Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[drew]

so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said "30lb weight limit" (it was in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the kickstand's sturdiness. 

back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to me. and i read this on the rivendell site "NOTE: Don't bolt these on to Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate."

now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the product page with that warning,  HERE , clearly shows it bolted directly to the kickstand plate. 

anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate on top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plate>air>kickstand plate>kickstand? seems weird to me.

more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they really like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super smooth/flat ground. 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/14/2015 05:44 PM, drew wrote:

i read this on the rivendell site "NOTE: Don't bolt these on to Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate."

now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate?

Sounds like that's exactly what it means.

that would seem to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.

 also, the product page with that warning,  HERE , clearly shows it bolted directly to the kickstand plate.

That's not what it looks like to me.  The Pletscher bracket is on top of the chain stays (with some kind of bumper between the top plate and the stays) and the "kickstand plate," if it's anything like the one I have on one or two other bikes, is level with the center of the stays, as shown here:

anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate on top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plate>air>kickstand plate>kickstand? seems weird to me.

Exactly what they're saying.   And I'll bet they base that warning on experience.

[Michael Hechmer]

Drew, sorry to read about your problem and your frustration.  I'm not sure I can answer your precise question, but.... We have the two legged kickstand on our tandem, which weighs well over 40lbs.  It works fine, unless one leg hits land that is much softer than the other.  I haven't even bothered to cut it, so my rear wheel sits about 3" off the ground.  Our bike doesn't have a plate, so I use the provided top clamp.  After a year plus of use the k-stand loosened enough to get out of alignment and forced me to track down the noise it was making nicking spokes.  Not good but an immediate response minimized any damage.

My wife has a single through the kickplate on her Betty, and that also woks fine.  I can't think why the plate wouldn't work with a dbl, other than bolt length.  Is there some obstacle to using the upper half of the clamp and the plate that's not obvious until you try it?  Or have you lost track of the part? Looking at the web pictures suggests that using the top piece and going through the braise on should work for you.

Goodluck.

Michael

[shawn m.]

I sure wish they'd posted that warning about the double-leggers not using the kickstand plate BEFORE my double-legger ruined the kickstand plate on my hunqapillar! Grr. Now, I don't have a kickstand at all...

[drew]

hey steve, 

here are the photos i was referencing that show the kickstand attached directly to the plate, which is what it seems they are saying not to do... on the same page

also, i think the photo you put in with the top plate is on a bike without a kickstand plate (you can see the bolt going directly into the kickstand without passing through a bike mounted plate. on This Page you can see an expanded version of the photo you included, and it is under a paragraph about how to attach the stand to a bike without a plate), and if that is the case, you would of course need to use the top plate. im just saying, that i dont see a picture of the kickstand attached in the way they seem to be saying to attach it, and i see a few showing it in the way it seems like they are saying NOT to attach it. 

Michael, glad to hear yours is working. im probably thinking too much about mine, and itll probably not cause any issues. currently i have the kickstand attached like the above photos. since i was on the site, i was more just curious about what the purpose of a kickstand plate is, if you have to still clamp down on the chainstays. i still have the top plate, and can do it, it just looks better, and seems better to use the built in plate... was my thinking

[ted]

Sounds very vexing, sorry it happened to you. Could you explain in more detail what the double-legger did to the kickstand plate on your Hunqapillar?

[Steve Palincsar]

The purpose of a kickstand plate is to support a kickstand.  Evidently experience has shown them that it won't properly support a 2-legged kickstand.   Using the built-in plate is fine -- I'm pretty sure I'm using a built-in plate with a 2-legged kick stand on my Kogswell P/R Porteur -- but I don't use it in such a way as to over-stress the plate.  We've seen at least one testimonial (from Shawn) about what can happen when you do that and it all goes pear-shaped.  

The way I see it, you have two choices: do it the way they say to do it, even though it doesn't seem to make much sense; or, do it the way it seems sensible to you and take your chances.  Or, as someone in a movie once put it, "You've got to ask yourself one question, 'Do I feel lucky?'  Well, do ya?"

[Patrick Moore]

If a kickstand plate won't support a 2-leg kickstand, it is badly designed. I installed a VO 2-leg stand on my briefly owned Sam Hill, and saw no problem or intimation of a problem; have others used 2-legs on Sam Hills?

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[Steve Palincsar]

I'll bet it has to do with twisting forces if and when the bike falls
over with a load. As Shawn said, "I sure wish they'd posted that

warning about the double-leggers not using the kickstand plate BEFORE my
double-legger ruined the kickstand plate on my hunqapillar! Grr. Now, I
don't have a kickstand at all..."

[WETH]

Drew,
I use one on my Surly LHT with sandwich-no kickstand plate on an LHT. It has supported a good 50lbs of weight with no problems while the bike was fully loaded on tour. I do hear it creak on occasion when used with a heavy load. My only other complaints are front wheel flop and issues of uneven terrain as Michael mentioned. All in all it works better for me than a traditional kickstand when the bike is fully loaded.
Best wishes,
Erl

[cyclotourist]

I have a double kicker sandwich on my tandem and my Quickbeam, but
have it attached to a plate on my wife's Glorius... I was trying to
protect the chainstay paint, but might have to revisit this set up!
Any pics or further description, Shawn?

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"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Edwin W]

Don't want to jinx myself, but I've had my double legged on my Sam's plate for 4000 miles or so. Not too many loaded (unless you call my 35+ pound bike loaded) miles, but I often use it with my work pannier or a kid seat on the back. Maybe I'll be a bit more careful going forward.

Living on the edge,

Edwin

[hangtownmatt]

I would think a single legger would inflict more twisting than a double legger.

[hangtownmatt]

Last time I checked Surly's website they specifically said NOT to use kickstands on their chainstays.

[Steve Palincsar]

I guess we're all going to have to wait until someone from Rivendell explains the cautionary note.

[WETH]

Yes, Surly does say not to use one.

[Tom Harrop]

My 68 cm Bombadil didn't like having a two-leg stand attached to the plate. It was never that stable, the stand kept coming loose and the plate ended up deformed.

On the other hand my better half has one attached to the plate on her 54 cm Homer and it's fine (four years, no problems). There is really not much difference in bike weight, so maybe the size of the frame could be a factor? Or wheel size?

Personally I prefer the rear-chainstay single-leggers to centre-mount two leggers. I tried one of the Pletscher ones that mount in the rear triangle and it was super stable, but unfortunately my heel hits the mounting bracket. I currently have one of the Hebies that attaches via the rear wheel QR, it's OK but not great. I am thinking I would like to have an attachment plate welded onto the left chainstay for the Pletscher "direct mount" models at some stage.

[john muhl]

My often loaded Atlantis has a deformed kickstand plate due to the double-legger but the never loaded with more than a few pounds Betty Foy plate is still like new after a couple of years of DL kickstand usage. Seems like sound advice they've added to the site; had I been advised likewise my Atlantis probably wouldn't have a deformed kickstand plate today.

[Kieran J]

In what way are the plates deforming? Bent or bulged up or something? Interested to know more.

Is it a matter of Riv bikes having their plates enhanced to be made more resiliant to heavier stresses then? Would a thicker reinforcement be their solution to this?

KJ

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 5:44:00 PM UTC-4, drew wrote:

[Ginz]

I have an unused plestcher double legger if anyone wants to experiment...

[Patrick Moore]

Frankly, having tried Pletscher and VO 2-leg stands, as well as the usual Greenfeld bb stand, I've found left rear dropout stands most effective at holding up a bike under assymetrical rear loads, even with 20 lb in the pannier on the stand-side and none on the opposite. 

That said, I remember someone on some list pointing to a specialist center-mount 2-leg stand with much wider legs than those of the Pletscher and VO stands, that apparently was much more apt to support assymetrical rear loads -- perhaps someone knows what this is?

That said again, I can't see the point of a kickstand plate that doesn't support any kind of stand you bolt to it. My Sam Hill was not harmed by the VO stand I bolted to it, for what that's worth.

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Ginz <the...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have an unused plestcher double legger if anyone wants to experiment...

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[Kainalu]

I use the top plated double legger on my Hillborne and have been carelessly overloading it for 3+ years. No problems ever but I should have a closer look (not having examined the chainstays since I installed the kickstand I'm a bit nervous to, I'll let you know...)
-Kai

[Tom Harrop]

Patrick, I think you may be referring to the Ursus Jumbo. I tried it, it was OK but it kept coming loose. Anyway, I'm with you on the left rear dropout stands, as I said—I found it much better particularly when loading up a stuffed saddlesack large.

[shawn m.]

I used a Pletscher double-legger on my Hunqapillar. This bike is my daily rider, commuter, go everywhere bike; touring, camping, all of it. It was mounted directly to the kickstand plate with the shorty bolt I got from Rivendell. After a friend's partner was left permanently disabled by a collapsing front fender, I decided to adjust my fender lines to insure as much clearance as possible. While remounting the rear fender, I noticed that the fender mount that is affixed to the kickstand plate was distorted, leading me to discover that the entire kickstand plate was distorted, bowing down in the middle to an unsettling degree. I unshipped the kick stand and flipped the bike over. The kickstand plate had started to tear away from the chainstays. Pretty distressing. I really liked the utility of the double-legged kickstand, but I would NEVER have bought it and installed it if there had been some warning against doing so. So now I have a damaged frame and no kickstand, which frankly sucks. I tidied up the exposed metal with some clear nail polish pending the imaginary date in the future that I can afford to have the damage repaired and the frame repainted. I ran the double-legger for less than three years. Boo.

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 2:44:00 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:

[shawn m.]

I meant to say, also, that it had never fallen over while on the kickstand.

[cyclotourist]

Double kicker coming off wife's Glorius in 3... 2...

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[hangtownmatt]

Here is Surly's position on kickstands for their most robust touring frame:
  
http://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew/kickstands_on_long_haul_truckers

Kind of interesting,

Matt

[hangtownmatt]

Here is a Surly LHT with a cracked chainstay right about where a kickstand plate on a Rivendell would be mounted.  Granted this bike does have some miles and has been on the road a while, but he doesn't use a kickstand and judging from his experience I'd say your lucky if all that happens is the kickstand plate deforms.  What I've derived from all this is that chainstays are subject to a lot more stress than we realize and are subject to failure.

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=tS&page_id=432317&v=S

By the way - this is a pretty entertaining blog.  Currently he's in Austrailia and it's pretty boring, but if you follow from the beginning it's entertaining.  I think so anyway.

Matt

[drew]

I suppose my thinking and now disappointment came from the idea that a kickstand plate negated crushing or over flexing chainstays. That it solved that problem. I agree with patrick, that I don't know what the purpose of a kickstand plate is, if you can't put a dbl leg one one it. Presumably the dbl leg would apply a more even force than a single leg, right? Less bending? I also have to think that this was riv's thinking too, since, despite the current/not publicized warning, their pictures still show the stand being attached to the plate directly, and the warning is relatively new...I think. Mine is still attached directly to the plate, and I'm a little bit afraid to flip the bike over to see how it looks. mine has fallen at least a couple times.
Anyway, what's the solution. Is a stand mounted to the chainstays on a weighted bike just not a good idea? Is the current plate that is being used not up to the task or being attached in an insufficient manner? Part of me wonders how adding the top plate and clamping down on the chainstays while also going thru the kickstand plate makes this problem better. Wouldn't that just be over stressing a more key area of the bike than just a plate? I'm not sure I want to put the kind of force that can snap a welded on steel plate directly onto my chainstays. i guess this goes back to surlys stance on the matter

[WETH]

Drew,
So sorry to learn if your experience. A cautionary tale for us all.
Matt,
Interestly, after warning against sandwich clamping kickstands, Surly recommends a double legged as preferable to single:
"We recommend the use of two leg kickstands such as the Pletscher. Such a design helps reduce the potential for chainstay flex compared to that which a loaded bike leaning on a kickstand single leg can impose. And because of the extra leg and the placement, they tend to be the most stable in our experience."
I will check my LHT regularly but for now will leave the pletcsher installed, and I will continue to leave my Rivs without a kickstand!
-Erl

[Steven Sweedler]

Here is a picture of my gf's LHT with a rear mount kickstand. Needless to say she is not using the disc brake or the spoke holder. I have had the same kickstand on my Thorn for two years and like it alot. Steve, Victoriaville, Quebec

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[Patrick Moore]

My own practice with kickstands is to put them on beaters and leave them off "nice" bikes; the Sam Hill was somewhat in between. With the former, I've happily "indented" the stays where the clamps bite down and thought that it helped keeps the stand from rotating. That said, I've never had a problem (besides denting the stays) with a kickstand mount damaging a tube, and this after several years of loading and careless use; all of which says something about the strength of thick wall, pot metal frames.

Of course, I've also cheerfully more than once used a hammer to reshape the right chainstay to accommodate a crankset I wanted to use.

[Lungimsam]

1. Perhaps integration is the key.

A bike that has a kickstand built into the frame in such a way that it doesn't damage anything to have the kickstand used with or without the bike loaded up to 100 lbs.

Since this means tourers, I don't think the consumers would mind a built in k-stand since they are planning to load the bike up anyway.

Other, non-touring specific models could just have regular plates for one leggers.

2. Freddie Hoffman rides Waterfords with a 100lb load on his bike, if I remember right. I wonder what he does for kickstands.

 

[Wayne Naha]

Shawn, have you contacted Riv about this?  What was their response?

[john muhl]

On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 11:02:01 AM UTC-5, Lungimsam wrote:

2. Freddie Hoffman rides Waterfords with a 100lb load on his bike, if I remember right. I wonder what he does for kickstands.

I've been using a click stand <http://www.click-stand.com/> since removing the Pletscher and like it.

[hangtownmatt]

Here are my latest thoughts:

We are looking at this wrong.  Although damage could happen from overloading and/or falling over when the kickstand is deployed, I think the real issue is simply the weight of the double-legger itself.  It weighs 25.6 oz, whereas, the single only 9.2 oz.  The double-legger weighs almost three times as much.  I think the damage described in this thread is related to the kickstand plate supporting the weight of the double-legger while riding; not while parked and sitting stationary.  And this is why Rivendell is now warning us to use the top support plate.  It takes the burden of supporting the weight while riding off the plate and spreads it across the top of the two chainstays.

Furthermore, the kickstand plate is an integral part of the frame.  If you look at any other bicycle you will see a cross member of some sort in place of a plate.  Theoretically, the plate may be stronger because it is wider but that is beside the point.  Some kind of cross member support is necessary in this location.  If the kickstand plate were to become detached from one of my chainstay's I would consider the frame broken and would not continue to ride until it was fixed.  And, if the kickstand plate was deformed I would think the frame could be considered bent, and if nothing else out of alignment.

These are just my thoughts.  Hopefully Riv will share theirs.

Matt

[bert...@gmail.com]

Actually, I e read that the chai stay bridge doesn't have a structural function.

Sent from my iPhone

[Minh]

Hmm I think it's time to lighten my Sam and take off the kickstand.

[Justin August]

I've never been impressed with the stability of any chain stay/plate located kickstands, especially their tendency to have the fixing bolt loosen over time. Knowing that it could destroy a frame in some way makes me double down on this feeling.

-J

On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 5:03:18 PM UTC-7, Lungimsam wrote:

Well if you guys would stop riding off with the two letters open for usual effect...

[Will]

This has been an interesting discussion.

I am wondering if Riv's preferences for large seat bags exerabates the kickstand problems. Large seat bags put cargo weight high and slightly behind the kickstand strut (when parked), so that the kickstand strut doesn't directly support the weight. Instead, the frame bears the weight and that stresses the kickstand plate rather than the strut-to-ground support plan.

I use a low rail rack and panniers that place cargo weight over the rear axle. I do not expect to have kickstand problems.

[Kieran J]

What about a double-legger for strictly front-loading, i.e., on a porteur?

If the main carrying weight of the bike is on the front, and the front wheel is always supporting it by virtue of never leaving the ground, would a plate-mounted kickstand that elevates the rear wheel and only supports the bike's weight (or a good chunk of it) be a more suitable application of the design?

KJ

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Which rear mount kickstand are you using?

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[Montclair BobbyB]

Aside from the convenience of a "kick" stand, I am beginning to like kick stands less and less. I no longer trust them (especially on a loaded bike) to do their job without causing undue stress on a frame. For me, it's lean it or lay it down.

I thought the "Flickstand" was a novel idea, and helped to keep a bike from rolling AND made it easier to lean a bike. I still hold out hope that there's a slightly sturdier version somewhere out there, but I always thought it was a brilliant concept.

And the basic premise for another alternative, the "Clickstand" tent-pole design makes sense for heavier loads less the convenience factor of a kickstand.

I'm convinced there's a better mousetrap out there folks...

[Patrick Moore]

An easy, convenient alternative to a Flickstand, which doesn't work with fenders, is a short, stout rubber band around your front brake lever.

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[Kieran J]

A 1" section of an old inner tube works too!

KJ

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Seems to me that the load on a 2-legger might be much less on a front load bike like the P/R than on the typical Riv bike

 

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 9:10 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

 

The purpose of a kickstand plate is to support a kickstand.  Evidently experience has shown them that it won't properly support a 2-legged kickstand.   Using the built-in plate is fine -- I'm pretty sure I'm using a built-in plate with a 2-legged kick stand on my Kogswell P/R Porteur -- but I don't use it in such a way as to over-stress the plate.  We've seen at least one testimonial (from Shawn) about what can happen when you do that and it all goes pear-shaped.  

The way I see it, you have two choices: do it the way they say to do it, even though it doesn't seem to make much sense; or, do it the way it seems sensible to you and take your chances.  Or, as someone in a movie once put it, "You've got to ask yourself one question, 'Do I feel lucky?'  Well, do ya?"

On 08/14/2015 07:42 PM, drew wrote:

hey steve, 

here are the photos i was referencing that show the kickstand attached directly to the plate, which is what it seems they are saying not to do... on the same page

 

also, i think the photo you put in with the top plate is on a bike without a kickstand plate (you can see the bolt going directly into the kickstand without passing through a bike mounted plate. on This Page you can see an expanded version of the photo you included, and it is under a paragraph about how to attach the stand to a bike without a plate), and if that is the case, you would of course need to use the top plate. im just saying, that i dont see a picture of the kickstand attached in the way they seem to be saying to attach it, and i see a few showing it in the way it seems like they are saying NOT to attach it. 

 

Michael, glad to hear yours is working. im probably thinking too much about mine, and itll probably not cause any issues. currently i have the kickstand attached like the above photos. since i was on the site, i was more just curious about what the purpose of a kickstand plate is, if you have to still clamp down on the chainstays. i still have the top plate, and can do it, it just looks better, and seems better to use the built in plate... was my thinking

 

 

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[Steve Palincsar]

I would expect so.

[Montclair BobbyB]

Patrick: Flickstand does 2 things: keeps the wheel from rotating or steering (flopping). If you can get a rubber band to do both I would be "dually" impressed...

Bobby "maybe I don't know rubber bands" Birmingham

[Bill Lindsay]

A velcro legband also makes an excellent parking brake, wrapped tight around the brakelever

An Arno Strap or Irish strap makes an excellent "Flopper Stopper" wrapped tight around the downtube and front wheel  

[M D Smith]

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 1:06:02 PM UTC-4, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

Patrick: Flickstand does 2 things: keeps the wheel from rotating or steering (flopping). If you can get a rubber band to do both I would be "dually" impressed...

Bobby "maybe I don't know rubber bands" Birmingham

To which I can't help but reply:

 

Funny, I was going to mention this method before I saw your challenge to be impressed.

This method works well.  It's not as great with a really loaded bike, but something like an old toe clip works better than a Kickstand:




Just not as quick or light as the rubber band method (which I first saw at a bike shop, to keep their floor stock under control, flop-wise...)  I keep an extra strap on my bike (usually looped around the handlebar, near the stem) just for this purpose.  An irish strap would work, as well.  The strap doubles as a pants-cuff-retainer.  Never do you need both at the same time...  I guess you could also use a high quality reflective velcro retainer, two birds with one stone.

I've always thought it was a bit ridiculous when Rivendell decided it was necessary to put kickstand plates on their bikes in the first place.  I see them as a solution (and a heavier, clunkier-looking, less than elegant solution at that) to a problem that doesn't exist.  In the ten years I've owned my All 'rounder (including a multi-month tour) I never missed not having one.  I can remember being in a position where I couldn't find something to lean my bike against and having to rest it down only a very few times.  And many of those were on beach sand, where a kickstand wouldn't work anyway.  That's just my personal experience, though.  But I've never, ever, felt I needed one.

Cheers- Mike in Bklyn, NY

[M D Smith]

Sorry!!!

"but something like an old toe clip works better than a Kickstand:"

Should read "Flickstand". Stupid auto correct!!!!

-Mike

[ascpgh]

I like toe straps, I keep a couple on the bike all the time. Through the front wheel and around the down tube makes the bike both rigid and non-rolling. Perfect for an incidental lean with more than incidental stability.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[cyclotourist]

I love kickstands. My favorite bike accessory. Two legger, one legger,
rear triangle, whatever. Just great.

BTW, a short piece of fuel line wedged into the brake lever works
great to keep the brake on when parking.

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Mike Shaljian]

Shoving in with a FS offer: I have a brand new Pletscher Twin-Legger (silver) kickstand that I bought from Rivendell months ago for my mountain bike. It turns out it's better to buy a top tube protector and lean those against things. $35 shipped anywhere in the conterminous US. Message me off the list if you're interested. -- Mike

[Tom Virgil]

Minh,

Exactly what I did on Sam and the Boulder.  Gone.  Not missing them.

~Tom

[drew]

update: took mine off the 1 yr old hunqapillar which is almost exclusively used for loaded touring (though mostly front loaded).  the kickstand plate is definitely not flat like it used to be, but the edges seem to be attached to the chainstays fine.  happy i removed it before it started pulling away. 

[Lungimsam]

Wonder if single leggers do this to frames, too.

[Kieran J]

This web special Cheviot's description bears mention of a "stout plate". So I guess there's more than one plate in use across the Riv model range?
The message indicates reassures that DL kickstands are safe to use, so maybe they are not danger absolute after all.

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/wsf-155.htm

KJ

[Will @ Riv]

Basically it's this, and I'm sorry we've been unclear about it: We have two kickstand plates, a stout one with almost a quarter inch thick steel and a lighter one that is about as thick as a nickel. Most recent Taiwanese frames have the stout plates, and most Waterford-built frames have the thinner plates, but there's probably some overlap somewhere. You can bolt a double legger directly to a thick plate and not worry about it, but the heavy weight and super strong spring of the double will sometimes slowly pry the thin plates off towards the bottom bracket shell, so if you have one of those and you want to use a double, use the sandwich hardware and run the long bolt through the hole in the plate to the kickstand. You can (and maybe should) do that on the stout plates too if you want to be extra safe. Singles are what the plates were designed around, and those are fine on either plate, always.

It's a rare problem, but one we figured out a little late in the game, so if it's happening to you please give us a call and we'll do our absolute best to help you. Talk to me or Keven.

-Will

[Woody Peterson]

I front-load my bike, so simulated a rear load and yeah, I can imagine the angled forces that could affect the plate. Under a front load, though, everything's pretty level and stacked.

Also, I agree with the OP; I bought my Pletcher at Riv's recommendation, but haven't found it to be wildly better. In fact, here's a more analytical look as to why it might be worse:

http://www.tamiasoutside.com/2009/04/13/pletscher/

I find that the two-legger is slightly better, mostly because I can sink the legs into soft dirt and it becomes almost un-tippable. Other than that, one leg isn't that bad (or maybe better).

[Larry H]

I've had a double leg attached to the plate on my Sam Hillborne since 2012.  It's been on and off a few times with no damage noted.  Granted, I do not heavily load the bike for touring.  I run a trunk sack in the rear with maybe 5 pounds at the most.  This does cause the bike to rest on the rear tire with the kickstand down.

Another point that no one seems to have mentioned is that the double leg does not fit on the plate out of the box.  Mine needed to have quite a bit of material filed off just to fit the stand.  Thus, I doubt that the installed weight is the same as the factory weight.  I don't see the weight of the kickstand being a factor in deforming the plate.  It has to be the side to side forces that would cause damage.

At this point, I may remount per Riv's new recommendation with the top plate and plastic chainstay protectors.

[Tim Petersen]

My Sammy has a plate bent into a shallow U which captures the head of the kickstand which prevents rotation under load. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 16, 2015, at 11:02 AM, Lungimsam <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

1. Perhaps integration is the key.

A bike that has a kickstand built into the frame in such a way that it doesn't damage anything to have the kickstand used with or without the bike loaded up to 100 lbs.

Since this means tourers, I don't think the consumers would mind a built in k-stand since they are planning to load the bike up anyway.

Other, non-touring specific models could just have regular plates for one leggers.

2. Freddie Hoffman rides Waterfords with a 100lb load on his bike, if I remember right. I wonder what he does for kickstands.

 

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[tim petersen]

My story is exactly as yours except 4 years on my carelessly overloaded Sam H with the same kickstand setup.  So I'm nervous too.  Tim Petersen

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 3:27 PM, Kainalu <kaivi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I use the top plated double legger on my Hillborne and have been carelessly overloading it for 3+ years. No problems ever but I should have a closer look (not having examined the chainstays since I installed the kickstand I'm a bit nervous to, I'll let you know...)
-Kai

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[William deRosset]

That's the same spot I've seen two other (heavily-used, but not old) Surlys crack. Drive-side, just behind the  chainstay bridge. Both replaced under warranty without a lot of grief.

In a related note, Chainstays seem to be where heavily-used bikes die (eventually). It is a highly-stressed part, though the big-mile bikes that die due to old age ordinarily will break out near the dropout...

Best,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[Kainalu]

Top plated double has caused no problems with my unstout plated Waterfordborne Sam, glad I didn't have a short bolt handy at the time I was installing it. I removed it anyways. So far I don't miss it, and having it gone has given me the idea I should seek more stumps to jump when unloaded/featheryish.
-Kai

[Alistair Spence]

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 12:29:42 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

Frankly, having tried Pletscher and VO 2-leg stands, as well as the usual Greenfeld bb stand, I've found left rear dropout stands most effective at holding up a bike under assymetrical rear loads, even with 20 lb in the pannier on the stand-side and none on the opposite. 

That said, I remember someone on some list pointing to a specialist center-mount 2-leg stand with much wider legs than those of the Pletscher and VO stands, that apparently was much more apt to support assymetrical rear loads -- perhaps someone knows what this is?

Greetings, 

I was pointed to this thread from the IBob list. I haven't checked out the RBW list for some years, but good to see a lot of familiar names here. Anyway, in trying to answer Patrick's question abvove, my guess would be the Ursus centerstand. I've been using one for 4 years or so, on my porteur bike. That bike gets loaded up quite heavily at times (40 - 45lbs on the front rack, up to 130lbs or so in the trailer). The stand has had no problem in standing up to it all and is still going strong. A whiff of thread locker on the mounting bolt stopped loosening issues that cropped up every six months or so. The kickstand is mounted to a 1/8" thick plate that I brazed to the underside of the chainstays.

Some Flickr links to give you an idea of the setup,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncancycles/6251271273/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncancycles/6251271273/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncancycles/6251270869/in/dateposted-public/

The Ursus stand replaced a two legged Pletscher stand, which was proving to be unsatisfactory in terms of it's stability. Marked improvement, the Ursus is way more stable, and the bike no longer gets torqued over onto the ground by a heavily laden trailer.

My 2 cents,

Alistair Spence,

Seattle, WA.

[Patrick Moore]

Has anyone used one of these? Standard equipment, or used to be, on Indian utility bikes. One of the first things I did as a boy when I got my Hero was to remove the bloody thing; it must have weighed 7 lb. Typical cruising noise, beside the whirr of the chain and hum of the tires, was the light clanking sound of the raised stand bouncing up and down against the spring pressure. (My hero had a saddle like that in the photo, but only a single tt.)

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Alistair Spence <alspe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was pointed to this thread from the IBob list. I haven't checked out the RBW list for some years, but good to see a lot of familiar names here. Anyway, in trying to answer Patrick's question abvove, my guess would be the Ursus centerstand. I've been using one for 4 years or so, on my porteur bike. That bike gets loaded up quite heavily at times (40 - 45lbs on the front rack, up to 130lbs or so in the trailer). The stand has had no problem in standing up to it all and is still going strong. A whiff of thread locker on the mounting bolt stopped loosening issues that cropped up every six months or so. The kickstand is mounted to a 1/8" thick plate that I brazed to the underside of the chainstays.

Some Flickr links to give you an idea of the setup,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncancycles/6251271273/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncancycles/6251271273/in/dateposted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncancycles/6251270869/in/dateposted-public/

The Ursus stand replaced a two legged Pletscher stand, which was proving to be unsatisfactory in terms of it's stability. Marked improvement, the Ursus is way more stable, and the bike no longer gets torqued over onto the ground by a heavily laden trailer.

My 2 cents,

Alistair Spence,

Seattle, WA.

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[Lungimsam]

My Father-in-law had that kinda kickstand back in China.

I don't think I'd like the weight of that kstand either.

China's got great ideas for baby seats and umbrella holders, too.

But in Canton China, seems like people are just cruising to work/school. Nobody cares about average speeds and I don't think there are many, if any, hills to climb in Guangzhou, China!!! They don't like helmets, either!! Too hot!!! Everything over there is pure function. They even ride their bikes when they are soooooo rusted!! You couldn't go fast if you tried in Canton - too crowded and no one seems to observe any kind of right-of-way or traffic laws, except the cars who have to stop at red lights.

No one has to worry about parts failing on 30+ mile descents, like we do here in the States. They are cruising flat in crowded traffic at 10mph with bike shops on every corner, so to speak!

[hangtownmatt]

Upon visual inspection of my 2012 Sam Hillborne and my wife's 2012 Betty Foy, both Taiwanese built, both appear to have the "unstout" plate.  Not a term I ever thought would ever be associated with anything Rivendell.

Before removing my single legged kickstand, I experimented this week and pretended it wasn't there.  What I found is that kickstands are very very convenient.  It'll take a little getting use to, especially loading and unloading, but the worse was on the two occasions I took my bike into a business.  Neither of these places mind me bringing the bike inside but they prefer I leave the bike at Customer Service and not wheel it around the store.  On both occasions I deployed the kickstand because I felt bad leaning it up against their counter, wall, display etc. and possibly damaging something.  Funny thing is I've been riding bikes my whole life and other than briefly decades ago never had a kickstand.  Now I'm not sure I can live without it.  As of now my plan is to remove the kickstand but I think I'll continue to experiment a bit more.

Matt

[Surlyprof]

I double checked my Hillborne after reading this thread.  I hadn't caught that warning when I replaced my single with a double and this thread made me nervous.  Mine is a 2012 and has the u-section plate that Tim referred to.  It is the thinner metal but the u-section seats the kickstand nicely.  Dug through the parts drawers and found the chainstay mounting bracket that came with the stand.  It was easily installed and I am no longer nervous.  Thanks for bringing this up.

John

[hangtownmatt]

It looks like the double legger is no longer available through Riv's web site.  Not out of stock but non-existent.  Did I miss something?

[Matthew J]

Apparently when Riv is temporarily out of items it is pulling the item page altogether with plans to return when merchandise is back in stock.  At least that was the consensus when I recently started a thread on the missing MUSA Pants ad.  Given the double leg kickstands come from Switzerland, I imagine there is a definite buy window.  When Riv gets more the ad comes back.

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I don't know... King Iris cages are currently out of stock, and still are shown on the site. 

They only say out of stock when you attempt to put one in your cart.

[Matthew J]

That would make sense.  But a fellow RBWer made hay about laughing at my No More MUSA Pants thread claiming they will be back in stock later.  

[cyclotourist]

Couldn't tell you that one! :-)

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[Minh]

Well I may have one to sell if you really want one.

[Dave Brandt]

I recently tore part of the weld an in the direction that would have been from putting it up into the riding position.
I have used them on several bikes and I had one directly mounted to the kickstand plate on my Saga. On my last tour I noticed some fender rub that I have never had before. When I got home I discovered the worse, it had pulled a small amount of the plate off the frame, which appears to have torn the weld off the frame. I'm unsure if it did any permanent structural damage but I will probably replace a frame I loved.
My excuse to get a new Rivendell touring frame soon.
I personally will never use another double again, it's just not worth the risk.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/06/2015 07:38 AM, Dave Brandt wrote:
> I recently tore part of the weld an in the direction that would have been from putting it up into the riding position.
> I have used them on several bikes and I had one directly mounted to the kickstand plate on my Saga. On my last tour I noticed some fender rub that I have never had before. When I got home I discovered the worse, it had pulled a small amount of the plate off the frame, which appears to have torn the weld off the frame. I'm unsure if it did any permanent structural damage but I will probably replace a frame I loved.
> My excuse to get a new Rivendell touring frame soon.

You don't think it might be worth getting a frame builder to evaluate
the damage?

> I personally will never use another double again, it's just not worth the risk.
>

Didn't Rivendell include on its web site a way in which you could safely
use a double?

[Dave Brandt]

I keep my bikes pretty spotless and I was considering an Appaloosa when they come out. Now it helps me make my mind up to swap the parts over and donate the frame. Hopefully it is superficial but I won't trust it and if it does need repair I would need to get it repainted, making that frame really not worth it to me.