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[Please keep the list CCed.]
On 2017-02-06 12:31, Oleg Artemiev wrote:
>>> In general everyone using qubes (at least qubes 3.0 is using
>>> virtual desktops) uses virtual desktops: Xfce has virtual
>>> desktops and KDE has.
>> Just because they're included in the DE by default doesn't mean
>> everyone uses them.
> Last time I installed was long ago. After install you have no
> desktops on a panel? If you have at least two - you use them.
I imagine some people choose to disable them or simply ignore them
(e.g., by keeping all windows on the first virtual desktop), just like
many other features that are on by default.
> virtual desktop is a classic thing. Gnome made them unneed with
> their mouse operated window list (need to get mouse pointer into
> left upper conner), but gnome is not an option for Qubes (and I
> dislike the way them designed that).
>
>>> KDE has ability to stick application to a desktop from the box,
>>> but KDE is heavy and is not a default choice for Qubes
>>> anymore.
>> Indeed, but you can still use KDE on Qubes 3.2, if you want.
> Heavy manager + unrecomended.
>
>>> why do we use operating systems at all? Because them provide
>>> some set of default pretty functionality/environment from the
>>> box. Why each time I power down my PC and power it up back I
>>> have to waste time on placing windows between desktops? Why the
>>> hell I can't power on and smoke then get back and see
>>> everything same way organised as I had on my last power up?
>> Well, you can install Devilspie2 (or equivalent) in dom0 and
>> automate your setup. (Remember, the foregoing discussion is about
>> whether it should be installed *by default*.)
> Yep. KDE by default has this from the box. Xfce has nothing for
> this. That's why "by default"
>
Hm, then perhaps it's really Xfce who should integrate this upstream?
It seems like it would be suboptimal for the Qubes Project to try to
maintain a fork of Xfce that goes beyond Qubes-specific functions.
>>> The only thing I would like is having choice on restore as it
>>> was and run new session. People at firefox made good work and
>>> algorithm is well known, why not to apply this to Qubes: On
>>> start show what is going to be started, if user chooses
>>> "restore last state" - exactly that set left at session
>>> abort/power off is shown, if user is in doubt - new tab is
>>> always available. if user doesn't want to start same or partial
>>> set - give him/her clean new session. What a problem to do same
>>> way w/ desktop placement and VM autorun? People spend a lot of
>>> time starting same things on next power up. Firefox behaviour
>>> in case when firefox configured "restore previouse state" and
>>> was killed/aborted is best behaviour I've seen on restoring
>>> workspace.
>> This sounds like it would indeed be a nice feature. Care to
>> contribute a patch?
> Not. :( A lot of questions appear to understand where to make
> changes at 1st. Unsure that I'll be able to make such a patches.
>
>>> Locking application to some desktop set is a very good feature
>>> and, afair and adding this functionality via some utility in
>>> Dom0 default package set is work in progress for current qubes.
>>> Just choose one app we're okay with, hug it with qubes vm
>>> manager and users will love ability to use it. :) I don't vote
>>> for this one utility - I vote for similar functionality
>>> available to user _by_default_ .
>> Why _by default_? As I explained above, we need to take a
>> disciplined approach in deciding which features get included by
>> default. If we include by default everything that everyone wants,
>> Qubes will suffer from the consequent software bloat and feature
>> creep.
> That is not what every one want but this is what _everyone_
> usually wastes time on - when powered down and powered up to
> continue .
>
>> We must resist the temptation to push for the default inclusion
>> of features simply because *we* like them. There has to be a
>> stronger reason than that. We have to ask ourselves the hard
>> questions: Why do you want it to be the default? To save you from
>> having to configure it yourself? Because you think other people
>> should share your personal preferences?
> Isn't the reason "every one wastes time that way" above is not
> enough to add in whish list "make life better for every one" by
> enabling option to restore last state of running VMs this way"?
>
It sounds like you're conflating a few different ideas here: including
Devilspie2 by default, locking apps to virtual desktops, and saving state.
I think the case for the last one is probably stronger than the first
two (given what has been said so far), but maybe this is a question
for the UX experts.
>
>> Also, why is it so important to restrict certain domains to
>> certain virtual desktops?
> All these restrictions are about:
>
> 0. Save time - all appears same place (mean desktop set) - no
> annoying window reorder . 1. Easier to group desktops and
> activities by roles.
>
These might be particularly subjective to the user's workflow.
>> Why not just place those windows on that virtual desktop if you
>> want to, and not place any other ones there? Why does it have to
>> be enforced by the OS?
> I did not request to enforce everyone work that way.
>
> I request putting an _option_ that user could _enable_, not forced
> to use by default.
>
Well, that's what I mean. Why do you want to have the option to have
your OS force you to keep certain windows on/off certain virtual
desktops? Why not just place them there (or not) yourself? Is it about
preventing user error or something?
>> Please don't take offense to these questions. I'm just trying to
>> encourage you to articulate the rationale underlying your
>> suggestions.
> it's okay.
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