Hi Les,
I have an old XT machine running ImageDisk (IMD) and have imaged and creaated bootable disks in the past. It has been a while since I last booted that system, but I expect it to boot with no problem.
Sent from Mail for Windows
Hi all,
Do we have a good solution for creating disk images of H37 software? I have some disks that I want to image. Previously I used Dunfield's IMD but I don't have a system that can run that anymore.
Les
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What Norberto and I were brainstorming was something like H8DUTIL.SYS program but for the H37, booted off the VDIP1 USB and using image files on the USB. The issue(s) are related to what sort of image file(s) to support, whether saving diskettes to image files is possible, and how much code is required to support the image formats (must fit in H8 memory). Worst case, I suppose, is we'd have a separate utility for each image format, and possible each having a separate "save" and "restore" program.
The H8DUTIL is pretty simple, since the image file format is
"raw" and the H17 routines are in ROM. Things like TD0, IMD, etc.,
and the H37 routines, takes up more space and requires more
development (I know there's C code for some of these formats, with
TD0 being complicated by an optional but messy, proprietary,
compression algorithm)
So, it would help to come up with some minimal set of requirements, rather than just support "everything".
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I'm going to start researching this. I think since the H37 has a WD179x chip on it we can talk directly to the chip to copy track by track and then send over a serial port connection like H89LDR does. Or even using the ROM routines to do this would probably work instead of direct chip programming.
If you can get this working, that will be great.
Norberto
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Les Bird
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 7:24 PM
To: SEBHC <se...@googlegroups.com>
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For IMD to run you have to run old MSDOS on a computer with a 5.25” floppy drive with an old floppy controller; correct?
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On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:25 AM, Terry Smedley <terry....@gmail.com> wrote:
Les,
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So, if I transfer from a 5.25” H37 floppy to a 3.5” floppy diskette and create an exact copy using HDOS or CP/M, then I should be able to use any Win10’s imaging tools to create an image; correct?
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Right, but the trick would be if one is accessing the disk image
on the host, e.g. via cpmtools. H8D images contain no metadata, so
there's no way to tell what order the data is in. There would need
to be an enforced convention on interleaved in order to be able to
use the images reliably outside of the save/restore paradigm.
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I would advise caution on using IMG. I believe it is a Windows-only proprietary format - at least I've had great difficulty using images of that type in the past. I would say we need to stick to open formats like IMD.
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The read track command is not as simple as it might sound. Especially for diskettes that have been written (since formatting), the byte stream will get out-of-sync and you end up having to basically simulate the synchronization in software in order to get useful data out of the sectors (except it's worse because you've lost the clock bits). Also, in order to format a disk with that data you cannot just send the bitstream to the 1797 but you have to translate it back into the special characters for the various sync bytes, as those have to be written with missing clock bits.
For last-chance recovery of data, and for analyzing an unknown diskette format, it is useful. For general data, probably not so much.
I had written a utility to use this command back in the day. It
would read the track and display the data in hex. But I had to add
bit-shift operations (left/right) in order to bring the data into
"focus", especially for sectors that had been written since
formatting as the re-write of the sector data could be off by any
number of bits from the original formatting.
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I would assume that adding files to an image is done on a host, not the H8. In that case the entire diskette image could easily be placed in memory - if necessary - and modified uncompressed, then written back as an IMD with compression.
I don't think it's advisable to try and splice data into an IMD,
it seems oriented more towards writing in it's
entirety/sequentially. But, I've not implemented much using IMD,
perhaps Mark or others have more experience. The utility I wrote
to convert my simulator images to IMD does that track-by-track,
sequentially.
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Physical sectors are only about speed of access. When something like CP/M has a table to interleave, it doesn't care about the physical sectoring, other than speed.In the simplest case, The H8D can be copied to a disk. To optimize speed, a second disk can be formatted from that disk or other and then the files sys copies to the new disk.The problem with any setup is if there is a sector size issue.I don't recall for sure but I believe the H8D format reads the disk in the sector header order. It doesn't care about physical sector order as it request sector in the headers sector number order. The data can then be transfered in any desired order ( as I recall, I have a specific command to do just that ). If one is not sure which order to place it in, I'd recommend the formating of an additional blank disk to copy the transfered disk data to on the H8/H89.I do think it would be a good idea to keep track of the sector size information but it you have such a disk image, that information is on that disk someplace or HDOS wouldn't know what to do with it. Since the H8D is in the sector disk order it shouldn't be that difficult to extract it from the image.Since I do not have a H37 disk setup and don't intend to get one any time soon, I'd think it is not all that difficult for one of the group to look into it.Dwight
Well, it looks like I spoke too soon on the booting of the XT machine. When Julia started going to the hospital about every two months, I had to set most of my activities aside and care for her. So the machine has been sitting for several years.
When I tried to boot, I discovered the CMOS memory battery had died. I replaced the battery, I tried to boot and got memory errors. I removed and reinstalled the memory sims and memory checks OK now, but the system will not boot. It is a DECpc 433dxLP with 8 MB ram and Quantum ProDrive ELS had disk. I am trying to reestablish the CMOS memory settings to boot from the SCSI HD but I got this machine free (being discarded by original owner on upgrade to new machine) so I don’t have much in the way of documentation.
This machine is not HEATH, but was the machine I used to make images (ImageDisk application for IMD image files) of my H-37 disks to support the H8 and several H-89 computers.
I am hoping that someone on this group may know something that will help me get this accessory machine booting to support the Heaths with H37 disk images.
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Kenneth L. Owen tx836519
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 8:43 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [sebhc] H37 Disk Imaging
Hi Les,
I have an old XT machine running ImageDisk (IMD) and have imaged and creaated bootable disks in the past. It has been a while since I last booted that system, but I expect it to boot with no problem.
Sent from Mail for Windows
Hi all,
Do we have a good solution for creating disk images of H37 software? I have some disks that I want to image. Previously I used Dunfield's IMD but I don't have a system that can run that anymore.
Les
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Hi Steven,
Both of the IDE hard drives are set to “not installed” (as prescribed for SCSI boot). I don’t get anything except “no boot drive” on restart.
From: Steven Hirsch
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2021 5:01 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
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Hi Steven,
The SCSI drive is connected to a connector on the main board, so the SCSI controller must be part of the DEC main board. There is no 3rd party controller and both IDE and SCSI drives connect to the same connector on the main board. According to the service manual SCSI is enabled by setting the ‘IDE drives’ to ‘not installed’ and ‘IDE Hard Drives’ to ‘disabled’.
Pressing F1 for setup displays three pages:
(on computer) (as listed in service manual)
Page 1:
System Time: hh:mm:ss “
System Date: dd mmm yyyy “
Language: English “
Diskette A: 3.5”, 1.44 MB “
Diskette B: not installed “
Hard Disk 1: not installed “
Hard Disk 2: not installed “
Base Memory: 640 KB “
Extended Memory: 7168 KB “
Video Card: VGA or EGA “
Num Lock:` On “
Page 2:
Password: not installed “
Parallel port: Enabled as LPT 1 “
Serial port 1: Enabled as Com 1 “
Serial port 2:` Enabled as Com 2 “
Diskette Drive: Enabled “
IDE Hard Drives Disabled “
Boot from diskette A Enabled “
Boot from IDE Disk C Enabled Boot from hard disk C Enabled
User definable drives 48 & 49 “
Exchange diskettes Disabled “
Page 3:
CPU Speed: Fast “
Post write Disabled “
Primary cache: Enabled “
Secondary cache: Enabled “
Shadow Bios ROM Enabled “
Shadow Video ROM Enabled “
Monitor Type 640 x 480 @ 60 Hz/NI “
This morning, on applying power the hard disk spins up to speed and steps in several tracks then seeks track 0. There was no other activity and no display on the monitor. Removing and reseating the two power supply connectors to the main board, things started working like yesterday: ‘ No Boot Drive’ message and ‘enter Setup’ message.
I’m stumped! Any Ideas?
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Steven Hirsch
Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2021 8:16 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H37 Disk Imaging
On 9/25/21 7:32 PM, Kenneth L. Owen tx836519 wrote:
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Hi Steven,
The only thing I have found that changed things was removing and reinstalling some connections. I will do a wholesale remove and reinstall of ALL jumpers and connectors. Seems like not running to generate some cleaning heat has allowed oxidation of contact surfaces.
Sent from Mail for Windows
From: Steven Hirsch
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2021 12:08 PM
To: se...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H37 Disk Imaging
On 9/26/21 10:29 AM, Kenneth L. Owen tx836519 wrote:
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Nice progress Les!
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One other piece of information is the physical sector order on
the tracks. That's much harder to discern. The 1797 "read multiple
sectors" command retrieve sectors in logical order, so it will not
return that. The only way I can think of right now is to do a
"read track" and then try and parse the formatting. Or else leave
it to the user to manually specify.
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Yeah, it's not always obvious what the 1797 does for a command.
Some of the better, original, documentation for the WD chips
included flowcharts for each command, and these were instrumental
in understanding what they do. I recall those flowcharts getting
"A+" marks for authentically representing what a command does.
The read multiple sectors command starts with the sector number in the sector register, as I recall, and then increments that number after each sector is found. It searches the track until it finds an address that matches the sector number, then reads the sector data, then increments and repeats. When it fails to find a sector (I think after seeing two index holes - i.e. two revolutions), it stops (so, the "normal" end to that command is "sector not found"). At that point, the sector register will be +1 the last sector found. So, it is reading logical sector order, 1, 2, 3, ... If the track was formatted with a skew factor, as was commonly done to improve performance, then you can't tell that from the read multiple sectors command.
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You could do a read track in addition to read multiple, as it is
easier to get the sector data using read multiple. A lot more
work, though, so not sure if it is worth it.
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That is only for *Heath CP/M* I believe, and actually there is a CP/M DPB (or similar data) also in sector 0 - which is what you should use for accessing files (rather than using hard-coded "assumed" DPBs).
Unfortunately, MMS CP/M formats do not use sector 0, so those diskettes will fail that snooping - if there are any out there.
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Do you have an H37 controller? Perhaps you can use the 3.5” floppy instead unless you have or can get HH 5.25” floppy drives if you have an H37 controller.
Norberto
From: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steven Feinsmith <steven.f...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 9:25 PM
To: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H37 Disk Imaging
I have three Siemens 5.25" floppy drives. All of them are belt-driven. All belts were bad. The replacement belts were impossible to find.
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Here is an H89 with two 3.5” floppy drives attached to a soft sector controller.
From: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Norberto Collado <norberto...@koyado.com>
Reply-To: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 10:19 PM
To: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H37 Disk Imaging
Do you have an H37 controller? Perhaps you can use the 3.5” floppy instead unless you have or can get HH 5.25” floppy drives if you have an H37 controller.
Norberto
From: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Steven Feinsmith <steven.f...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2021 at 9:25 PM
To: "se...@googlegroups.com" <se...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [sebhc] H37 Disk Imaging
I have three Siemens 5.25" floppy drives. All of them are belt-driven. All belts were bad. The replacement belts were impossible to find.
I struggle to recall the information from the past. Someone replaced the H89 with a pair of half-height 5.25" drives. I cannot remember what brand and model number. I remember Zenith Z90 used half-height 5.25" soft sector floppy drives.Perhaps you may know about it...
Thank you very much,
Steven
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I did not realize that the 3.5” floppy drives are very expensive these days. WOW!
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The USB floppy drive can only connect to the USB VDIP1 second USB channel. I think this is on Glenn’s to-do-list to enable it.
Norberto
From: se...@googlegroups.com <se...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Les Bird
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Steven, without knowing anything about the Siemens drives, and I may be way off base, have you thought of looking at an ‘O’ ring to replace the belt. I’ve seen them used in some industrial equipment with small motors. If so, a good place to look is MSCDirect.com. They carry a lot of different sizes. Again:: Off base, maybe, but just a shot. Good luck.
Pat
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Terry: when you were done were you able to keep the drive in its original plastic case? How are you powering it?
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