that. It won't ever ride as well as....." and then droned on about the nicer bikes for sale in his shop. She was so upset because at that time, that was the best they could afford, and they weren't there to be told how crappy their bike was; they were there for a simple repair.
LeahFoy
Aug 1, 2013, 2:30:57 PM8/1/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Really? That's horrid! Maybe that was our problem! Attached is a photo of my two sisters and me, and my two sons. I'm in white, my sister (with the Schwinn) is in yellow. Maybe we aren't much to look at, but Lincoln is the most darling baby ever!
dougP
Aug 1, 2013, 8:34:34 PM8/1/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
In both instances those employees were just plain rude. That behavior is inexcusable. Good on you for walking away & voting with your wallet elsewhere.
How many people want to start riding but need help selecting an affordable, appropriate bike to get started, encounter this sort of attitude, and decide "biking seems pretty snobbish; I'll look into something else"?
dougP
How many people want to start riding but need help selecting an affordable, appropriate bike to get started, encounter this sort of attitude, and decide "biking seems pretty snobbish; I'll look into something else"?
dougP
cyclotourist
Aug 2, 2013, 2:38:44 AM8/2/13
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Leah, I'm glad those negative experiences didn't turn you off of
cycling completely! Then you would have never found your Betty!!!
My wife had an unfortunately similar experience picking up parts at a
LBS. She stood around for 15 min waiting to get helped while all the
bros yacked it up. We don't give that shop our money any more.
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Cheers,
David
"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal
cycling completely! Then you would have never found your Betty!!!
My wife had an unfortunately similar experience picking up parts at a
LBS. She stood around for 15 min waiting to get helped while all the
bros yacked it up. We don't give that shop our money any more.
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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Cheers,
David
"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal
NWAJack
Aug 2, 2013, 6:40:55 AM8/2/13
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Similar story. Got into bikes about 5 years ago as an adult in my 50s, potbelly and bad knees and all. Bought a Trek 1.2 from the lbs. Loved it and loved riding, but sure got tired and sore after a 40 or 50 mile ride. Started looking for the carbon bike that everyone said I needed. Then wife bought me GP's book for christmas. Wow. I can carry things in bags? Things like sandwiches! Platform pedals? Comfort? Ordered my Homer about 6 months later. Amazing bike. I now ride 50-100 miles at a time in comfort!!
Leah Peterson
Aug 2, 2013, 10:47:48 AM8/2/13
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How true! I had caught the bike bug pretty bad, so I persevered. ;). I'm so glad I found Betty; I love even just looking at her. I smile EVERY time I run out to the garage and glance her way.
We girls aren't going to be able to be ignored in bike shops much longer - there are tons of women's cycling blogs and women getting into bikes, period. I think we'll be seeing more ladies who know what they are in the market for, and will be in stores to buy it. The LBS that ignores them will watch his competitor grow.
Especially exciting to me is the rise of the urban female commuter. The trend is to use your bike and look darling doing it. I can get on board with that!
I hope you and your wife found an LBS that works great for you. Ride on!
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We girls aren't going to be able to be ignored in bike shops much longer - there are tons of women's cycling blogs and women getting into bikes, period. I think we'll be seeing more ladies who know what they are in the market for, and will be in stores to buy it. The LBS that ignores them will watch his competitor grow.
Especially exciting to me is the rise of the urban female commuter. The trend is to use your bike and look darling doing it. I can get on board with that!
I hope you and your wife found an LBS that works great for you. Ride on!
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Anne Paulson
Aug 2, 2013, 11:33:26 AM8/2/13
to rbw-owners-bunch
The key to getting bikes accepted as a normal mode of transportation
is getting women to ride. As long as bike commuting is something done
predominantly by young men, it is seen as something for crazy
daredevils, not something standard and usual. But when young women
start riding to work in normal work clothes, and when young mothers
start hauling their kids around on bikes as a matter of course, then
cycling becomes the way some people get around, a way that we all have
to allow for when doing urban and suburban transportation planning.
So go chicas!
>
> Especially exciting to me is the rise of the urban female commuter. The trend is to use your bike and look darling doing it. I can get on board with that!
is getting women to ride. As long as bike commuting is something done
predominantly by young men, it is seen as something for crazy
daredevils, not something standard and usual. But when young women
start riding to work in normal work clothes, and when young mothers
start hauling their kids around on bikes as a matter of course, then
cycling becomes the way some people get around, a way that we all have
to allow for when doing urban and suburban transportation planning.
So go chicas!
>
> Especially exciting to me is the rise of the urban female commuter. The trend is to use your bike and look darling doing it. I can get on board with that!
Ron Mc
Aug 2, 2013, 11:35:49 AM8/2/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
my nephew and his wife are in Kazakhstan, and she does everything on a bike with two small kids
Matt Beebe
Aug 2, 2013, 11:56:13 AM8/2/13
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On Friday, August 2, 2013 11:33:26 AM UTC-4, Anne Paulson wrote:
The key to getting bikes accepted as a normal mode of transportation
is getting women to ride. As long as bike commuting is something done
predominantly by young men, it is seen as something for crazy
daredevils, not something standard and usual. But when young women
start riding to work in normal work clothes, and when young mothers
start hauling their kids around on bikes as a matter of course, then
cycling becomes the way some people get around, a way that we all have
to allow for when doing urban and suburban transportation planning.
100% agree with this. In my area more and more women are riding bikes, and that is the key. You also see a lot more men wearing regular clothes out on the road. I feel like thanking people sometimes because it is so heartening to see. Anyway it is a good sign.
Rex Kerr
Aug 2, 2013, 5:44:29 PM8/2/13
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I suspect that most of us have had bad experiences when we first started out.
In my university student days I used to ride a cheap department store bike. I rode it a lot of miles and did all of the maintenance myself, though still didn't know much about bikes, just figuring it out as I went. I remember once taking it into a small bike shop to ask for new bottom bracket bearings so that I could overhaul the one piece crank. The guy working there gave me a very long lecture about how it was a piece of junk, wasn't worth riding, couldn't be overhauled, and -- wait... you're planning to use automotive grease in those bearings? No, no, no! You want this super expensive lithium bike specific grease! He didn't believe me that I'd ridden it as far as 70 miles in a single day and it worked OK for me at the time. I finally overhauled it (with cheap automotive grease) and continued to ride it for many years.
I finally decided one day (once I had a real job) to get a nice bike. It was kind of a whim... just stopped in at a shop that had signs saying they were having a sale. I was looking at the cheap hybrid bikes and was looking at a 22" frame model, but the guy working there kept steering me to the 20" frame. I have no idea why, especially considering I'm a hair under 6'4". I took his advice (what did I know? I'd been riding one-size-fits-few bikes from KMart) and bought the 20" frame. While it was a big mistake and I now know that even the 22" was too small, it did get me into cyling -- big time! I got rather excited about it! Over the next few years I bought an extra long seatpost, new handlebars with more reach, etc...
Attempts to make it fit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rexkerr/6639222403/
What the heck, turn it into a MTB: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rexkerr/6639161251/
A few years later I found a really nice riding but much older Peugeot road bike. It rode GREAT and fit me really well (it was a BIG ONE), but the cottered crank didn't go around straight (a common problem with them). I took it to the same shop, and he basically convinced me to junk the bike. Oh, how mad I am about that now! Now I'd just stick a new french threaded cartridge BB in it for $20 or so and some new/used low end cranks and have it riding like a dream!
So... without his help, I did find a much larger low end 62cm Nishiki at Salvation Army for $25... I then moved all of the running gear from the bike he'd sold me over to the Nishiki and rode it for a long time as my primary bike! Again, still way too small, but over time I learned about Nitto Technomic stems and put in a longer seatpost, and it fit OK -- in fact, I still ride it as my beater bike when I'll be leaving it locked up somewhere or abusing it. It rides like a dream and I still like it to this day!
During this timeframe I discovered Rivendell and was influenced very much by them and others who had similar ideas about bike fit and design and discovered that it completely agreed with what I was discovering on my own, yet I still wanted a "go fast bike". So, I started again... new shop. Everybody kept telling me "you don't want a road bike, you want a mountain bike!" This was during a time around the year 2000 when the road bike was nearly extinct. (hard to believe now) Anyhow, I managed to find a shop that had a few road bikes, and they put me on a Specialized Allez (traditional horizontal TT geometry) w/ 60 cm frame! Again, after years of trying to make it fit, I finally realized why it would never work. Another shop that was known to specialize in fit spent a lot of time with me trying to make it work before just telling me that if I ever wanted a bike that fit well, I'd have to go full custom.
...many more bikes in between...
I now know that I best fit on a bike with traditional geometry and a frame size between 67 and 69 cm. I can fit something smaller but I know that I'm making a compromise. For example, I recently upgraded my small for its size Trek 520 by replacing the frame with a newly available 64cm Surly LHT frame, which feel much bigger for any given size -- knowing that it's still not perfect, but it's the biggest "off the shelf bike" that anybody sells.
63 cm Trek 520 still too small: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rexkerr/6638127641/
I'm very happy with my 67 A Homer Hilsen, though still wonder sometimes if I should have held out and tried to find a way to test ride a 69 before making my final decision.
AHH fits well: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rexkerr/5934743783/
Everywhere I go I see people on undersized bikes that are too small, but it's really nice to know that there's at least one guy out there promoting properly fitting bikes. :-)
-Rex
--
LeahFoy
Aug 2, 2013, 8:41:26 PM8/2/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Honestly, it has been so fun reading everyone's stories - even the negative ones - because each story ends happily: with a Riv.
On Thursday, August 1, 2013 9:27:08 AM UTC-7, LeahFoy wrote:
On Thursday, August 1, 2013 9:27:08 AM UTC-7, LeahFoy wrote:
Deacon Patrick
Aug 2, 2013, 9:28:45 PM8/2/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I never went to my LBS this time to buy a bike. I'd not ridden a bike for about 10 years due to my brain injury, though every now and again I'd foolishly hop on my wife's Dahon folder (I have constant neurological vertigo due to damage in my brain stem). One day, after going barefoot or moccasined for three years (which opened up being able to walk, hike, and run without sticks for the first time since 2002) I tried the folder again. Success! I could ride to .2 of a mile without my brain shorting out. Gadzooks! What if the bike fit me, what material would be best? How could I test out my best thoughts at answers without breaking the bank?
I connected with a bike ministry in our area and they let me try out a few bikes. Steel definitely. But I was only able ride 3 miles on the China Schwinn cross bike. It felt fairly swimmy. After reading a lot and searching, I discovered Rivendell and Grant. We talked. He thought I was nuts (not wrong) but I somehow convinced him that his bike would not be the instant finishing of the job that's been started on my noggin.
I don't track milage, but days of fun on the bike over the last 16 months of having my Hunqapillar have been over 300 I'd guess. I can't (yet) run errands with it much (too much stimulation in towns and shops), but it is how I make it through town quickly to the trailhead to escape the regular noise or run the trails. It's opened up backcountry travel for me again (I can't carry weight above my waist), and I've have grand tours of the Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail and the Colorado Trail and other backcountry singletrack and roads. It's opened up backcountry touring with my family.
As near as I can tell because the attention Grant pays to every design and manufacturing detail, the quality, the lugs, and how they transfer the energy of the bike on the earth to the rider (I use proprioception through my feet and hands and rear to know where I am in space, though my brain hasn't a clue) is so qualitatively different that riding this bike helps my brain recover -- I just have to be doing well enough to hop on it and go (not always easy to come by).
With abandon,
Patrick
dougP
Aug 2, 2013, 11:25:01 PM8/2/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
One of the most successful branches of a chain shop here in So Cal is run by a woman. Her unofficial title is the "Queen of Fit" because she takes the time to work thru fit issues with women so that they're comfortable and will enjoy the bike, not ride it 2X & stick it in the garage. She doesn't do anything a guy couldn't do; she just asks questions, pays attention to the answers & gives the customer what they want. What a novel concept!
An older gal I know wanted a new bike (after 30 years) & something light so she could load it in the car, etc. She got her bike at this shop - carbon fiber race bike with flat bars, stem extension to bring the bars up, MTB brake levers & shifters, cushy seat, & flat pedals. She's comfortable & loves the bike. It can be done.
dougP
An older gal I know wanted a new bike (after 30 years) & something light so she could load it in the car, etc. She got her bike at this shop - carbon fiber race bike with flat bars, stem extension to bring the bars up, MTB brake levers & shifters, cushy seat, & flat pedals. She's comfortable & loves the bike. It can be done.
dougP
dougP
Aug 2, 2013, 11:31:49 PM8/2/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Given enough time, enough miles, enough bikes, all roads leads to Rivendell.
dougP (no serious bike shopping since the Atlantis arrived)
dougP (no serious bike shopping since the Atlantis arrived)
Tom Virgil
Aug 3, 2013, 2:09:48 AM8/3/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
You and your family look great. I loved your story that kicked this off and you seem to have hit a heartstring among our folks that ride the bikes we do and their bike shop experiences. My daughter got into this thing with a Ruby and burned out after about three years. She has been eying my Samuel Hillborne and wondering "What's going on with dad riding a bike with a basket and a canvas shopping bag?".
I have the proverbial carbon fiber road bike (Roubaix) and way over engineered 29er (Epic). I ride them and like them. But the Sam broke through a boundary and made me ride a lot more. Long rides and short rides. A spin around the neighborhood in flip flops. A long reach and stopping to fix something to eat and reading a book. It's all good. Going to the Wholefoods store and taking Sam into the store with me to do my shopping, depositing things into his basket and bag, and checking out is just cool.
Coastal San Diego is pretty saturated with high end bike shops. Trek Superstore, B&L, Nytro, Revolution, HiTech. They are all quite optimized for triathlon bikes and cater to the tris. I am in good shape and have some great bikes, but I get ignored for being somewhat older and not splurging on things like an aerodynamic seatpost. I will set aside Pacific Cycles and my dear friend, Chuck Hoefer, who I have known since he emerged from the North county Masi operation and started a bike shop. He built my first Salsa and I still have it and ride that bike today. He is in Oceanside and I can't always get up there.
Now would you believe the best "goto" folks for getting things done nearby is the Performance Bicycle Shop in Sorrento Valley. They have their own "brands" but they sell a lot of other stuff at good prices. I have spent a lifetime accumulating various Park tools for maintenance. It has been good to learn how to use them. But, if there is something I can't handle, or the cost of the next tool is more than the maintenance, I go to them. They are very good. Never condescending. And they can usually do things in the moment rather than tag your bike and get it back to you at some time later. They have been very respectful of my eclectic collection of bikes. despite the fact they did not sell them to me.
Best regards,
Tom
IanA
Aug 3, 2013, 3:53:55 AM8/3/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I just want to say that whenever you post, Patrick, I am always excited to read what you have to say. The integrity you bring to your words and experience is almost tangible for the reader. Your words below seem to integrate the personal energy of the designer and the builder into the bicycle creating something utterly organic and fluid. It is the Zen of Patrick.
"As near as I can tell because the attention Grant pays to every design and manufacturing detail, the quality, the lugs, and how they transfer the energy of the bike on the earth to the rider (I use proprioception through my feet and hands and rear to know where I am in space, though my brain hasn't a clue) is so qualitatively different that riding this bike helps my brain recover -- I just have to be doing well enough to hop on it and go (not always easy to come by)."
bobish
Aug 3, 2013, 5:19:51 AM8/3/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Unfortunately, most of the women I see riding in my area are just copying the carbon boys in equipment, style, and even bad manners. Some even seem to be trying to one up them (overcompensating?). When it comes to cycling, simply put, there's not enough dilly-dallying or lollygagging by either gender.
• Perry
• Perry
Matt Beebe
Aug 3, 2013, 6:32:10 AM8/3/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Rex, I'm dig the chronology/evolution of your bikes over the years on flickr. You can see where you began homing in on good fit with the Nishiki, then the 520 (awesome touring and camping pics!), and finally arrived at a perfect fit on the AHH. Nice Schwinn Voyageur too.
Deacon Patrick
Aug 3, 2013, 8:44:15 AM8/3/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I'm humbled by your words, Ian. Thank you. It's Catholic mysticism rather than zen -- a spirituality that delves into Christ incarnate in the clay of all creation.
With abandon,
Patrick
Cecily Walker
Aug 3, 2013, 3:30:41 PM8/3/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Can I share my bike story? Maybe it'll serve as an introduction since I'm really new to the list. It'll be pretty long...
I've always loved bicycles. I remember my very first "big girl's" bike - a red, white & blue Free Spirit girl's bike with a white banana seat and streamers on the handlebars. It was the Bicentennial year, after all. It had training wheels, but I had my dad take those off pretty early on. Thanks to his patience, and firm yet friendly discipline, I was riding without training wheels after only about a day. Thanks, Dad - wherever you are.
I moved to Vancouver, and noticed how many people rode bikes around for transportation and recreation, so I decided to get a bike for myself. went to the local bike store that specialized in race bikes and got a cold shoulder because I didn't look like a racer, but eventually they sold me a Norco hybrid. I rode that bike everywhere, even though it didn't fit me well.
A few years later, I decided that I wanted a bike with a more comfortable riding position. I went to a Trek dealer, and was again soundly ignored. The sales guy didn't ask any questions, he just directed me to the Trek Navigator bikes and pushed me out the door on a test ride. The bike was way too small for me and showed an absurd amount of seat post, but I was fond of it. I even used it to do my very first long-distance ride: a 66km overnight trip with friends. Look at all that seatpost. *shakes head*
I discovered the Cycle Chic Manifesto in 2009 or so and set out to find an elegant bike that would let me ride in real, fashionable clothes without working up a sweat. I purchased a Batavus Fryslan - an honest to goodness Dutch bike - which I absolutely loved. Little did I know that being a heavy rider on a 50 pound bike in a hilly city might not be the best recipe for success, but I loved this bike and rode it daily. I have my issues with Cycle Chic and Mikael Colville-Anderson in particular, but it revolutionized how I thought about fitting biking into my life.
I rode that bike until March 2013 when an inattentive driver clipped me at a traffic light. She just needs a new front wheel, but the distributor no longer does business with Batavus, so I'll have to get a new front wheel built from scratch.
I had a brief flirtation with wanting to get into race biking. I bought a friend's hand me down bike, but riding it twice and feeling like a circus bear on a toy bike, I gave up that dream and sold it to someone else.
Right now I'm riding this baby blue Norco City Glide that the guy who hit me bought for me. When I say there is nothing special about this bike, I mean there is *nothing* special about it.
Last year I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis. While I'm mostly OK, I know that I'll probably get worse, not better. That made me take a long, hard look at riding bikes and adjusting my thinking about what I needed.
I've long had a photo of a Betty Foy with drop bars pinned to the cork board behind my desk at work. I convinced myself that the only "real" bikes were ones with drop bars, but thanks to my diagnosis, I had to shift my thinking. I know a number of women bike bloggers who have Rivendell Bikes - some with drop bars, some without, some ride Hilsens, Hillbornes, or Betty Foys, but they all rave about the bikes. One of my colleagues rides an A. Homer Hilsen to work everyday, and someone else at the library owns a Hunqapillar, though I don't know who it belongs to.
I knew I wanted a steel bike because the cushy ride of my Dutch bike forever cured me of riding any other kind of frame. I knew I wanted something that would last as long as my body would allow me to ride, and, as shallow as it may sound, I knew that if I rode a beautiful, comfortable bike built for me, I'd be more likely to ride it farther. So I decided to pick up a little work on the side so I could finally buy a Rivendell of my own.
That leads us to where I am now: on Monday I'll be phoning Keven and putting in my order for a frame. I would've ordered it today, but I didn't know that Rivendell doesn't do frame orders on weekends. :-) I'm building the bike locally at Dream Cycle in Vancouver with very similar specs to the Riv build kit with a few slight differences. To say I'm excited is a tremendous understatement.
So, that's me. Thanks for reading, and thanks for making a n00b feel welcome.
Bonus round: here's a video of me that was shot by the really nice guys behind Vancouver Cycle Chic: http://vimeo.com/68082943
Cecily Walker
Aug 3, 2013, 3:31:37 PM8/3/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
A bicycle chronology - how neat is that. Thanks for sharing it with us, Rex.
LeahFoy
Aug 3, 2013, 10:12:25 PM8/3/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Well, you are cycle chic for sure! Such a great video and a very inspiring story. You are going to LOVE that new Riv frame - which one, is it, by the way? God bless you as you learn about RA and how to keep it at bay...
Cecily Walker
Aug 3, 2013, 10:20:26 PM8/3/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I'm getting a Betty Foy. :-)
Anne Paulson
Aug 3, 2013, 10:22:35 PM8/3/13
to rbw-owners-bunch
Cecily, I LOVE your video. That's what biking should be: just ride! I
hope you love your new Betty. What color will it be?
I know, guys are always talking about which derailleur the bike will
have, and which this, and which that, but me, I just let the bike tech
people put the bike together, and I care about whether it works and
what color it is. It sounds like your bike will be great.
hope you love your new Betty. What color will it be?
I know, guys are always talking about which derailleur the bike will
have, and which this, and which that, but me, I just let the bike tech
people put the bike together, and I care about whether it works and
what color it is. It sounds like your bike will be great.
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Christopher Chen
Aug 3, 2013, 10:29:55 PM8/3/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Now THAT is a wonderful story.
On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Cecily Walker <cecily...@gmail.com> wrote:
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"I want the kind of six pack you can't drink." -- Micah
dougP
Aug 3, 2013, 10:35:56 PM8/3/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Great story & thanks for the video. I've been to Vancouver a couple of times & always enjoyed the city. Something tells me you're going to really appreciate your Rivendell. Now comes the hard part: waiting for it to arrive!
dougP
dougP
Cecily Walker
Aug 4, 2013, 12:07:38 AM8/4/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for the welcome and kind words, Anne. The guys who did the video were really great and I had a fantastic time making it.
I thought about getting a custom colour for the Betty Foy - I was leaning toward that original Hillborne orange - but I've decided to just go with the default colour for now. Down the road I may have someone paint the head tube cream, because I think it'll look really good on the Betty Foy.
I am learning more about bike parts by osmosis and lurking, so much so that when I go to bike stores to help friends pick out bikes, salespeople look at me in awe and say "Wow, you really know your bikes." But at the same time, I'd rather go out and have a fun ride rather than talk about parts, know what I mean?
George Millwood
Aug 4, 2013, 8:48:33 AM8/4/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for the all the stories they were wonderful!
George Millwood
Aug 4, 2013, 9:01:05 AM8/4/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
One day I'll master these doggone computer things, I've only been using them for thirty seven years.
'Tanyrate, before I was so rudely interrupted I was going to say that I was a late starter. Went from beater to Trek hybrid which was great to a too small Cannondale tourer sold to me by an over eager LBS.
While riding the Cannondale, I bought some stuff off Rivendell. A Brooks, a seat post, some bars, a saddlebag, a Technomic, another set of bars, some Nitto bottle holders, a different stem, another set of bars, bar tape, a seat post and finally an Atlantis frame. Then I found a great LBS who built me a splendid set of wheels and lately I went to Rivendell for another stem, a lugged seat post, a new derailleur, cluster, chain and silver bar ends. The only bit let from the Cannondale is the brakes and I'm saving for a set of Pauls.
The Cannondale frame is hanging from the trellis on my mother in law back verandah. One day I'll sell it to raise some cash so I can go bananas on the Rivendell website shop.
George (Atlantis No 93) Wollongong Australia
Philip Williamson
Aug 4, 2013, 2:25:41 PM8/4/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I love that video. Bikes and libraries for the win!
The Betty Foy blue is a real winner, I think.
The Betty Foy blue is a real winner, I think.
Philip
www.biketinker.com
DianeB
Aug 5, 2013, 12:14:58 AM8/5/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Leah and Cecily,
Thank you for the wonderful and thoughtful posts. I'm trying to convince my partner to get a Betty, but she just can't get past the $3k. Yet. It's been useful for me to read each of your stories about the different bikes you've ridden. I'll be patient; perhaps as she rides more, she'll find herself wanting a better bike.
I was an avid recreational cyclist in my 20's and early 30's and spent hours on my Trek Antelope riding the miles and miles of paved and unpaved paths in the metro area. When I couldn't find a handlebar set up that would relieve the pressure on my hands, I had to give up cycling. I visited a number of stores here in Denver, but Denver in the 90's was all about racing or MTB's with flat-ish bars and most shops here were clearly in one tribe or the other. Staff in roadie shops would barely give me the time of day. If I'd had access to some Albatross or Bosco type bars, I'd probably still have that Trek! I tried riding one of those comfort bikes. Good grief, what a terrible bike!
I quit riding for several years but kept hoping I'd find some answer. One day, I recalled being in a National Park somewhere, (I don't recall which one) and I remembered seeing a couple on some pretty strange looking long bikes loaded with touring gear. I figured out they were called recumbent bikes, finally found a *small* local dealer, test rode an Easy Racer, couldn't afford it, but did buy a similar bent from another company. I've had four bents. Still have two, though the Rans V2 needs to go on Craiglist. They're incredibly comfortable and I enjoy riding them but I've always, always missed the agility of an upright bike, being able to steer with your hips, and making almost 90 degree turns. And, other than some Dutch low racers, I've never thought they were attractive.
I've known about RBW for several years and have spent way too much time on their website wishing I could ride a diamond frame bike. If I can, it's going to be my 47cm AHH with Albatross bars. Or the Boscos if the Albas don't work. I ordered it 3 weeks ago, and I'm hoping to get that UPS email soon!
Cecily Walker
Aug 5, 2013, 1:26:49 AM8/5/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Diane, it took me 4 years to finally get over the Rivendell sticker shock. I hope your partner will come to a similar conclusion.
I hope you'll post lots of photos of your AHH and ride reports as well.
Cheers,
Cecily
LeahFoy
Aug 5, 2013, 11:31:04 AM8/5/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Well, it's Monday. Is anyone else wondering if Cecily and Keven have been on the phone? Tell us how it goes/went, Cecily! I hope they've got the right size frame available so you don't have to wait! I remember ordering my Betty and Keven had to scrounge around the warehouse (or wherever it is that they keep the frames) to see if there was a 55. I nearly passed out when he called back to say he had found just the one! A week later the bike was built - I hope it goes as fast for you.
Leah
Leah
Anne Paulson
Aug 5, 2013, 11:33:06 AM8/5/13
to rbw-owners-bunch
It's Monday at 8:30 am. I don't even think Riv is open yet.
On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:31 AM, LeahFoy <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, it's Monday. Is anyone else wondering if Cecily and Keven have been on the phone? Tell us how it goes/went, Cecily! I hope they've got the right size frame available so you don't have to wait! I remember ordering my Betty and Keven had to scrounge around the warehouse (or wherever it is that they keep the frames) to see if there was a 55. I nearly passed out when he called back to say he had found just the one! A week later the bike was built - I hope it goes as fast for you.
> Leah
>
On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 8:31 AM, LeahFoy <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, it's Monday. Is anyone else wondering if Cecily and Keven have been on the phone? Tell us how it goes/went, Cecily! I hope they've got the right size frame available so you don't have to wait! I remember ordering my Betty and Keven had to scrounge around the warehouse (or wherever it is that they keep the frames) to see if there was a 55. I nearly passed out when he called back to say he had found just the one! A week later the bike was built - I hope it goes as fast for you.
> Leah
>
Cecily Walker
Aug 5, 2013, 2:00:41 PM8/5/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I just ordered it! It could be here by the end of the week or early next week.
dougP
Aug 5, 2013, 4:33:16 PM8/5/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Bike party time in Vancouver, coming right up. Congratulations!
dougP
dougP
Mike Schiller
Aug 5, 2013, 5:19:20 PM8/5/13
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Tom, I certainly agree that Pacific Cycles is the best shop in San Diego County and the only one I go to. I'm lucky and only live about 7 miles away along the beautiful Coast highway.
~mike
Carlsbad Ca.
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