To me, if we are acting as the hands of Gd in the Taharah room, we are acting as his/her agent outside of it in our Chevra Kadisha roll. I've seen what other religions and cultures do; some are very similar to ours while others might even seem barbaric. If you must ask "who are we to ______?". then to me the simple answer is that we are Jews and, as such, we have an obligation to follow our ways, our rituals, our teachings. It's one thing to know about, understand and acknowledge other ways but, IMHO, it doesn't mean we emulate them, adopt them, incorporate them and tacitly engage in them.--
On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:51:17 PM UTC-7, celt...@hotmail.com wrote:Dear Friends,
Israel Man comments "So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing
that, in the long run, does not matter to us."
If the society to which we are committed is Jewish, then we indeed have not only a right, but also an obligation to educate fellow Jews in the laws and traditions which are the foundation of our people. It does matter to us, just as the actions of all Jews matter to all other Jews. If the person has asked for the Jewish way, it behooves our spiritual and legal leaders, the heads of Chevra Kadishas and learned others to show them that way.
Susan Schwirck
To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
From: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 3 updates in 1 topic
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 10:58:53 +0000
Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
LGP...@aol.com Jun 16 11:21AM -0400
Dear Israel Man
Does tradition play no role at all ? You sign off "Rabbi" which is a
title of Smicha and a level of achievement-you well know the long
history of Smicha and by calling your self a Rabbi you are availing
yourself of a tradition that you indicate we should discard
because an individual "feels" like it.
If you are an observant Rabbi following Rabbanic Judaism you also
know that besides tradition there are some specific halachas that
come into play in "kovod Hamas".
Every instance you mention below is because its religion or a custom
observed for centuries by each group.
Have you been to Varnasi in India where an hour after the body is
put to flames the elder son takes a staff and bashes in the
forehead of his parent to release the soul.That is their Kovod Hamas and
they would be horrified to do otherwise because it is their tradition
and their religion.
I certainly respect them but we have ours and if we claim to be
Jewish and want to part of a Jewish community and we have titles that
indicate a degree of knowledge and expertise we should not discard
what has been our culture and our religious practices for
centuries . We should not throw down the drain what has been part of our
etiology.
Edmund Burke one of the major English Statesman and Philosophers of
the 18th century ferociously defends tradition - "Approximate
Paraphrasing " Traditions are the backbone and the foundation of virtue,
morality and a good society" and a vindication of a natural society. His
writings and quotes are as relevant today as they were 200 years
ago
Sincerely
isaac
In a message dated 6/15/2014 10:32:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
Shalom all,
I did not follow the thread so I respond on the last post.
As a rabbi I always advocated for a proper Jewish burial because this is
what I have learnt and what I was used to. In the last few years I travelled
around the world, saw and studied different cultures with their different
ways to treat the departed. The common denominator is that they all do it
with respect to the dead. The problem is that what is respectful in one
culture looks disrespectful in the other. I've seen bodies embalmed, burnt,
buried in the ground, inserted in concrete cubicles, dumped in the sea,
chopped up and fed to the vultures or buried on the front lawn of the house. All
this made me rethink my attitude. So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing
that, in the long run, does not matter to us.
Respectfully
Israel Man
On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 6:15 PM, 'Ilene Rubenstein' via
jewish-funerals <jewish-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Thank you for challenging my knee-jerk reaction to cremation. As important
as I feel it is to educate in this area, on an individual level, it would
be far more appropriate to start with your simple question: "why cremate?"
which recognizes that their views on, and desire for, cremation may be as
deeply held and complex as my opposition to it. Which is not to say that
further dialogue might not follow, but always, we should start from a position
of respect. So, thank you again for reminding me of that.
And yes - this would make for an interesting research topic.
From: Me'irah <rabbi...@gmail.com>
To: "jewish-...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 6, 2014 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com
- 2 updates in 2 topics
Shalom
Laurie you raise a good point: finding out the reason behind someone's
choosing cremation.
I find that some folks decided to be cremated long ago, then learned about
taharah, and decided that want that, too. I don't think we educate as well
about burial as we do about taharah.
Someone told me once they can't deal with the idea of worms eating them.
Some, I think are afraid of cemeteries. I'm guessing that in a way, having
an urn of "ashes" may feel like a way someone can hold on to their loved
one. I have a friend whose teenage son on a bicycle was killed by an
intoxicated driver. She kept his ashes by her bed for a very long time.
Let's ask people, simply out of curiosity, "why cremation?" And see what
we find out. It would make a good gamliel research project.
Blessings rabbi Me'irah
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, _jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com_
(mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com) wrote:
_Today's topic summary_ ()
Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
* _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1
topic_
(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_0) [1 Update]
* _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_1) [1
Update]
() _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic_
(http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/f53b8389b6ddb647)
() _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
(http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/cb6b99c622e771d8)
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Israel Man <i_...@rocketmail.com> Jun 16 01:02PM -0700
Dear Isaac,
You are right. Tradition is important to you and to me and hopefully we shall be buried according to our tradition. But as you know, there are Jews who are reasonably observant that don't agree or do not care for this burial tradition and desire another form of disposing their bodies. I don't think that I or anyone else have the right to deny them that. We, in our Chevra Kadisha, don't have to do this but if their family see to it privately it is their own business. We can only teach but we are not God's policemen.
Israel
>Dear Israel Man
>Does tradition play no role at all ? You
sign off "Rabbi" which is a title of Smicha
and a level of achievement-you well know the long
history of Smicha and by calling your self a Rabbi you
are availing yourself of a tradition that
you indicate we should discard because
an individual "feels" like it.
>If you are an observant Rabbi following
Rabbanic Judaism you also know that besides
tradition there are some specific halachas that
come into play in "kovod Hamas".
>Every instance you mention below is because its religion
or a custom observed for centuries
by each group.
>Have you been to Varnasi in India where an
hour after the body is put to flames
the elder son takes a staff and bashes in the
forehead of his parent to release the soul.That is their
Kovod Hamas and they would be horrified to
do otherwise because it is their tradition and their
religion.
>I certainly respect them but we have
ours and if we claim to be Jewish and want to part
of a Jewish community and we have titles that
indicate a degree of knowledge and expertise
we should not discard what has been
our culture and our religious practices
for centuries . We should not throw
down the drain what has been part of our
etiology.
>Edmund Burke one of the major English Statesman
and Philosophers of the 18th century ferociously
defends tradition - "Approximate Paraphrasing "
Traditions are the backbone and the foundation of
virtue, morality and a good society" and a
vindication of a natural society. His
writings and quotes are as relevant today as they
were 200 years ago
>Sincerely
>isaac
>In a message dated 6/15/2014 10:32:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
>>>> Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic
>>>> About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation--
>>>You received this message
because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "jewish-funerals"
group.
>>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to jewish-funera...@googlegroups.com.
>>>For
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Groups "jewish-funerals" group.
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LGP...@aol.com Jun 16 09:01PM -0400
it cant be both
either you live up to the tradition you claim is important to you
or " leave it to the individual" as you write below
In a message dated 6/16/2014 8:06:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
Dear Isaac,
You are right. Tradition is important to you and to me and hopefully we
shall be buried according to our tradition. But as you know, there are Jews
who are reasonably observant that don't agree or do not care for this burial
tradition and desire another form of disposing their bodies. I don't think
that I or anyone else have the right to deny them that. We, in our Chevra
Kadisha, don't have to do this but if their family see to it privately it
is their own business. We can only teach but we are not God's policemen.
Israel
On Monday, June 16, 2014 3:40 PM, LGPPRES via jewish-funerals
<jewish-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Dear Israel Man
Does tradition play no role at all ? You sign off "Rabbi" which is a
title of Smicha and a level of achievement-you well know the long
history of Smicha and by calling your self a Rabbi you are availing
yourself of a tradition that you indicate we should discard
because an individual "feels" like it.
If you are an observant Rabbi following Rabbanic Judaism you also
know that besides tradition there are some specific halachas that
come into play in "kovod Hamas".
Every instance you mention below is because its religion or a custom
observed for centuries by each group.
Have you been to Varnasi in India where an hour after the body is
put to flames the elder son takes a staff and bashes in the
forehead of his parent to release the soul.That is their Kovod Hamas and
they would be horrified to do otherwise because it is their tradition
and their religion.
I certainly respect them but we have ours and if we claim to be
Jewish and want to part of a Jewish community and we have titles that
indicate a degree of knowledge and expertise we should not
discard what has been our culture and our religious practices for
centuries . We should not throw down the drain what has been part of
our etiology.
Edmund Burke one of the major English Statesman and Philosophers of
the 18th century ferociously defends tradition - "Approximate
Paraphrasing " Traditions are the backbone and the foundation of virtue,
morality and a good society" and a vindication of a natural society. His
writings and quotes are as relevant today as they were 200 years
ago
Sincerely
isaac
In a message dated 6/15/2014 10:32:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
Shalom all,
I did not follow the thread so I respond on the last post.
As a rabbi I always advocated for a proper Jewish burial because this is
what I have learnt and what I was used to. In the last few years I travelled
around the world, saw and studied different cultures with their different
ways to treat the departed. The common denominator is that they all do it
with respect to the dead. The problem is that what is respectful in one
culture looks disrespectful in the other. I've seen bodies embalmed, burnt,
buried in the ground, inserted in concrete cubicles, dumped in the sea,
chopped up and fed to the vultures or buried on the front lawn of the house. All
this made me rethink my attitude. So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a
thing that, in the long run, does not matter to us.
Respectfully
Israel Man
On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 6:15 PM, 'Ilene Rubenstein' via
jewish-funerals <jewish-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Thank you for challenging my knee-jerk reaction to cremation. As important
as I feel it is to educate in this area, on an individual level, it would
be far more appropriate to start with your simple question: "why cremate?"
which recognizes that their views on, and desire for, cremation may be as
deeply held and complex as my opposition to it. Which is not to say that
further dialogue might not follow, but always, we should start from a position
of respect. So, thank you again for reminding me of that.
And yes - this would make for an interesting research topic.
From: Me'irah <rabbi...@gmail.com>
To: "jewish-...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 6, 2014 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com
- 2 updates in 2 topics
Shalom
Laurie you raise a good point: finding out the reason behind someone's
choosing cremation.
I find that some folks decided to be cremated long ago, then learned about
taharah, and decided that want that, too. I don't think we educate as well
about burial as we do about taharah.
Someone told me once they can't deal with the idea of worms eating them.
Some, I think are afraid of cemeteries. I'm guessing that in a way, having
an urn of "ashes" may feel like a way someone can hold on to their loved
one. I have a friend whose teenage son on a bicycle was killed by an
intoxicated driver. She kept his ashes by her bed for a very long time.
Let's ask people, simply out of curiosity, "why cremation?" And see what
we find out. It would make a good gamliel research project.
Blessings rabbi Me'irah
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, _jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com_
(mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com) wrote:
_Today's topic summary_ ()
Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
* _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1
topic_
(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_0) [1 Update]
* _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_1) [1
Update]
() _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic_
(http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/f53b8389b6ddb647)
() _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
(http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/cb6b99c622e771d8)
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Chevra,If anything goes at any time then what defines us as Jewish.Take it a step further " what isn't Jewishly acceptable"; if its all left to the individual as Israel Rabbi claims then where is his Rubicon , his line of no return??Aren't we defined by guidelines, paradigms , rules and traditions-if anything goes then nothing has value , meaning or definition and its all just selfish "you". Its a sickness in the "ME" generation; venerating the " I " rather then the "We" , the community.Isaac
In a message dated 6/18/2014 2:46:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kerry....@gmail.com writes:
To me, if we are acting as the hands of Gd in the Taharah room, we are acting as his/her agent outside of it in our Chevra Kadisha roll. I've seen what other religions and cultures do; some are very similar to ours while others might even seem barbaric. If you must ask "who are we to ______?". then to me the simple answer is that we are Jews and, as such, we have an obligation to follow our ways, our rituals, our teachings. It's one thing to know about, understand and acknowledge other ways but, IMHO, it doesn't mean we emulate them, adopt them, incorporate them and tacitly engage in them.
On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:51:17 PM UTC-7, celt...@hotmail.com wrote:
Dear Friends,
Israel Man comments "So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing
that, in the long run, does not matter to us."
If the society to which we are committed is Jewish, then we indeed have not only a right, but also an obligation to educate fellow Jews in the laws and traditions which are the foundation of our people. It does matter to us, just as the actions of all Jews matter to all other Jews. If the person has asked for the Jewish way, it behooves our spiritual and legal leaders, the heads of Chevra Kadishas and learned others to show them that way.
Susan Schwirck
To: jewish-...@googlegroups. com
From: jewish-...@googlegroups. com
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups. com - 3 updates in 1 topic
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I always thought that we were defined by our acceptance of the covenant and performance of mitzvot. Our flexibility and growth, our diversity and ability to understand the mitzvot within new paradigms is what has allowed us to survive and be meaningful to each new generation in each new place. It is not selfish to have respect for our journey and that of our fellow Jews.
Barbara
On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, _jewish-...@googlegroups.com_
(mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com) wrote:
_Today's topic summary_ ()
Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
* _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1
topic_
(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_0) [1 Update]
* _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_1) [1
Update]
() _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic_
(http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/f53b8389b6ddb647)
() _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
(http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/cb6b99c622e771d8)
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_Today's topic summary_ ()
Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
* _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1
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(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_0) [1 Update]
* _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_1) [1
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() _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic_
(http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/f53b8389b6ddb647)
() _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
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