Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 3 updates in 1...

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LGP...@aol.com

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Jun 19, 2014, 8:51:23 PM6/19/14
to jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Chevra,
If anything  goes  at any time  then what defines us as Jewish.
Take it a  step further "  what isn't  Jewishly acceptable"; if its  all left to the individual as  Israel  Rabbi  claims  then where is his Rubicon  , his line  of  no return??
Aren't  we  defined  by  guidelines, paradigms , rules  and  traditions-if  anything goes  then  nothing has  value  ,  meaning or   definition  and its all  just   selfish  "you". Its a  sickness in the "ME"  generation;  venerating the " I "  rather then the "We" , the  community.
Isaac
 
In a message dated 6/18/2014 2:46:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kerry....@gmail.com writes:
To me, if we are acting as the hands of Gd in the Taharah room, we are acting as his/her agent outside of it in our Chevra Kadisha roll. I've seen what other religions and cultures do; some are very similar to ours while others might even seem barbaric. If you must ask "who are we to ______?". then to me the simple answer is that we are Jews and, as such, we have an obligation to follow our ways, our rituals, our teachings. It's one thing to know about, understand and acknowledge other ways but, IMHO, it doesn't mean we emulate them, adopt them, incorporate them and tacitly engage in them.

On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:51:17 PM UTC-7, celt...@hotmail.com wrote:
Dear Friends,

Israel Man comments "So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing
that, in the long run, does not matter to us."

If the society to which we are committed is Jewish, then we indeed have not only a right, but also an obligation to educate fellow Jews in the laws and traditions which are the foundation of our people.  It does matter to us, just as the actions of all Jews matter to all other Jews.  If the person has asked for the Jewish way, it behooves our spiritual and legal leaders, the heads of Chevra Kadishas and learned others to show them that way.

Susan Schwirck

To: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
From: jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 3 updates in 1 topic
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 10:58:53 +0000

Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
    LGP...@aol.com Jun 16 11:21AM -0400  

    Dear Israel Man
    Does tradition play no role at all ? You sign off "Rabbi" which is a
    title of Smicha and a level of achievement-you well know the long
    history of Smicha and by calling your self a Rabbi you are availing
    yourself of a tradition that you indicate we should discard
    because an individual "feels" like it.
    If you are an observant Rabbi following Rabbanic Judaism you also
    know that besides tradition there are some specific halachas that
    come into play in "kovod Hamas".
    Every instance you mention below is because its religion or a custom
    observed for centuries by each group.
    Have you been to Varnasi in India where an hour after the body is
    put to flames the elder son takes a staff and bashes in the
    forehead of his parent to release the soul.That is their Kovod Hamas and
    they would be horrified to do otherwise because it is their tradition
    and their religion.
    I certainly respect them but we have ours and if we claim to be
    Jewish and want to part of a Jewish community and we have titles that
    indicate a degree of knowledge and expertise we should not discard
    what has been our culture and our religious practices for
    centuries . We should not throw down the drain what has been part of our
    etiology.
    Edmund Burke one of the major English Statesman and Philosophers of
    the 18th century ferociously defends tradition - "Approximate
    Paraphrasing " Traditions are the backbone and the foundation of virtue,
    morality and a good society" and a vindication of a natural society. His
    writings and quotes are as relevant today as they were 200 years
    ago
    Sincerely
    isaac




    In a message dated 6/15/2014 10:32:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
    i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
     

    Shalom all,
    I did not follow the thread so I respond on the last post.
    As a rabbi I always advocated for a proper Jewish burial because this is
    what I have learnt and what I was used to. In the last few years I travelled
    around the world, saw and studied different cultures with their different
    ways to treat the departed. The common denominator is that they all do it
    with respect to the dead. The problem is that what is respectful in one
    culture looks disrespectful in the other. I've seen bodies embalmed, burnt,
    buried in the ground, inserted in concrete cubicles, dumped in the sea,
    chopped up and fed to the vultures or buried on the front lawn of the house. All
    this made me rethink my attitude. So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
    to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
    have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing
    that, in the long run, does not matter to us.
    Respectfully
    Israel Man
     
     
     
     


    On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 6:15 PM, 'Ilene Rubenstein' via
    jewish-funerals <jewish-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
     
     
     
     
     



    Thank you for challenging my knee-jerk reaction to cremation. As important
    as I feel it is to educate in this area, on an individual level, it would
    be far more appropriate to start with your simple question: "why cremate?"
    which recognizes that their views on, and desire for, cremation may be as
    deeply held and complex as my opposition to it. Which is not to say that
    further dialogue might not follow, but always, we should start from a position
    of respect. So, thank you again for reminding me of that.
     
    And yes - this would make for an interesting research topic.
     
     
     
     


     
    From: Me'irah <rabbi...@gmail.com>
    To: "jewish-...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
    Sent: Friday, June 6, 2014 10:12 AM
    Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com
    - 2 updates in 2 topics
     
     
     

    Shalom
    Laurie you raise a good point: finding out the reason behind someone's
    choosing cremation.
    I find that some folks decided to be cremated long ago, then learned about
    taharah, and decided that want that, too. I don't think we educate as well
    about burial as we do about taharah.
    Someone told me once they can't deal with the idea of worms eating them.
    Some, I think are afraid of cemeteries. I'm guessing that in a way, having
    an urn of "ashes" may feel like a way someone can hold on to their loved
    one. I have a friend whose teenage son on a bicycle was killed by an
    intoxicated driver. She kept his ashes by her bed for a very long time.
    Let's ask people, simply out of curiosity, "why cremation?" And see what
    we find out. It would make a good gamliel research project.
    Blessings rabbi Me'irah
     
    Sent from my iPhone
     
    On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, _jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com_
    (mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com) wrote:
     
     
     
     
    _Today's topic summary_ ()
    Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
    * _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1
    topic_
    (https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_0) [1 Update]
    * _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
    (https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_1) [1
    Update]
    () _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic_
    (http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/f53b8389b6ddb647)
    () _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
    (http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/cb6b99c622e771d8)
     
     
     
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    Israel Man <i_...@rocketmail.com> Jun 16 01:02PM -0700  

    Dear Isaac,
    You are right. Tradition is important to you and to me and hopefully we shall be buried according to our tradition. But as you know, there are Jews who are reasonably observant that don't agree or do not care for this burial tradition and desire another form of disposing their bodies. I don't think that I or anyone else have the right to deny them that. We, in our Chevra Kadisha, don't have to do this but if their family see to it privately it is their own business. We can only teach but we are not God's policemen.
    Israel
     
     
     
    >Dear Israel Man
    >Does  tradition play  no role  at all ?  You
    sign off  "Rabbi"  which is a  title  of  Smicha 
    and a level  of  achievement-you  well know the long 
    history of Smicha  and by calling your self  a  Rabbi  you
    are availing  yourself  of a  tradition  that 
    you  indicate   we  should  discard  because 
    an individual "feels"  like it.
    >If  you  are an observant  Rabbi  following
    Rabbanic  Judaism  you  also know that  besides 
    tradition there  are  some  specific  halachas that 
    come  into play in "kovod Hamas".
    >Every instance  you mention below is  because its religion 
    or a    custom  observed  for  centuries 
    by  each  group.
    >Have  you  been  to Varnasi   in India where an
    hour    after the body is  put  to  flames 
    the elder son  takes a  staff   and bashes  in the
    forehead of his parent  to release  the soul.That is  their 
    Kovod Hamas  and they  would be horrified    to 
    do otherwise  because it is their  tradition and their 
    religion.
    >I  certainly  respect them   but  we  have
    ours  and  if  we claim to be Jewish  and  want to part
    of a  Jewish  community  and we  have titles that
    indicate  a  degree of  knowledge  and  expertise
      we  should not  discard what  has  been 
    our  culture and  our  religious   practices
        for  centuries . We should  not  throw 
    down  the drain  what has  been  part of  our 
    etiology.
    >Edmund  Burke one  of the major  English Statesman
    and  Philosophers of the 18th  century  ferociously
     defends tradition  - "Approximate  Paraphrasing  "
    Traditions  are the backbone  and the foundation  of 
    virtue, morality  and a  good  society" and a 
    vindication  of  a natural  society. His   
    writings and quotes  are as  relevant  today as  they
    were  200  years ago 
    >Sincerely
    >isaac
     
    >In a message dated 6/15/2014 10:32:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
    i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
    >>>> Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic
    >>>> About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation--
    >>>You received this message
    because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "jewish-funerals"
    group.
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    send an email to jewish-funera...@googlegroups.com.
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    LGP...@aol.com Jun 16 09:01PM -0400  

    it cant be both
    either you live up to the tradition you claim is important to you
    or " leave it to the individual" as you write below



    In a message dated 6/16/2014 8:06:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
    i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
     

    Dear Isaac,
    You are right. Tradition is important to you and to me and hopefully we
    shall be buried according to our tradition. But as you know, there are Jews
    who are reasonably observant that don't agree or do not care for this burial
    tradition and desire another form of disposing their bodies. I don't think
    that I or anyone else have the right to deny them that. We, in our Chevra
    Kadisha, don't have to do this but if their family see to it privately it
    is their own business. We can only teach but we are not God's policemen.
    Israel
     
     
     
     


    On Monday, June 16, 2014 3:40 PM, LGPPRES via jewish-funerals
    <jewish-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
     
     
     
     
     


    Dear Israel Man
    Does tradition play no role at all ? You sign off "Rabbi" which is a
    title of Smicha and a level of achievement-you well know the long
    history of Smicha and by calling your self a Rabbi you are availing
    yourself of a tradition that you indicate we should discard
    because an individual "feels" like it.
    If you are an observant Rabbi following Rabbanic Judaism you also
    know that besides tradition there are some specific halachas that
    come into play in "kovod Hamas".
    Every instance you mention below is because its religion or a custom
    observed for centuries by each group.
    Have you been to Varnasi in India where an hour after the body is
    put to flames the elder son takes a staff and bashes in the
    forehead of his parent to release the soul.That is their Kovod Hamas and
    they would be horrified to do otherwise because it is their tradition
    and their religion.
    I certainly respect them but we have ours and if we claim to be
    Jewish and want to part of a Jewish community and we have titles that
    indicate a degree of knowledge and expertise we should not
    discard what has been our culture and our religious practices for
    centuries . We should not throw down the drain what has been part of
    our etiology.
    Edmund Burke one of the major English Statesman and Philosophers of
    the 18th century ferociously defends tradition - "Approximate
    Paraphrasing " Traditions are the backbone and the foundation of virtue,
    morality and a good society" and a vindication of a natural society. His
    writings and quotes are as relevant today as they were 200 years
    ago
    Sincerely
    isaac




    In a message dated 6/15/2014 10:32:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
    i_...@rocketmail.com writes:
     

    Shalom all,
    I did not follow the thread so I respond on the last post.
    As a rabbi I always advocated for a proper Jewish burial because this is
    what I have learnt and what I was used to. In the last few years I travelled
    around the world, saw and studied different cultures with their different
    ways to treat the departed. The common denominator is that they all do it
    with respect to the dead. The problem is that what is respectful in one
    culture looks disrespectful in the other. I've seen bodies embalmed, burnt,
    buried in the ground, inserted in concrete cubicles, dumped in the sea,
    chopped up and fed to the vultures or buried on the front lawn of the house. All
    this made me rethink my attitude. So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
    to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
    have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a
    thing that, in the long run, does not matter to us.
    Respectfully
    Israel Man
     
     
     
     


    On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 6:15 PM, 'Ilene Rubenstein' via
    jewish-funerals <jewish-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
     
     
     
     
     



    Thank you for challenging my knee-jerk reaction to cremation. As important
    as I feel it is to educate in this area, on an individual level, it would
    be far more appropriate to start with your simple question: "why cremate?"
    which recognizes that their views on, and desire for, cremation may be as
    deeply held and complex as my opposition to it. Which is not to say that
    further dialogue might not follow, but always, we should start from a position
    of respect. So, thank you again for reminding me of that.
     
    And yes - this would make for an interesting research topic.
     
     
     
     


     
    From: Me'irah <rabbi...@gmail.com>
    To: "jewish-...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
    Sent: Friday, June 6, 2014 10:12 AM
    Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com
    - 2 updates in 2 topics
     
     
     

    Shalom
    Laurie you raise a good point: finding out the reason behind someone's
    choosing cremation.
    I find that some folks decided to be cremated long ago, then learned about
    taharah, and decided that want that, too. I don't think we educate as well
    about burial as we do about taharah.
    Someone told me once they can't deal with the idea of worms eating them.
    Some, I think are afraid of cemeteries. I'm guessing that in a way, having
    an urn of "ashes" may feel like a way someone can hold on to their loved
    one. I have a friend whose teenage son on a bicycle was killed by an
    intoxicated driver. She kept his ashes by her bed for a very long time.
    Let's ask people, simply out of curiosity, "why cremation?" And see what
    we find out. It would make a good gamliel research project.
    Blessings rabbi Me'irah
     
    Sent from my iPhone
     
    On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, _jewish-funerals@googlegroups.com_
    (mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com) wrote:
     
     
     
     
    _Today's topic summary_ ()
    Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
    * _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1
    topic_
    (https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_0) [1 Update]
    * _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
    (https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_1) [1
    Update]
    () _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic_
    (http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/f53b8389b6ddb647)
    () _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
    (http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/cb6b99c622e771d8)
     
     
     
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Israel Man

unread,
Jun 19, 2014, 10:26:38 PM6/19/14
to jewish-...@googlegroups.com
Dear Isaac,
I don't know you but I'm sure that there are things you do in your life that some Jews will not agree with and will consider non Jewish or sinful.


Israel


On Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:44 PM, LGPPRES via jewish-funerals <jewish-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Chevra,
If anything  goes  at any time  then what defines us as Jewish.
Take it a  step further "  what isn't  Jewishly acceptable"; if its  all left to the individual as  Israel  Rabbi  claims  then where is his Rubicon  , his line  of  no return??
Aren't  we  defined  by  guidelines, paradigms , rules  and  traditions-if  anything goes  then  nothing has  value  ,  meaning or   definition  and its all  just   selfish  "you". Its a  sickness in the "ME"  generation;  venerating the " I "  rather then the "We" , the  community.
Isaac
 
In a message dated 6/18/2014 2:46:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kerry....@gmail.com writes:
To me, if we are acting as the hands of Gd in the Taharah room, we are acting as his/her agent outside of it in our Chevra Kadisha roll. I've seen what other religions and cultures do; some are very similar to ours while others might even seem barbaric. If you must ask "who are we to ______?". then to me the simple answer is that we are Jews and, as such, we have an obligation to follow our ways, our rituals, our teachings. It's one thing to know about, understand and acknowledge other ways but, IMHO, it doesn't mean we emulate them, adopt them, incorporate them and tacitly engage in them.

On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:51:17 PM UTC-7, celt...@hotmail.com wrote:
Dear Friends,

Israel Man comments "So I ask you: Why shouldn't we leave it
to the individual to decide what will be done with his/her body? What right
have we as a society to invade individual privacy and dictate about a thing
that, in the long run, does not matter to us."

If the society to which we are committed is Jewish, then we indeed have not only a right, but also an obligation to educate fellow Jews in the laws and traditions which are the foundation of our people.  It does matter to us, just as the actions of all Jews matter to all other Jews.  If the person has asked for the Jewish way, it behooves our spiritual and legal leaders, the heads of Chevra Kadishas and learned others to show them that way.

Susan Schwirck

To: jewish-...@googlegroups. com
From: jewish-...@googlegroups. com
Subject: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups. com - 3 updates in 1 topic
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LGP...@aol.com

unread,
Jun 20, 2014, 7:18:29 AM6/20/14
to jewish-...@googlegroups.com
of course I am  not  100% totally consistent
but there is a line  that I will not  cross  and should I do so   
 I  know that  in the particular  situation I am not part of  the  greater Jewish  Community.
My  question  to  you  remains  , "If  anything  is  acceptable  what  defines  one as being part of  the Community"
Isaac

Barbara Kavadias

unread,
Jun 20, 2014, 7:18:57 AM6/20/14
to jewish-...@googlegroups.com

I always thought that we were defined by our acceptance of the covenant and performance of mitzvot.  Our flexibility and growth, our diversity and ability to understand the mitzvot within new paradigms is what has allowed us to survive and be meaningful to each new generation in each new place.  It is not selfish to have respect for our journey and that of our fellow Jews.

 

Barbara

On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, _jewish-...@googlegroups.com_

(mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com) wrote:
 
 
 
 
_Today's topic summary_ ()
Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
* _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1
topic_
(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_0) [1 Update]
* _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_1) [1
Update]
() _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic_
(http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/f53b8389b6ddb647)
() _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
(http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/cb6b99c622e771d8)
 
 
 
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On Jun 6, 2014, at 4:00 AM, _jewish-...@googlegroups.com_

(mailto:jewish-...@googlegroups.com) wrote:
 
 
 
 
_Today's topic summary_ ()
Group: http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/topics
* _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1
topic_
(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_0) [1 Update]
* _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
(https://us-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.rand=fnf8bd6n0jsos#group_thread_1) [1
Update]
() _Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic_
(http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/f53b8389b6ddb647)
() _About the question of Taharah in the face of Cremation_
(http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-funerals/t/cb6b99c622e771d8)
 
 
 
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Laurie Kurs

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Jun 20, 2014, 7:20:10 AM6/20/14
to jewish-...@googlegroups.com
 
Israel,
It seems to me that waht Isaac does - or any individual, has little to do with the obligation of not presenting a misleading response.  If I am asked where is a kosher butcher...whether I keep kosher or not is a moot issue, I have a moral obligation to direct him to a kosher place..and not knowingly send him to a kosher style place. 
 
I may choose to cheat on my personal taxes, but, I should be held to a different moral compass when I am a treasurer for a charity....
 
I fail to see the connection between what he does privately and what he feels needs to be done publicly....particularly for unsuspecting MOTS!
 
Laurei
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 at 9:56 PM
From: "Israel Man" <i_...@rocketmail.com>
To: "jewish-...@googlegroups.com" <jewish-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [jewish-funerals] Digest for jewish-...@googlegroups.com - 3 updates in 1...

David Zinner

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Jun 20, 2014, 7:51:43 AM6/20/14
to jewish-...@googlegroups.com
I think we've thoroughly covered a number of topics. 

1. Tahara if there is to be cremation
2. Why cremation is chosen
3. Cultural variations
4. Community education
5. Traditional practices vs. individual choice
6. Providing comfort vs. traditional practices

Shabbat is fast approaching and I think it is time to give this discussion a rest. 

If anyone wants to do more, we'd be glad to post a series of in-depth articles on any of these topics on our web site. Contact DZi...@jewish-funerals.org if interested.
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