There are no true Christians
usenet...@yahoo.de
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
"This is my point:
I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks. I
have printed the full passages so as to not be accused of taking the
verses out of context. As can be seen from a careful reading, it quite
plainly implies that in so obeying this admonition of the Lord, you may
indeed be blessing someone who is evil. Let's read:
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
you, and persecute you;"
Giant Waffle
usenet...@yahoo.de shouted thusly:
>Well, almost.
>http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
>"This is my point:
>
>I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
>Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
>donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
>only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
>the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
>the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks.
You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
--
Giant Waffle
<{{{><
My heart rejoices in the Lord; My horn is exalted in the Lord.
I smile at my enemies, because I rejoice in Your salvation.
- 1 Samuel 2:1
usenet...@yahoo.de
Giant Waffle wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2006 06:33:42 -0700, while bungee jumping,
> usenet...@yahoo.de shouted thusly:
>
> >Well, almost.
> >http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
> >"This is my point:
> >
> >I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
> >Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
> >donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
> >only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
> >the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
> >the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks.
>
> You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
How can one misusing a clear commandment?
1) John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
2) John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is
that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and
I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
3) John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;
even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
This seems pretty plain to me. If you love the Lord, you keep his
commandments. Simple!
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh
away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them
likewise.
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
turn not thou away.
Clear commandments to Christians.
Btw, the above is not my webpage, I just found it a remarkable example.
G-Net
news:1161092022.6...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that we are
just
to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks. To do so would mean that we
did not have sufficient means to take care of our family, our church or even
those
whom we know to be in need.
Secondly, asking in a NG is pretty bogus in my opinion because no one has
anyway
of really knowing who you are or whether this is some scam. You could
already
be a millionair or at least be a person of above average means. To give my
money
to someone who is NOT needy means that I have less money to give to those
who
I know are.
If this is legitamate then go to your church and ask people who know you
for help.
If the people who you actually see and know deny you then you may have a
case
for saying that they are not obeying the scriptures. I'm sure that there are
other
churches in your community as well that you could talk to about giving you
some
financial assistance.
But please don't attempt to lay a guilt trip on total strangers who have no
way of
knowing you or your situation. The other thing I would caution you on is
that God
knows everything, including your situation. IF you are attempting a con, HE
will
know it...
Al Klein
<_giantw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 17 Oct 2006 06:33:42 -0700, while bungee jumping,
>usenet...@yahoo.de shouted thusly:
>
>
>>Well, almost.
>>http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
>>"This is my point:
>>
>>I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
>>Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
>>donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
>>only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
>>the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
>>the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks.
>
>You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
He's "interpreting" them in the finest Christian tradition. All True
Christians interpret the Bible.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I can't activate two neurons simultaneously, and I vote"
- The theistic majority
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
usenet...@yahoo.de
So you admit that the Bible does not give good advice and is no
trustworthy guide.
> Secondly, asking in a NG is pretty bogus in my opinion because no one has anyway
> of really knowing who you are or whether this is some scam. You could already
> be a millionair or at least be a person of above average means. To give my money
> to someone who is NOT needy means that I have less money to give to those who
> I know are.
The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
> If this is legitamate then go to your church and ask people who know you
> for help.
You misunderstand the reason why I posted this. I just wanted to show
that the Bibel cannot reasonably be trusted. I guess I succeeded.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
that HE had entrusted to me to steward and to place it next to this
computer work station here in this medical center building.
Would gladly give this to you when we meet in person. You will have to
call for an appointment and find your way to my office, however:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/eb42672896d36d4b?
May GOD continue to show you HIS infinite mercy and grace by keeping
your heart beating to give you time to understand this, dear neighbor
Al whom I love unconditionally.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f4dad7fe68478acf?
Giant Waffle
usenet...@yahoo.de shouted thusly:
>Giant Waffle wrote:
>
>> On 17 Oct 2006 06:33:42 -0700, while bungee jumping,
>> usenet...@yahoo.de shouted thusly:
>>
>> >Well, almost.
>> >http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
>> >"This is my point:
>> >
>> >I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
>> >Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
>> >donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
>> >only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
>> >the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
>> >the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks.
>>
>> You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
>
>How can one misusing a clear commandment?
Easy. By assuming an attitude and placing it into it.
Goodbye now.
usenet...@yahoo.de
Giant Waffle wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2006 07:42:02 -0700, while bungee jumping,
> usenet...@yahoo.de shouted thusly:
>
>
> >Giant Waffle wrote:
> >
> >> On 17 Oct 2006 06:33:42 -0700, while bungee jumping,
> >> usenet...@yahoo.de shouted thusly:
> >>
> >> >Well, almost.
> >> >http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
> >> >"This is my point:
> >> >
> >> >I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
> >> >Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
> >> >donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
> >> >only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
> >> >the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
> >> >the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks.
> >>
> >> You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
> >
> >How can one misusing a clear commandment?
>
> Easy. By assuming an attitude and placing it into it.
You disobey the commandment of your Lord Jesus Christ (to not resist
any evil) if you do not as the scripture says. According to Jesus you
have to pay $ 10 to that person because she asks. I have no problem
with that, I am not religious. But you should have a problem. You
disobey your God by refusing.
usenet...@yahoo.de
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> The Holy Spirit has guided me to open a wallet and take out a $10 bill
> that HE had entrusted to me to steward and to place it next to this
> computer work station here in this medical center building.
>
> Would gladly give this to you when we meet in person. You will have to
> call for an appointment and find your way to my office, however:
The person who owns the website I quoted asked to pay by paypal.
I KILLED YOUR GOD...IT WAS EASY!
MORON!
G-Net
news:1161098931....@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Not at all. The Bible gives great advice IF one is willing to actually take
the time to
read and understand it. Unfortunately, there are people who only use the
Bible
when they think that they can benefit financially or otherwise.
>> Secondly, asking in a NG is pretty bogus in my opinion because no one has
>> anyway
>> of really knowing who you are or whether this is some scam. You could
>> already
>> be a millionair or at least be a person of above average means. To give
>> my money
>> to someone who is NOT needy means that I have less money to give to those
>> who
>> I know are.
>
> The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
So we should give all of our money to you, is that it? Maybe you should read
the rest
of the 66 books and then you would know that Christians were not commanded
to
fall for every scam artist who comes along.
>> If this is legitamate then go to your church and ask people who know you
>> for help.
>
> You misunderstand the reason why I posted this. I just wanted to show
> that the Bibel cannot reasonably be trusted. I guess I succeeded.
You may have shown that the "Bibel" cannot be trusted but you proved
that the Bible is VERY trustworthy. It clearly proved what a scam your
pleas for money were.
Giant Waffle
" Midwinter" <midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> shouted thusly:
>Giant Waffle <_giantw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
>
>Actually, he isn't. Jesus' instruction is clear. If someone asks, don't
>refuse. He's asking, so it's beholden on those who follow Jesus'
>instructions to accept.
>
>This poster is clearly taking the piss - that's obvious. But even so, his
>logic here is impeccable.
According to you, based on your assumption that Jesus
was promoting the idea of anybody asking anybody,
no matter what their circumstances.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > The Holy Spirit has guided me to open a wallet and take out a $10 bill
> > that HE had entrusted to me to steward and to place it next to this
> > computer work station here in this medical center building.
> >
> > Would gladly give this to you when we meet in person. You will have to
> > call for an appointment and find your way to my office, however:
>
> The person who owns the website I quoted asked to pay by paypal.
> "And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain."
"Those who do the will of MY Father are MY family." -- LORD Jesus
Christ
Amen !
Laus Deo ! !
Marana tha ! ! !
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/175b5dc947a0781f?
May GOD continue to show you HIS infinite mercy and grace by keeping
your heart beating to give you time to understand this, dear neighbor
Mathias whom I love unconditionally.
Giant Waffle
" Midwinter" <midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> shouted thusly:
>"G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that
>> we are just
>> to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks.
>
>Of course it does. That's exactly what it says:
>
>"Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
>turn not thou away."
>
>I don't see a single 'except' in that instruction. Do you?
Jesus' words imply a need. Thus, if I am able to give it,
then I would give to those in need. Why would someone
borrow from me, if they already have what they need?
usenet...@yahoo.de
Giant Waffle wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:27:34 -0500, while bungee jumping,
> " Midwinter" <midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> shouted thusly:
>
>
> >Giant Waffle <_giantw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
> >
> >Actually, he isn't. Jesus' instruction is clear. If someone asks, don't
> >refuse. He's asking, so it's beholden on those who follow Jesus'
> >instructions to accept.
> >
> >This poster is clearly taking the piss - that's obvious. But even so, his
> >logic here is impeccable.
>
> According to you, based on your assumption that Jesus
> was promoting the idea of anybody asking anybody,
> no matter what their circumstances.
It is no assumption, it is what the text says:
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh
away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them
likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners
also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye?
for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have
ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing
again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of
the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
G-Net
news:Xns985FB34A24EB...@216.196.109.145...
> "G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that
>> we are just
>> to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks.
>
>
> turn not thou away."
>
My Bible contains more than one verse. God gave me a mind and an ability to
discern a "con" when I see one. Taking one verse out of context might seem
to say give to anyone, anytime, for any reason but again, that's not what
the
whole Bible says. It is again just a rather lame attempt to personally
profit
from God's word.
>> To do so would mean that we did not have sufficient means to take care
>> of our family, our church or even those whom we know to be in need.
>
> So YOU get to be the judge of who's in need? Where does it say that?
I am a steward of what God entrusted me with. All that I own, all that I
possess,
all my talents and abilities are all God given for a purpose. I was (as all
are),
given a mind and an ability to ask for discernment from God. If I were to
give
to every scam artist who came along I would be not only destitute but would
be neglecting my family and others who depend upon me as well.
I am the "judge" if you will of what I do with the recources that God has
given
me. Have you read the parable of the talents? That would be a good place to
start....
> And besides, what you give you'll get back:
>
> "He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which
> soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully." - 2 Corinthians 9:6
But as Christians, we are not to give so that we can get back. We are to
give
freely and with no expectations whatsoever.
>> Secondly, asking in a NG is pretty bogus in my opinion because no one
>> has anyway of really knowing who you are or whether this is some
>> scam
>
> Yes we do. We know it is. Well, not so much a 'scam', because it's not
> trying to deceive anyone: the poster's just asking for money, and
> indicating why true Christians should hand it over.
Yeah, HIS idea of what a true Christian is, rather than God's idea. I'm not
the least bit interested in what some scam artist in a NG thinks a "true
Christian" is. My only concern is what God's opinion of me is.
>> You could already be a millionair or at least be a person of above
>> average means.
>
> Could be. He certainly hasn't claimed otherwise. But then, the
> instruction quoted says nothing about that, does it? All it says is:
>
> "Give to him that asketh thee".
>
> This guy's asking. And he's not asking for a loan, but a gift. So you
> have the choice of either giving, or turning away. Jesus' instruction
> didn't say "give to him that asketh thee as long as he's not using my
> words for selfish purposes on Usenet".
No, and as I recall it doesn't say "Be thou gullible" either...
>> To give my money to someone who is NOT needy means that I have less
>> money to give to those who I know are.
>
> True, true. It's a knotty one, isn't it?
It isn't "knotty" (whatever that means), at all. It was pretty clear to me
as soon as I read the post.
>> If this is legitamate
>
> It's not. But it is quite interesting, don't you think?
It was a scam! I don't find dishonesty interesting, I find it rather sad.
>> But please don't attempt to lay a guilt trip on total strangers
>
> Guilt trip? He did no such thing. It's one of the most honest begging
> posts I've ever seen: "I want money, please give me some".
The post implied that IF one did not give to him that one was not a
"true Christian", that to me is an attempt to lay guilt and a misuse
of scripture as well.
> He's not made any reference to dying relative; someone who desperately
> needs an operation; poor kiddie who can't get a decent education;
> disabled family member; bureaucratic injustice; neglected veteran
> struggling for a living from the country he fought for; or any of the
> usual bulldung we get fed by those who want our cash.
Oh I see, so his scam in your eyes was an "honest" one then?
>> IF you are attempting a con, HE will know it...
>
> And hopefully, it's given Him a much-needed laugh, too. There must be
> precious few of those for Him around here.
Somehow I doubt if God finds sin a laughing matter. The Devil probably
finds it rather amusing though.
> By the way, what the blazes is a Rush Limbaugh?
I'm not even sure where this came from! He's a guy who used to be either on
the radio or TV. He's a conservative commentator or something like that. He
was in the news for some kind of addiction to prescription drugs.
usenet...@yahoo.de
> > G-Net wrote:
> >> But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that we are
> >> just to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks. To do so would mean that we
> >> did not have sufficient means to take care of our family, our church or even
> >> those whom we know to be in need.
> >
> > So you admit that the Bible does not give good advice and is no
> > trustworthy guide.
>
> Not at all. The Bible gives great advice IF one is willing to actually take the time to
> read and understand it. Unfortunately, there are people who only use the Bible
> when they think that they can benefit financially or otherwise.
That can happen when one's belief is based on a book which can be
twisted easily in all directions.
> > The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
>
> So we should give all of our money to you, is that it?
According to that book, yes. Either you trust that book and obey those
commandments or you do not. I do not say that you should trust that
book.
> Maybe you should read the rest of the 66 books and then you would know that Christians
> were not commanded to fall for every scam artist who comes along.
Christians are commanded to do exactly this in regard of physical
possessions. How can one misunderstand a clear commandment which is not
taken out of context:
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh
away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them
likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners
also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye?
for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have
ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing
again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of
the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
> >> If this is legitamate then go to your church and ask people who know you
> >> for help.
> >
> > You misunderstand the reason why I posted this. I just wanted to show
> > that the Bibel cannot reasonably be trusted. I guess I succeeded.
>
> You may have shown that the "Bibel" cannot be trusted but you proved
> that the Bible is VERY trustworthy. It clearly proved what a scam your
> pleas for money were.
You are disobeying Jesus if you do not give to anybody who is asking.
Adam Albright
The only Christian group that truly practices forgivness is the
America Amish community as recent events prove. All the rest,
especially the fake evangelical assholes and the holy roller boy
raping Roman Catholics are Christians in name only and are among the
biggest hypocrites on the planet with the likes of evil bastards like
Pat Robertson, Farwell and thousands of boy molesting priests.
usenet...@yahoo.de
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> usenet_tr...@yahoo.de wrote:
> > Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > > The Holy Spirit has guided me to open a wallet and take out a $10 bill
> > > that HE had entrusted to me to steward and to place it next to this
> > > computer work station here in this medical center building.
> > >
> > > Would gladly give this to you when we meet in person. You will have to
> > > call for an appointment and find your way to my office, however:
> >
> > The person who owns the website I quoted asked to pay by paypal.
> > "And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain."
>
> "Those who do the will of MY Father are MY family." -- LORD Jesus
> Christ
The word does not say to give only to family or those in need but just
to anybody who asks, even the evil.
Zooropa
LOL I wish I had thought of this first...LMFAO
joe
you are a pan-handler. not a Christian. you convienently left out
the opening verse to this Sermon on the Mount... " And seeing the
multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His
disciples came to Him.
Then He opened His mouth and taught them " Mt 5:1,2
the " them " are the Christians to whom the Sermon on the Mount is
addressed... not the world at large... for they do not receive the
things of the Spirit of God; neither can they know them...
you have money enough to afford a news provider.
Ghod
news:ko1aj21lue4703iuq...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:27:34 -0500, while bungee jumping,
> " Midwinter" <midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> shouted thusly:
>
>
> >Giant Waffle <_giantw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
> >
> >Actually, he isn't. Jesus' instruction is clear. If someone asks,
don't
> >refuse. He's asking, so it's beholden on those who follow Jesus'
> >instructions to accept.
> >
> >This poster is clearly taking the piss - that's obvious. But even
so, his
> >logic here is impeccable.
>
> According to you, based on your assumption that Jesus
> was promoting the idea of anybody asking anybody,
> no matter what their circumstances.
You're a silly xian. Do you tithe? Hmmm? Are you handing over 10%
of your gross income to some preacher? If so, why not do like your
book says, and give that $10...come on, you know you want to!
G-Net
news:1161105076....@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> G-Net wrote:
>> <usenet...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
>> news:1161098931....@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> > G-Net wrote:
>> >> But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that
>> >> we are
>> >> just to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks. To do so would
>> >> mean that we
>> >> did not have sufficient means to take care of our family, our church
>> >> or even
>> >> those whom we know to be in need.
>> >
>> > So you admit that the Bible does not give good advice and is no
>> > trustworthy guide.
>>
>> Not at all. The Bible gives great advice IF one is willing to actually
>> take the time to
>> read and understand it. Unfortunately, there are people who only use the
>> Bible
>> when they think that they can benefit financially or otherwise.
>
> That can happen when one's belief is based on a book which can be
> twisted easily in all directions.
No, it doesn't happen because Christianity is based on the Bible. It happens
because people are selfish, self-centered, self-serving, arrogant, and
sinful.
>> > The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
>>
>> So we should give all of our money to you, is that it?
>
> According to that book, yes. Either you trust that book and obey those
> commandments or you do not. I do not say that you should trust that
> book.
I absolutely trust the Bible and what it says. I just don't agree that you
are
accurately communicating what the Bible says nor the context that it says
it.
>> Maybe you should read the rest of the 66 books and then you would know
>> that Christians
>> were not commanded to fall for every scam artist who comes along.
>
> Christians are commanded to do exactly this in regard of physical
> possessions. How can one misunderstand a clear commandment which is not
> taken out of context:
>
> Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh
> away thy goods ask them not again.
> 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them
> likewise.
> 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners
> also love those that love them.
> 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye?
> for sinners also do even the same.
> 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have
> ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
> 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing
> again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of
> the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Obviously your idea of "context" (give to you), and my idea of "context"
(use your
God given brain to give to those who are REALLY in need), are not the same.
Imagine that, you use the scripture for personal gain, I use the scripture
to do what
God wants me to. Seems pretty simple really.
>> >> If this is legitamate then go to your church and ask people who know
>> >> you
>> >> for help.
>> >
>> > You misunderstand the reason why I posted this. I just wanted to show
>> > that the Bibel cannot reasonably be trusted. I guess I succeeded.
>>
>> You may have shown that the "Bibel" cannot be trusted but you proved
>> that the Bible is VERY trustworthy. It clearly proved what a scam your
>> pleas for money were.
>
> You are disobeying Jesus if you do not give to anybody who is asking.
And you are sinning if you claim to know what God wants me to
do with what He has given me.
G-Net
usenet...@yahoo.de
Of course I am not a Christian. I am only stating what the Bible says:
Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give
place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay,
saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him
drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Verse 20 clearly says that Christians should comfort their enemies. If
you are a true Christian you have to do it.
> Then He opened His mouth and taught them " Mt 5:1,2
>
> the " them " are the Christians to whom the Sermon on the Mount is
> addressed... not the world at large... for they do not receive the
> things of the Spirit of God; neither can they know them...
Yeah, and Christians are told to give anybody who asks.
> you have money enough to afford a news provider.
I am not posting this for money but to show that trusting the Bible is
dangerous when applied strictly.
G-Net
news:1161108656.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
The only thing you are showing is your ignorance of both God and the
scriptures.
usenet...@yahoo.de
> > G-Net wrote:
> >> >> But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that
> >> >> we are just to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks. To do so would
> >> >> mean that we did not have sufficient means to take care of our family, our church
> >> >> or even those whom we know to be in need.
> >> >
> >> > So you admit that the Bible does not give good advice and is no
> >> > trustworthy guide.
> >>
> >> Not at all. The Bible gives great advice IF one is willing to actually
> >> take the time to read and understand it. Unfortunately, there are people who only use
> >> the Bible when they think that they can benefit financially or otherwise.
> >
> > That can happen when one's belief is based on a book which can be
> > twisted easily in all directions.
>
> No, it doesn't happen because Christianity is based on the Bible. It happens
> because people are selfish, self-centered, self-serving, arrogant, and sinful.
Christian teachings or any other religion does not necessarily make
them better. I disagree with the notion that people are bad from birth
or "sinful". They are what they are: a combination of genetic
predisposition plus mirroring what they experience and learn plus a
component of free will.
> >> > The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
> >> So we should give all of our money to you, is that it?
> >
> > According to that book, yes. Either you trust that book and obey those
> > commandments or you do not. I do not say that you should trust that book.
>
> I absolutely trust the Bible and what it says. I just don't agree that you are
> accurately communicating what the Bible says nor the context that it says it.
You would do exactly the same as you do now if you didn't have the
Bible because you are able to combine verses so that they fit with your
own opinion. You form your opinions by reasoning which is good. For
what do you need the Bible then?
> >> Maybe you should read the rest of the 66 books and then you would know
> >> that Christians were not commanded to fall for every scam artist who comes along.
> >
> > Christians are commanded to do exactly this in regard of physical
> > possessions. How can one misunderstand a clear commandment which is not
> > taken out of context:
> >
> > Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh
> > away thy goods ask them not again.
> > 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them
> > likewise.
> > 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners
> > also love those that love them.
> > 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye?
> > for sinners also do even the same.
> > 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have
> > ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
> > 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing
> > again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of
> > the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
>
> Obviously your idea of "context" (give to you), and my idea of "context"
> (use your God given brain to give to those who are REALLY in need), are not the same.
>
> Imagine that, you use the scripture for personal gain, I use the scripture
> to do what God wants me to. Seems pretty simple really.
I do not gain from this. It is not my website or paypal account.
usenet...@yahoo.de
I wonder what the poor people who actually listened to Jesus' sermon,
and heard him say "give to everyone who asks," would have thought about
the neat way you are disobeying that simple command and teaching others
to do so.
Al Klein
>Christians are commanded to do exactly this in regard of physical
>possessions. How can one misunderstand a clear commandment which is not
>taken out of context:
>Luke 6:30-35
Simple. By interpreting it to mean something it clearly doesn't.
Christians are very good at "interpreting" the Bible, which is why
there are more than 2,200 major "interpretations".
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president."
- George W. Bush, quoted in George Magazine, September, 2000
"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith,
deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by
God to save Germany."
- Hermann Goering, speaking of Hitler
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
Al Klein
<lo...@thetruth.com> wrote:
>usenet_tr...@yahoo.de wrote:
>> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>> > The Holy Spirit has guided me to open a wallet and take out a $10 bill
>> > that HE had entrusted to me to steward and to place it next to this
>> > computer work station here in this medical center building.
>> >
>> > Would gladly give this to you when we meet in person. You will have to
>> > call for an appointment and find your way to my office, however:
>>
>> The person who owns the website I quoted asked to pay by paypal.
>> "And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain."
>
>"Those who do the will of MY Father are MY family." -- LORD Jesus
>Christ
>
Usenet_trash is clearly attempting to do the work of your lord. You
are clearly attempting to thwart it by deliberately misinterpreting
your Bible. Your lord wouldn't be amused.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand
why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
Al Klein
<_giantw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:37:07 -0500, while bungee jumping,
>" Midwinter" <midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> shouted thusly:
>
>
>>"G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that
>>> we are just
>>> to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks.
>>
>>Of course it does. That's exactly what it says:
>>
>>"Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
>>turn not thou away."
>>
>>I don't see a single 'except' in that instruction. Do you?
>
>Jesus' words imply a need.
There's a difference between 'imply' and 'infer'. The words only
'imply' that you're to give to anyone who asks. What you infer from
those words is up to you.
>Why would someone borrow from me
He wasn't asking for a loan, he was asking for a gift.
>if they already have what they need?
Did Jesus tell you to question the beggar? I didn't see those words.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
- Isaac Asimov
Al Klein
<midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>By the way, what the blazes is a Rush Limbaugh?
He's a radio talk show host who's so far to the right that you'll have
to look to the left to see him coming.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so
long as I'm the dictator."
- G W Bush (Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000)
torresD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Coverup_Scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_A._Bonacci
video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggxiBWv4xYE
video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4946110250157218995
Site on which video was found.
http://www.democraticwarrior.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4153
Gavr...@mail2mrright.com
Marqueer! Stop playing with the christians and get back to licking my
nut sac and sucking my massive boobs!
Ma...@kb9rqz.net
id theft is a crime
http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Correct. Nor does HE specify either what or how to give.
Seek GOD's will through prayer and by doing HIS will, you will be at
HIS side which is the right side.
May GOD continue to keep your heart beating to give you time to
understand this, dear neighbor Mathius whom I love unconditionally.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f4dad7fe68478acf?
G-Net
news:1161110202.3...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Religion is just fluff and really could be anything from Satanic worship to
just
about anything. It's not about religion, it's not about a religious leader
or
drinking the koolaid, it's about a relationship with God.
> I disagree with the notion that people are bad from birth
> or "sinful".
You cannot see the sinful, selfish, self-centered, arroagant, morons that
is our society? You must be living in a place cut off from society.
> They are what they are: a combination of genetic predisposition
> plus mirroring what they experience and learn plus a component of
> free will.
That is your opinion which is based upon what? My opinion is based
upon God's word, scripture.
>> >> > The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
>> >> So we should give all of our money to you, is that it?
>> >
>> > According to that book, yes. Either you trust that book and obey those
>> > commandments or you do not. I do not say that you should trust that
>> > book.
>>
>> I absolutely trust the Bible and what it says. I just don't agree that
>> you are
>> accurately communicating what the Bible says nor the context that it says
>> it.
>
> You would do exactly the same as you do now if you didn't have the
> Bible because you are able to combine verses so that they fit with your
> own opinion.
Wrong again. I constantly study scripture to understand. I don't form an
opinion
and try to justify that opinion. I study scripture and try to form an
opinion based
upon what I know from scripture.
> You form your opinions by reasoning which is good. For
> what do you need the Bible then?
Again, I don't just pull stuff out of the air. I use scripture and logic to
try to
determine what God is saying and wanting. Without the Bible man is free
to do whatever whim or fancy catches his attention.
If that is true why did you fail to mention that from the start? You were
attempting
to deceive people and that makes your statements completely suspect in my
opinion.
G-Net
news:Xns985FC5100331...@216.196.109.145...
> Giant Waffle <_giantw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>I don't see a single 'except' in that instruction. Do you?
>>
>> Jesus' words imply a need.
>
> about what it *implies*?
>
>> Thus, if I am able to give it,
>> then I would give to those in need.
>
> So you'd refuse to give to someone who asked? Well, it's your choice -
> but
> you can't argue what's written in the book. Jesus instructs you to give
> to
> those who ask. In that particular passage, he says nothing about judging
> their *need*.
Like I told you before, you need to read the parable of the talents.
Christians
do have a responsibility to use what God has given them wisely, not just
throw it away when it's easy see that it was a con.
G-Net
> "G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> My Bible contains more than one verse. God gave me a mind and an
>> ability to discern a "con" when I see one. Taking one verse out of
>> context might seem to say give to anyone, anytime, for any reason but
>> again, that's not what the whole Bible says.
>
> Good! Well done! Now, if only we could get some of the holier-than-thou
> brigade to realise that posting the odd verse to prove a point doesn't
> serve any purpose at all...
But what does it hurt if someone uses scripture to emphasize why they
believe what they do? I see nothing wrong with it.
>> It is again just a rather lame attempt to personally
>> profit from God's word.
>
> Yep. That's exactly what it was. That's pretty much what the original
> poster said it was, too.
>
>> If I were to give to every scam artist who came along I would be not
>> only destitute but would be neglecting my family and others who
>> depend upon me as well.
>
> Rationalisation for keeping money for yourself?
No, it is a fact that I have people who depend upon me to provide. It's not
about "keeping money for myself" it's about being a good father, husband,
friend, church member, etc.
> What does it matter if you're destitute? The Bible says the poor are
> favoured by God.
If I were destitute that would be fine. I am not however and will not put
myself into a financial need just to satisfy some NG junkie. God has
some specific things that He has asked me to do with the resources
I have.
>> But as Christians, we are not to give so that we can get back. We are
>> to give freely and with no expectations whatsoever.
>
> But you're not giving freely, are you?
...and you know this how???? The truth is you are trying to make your
argument and you don't have any chance. I do give freely as the Lord
leads. I don't throw my resources out the window just to satisfy some
NG junkie. As I said before, it's not about what you think is right, it's
about what God thinks is right.
> You're refusing to give because in your opinion this guy doesn't
> need your money.
Yes, that is correct, he does not need the money. He is only trying to get
someone who is gullible enough to send him some so he can laugh at
them. If he could make a lot of money doing this, he would do so and
feel no remorse for it.
> So you're not only refusing to give but you're refusing because of
> your expectations.
No, I have no expectations. I just don't see a need so I don't give.
>> Yeah, HIS idea of what a true Christian is, rather than God's idea.
>> I'm not the least bit interested in what some scam artist in a NG
>> thinks a "true Christian" is. My only concern is what God's opinion of
>> me is.
>
> Yet you're here arguing your case to me. What does it matter what
> a pagan thinks of you?
Actually it doesn't matter at all. I'm only raising the point so that some
other
unsuspecting person doesn't send something.
>>> This guy's asking. And he's not asking for a loan, but a gift. So
>>> you have the choice of either giving, or turning away. Jesus'
>>> instruction didn't say "give to him that asketh thee as long as he's
>>> not using my words for selfish purposes on Usenet".
>>
>> No, and as I recall it doesn't say "Be thou gullible" either...
>
> True enough. And yet so many Christians claim that we should be blindly
> obedient to every word of the Bible.
Believing God and His word does not make one gullible. Neither does obeying
scripture make one gullible either. This is just a ploy of Satan just as he
did
in the garden when he told Adam and Eve that they would not surely die
if they ate of the fruit.
>>> True, true. It's a knotty one, isn't it?
>>
>> It isn't "knotty" (whatever that means)
>
> Well, it's a common word in Britain, meaning complex and hard to unravel.
> Like a knot. See?
I don't see it as complex or hard to unravel.
> Incidentally, if you're going to claim you don't know what a word means,
> you might wish to avoid providing an answer that clearly shows that you
> do.
I am not familiar with the word and I was honest about that. If honesty is
a problem for you I would suggest you not communicate with Christians.
>> at all. It was pretty clear to me as soon as I read the post.
>
> What was clear? That you could ignore Jesus' instruction on this occasion
> because the circumstances didn't suit you?
No, it was a sham, there was no need, anyone could easily see that.
I committed no sin by denying the bogus "need" since it did not
exist in the first place.
>> It was a scam! I don't find dishonesty interesting, I find it rather
>> sad.
>
> Dishonest, you say? I don't see that. The guy highlighted a command from
> Jesus that instructed those who claim to follow his teachings to give to
> those who asked. He then asked, pointing out that those who truly follow
> Jesus' teachings should follow that one. No bogus claims; no false
> pretences. No scam.
Obviously, we don't agree.
>> The post implied that IF one did not give to him that one was not a
>> "true Christian", that to me is an attempt to lay guilt and a misuse
>> of scripture as well.
>
> Hardly. If you know you're a true Christian then you're not guilty of not
> being. And if you're not a true Christian, then the issue's between you
> and God.
Exactly so why would a mere human make any claims that would indicate
that some may not be when in reality, he has no authority to do so?
> As for 'misuse of scripture', if I wasn't feeling so amiable about this
> thread I could quite easily point out the numerous so-called churches and
> religious leaders who've misused the scriptures over the centuries - not
> least those responsible for modern translations of the Bible.
So what? There are people from your country who have committed murder,
does that mean that everyone in the country is a murderer?
In the same way there have been people who claimed to be Christians who
have done things that are not right but that does not mean that it gives one
license to write of the entire Christian community.
> I wonder how many of those people's teachings you've accepted without a
> second thought?
How about none? I have several Bibles in several different translations as
well
as commentaries. I don't have to accept what anyone says without a "second
thought". If a Pastor or teacher says something it is very easy to check it
out
and determine if it's right or not. There is never a reason to just accept
what
someone tells you.
> If this OP has served any purpose deeper than comedy,
> it's to highlight the fact that the Bible isn't just something that can be
> taken word-for-word.
Well that is again, your opinion. I think you are lacking in knowledge of
scripture and a relationship with God so I'm not sure that you are
really qualified to make that statement.
>> Oh I see, so his scam in your eyes was an "honest" one then?
>
> Don't be silly. Scams aren't honest. But as I've said, this wasn't a
> scam. It was a request for money, with a reason why he thinks you should
> give it. So you've refused, which is your right - but in doing so, you
> HAVE disobeyed that instruction. You can't argue with that, although you
> may rationalise it, and you may be justified in doing so. But you have
> refused the instruction, general and vague as it was in the text.
I have disobeyed in your opinion, so what? In my opinion, I have only
used my God given intellect and scripture to discern a fraud and I
thank God for it.
>> Somehow I doubt if God finds sin a laughing matter.
>
> Well, that's for Him to decide, not us. Something that many Christians on
> these groups seem to find hard to grasp.
And again, so what? I find many of the non-believers to be outrageous
and over the top too.
>>> By the way, what the blazes is a Rush Limbaugh?
>>
>> I'm not even sure where this came from! He's a guy who used to be
>> either on the radio or TV. He's a conservative commentator or
>> something like that. He was in the news for some kind of addiction to
>> prescription drugs.
>
> Thanks. I'm just curious why his fan group's in the headers, is all.
Because someone posted to a NG that apparently has his name on it?
G-Net
news:1161112653....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Well I don't think I disobeyed first of all, so I think He would be very
happy that
I used my brain. Secondly, I think He would be happy that I'm not stupid
enough to throw away what resources I have but instead use them for
legitimate needs. So, all in all, I have a lot to thank God for, His leading
was there, as always.
usenet...@yahoo.de
> > G-Net wrote:
> >> No, it doesn't happen because Christianity is based on the Bible. It happens
> >> because people are selfish, self-centered, self-serving, arrogant, and sinful.
> >
> > Christian teachings or any other religion does not necessarily make
> > them better.
>
> Religion is just fluff and really could be anything from Satanic worship to just
> about anything. It's not about religion, it's not about a religious leader or
> drinking the koolaid, it's about a relationship with God.
Ok. But the problem is that religious books (like Bible, Koran, Veda,
Upanishads, Talmud, Hadith) often hinder the development of humanity if
the proponents of such books refuse to accept dependable methods of
reasoning. A real relationship with a god (assuming there exist one or
many) can not be in conflict with logic or science. Thruth cannot be in
conflict with truth.
> > I disagree with the notion that people are bad from birth or "sinful".
>
> You cannot see the sinful, selfish, self-centered, arroagant, morons that
> is our society? You must be living in a place cut off from society.
This is not what I said. I said that people are what they are: Not bad
from birth but a combination of genetic etc.
> > They are what they are: a combination of genetic predisposition
> > plus mirroring what they experience and learn plus a component of
> > free will.
>
> That is your opinion which is based upon what? My opinion is based
> upon God's word, scripture.
My opinions are based on what countless people over the course of
history have tried to determine using reason and dependable methods.
Your opinions are also primarily based on that but you also hinder
yourself by relying heavily on a particular interpretation of an
outdated book. Why do you think that this particular scripture
collection is the word of God? There are also other candidates who
claim the same. You probably believe in this book because that was the
first one about spiritual topics you were introduced to and which was
recommended by friends.
> >> >> > The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
> >> >> So we should give all of our money to you, is that it?
> >> >
> >> > According to that book, yes. Either you trust that book and obey those
> >> > commandments or you do not. I do not say that you should trust that
> >> > book.
> >>
> >> I absolutely trust the Bible and what it says. I just don't agree that you are
> >> accurately communicating what the Bible says nor the context that it says it.
> >
> > You would do exactly the same as you do now if you didn't have the
> > Bible because you are able to combine verses so that they fit with your
> > own opinion.
>
> Wrong again. I constantly study scripture to understand. I don't form an opinion
> and try to justify that opinion. I study scripture and try to form an opinion based
> upon what I know from scripture.
Ok, you study scripture first. But this is not your only source of
information. Surely you get some info from your congregation and xian
books and also did get information by education. Your opinions are not
purely based on the Bible. The interpretation of the Bible has changed
over the years and will continue to change. Of course you try to put
the Bible teachings into your life, but this is not entirely possible
because of the many contradictions and outdated customs in that book.
Different denominations teach different things as "biblical".
> > You form your opinions by reasoning which is good. For
> > what do you need the Bible then?
>
> Again, I don't just pull stuff out of the air. I use scripture and logic to try to
> determine what God is saying and wanting. Without the Bible man is free
> to do whatever whim or fancy catches his attention.
That is true with or without the Bible because everybody tries to use
logic and reason and find meaning and joy. Humans act according to what
they think will benefit them in their context.
> >> > Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh
> >> > away thy goods ask them not again. ...
> >> Imagine that, you use the scripture for personal gain, I use the scripture
> >> to do what God wants me to. Seems pretty simple really.
> > I do not gain from this. It is not my website or paypal account.
> If that is true why did you fail to mention that from the start?
Because it is not relevant. I just wanted to point out how Christians
disobey the clear teachings of their Christ.
> You were attemptingto deceive people and that makes your statements completely
> suspect in my opinion.
No deceiving. Just stating a commandment, asking something according to
it, and observing how most Christians hedge to avoid this commandment.
Al Klein
<midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>By the way, what the blazes is a Rush Limbaugh?
>>
>> He's a radio talk show host who's so far to the right that you'll have
>> to look to the left to see him coming.
>
>Sounds like a fun guy.
Pick the most right wing poster you're reading. Triple that. Limbaugh
is to the right of that. He makes Fred Stone (I don't know if you've
read any of his posts - I've had him killfiled since he lost his mind)
look like a centrist.
Fun if you want to hear stuff that you're 99% in disagreement with.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your
Christ."
- Mohandas Gandhi
Free Lunch
Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote in
<ppraj2l32tfdn63h2...@4ax.com>:
>On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:40:02 -0500, " Midwinter"
><midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>By the way, what the blazes is a Rush Limbaugh?
>>>
>>> He's a radio talk show host who's so far to the right that you'll have
>>> to look to the left to see him coming.
>>
>>Sounds like a fun guy.
>
>Pick the most right wing poster you're reading. Triple that. Limbaugh
>is to the right of that. He makes Fred Stone (I don't know if you've
>read any of his posts - I've had him killfiled since he lost his mind)
>look like a centrist.
>
>Fun if you want to hear stuff that you're 99% in disagreement with.
I remember when Limbaugh knew he was an entertainer and didn't take
himself seriously, then he started on drugs and ruined his life.
Wayne Delia
>>>
>>>>Well, almost.
>>>>http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
>>>>"This is my point:
>>>>
>>>>I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
>>>>Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
>>>>donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
>>>>only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
>>>>the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
>>>>the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks. I
>>>>have printed the full passages so as to not be accused of taking the
>>>>verses out of context. As can be seen from a careful reading, it quite
>>>>plainly implies that in so obeying this admonition of the Lord, you may
>>>>indeed be blessing someone who is evil. Let's read:
>>>>
>>>>Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
>>>>shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
>>>>40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
>>>>him have thy cloke also.
>>>>42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
>>>>turn not thou away.
>>>>43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
>>>>and hate thine enemy.
>>>>44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
>>>>good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
>>>>you, and persecute you;"
There was once a Christian posting on usenet, Doug Nelson, a very good
friend of mine who posted under the handle "Mr. D, Pstychologist." He
and I got into some very spirited (pun intended) jousting matches. I
don't remember what led up to this challenge, but I (an atheist) said
I'd be happy to act as if I was a Christian, living up to Christian
teachings and ideals, giving the impression that I believed in Jesus,
the whole nine yards - on receipt of ten thousand dollars in a certified
bank check made out to the Joe and Lisa Delia College Fund. Doug took me
up on the challenge, and set up a collection point and repository for
donations solicited on usenet based on the same verses you're quoting
here. It was Doug who made the appeal, not me, and of the ten thousand
dollars, he ended up collecting under $50 - and most of that was
contributed by himself. The lack of support from so many Christians was
an indication to him that people only gave "lip service" to those types
of commandments, while not actually acting in accordance with them,
because it was too inconvenient. Doug's faith in Christians and
Christianity took a tumble, and he became an atheist. I haven't heard
from him in several years; I miss that interaction, because at the time,
he had a faith he was willing to put into action, which is much more
than I can say for most Christians.
>>>But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that we
>>>are
>>>just to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks. To do so would mean
>>>that we
>>>did not have sufficient means to take care of our family, our church or
>>>even
>>>those whom we know to be in need.
Tough. When Jesus tells you to do something in order to be a follower of
His, or in order to get into heaven, you don't start making wussy
excuses like these. He gives that commandment in Matthew 19:21, Mark
10:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke 18:22. Go look 'em up.
>>So you admit that the Bible does not give good advice and is no
>>trustworthy guide.
>
> Not at all. The Bible gives great advice IF one is willing to actually take
> the time to
> read and understand it. Unfortunately, there are people who only use the
> Bible when they think that they can benefit financially or otherwise.
It would benefit someone financially if they disobeyed Jesus's
commandments in Matthew 19:21; Luke 12:33, and Luke 18:22. In fact,
anyone retaining ownership of any possessions at all would violate those
commandments while benefitting financially over someone who obeyed those
commandments.
>>>Secondly, asking in a NG is pretty bogus in my opinion because no one has
>>>anyway
>>>of really knowing who you are or whether this is some scam. You could
>>>already
>>>be a millionair or at least be a person of above average means.
The Internet has only been around for two decades, but word-of-mouth
scams and con games have been around for millennia. One is just as
likely to be promoting a scam in a Usenet post over the past twenty
years as anyone else doing it the traditional way for the past two
thousand years.
>>>To give my money
>>>to someone who is NOT needy means that I have less money to give to those
>>>who I know are.
According to Jesus in Matthew 19:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke 18:22, you're
not supposed to have any possessions at all. You're supposed to give
EVERYTHING to the poor.
>>The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
This is true, and it would apply even to those who ask for money in a
scam. Good point.
> So we should give all of our money to you, is that it?
Well, yes, if you believe Jesus in Matthew 19:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke
18:22. Not necessarily all of your money; he's just asking for ten
dollars from each Christian. So you're really trying to prop up a
strawman argument here. The point of Jesus's teaching is that yes,
you're supposed to give away all your money to the poor after selling
all your possessions. Have you done so? If not, I don't see how you can
expect Jesus to be happy with that slacker attitude of yours.
A typical apologetic is that Jesus restricted that particular
commandment to the rich young man who asked what would be necessary for
him to get into heaven, and that the commandment doesn't apply to anyone
else. That's a very poor defense, though: one could state with equal
logical basis that the Ten Commandments only applied to the Hebrews at
the time of the Exodus, so the commandments such as "Thou shalt not
kill" not only don't apply to us today, we won't be punished if we do
kill. Obviously, an absurd argument, just as the apologetic defense of
Matthew 19:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke 18:22 is similarly absurd.
> Maybe you should read the rest
> of the 66 books and then you would know that Christians were not commanded
> to fall for every scam artist who comes along.
Maybe you should read Matthew 19:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke 18:22, and
then report to your nearest hospital for a foot-ectomy. It's jammed in
your mouth all the way up to your knee.
>>>If this is legitamate then go to your church and ask people who know you
>>>for help.
>>
>>You misunderstand the reason why I posted this. I just wanted to show
>>that the Bibel cannot reasonably be trusted. I guess I succeeded.
>
> You may have shown that the "Bibel" cannot be trusted but you proved
> that the Bible is VERY trustworthy.
Can you spot the contradiction in that sentence? A book that cannot be
trusted contains no trustworthiness. Also, nothing he said at all
"proved" the Bible is VERY trustworthy at all. Is English your primary
language?
> It clearly proved what a scam your pleas for money were.
First, I noticed that others have already pointed out that his "pleas
for money" were honest and plainly stated, with no deception intended at
all. Second, you've not responded to the criticism that Jesus said "Do
not resist the evil" which would imply that even if it was a scam, you
were to participate anyway.
You didn't do too terribly well on this one.
WMD
Wayne Delia
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:27:34 -0500, while bungee jumping,
> " Midwinter" <midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> shouted thusly:
>
>
>
>>Giant Waffle <_giantw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
>>
>>Actually, he isn't. Jesus' instruction is clear. If someone asks, don't
>>refuse. He's asking, so it's beholden on those who follow Jesus'
>>instructions to accept.
>>
>>This poster is clearly taking the piss - that's obvious. But even so, his
>>logic here is impeccable.
>
> According to you, based on your assumption that Jesus
> was promoting the idea of anybody asking anybody,
> no matter what their circumstances.
But Jesus wasn't promoting the idea of anybody asking anybody - it was
clearly a context of anybody asking Christians. Jesus also said "Do not
resist the evil," which obviously is a stupid strategy, whether it's
allowing yourself to be slapped on the face without defense, or allowing
yourself to be taken in a con game.
WMD
Wayne Delia
> usenet_tr...@yahoo.de wrote:
>
>>Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>>
>>>The Holy Spirit has guided me to open a wallet and take out a $10 bill
>>>that HE had entrusted to me to steward and to place it next to this
>>>computer work station here in this medical center building.
>>>
>>>Would gladly give this to you when we meet in person. You will have to
>>>call for an appointment and find your way to my office, however:
>>
>>The person who owns the website I quoted asked to pay by paypal.
>
> Christ
That's odd. There are 20 different searchable online versions of the
Bible at www.biblegateway.com. I searched each one of them for the
keywords "those", "will", "father", and "family". About 15 came up with
the message 'Sorry. No results found for "those will father family" in
Keyword Search.' The other five sources returned only Old Testament
verses, in which Jesus was not speaking.
So I'll call your bluff. In what version, book, chapter, and verse did
Jesus say the above quote? Or were you simply "channeling" Jesus when
you wrote that? Is that allowable? Jesus told me to tell you you're an
asshole.
> Amen !
Fuck Yeah!
> Laus Deo ! !
(That's Latin for "Lousy God!")
Agnus and her sister Doris Dei!
Qui tollis pecatta-ra-ra-boom-de-ay!
Kimosabe, watchum what you sayum!
Lord, have mercy on my sol-o!
(PDQ Bach)
> Marana tha ! ! !
Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimbel in the wabe,
If you wonder why I talk like this
I cut my lip while trying to shabe.
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/175b5dc947a0781f?
>
> May GOD continue to show you HIS infinite mercy and grace by keeping
> your heart beating to give you time to understand this, dear neighbor
> Mathias whom I love unconditionally.
>
> Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
>
> Andrew <><
That's pretty much a form letter, isn't it, Wang? I mean, you just
substitute the name of whoever you're responding to in that tired ol'
boilerplate, right?
WMD
Wayne Delia
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:37:07 -0500, while bungee jumping,
> " Midwinter" <midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> shouted thusly:
>
>
>
>>"G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that
>>>we are just
>>>to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks.
>>
>>
>>"Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
>>turn not thou away."
>>
>
> Jesus' words imply a need.
Actually, there's no implication of need at all.
> Thus, if I am able to give it,
> then I would give to those in need.
If you've got anything at all, then you have to sell it and give it to
those in need according to Matthew 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke 12:33, and
Luke 18:22. Have you done that yet? If not, I don't blame you. That was
pretty piss-poor financial planning advice from Jesus.
> Why would someone
> borrow from me, if they already have what they need?
BORROW? Who said anything about "borrow"? Jesus said give to those who
ask of you, and He said nothing about any conditional need requirement.
WMD
ath...@home.com
wrote:
><usenet...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
>news:1161092022.6...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>> Well, almost.
>> http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
>> "This is my point:
>>
>> I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
>> Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
>> donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
>> only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
>> the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
>> the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks. I
>> have printed the full passages so as to not be accused of taking the
>> verses out of context. As can be seen from a careful reading, it quite
>> plainly implies that in so obeying this admonition of the Lord, you may
>> indeed be blessing someone who is evil. Let's read:
>>
>> Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
>> shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
>> 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
>> him have thy cloke also.
>> 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
>> 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
>> turn not thou away.
>> 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
>> and hate thine enemy.
>> 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
>> good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
>> you, and persecute you;"
>
>But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that we are
>just
>to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks. To do so would mean that we
>did not have sufficient means to take care of our family, our church or even
>those
>whom we know to be in need.
Matthew 6
28 And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field
grow. They do not labor or spin.
29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was
dressed like one of these.
30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here
today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more
clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we
drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'
32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father
knows that you need them.
33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these
things will be given to you as well.
34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry
about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
>Secondly, asking in a NG is pretty bogus in my opinion because no one has
>anyway
>of really knowing who you are or whether this is some scam.
Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
<snip>
>If this is legitamate then go to your church and ask people who know you
>for help.
>If the people who you actually see and know deny you then you may have a
>case
>for saying that they are not obeying the scriptures. I'm sure that there are
>other
>churches in your community as well that you could talk to about giving you
>some
>financial assistance.
>
>But please don't attempt to lay a guilt trip on total strangers who have no
>way of
>knowing you or your situation.
Matthew 25
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,
ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his
angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye
gave me no drink:
43 *I was a stranger* and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me
not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison,
and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch
as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the
righteous into life eternal.
>The other thing I would caution you on is that God
>knows everything, including your situation. IF you are attempting a con, HE
>will know it...
He also knows when you refuse to obey his commandments.
You can twist the scriptures all you want in an effort to con yourself
or others but you can't con Him.
Can you?
atheist@home#1554
>
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > usenet_tr...@yahoo.de wrote:
> >
> >>Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> >>
> >>>The Holy Spirit has guided me to open a wallet and take out a $10 bill
> >>>that HE had entrusted to me to steward and to place it next to this
> >>>computer work station here in this medical center building.
> >>>
> >>>Would gladly give this to you when we meet in person. You will have to
> >>>call for an appointment and find your way to my office, however:
> >>
> >>The person who owns the website I quoted asked to pay by paypal.
> >>"And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain."
> >
> > "Those who do the will of MY Father are MY family." -- LORD Jesus
> > Christ
>
> That's odd. There are 20 different searchable online versions of the
> Bible at www.biblegateway.com. I searched each one of them for the
> keywords "those", "will", "father", and "family". About 15 came up with
> the message 'Sorry. No results found for "those will father family" in
> Keyword Search.' The other five sources returned only Old Testament
> verses, in which Jesus was not speaking.
>
> So I'll call your bluff. In what version, book, chapter, and verse did
> Jesus say the above quote?
In the Holy Spirit, this is what I witnessed Jesus say to a crowd when
someone told HIM that HIS family was outside wanting to speak to HIM.
For the context, see Matthew 12:46-50.
> Or were you simply "channeling" Jesus when
> you wrote that?
No.
> Is that allowable?
The Holy Spirit is GOD.
> Jesus told me to tell you you're an
> asshole.
"Jesus remains in heaven at the right hand of the Father." -- Holy
Spirit
Amen !
Laus Deo ! ! !
Marana tha ! ! ! ! ! !
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4b0ed0f59d4114aa?
May GOD continue to show you HIS infinite mercy and grace by keeping
your heart beating to give you time to understand this, dear neighbor
Wayne whom I love unconditionally.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
mariposas rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges
> So I'll call your bluff. In what version, book, chapter, and verse did
> Jesus say the above quote? Or were you simply "channeling" Jesus when
> you wrote that? Is that allowable? Jesus told me to tell you you're an
> asshole.
its a paraphrase of matthew 12 50
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood
outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers
are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to
his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does
the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
meow arf meow - they are performing horrible experiments in space
major grubert is watching you - beware the bakalite
there can only be one or two - the airtight garage has you neo
Don Kresch
<_giantw...@yahoo.com> let us all know that:
>On 17 Oct 2006 06:33:42 -0700, while bungee jumping,
>usenet...@yahoo.de shouted thusly:
>
>
>>Well, almost.
>>http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
>>"This is my point:
>>
>>I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
>>Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
>>donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
>>only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
>>the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
>>the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks.
>
>You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
Bullshit. He's using it correctly. Pay up.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
Zooropa
joe wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2006 06:33:42 -0700, usenet...@yahoo.de wrote:
>
> >Well, almost.
> >http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
> >"This is my point:
> >
> >I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
> >Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
> >donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
> >only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
> >the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
> >have printed the full passages so as to not be accused of taking the
> >verses out of context. As can be seen from a careful reading, it quite
> >plainly implies that in so obeying this admonition of the Lord, you may
> >indeed be blessing someone who is evil. Let's read:
> >
> >Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
> >shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
> >40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
> >him have thy cloke also.
> >41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
> >42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
> >turn not thou away.
> >43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
> >and hate thine enemy.
> >44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
> >good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
> >you, and persecute you;"
>
>
> the opening verse to this Sermon on the Mount... " And seeing the
> multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His
> disciples came to Him.
>
> Then He opened His mouth and taught them " Mt 5:1,2
>
> the " them " are the Christians to whom the Sermon on the Mount is
> addressed... not the world at large... for they do not receive the
> things of the Spirit of God; neither can they know them...
>
Oh the convinience of it all....I heard a guy on the Christian channel
not 3 months ago use this scripture to get people to donate money to
his ministry...
ath...@home.com
wrote:
><usenet...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
>news:1161098931....@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> G-Net wrote:
>>> <usenet...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
>>> news:1161092022.6...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>>> But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that we
>>> are
>>> just to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks. To do so would mean
>>> that we
>>> did not have sufficient means to take care of our family, our church or
>>> even
>>> those whom we know to be in need.
>>
>> So you admit that the Bible does not give good advice and is no
>> trustworthy guide.
>
<snip>
>So we should give all of our money to you, is that it? Maybe you should read
>the rest
>of the 66 books and then you would know that Christians were not commanded
>to
>fall for every scam artist who comes along.
And yet you trust the word of people who lived thousands of years ago;
people you have obviously ever met and whose claims you cannot verify;
people who in fact insist that you become as a little child because
only someone with the gullibility of a child can believe what those
people claim to be true.
I know that reads as offensive to you but that isn't the intent.
I just don't know of any other way to say it.
And many, if not most of us have read those 66 books and others that
exist as well as having studied religion more than most Christians.
I seriously doubt you could hold up well against us in a rational
debate regarding your religion and would most likely at some point,
when you realize you don't have a logical answer to a claim or
question do as most believers do.
Fold your hands over your belly, smile that self satisfied smile and
say "Well sometimes you just have to trust in faith."
Believing of course that you had just said something terribly wise.
Gullibility is not and never has been a virtue.
It is a weakness in human nature that is cultivated by priests,
politicians and every other type con artist out there to convince us
that the lie is the truth and the impossible possible.
It is your life however, and your mind.
It is your right to do with them as you will.
atheist@home#1554
<snip>
ath...@home.com
<_giantw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 17 Oct 2006 06:33:42 -0700, while bungee jumping,
>usenet...@yahoo.de shouted thusly:
>
>
>>Well, almost.
>>http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
>>"This is my point:
>>
>>I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
>>Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
>>donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
>>only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
>>the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
>>the gospel of Luke, that Christians should give to everyone who asks.
>
>You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
Not this one.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of
thee turn not thou away.
And another:
Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions
and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."
There are more if you are interested.
atheist@home#1554
Wayne Delia
>
>>"G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that
>>>we are just
>>>to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks.
>>
>>
>>turn not thou away."
>>
>
> discern a "con" when I see one.
I haven't read that far ahead in this thread, so I'm guessing that
someone else has already asked you "Then what the hell are you doing in
Christianity, if you think you can discern a con?" Christianity is, in
fact, the biggest blatant con game known to mankind - the "confidence"
required is that you must unquestioningly believe the truth of
unfalsifiable premises and unsubstantiated promises of huge rewards for
eternity which are only realizable after a person is dead. While he's
alive, though, he's on the hook for unwavering loyalty, monetary tithes,
significant amounts of time and energy spent in support of the church,
and a fairly serious compromising of intellectual integrity.
In exactly the same manner, you must have complete "confidence" that the
shady-looking character actually owns the Brooklyn Bridge he's offering
to sell you at an attractive price. If you don't have that complete
"confidence", he won't sell it to you and you'll miss your chance. It's
all a con game, whether it's the Brooklyn Bridge or eternal salvation.
> Taking one verse out of context might seem
> to say give to anyone, anytime, for any reason but again, that's not what
> the whole Bible says.
What DOES the whole Bible say in support of your argument? Be specific,
with chapter, verse, and surrounding verses for context. You've already
been given that information from us to support our side of the argument;
it's the least you could do in return.
The most common, weakest, and dishonest apologetic argument is "Waah.
You're taking it out of context." If you want to hide behind those
skirts, you'll need to provide the proper context, along with your
reasoning why you believe it's the proper context.
> It is again just a rather lame attempt to personally profit
> from God's word.
Notice how many people professing to be Christians make entire careers
and build televangelism network empires are doing exactly that?
>>>To do so would mean that we did not have sufficient means to take care
>>>of our family, our church or even those whom we know to be in need.
>>
>>So YOU get to be the judge of who's in need? Where does it say that?
>
> I am a steward of what God entrusted me with. All that I own, all that I
> possess, all my talents and abilities are all God given for a purpose.
Yes. And that purpose for all that you own, all that you possess, is
made crystal clear by Jesus in Matthew 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke 12:33,
and Luke 18:22 - you were supposed to sell them all, and give the money
to the poor.
> I was (as all are),
> given a mind and an ability to ask for discernment from God. If I were to
> give to every scam artist who came along I would be not only destitute but
> would be neglecting my family and others who depend upon me as well.
I assume you haven't actually sold all you have and given the money to
the poor, for the same reason: you would not only be destitute but would
be neglecting your family and others who depend on you as well. I'm
happy to hear that you used your God-given discernment to realize that
Jesus telling you to sell all you have and give all the money to the
poor was a scam.
> I am the "judge" if you will of what I do with the recources that God has
> given me.
And you've "judged" that Jesus is essentially full of shit when He
taught that you were supposed to sell all you have and give the money to
the poor. Good for you!
> Have you read the parable of the talents? That would be a good place to
> start....
That's a stupid parable. The master told the worker described as having
the least ability "Well then, you should have put my money on deposit
with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back
with interest." (Matthew 25:27) But Deuteronomy 23:19-20 reads "Do not
charge your brother interest, whether on money or food or anything else
that may earn interest. You may charge a foreigner interest, but not a
brother Israelite, so that the LORD your God may bless you in everything
you put your hand to in the land you are entering to possess." So the
master expected the worker with the least ability to put the single
talent on deposit with foreign bankers while he was gone? That's just
stupid.
>>And besides, what you give you'll get back:
>>
>>"He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which
>>soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully." - 2 Corinthians 9:6
>
> But as Christians, we are not to give so that we can get back. We are to
> give freely and with no expectations whatsoever.
And with no conditions whatsoever, if Jesus is to be believed. But you
were fairly quick to put all sorts of conditions on whether you would
give ten dollars to a person who asked for ten dollars.
>>>Secondly, asking in a NG is pretty bogus in my opinion because no one
>>>has anyway of really knowing who you are or whether this is some
>>>scam
>>
>>Yes we do. We know it is. Well, not so much a 'scam', because it's not
>>trying to deceive anyone: the poster's just asking for money, and
>>indicating why true Christians should hand it over.
I would have to agree: a scam involves deception, and this scenario
plays not on deception, but rather on a direct, honest challenge to
Christians to act as Jesus said they should.
> Yeah, HIS idea of what a true Christian is, rather than God's idea.
Or rather than Jesus's idea. Imagine that, Jesus thinks that a Christian
should sell all he has and give all the money to the poor! What a
bullshit artist Jesus was.
> I'm not the least bit interested in what some scam artist in a NG thinks
> a "true Christian" is. My only concern is what God's opinion of me is.
Jesus's opinion of you is that you should sell all your possessions and
give the money to the poor. How are you coming along with that effort?
>>>You could already be a millionair or at least be a person of above
>>>average means.
>>
>>Could be. He certainly hasn't claimed otherwise. But then, the
>>instruction quoted says nothing about that, does it? All it says is:
>>
>>"Give to him that asketh thee".
>>
>>This guy's asking. And he's not asking for a loan, but a gift. So you
>>have the choice of either giving, or turning away. Jesus' instruction
>>didn't say "give to him that asketh thee as long as he's not using my
>>words for selfish purposes on Usenet".
>
> No, and as I recall it doesn't say "Be thou gullible" either...
There are quite a few verses in the New Testament which belittle wisdom
and intelligence, in favor of blind faith and obedience of God's word.
It would certainly be a wise thing to avoid scams and con games,
wouldn't it? 1 Corinthians 3:18-19 lays waste to that advice, saying "Do
not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the
standards of this age, he should become a fool so that he may become
wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it
is written: 'He catches the wise in their craftiness.'"
>>>To give my money to someone who is NOT needy means that I have less
>>>money to give to those who I know are.
>>
>>True, true. It's a knotty one, isn't it?
>
> It isn't "knotty" (whatever that means), at all. It was pretty clear to me
> as soon as I read the post.
Good for you for avoiding scams like "Give me ten dollars" and "Sell all
your possessions, and give the money to the poor."
>>>If this is legitamate
>>
>>It's not. But it is quite interesting, don't you think?
>
> It was a scam! I don't find dishonesty interesting, I find it rather sad.
I'd disagree. It's not as if he asked for ten dollars from every
Christian, on the basis of a claimed need which wasn't actually the
case. That wouldn't be legitimate. Rather, he was up front and asked for
the money as a challenge to Christians to act in the manner Jesus taught
them to act. Not many, if any, rose to the challenge - which says a lot
about how much stock Christians put in Jesus's more inconvenient teachings.
>>>But please don't attempt to lay a guilt trip on total strangers
>>
>>Guilt trip? He did no such thing. It's one of the most honest begging
>>posts I've ever seen: "I want money, please give me some".
>
> The post implied that IF one did not give to him that one was not a
> "true Christian", that to me is an attempt to lay guilt and a misuse
> of scripture as well.
It could be seen as a guilt trip, but the guilt is part and parcel of
Christianity (particularly Catholicism). There is no misuse of Scripture
at all; it's just a dismay on your part that you're uncomfortable being
asked to live up to the teachings of your religion.
>>He's not made any reference to dying relative; someone who desperately
>>needs an operation; poor kiddie who can't get a decent education;
>>disabled family member; bureaucratic injustice; neglected veteran
>>struggling for a living from the country he fought for; or any of the
>>usual bulldung we get fed by those who want our cash.
>
> Oh I see, so his scam in your eyes was an "honest" one then?
Yes, indeed, and as such, you're making a mistake in characterizing it
as a "scam". The actual honesty is that he's gauging the degree to which
Christians would adhere to Jesus's teachings in the matter of giving to
those who ask.
>>>IF you are attempting a con, HE will know it...
>>
>>And hopefully, it's given Him a much-needed laugh, too. There must be
>>precious few of those for Him around here.
>
> Somehow I doubt if God finds sin a laughing matter. The Devil probably
> finds it rather amusing though.
You've got to stop imagining roles for make-believe characters.
WMD
Wayne Delia
> On 17 Oct 2006 06:33:42 -0700, usenet...@yahoo.de wrote:
>
>
>>Well, almost.
>>http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/06/no-true-christians.php
>>"This is my point:
>>
>>I am asking everyone that reads this article and calls him or herself a
>>Christian, to click on the pay pal logo on the main website page and
>>donate $10.00. I adjure every Christian reader to do this for one and
>>only one reason, namely, because I am asking. I am asking according to
>>the plain words of Jesus as quoted in both the gospel of Matthew and
>>have printed the full passages so as to not be accused of taking the
>>verses out of context. As can be seen from a careful reading, it quite
>>plainly implies that in so obeying this admonition of the Lord, you may
>>indeed be blessing someone who is evil. Let's read:
>>
>>Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
>>shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
>>40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
>>him have thy cloke also.
>>41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
>>turn not thou away.
>>43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
>>and hate thine enemy.
>>44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
>>good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
>>you, and persecute you;"
>
Problem is, Jesus didn't specifically exclude panhandlers when He said
to give to anyone who asks, nor did He say the person who asks had to be
a Christian.
> you convienently left out
> the opening verse to this Sermon on the Mount... " And seeing the
> multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His
> disciples came to Him.
>
> Then He opened His mouth and taught them " Mt 5:1,2
I think it was "conveniently" left out because it was completely
"irrelevant".
> the " them " are the Christians to whom the Sermon on the Mount is
> addressed... not the world at large... for they do not receive the
> things of the Spirit of God; neither can they know them...
Similarly, the people to whom the Ten Commandments were given were
Hebrews during the time of the Exodus. Thus, those rules only apply to
them, and not to us. So you gotta figure we won't get punished at all if
we break "Thou shalt not kill," right?
> you have money enough to afford a news provider.
Not necessarily. He could conceivably be destitute, and posts from a
free Internet account at a public library. But let's assume he isn't,
and for that matter, let's also assume you are not destitute, having
money enough to afford a "news provider" (actually, an Internet service
provider including access to usenet).
Why are you wasting your money on an ISP, when Jesus commanded you to
sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor?
WMD
Al Klein
wrote:
>The only thing you are showing is your ignorance of both God and the
>scriptures.
Since no man can know the mind of God a claim to know the scriptures
is a claim to not know God.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is
a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the
crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due
to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious
indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility
corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of
nature and of our own being."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, from article by
Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
ath...@home.com
<midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>"G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> My Bible contains more than one verse. God gave me a mind and an
>> ability to discern a "con" when I see one. Taking one verse out of
>> context might seem to say give to anyone, anytime, for any reason but
>> again, that's not what the
>> whole Bible says.
>
>Good! Well done! Now, if only we could get some of the holier-than-thou
>brigade to realise that posting the odd verse to prove a point doesn't
>serve any purpose at all...
>
>
>> It is again just a rather lame attempt to personally
>> profit from God's word.
>
>Yep. That's exactly what it was. That's pretty much what the original
>poster said it was, too.
>
>
>> If I were to give
>> to every scam artist who came along I would be not only destitute but
>> would be neglecting my family and others who depend upon me as well.
>
>Rationalisation for keeping money for yourself? What does it matter if
>you're destitute? The Bible says the poor are favoured by God.
>
>
>> But as Christians, we are not to give so that we can get back. We are
>> to give freely and with no expectations whatsoever.
>
>But you're not giving freely, are you? You're refusing to give because in
>your opinion this guy doesn't need your money. So you're not only
>refusing to give but you're refusing because of your expectations.
>
>
>> Yeah, HIS idea of what a true Christian is, rather than God's idea.
>> I'm not the least bit interested in what some scam artist in a NG
>> thinks a "true Christian" is. My only concern is what God's opinion of
>> me is.
>
>Yet you're here arguing your case to me. What does it matter what a pagan
>thinks of you?
>
>
>>> This guy's asking. And he's not asking for a loan, but a gift. So
>>> you have the choice of either giving, or turning away. Jesus'
>>> instruction didn't say "give to him that asketh thee as long as he's
>>> not using my words for selfish purposes on Usenet".
>>
>> No, and as I recall it doesn't say "Be thou gullible" either...
>
>True enough. And yet so many Christians claim that we should be blindly
>obedient to every word of the Bible.
Luke 18:17
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God
as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
It's a demand that the believer be gullible.
It can't mean innocence because according to the belief we are all
born with sinful natures and in need of redemption.
And God did drown little children in the deluge as well as killed them
in other ways because of inherited sin.
Numbers 31
14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the
captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from
the battle.
15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of
Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and
there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every
woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with
him, keep alive for yourselves.
Of course, as was then, and still is the custom in some savage
cultures the little girls were raped.
Not a lot of respect for the innocence of childhood there.
atheist@home#1554
<snip>
ath...@home.com
wrote:
How very Christian of you.
The guy is a total jerk isn't he?
Has Jesus been demoted and you promoted in His place as Judge?
You know Satan made the mistake of trying to elevate himself above God
and God got very irritated.
You might want to reconsider your position here.
Like the man said "Your arms are too short to box with God."
atheist@home#1554
<snip>
ath...@home.com
wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:37:07 -0500, " Midwinter"
><midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>By the way, what the blazes is a Rush Limbaugh?
>
>He's a radio talk show host who's so far to the right that you'll have
>to look to the left to see him coming.
Lol!
It's true :-)
atheist@home#1554
Al Klein
wrote:
><usenet...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
>news:1161110202.3...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> G-Net wrote:
>> Christian teachings or any other religion does not necessarily make
>> them better.
>Religion is just fluff and really could be anything from Satanic worship to just
>about anything. It's not about religion, it's not about a religious leader or
>drinking the koolaid, it's about a relationship with God.
That's just bagpipe playing. What makes your version any different
than any other version?
>> They are what they are: a combination of genetic predisposition
>> plus mirroring what they experience and learn plus a component of
>> free will.
>That is your opinion which is based upon what? My opinion is based
>upon God's word, scripture.
You're assuming that everyone has your a priori assumptions. To
others your "God's word" is just a book written by primitives.
>> You would do exactly the same as you do now if you didn't have the
>> Bible because you are able to combine verses so that they fit with your
>> own opinion.
>Wrong again. I constantly study scripture
Same error. "Study scripture" to those outside your religion means
"do what I want".
>> You form your opinions by reasoning which is good. For
>> what do you need the Bible then?
>Again, I don't just pull stuff out of the air. I use scripture and logic to
>try to determine what God is saying and wanting. Without the Bible man is free
>to do whatever whim or fancy catches his attention.
And with it he's free to interpret it according to "whatever whim or
fancy catches his attention".
A distinction without a difference.
>>> Imagine that, you use the scripture for personal gain, I use the
>>> scripture to do what God wants me to. Seems pretty simple really.
>> I do not gain from this. It is not my website or paypal account.
>If that is true why did you fail to mention that from the start? You were
>attempting to deceive people and that makes your statements completely suspect in my
>opinion.
Only deceptive people can be deceived. He was merely proving that
you'd "interpret" your "God's Word" any way you liked - which is
exactly what you did.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"A truly unselfish act would be a Christian volunteering to have his soul take your
soul's place in hell, so yours could go to Heaven. Don't hold your breath."
- John Popelish
Uncle Vic
Midwinter wrote:
> Giant Waffle <_giantw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
>
> refuse. He's asking, so it's beholden on those who follow Jesus'
> instructions to accept.
>
Does Jesus follow his own instructions? On numerous occasions I have
asked Jesus in prayer to appear before me in the flesh, to prove his
existence to me. He will not do it. I know, your friends have told me
that I cannot put God to the test, but in the Bible, Jesus appeared in
the flesh to over 500 witnesses to do just what I was asking him to do
- to prove to me that he was resurrected. And the Bible also says that
if I am sincere, I will receive what I pray for.
I asked, and Jesus refused.
Jesus is a hypocrite, and he is unworthy of our worship. Why do you
worship a hypocrite?
Uncle Vic
Wayne Delia
>
>>G-Net wrote:
>>>Not at all. The Bible gives great advice IF one is willing to actually
>>>take the time to
>>>read and understand it. Unfortunately, there are people who only use the
>>>Bible
>>>when they think that they can benefit financially or otherwise.
>>
>>That can happen when one's belief is based on a book which can be
>>twisted easily in all directions.
>
> No, it doesn't happen because Christianity is based on the Bible.
And the Bible includes teachings of Jesus, one of which is "Give to
those who ask of you." So what's the big deal?
> It happens
> because people are selfish, self-centered, self-serving, arrogant, and
> sinful.
That's why people aren't flocking to the website to make PayPal
donations to the guy who asked for ten dollars from every Christian.
>>>>The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
>>>
>>>So we should give all of our money to you, is that it?
Not all your money to one specific person (it's only $10.00 he's asking
for from you), but yes, you should eventually give all your money to the
poor, according to Jesus.
>>According to that book, yes. Either you trust that book and obey those
>>commandments or you do not. I do not say that you should trust that
>>book.
>
> I absolutely trust the Bible and what it says. I just don't agree that you
> are
> accurately communicating what the Bible says nor the context that it says
> it.
OK, you asked for it:
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=sell+give+poor+&qs_version=31
shows the following three verses:
1. Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your
possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.
Then come, follow me."
2. Mark 10:21
Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said.
"Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have
treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
3. Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for
yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be
exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
4. Luke 18:22
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing.
Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have
treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Those are from the NIV (the default version at www.biblegateway.com), so
if you think there's anything inaccurate about the communication of
those verses, feel free to pick any other version.
>>>Maybe you should read the rest of the 66 books and then you would know
>>>that Christians
>>>were not commanded to fall for every scam artist who comes along.
>>
>>Christians are commanded to do exactly this in regard of physical
>>possessions. How can one misunderstand a clear commandment which is not
>>taken out of context:
>>
>>Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh
>>away thy goods ask them not again.
>>31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them
>>likewise.
>>32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners
>>also love those that love them.
>>33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye?
>>for sinners also do even the same.
>>34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have
>>ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
>>35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing
>>again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of
>>the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
>
> Obviously your idea of "context" (give to you), and my idea of "context"
> (use your
> God given brain to give to those who are REALLY in need), are not the same.
That's true. He's right, and you're wrong. The Bible verses he provided
indicate Christians are supposed to give to those who ask, and says
nothing about your responsibility of determining whether a person is
running a scam.
> Imagine that, you use the scripture for personal gain, I use the scripture
> to do what God wants me to. Seems pretty simple really.
Then you've already sold all your possessions and given the money to the
poor, as Jesus commanded in the four verses I referenced above? You
don't have a cent, nor a pot to piss in? Pardon me if I don't believe you.
>>>>>If this is legitamate then go to your church and ask people who know
>>>>>you for help.
Again, there's no restriction on how the "ask" must be done. It could be
done in person at a church (can you imagine the reaction? Stunned,
uncomfortable silence, a cough or two, perhaps a well-meaning old lady
reaching in her purse for a one-dollar bill, the preacher abruptly going
ahead with the next part of the service - all pretty embarrassing). It
could be asked as a panhandler on the street, in possible violation of
local laws. It could be a request on usenet, or on any number of blogs,
web pages, and message boards on the Internet. You seem to be fishing
for any excuse to avoid paying up.
>>>>You misunderstand the reason why I posted this. I just wanted to show
>>>>that the Bibel cannot reasonably be trusted. I guess I succeeded.
>>>
>>>You may have shown that the "Bibel" cannot be trusted but you proved
>>>that the Bible is VERY trustworthy. It clearly proved what a scam your
>>>pleas for money were.
>>
>>You are disobeying Jesus if you do not give to anybody who is asking.
>
> And you are sinning if you claim to know what God wants me to
> do with what He has given me.
That's very surprising and disappointing. You're using the claim that
someone else, not necessarily a Christian, is sinning - as an excuse for
your own sinning of not following the teachings of Jesus. Further,
you're actually "bearing false witness" about what the other guy is
doing that's supposedly sinful: nowhere did he ever claim to know what
God wants you to do with what He gave you. You're literally bringing
false charges against the guy, in violation of the Ninth Commandment.
Finally, all he's doing is taking Jesus's plain teachings at their face
value, while you're arguing that the words can be interpreted in a way
that somehow gets you off the hook of doing what the words say you
should do. That can't be good.
WMD
Wayne Delia
> "joe" <n...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:cr3aj2dqcg714fsus...@4ax.com...
>>the opening verse to this Sermon on the Mount... " And seeing the
>>multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His
>>disciples came to Him.
>>
>> Then He opened His mouth and taught them " Mt 5:1,2
>>
>>addressed... not the world at large... for they do not receive the
>>things of the Spirit of God; neither can they know them...
>>
>
Translation: "YAY! Somebody else out there agrees with me, even though
his argument is completely irrelevant! Thank God!"
WMD
Wayne Delia
>>joe wrote:
>>>you have money enough to afford a news provider.
>>
>>I am not posting this for money but to show that trusting the Bible is
>>dangerous when applied strictly.
>
> The only thing you are showing is your ignorance of both God and the
> scriptures.
Just not in any way you can demonstrate. This was an ideal opportunity
for you to do so, such as "You've referenced the verses X, Y, and Z, and
you've concluded W. But nothing in those verses implies W, and in order
to get there, you need to assume or establish V, which hasn't been done,
so your conclusion isn't warranted."
You didn't supply any such counter-argument. Maybe you, too, are
ignorant of both God and the scriptures.
WMD
Wayne Delia
> On 17 Oct 2006 10:11:17 -0700, usenet...@yahoo.de wrote:
>
>
>>Christians are commanded to do exactly this in regard of physical
>>possessions. How can one misunderstand a clear commandment which is not
>>taken out of context:
>
>
> Simple. By interpreting it to mean something it clearly doesn't.
> Christians are very good at "interpreting" the Bible, which is why
> there are more than 2,200 major "interpretations".
Good to see you back on usenet, Al.
If you're referring to distinct denominations and sects within
denominations based on differing Bible interpretations, the number is
closer to 20,000 in a 1980 survey, and a later Time Magazine survey put
the number as approaching 30,000.
Some of those Christian sects differ on the interpretation of a single
verse.
WMD
Uncle Vic
Giant Waffle wrote:
> My heart rejoices in the Lord; My horn is exalted in the Lord.
Your horn? What, your dick? Does the LORD give you an erection? Why
do you think we want to hear about that, pervert?
Uncle Vic
Wayne Delia
>
>>Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>>
>>>usenet_tr...@yahoo.de wrote:
>>>
>>>>Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The Holy Spirit has guided me to open a wallet and take out a $10 bill
>>>>>that HE had entrusted to me to steward and to place it next to this
>>>>>computer work station here in this medical center building.
>>>>>
>>>>>Would gladly give this to you when we meet in person. You will have to
>>>>>call for an appointment and find your way to my office, however:
>>>>
>>>>The person who owns the website I quoted asked to pay by paypal.
>>>
>>
>>The word does not say to give only to family or those in need but just
>>to anybody who asks, even the evil.
>
> Correct. Nor does HE specify either what or how to give.
Gwah? In Matthew 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke 18:22, "HE"
specifies what to give ("Sell all your possessions and give all the
money to the poor.") That pretty much covers everything.
> Seek GOD's will through prayer and by doing HIS will, you will be at
> HIS side which is the right side.
Judging from your website and medical practice, such as it is, it's
clear you haven't done "HIS" will by selling everything you have and
giving all the money to the poor, right down to your little stethoscope.
I get a kick out of putting pronouns about God in all capital letters
(even just capitalizing the first letter, as is my custom). It reminds
me of Dom DeLuise's character in Cannonball Run II. He was a bit psycho,
occasionally lapsing into his fantasy alter-ego, Captain Chaos, and he
always referred to himself in the third person: "HIM is here."
> May GOD continue to keep your heart beating to give you time to
> understand this, dear neighbor Mathius whom I love unconditionally.
OK, so this isn't a form letter where you substitute the name of the
person in there? You just call everyone "Mathius"? Reminds me of an old,
crazy bum in Poughkeepsie who called everyone "Clyde".
> Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
>
> Andrew <><
> --
> Andrew B. Chung
> Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
> http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
Again, do you mind if I call you "Wang"? As in "Wang" Chung? That would
be such a cool nickname.
WMD
> As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
> unconditional love they have for everyone <braaaap>
Shaddup already, Wang!
Al Klein
wrote:
>" Midwinter" <midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:Xns985FC7C8AAF2...@216.196.109.145...
>> "G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> My Bible contains more than one verse. God gave me a mind and an
>>> ability to discern a "con" when I see one. Taking one verse out of
>>> context might seem to say give to anyone, anytime, for any reason but
>>> again, that's not what the whole Bible says.
>>
>> Good! Well done! Now, if only we could get some of the holier-than-thou
>> brigade to realise that posting the odd verse to prove a point doesn't
>> serve any purpose at all...
>
>But what does it hurt if someone uses scripture to emphasize why they
>believe what they do? I see nothing wrong with it.
So it's bad to take a verse out of context if you're a non-Christian
emphasizing why you believe what you believe, but it's okay to take a
verse out of context if you're a Christian emphasizing why you believe
what you believe.
I must have missed that verse.
>>> If I were to give to every scam artist who came along I would be not
>>> only destitute but would be neglecting my family and others who
>>> depend upon me as well.
>> Rationalisation for keeping money for yourself?
>No, it is a fact that I have people who depend upon me to provide. It's not
>about "keeping money for myself" it's about being a good father, husband,
>friend, church member, etc.
But if he really needed the money, you say, you'd have given it to
him, so it's not at all about your needing it, it's about your not
wanting to give it to him.
>> What does it matter if you're destitute? The Bible says the poor are
>> favoured by God.
>If I were destitute that would be fine. I am not however and will not put
>myself into a financial need just to satisfy some NG junkie.
Even though that's EXACTLY what Jesus told you to do.
> God has some specific things that He has asked me to do with the resources
>I have.
I'd think that what he asked you to do in the Bible would be
paramount. That's plain and easy to understand. Rationalizing that
he wants you to spend the money on yourself and your family isn't that
plain.
>> You're refusing to give because in your opinion this guy doesn't
>> need your money.
>Yes, that is correct, he does not need the money.
Jesus told you not to judge, and to give money without regard to need,
so you're NOT following the Bible, you're making it up as you go.
>> So you're not only refusing to give but you're refusing because of
>> your expectations.
>No, I have no expectations. I just don't see a need
That's "your expectations". That's what happens when you rationalize
piety.
>> Yet you're here arguing your case to me. What does it matter what
>> a pagan thinks of you?
>Actually it doesn't matter at all. I'm only raising the point so that some
>other unsuspecting person doesn't send something.
But that's up to that "other unsuspecting person" to decide, isn't it?
Who appointed you "Grand Decider for Everyone"?
>> True enough. And yet so many Christians claim that we should be blindly
>> obedient to every word of the Bible.
>Believing God and His word does not make one gullible.
Which verse tells us that?
>Neither does obeying scripture make one gullible either. This is just a ploy of Satan
How do you know it's not a test from God? You're now deciding what's
God and what's Satan? Who do you think you are?
>>>> True, true. It's a knotty one, isn't it?
>>> It isn't "knotty" (whatever that means)
>> Well, it's a common word in Britain, meaning complex and hard to unravel.
>> Like a knot. See?
>I don't see it as complex or hard to unravel.
The Bible says "give" - unconditionally. You rationalize why you
shouldn't give. The only "knotty" thing here is how little of a
Christian you really are.
You don't obey Jesus, you decide that words of God are words of Satan.
What's your next trick?
>> Incidentally, if you're going to claim you don't know what a word means,
>> you might wish to avoid providing an answer that clearly shows that you
>> do.
>I am not familiar with the word and I was honest about that.
Then you showed that you knew exactly what it meant.
> If honesty is a problem for you
Your lack of it would seem to be, but only to you.
>>> at all. It was pretty clear to me as soon as I read the post.
>> What was clear? That you could ignore Jesus' instruction on this occasion
>> because the circumstances didn't suit you?
>No, it was a sham, there was no need, anyone could easily see that.
The Bible doesn't mention need, though. Who are you to decide what
Jesus meant?
>I committed no sin by denying the bogus "need" since it did not
>exist in the first place.
You were commanded to give, not to give to those in need. The sin is
not only disobedience, but pride and arrogance.
>Obviously, we don't agree.
Obviously you and Jesus don't agree.
>In the same way there have been people who claimed to be Christians who
>have done things that are not right
Like refusing to obey Jesus, then lying and rationalizing about it.
> but that does not mean that it gives one
>license to write of the entire Christian community.
No, just those who are obviously lying about being Christian.
>> If this OP has served any purpose deeper than comedy,
>> it's to highlight the fact that the Bible isn't just something that can be
>> taken word-for-word.
>Well that is again, your opinion. I think you are lacking in knowledge of
>scripture and a relationship with God so I'm not sure that you are
>really qualified to make that statement.
Says someone who openly defies an edict of God.
>I have disobeyed in your opinion, so what? In my opinion, I have only
>used my God given intellect and scripture to discern a fraud and I
>thank God for it.
Where in the Bible does it tell you to use your opinion about which
parts to obey and which to rationalize away? You must follow John:22
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so
long as I'm the dictator."
- G W Bush (Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000)
Al Klein
wrote:
>Well I don't think I disobeyed first of all, so I think He would be very
>happy that
>I used my brain.
That must be in Luke:25
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the structure of the world
insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."
- Letter to S. Flesch, April 16, 1954; Einstein Archive 30-1154
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
Al Klein
<lov...@thetruth.com> wrote:
>Correct. Nor does HE specify either what or how to give.
Aside from your clothes.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be under-
stood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can
comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of
humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."
- 1954 or 1955; quoted in Dukas and Hoffman _Albert Einstein the Human Side_, p. 39
Wayne Delia
> " Midwinter" <midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Xns985FC7C8AAF2...@216.196.109.145...
>
>>"G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>My Bible contains more than one verse. God gave me a mind and an
>>>ability to discern a "con" when I see one. Taking one verse out of
>>>context might seem to say give to anyone, anytime, for any reason but
>>>again, that's not what the whole Bible says.
>>
>>Good! Well done! Now, if only we could get some of the holier-than-thou
>>brigade to realise that posting the odd verse to prove a point doesn't
>>serve any purpose at all...
>
> But what does it hurt if someone uses scripture to emphasize why they
> believe what they do? I see nothing wrong with it.
That's poorly phrased: it sounds as if any Christian attempting to
defend his faith is perfectly justified in pulling out odd random verses
of the Bible, but any atheist/skeptic/cynic who does the same in a
manner not flattering to God or the Bible is accused of "taking it out
of context."
>>>It is again just a rather lame attempt to personally
>>>profit from God's word.
>>
>>Yep. That's exactly what it was. That's pretty much what the original
>>poster said it was, too.
>>
>>>If I were to give to every scam artist who came along I would be not
>>>only destitute but would be neglecting my family and others who
>>>depend upon me as well.
>>
>>Rationalisation for keeping money for yourself?
>
> No, it is a fact that I have people who depend upon me to provide. It's not
> about "keeping money for myself" it's about being a good father, husband,
> friend, church member, etc.
Luke 14:26 reads "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and
mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his
own life—he cannot be my disciple."
So let's get this straight: Jesus says you're to do a certain thing. You
fail to do it, because you wouldn't be doing right by people whom Jesus
tells you you're supposed to hate?
Not for nothing, but as a Bible-believing, Jesus-following Christian,
you sorta suck.
WMD
Ben Kaufman
>Well, almost.
<SNIP>
No, you're correct. If they were true then they would be Booleans.
Ben
William T. Goat
G-Net wrote:
> Religion is just fluff and really could be anything from Satanic worship to
> just
> about anything. It's not about religion, it's not about a religious leader
> or
> drinking the koolaid, it's about a relationship with God.
>
> Again, I don't just pull stuff out of the air. I use scripture and logic to
> try to
> determine what God is saying and wanting. Without the Bible man is free
> to do whatever whim or fancy catches his attention.
What kind of "relationship with God" can you possibly have, if God
doesn't even speak to you directly, and you have to rely on scripture
and logic to try and figure out what God says and wants? How is that a
"relationship"?
--Billy
jke...@zoomnet.net
Wayne Delia
> " Midwinter" <midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Xns985FC7C8AAF2...@216.196.109.145...
>>What does it matter if you're destitute? The Bible says the poor are
>>favoured by God.
>
> If I were destitute that would be fine.
Evidently you're not destitute, therefore you're not favored by God, and
you see that as an advantage? I might actually agree with you there: God
has a nasty tendency to beat the shit out of His "Chosen People" from
time to time, so if God somehow favored me, I'd be watching my back.
> I am not however and will not put
> myself into a financial need just to satisfy some NG junkie.
That was the reasoning behind Matthew 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke 12:33, and
Luke 18:22 - in order to get into heaven, you need to put yourself into
a complete financial need which you otherwise wouldn't want to do.
> God has
> some specific things that He has asked me to do with the resources
> I have.
The specific thing, according to Matthew 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke 12:33,
and Luke 18:22, is to sell all you have, and give the money to the poor.
How are you progressing with that assignment?
>>>But as Christians, we are not to give so that we can get back. We are
>>>to give freely and with no expectations whatsoever.
>>
>>But you're not giving freely, are you?
>
> ...and you know this how????
Well, we assumed you were telling the truth above there, when you said
"I am not however and will not put myself into a financial need just to
satisfy some NG junkie." If you were bullshitting us, that's fine, but
it tends to chip away at any credibility you might have otherwise had.
> The truth is you are trying to make your
> argument and you don't have any chance. I do give freely as the Lord
> leads.
So you've sold all you have and given all the money to the poor? I call
bullshit.
> I don't throw my resources out the window just to satisfy some
> NG junkie.
That's a shame, because he asked for it, and Jesus said for you to give
to anyone who asked. Guess Jesus feels just a little bit slighted over
your rejection of His teachings.
> As I said before, it's not about what you think is right, it's
> about what God thinks is right.
Now I'm confused... God thinks it's right for you to second-guess what
God specifically teaches and commands in the Bible? But it's not OK for
non-Christians to do that, I assume.
>>You're refusing to give because in your opinion this guy doesn't
>>need your money.
>
> Yes, that is correct, he does not need the money. He is only trying to get
> someone who is gullible enough to send him some so he can laugh at
> them. If he could make a lot of money doing this, he would do so and
> feel no remorse for it.
At least try to understand your own words that you are posting here. "He
is only trying to get someone who is gullible enough to send him some so
he can laugh at them." Gullible enough by what standard? Gullible, in
fact extremely gullible, to actually believe what Jesus said in the
Bible. That's a pretty damning indictment of the teachings of Jesus, in
fact the bedrock and cornerstone of Christianity writ large (Paul's
nonsense notwithstanding) that people who believe what Jesus taught are
"gullible" according to other Christians such as yourself.
>>So you're not only refusing to give but you're refusing because of
>>your expectations.
>
> No, I have no expectations. I just don't see a need so I don't give.
Jesus said you should give to those who ask of you. You don't see a need
to pay attention to Jesus's instructions? Are most other Christians as
cavalier about your presumed Savior of Mankind as you are?
>>>Yeah, HIS idea of what a true Christian is, rather than God's idea.
>>>I'm not the least bit interested in what some scam artist in a NG
>>>thinks a "true Christian" is. My only concern is what God's opinion of
>>>me is.
>>
>>Yet you're here arguing your case to me. What does it matter what
>>a pagan thinks of you?
>
> Actually it doesn't matter at all. I'm only raising the point so that some
> other unsuspecting person doesn't send something.
Good for you! "Don't be gullible! Don't believe Jesus! Don't send this
guy money! It's inconvenient, and a poor financial strategy! Money
talks, and bullshit walks, and Jesus was talkin' bullshit!"
>>>>This guy's asking. And he's not asking for a loan, but a gift. So
>>>>you have the choice of either giving, or turning away. Jesus'
>>>>instruction didn't say "give to him that asketh thee as long as he's
>>>>not using my words for selfish purposes on Usenet".
>>>
>>>No, and as I recall it doesn't say "Be thou gullible" either...
>>
>>True enough. And yet so many Christians claim that we should be blindly
>>obedient to every word of the Bible.
>
> Believing God and His word does not make one gullible.
Jesus said (in "God's word") that you should give to anyone who asks.
You characterized anyone who actually did that as "gullible" above.
You've contradicted yourself.
> Neither does obeying
> scripture make one gullible either.
Then why did you classify people who give to those who ask, as Jesus
taught, as "gullible" just a few sentences ago?
> This is just a ploy of Satan just as he did
> in the garden when he told Adam and Eve that they would not surely die
> if they ate of the fruit.
As it turned out, they did not die. In fact, Adam is said to have died
eight hundred years later. Satan was telling the truth. That was a very,
very bad analogy to use.
>>>>True, true. It's a knotty one, isn't it?
>>>
>>>It isn't "knotty" (whatever that means)
>>
>>Well, it's a common word in Britain, meaning complex and hard to unravel.
>>Like a knot. See?
>
> I don't see it as complex or hard to unravel.
But as your sentence continued below, you seemed to understand that
which you implied you didn't understand (by stating "whatever that means").
>>Incidentally, if you're going to claim you don't know what a word means,
>>you might wish to avoid providing an answer that clearly shows that you
>>do.
>
> I am not familiar with the word and I was honest about that. If honesty is
> a problem for you I would suggest you not communicate with Christians.
I've known plenty of Christians who lie out their ass, figuring Jesus
will forgive them if they convince themselves they're lying for Jesus.
You claim to not be familiar with the word, but you continued on to
write "It was pretty clear to me as soon as I read the post," meaning it
didn't qualify as "knotty", which you wouldn't have known if you were
honest about not knowing what "knotty" meant. You're one of those
less-than-completely-honest Christians, aren't you?
>>>at all. It was pretty clear to me as soon as I read the post.
>>
>>What was clear? That you could ignore Jesus' instruction on this occasion
>>because the circumstances didn't suit you?
>
> No, it was a sham,
Where's the sham? The original request was for ten dollars from every
Christian, according to Jesus's teaching to give to anyone who asked. No
sham at all there.
> there was no need, anyone could easily see that.
So what? Jesus said nothing about gauging how much of a need was
involved. He simply said to give freely to those who ask.
> I committed no sin by denying the bogus "need" since it did not
> exist in the first place.
You committed a sin by inventing a "need" criteria that Jesus did not
teach in that particular instruction. Essentially, you're
second-guessing Jesus, and I don't see how you expect Him to be happy
about that.
>>>It was a scam! I don't find dishonesty interesting, I find it rather
>>>sad.
>>
>>Dishonest, you say? I don't see that. The guy highlighted a command from
>>Jesus that instructed those who claim to follow his teachings to give to
>>those who asked. He then asked, pointing out that those who truly follow
>>Jesus' teachings should follow that one. No bogus claims; no false
>>pretences. No scam.
>
> Obviously, we don't agree.
Just as obviously, Midwinter has explained his position, and you haven't
explained your position. I'm going to go ahead and conclude that you're
a "cafeteria Christian," picking and choosing among the teachings of
Jesus that are convenient for you to follow, while ignoring the
teachings that are painful or inconvenient. That's about as hypocritical
as you could get.
>>>The post implied that IF one did not give to him that one was not a
>>>"true Christian", that to me is an attempt to lay guilt and a misuse
>>>of scripture as well.
>>
>>Hardly. If you know you're a true Christian then you're not guilty of not
>>being. And if you're not a true Christian, then the issue's between you
>>and God.
>
> Exactly so why would a mere human make any claims that would indicate
> that some may not be when in reality, he has no authority to do so?
The "mere human" is simply pointing out that people who claim to be
followers of Jesus are not actually following Jesus. I'm an atheist, and
am really not encumbered by the rules, regulations, and religious dogma
of any particular theology, so I am free to call a spade a spade.
>>As for 'misuse of scripture', if I wasn't feeling so amiable about this
>>thread I could quite easily point out the numerous so-called churches and
>>religious leaders who've misused the scriptures over the centuries - not
>>least those responsible for modern translations of the Bible.
>
> So what? There are people from your country who have committed murder,
> does that mean that everyone in the country is a murderer?
>
> In the same way there have been people who claimed to be Christians who
> have done things that are not right but that does not mean that it gives one
> license to write of the entire Christian community.
I'm sorry, I can't hear your argument over the braying of bagpipes in
the background. (That's a reference to the "No True Scotsman" logical
fallacy you're employing here.)
>>I wonder how many of those people's teachings you've accepted without a
>>second thought?
>
> How about none? I have several Bibles in several different translations as
> well
> as commentaries. I don't have to accept what anyone says without a "second
> thought". If a Pastor or teacher says something it is very easy to check it
> out
> and determine if it's right or not. There is never a reason to just accept
> what
> someone tells you.
That much is evident, as you've clearly rejected one or two (or more)
things that Jesus tried to teach you.
>>If this OP has served any purpose deeper than comedy,
>>it's to highlight the fact that the Bible isn't just something that can be
>>taken word-for-word.
>
> Well that is again, your opinion. I think you are lacking in knowledge of
> scripture and a relationship with God so I'm not sure that you are
> really qualified to make that statement.
Bullshit. The only knowledge we need of Scripture in this instance is
what it says in the passages where Jesus teaches you're supposed to give
freely to those who ask. We can also point out that you don't feel in
any particular way obligated to follow that teaching, since you refuse
to give $10.00 freely at the PayPal link on the website, because your
own practicality and convenience supersedes Jesus's teachings. We're
perfectly capable of pointing out that hypocrisy.
>>>Oh I see, so his scam in your eyes was an "honest" one then?
>>
>>Don't be silly. Scams aren't honest. But as I've said, this wasn't a
>>scam. It was a request for money, with a reason why he thinks you should
>>give it. So you've refused, which is your right - but in doing so, you
>>HAVE disobeyed that instruction. You can't argue with that, although you
>>may rationalise it, and you may be justified in doing so. But you have
>>refused the instruction, general and vague as it was in the text.
>
> I have disobeyed in your opinion, so what?
Well, for starters, it's a very poor reflection on Christianity. You,
presumably, consider yourself one of those "true Christians," not one of
those past or current church evil-doers you excluded with your "No True
Scotsman" logical fallacy above. So, in a public newsgroup forum, here's
a loud example of a Christian who probably honestly thinks he's a
Christian, while at the same time flagrantly disobeying direct, simple,
easy to understand teachings of Jesus because they're painful or
inconvenient. Man, if that's the way Christians behave, that's the last
thing I'd want to become.
> In my opinion, I have only
> used my God given intellect and scripture to discern a fraud and I
> thank God for it.
The fraud you've found, though, is in the Bible itself - giving freely
to anyone who asks is terrible advice. So you're thanking God that you
aren't being taken in by a fraud in the Bible, masquerading as a
teaching of Jesus? That's one of those bizarre lunatic-fringe Christian
cults or something, isn't it?
>>>Somehow I doubt if God finds sin a laughing matter.
>>
>>Well, that's for Him to decide, not us. Something that many Christians on
>>these groups seem to find hard to grasp.
>
> And again, so what? I find many of the non-believers to be outrageous
> and over the top too.
Yeah - damn those unbelievers for pointing out your hypocrisy.
WMD
Wayne Delia
>
>>G-Net wrote:
>>
>>><usenet...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
>>>news:1161108656.4...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>>joe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>the " them " are the Christians to whom the Sermon on the Mount is
>>>>>addressed... not the world at large... for they do not receive the
>>>>>things of the Spirit of God; neither can they know them...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>you have money enough to afford a news provider.
>>>>
>>>>I am not posting this for money but to show that trusting the Bible is
>>>>dangerous when applied strictly.
>>>
>>>The only thing you are showing is your ignorance of both God and the
>>>scriptures.
>>
>>and heard him say "give to everyone who asks," would have thought about
>>the neat way you are disobeying that simple command and teaching others
>>to do so.
>
> Well I don't think I disobeyed first of all, so I think He would be very
> happy that I used my brain.
You used your brain to determine that He was bullshitting you when He
said to give freely to anyone who asks. I don't see how you can expect
Jesus to be happy with that conclusion.
> Secondly, I think He would be happy that I'm not stupid
> enough to throw away what resources I have but instead use them for
> legitimate needs.
In Matthew 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke 18:22, Jesus taught
that you were to sell all you have, and give all the money to the poor.
Luckily for you, you're not stupid enough to listen to Jesus, you're
"not stupid enought ot throw away what resources you have but instead
use them for legitimate needs." And you think Jesus would be happy about
that? Man, you must think Jesus is an idiot. (Maybe He is.)
> So, all in all, I have a lot to thank God for, His leading
> was there, as always.
His teachings inspired you to draw your own conclusions, and the
conclusion you reached was not to listen to His teachings at all. Beautiful.
WMD
Wayne Delia
>
>>Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>>
>>>usenet_tr...@yahoo.de wrote:
>>>
>>>>Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The Holy Spirit has guided me to open a wallet and take out a $10 bill
>>>>>that HE had entrusted to me to steward and to place it next to this
>>>>>computer work station here in this medical center building.
>>>>>
>>>>>Would gladly give this to you when we meet in person. You will have to
>>>>>call for an appointment and find your way to my office, however:
>>>>
>>>>The person who owns the website I quoted asked to pay by paypal.
>>>>"And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain."
>>>
>>>"Those who do the will of MY Father are MY family." -- LORD Jesus
>>>Christ
>>
>>Bible at www.biblegateway.com. I searched each one of them for the
>>keywords "those", "will", "father", and "family". About 15 came up with
>>the message 'Sorry. No results found for "those will father family" in
>>Keyword Search.' The other five sources returned only Old Testament
>>verses, in which Jesus was not speaking.
>>
>>So I'll call your bluff. In what version, book, chapter, and verse did
>>Jesus say the above quote?
>
> In the Holy Spirit, this is what I witnessed Jesus say to a crowd when
> someone told HIM that HIS family was outside wanting to speak to HIM.
You do realize, of course, that Jesus was killed a little less than 2000
years ago, and you're (presumably) not quite that old? Your claim that
you "witnessed Jesus say to a crowd" tends to characterize you as, how
shall we say, a lunatic?
> For the context, see Matthew 12:46-50.
OK, cool - I can see now that you got a little overenthusiastic, and you
were just paraphrasing what Jesus said in verse 50. I'm still a little
concerned that you think you were an eyewitness to the occasion when
Jesus said it.
>>Or were you simply "channeling" Jesus when
>>you wrote that?
>
> No.
"Paraphrasing" would be more accurate.
>>Is that allowable?
>
> The Holy Spirit is GOD.
My question was soliciting a "Yes" or "No" answer. You provided neither.
>>Jesus told me to tell you you're an
>>asshole.
>
> "Jesus remains in heaven at the right hand of the Father." -- Holy
> Spirit
"...from whence Jesus said to say that Wang Chung is an asshole." --
Holy Spirit
> Amen !
Fuck Yeah!
> Laus Deo ! ! !
Lousy God ! ! !
> Marana tha ! ! ! ! ! !
"My wife's name? Ethel. Ethel Thayer. Thoundth like I'm lithping,
doethn't it?" (Henry Fonda, in "On Golden Pond")
WMD
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > usenet...@yahoo.de wrote:
> >>Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> >>>usenet_tr...@yahoo.de wrote:
> >>>>Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>The Holy Spirit has guided me to open a wallet and take out a $10 bill
> >>>>>that HE had entrusted to me to steward and to place it next to this
> >>>>>computer work station here in this medical center building.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Would gladly give this to you when we meet in person. You will have to
> >>>>>call for an appointment and find your way to my office, however:
> >>>>
> >>>>The person who owns the website I quoted asked to pay by paypal.
> >>>>"And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain."
> >>>
> >>>"Those who do the will of MY Father are MY family." -- LORD Jesus
> >>>Christ
> >>
> >>The word does not say to give only to family or those in need but just
> >>to anybody who asks, even the evil.
> >
> > Correct. Nor does HE specify either what or how to give.
>
> Gwah?
Not for the cited Scriptural verse Matthew 5:42.
See the OP of this thread
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.christnet.christianlife/msg/5219284c7931daa7?
<rest of post read, coveting noted, forgiven, and snipped>
Message for you:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a4dee2b3057fe9ec?
May GOD continue to mercifully keep your heart beating to give you time
to understand this, dear neighbor Wayne whom I love unconditionally.
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f4dad7fe68478acf?
Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f4dad7fe68478acf?
Liz
news message <_adZg.4695$5v5.3673@trndny08> wrote:
[----]
>
>Yes, that is correct, he does not need the money. He is only trying to get
>someone who is gullible enough to send him some so he can laugh at
>them. If he could make a lot of money doing this, he would do so and
>feel no remorse for it.
I think it is more of the case that he will laugh at those True
Christians® who do not send him money. At least, I am laughing your
excuses.
Liz #658 BAAWA
I could not believe that anyone who had read this book
would be so foolish as to proclaim that the Bible in every
literal word was the divinely inspired, inerrant word of
God? Have these people simply not read the text? Are they
hopelessly uninformed? Is there a different Bible? Are
they blinded by a combination of ego needs and naivete?
-- Bishop John Shelby Spong!
G-Net
news:1161138187.4...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Midwinter wrote:
>> Giant Waffle <_giantw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > You are misusing the passage. That's what you're doing.
>>
>> Actually, he isn't. Jesus' instruction is clear. If someone asks, don't
>> refuse. He's asking, so it's beholden on those who follow Jesus'
>> instructions to accept.
>>
> Does Jesus follow his own instructions? On numerous occasions I have
> asked Jesus in prayer to appear before me in the flesh, to prove his
> existence to me. He will not do it.
Let me ask you a question. Why do you need Jesus to appear "before" you
in the first place? Do you not believe that He exists? Do you not believe
that he was crucified and rose three days later? To put it another way,
do you feel that Jesus (the author and creator of all), needs to prove
His existence to you?
I ask these questions because I hope that in the questions you will see
that you are asking Jesus to do something for selfish reasons. You see,
He has given us His word and He does answer prayer BUT, that prayer
has to be according to God's will, not our own. For example, if I prayed
for a Mercedes Benz, do you think God would give it to me? What if
I prayed for one million dollars? I could rationalize that I would use the
car to take others places and I could rationalize the money to say that
I would use it for others too but in all likelihood God is not going to
give me what I requested because my motives were wrong.
> I know, your friends have told me that I cannot put God to the test,
> but in the Bible, Jesus appeared in the flesh to over 500 witnesses
> to do just what I was asking him to do to prove to me that he was
> resurrected. And the Bible also says that if I am sincere, I will
> receive what I pray for.
In Jesus day, they did not have the Bible per se. Jesus appeared to many
people so that His ministry would be started. He did not appear to prove
His existence because there were many people who saw Him in person
and were witnesses to His ministry.
You are asking for the wrong thing for all the wrong reasons. If you don't
believe in God, then you don't believe and that is your choice. It's not
the Lord's job to convince you of His existence. He offers a free gift but
it's your job to read, study, and pray for understanding so that you can
accept that gift. In the end, if we choose not to believe, we are sentencing
ourselves to hell because of our unbelief and disobedience.
> I asked, and Jesus refused.
I don't think it's fair to say that he refused because that would imply that
Jesus verbally told you "no". If Jesus verbally told you "no" then that
would
be proof of His existence and there would be no need for Him to appear to
you personally.
> Jesus is a hypocrite, and he is unworthy of our worship. Why do you
> worship a hypocrite?
>
> Uncle Vic
I again don't think that it's fair to say that Jesus is a hypocrit because
he didn't
do as you asked. As I mentioned earlier in this post, there is nothing
scriptural
to support that God will grant us anything and everything we ask when it is
asked with wrong motives, for wrong reasons, or with unbelief. God is not a
Santa Clause and He does not exist for us rather, we exist for and because
of Him. It is only our sinfulness that makes us think that God owes us
anything. In reality we owe Him everything.
G-Net
news:1161127204.2...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...>> news:1161110202.3...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> > G-Net wrote:
>> >> No, it doesn't happen because Christianity is based on the Bible. It
>> >> because people are selfish, self-centered, self-serving, arrogant, and
>> >> sinful.
>> >
>> > them better.
>>
>> to just
>> about anything. It's not about religion, it's not about a religious
>> leader or
>> drinking the koolaid, it's about a relationship with God.
>
> Upanishads, Talmud, Hadith) often hinder the development of humanity if
> the proponents of such books refuse to accept dependable methods of
> reasoning. A real relationship with a god (assuming there exist one or
> many) can not be in conflict with logic or science. Thruth cannot be in
> conflict with truth.
The Bible is the only truth. Those other books you mention are NOT of God.
Secondly, the Bible in no way hinders the development of humanity. The
only reason that anyone thinks that is because people (like many in this
NG), use the Bible for their own selfish reasons. They could care less what
God is saying or what God wants for them.
Man is sinful and falls terribly short of God's standard. So man's "logic"
or
"science" is imperfect. Man's arrogance and sinfulness leads him to
believe that his logic or science is better or more true than what God
has told us in the Bible. Man has been falling for this lie ever since the
devil deceived Adam and Eve in the Garden.
>> > I disagree with the notion that people are bad from birth or "sinful".
>>
>> You cannot see the sinful, selfish, self-centered, arroagant, morons that
>> is our society? You must be living in a place cut off from society.
>
> This is not what I said. I said that people are what they are: Not bad
> from birth but a combination of genetic etc.
Well, I guess we disagree then. To me it is obvious that man is sinful,
arrogant
boastful, proud, selfish, lustful, perverted and self-centered just as the
Bible
says he is.
>> > They are what they are: a combination of genetic predisposition
>> > plus mirroring what they experience and learn plus a component of
>> > free will.
>>
>> That is your opinion which is based upon what? My opinion is based
>> upon God's word, scripture.
>
> My opinions are based on what countless people over the course of
> history have tried to determine using reason and dependable methods.
That's my point exactly! Man has used his own devices rather than God's.
Because of man's sinful nature, he thinks that he knows more than God.
> Your opinions are also primarily based on that but you also hinder
> yourself by relying heavily on a particular interpretation of an
> outdated book.
I don't believe the Bible is outdated. Every time I read a passage it takes
on new
and more important meaning. God's word has changed my life and the lives of
countless millions of people, for the better. I have never read another book
that
has made that kind of difference.
> Why do you think that this particular scripture collection is the word of
> God?
Well first off, the Bible says that it is the word of God. Secondly, as I
said above,
the Bible isn't just a book but it can change a person's life, IF they will
read,
study, and pray as they are supposed to.
> There are also other candidates who claim the same.
There are other books and other people who make many claims. This is the
work of the devil and is meant to confuse people. There is a battle that we
cannot see because it does not exist in the physical realm, only in the
spiritual. The devil has things that mimic the things of God only he has
made minor yet significant changes to them. The Bible is one example of
this phenomena in the form of the other books that you mentioned. The
other books "look" like they could be the real thing but are not the same
and so mislead many people away from God.
> You probably believe in this book because that was the first one about
> spiritual topics you were introduced to and which was recommended by
> friends.
You know many people who are unbelievers always try to tell me that I must
have
been brought up in a Christian home (I wasn't), or that my friends
introduced me
to church (they didn't), or that I was in a youth group (I wasn't), or they
try to
say some other way that I was "indoctrinated" into Christianity. The truth
is that
none of those things happened at all. I didn't really get into church or
become a
Christian until my 5 year old became a Christian and I saw what a change it
made in his life. It was his transformation and his belief and godly wisdom
(which he still has today), that made me realize that there was more to
all of this than I had ever before thought.
>> >> >> > The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
>> >> >> So we should give all of our money to you, is that it?
>> >> >
>> >> > According to that book, yes. Either you trust that book and obey
>> >> > those
>> >> > commandments or you do not. I do not say that you should trust that
>> >> > book.
>> >>
>> >> I absolutely trust the Bible and what it says. I just don't agree that
>> >> you are
>> >> accurately communicating what the Bible says nor the context that it
>> >> says it.
>> >
>> > You would do exactly the same as you do now if you didn't have the
>> > Bible because you are able to combine verses so that they fit with your
>> > own opinion.
>>
>> Wrong again. I constantly study scripture to understand. I don't form an
>> opinion
>> and try to justify that opinion. I study scripture and try to form an
>> opinion based
>> upon what I know from scripture.
>
> Ok, you study scripture first. But this is not your only source of
> information. Surely you get some info from your congregation and xian
> books and also did get information by education.
I do have Christian friends as well as my son and daughter-in-law that are
very wise
and knowledgable people. We have weekly discussions and we value each
other's
opinions and understanding of scripture. And yes, I did take some classes
because
at one point I was thinking of becoming a pastor. All of that was years
after I
became a Christian though.
But even at that, I still go back to scripture to verify what I think is
correct. So even if
a friend, pastor, etc. tried to tell me something that was "bogus", the
scripture would
make that clear.
> Your opinions are not purely based on the Bible. The interpretation of the
> Bible
> has changed over the years and will continue to change.
The Bible has changed over the years? That's a new one on me. I have Bibles
from many
years ago and they are the same as the new one I bought not too long ago.
Even when
I look at the many different translations, I don't see where they differ
from each other.
Oh, sure different translations say things in a different way but the
meaning remains
the same.
> Of course you try to put the Bible teachings into your life, but this is
> not entirely
> possible because of the many contradictions and outdated customs in that
> book.
> Different denominations teach different things as "biblical".
I do try to put biblical concepts and teachings in my life but I'm not
perfect and I fall
very short. The issue is not whether one sins but what they do when they sin
that
God is concerned about. One of the concepts that has been very helpful with
this issue is godly friends and being accountable to those friends. But yes,
I have to
repent daily for what I mess up.
I think you are wrong about different denominations teaching different
things as
biblical. There are some off beat "churches" who teach some things that are
just
not in the Bible but anyone who reads their Bible can easily see that what
they
are teaching is wrong and they should not attend that church anymore. Most
of
the "mainstream" churches have essentially the same teachings what they
mostly differ on is how those teachings are applied. But again, I wouldn't
just
blindly follow a church leader when I knew that what they were teaching was
not in the scripture. This is where the believer has to be in prayer and ask
God
for wisdom.
In the end, we are all personally responsible for our spiritual journey and
for
our own salvation. The Bible says that we are all to work out our own
salvation with fear and trembling (paraphrased). It's our own job in other
words, not someone else's. God has given us the instructions and told us
how to be a Christian and how to be saved, it's up to us whether we are
going to listen and apply it or ignore God.
>> > You form your opinions by reasoning which is good. For
>> > what do you need the Bible then?
>>
>> Again, I don't just pull stuff out of the air. I use scripture and logic
>> to try to
>> determine what God is saying and wanting. Without the Bible man is free
>> to do whatever whim or fancy catches his attention.
>
> That is true with or without the Bible because everybody tries to use
> logic and reason and find meaning and joy.
But that's my point! Human logic or reasoning is terribly flawed because of
the influence of sin in our lives. Without God and His word, we have no
hope of ever attaining what God wants for us. Without God there is no
meaning or joy.
> Humans act according to what they think will benefit them in their
> context.
Humans act with self interest because of their sin. They cannot hope to
achieve anything more without God.
>> >> > Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that
>> >> > taketh
>> >> > away thy goods ask them not again. ...
>> >> Imagine that, you use the scripture for personal gain, I use the
>> >> scripture
>> >> to do what God wants me to. Seems pretty simple really.
>> > I do not gain from this. It is not my website or paypal account.
>> If that is true why did you fail to mention that from the start?
>
> Because it is not relevant. I just wanted to point out how Christians
> disobey the clear teachings of their Christ.
No human being (excluding Jesus), is ever going to be fully in compliance
with
God. Christians disobey God just as unbelievers disobey God. The difference
is the believer knows that they are a sinner and in need of Jesus, the
unbeliever does not. The believer repents of their sins (almost daily),
while the
believer does not. The believer is forgiven, the unbeliever is not.
>> You were attemptingto deceive people and that makes your statements
>> completely
>> suspect in my opinion.
>
> No deceiving. Just stating a commandment, asking something according to
> it, and observing how most Christians hedge to avoid this commandment.
I know many Christians and none of them "hedge" on any commandment.
However, as I said before, Christians are not under the law they are under
grace. Anyone that I know who is a Christian is very willing to give and
does
so regularly to both the church and to their fellow man as they are able and
as the Lord leads them.
Most Christians (including me), have gotten pretty good at creatively making
sure that they give anonymously. There are many ways to do that and my
friends and I share new ways all the time. We don't give for recognition we
do so because the Lord has lead us to do it, thus the reason for the
anonymity. It's not about proving to anyone that we give and it's not about
what anyone else thinks, it's only about how God leads us and what
God thinks.
As I said before, the way in which the request was made was highly suspect.
I
have had many people share with me a need or I have become aware of a need
and responded as the Lord lead me. I'm not in the habit of just throwing
away
God's resources because then He would take them away from me. I think this
is probably true for most Christians.
G-Net
news:9c3bj211e2albnrh8...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:16:50 GMT, "G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>><usenet...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
>>news:1161110202.3...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>> G-Net wrote:
>
>>> Christian teachings or any other religion does not necessarily make
>>> them better.
>
>>Religion is just fluff and really could be anything from Satanic worship
>>to just
>>about anything. It's not about religion, it's not about a religious leader
>>or
>>drinking the koolaid, it's about a relationship with God.
>
> That's just bagpipe playing. What makes your version any different
> than any other version?
My "version" of what, the Bible? There is only one Bible, anything
else is just a book.
>>> They are what they are: a combination of genetic predisposition
>>> plus mirroring what they experience and learn plus a component of
>>> free will.
>
>>That is your opinion which is based upon what? My opinion is based
>>upon God's word, scripture.
>
> You're assuming that everyone has your a priori assumptions. To
> others your "God's word" is just a book written by primitives.
Yeah, so?
>>> You would do exactly the same as you do now if you didn't have the
>>> Bible because you are able to combine verses so that they fit with your
>>> own opinion.
>
>>Wrong again. I constantly study scripture
>
> Same error. "Study scripture" to those outside your religion means
> "do what I want".
I don't care what "those outside" think. They are unbelievers and will
reap what their disobedience deserves. That isn't my problem.
>>> You form your opinions by reasoning which is good. For
>>> what do you need the Bible then?
>
>>Again, I don't just pull stuff out of the air. I use scripture and logic
>>to
>>try to determine what God is saying and wanting. Without the Bible man is
>>free
>>to do whatever whim or fancy catches his attention.
>
> And with it he's free to interpret it according to "whatever whim or
> fancy catches his attention".
Of course, that is their "right". God has given each of us a free will. With
that free will we are free to do whatever we want. We can choose to do
what we want or we can choose to do what God wants. In the end,
we will reap what we have sown in life.
> A distinction without a difference.
I think there is a very BIG difference. One way leads to heaven, the other
way leads to hell.
>>>> Imagine that, you use the scripture for personal gain, I use the
>>>> scripture to do what God wants me to. Seems pretty simple really.
>
>>> I do not gain from this. It is not my website or paypal account.
>
>>If that is true why did you fail to mention that from the start? You were
>>attempting to deceive people and that makes your statements completely
>>suspect in my
>>opinion.
>
> Only deceptive people can be deceived. He was merely proving that
> you'd "interpret" your "God's Word" any way you liked - which is
> exactly what you did.
You think that I interpreted God's Word because I didn't fall for the
scam? So, by your logic, a Christian must throw his resources away
and NOT listen to what God has told them? I don't think you have
any understanding of Christianity or what it means to have a
relationship with the Lord.
G-Net
news:1161142699.5...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Who said that I "have to rely on scripture and logic". I didn't say that I
relied on those things, I said that I used them. I also said that prayer
was a part of the Christian life too.
A relationship with God involves many aspects such as prayer, worship,
study of scripture, fellowship and praise. I also did not say that God
does not speak to us. I think God very definately does speak to us
but not in the same way that we verbally speak in the physical
realm. This is the reason that the unbeliever cannot "hear" God.
G-Net
news:3hgZg.1030$cQ5.969@trndny06...
> G-Net wrote:
>> <usenet...@yahoo.de> wrote in message
>> news:1161105076....@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>G-Net wrote:
>
>>>>Not at all. The Bible gives great advice IF one is willing to actually
>>>>take the time to
>>>>read and understand it. Unfortunately, there are people who only use the
>>>>Bible
>>>>when they think that they can benefit financially or otherwise.
>>>
>>>That can happen when one's belief is based on a book which can be
>>>twisted easily in all directions.
>>
>> No, it doesn't happen because Christianity is based on the Bible.
>
> And the Bible includes teachings of Jesus, one of which is "Give to those
> who ask of you." So what's the big deal?
No one "asked" me anything. A person who I don't know, have never met
and have no way of meeting posted something on a NG, which looked
like a scam from the very start. So, to me, there is no big deal, it was
a lie and I ignore it which is what God intended.
>> It happens because people are selfish, self-centered, self-serving,
>> arrogant, and sinful.
>
> That's why people aren't flocking to the website to make PayPal donations
> to the guy who asked for ten dollars from every Christian.
Well that's your take on things but I have a very different opinion.
>>>>>The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
>>>>
>>>>So we should give all of our money to you, is that it?
>
> Not all your money to one specific person (it's only $10.00 he's asking
> for from you), but yes, you should eventually give all your money to the
> poor, according to Jesus.
You are misreading the scripture. There is no commandment that everyone
should "give all their money to the poor". In fact Jesus said that the poor
will always be with us.
I have Bibles, several in fact along with concordences and commentaries so
re-quoting the same passages means nothing. There is nothing anywhere in
scripture which would "command" a believer to fall for a con.
I disagree completely. But as I said before, you are only looking at a
couple
of passages and ignoring the rest of the Bible.
>> Imagine that, you use the scripture for personal gain, I use the
>> scripture to do what God wants me to. Seems pretty simple really.
>
> Then you've already sold all your possessions and given the money to the
> poor, as Jesus commanded in the four verses I referenced above? You don't
> have a cent, nor a pot to piss in? Pardon me if I don't believe you.
No, actually I haven't sold all my possessions. I won't either until God
tells me
to. The passage that you quoted was not a commandment but was a
conversation with ONE person in one situation. But again, you have to
read the rest of the Bible, not just what you want to.
>>>>>>If this is legitamate then go to your church and ask people who know
>>>>>>you for help.
>
> Again, there's no restriction on how the "ask" must be done.
And there is nothing listed in that specific passage which says that
Christians
are supposed to be gullible either.
> It could be done in person at a church (can you imagine the reaction?
> Stunned, uncomfortable silence, a cough or two, perhaps a well-meaning old
> lady reaching in her purse for a one-dollar bill, the preacher abruptly
> going ahead with the next part of the service - all pretty embarrassing).
Really? Funny my church experience isn't like that at all. I've had many
situations
where someone came in (during the service), and their needs were taken care
of.
> It could be asked as a panhandler on the street, in possible violation of
> local laws. It could be a request on usenet, or on any number of blogs,
> web pages, and message boards on the Internet. You seem to be fishing for
> any excuse to avoid paying up.
Like I said, it was a scam and I saw it for what it was. If you have a
problem with
that I suggest you take it up with God not me, because that's who I listen
to.
>>>>>You misunderstand the reason why I posted this. I just wanted to show
>>>>>that the Bibel cannot reasonably be trusted. I guess I succeeded.
>>>>
>>>>You may have shown that the "Bibel" cannot be trusted but you proved
>>>>that the Bible is VERY trustworthy. It clearly proved what a scam your
>>>>pleas for money were.
>>>
>>>You are disobeying Jesus if you do not give to anybody who is asking.
>> And you are sinning if you claim to know what God wants me to
>> do with what He has given me.
>
> That's very surprising and disappointing. You're using the claim that
> someone else, not necessarily a Christian, is sinning - as an excuse for
> your own sinning of not following the teachings of Jesus. Further, you're
> actually "bearing false witness" about what the other guy is doing that's
> supposedly sinful: nowhere did he ever claim to know what God wants you to
> do with what He gave you.
The post said that if a person was a "true Christian", that implies a great
deal. Like I said, it was apparently to anyone that it was a scam and a
lie.
> You're literally bringing false charges against the guy, in violation of
> the Ninth Commandment.
I have not brought any false charges. I said it was a scam and in fact he
finally
admitted that it was.
> Finally, all he's doing is taking Jesus's plain teachings at their face
> value, while you're arguing that the words can be interpreted in a way
> that somehow gets you off the hook of doing what the words say you should
> do. That can't be good.
Like I said, I listen to God and do what He wants me to do, not some
chump who is lying and trying to use scripture for his own selfishness.
This is really no different than the Scribes, Pharisees or the Saducees
trying to trap Jesus so they would have a reason to kill him. It's just
someone who doesn't even believe in God trying to use the Bible to
"prove" something for his own ego. It didn't work in Jesus' day and
it won't work now.
usenet...@yahoo.de
Midwinter wrote:
> "G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > Midwinter wrote:
> >> Thanks. I'm just curious why his fan group's in the headers, is all.
> >
> > Because someone posted to a NG that apparently has his name on it?
>
> Oh dear.
>
> Yes, I can see that they did that. I was wondering WHY they did that. If
> you can't answer that question, then of course the question's not
> addressed to you.
Hi Midwinter, I am not familiar with American talk radio (being a
German residing in Ireland) and read the name Rush Limbaugh (often
together with the name Noam Chomsky as his adversary) only in internet
and usenet. From the content of websites and postings from fans of Rush
I assumed that many very aggressive Christians must be among his fans.
Therefore I thought I put it in.
G-Net
> friend of mine who posted under the handle "Mr. D, Pstychologist." He and
> I got into some very spirited (pun intended) jousting matches. I don't
> remember what led up to this challenge, but I (an atheist) said I'd be
> happy to act as if I was a Christian, living up to Christian teachings and
> ideals, giving the impression that I believed in Jesus, the whole nine
> yards - on receipt of ten thousand dollars in a certified bank check made
> out to the Joe and Lisa Delia College Fund. Doug took me up on the
> challenge, and set up a collection point and repository for donations
> solicited on usenet based on the same verses you're quoting here. It was
> Doug who made the appeal, not me, and of the ten thousand dollars, he
> ended up collecting under $50 - and most of that was contributed by
> himself. The lack of support from so many Christians was an indication to
> him that people only gave "lip service" to those types of commandments,
> while not actually acting in accordance with them, because it was too
> inconvenient. Doug's faith in Christians and Christianity took a tumble,
> and he became an atheist. I haven't heard from him in several years; I
> miss that interaction, because at the time, he had a faith he was willing
> to put into action, which is much more than I can say for most Christians.
So what's the point to this little story? Do you take pleasure in seeing a
believer
become an atheist? And what would have been the benefit to anyone giving
to this fund anyway, so you could play Christian? What benefit would that
give Christ?
>>>>But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that we
>>>>are just to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks. To do so would
>>>>mean that we did not have sufficient means to take care of our family,
>>>>our church or even those whom we know to be in need.
>
> Tough. When Jesus tells you to do something in order to be a follower of
> His, or in order to get into heaven, you don't start making wussy excuses
> like these. He gives that commandment in Matthew 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke
> 12:33, and Luke 18:22. Go look 'em up.
Ah hmmm, I have read the passages, numerous times. What you refuse to
see is that YOU are trying to tell me and other Christians what to do and
that's
not within your authority. I don't do what some "person" tells me to, I do
what
God tells me to and God does not want me to throw my resources away on
some scam. The passage does not say to rid yourself of all possessions and/
or resources nor does it say to be gullible and fall for every con artist
either.
>>>So you admit that the Bible does not give good advice and is no
>>>trustworthy guide.
>>
>> Not at all. The Bible gives great advice IF one is willing to actually
>> take the time to read and understand it. Unfortunately, there are people
>> who only use the Bible when they think that they can benefit financially
>> or otherwise.
>
> It would benefit someone financially if they disobeyed Jesus's
> commandments in Matthew 19:21; Luke 12:33, and Luke 18:22.
It would benefit them I suppose financially but Christians do not love
money,
they love God. They take their leading from the Holy Spirit via prayer and
study of the scriptures. So to a Christian, it doesn't matter what would
benefit them financially if it meant deliberately disobeying God.
> In fact, anyone retaining ownership of any possessions at all would
> violate those commandments while benefitting financially over someone who
> obeyed those commandments.
You are reading the scriptures wrong again. There is no commandment that
every Christian should sell all that they have. This was what Jesus said to
one person.
In the same way, Jesus did not say that money was the root of all evil, He
said
that the love of money was.
>>>>Secondly, asking in a NG is pretty bogus in my opinion because no one
>>>>has anyway of really knowing who you are or whether this is some scam.
>>>>You could already be a millionair or at least be a person of above
>>>>average means.
>
> The Internet has only been around for two decades, but word-of-mouth scams
> and con games have been around for millennia. One is just as likely to be
> promoting a scam in a Usenet post over the past twenty years as anyone
> else doing it the traditional way for the past two thousand years.
I think the way in which it was done was clearly bogus. It was obvious to me
as soon as I read the post. I've had a lot of experience with those who are
really in need and have been on numerous missions trips, camps, retreats,
revivals, etc. and have seen poverty that was sickening. This was clearly
not a legitimate request.
>>>>To give my money to someone who is NOT needy means that I have less
>>>>money to give to those who I know are.
>
> According to Jesus in Matthew 19:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke 18:22, you're
> not supposed to have any possessions at all. You're supposed to give
> EVERYTHING to the poor.
That's not true at all. That was (again), what Jesus said to one man.
>>>The commandment of Jesus is clear: "Do not resist the evil."
>
> This is true, and it would apply even to those who ask for money in a
> scam. Good point.
What about the passage that says: "Resist the devil and he will flee"?
>> So we should give all of our money to you, is that it?
>
> Well, yes, if you believe Jesus in Matthew 19:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke
> 18:22. Not necessarily all of your money; he's just asking for ten dollars
> from each Christian. So you're really trying to prop up a strawman
> argument here. The point of Jesus's teaching is that yes, you're supposed
> to give away all your money to the poor after selling all your
> possessions. Have you done so? If not, I don't see how you can expect
> Jesus to be happy with that slacker attitude of yours.
Well, I'll gladly take my chances with a just God over a sinful, selfish,
con artist.
> A typical apologetic is that Jesus restricted that particular commandment
> to the rich young man who asked what would be necessary for him to get
> into heaven, and that the commandment doesn't apply to anyone else.
Well, it doesn't apply like the pagans are trying to imply it does. I mean,
this
whole discussion is about as ridiculous as it gets. The nonsence and
stupidity
that is being passed off as "logic" is really pathetic. If this weren't so
mildly
entertaining, I'd just quit. I am just so amazed at the things that those
who
have no clue about God will say and what scriptures they will "quote" to
"prove" their point. I think the devil is wearing them like a cheap suite.
> That's a very poor defense, though: one could state with equal logical
> basis that the Ten Commandments only applied to the Hebrews at the time of
> the Exodus, so the commandments such as "Thou shalt not kill" not only
> don't apply to us today, we won't be punished if we do kill.
Well, you're close to being correct but not totally correct. Christians of
today
are not under the law, they are under grace. The law was only given to show
man what sin was and how sinful he was. Man couldn't even keep the two
commandments that God gave him in the Garden of Eden, there is no
way that man has any hope of keeping the 600 commandments that
there actually are. (Most people only concentrate on 10).
Because of man's sinful nature, Jesus had to come to enable man to have a
way to heaven. This does not mean that Christians have a license to ignore
the commandments but it does not mean that we are bound to the law in
the same way that early Christians were.
> Obviously, an absurd argument, just as the apologetic defense of Matthew
> 19:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke 18:22 is similarly absurd.
I disagree. You are trying to force Christians to live under the law and
that
is not right.
>> Maybe you should read the rest of the 66 books and then you would know
>> that Christians were not commanded to fall for every scam artist who
>> comes along.
>
> Maybe you should read Matthew 19:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke 18:22, and then
> report to your nearest hospital for a foot-ectomy. It's jammed in your
> mouth all the way up to your knee.
No, not at all. As I said you are attempting to jam the law down the throats
of
Christians when in fact they are not under the law but under grace.
>>>>If this is legitamate then go to your church and ask people who know you
>>>>for help.
>>>
>>>You misunderstand the reason why I posted this. I just wanted to show
>>>that the Bibel cannot reasonably be trusted. I guess I succeeded.
>>
>> You may have shown that the "Bibel" cannot be trusted but you proved
>> that the Bible is VERY trustworthy.
>
> Can you spot the contradiction in that sentence? A book that cannot be
> trusted contains no trustworthiness. Also, nothing he said at all "proved"
> the Bible is VERY trustworthy at all. Is English your primary language?
Let me break it down for ya':
1. You may have shown that the "Bibel" - Notice the way he spelled Bible?
>> It clearly proved what a scam your pleas for money were.
>
> First, I noticed that others have already pointed out that his "pleas for
> money" were honest and plainly stated, with no deception intended at all.
I don't care what "others" have said. It was plainly a lie from the very
start
because there was no real need. It was deception because there was an
assumption or an implying of need that in fact, did not exist. It was even
admitted that it was a just done to "prove" that the Bible was not
"trustworthy" (the author's words not mine).
> Second, you've not responded to the criticism that Jesus said "Do not
> resist the evil" which would imply that even if it was a scam, you were to
> participate anyway.
And you have not shown me where that passage even applies to this
situation.
> You didn't do too terribly well on this one.
I didn't? Gee, if a pagan thinks that I didn't do well then that means that
I did REALLY well in God's eyes. Thanks for the encouragement!!!
G-Net
news:oquaj29h65tgi3gph...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:37:45 GMT, "G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net>
>>>> are just to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks. To do so
>>>> would mean
>>>> that we did not have sufficient means to take care of our family, our
>>>> church or
>>>> even those whom we know to be in need.
>>>
>>> trustworthy guide.
>>
>
>>So we should give all of our money to you, is that it? Maybe you should
>>the rest of the 66 books and then you would know that Christians were not
>> commanded to fall for every scam artist who comes along.
>
> people you have obviously ever met and whose claims you cannot verify;
> people who in fact insist that you become as a little child because
> only someone with the gullibility of a child can believe what those
> people claim to be true.
You are not understanding the meaning of coming to God "as a little child".
It
in no way is referring to "gullibility" but purity and innocence. A
non-believer
will of course, never understand those concepts.
I also take exception to your claim that I cannot verify the Bible, I have
verified that the Bible is true for many years in my own life, my Christian
friends lives, and in my kids lives.
> I know that reads as offensive to you but that isn't the intent.
> I just don't know of any other way to say it.
I'm not offended, I expect non-believers to say all sorts of outrageous
things
in their attempt to bring down a believer.
> And many, if not most of us have read those 66 books and others that
> exist as well as having studied religion more than most Christians.
Bragging a little aren't we? Anyway, I really don't care what you have
studied
or what you have read it's obvious that you don't know God and that's sad.
> I seriously doubt you could hold up well against us in a rational
> debate regarding your religion and would most likely at some point,
> when you realize you don't have a logical answer to a claim or
> question do as most believers do.
> Fold your hands over your belly, smile that self satisfied smile and
> say "Well sometimes you just have to trust in faith."
Oh, I have never claimed as the unbelievers do, that I have all the
answers. I don't claim to be super intelligent and thus have worked
it all out either. I have no desire to debate a non-believer because
it's just like urinating in the wind. The non-believer always thinks
that they know everything and that they are right no matter what.
They are arrogant about thier understanding of science and have fully
put their trust in man. That's not my problem, that's between them
and God. They will answer for thier actions and I will answer for mine.
I don't feel that it's my job to "sell" God to anyone. I'm not interested in
convincing anyone of anything. I know what I have learned, what I have
experienced and I know what has worked for me, my family, and my
friends. It doesn't matter to me what some pagan thinks or what some
atheist thinks or even what some unbeliever thinks. Thier "logic", their
"reasoning" and their arguments are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned
because they are just sinful humans.
> Believing of course that you had just said something terribly wise.
No, I have no wisdom except what is from God.
> Gullibility is not and never has been a virtue.
I agree which is why I didn't fall for the scam and why I don't fall
for the arguments and the "logic" that the unbelievers try to
shove down my throat.
> It is a weakness in human nature that is cultivated by priests,
> politicians and every other type con artist out there to convince us
> that the lie is the truth and the impossible possible.
Yeah, this is predicted in the Bible as well. There are passages that say
that there will come a time when bad is considered good and good is
considered bad. We're seeing this already with abortion, promiscuity,
gambling, drug use, among other things.
The people who are Christians are the only ones who seem to know
right from wrong anymore....
> It is your life however, and your mind. It is your right to do with
> them as you will.
G-Net
> Giant Waffle wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:37:07 -0500, while bungee jumping,
>> " Midwinter" <midwi...@hotmail.co.uk> shouted thusly:
>>
>>>"G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>But I DO think you are missing it. The commandment doesn't mean that
>>>>we are just
>>>>to give blindly to anyone and everyone who asks.
>>>
>>>
>>>"Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
>>>turn not thou away."
>>
>> Jesus' words imply a need.
>
> Actually, there's no implication of need at all.
Whatever dude, you do whatever you want and you are free to give
to every con artist who crosses your path. I will continue to follow
the Holy Spirit's leading.
>> Thus, if I am able to give it,
>> then I would give to those in need.
>
> If you've got anything at all, then you have to sell it and give it to
> those in need according to Matthew 19:21, Mark 10:21, Luke 12:33, and Luke
> 18:22. Have you done that yet? If not, I don't blame you. That was pretty
> piss-poor financial planning advice from Jesus.
Like I said, you don't have any understanding of the scriptures that you
keep trying to jam down everyone's throats. You are misusing them and
misinterpreting them for your own self interest. You can give to any
moron you choose but as for me, I will continue to do as the Lord leads.
>> Why would someone
>> borrow from me, if they already have what they need?
>
> BORROW? Who said anything about "borrow"? Jesus said give to those who ask
> of you, and He said nothing about any conditional need requirement.
>
> WMD
Whatever....
G-Net
> "G-Net" <netn...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> But what does it hurt if someone uses scripture to emphasize why they
>> believe what they do? I see nothing wrong with it.
>
> their own scriptures to tell OTHER PEOPLE what to do.
Ummmm, you mean like the atheists, pagans, and unbelievers do?
>>> Rationalisation for keeping money for yourself?
>>
>> No, it is a fact that I have people who depend upon me to provide.
>> It's not about "keeping money for myself" it's about being a good
>> father, husband, friend, church member, etc.
>
> True again. Which is why you, as a good father, husband, friend, church
> member, etc, can't afford to take what the Bible tells you literally.
Well again that's just you opinion and I don't share it.
>> If I were destitute that would be fine. I am not however and will not
>> put myself into a financial need just to satisfy some NG junkie.
>
> So it would be fine if you were, but since you're not it wouldn't be fine?
I'm not destitute, God has blessed me in many ways. As a result of that
blessing, I have a responsibility to God which I take very seriously.
> And besides, the chap here hasn't given any indication of being a junkie.
>
>
>>>> But as Christians, we are not to give so that we can get back. We
>>>> are to give freely and with no expectations whatsoever.
>>>
>>> But you're not giving freely, are you?
>>
>> ...and you know this how????
>
> Well... Pretty much from what you said? That you weren't going to give
> to this guy? I don't really care who ELSE you're giving to, however many
> question marks you want to throw at me. That's not relevant. The point
> is that this guy asked, and you refused. Therefore, you're not giving
> freely. You're giving according to your own judgement as to who's
> deserving.
No, again, that's your opinion. I am giving freely as the Lord leads me.
>>> You're refusing to give because in your opinion this guy doesn't
>>> need your money.
>>
>> Yes, that is correct, he does not need the money.
>
> But again, that passage, that instruction from Jesus, says nothing about
> whether the person asking needs the money or not.
Well gee, the passage says nothing about the internet or news groups
so maybe they aren't valid either...
>> Actually it doesn't matter at all. I'm only raising the point so that
>> some other unsuspecting person doesn't send something.
>
> Anybody who does clearly deserves everything they get. The original
> poster here might only have meant this as a joke at the Bible's expense.
> Personally, I see it as a good - if minor - illustration of the flaws and
> hazards of a literal interpretation of the Bible.
I see it as utter stupidity.
>>> True enough. And yet so many Christians claim that we should be
>>> blindly obedient to every word of the Bible.
>>
>> Believing God and His word does not make one gullible.
>
> Of course not - but if I'm being told I've got to take the Bible as
> literal, inerrant truth, and then an obvious problem like this crops up,
> how am I supposed to resolve it?
Problems like this don't crop up. "Problems" like this are created because
there are evil people in the world. Christians can avoid falling for this
kind of evil through prayer, fasting, and study.
> Am I to assume that Jesus didn't always mean what he said? Or that
> he didn't always take care to get his true meaning across? Or that the
> Bible ISN'T actually the inerrant word of God, and is instead a
> collection of myths and legends from disparate sources that have
> been bundled together and presented as though they're a single,
> coherent source?
It's apparent that you've already formed an opinion based upon your wealth
of knowledge and experience. I wouldn't dream of trying to tell you
anything.
>> Neither does obeying scripture make one gullible either.
>
> When you choose to obey it, that is. And of course if you can just ignore
> it when it doesn't suit you, that's even better.
That is again, your rather warped opinion. It's not the truth but you don't
want the truth so you're stuck with your version of "truth".
>> This is just a ploy of Satan
>
> It's not a ploy of Satan. It's an interesting point made by this
> 'usenet_trash' poster. Dismissing it as a ploy of Satan might satisfy
> you if you believe in Satan, but I don't.
It's a shame that you don't believe in the devil. You're being used by
him just like a puppet...
>> I don't see it as complex or hard to unravel.
>
> And why should you, if you can simply ignore it?
I haven't ignored anything but a con artist.
>> I am not familiar with the word and I was honest about that. If
>> honesty is a problem for you I would suggest you not communicate with
>> Christians.
>
> Sorry. I had to take few moments to compose myself there.
>
> Please don't try to suggest that honesty is an inherent characteristic of
> those who call themselves 'Christian' - ESPECIALLY here on Usenet. With
> Christians, as with any other group of people bar politicians, some are
> honest and some are not.
Anyone who is a follower of Christ is honest. Anyone who is not is obviously
a fraud.
> I'm not convinced you can act all self-righteous in this instance, though.
> After all, here you now claim that you just weren't 'familiar' with the
> word.
> Yet, in the post before, your reply shows that you know what it means,
> yet you still implied (with the words 'whatever that means') that you
> didn't.
> You either knew or you didn't know what the word meant - there's no room
> for maneouvre here.
I said that I was not familiar with the word. I made an educated guess but I
was
not familiar with the word. You can read anything into that your little
heart
desires but I have been truthful.
>> No, it was a sham, there was no need, anyone could easily see that.
>> I committed no sin by denying the bogus "need" since it did not
>> exist in the first place.
>
> Yet the verse in question says nothing about 'need'. It simply instructs
> you to give to those who ask. Look:
>
> "Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants
> to borrow from you." - New International
>
> "Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn
> not thou away." - King James
>
> "Give thou to him that asketh of thee, and turn thou not away from him
> that will borrow of thee." - Wycliffe
>
> "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to
> borrow from you." - New American Standard
>
> The list goes on. Not one single reference to 'need'. Nowhere does it
> say 'assess the motivations of him who asks of you'. It just says 'give'.
> You've refused to do that - which is fine, of course. But I can't see a
> way to avoid the fact that you've disobeyed Jesus' clear command.
How about, you don't have the authority? How about "Let he who is without
sin cast the first stone". How about "resist the devil and he will flee"?
There
are many other scriptures which would also apply here including those
that talk about "counting the cost", etc. etc. etc.
>> Obviously, we don't agree.
>
> I'd say that's a fair assessment. Would you like to stop here, then?
Sure, this discussion is worthless, the fac that there are those making a
big deal out of this shows their evil intentions.
>> Exactly so why would a mere human make any claims that would indicate
>> that some may not be when in reality, he has no authority to do so?
>
> Moreover, why would you perceive those claims as a 'guilt trip'?
I've already explained that.
>> There is never a reason to just accept what someone tells you.
>
> That's very true.
>
>> Well that is again, your opinion. I think you are lacking in knowledge
>> of scripture and a relationship with God so I'm not sure that you are
>> really qualified to make that statement.
>
> Well of course I'm lacking in a relationship with God. What did you
> expect?
Nothing.... I wasn't disappointed.
>> I have disobeyed in your opinion, so what? In my opinion, I have only
>> used my God given intellect and scripture to discern a fraud and I
>> thank God for it.
>
> Well, I'd be a little worried about you if you hadn't 'discerned' that
> this guy was after your money, since that's what he said quite clearly at
> the beginning.
>
> So you're fine with the fact that this particular verse didn't apply to
> you in this situation - and that's cool. So long as I'm not being told
> that the Bible's the inerrant Word of God and that I should obey it when
> it tells me to do something. It just doesn't apply to me in this
> situation.
Being a Christian is not about memorizing the Bible so you can follow it to
the
very letter of the law.