Hooghly : might be Ixora polyantha Wight

[surajit koley]

Sir,

This is a tree with highly scented big flowers. It cannot be I. parviflora Vahl (I. pavetta Andr.), neither I. undulata Roxb.

Photos were taken on 06-April-2013, in Hooghly.

Thank you,

Regards,

[surajit koley]

Sir,

Attaching more pictures of this Ixora, recorded on 12/4/13, on the same tree/shrub.

Regards,

surajit

[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:      

Attaching more pictures of this Ixora, recorded on 12/4/13, on the same tree/shrub. Regards, surajit

efi page: Ixora polyantha

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[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

This is a tree with highly scented big flowers. It cannot be I. parviflora Vahl (I. pavetta Andr.), neither I. undulata Roxb.

Photos were taken on 06-April-2013, in Hooghly. Thank you, Regards,

surajit
efi page: Ixora polyantha

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com>
Date: 21 April 2013 23:33
Subject: [efloraofindia:152556] Re: Hooghly : might be Ixora polyantha Wight
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

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[radhaveach]

I don't think this is Ixora polyantha.

Please see this efi post:
 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/indiantreepix/Rubiaceae$20Week$3A$20Ixora$20finlaysoniana$20Wall.$20ex$20G.$20Don$20from$20Delhi/indiantreepix/p_O-MPwW9O8/MnVH4bqpQigJ

From this it seems that the commonly cultivated Ixora in many gardens is Ixora finlaysoniana Wall. ex G. Don, Gen. Hist. 3: 572 1834

regards
Radha

[surajitkoley]

Dear Radha Ji.

Thank you very much. But, why don't you think it is Ixora polyantha ? I have two queries -

1) Is I. polyantha fragrant?

2) How do you differentiate the two species?

I searched, but - https://groups.google.com/d/msg/indiantreepix/W-AS4OWhx1U/OLriIyMe4iYJ

Toptropical, Dave's, The Plant List conflict with each other. So does FoC or FoP.

Thank you once again.

Regards,

surajit

[radhaveach]

Dear Surajit,

If you read the descriptions of Ixora polyantha in Cooke's Flora or in Talbot's Forest Flora of Bombay Presidency and Sind and compare them to the Flora of China description of Ixora finlaysoniana you will have all the answers.

The obvious differences which can be seen in a photograph are as follows:
1. I. polyantha is a much smaller shrub.
2. It thrives in a moist forest environment and not surrounded by buildings.
3. I. polyantha flower heads are slightly flatter and less rounded.
4. In .I polyantha the branches of the cyme are covered in dense white hairs. This can be clearly seen when the flowers are in bud.
5. The leaves of I polyantha have extremely short petioles and often the leaves are sessile. Its leaves also appear more wrinkly than the flat leaves of the cultivated plant in your pics.
6. In I. polyantha the fruits are bright red and even before they are ripe you can see red calyx lobes at the base of the wilting flowers. This is a very noticeable feature.

Santhosh Kumar has quite recently posted a clear photo of I polyantha which should clear your doubts.

As far as I remember I. polyantha is also fragrant.

I apologise if my previous reply cause some frustration.

Requesting experts to add their comments.

regards
Radha

[Dinesh Valke]

Many thanks Surajit ji for sharing this plant.

Thanks to Garg ji for resurfacing the post.

Thank you very much Radha for the clarification related to I. polyantha and I. finlaysoniana.

There are interesting posts in group's archive - there have always been doubts about its ID - ranging from I. pavetta to I. polyantha to I finlaysoniana.

Regards.

Dinesh

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[Satish Phadke]

Thanks Radha ji for the detailed analysis cum description from various sources.

I also observe similar plants in many nearby bungalows in Pune. They must be cultivated ones and should be I. finlaysoniana. Will post the pictures in a separate thread.

Dr Satish Phadke

[surajit koley]

Dear Madam,

Thank you very much for the points to be remembered about I. polyantha and I. finlaysoniana. Some confusions still exist -

1. I. polyantha is a much smaller shrub.

• Yes, it is so in Cooke - http://ia600406.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?id=floraofpresidenc01cook&itemPath=%2F21%2Fitems%2Ffloraofpresidenc01cook&server=ia600406.us.archive.org&page=n626_w299
• Also in Talbot - http://www.archive.org/stream/TalbotTreesBombay/TalbotTreesBombayPresidency#page/n323/mode/2up
• But not in Hooker - http://ia700609.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?id=mobot21753000004407&itemPath=%2F0%2Fitems%2Fmobot21753000004407&server=ia700609.us.archive.org&page=n143_w291

2. It thrives in a moist forest environment and not surrounded by buildings.

• I do not know about habitat, so i should refrain here. However, Hooghly is a moist area and FoP informs it is cultivated in Pakistan.

3. I. polyantha flower heads are slightly flatter and less rounded.

• Cooke - "Flowers in corymbiform cymes open or collected into a globose head"
• Talbot - nothing found
• Hooker - "...... or open very-many flowered branches robust..." and " ... collected into globose sessile head...."

4. In .I polyantha the branches of the cyme are covered in dense white hairs. This can be clearly seen when the flowers are in bud.

• Cooke - ".. usually densely clothed with white hairs....."
• Talbot - nothing found
• Hooker - " .... sometimes white with dense woolly spreading hair..."

5. The leaves of I polyantha have extremely short petioles and often the leaves are sessile. Its leaves also appear more wrinkly than the flat leaves of the cultivated plant in your pics.

• Cooke - (in I. polyantha) petiole 1/8 to 3/8 th in. long. That translates to about 3 mm to 9,5 mm, which is almost same as Ixora finlaysoniana in FoC
• Talbot - nothing found
• Hooker - leaves sessile or short petioled
• Again i refrain about wrinkly leaves, because nothing found anywhere

6. In I. polyantha the fruits are bright red and even before they are ripe you can see red calyx lobes at the base of the wilting flowers. This is a very noticeable feature. 

• nothing found on red calyx lobes in Talbot and Hooker. Ripe fruits are red in Cooke

Now, for winkled leaves, red calyx, please check - http://plantgenera.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=96985.

Found Ixora finlaysoniana -

• http://www.biolib.cz/en/taxonimage/id182195/?taxonid=213548
  
• http://ecflora.cavehill.uwi.edu/vhdetail.php?did=2438&sn=Ixora+finlaysoniana
  
• http://apps.kew.org/efloras/namedetail.do?flora=fz&taxon=54829&nameid=121493#DESCRIPTION
  

I skipped eFI posts.

Thank you.

Regards,

surajit

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 8:55 AM, radhaveach <radha...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[radha veach]

Dear Surajit,

the points I have written to you are based on my own observations of the two plants in the field and later confirmed by written texts.

In the end all we have are our own experiences which we can offer to others.

best regards
Radha

[Gurcharan Singh]

Thanks Surajit ji for a very detailed analysis with links. It should go a long way finally nailing the identity. My understanding of differences between two species under discussion is as under:

I. polyantha                                                             I. finlaysoniana

1. Small shrub                                                         1. Shrub or tree reaching up to 18 feet

2. stipules broadly ovate                                           2. Stipules triangular-ovate

3. Leaves 15-30 cm long                                           3. Leaves 10-17 cm long

4. Cymes densely covered with white hairs                 4. Cymes puberulous, not with white hairs

5. Calyx hairy, tube 3-5 mm long,                               5. Calyx glabrous, tube 1-1.5 mm long, 

    lobes 6-8 mm long                                                    lobes 4-6 mm long.

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Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297  Mob: 9810359089

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[surajit koley]

Madam,

In your earlier mail it was, "If you read the descriptions of Ixora polyantha in Cooke's Flora or in Talbot's Forest Flora of Bombay Presidency and Sind and compare them to the Flora of China description of Ixora finlaysoniana you will have all the answers."

In the latest mail it is, "the points I have written to you are based on my own observations of the two plants in the field and later confirmed by written texts. "

My view is the same as it was in my earlier mail.

Thank you.

Regards,

surajit

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 7:23 AM, radha veach <radha...@gmail.com> wrote:

[surajit koley]

Thank you Sir.

My understanding is a bit different. All the points i have found about the two species, in various literature,  FoC+FoP, and other sites, i think, are not distinctive enough to come to any conclusion, specially when the plants under consideration are selective cultivars.

Regards,

surajit

[Dr Santhosh Kumar]

Finally it may be concluded that your plant is Ixora finlaysoniana not I.polyantha

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SANTHOSH
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Dr. E.S. Santhosh Kumar MSc, PhD, FIAT, FLS (on leave for 2 years)
Jawaharlal Nehru Tropical Botanic Garden and Research Institute, Palode
Thiruvananthapuram-695562
Kerala
India
www.drsanthosh.wetpaint.com

 

Presently working for the British Aerospace, Riyadh, KSA

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[surajit koley]

Great! I was expecting this! Why so hurry dear Santosh Sir, to reach to a conclusion?

Don't you think all of you are contradicting yourselves?

Let's see who has Ixora polyantha in our group. Certainly you have one, uploaded twice and validated by yourself and Radha Ji. Gurcharan Sir has one. DInesh Ji has one. And..... well, i will come to this later. Should i paste here the links? I skip for the time being.

• What Radha Ji informs?
  

Again i copy a few words i received from Radha Ji - 1) "....you can see red calyx lobes at the base of the wilting flowers. This is a very noticeable feature....." 2) "Santhosh Kumar has quite recently posted a clear photo of I polyantha which should clear your doubts"

Do you think i need to get my eyes checked by a good optician/doctor. Because i fail to see any red calyx in your post(s) or in post(s) by Gurcharan Sir.

• what Dinesh Ji says?

Dinesh Ji's post gets validated by Radha Ji's "red calyx". Strange! i wonder how Dinesh Ji's "red calyx" turns green in Santosh Ji's and Gurucharan Ji's!

Moreover, Dinesh Ji seems to know I. polyantha very well, yet he identifies a 15 ft tree (or shrub, whatever it may) as I. polyantha!!!

• what Satish Sir says?

Well, i am yet to see Satish Ji's cards.

• what is red calyx - white Ixora?

How do i know Radha JI is correct? She contradicts herself. Besides there is an illustration - http://plantgenera.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=96985 showing red calyx-white flowers, which is I chinensis Lam. Moreover, one eflora informs flowers of I.finlaysoniana are cream-white!!! Of course some creams are pure white too!!!

• globose or flatter heads?

What i happens if i show you flatter head with few flowers in this very tree?

• tree or shrub?

That's the only point you have, not strong enough. You know it far better than me that cultivated plants defy many rules.

None of you could show white hairs (sometimes, not always), hairy calyx (pubescent, not hairy), stipules or other identifying characters in your uploads. Hint of white patch can be found in Dinesh Ji's post, not sure if those are white hairs or moulds, equally not sure if that is I. polyantha or some other. So much contradicting posts and identification!!!

Very interesting, isn't it?

Regards,

surajit

[Dinesh Valke]

Dear Surajit ji,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

• what Dinesh Ji says?

Dinesh Ji's post gets validated by Radha Ji's "red calyx". Strange! i wonder how Dinesh Ji's "red calyx" turns green in Santosh Ji's and Gurucharan Ji's!

Moreover, Dinesh Ji seems to know I. polyantha very well, yet he identifies a 15 ft tree (or shrub, whatever it may) as I. polyantha!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That was my blunder of putting the guess as I. polyantha.
Got carried away looking at the rather lax inflorescence - more nearer look-wise to I. polyantha than I. finlaysoniana ... I totally missed seeing the words 15 ft tree.
Certainly my guess has added to your confusion.

Please accept my apologies.

Regards.

Dinesh

[surajit koley]

Dear Dear Dinesh Ji,

Please do not say apology. Whatever i i have learned about flora is all from you, Gurcharan Sir, Satish Sir....... recently Santosh Sir, Radha Ji.. .... each and every member in this group.

I argue, to learn, to find the truth, as you have said in another mail - all of us. Nothing personal. As you have also said expressions vary from person to person, while communicating.

Thank you,

Regards,

surajit

[Dinesh Valke]

Many thanks Surajit ji.

Regards.

Dinesh

[surajit koley]

Dear Madam,

One day i may be able to prove that you are correct.

Please do not get hurt with my views opposing you. I too felt same, many times, one example, for you - https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/indiantreepix/U2jyVTQGrfQ

Thank you,

Regards,

surajit

[surajit koley]

Thank you very very much, Madam.

I am very happy.

I look froward to your help, in future too.

I really do mean it.

Regards,

surajit

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 8:57 PM, <radha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Many thanks, Surajit,

regards
Radha

--

[Gurcharan Singh]

Forwarding again for ID

Distributed as  Ixora finlaysoniana ? 

Group discussion at

Hooghly : might be Ixora polyantha Wight (google.com) 

[Gurcharan Singh]

Forwarding again for ID

Distributed as  Ixora finlaysoniana ? 

Group discussion at

Hooghly : might be Ixora polyantha Wight (google.com) 

[Saroj Kasaju]

I guess ID is correct !

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

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[Gurcharan Singh]

Yes Saroj ji, thanks a lot for confirmation.

Dr. Gurcharan Singh

Retired  Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.

Mob: 9810359089

https://www.gurcharanfamily.com/

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[Saroj Kasaju]

My pleasure!

Thank you Gurucharan sir!

Saroj Kasaju

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