Velas, Sao Jorge records help

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themo...@aol.com

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Jan 28, 2016, 10:05:11 PM1/28/16
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I didn't get a response on this question using a different subject line, so I am trying something new.  Hoping someone more familiar with the names and handwriting can help me make sense of these records and either verify that it is my family or that I am on the wrong track with the 1873 records for Francisca and Marianna.  I am fairly certain that the father and paternal grandparents on these records are my ggrandfather's sibling and parents, BUT the father's last name is de Souza on the earlier record (1867, #41 Maria), but it looks like it could be Lucas or Lemos?? on the later records (1873).  The paternal grandfather's name looks like Manuel Silveira de Souza Salsa (what?) on the 1873 records.  The last name of the maternal grandfather looks like Balaine on the 1873 records; on the 1867 record it looked like Baliel to me.  Oh, and the maternal grandmother's name was Mariana Luiza on the 1867 record and now it is Marianna Josefa.  Is this totally the wrong family?  Did the priest make some mistakes?  (too much vinho as Cheri would say)  

linda

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Jan 28, 2016, 11:36:08 PM1/28/16
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Hi Lisa,

Here are the names that I see in the records:

Maria/record 41:
filha natural
father = Manuel Silveira de Souza Lucas, solteiro, carpinteiro
mother = Mariana Luiza, solteira, costureira
paternal gps = Manuel Silveira de Souza and Anna Luiza
maternal gps =  Antonio Jose Baleil and Maria Josefa

Francisca/ record 5:
filha natural
father = Manoel Silveira Lucas, carpenteiro
mother = Marianna Josefa, empregada no governo domestico
paternal gps = Manoel Silveira de Sousa [Sa??a] and Anna Luisa
maternal gps = Antonio Jose [Bali??] and Maria Josefa

Marianna/ record 6:
filha natural
father = Manoel Silveira Lucas, carpinteiro
mother = Marianna Josefa, empregada no governo domestico
paternal gps = Manoel Silveira de Sousa Salsa and Anna Louisa
maternal gps = Antonio Jose [Bolai?] and Maria Josefa, ja defuntos

Despite the inconsistencies, I'd say these records are all from the same family.  I'm sorry, I don't know what the maternal grandparent's surname might be.

I hope that helps to answer your questions.

Linda

bsei...@gmail.com

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Jan 30, 2016, 3:13:24 AM1/30/16
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In the 1867 baptism of Maria, I think the Maternal grandfather's name looks to me like Antonio Jose Baliel.  I had never seen this name "Baliel" before, but on Ancestry it does show some immigrant passengers from Faial to Boston in the early 1800s so the name did exist in the Azores. The other two records though the name looks more like "Blair", a common name but not a Portuguese name so I'm not sure what to make of that.  I do agree with Linda though that they are likely the same person.  

Another thing I found interesting is that the last two baptisms were on the same day, but the priest only said "ja defunctos" for the last.  I found Maria Joesfa in Nov 1872 http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-VELAS-O-1871-1880/SJR-VL-VELAS-O-1871-1880_item1/P23.html; It says she is the widow of what looks like Antonio Jose Blair (or Blaer), just like on the 1873 baptisms.  I found Antonio Jose's in December 1870 here: http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-VELAS-O-1860-1870/SJR-VL-VELAS-O-1860-1870_item1/P163.html and the name appears to be Blair or Blaer here also.

The priest may have made a mistake on the 1873 baptism by writing Marianna Luiza instead of Marianna Josefa; or Marianna Luiza started using the name Josefa instead of Luiza.  

Bill Seidler

  


linda

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Jan 30, 2016, 2:07:55 PM1/30/16
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Huh!  That's interesting.

I just did a quick search through the Terceira Marriage Index for "bali" and "bale" and the names that came up were "Baliero/a", "Baleeiro/a" and Balencio. 

In the baptismal records, I still see "Bal---", but the Obits definitely look like "Blaer"!

TOTAL SPECULATION :) The same priest recorded the obits and the first baptism; a second priest recorded the second two baptisms.  I wonder if it was an unusual name for Velas/Sao Jorge, and if the priests were spelling it phonetically how they heard the parishioners pronounce it?   It's not a very common name in the Terceira-- and seems to be mostly concentrated in the 1600's in a few locations-- and didn't show up at all in the Flores Index.   Perhaps as Lisa goes back along that line she'll find an ancestor who moved from Terceira to Velas; one or two of mine moved the other way, from Velas to Terceira.  I wonder if her ancestors were whalers or if the name comes from some thing/where else?

fascinating stuff!

thanks Bill and Lisa!

Linda

Marcio

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Jan 30, 2016, 2:41:17 PM1/30/16
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Blayer surname comes from the descendants of a Joseph Blayer, born  St. Martin in the Fields, London England and died in Velas, s. Jorge Jul 22 1747. He married Maria Faustiina da Silveira, born in Urzelina, s. Jorge. Today there are descendants who carry this surname.

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linda meneses

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Jan 30, 2016, 2:59:28 PM1/30/16
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Whoohoo!  mystery solved :^D

Love it!-- truth is much better than lame speculation.  Thanks!

Linda

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themo...@aol.com

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Jan 31, 2016, 9:33:34 PM1/31/16
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Wow!  so much more help than I could have asked for.  Thank you all.  
On the baptism I posted that states ja defunto, I thought that only would pertain to Maria Josefa since it was stated immediately following her name.  Those maternal grandparents (Antonio & Maria) are not in my direct line but this gives me more good information to follow up on.  Also, I noticed on Maria Josefa's obito the surname that I am unsure about on Marianna & Francisca's baptisms; it still looks like Lucas to me.  Could that be correct?

linda

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Jan 31, 2016, 10:21:48 PM1/31/16
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It looks to me as if it says "ja defuntos" on the record-- though the "s" isn't prominent-- so it would indicate both Maria Josefa and Antonio Jose have died.

I read "Lucas" in the father's name in all three baptismal records.  In Maria Josefa's obit, I read her father as "Antonio Jose Lucas". 

hope that's helpful,

Linda

linda

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Mar 3, 2016, 1:21:21 AM3/3/16
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Linda


On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 6:33:34 PM UTC-8, themo...@aol.com wrote:

themo...@aol.com

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Mar 5, 2016, 6:32:28 PM3/5/16
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Once again, more than I expected.  Thank you for thinking of my search when you saw this and sharing it.  Don't think I ever would have found that.  Another piece of information.  :)

Lisa

linda

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Mar 5, 2016, 11:45:11 PM3/5/16
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:D

"Blayer" stands out from all the "Silveiras" "Pereiras" and "Machados"!

I'm happy to have helped,

Linda

linda

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Apr 11, 2016, 10:30:15 PM4/11/16
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