Looking for RSTS-E V10

[Steve Ives]

I'm a newbie to the group, just finished my PiDP11 build a couple of days ago. I've been having fun playing with the included RSX11M-PLUS and RSTS 7, but I'd really like to find a RSTS V10 emulation. I'm seeing references to it left and right, but I'm not seeing any pointers to where I may be able to download a pre-made image? My VMS skills are good, but I have no idea how to build a RSTS system from scratch. Any pointers to where I may be able to download a pre-built system?

[timr...@gmail.com]

There are full write ups on how to build an RSTS system (or sysgen).  I did it a few years back and it's not that hard.  Just takes awhile as there are many steps.  I can't point you

to a fully made system.  I don't know if there is one.  You may have to go the route of building one.  You can do it.

[Anton Lavrentiev]

https://groups.google.com/g/pidp-11/c/kStWvbpQuUA/m/8BYBQrCgAgAJ

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:06 PM Steve Ives <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm a newbie to the group, just finished my PiDP11 build a couple of days ago. I've been having fun playing with the included RSX11M-PLUS and RSTS 7, but I'd really like to find a RSTS V10 emulation. I'm seeing references to it left and right, but I'm not seeing any pointers to where I may be able to download a pre-made image? My VMS skills are good, but I have no idea how to build a RSTS system from scratch. Any pointers to where I may be able to download a pre-built system?
>

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[timr...@gmail.com]

I was obviously wrong.  That is interesting.  I may try it myself.  Thanks for the link.

[Anton Lavrentiev]

You're welcome. BTW, for building your own, one needs installation media, and I honesty don't know where you can find any for 10.x... Any clues?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/51fb66ba-c5bf-439d-917a-d0de484f81e2n%40googlegroups.com.

[Tony Nicholson]

On Saturday, January 29, 2022 at 4:56:39 PM UTC+11 Anton wrote:

You're welcome. BTW, for building your own, one needs installation media, and I honesty don't know where you can find any for 10.x... Any clues?

You won't be able to grab the install tapes using a web browser (since they removed support for ftp-style URLs in the current and up-to-date web browsers).

I just checked and they are still available using anonymous ftp from

ftp.trailing-edge.com  in /pub/rsts_dists

The RSTS/E V10.1install tape is in the file rstse_v10_1_install_sep10_1992.tap.bz2 (you'll need bunzip2 to decompress this), then attach it READ_ONLY to a magtape drive -

e.g.  In your SIMH .ini file

; TS11 magtape (becomes tape drive MS0: under RSTS/E)

set ts enable

set ts0 locked

attach ts0 -r rstse_v10_1_install_sep10_1992.tap

Boot this tape (boot ts0) to install on the system disk. I usually use a large drive like an RA92

on the RQDX3 controller (rq device) to allow plenty of "play" room.

Various layered product tapes are available too.  Make sure you get the ones compatible with RSTS/E V10.1 (mostly the higher version numbered tapes).  These tapes are in TPC format (so you'll need to specify -f tpc on your attach command under SIMH).

I've zipped up my complete RSTS/E V10.1 documentation set as PDF files to Google Drive too.  It's a big file (1.8Gbytes) containing PDFs that you can get from

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-cZsyJmAzsTWDDu5iPlD_o9_rYwahaGs/view?usp=sharing

Tony

[Tony Nicholson]

On Saturday, January 29, 2022 at 3:06:00 PM UTC+11 Steve wrote:

Any pointers to where I may be able to download a pre-built system?

I've just added a pre-built system image as well as sample SIMH pdp11 (and John Wilson's E11) configuration files

with a very brief description to my GitHub.  This was one I created about 12 years ago and includes both DECnet and LAT

support (but not the recent updates).  Get it by following the prebuilt link at

https://github.com/agn453/RSTS-E

It's an RD53 disk image for the MSCP (rq) disk controller.

Tony

[Johnny Billquist]

ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rsts_dists/

Johnny

On 2022-01-29 06:56, Anton Lavrentiev wrote:
> You're welcome. BTW, for building your own, one needs installation
> media, and I honesty don't know where you can find any for 10.x... Any
> clues?
>
> On Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 12:03 AM timr...@gmail.com

> <mailto:timr...@gmail.com> <timr...@gmail.com

> <mailto:timr...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I was obviously wrong.  That is interesting.  I may try it myself.
> Thanks for the link.
>
> On Friday, January 28, 2022 at 10:39:10 PM UTC-6

> anton.la...@gmail.com <mailto:anton.la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/pidp-11/c/kStWvbpQuUA/m/8BYBQrCgAgAJ

> <https://groups.google.com/g/pidp-11/c/kStWvbpQuUA/m/8BYBQrCgAgAJ>
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:06 PM Steve Ives <steve...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm a newbie to the group, just finished my PiDP11 build a
> couple of days ago. I've been having fun playing with the
> included RSX11M-PLUS and RSTS 7, but I'd really like to find a
> RSTS V10 emulation. I'm seeing references to it left and right,
> but I'm not seeing any pointers to where I may be able to
> download a pre-made image? My VMS skills are good, but I have no
> idea how to build a RSTS system from scratch. Any pointers to
> where I may be able to download a pre-built system?
> >
> > --
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> it, send an email to pidp-11+u...@googlegroups.com.
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pidp-11/a4a3a0c4-81c3-45d3-9ed7-322e029ad5e0n%40googlegroups.com>.

>
>
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--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[Anton Lavrentiev]

Thanks a bunch, Tony!

Yeah, the browsers dropped the support for the ftp scheme, but one can still use an ftp client (command line) or things like wget ;-)

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[Johnny Billquist]

On 2022-01-29 09:06, Tony Nicholson wrote:
>
> On Saturday, January 29, 2022 at 4:56:39 PM UTC+11 Anton wrote:
>
> You're welcome. BTW, for building your own, one needs installation
> media, and I honesty don't know where you can find any for 10.x...
> Any clues?
>
>
> You won't be able to grab the install tapes using a web browser (since
> they removed support for ftp-style URLs in the current and up-to-date
> web browsers).

Indeed. We browsers are becoming idiotically bloated, while removing
useful functionality.
Anotherone is that I'm now getting warnings when I want to look at pdf
files that aren't over https. I bet I'm soon not going to be allowed to
even access them...

> I just checked and they are still available using anonymous ftp from
>
> ftp.trailing-edge.com  in /pub/rsts_dists
>
> The RSTS/E V10.1install tape is in the file
> rstse_v10_1_install_sep10_1992.tap.bz2 (you'll need bunzip2 to
> decompress this), then attach it READ_ONLY to a magtape drive -
>
> e.g.  In your SIMH .ini file

Yup. Lots of good stuff on trailing-edge...

And I'm not sure, but it might be very important for all kind of drives.
RSTS/E do not like if the installation tape isn't read only. I know it's
definitely a thing if you use TMSCP.

> ; TS11 magtape (becomes tape drive MS0: under RSTS/E)
> set ts enable
> set ts0 locked
> attach ts0 -r rstse_v10_1_install_sep10_1992.tap

Interesting that you pick ts. Any special reason? I's usually go for
TMSCP, which means TK50/TU81.

> Boot this tape (boot ts0) to install on the system disk. I usually use a
> large drive like an RA92
> on the RQDX3 controller (rq device) to allow plenty of "play" room.

Technically that combination never existed. The RQDX3 is an MFM
controller, while the RA drives are SDI. But since the controller speaks
MSCP, it basically means disk types are meaningless anyway.
Which is why I usually just create a very large disk. You can do that in
simh by using RAUSER=nnnn. It will say it's an RA81 (if I remember
right), but it will be with the size you specify.
Not sure what the maximum size for disks are in RSTS/E. With RSX, it's
8G (if you attach something larger than 8G to RSX, it truncates it to 8G).

> Various layered product tapes are available too.  Make sure you get the
> ones compatible with RSTS/E V10.1 (mostly the higher version numbered
> tapes).  These tapes are in TPC format (so you'll need to specify -f tpc
> on your attach command under SIMH).
>
> I've zipped up my complete RSTS/E V10.1 documentation set as PDF files
> to Google Drive too.  It's a big file (1.8Gbytes) containing PDFs that
> you can get from

Could you setup some place with the documentation available ordered? I
think bitsavers don't have all of it, and I know Stacken.KTH.SE have
some, but not sure how complete for V10. So it would be great if someone
would give this some love.

I am trying to do that for RSX. See http://mim.update.uu.se/manuals

Johnny

[Anton Lavrentiev]

> and I know Stacken.KTH.SE have some, but not sure how complete for V10.

Last time I checked (recently),

elvira.stacken.kth.se/rstsdoc

does indeed have some but only up to 9.7, absolutely nothing for
10.x... Maybe there are some other RSTS-related resources on there
but I don't know of them.

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[Tony Nicholson]

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 3:06:23 AM UTC+11 Johnny wrote:

On 2022-01-29 09:06, Tony Nicholson wrote:

> [snip]

Indeed. We browsers are becoming idiotically bloated, while removing
useful functionality.
Anotherone is that I'm now getting warnings when I want to look at pdf
files that aren't over https. I bet I'm soon not going to be allowed to
even access them...

The other reason is security over "non-trusted" pathways.  This is also

why most recent Linux distributions don't install an ftp or telnet client by

default.  Protocols that can use unencrypted data (and pass authentication

in clear text) are in the thoes of being deprecated.

 

> ; TS11 magtape (becomes tape drive MS0: under RSTS/E)
> set ts enable
> set ts0 locked
> attach ts0 -r rstse_v10_1_install_sep10_1992.tap

Interesting that you pick ts. Any special reason? I's usually go for
TMSCP, which means TK50/TU81.

A TMSCP device should work too (SIMH tq).  I just picked it because

this is what I used to use on a real PDP-11/70 :)

> Boot this tape (boot ts0) to install on the system disk. I usually use a
> large drive like an RA92
> on the RQDX3 controller (rq device) to allow plenty of "play" room.

Technically that combination never existed. The RQDX3 is an MFM
controller, while the RA drives are SDI. But since the controller speaks
MSCP, it basically means disk types are meaningless anyway.
Which is why I usually just create a very large disk. You can do that in
simh by using RAUSER=nnnn. It will say it's an RA81 (if I remember
right), but it will be with the size you specify.
Not sure what the maximum size for disks are in RSTS/E. With RSX, it's
8G (if you attach something larger than 8G to RSX, it truncates it to 8G).

I meant to type MSCP controller (SIMH rq device).  I was watching the tennis

while composing my message, and sometimes my fingers type things my brain

might have been confused about!  (Wasn't it a UDA50 on the UniBus?)

Could you setup some place with the documentation available ordered? I
think bitsavers don't have all of it, and I know Stacken.KTH.SE have
some, but not sure how complete for V10. So it would be great if someone
would give this some love.

I no longer run an ftp server.  If anyone wishes to make these files available

(some - but not all are on Bitsavers/Elvira) by all means do so.  The zip file

includes manuals from earlier versions of RSTS/E that were not updated

for V10.1.

Tony

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2022-01-29 20:46, Tony Nicholson wrote:
> On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 3:06:23 AM UTC+11 Johnny wrote:
>
> On 2022-01-29 09:06, Tony Nicholson wrote:
> > [snip]
> Indeed. We browsers are becoming idiotically bloated, while removing
> useful functionality.
> Anotherone is that I'm now getting warnings when I want to look at pdf
> files that aren't over https. I bet I'm soon not going to be allowed to
> even access them...
>
>
> The other reason is security over "non-trusted" pathways.  This is also
> why most recent Linux distributions don't install an ftp or telnet client by
> default.  Protocols that can use unencrypted data (and pass authentication
> in clear text) are in the thoes of being deprecated.

Yes. But the thing is, not everything is actually a security risk/problem.
In fact, most things are not. And trying to imply it is, and insist that
everything have to be run over https becomes yet another case of
instilling a false sense of security into people.

If someone were to corrupt the content of those DEC manuals, the problem
is pretty much that I just don't have correct information. If someone
really want to go through the problem of creating that problem for me, I
would then have to realize the information is incorrect when trying to
use it, and then locate correct information from somewhere else. Wasting
some time for me, sure, but nothing else. And such broken/altered pdf
files can just as easily be provided through https, so nothing actually
improved by that layer. And if someone sees exactly what information I
access, I couldn't care less. It's already visible that I am accessing
the site, https or not, so it's only about what specific documents I'm
accessing. But of course, anyone on that site, or who breaks into it
will be able to find that piece of information out anyway. Meanwhile,
removing functions such as ftp (or http) will make my life that much harder.

Definitely the wrong tradeoffs here. When I actually am dealing with
sensitive information, the by all means, insist on https, but don't just
blindly insist on it everywhere.

(Sorry for ranting, and it isn't specifically against you, Tony.)

> > ; TS11 magtape (becomes tape drive MS0: under RSTS/E)
> > set ts enable
> > set ts0 locked
> > attach ts0 -r rstse_v10_1_install_sep10_1992.tap
>
> Interesting that you pick ts. Any special reason? I's usually go for
> TMSCP, which means TK50/TU81.
>
>
> A TMSCP device should work too (SIMH tq).  I just picked it because
> this is what I used to use on a real PDP-11/70 :)

Ah. Yeah. I've only been using TU45, TU77 and TU81 on real 11/70s. TS
seemed a little unexpected, but of course perfectly legitimate.

> > Boot this tape (boot ts0) to install on the system disk. I
> usually use a
> > large drive like an RA92
> > on the RQDX3 controller (rq device) to allow plenty of "play" room.
>
> Technically that combination never existed. The RQDX3 is an MFM
> controller, while the RA drives are SDI. But since the controller
> speaks
> MSCP, it basically means disk types are meaningless anyway.
> Which is why I usually just create a very large disk. You can do
> that in
> simh by using RAUSER=nnnn. It will say it's an RA81 (if I remember
> right), but it will be with the size you specify.
> Not sure what the maximum size for disks are in RSTS/E. With RSX, it's
> 8G (if you attach something larger than 8G to RSX, it truncates it
> to 8G).
>
>
> I meant to type MSCP controller (SIMH rq device).  I was watching the tennis
> while composing my message, and sometimes my fingers type things my brain
> might have been confused about!  (Wasn't it a UDA50 on the UniBus?)

Yeah. On the Unibus you'd use the UDA50. And on Qbus it's the KDA50.
Or if you wanted SCSI, the DEC controller was the RQZX1.

> Could you setup some place with the documentation available ordered? I
> think bitsavers don't have all of it, and I know Stacken.KTH.SE

> <http://Stacken.KTH.SE> have

> some, but not sure how complete for V10. So it would be great if
> someone
> would give this some love.
>
>
> I no longer run an ftp server.  If anyone wishes to make these files
> available
> (some - but not all are on Bitsavers/Elvira) by all means do so.  The
> zip file
> includes manuals from earlier versions of RSTS/E that were not updated
> for V10.1.

Oh. I was thinking of a setup through http (or https if you want). As
the situation is, ftp isn't a very good choice.

[Steve Ives]

Thanks, much appreciated. I'll check it out.

[steve...@gmail.com]

Very useful resource, thanks!

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[Tom Lake]

I sent all the RSTS/E 10.1 manuals to bitsavers a few years ago:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsts/V10/

[Tom Lake]

Hmmm. I just went to bitsavers and all the manuals are for 10.0. I guess they didn't keep the 10.1 manuals I sent.

[Anton Lavrentiev]

> I guess they didn't keep the 10.1 manuals I sent.

Tom, that's sad... Can you please share them with us somehow?

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[Tony Nicholson]

The zip file I  made available has the Mentec RSTS/E 10.1 manuals too.

Tony

[andy]

Hey if you are still looking for RSTS V10.1 image I recall that Tom Lake shared one with me on google docs a year or three back. Do let me know and I will dig it up... I am running a derivative of it to this day and it works great

cheers

Andy

[Gerry Duprey]

Howdy,

There is a RSTS/E 10.1 install around. I have it and it's the final release of RSTS. It's pretty
polished and even has post Y2K support.

Even though I grew up on RSTS 7.2 and loved it at the time, it's pretty brutally minimal.

By the time RSTS 10 was done, DCL was actually very usable and modern-esque.

But all the cool RSTS stuff was still there.

Check out

https://github.com/agn453/RSTS-E

Gerry

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[Johnny Billquist]

While I think it's nice that people care, and fix various things. And I
really like that they continue, and the information is preserved, I
really don't agree with claiming this is under some BSD license. RSTS/E
is not under a BSD license, and it's pretty ugly to just put things up
with a reference to such a license. Not to say deceptive.

Why not just state that it's not free, and the owners can contact you if
they want the information to be taken down? Or would that then trigger
github to not allow the information to be there in the first place?
In which case github is really not the appropriate place for this
information to be.

(And I know it's not you who put it up, Gerry, but yours was the post
that lead me to spot this...)

Johnny

[Tony Nicholson]

On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 6:24:23 AM UTC+11 Johnny wrote:

While I think it's nice that people care, and fix various things. And I
really like that they continue, and the information is preserved, I
really don't agree with claiming this is under some BSD license. RSTS/E
is not under a BSD license, and it's pretty ugly to just put things up
with a reference to such a license. Not to say deceptive.

It was me.

Prior to uploading a prebuilt disk image this week, I had not made available

any of the licensed RSTS/E software.  The BSD license applies to my

contributions.

It was my good-natured attempt to provide some fellow PiDP11 hobbyists

with a starting point. I will remove these prebuilt files from GitHub shortly.

I might also comment that there are other sources of pre-built images and

software (such as the RSX-11M Plus ones for the PiDP11 by Mark Matlock

and the Nankervis collection). I'll leave it to others to risk license

infringement.

Tony

[Bob Alexander]

I just tried that RSTS 10.1 image in my PiDP-11 (renaming simh-rsts10.ini to boot.ini) and got a bunch of start-up errors:

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Current  REALCONS build Aug 14 2019
boot.ini-1> 200~; SIMH command file to run RSTS/E V10.1 on an emulated
Unknown command
Disabling XQ
boot.ini-26> set rha disable
Command not allowed
boot.ini-27> set rhb disable
Command not allowed
TS0,(not attached, write enabled, SIMH format-(unlimited capacity
boot.ini-103> att dz 127.0.0.1:4123
Listening on port 127.0.0.1:4123
boot.ini-107> att lpt rsts-printer.txt
LPT: creating new file
Eth: opened OS device eth0
Booting RSTS/E V10.1 system disk DU0:
boot.ini-122> boot rq0201

Non-existent unit, PC: 000000 (HALT)
sim>

[Tony Nicholson]

[I accidently replied by e-mail to Bob when this is probably also useful to PiDP11 group members]

The version of SIMH pdp11 used by the PiDP11 has been modified and has enhancements to support the blinken-lights and maybe dropped support for some devices (I haven't checked).  The earlier messages are a puzzle without knowning what comands are being read.

Try using a

sim> do -v boot.ini

to get a verbose line-by-line trace for the commands.  You might have some stray characters in the command file or be missing the additional ones for the PiDP11 version.  Check it has

set xq disable
set cpu 11/70
set cpu 4m
set cpu fpp
set cpu idle
set cpu autoconfig
; connect to PiDP11 panel
set realcons host=localhost
set realcons panel=11/70
set realcons interval=1
set realcons connected

in it.

You can safely remove the set rha/rhb disable commands.  Also the disk is attached to the device rq0 - so use

boot rq0

to start it.

[Mike Markowski]

Can anyone please share a copy?  Many thanks!  - Mike

On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 5:41 AM Tony Nicholson <agn...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've just added a pre-built system image as well as sample SIMH pdp11 (and John Wilson's E11) configuration files

with a very brief description to my GitHub.  This was one I created about 12 years ago and includes both DECnet and LAT

support (but not the recent updates).  Get it by following the prebuilt link at

https://github.com/agn453/RS--

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[Tom Lake]

Here's the one I created from the install tape years ago:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gv64sze3ldbezk1/RSTS-E%20v%2010.1%20Install%20and%20INI%20files.zip?dl=0

[Mike Markowski]

Thank you very much, Tom! - Mike